Old EA Message Board

Does anybody have their Pluto II book kicking around?  I misplaced mine (I think it's in my storage locker) but in it, JWG went into the 3 stages (consensus, individuated, and spiritual) for each pluto placement in each house/sign.  Granted, he was applying them to composite chart placements, but I recall finding them very useful for just looking at a chart.

South node in capricorn/4th house - what would be the issues with regard to individuated and spiritual?

Ellen, or anyone else, do you have this book handy? if you do, do you have the time to post key indicators for pluto in cap/4th house for these 2 states?

I guess I should add synthesis for the actual placement of pluto in virgo in the 12th for Ellen's chart...

Quote from: bluesky on Aug 04, 2010, 12:28 PM
Does anybody have their Pluto II book kicking around?  I misplaced mine (I think it's in my storage locker) but in it, JWG went into the 3 stages (consensus, individuated, and spiritual) for each pluto placement in each house/sign.  Granted, he was applying them to composite chart placements, but I recall finding them very useful for just looking at a chart.

South node in capricorn/4th house - what would be the issues with regard to individuated and spiritual?

Ellen, or anyone else, do you have this book handy? if you do, do you have the time to post key indicators for pluto in cap/4th house for these 2 states?

I guess I should add synthesis for the actual placement of pluto in virgo in the 12th for Ellen's chart...

Hi bluesky,

I should be able to do it this weekend, but not sooner - lots of studying to do...

Ellen

thanks Ellen, looking forward to it.

Hi Bluesky, Ellen

Mine is handy so I'll sketch out a summary of what Jeffrey says, in approximated key principle form and adapted from a composite to individual viewpoint:

Pluto in 4th/Cancer
Correlates to creating a tightly stuctured reality through which to feel safe and secure as a reaction to previous lifetimes where circumstances caused great emotional upheavals, which has led to deep insecurity in the soul. Now in this life, as a reaction, there is a great need to create security, and emotional control and manipulation may be employed to create this security.

Creating an insular environment produces internalisation and emotional compression which then can become stifling causing emotional eruptions. The purpose of these emotional cycles is to allow a penetration of the past causes that are the emotional basis of the fears, leading to emotional self knowledge. The intention is to create inner security and until this is achieved emotional needs will be projected onto others.

Individuated
Wanting to be close at all times to others and situations that represent emotional safety produces an emotional claustrophobia that results in confrontations. Because of being in the individuated state, the nature of which is to rebel against external authority in order to individualise from the consensus, these confrontations relate to being overly controlled or manipulated, or being overly controlling or manipulative. This can occur even when the confrontation is with someone who the individual loves deeply. Feelings of having been rejected or disdained by the parents in some way will have created displaced emotions creating a strong need to "nest" as an adult, and to try and heal themselves within the safety of that nest. There will be unresolved anger, and a need for sexual healing, both of which may be acted out in relationships to create emotional and soul renewal.

Spiritual
Being in the spiritual stage these unresolved emotions represent impurities that must progressively surface into consciousness to allow movement forward in spiritual reality. This can create great turmoil caused by cycles of time which are calm, peaceful and spiritualised followed by times where the unresolved emotions are coming to the surface in varying degrees of intensity in quite a childlike way. This cycle would be especially stimulated by the relationship dynamics involved with those close to the individual. The unresolved emotions stem from deep insecurities, yet being in the spirititual stage the individual is in the process of progressively disengaging from all external dependencies. This can create a fear of not being wanted by others which may then be projected. Dealing with this paradox involves correctly interpreting why this is occurring and realising that it is a natural consequence in spiritual development. In essence these emotions surface because there is a transference between the external home and the inner home of God/dess. At the highest level this is learning to trust God/dess as the ultimate parent.

*********

Is this what you were after Bluesky? That's all I've got time for myself now, but it's a start .... you might want to add to this Ellen.

blessings Upasika

Hi Upasika, yes that's exactly it and thanks for doing that.  Although I realize now it's a lot to ask anyone to post a synopsis of those dynamics.  I should try to find that book.

But what you have posted here throws into prominence the juxtaposition of south node capricorn in the 4th house - to me, this is one of those crazy-making paradoxes.  Not to mention Ellen's pluto in virgo in the 12th house.

I hope I haven't thrown things off track here.

Bluesky, not sure if it's off track, or not. Given that skipped steps can cause a person to manifest situations, circumstances and behavior that represents an earlier stage or substage to their actual stage, when skipped steps are present it is necessary to examine the chart to see what the skipped steps are about as part of determining the EA stage. So we've been doing that, and as no chart factor stands alone from the rest of the chart, I guess we have to consider at the very least the whole karmic signature (Plu, PPP, Nodes & rulers), if not the whole chart, in doing that. So, it seems quite relevant to me.

Anyway, I think it's an excellent point you're making about the paraodoxes Ellen has with 4th/10th and 12th/6th themes packaged together in her Plu & Node house/sign placements. I think the general rule is: interpret the houses first as the most significant, then the signs, so that's a guide. But I too would be interested in what anyone thought about these paradoxes in Ellen's chart. Maybe it would add some additional valuable clues in fine tuning her substage.

A while back I asked Rad about paradoxical charts:

Question from: Linda
Is there a general rule of thumb that will make it easier to understand and interpret paradoxical charts, that is, a chart where house rulers are in the signs that are opposite to the natural rulers of those houses?  In the attached chart, Pluto in Leo is in the 11th house, SN Cancer in the 10th, and NN Capricorn in the 4th.

Rad's reply:
The general rule of thumb is to help the person understand what the nature and causes are of the underlying paradoxes within them, and then to help them determine a way of resolving those paradoxes. Simple example in the chart you have provided: a deep, natural fear of loss and abandonment which has happened in many lives through misapplication of trust which, in turn, has caused them to emotionally and psychologically isolate themselves from others as a way of compensating for that, which in turn has caused them to feel very alone within the world, which then causes a deep need to connect with and/or be in at least one committed relationship of like mind, yet not knowing how to get there or make that happen because of the fears of abandonment, etc. A paradox. The resolution in this cause is to choose another who is not only of like mind, but one is utterly self reliant at the POINT OF ATTRACTION. The one is self reliant , self empowered, etc will the not have a double agenda which could lead to a recreation of the past life dynamics leading to another misapplication of the trust which then leads to being used all over again.

******

The chart I had posted contained Moon in Scorpio as the facilitator of the SN in Cancer, and Saturn in Scorpio as the facilitator of the NN in Cap.  So I think Rad's answer had to do with that chart specifically.  However, I think the above could be helpful in understanding the many paradoxes in Ellen's chart.  

So I take it that we would need to understand Ellen's Moon/Taurus/8th (facilitator of NN) square Saturn/Aquarius/5th (facilitator of the SN).  These form part of a t-square with Neptune/Scorpio/2nd;  Saturn at the apex.  The other difficult aspects in the chart are Mars square Jupiter, Sun square Jupiter, and of course the skipped steps in Jupiter t-square the Nodes.  All other aspects in the chart are easy ones.

There would have been misapplications of trust in many past lives caused by a deep natural fear of loss and abandonment.  With Neptune ruling the 7th house, she could have suffered disillusionment around relationships in general.  I would say that her Jupiter/Aries/7th obviously does hold an answer in that she needs to learn to trust in a totally new way, to step forward in faith, to follow her instincts that will lead to new directions.  That in reaching out in faith towards others, she will not necessarily get emotional support from them (4th), and may suffer abandonment and betrayal (8th) again.  The resolution node SN/Cap/4th will allow her to develop and strengthen her emotional security base from within herself, and to cease attachment to authority figures (SN ruler Saturn).

Ellen's chart below:

Upasika and Linda, I am going to need some time to digest your comments.  I am just having a difficult time interpreting Ellen's chart.  I think the stages are a remarkable tool to deploy in reading any chart, but here the interpretation (for me, anyway) is compounded by not only the jupiter square but the mars conjunction to the south node.  So, is her planet conjunct the south node in fruition, was the lesson resisted, or is it both?? and she has her sun in Capricorn...it looks like there's a very heavy emphasis on the south node, which makes me wonder about that north node - what if it isn't accessed fully, or maybe even at all?  how does this set up the next life? but I'm taking on more than I can handle anyway, so that is just a musing.

Ellen, you've probably noticed that I haven't been commenting on what I believe your evolutionary stage is.  I don't think my synthesis abilities are nearly good enough yet to offer you a valuable assessment. I realize you are student of EA (you mentioned the DVDs) - you must have had a consultation at some point - if you did, what did they say about your evolutionary state? can you say?

Hi Bluesky,

The skipped steps (Jup square Nodes) does complicate things with Ellen's substage for me too, so you're not alone there. But I don't think there's any doubt the NN has been accessed as that's the very definition of skipped steps. When a chart has skipped steps it means that the future (NN) and past (SN) have become intertwined because in previous lifetimes the soul has not resolved the requirements (lessons) of the SN fully. Instead, not wanting to face all the SN issues for some reason, they have tried to take shortcuts with their evolutionary requirements and jump to the NN issues before the SN issues have been fully resolved. Likewise with the actual Pluto issues, these have been compromised by reaching for the PPP before the Pluto house/sign/aspect issues have all been resolved.

The essential nature of the skipped steps is shown by the house/sign/aspects of the planet that is squaring the nodes, which of course will include both Nodes and their house/sign/aspects as they are automatically included in the aspects of the skipped step planet (square to Nodes). (Not sure if it explicity includes Pluto and/or PPP as well ...?)

Like you, as I understand it the Sun conjunct the SN indicates a decision to have a major focus on the SN in this life in order to clear up it's outstanding issues. That leaves the remaining planets conjunct the SN (Mars and Mercury) as in a possible relive or fruition condition. As a general rule of thumb hard aspects to those planets from other areas of the chart will indicate a relive condition, and easy aspects a fruition condition. Mercury has easy aspects to Saturn, Neptune and Pluto, and hard to Uranus indicating it's mostly fruition but some relive concerning Uranus in Virgo/12th. Mars has easy aspects to Moon, Uranus, Neptune and Pluto and hard to Jupiter. Again mostly fruition except relive concerning Jupiter in Aries/7th. But because Jupiter is part of the skipped steps this means Mars is also part of the skipped steps so an additional layer of relive issues is indicated for Mars because of that. Plus Mars is the ruler of Jupiter so it's doubly involved in the skipped steps issues. So generalising we could say that while Mercury is only involved in a relatively small amount of relive, Mars is heavily involved despite being in a fruition condition in other areas at the same time. However, Ellen probably could add a lot of clarification to these rule of thumb interpretations from her own experience of her life.

That's my understanding, hope it makes sense.

Upasika

Quote from: bluesky on Aug 05, 2010, 09:58 AM
it looks like there's a very heavy emphasis on the south node, which makes me wonder about that north node - what if it isn't accessed fully, or maybe even at all? 

Hi Bluesky,

Since there are skipped steps in Ellen's chart, this means the NN area has been worked on to some degree in the past.  Here's a quote from the MB about the causes of skipped steps:

The causes of skipped steps are usually caused by traumas, yes. Buy they can also be caused by guilt about something and the consequent 'need' to avoid or deny that guilt, and the reasons for it. This itself implies 'judgments' that the Soul about itself that can be 'out-pictured' in reality it creates: the circumstances of the life and the people in it. This can have the affect of reinforcing the guilt caused by such judgments. It then becomes important to understand the two causes of guilt: either man made due to man made rules, rights and wrongs, moralities, and the like, or natural guilt that is rooted in violations of Natural Laws.  Avoidance and denial are the operative dynamics in skipped steps. So the EA astrologer has thus to play the role of 'detective' in order to understand what is causing that denial/ avoidance. And, again, those reasons will be contained within the symbols of the skipped step signature in all charts.

Skipped steps can also occur as a function of 'spiritual' teachings that the Soul is attempting to embrace that has specific doctrines about what 'spiritual life' is all about, and meant to be. All too often such man made doctrines attempt to inhibit or suppress natural human dynamics. This form of adherence to such doctrines can then cause 'skipped steps' relative to the natural human dynamics that are being repressed because of the nature of the spiritual doctrine being adhered to.

Hi Linda,

At last, a response to your post from awhile back.  I had some growth to do, I think, before I could really understand what you had written!

Hi Ellen,

Ellen said:  "If money were not a need in this lifetime, I would be more than happy to spend my life learning various subjects/disciplines/practices of interest.  I would perhaps be a perpetual, full time student of some sort.  Unfortunately, reality demands something else."

From the above feedback to Upasika, I think the "reality" you refer to is a pattern of past societal/parental conditioning (Saturn/the father) reflecting the "shoulds" of life.  Since Capricorn correlates to "judgment" and in the 4th therefore "self-judgment," the lesson of the skipped steps is to be truthful (Jupiter) to your self (Aries), stop judging yourself (Cap), and give yourself the freedom (Jupiter) to follow new paths and directions (Aries) such as becoming a student or teacher (Jupiter/Mercury) or seeking teacher/student relationships (Venus rules 9th). Fulfilling the skipped steps in this way will resolve the issue of self-image and emotional self-security (4th) that needs to be reformulated.

This response of mine is definitely stream of consciousness, but I think it offers some insight, so I'll leave it as is.  I agree with what you write above.  One of the things that I am realizing in my current classes is that I very much long for a teacher/student relationship, but in the sense of parent/child, I think (Jupiter squaring the 4th/10th axis) - the parent really being there for the child - really being there through the times when you really just don't understand and/or are afraid.  It is interesting to me that teachers frequently bemoan the idea of "holding the student's hand", and this has always frustrated me.  But I do understand it; there is the assumption being made that that basic need of having one's hand held (literally and metaphorically) has already happened; but the annoyance that seems to accompany this phrase makes no sense to me.  Clearly, a very basic need has not been met.  That does not mean that the teacher needs to meet it.  But, as I said, the annoyance makes no sense to me.  I would think there would be an understanding and awareness and consequent patience that resulted.  But this is rarely so.  

In my current situation, I have been aware of enormous levels of fear that I am feeling in going forward in this class - the very basic fears and insecurities that a child tends to feel when first going to school.  It is as though I never got to let myself in on this fear when I was young, and now I am able to.  And while I definitely don't have a parent to hold my hand, I did experience my hand being held - just when I needed it most (and it was the experience of this that awakened in me the awareness and understanding of how profoundly I needed this).  And now that I say this, I realize that my need for the teacher to be the parent is really a displaced emotional need.  

One last thing about my class that came into my awareness this a.m. is that the whole purpose of it is to try on the role of teacher.  That is the aspect of this program that I have REALLY resisted - seeing myself as guiding someone through something has seemed absolutely monumental to me and way beyond me.  But this morning I realized (after a week when I came very close to quitting) that growing into this "teacher" role is precisely what I'm needing to learn at this time.  And along with that, simply allowing myself to BE in the insecurity, to BE in the not knowing, to FEEL completely incompetent and clueless - that all of that is part of the process, ie, to get to the other side of perfectionism that leads to stopping before learning/completion.  And the other thing is that I know that I need to keep going and to not stop, even if I turn out to be the worst teacher or make mistake after mistake after mistake; the point is to LEARN how to be this, which can only come about by doing it.


With your Virgo Ascendant and ruler Mercury conjunct the South Node and Mars, here is the direction that you are seeking:  to become a student.  Since Mercury is conjunct Mars, you need to find the courage to pursue this new path or paths (teacher/student), and you will have a multiplicity of choices and teachers/disciplines to choose from (Jupiter/Aries 7th).

Yes.  I think perhaps I need to let go of the "need" to be a student (ie, a need for parenting by another - a teacher due to displaced emotions) and to step into the notion of being a teacher, and gradually move into that.

I wonder if the skipped steps could have something to do with a relationship to a spiritual teacher in the past?  Since Jupiter rules your 4th, perhaps you had actually been a teacher yourself and may have something to resolve along those lines.  

I don't know.  I do think it is in my nature to be authoritative about what I know.  And a lot of the last 10 years has been huge insecurity resulting from the realization that I really don't know what I think I know = fundamental confusion re: how I express myself in the world.  But of course part of this whole collapse is the result of never really pursuing anything fully, resulting in a fundamental lack of knowledge foundation from which to teach/be authoritative.

Saturn, ruler of Sun/Mars/Mercury/SN, is saying that "it is okay" to be yourself, to be creative, and that work can be a joyful expression too.  You need to liberate and transform the harsh Saturnian voice within yourself (4th) and allow yourself the freedom to study with a teacher or a discipline that you are naturally attracted to (Venus rules 9th).  

I wonder if Saturn is not also saying that I have to work really hard AT LEARNING to be myself, AT LEARNING to let go of the need to obey whatever the status quo happens to be - that there is a fundamental inhibition here (re: being myself) thus marking the place of disciplined effort despite restrictions/fears/rejections/ abandonment..... This is certainly how it has felt!  (Ah, you say this below...)

In my opinion, in early first stage spiritual, you are feeling small, and since you can still hear the old authoritarian voice "be something" (Saturn/Aquarius) you are struggling to liberate yourself through your own efforts.  The skipped steps have to do with the cardinal energies.  I'm going to be bold now and say that the skipped steps relate to the beginning of 1st stage spiritual! (Virgo Asc) - and not to an earlier stage.  That you are now taking full responsibility for the choices you make in the next step along the spiritual path.  That this responsibility now lies completely with you, and not an authority (Cap/father) or spiritual teacher to make that choice for you (Jupiter in the 7th).

I think that I am just at the VERY beginning stages of learning/understanding this, but I do feel that it is set in motion and that the likelihood of reversal is finally, perhaps after many, many lifetimes, is minimal, if at all.

You've simply stated your true desire:  

If money were not a need in this lifetime, I would be more than happy to spend my life learning various subjects/disciplines/practices of interest.  I would perhaps be a perpetual, full time student of some sort.  Unfortunately, reality demands something else.

Since material values are not going to be important in the 1st stage spiritual, you could find part-time work and see it "truthfully" for what it is:  working for survival purposes, which is enabling you the freedom to pursue your true desire to study various subjects or teach.  Interestingly, Mercury (student) rules your 6th house and also the MC (teacher).  Furthermore, with Neptune in the 2nd house, you can rely on the universe to supply your material needs.

Hmmm.... Interesting.... Perhaps some need here of letting go of values (material) that are not mine (which, while I was not living a materialistic life outwardly speaking, I would say that I never fully embraced my own values, believing them to be unrealisitic...) and letting the universe flow more...  This is something that I am beginning to feel - to get a very initial sense of, and the corresponding growth need to trust it.

The Moon/Taurus (facilitator of the NN) is necessarily placed in the 8th house so as to enable you to metamorphose the old vision, the old self-concept.  

Again interesting... really insightful...

This will allow you to move forward, to embrace the NN/Cancer (to reformulate your self-image and express it in the world).

I do think that this is what this time is about that I am going through - "reformulating my self-image" so that, down the road (after Pluto finishes up with my Sun?  When it hits my SN?... When I begin a new progressed lunation cycle?  All of the above?....)  and why my experience in the world is so bizarre - such a basic inability to connect with people because the old ways of relating just don't work, nor does relating to the old kinds of people...  I do hope "this time, too, shall pass" and I find myself relating easily with people and people feeling at ease around me... so NOT the case right now in my daily life...

You will be more fluid and empathetic and forgiving of your own self, especially where social role is concerned.

I absolutely agree with this.
 
The Cancer 10th caring and nurturing social role will work perfectly with your 1st stage spiritual status.

That would be just lovely!

Thanks for allowing me and others to practise.  Hope the above is not too far-fetched and rings true!  I'm enjoying this more and more, it's exciting, especially since I feel we're getting quite close to discovering your true evolutionary condition.

Upasika and Linda, that does help a lot - I had forgotten about a planet squaring the nodes indicating that the person has already attempted to access the north node.

And what Upasika mentioned about aspects to those planets on the south nodes, hard or easy, was news to me.  That's a great piece of information to put in my EA tool kit.

Thank you both!

Quote from: Upasika on Aug 04, 2010, 05:53 PM
Hi Bluesky, Ellen

Mine is handy so I'll sketch out a summary of what Jeffrey says, in approximated key principle form and adapted from a composite to individual viewpoint:

Pluto in 4th/Cancer
Correlates to creating a tightly stuctured reality through which to feel safe and secure as a reaction to previous lifetimes where circumstances caused great emotional upheavals, which has led to deep insecurity in the soul. Now in this life, as a reaction, there is a great need to create security, and emotional control and manipulation may be employed to create this security.

Creating an insular environment produces internalisation and emotional compression which then can become stifling causing emotional eruptions. The purpose of these emotional cycles is to allow a penetration of the past causes that are the emotional basis of the fears, leading to emotional self knowledge. The intention is to create inner security and until this is achieved emotional needs will be projected onto others.

Individuated
Wanting to be close at all times to others and situations that represent emotional safety produces an emotional claustrophobia that results in confrontations. Because of being in the individuated state, the nature of which is to rebel against external authority in order to individualise from the consensus, these confrontations relate to being overly controlled or manipulated, or being overly controlling or manipulative. This can occur even when the confrontation is with someone who the individual loves deeply. Feelings of having been rejected or disdained by the parents in some way will have created displaced emotions creating a strong need to "nest" as an adult, and to try and heal themselves within the safety of that nest. There will be unresolved anger, and a need for sexual healing, both of which may be acted out in relationships to create emotional and soul renewal.

Spiritual
Being in the spiritual stage these unresolved emotions represent impurities that must progressively surface into consciousness to allow movement forward in spiritual reality. This can create great turmoil caused by cycles of time which are calm, peaceful and spiritualised followed by times where the unresolved emotions are coming to the surface in varying degrees of intensity in quite a childlike way. This cycle would be especially stimulated by the relationship dynamics involved with those close to the individual. The unresolved emotions stem from deep insecurities, yet being in the spirititual stage the individual is in the process of progressively disengaging from all external dependencies. This can create a fear of not being wanted by others which may then be projected. Dealing with this paradox involves correctly interpreting why this is occurring and realising that it is a natural consequence in spiritual development. In essence these emotions surface because there is a transference between the external home and the inner home of God/dess. At the highest level this is learning to trust God/dess as the ultimate parent.

*********

Is this what you were after Bluesky? That's all I've got time for myself now, but it's a start .... you might want to add to this Ellen.

blessings Upasika

Hi Upasika,

Thanks for doing this.  What you write seems right on from my reading of the chapter.  I would only add the insecurity (especially social) that can come about due to the gender switch signature.

When I read through this chapter, it seemed to me that in my previous relationships, the individuated description seemed to apply.  I am not now in a relationship and have not been in one for some time, but I can say that the description of the spiritual stage through this house feels right to me in terms of what I'm shooting for - within myself and also choosing a partner with whom to do this work... In terms of experiencing unresolved emotions as impurities, I have definitely felt this to be so.

Quote from: bluesky on Aug 05, 2010, 09:58 AM
Upasika and Linda, I am going to need some time to digest your comments.  I am just having a difficult time interpreting Ellen's chart.  I think the stages are a remarkable tool to deploy in reading any chart, but here the interpretation (for me, anyway) is compounded by not only the jupiter square but the mars conjunction to the south node.  So, is her planet conjunct the south node in fruition, was the lesson resisted, or is it both?? and she has her sun in Capricorn...it looks like there's a very heavy emphasis on the south node, which makes me wonder about that north node - what if it isn't accessed fully, or maybe even at all?  how does this set up the next life? but I'm taking on more than I can handle anyway, so that is just a musing.

Ellen, you've probably noticed that I haven't been commenting on what I believe your evolutionary stage is.  I don't think my synthesis abilities are nearly good enough yet to offer you a valuable assessment. I realize you are student of EA (you mentioned the DVDs) - you must have had a consultation at some point - if you did, what did they say about your evolutionary state? can you say?

Hi bluesky,

I've been told I'm 1st spiritual.  I've also had an EA astrologer agree with me that my life, as it has played out, definitely looks more like individuated.  My own feeling, at this time, is that the individuated appearance has been the result of skipped steps and hiding signatures masking the 1st spiritual nature of my soul.  My feeling is that I am just barely in the 1st spiritual stage - just have a toe in is the best way I can describe my sense of it.  I continue to be open to discussion/debate about this - for fine tuning my own stage, but also because I think scouring this is a valuable exercise re: learning the EA stages - developing a sense for them.

Hi All,

I've had quite a couple of weeks.  I'll try to respond some more this weekend, but I'm behind in my studies, so I need to focus on catching up on that.....  Thank you all so much for pursuing this.

Peace,
Ellen