Ellen's Ea state practice thread

[bluesky]

Ellen,

I think what you bring up is very interesting - that you feel as if the final stage of individuated would be repetition for you. If you had done it before and you are done with it, then it could seem pointless - "what for?"

I have to go and look at your chart (can't see it from here) - is pluto and/or mars retrograde?

It looks like pluto, uranus, and mercury are all retrograde.

[Upasika]

Very interesting what you've said Ellen, and it's this kind of elucidation that really helps pinpoint EA stage. A few thoughts popped up regarding your reply, but I'll wait till you've responded to my previous post before discussing them. Upasika

[Elen]

Ellen,

I think what you bring up is very interesting - that you feel as if the final stage of individuated would be repetition for you. If you had done it before and you are done with it, then it could seem pointless - "what for?"
Yes, good point re: "what for?"  For me it feels like there is familiarity with 3rd ind, and thus a pull there, but that in this life there is something else for me to do and that if I go along with the pull, I'll be thwarting the evolutionary intent of this lifetime.  Of course it could be that I'm wrong.  That in fact it IS about 3rd ind and that the "resistance" to the pull has to do with hard to pin down self-worth issues.  But I don't think this is the case.  I definitely DO struggle with self-esteem issues.  But to me those seem to be a direct result of 1) being gay and 2) what I'm used to (3rd Ind) not making sense and thus not having a clear, secure path to follow in this life...


I have to go and look at your chart (can't see it from here) - is pluto and/or mars retrograde?

It looks like pluto, uranus, and mercury are all retrograde.
Hi Bluesky,

This is correct.  Pluto/Uranus/Mercury all retrograde.

Ellen

[Elen]

Hi Upasika,

Here are my responses.  There is quite a rambunctious puppy in the house, so if my thoughts seem a little scrambled, that is partly why.  They're also scrambled simply because these are such tricky things to try to articulate.  I put my answers in quotation marks.  I should have thought to capitalize to make my answers easier to see, but I didn't think of that at the time.  Hopefully next time I do this cut/paste from email, I will remember that.

Anyway, thank you a million for your analysis.  I hope my replies make sense and I will be interested to hear what you and others have to say.

Peace,
Ellen

PS looks like I have to do this in a couple of posts.






Hi Ellen,

I've been pretty sick for the last while, but ocasionally pop onto the board for a quick read. And I've always been interested in us completing your thread here so its great it hasn't just faded out as it looked it might. Very interesting stuff from everyone, and your responses to them. I felt to add to what the others have said with some additional comments, but dont have enough energy available to analyse things comprehensively or put them in a cohesive order, its more a bunch of ideas....

Looking at your chart you seem to have a lot of family stuff going on (SN in 4th conj Sun, Mars & Merc), and a gender switch in recent lives. Mars in Capricorn indicates a lot of repression of your basic instincts in past lives from too much desire (or forced need) to subjugate yourself to authorities and please/satisfy others, at the expense of yourself.

"I think probably both desire and need.  Desire from the perspective of a personality that seems to be used to a master/apprentice-type relationship (this is something I have been starting to tune into lately as I work through my confusion as to how this world works, ie, definitely not master/apprentice).  Need from the perspective of the hiding signatures in the chart, probably due to the matriarchal connection you mention later on in your post."

As well as being involved through it's conj to the SN, Mars also rules your skipped steps (Jupiter) indicating this has contributed majorly to those skipped steps, and family stuff may be central to what the skipped steps are actually about.

"Relying too much on family?  And this perhaps due to insecurities that result from the hiding signatures in the chart - having to follow the rules of the family to ensure safety...?  This would suggest a suppression of the Mars need to step into the unknown to discover "Who am I?  Or perhap Mars being channeled more into a strategy/tactics of survival emphasis that Mars in Cap might suggest.  In the 4th, the focus would be emotional/ego survival."  So this need (discovering "Who am I" then possibly becomes pronounced with Jupiter in Aries...?  And Jupiter itself ruling the 4th...  And all this coming about through relationship - the fundamental realization that I'm gay (Jupiter in a waning inconjunct to Uranus) and the very basic needs that arise from that and the consequent upheaval that results from this in terms of my basic security re: family - the comfort of being hidden and safe...  With the Moon in the 8th, emotion/ego are going to be challenged to grow beyond comfort levels.  Then Saturn/Aq/5th sq. Moon - their seems to be an endless and constantly confirming trail here..."

In itself Jupiter in Aries is a strong and expanded sense of self/individuality that could easily be very self centered. It seems to me then that "individualising" itself might be your skipped step, brought about by all the pandering to/acquiesing of authorities instead of following your truth in your relationships (Jup in 7th). With Saturn (ruler of your SN) in the 5th, the "authorities" could well have been your father (at the time) in past lives, and certainly in this life it sounds like your current father represents an authority you have had to submit to a great deal.

"Yes. I agree with this - especially with regard for this life.  I definitely feel that there are past life connections with my family, but I don't have enough sense of this to comment from an inner awareness/knowing about the past life dynamics, though I am just starting, I think, to get some impressions (since they're so new, I will hold off on sharing any of them until I feel more sure/certain about them).  There is definitely the dynamic of not being recognized and resistance to "seeing" me (and this is simply a family dynamic, ie not specific to me).  But I definitely feel that this is a dynamic I am cueing into in this lifetime and really beginning to see the limitations of it and wanted to step out of that dynamic and agreement.  So, correspondingly, I am seeing the value/importance of individualizing in and of itself but also, and for me I think especially, in terms of attracting the right relationships..."

Aquarius via Uranus rules the individualising process in general and you have Saturn in Aquarius indicating a possible blockage with the process,

"And also Pluto in the 12th conjunct Uranus so enormous fear of stepping off into the unknown, which is what the individualizing process is for me."

and also in finding your real creative self expression (Saturn in 5th), which will not be resolved by reliance on outside help, it must be resolved by the efforts you make with "your own hands" ... this is the internalising nature of Saturn's pain & limitation, and sense of inadequacy (and Saturn = "hard work") ... but then that growth will be well and truly yours and the mastery attained will never be dependent on anyone else for it's actualisation or sustainment.

"An interesting note about this with regard to Saturn/Moon sq that I am just discovering - that I have known intellectually but haven't gotten in a meaningful way - and that is that part of the process involves finding a sense of comfort in the discomfort/insecurity.  In other words, understanding that that is part of the process and a necessary step.  I'm not talking here of being a masochist.  But of the natural ebbs and flows of one's development, and that at times you just don't know.  This probably ties into the Virgoan perfectionist difficulties - so finding comfort/security at those times when I'm feeling less than apt at what I'm doing, thus allowing me to get to the other side of 'that growth [being] well and truly [mine]."

Saturn in Aquarius also indicates a source of trauma and being in the 5th possibly points to father issues again. While in your childhood you loved your time with your family, this was maybe because you have invested in family situations a great deal in the past (4th house SN and other energies) at the expense of your individuality, and you just orientated there again starting out this life. But your need is to move away from that for good and establish yourself on your own terms (NN 10th, Saturn in Aquarius in 5th, Jupiter in Aries square 4th), but you've always resisted this => leading to skipped steps.

"I think this is right on."

Mars in Capricorn shows deep buried resentment and anger at authorities and given its conj to SN and square to Jupiter could almost alone account for most of your anger in this life, whether you were in the individualising stage or not, especially as that aspect looks to be a relive one. But my feeling is that you are still in the 3rd individualising stage and that some of the anger you have felt in this life is the last echoes of 2nd individated anger being exhausted from your system. It's been especially potent in this life because of the skipped steps being brought into full focus this life creating a great confusion and frustration within - that you have also projected without. But now it seems its burnt itself out a lot and you are coming to feel yourself as relatively more calm with a desire to channel the anger constructively into positive expressions.

"I agree with everything here except, per my prior post, I'm not so sure about 3rd ind."

Your gayness to me is possibly just a natural condition due to the recent gender switch not being fully integrated yet,

"I think it has also been an instigator of evolutionary development.  I believe strongly that had I not been gay in this lifetime, I would not have questioned/rebelled against the family and social norms in which I was raised.  Or if I did question them, I would not have pursued the answers to those questions as I have done in this lifetime.  So I think it - my being gay - has been a huge evolutionary catalyst."

because of all the above acting as a confusing distraction to knowing yourself better: just navigating family and society issues concerning it to arrive at the realisation yourself about it has taken a great chunk of your life.

"Yes.  And forced a lot of development.  The whole issue with career, though, does seem to have come about due to the energy put into this whole aspect/dynamic of my life.  So the NN in Cancer in the 10th could simply be indicating the need to be comfortable with/secure within myself within the context of society - regardless of my difference.  Career actualization may not come about... but the stage will be set."

Also Mars in Capricorn will readily adopt a double life as a defense strategy so you have no doubt had to maintain two distinct sets of people in your life - those you trust and those you don't,

Mars is also in a waxing sextile to Neptune.  So I would say that there has always been HUGE confusion for me with regard to the issue of trust (Neptune in Scorpio).  I would say that I am only now getting to the point of recognizing the difference between trustworthy and untrustworthy.  This MB community is helping me a ton with that in terms of learning to discriminate.  When you've never experienced trustworthiness, it is hard to know the difference..."

feeding those you don't all sorts of red herrings as to your actual sexual orientation, even if they weren't actually intrinsically judgemental of gay people. This would have further exacberated your difficulty in resting easy in your own skin re this issue, naturally and at all times.

"This analysis is right on.  Though I do not know of anyone in my childhood who, at the time, was not intrinsically judgemental of gay people.  That was simply the culture.  Fortunately, many of us have grown in this regard."

With Pluto in the 12th, your interest in the spiritual is not new. Pluto's SN is in the 4th indicating your spiritual interest may have originated out of (or as a reaction to) family situations,

"Absolutely.  So family dynamics themselves have also been a huge evolutionary catalyst for me in this lifetime."

and it's ruler, Saturn, is in Aquarius in the 5th conj the SN of Neptune and squaring Moon and Neptune. Looks like you have also been involved with the matriarchy as an authority within it, but had to hide this side of yourself in more recent lives,

"This is something that I am starting to feel is true, though it is coming as a surprise.  I think I always felt rejected in some way by the matriarchy, perhaps because for many lifetimes I adopted patriarchal culture as a means of security and perhaps even came to believe in the patriarchy....?"

basically giving away your truth and living according to patriarchal falsehoods. This has then brought you in this life to actually choose a very conventional and authoritan family to be born into, a complete contradiction to what you sense in your being, with a resulting confusion regarding just who you actually were. And this also indicates that your spiritual interest has been arrested for quite a long time (reflected by Pluto in your 12th opp Chiron in 6th).

"Very insightful."

But now, due to the very strong focus on your skipped steps in this life (Jup square Nodes/Mars/Sun - with the Sun also square Ascendant, assuming your time is good) it's as if you are awakening from a slumber and finally tuning into yourself on your own terms. And as you do so your interest in spirituality is also awakening again.

"I think this 'feels' right in terms of an explanation/analysis."

It may take more time for your life to unfold to really see the significance of your spiritual interest, as skipped steps and hiding signatures can obscure the essential reality so much. But for now it seems to me you may likely be a 3rd individuated soul who is finding their own feet after a very long time of denial and repression, and with it a renewed interest in the Divine. Everything you say to me points to the clear need to identify some core talents you have that you can use to develop your sense of self further

"I am not sure the reason for the need to find something is for the purpose of developing myself further.  I think it has more to do with simple survival needs and the desire to occupy myself in my life with something that I enjoy and that I feel offers something useful to others - helps people in some practical way.  If money were not a need in this lifetime, I would be more than happy to spend my life learning various subjects/disciplines/practices of interest.  I would perhaps be a perpetual, full time student of some sort.  Unfortunately, reality demands something else.  So then the question becomes, OK, I like this and this in terms of learning and growth for myself, but do I like it in terms of work/service to others...?  Is it really something that I can offer others and would I enjoy spending my days doing it?  To me this whole dilemma, when I really look at it, seems to be a struggle with ego and that part of what is happening is a recognition of this and the beginning of questioning this and the beginning of realizing I need to orient differently.  Another way of saying this is: I think I am the doer.  I am needing to learn/understand that I am not."

(reflected for example by Venus, ruler of 2nd being in 5th), which can also serve the purpose of integrating you into society on your own terms, and which will also stabilise you (your sense of identity) at a very core level. Even if these talents are in the "spiritual" field my feeling is that your need is to complete the individualising process,

Yes, to the extent that completing the individualizing process means feeling emotionally safe/secure within myself despite my difference and being able to proceed with inner strength/authority, I agree."

and you would simply be doing that in following those spiritual interests (Uranus in the 12th).

"I am not sure.  And I am not sure if I am understanding fully the subtleties of the individualizing process.  For me, the spiritual path does not feel like a way to discover my uniqueness or difference.  It is rather a way for me to discover my connection with God/dess and to begin to engage in regular practice that strengthens that connection."

Your Pluto in the 12th represents the need to take the plunge in doing this. Chiron in the 6th is opp Pluto and Uranus in the 12th, indicating much resistance to doing so for fear of more persecution, but it's also trining Nep and NN and the likelihood that any steps you take in this direction, no matter how small, will work out much better than your fears would have you believe.

"Interesting insight.  I would say that generally speaking my fears have not played out.  That while people have not necessarily liked my direction, they have surprisingly and somewhat magically simply allowed me to proceed, with some bumps of course..."

The bottom line however is your 4th house (Jup applying to SN in 4th), so that's where you must keep a constant focus in order to keep everything moving progressively forward - processing feelings and emotions by yourself, being present to and honoring your shifting emotional realities as they occur, learning to love and appreciate yourself whether others do or not, being vulnerable without concern for how that makes you look in the eyes of others or whether they will exploit you.

"Yes.  This is EXACTLY right."

And finding something meaningful you can do in the community you live in/society for work - in your case as a (provisional) 3rd individuated this would have to not only be of value to those for whom you are doing it, it needs to be something you genuinely enjoy to do yourself.

"This is an interesting statement.  And my own statements about wanting to enjoy what I do certainly suggest 3rd Ind.  But I cannot help but wonder if that is residual and the fact that it hasn't worked out that way is in fact a "message" to move on.  Indeed, I am beginning to feel weary of this quest for what I enjoy.  It is as though I have always believed that I am somehow a failure if I don't find that.  And now I am beginning to 'wake up' to the reality that it means no such thing.  It is simply an opportunity to begin to ask the question, ok, this is who I am and there is nothing wrong with that, so what is it that you wish to do through me?"

I know you feel this is a huge challenge ! But it always is for everyone in 3rd individuated a) identifying what they love to do, and b) finding ways to do that for a living.

"Reading this, it is as though I am realizing that that in fact has been the problem.  That HAS been what I've been trying to figure out.  But it's as though it's not really relevant anymore.  Somehow the focus seems wrong."

This is THE challenge (in one sense) of 3rd individuated as I understand it, it is the actual process of doing this that contributes to the growth to the soul at this EA stage. And from my observation, it often seems just a huge dream that what a 3rd individuated soul may love to do, is quietly very passionate about, could ever be their full time job that they make a living out of. Well, with Virgo ASC, and Chiron in the 6th opp Pluto/Uranus you are well eqipped to take that "dream" or passion, and via small steps, one after the other, start anyway, even if on a hobby basis.

"One thing I would note here is that Pluto/12th indicates endless dreams/illusions that you follow passionately, all the while knowing there is something missing.  I have certainly had many ideas and directions (and mostly just in the imagination/thinking phases, ie, never really making it to reality) that I have felt passionate about, but there has definitely been the sense of emptiness, that something is missing - that I'm just fooling myself and everyone else.  Makes me think that part of the intention of this lifetime is in fact to exhaust this 3rd ind focus - to be forced to search for a different focus/meaning/orientation.  My current pursuit (personal trainer) seems less about a dream I have for me, and more about a desire to do this piece of work, to see what is there and finally reconcile it, similar to what I did when I revisited the Catholic Church.  It's about revisiting my past so that I can really see the dynamics of this world in which I was immersed as a child and really understand them and release them.  But it's also a desire to learn this piece that I am - to acknowledge it - and to set myself up in some way.  It feels 'right' to do this, but it is not about any idea I have of being happy/fulfilled for myself.  If God wants to use me, well then I'll be available.  It is very difficult though.  I almost dropped out this week.  But somehow it seems that I should continue even though I have no clue how it will work out.  There is a part of me that trusts that if God can use me/my skills/who I am, then that is enough.  Though there is still another part of me that would rather really really enjoy what I'm doing - to feel that I've really found the right thing."

[Linda]

Ellen,

Am reading through your feedback now.  Capitalization is very difficult to read.  Rather, I would suggest you try "bold" or another colour?  

Once you've copied your message from email onto a new post here, all you need to do is highlight your paragraph and choose "bold" or some other distinguishing feature.  Please let me know if you need any assistance.  Thanks!

I'm attaching your chart again for ease of reference.

[Elen]

Ellen,

Am reading through your feedback now.  Capitalization is very difficult to read.  Rather, I would suggest you try "bold" or another colour?  

Once you've copied your message from email onto a new post here, all you need to do is highlight your paragraph and choose "bold" or some other distinguishing feature.  Please let me know if you need any assistance.  Thanks!

I'm attaching your chart again for ease of reference.

Hi Linda,

Thanks for the advice. In the past I recall not being able to highlight specific text beyond a certain point (the same point as when you can't see what you're typing anymore when you're actually typing).  Once I got past that point, if I remember correctly, I could only highlight everything or nothing...  I definitely seem not to have the knack for these important details...  Anything you can share would be appreciated.

Ellen

[Linda]

Try this:

Start highlighting your text by clicking the mouse at the beginning of the paragraph. Press the Shift key on your keyboard and, while keeping it down, press the Right Arrow on your keyboard.  This will start the Highlighting process (note:  the down arrow key can be used too).   Keep tapping the Right Arrow key until you've highlighted what you need.  This may or may not take you beyond that point you mentioned at the bottom of your screen.  Once highlighted, then press Bold on the menu.

Alternatively, keep highlighting the portion of text that you can see on the screen and Bold it.

Are you aware of the Scroll Bar on the right hand side of your screen?






Please let me know if this has solved the problem.

[Upasika]

Really enjoyed your response Ellen. I'll have time to get back to you tomorrow.

[Elen]

Try this:

Start highlighting your text by clicking the mouse at the beginning of the paragraph. Press the Shift key on your keyboard and, while keeping it down, press the Right Arrow on your keyboard.  This will start the Highlighting process (note:  the down arrow key can be used too).   Keep tapping the Right Arrow key until you've highlighted what you need.  This may or may not take you beyond that point you mentioned at the bottom of your screen.  Once highlighted, then press Bold on the menu.

Alternatively, keep highlighting the portion of text that you can see on the screen and Bold it.

Are you aware of the Scroll Bar on the right hand side of your screen?






Please let me know if this has solved the problem.

Hi Linda,
Thanks a million.  I'll try the shift key and right arrow.  I am aware of the scroll bar.  The issue, as I remmeber it, had to do with once getting to the point I wanted to highlight, not being able to because the screen would jump back up and not allow me to stay at that point......  grrrr!

Ellen

[Linda]

Hi Ellen,

Ellen said:  "If money were not a need in this lifetime, I would be more than happy to spend my life learning various subjects/disciplines/practices of interest.  I would perhaps be a perpetual, full time student of some sort.  Unfortunately, reality demands something else."

From the above feedback to Upasika, I think the "reality" you refer to is a pattern of past societal/parental conditioning (Saturn/the father) reflecting the "shoulds" of life.  Since Capricorn correlates to "judgment" and in the 4th therefore "self-judgment," the lesson of the skipped steps is to be truthful (Jupiter) to your self (Aries), stop judging yourself (Cap), and give yourself the freedom (Jupiter) to follow new paths and directions (Aries) such as becoming a student or teacher (Jupiter/Mercury) or seeking teacher/student relationships (Venus rules 9th). Fulfilling the skipped steps in this way will resolve the issue of self-image and emotional self-security (4th) that needs to be reformulated.

With your Virgo Ascendant and ruler Mercury conjunct the South Node and Mars, here is the direction that you are seeking:  to become a student.  Since Mercury is conjunct Mars, you need to find the courage to pursue this new path or paths (teacher/student), and you will have a multiplicity of choices and teachers/disciplines to choose from (Jupiter/Aries 7th).

I wonder if the skipped steps could have something to do with a relationship to a spiritual teacher in the past?  Since Jupiter rules your 4th, perhaps you had actually been a teacher yourself and may have something to resolve along those lines.  Saturn, ruler of Sun/Mars/Mercury/SN, is saying that "it is okay" to be yourself, to be creative, and that work can be a joyful expression too.  You need to liberate and transform the harsh Saturnian voice within yourself (4th) and allow yourself the freedom to study with a teacher or a discipline that you are naturally attracted to (Venus rules 9th).  

In my opinion, in early first stage spiritual, you are feeling small, and since you can still hear the old authoritarian voice "be something" (Saturn/Aquarius) you are struggling to liberate yourself through your own efforts.  The skipped steps have to do with the cardinal energies.  I'm going to be bold now and say that the skipped steps relate to the beginning of 1st stage spiritual! (Virgo Asc) - and not to an earlier stage.  That you are now taking full responsibility for the choices you make in the next step along the spiritual path.  That this responsibility now lies completely with you, and not an authority (Cap/father) or spiritual teacher to make that choice for you (Jupiter in the 7th).

You've simply stated your true desire:  

"If money were not a need in this lifetime, I would be more than happy to spend my life learning various subjects/disciplines/practices of interest.  I would perhaps be a perpetual, full time student of some sort.  Unfortunately, reality demands something else."

Since material values are not going to be important in the 1st stage spiritual, you could find part-time work and see it "truthfully" for what it is:  working for survival purposes, which is enabling you the freedom to pursue your true desire to study various subjects or teach.  Interestingly, Mercury (student) rules your 6th house and also the MC (teacher).  Furthermore, with Neptune in the 2nd house, you can rely on the universe to supply your material needs.

The Moon/Taurus (facilitator of the NN) is necessarily placed in the 8th house so as to enable you to metamorphose the old vision, the old self-concept.  This will allow you to move forward, to embrace the NN/Cancer (to reformulate your self-image and express it in the world).  You will be more fluid and empathetic and forgiving of your own self, especially where social role is concerned.  The Cancer 10th caring and nurturing social role will work perfectly with your 1st stage spiritual status.

Thanks for allowing me and others to practise.  Hope the above is not too far-fetched and rings true!  I'm enjoying this more and more, it's exciting, especially since I feel we're getting quite close to discovering your true evolutionary condition.

[ari moshe]

Hi Ellen,

I want to add to what Linda was saying,

"If money were not a need in this lifetime, I would be more than happy to spend my life learning various subjects/disciplines/practices of interest.  I would perhaps be a perpetual, full time student of some sort.  Unfortunately, reality demands something else."

To me that statement supports the possibility that you are first stage spiritual even more.

In the end there is not a conflict between your spiritual path and making money. That's the actual reality.
The key is finding work that will allow you to devote yourself to the appropriate forms of service. Your mind's scope of possibilities are narrow based on lifetimes of self sacrifice, persecution for being who you were, and immense emotional repression. However you have so much to offer. The key seems to be to not hold back, but to show up and start ea counseling/leading groups/working with women/writing etc... whatever the forms are (all Jupiter in Aries square nodes, Cancer in 10, with Moon in 8 opposing Neptune 2 with Taurus/Scorpio- as facilitator for Pluto polarity in Pisces in the 6) You will be supported financially by way of your service- the key is to stick to the truth of your being and be willing to let go of the way you think it should look. What can you offer this world? There are many answers here.
Ari Moshe

[Upasika]

Hi Ellen,

Well we seem to be narrowing things down a lot more. After reading and contemplating on your last post I also thought that you may not be 3rd individuted (although I haven't ruled it out outright). But on the face of it, it certainly seems quite possible you're cusp 3rd indiv/1st spiritual or 1st spiritual. With the analysis of your chart that we and you have all done, the basic principles of it, and the skipped steps etc, have been outlined showing your general nature and life situation, and it's seems it's a matter of fine tuning now.

At the end of the day it all really depends on how accurate your own assessment of where you're coming from is. Especially regarding spiritual urges, interests and motivations. (I do feel you've been really open, up front on everything, fully sharing and as factual as possible ... so it's not in that sense that I'm saying this).

I'm no expert at all on EA stages, but it seems one thing is clear -  and that is that you actually do need to develop your skills and talents, regardless of your stage. This is something Ari, Linda and I have stressed, and you also have said you feel thats the thing that's obvious to you as the current step. (And I also thought like Linda & Ari - writing/student/teacher??). But the issue it seems is motivation. Not feeling any interest in "moving society along", as you've "been there/done that". Maybe it was covered in previous posts that aren't available now, but I didn't ever recall anything that you've done that particularly stood out as representing that (unless you were referring to your nursing?, but that still didn't strike me as particularly 3rd individual orientated). Anyway, as I understand it, the effect a person has on society in 3rd individuated is not really a primary motivation. The primary motivation is fruiting one's individuality, developing one's potential as much as one can in a positive way, and the beneficial effect this has on society is almost a side effect. To me a 3rd individual person has cut the bonds with society once and for all, they know they're "doing their thing" but because they also realise that everyone makes up society they accept that they will end up contributing to it via their personal efforts anyway ... it's just they've seen through reacting to it, and instead just get on with things in a positive fashion.

However you seem pretty resolute that you've done all you can for yourself on your own, and now feel "you" as the doer is itself your greatest limitation. As Linda and Ari have noted, this implies the exhaustion of 3rd individuated desires has occurred. And I agree (assuming you've assessed it accurately). But to me it doesn't automatically mean you're in 1st spiritual. Her post is gone so I can't quote it directly, but from memory I think Adina pointed out that this realisation occurs as 3rd individuated is nearing the end, and opens the soul up to what the possibilities might be beyond this ... and the real spiritual search starts (or something similar to this). Not gathering information, knowledge etc, as this may already have been taking place to a greater or lesser degree, but a real gut wrenching quest - similar to the move from 3rd consensus to 1st individuated (so movingly described by Steve a while ago) - the long process of surrendering oneself is akin to consciously dying, and that's not at all natural, let alone attractive, unless it really is the actual next step. Adina was saying it's this very dilemna that creates the internal upheavel that will propel the soul into the next stage, 1st spiritual.

So to me, it's a question of just how far along this track you actually are? Are you at the very end of 3rd individuated, in a life where facing this dilemna is relatively new? or in the middle of the transition (with lots of alternating pulls) and therefore on the cusp of 3rd individuated/1st spiritual? or actually into the relative clarity of 1st spiritual itself ... that there really is no other reality, and therefore no other question/option ... than the journey of surrendering all desires as they arise to the best of your ability except the single desire to merge with whatever it is (however it's called - God/dess, Source, Divine etc), that permeates everything everywhere. In other words, as Linda asked you ... is this really your reality?

With the skipped steps, and nodal rulers in hard aspect to Neptune, and Plu/Ura in 12th ... for me it's not clear whether you're ending up 3rd individuated, on the cusp, or you're into beginning of 1st spiritual.

Also as Linda pointed out, you've got a few grunty transits going on at the moment: transitting Pluto hitting both natal Sun and Moon (and soon coming up to hit natal Saturn, then the SN), transiting Neptune on 6th house cusp, transiting nodal axis on your natal nodal axis and hitting natal Jupiter, Chiron & Uranus, as well as transiting Mars, Jupiter & Saturn all hitting natal Neptune. No wonder things are cooking, and maybe its a bit confusing right now too? But what do you yourself feel Ellen - do you feel clearly you're into 1st spiritual proper?

Upasika

[Elen]

Hi Ellen,

Well we seem to be narrowing things down a lot more. After reading and contemplating on your last post I also thought that you may not be 3rd individuted (although I haven't ruled it out outright). But on the face of it, it certainly seems quite possible you're cusp 3rd indiv/1st spiritual or 1st spiritual. With the analysis of your chart that we and you have all done, the basic principles of it, and the skipped steps etc, have been outlined showing your general nature and life situation, and it's seems it's a matter of fine tuning now.

At the end of the day it all really depends on how accurate your own assessment of where you're coming from is. Especially regarding spiritual urges, interests and motivations. (I do feel you've been really open, up front on everything, fully sharing and as factual as possible ... so it's not in that sense that I'm saying this).

"I definitely agree with this.  Despite how upfront and honest I have tried to be, there is always the question of what I am unaware of with regard to my own dynamics and motivations.  There is also the question with regard to the fundamental limitation I have of undestanding the EA stages - the learning of which is the point of this thread..."

I'm no expert at all on EA stages, but it seems one thing is clear -  and that is that you actually do need to develop your skills and talents, regardless of your stage. This is something Ari, Linda and I have stressed, and you also have said you feel thats the thing that's obvious to you as the current step. (And I also thought like Linda & Ari - writing/student/teacher??). But the issue it seems is motivation. Not feeling any interest in "moving society along", as you've "been there/done that". Maybe it was covered in previous posts that aren't available now, but I didn't ever recall anything that you've done that particularly stood out as representing that (unless you were referring to your nursing?, but that still didn't strike me as particularly 3rd individual orientated).

"The 'been there/done that' feeling, to me, seems to be coming from the perspective of prior lives, not this life.  So, what I'm sensing, as I look over my current life, is that, precisely because in prior lives I have 'done that' (ie, developed talents/3rd ind) in prior lives (or a prior life), in this life that has not worked because that motivation no longer works....  I suppose, frankly, it could be argued that, indeed, I have NOT 'done that' in prior lives and that in fact, THAT is the gap/abyss I am needing to face in this life.  But when I look over my life and my efforts (life, really, has not supported the development of my talents) and my current situation, it seems as though NOT finding that particular talent or whatever and developing it has in fact been part of the evolutionary impetus that has moved me towards what seems to me a 1st spiritual kind of orientation.  Now, having read your post, I think you are right on to say that it is still to be determined exactly where I am - end of 3rd ind, somewhere in the cusp, or 1st spiritual itself.  I also want to point out the grand trines in my chart (Pluto/Moon/Mercury-Mars and Neptune/NN/Chiron) and, while I'm not sure this is an EA perspective, I think it is common astrological understanding that grand trines can indicate a failure to develop the talents indicated by the trines simply because encountering obstacles proves too difficult.  So that becomes an important question: what's going on...?  As I said, as I consider my life, and especially the developments over the last 1/2 year-year, my sense is that all of these factors have in fact contributed to an evolutionary movement toward 1st spiritual... the frustrations with not fully developing my obvious talents (and no support to do so) and not finding others to develop (at least nothing to be enthusiastic about) - these experiences have driven me, continuously in my life, to rebel, to ask questions and to seek answers, all of which seem to be leading me to a place of very much wanting to orient my life in a completely new way - to rely on God, to develop that relationship.  And when I do that, I know that I don't have to worry - I know that God is there.  But this is all very new and I am certainly at only the very early stages of developing a consistent practice.  And, besides this EA community, I have not found a spiritual community, though I continue to look...."


Anyway, as I understand it, the effect a person has on society in 3rd individuated is not really a primary motivation. The primary motivation is fruiting one's individuality, developing one's potential as much as one can in a positive way, and the beneficial effect this has on society is almost a side effect.

"The question I have here is, for what purpose are they developing/fruiting their individuality as much as they can/developing their potential?  Is it for themselves?  Is there someone or something that they are serving?  Is it simply their own development?  I need to better understand the motivation of the 3rd Ind person as opposed to 1st spiritual, for example..  It seems to me that the 1st spiritual person, precisely because they've already moved through 3rd Ind (assuming no skipped steps) would ALSO be fully individuated and developing her/his particular talents.  But the motivation/desire would be different..  Yes?"

To me a 3rd individual person has cut the bonds with society once and for all, they know they're "doing their thing" but because they also realise that everyone makes up society they accept that they will end up contributing to it via their personal efforts anyway ... it's just they've seen through reacting to it, and instead just get on with things in a positive fashion.

However you seem pretty resolute that you've done all you can for yourself on your own, and now feel "you" as the doer is itself your greatest limitation. As Linda and Ari have noted, this implies the exhaustion of 3rd individuated desires has occurred. And I agree (assuming you've assessed it accurately). But to me it doesn't automatically mean you're in 1st spiritual. Her post is gone so I can't quote it directly, but from memory I think Adina pointed out that this realisation occurs as 3rd individuated is nearing the end, and opens the soul up to what the possibilities might be beyond this ... and the real spiritual search starts (or something similar to this). Not gathering information, knowledge etc, as this may already have been taking place to a greater or lesser degree, but a real gut wrenching quest - similar to the move from 3rd consensus to 1st individuated (so movingly described by Steve a while ago) - the long process of surrendering oneself is akin to consciously dying, and that's not at all natural, let alone attractive, unless it really is the actual next step. Adina was saying it's this very dilemna that creates the internal upheavel that will propel the soul into the next stage, 1st spiritual.

"Yes.  I wonder if I am not perhaps in the gap, or just making my way to the other side of the gap....?  To me this is tricky to work out... As I understand it, it can take many, many lives to move through a gap.  So how does one determine such a thing as where one is in a gap/whether one has moved into a new stage...?"

So to me, it's a question of just how far along this track you actually are? Are you at the very end of 3rd individuated, in a life where facing this dilemna is relatively new? or in the middle of the transition (with lots of alternating pulls) and therefore on the cusp of 3rd individuated/1st spiritual? or actually into the relative clarity of 1st spiritual itself ... that there really is no other reality, and therefore no other question/option ... than the journey of surrendering all desires as they arise to the best of your ability except the single desire to merge with whatever it is (however it's called - God/dess, Source, Divine etc), that permeates everything everywhere. In other words, as Linda asked you ... is this really your reality?

"Well, I am wondering what others think about this.  I think it is BECOMING my reality - that it is IN PROCESS.  That it is more than just a wish or a whim or an idea.  But I would say the training wheels are definitely on.  And I would say that I've only just begun attempting to learn how to ride the bike and that certainly there hasn't been 'realization/actualization', but perhaps some glimmers and then maybe some backing off.  But a desire to continue, if not a for sure path yet in terms of hooking up with a spiritual community and following their particular way.  As I've said in the past, I am receiving and putting into practice, at my own pace, the SRF teachings.  But I have not felt drawn to join an actual community of people practicing those teachings.  One step at a time, I guess."

With the skipped steps, and nodal rulers in hard aspect to Neptune, and Plu/Ura in 12th ... for me it's not clear whether you're ending up 3rd individuated, on the cusp, or you're into beginning of 1st spiritual.

"Does anyone have any ideas about this?"

Also as Linda pointed out, you've got a few grunty transits going on at the moment: transitting Pluto hitting both natal Sun and Moon (and soon coming up to hit natal Saturn, then the SN), transiting Neptune on 6th house cusp, transiting nodal axis on your natal nodal axis and hitting natal Jupiter, Chiron & Uranus, as well as transiting Mars, Jupiter & Saturn all hitting natal Neptune. No wonder things are cooking, and maybe its a bit confusing right now too? But what do you yourself feel Ellen - do you feel clearly you're into 1st spiritual proper?

"I actually do.  However, I feel that what you have presented re: anywhere from end of 3rd ind through 1st spiritual needs to be more fully explored."

Upasika


Linda,

The shift/arrow key worked PERFECTLY.... Thank you!!

[Upasika]

Upasika
Anyway, as I understand it, the effect a person has on society in 3rd individuated is not really a primary motivation. The primary motivation is fruiting one's individuality, developing one's potential as much as one can in a positive way, and the beneficial effect this has on society is almost a side effect.

Ellen
"The question I have here is, for what purpose are they developing/fruiting their individuality as much as they can/developing their potential?  Is it for themselves?  Is there someone or something that they are serving?  Is it simply their own development?  I need to better understand the motivation of the 3rd Ind person as opposed to 1st spiritual, for example..  It seems to me that the 1st spiritual person, precisely because they've already moved through 3rd Ind (assuming no skipped steps) would ALSO be fully individuated and developing her/his particular talents.  But the motivation/desire would be different..  Yes?"

As I understand it ... the purpose for which they are developing their potential, fruiting their individuality, is because they find that fulfilling. It is a natural thing because the nature of their separating desires is such that they feel good about life when they do this. It is for themselves, although they may or may not think of it in these terms, it's just what they feel drawn to do ... to develop their talents, their skills, their gifts because that's what their desires are about. It gives them a sense of purpose for their lives, and also allows them to integrate with everybody around them in a way that also feels meaningful and relevant.

To me, in the majority of cases, your description of the 1st spiritual person in relation to this is exactly right. But yes, their motivation has become very different. Whereas a 3rd individuated enjoys being the creator of his/her creations, a 1st spiritual soul has had their fill of that kind of enjoyment, and now it doesn't fulfill any more. What fulfills them is to be nothing more than a vessel, a channel for something beyond them to flow through them into manifestation. For them this is a much more meaningful experience than anything they could manage to do themselves. And that's why they feel so small ... because life still happens, and sometimes magically so, yet they feel they have had very little part in making it happen. Yet they may be highly skilled with very developed talents. Having "been there and done that" in 3rd individuated, if something needs to be developed, or upskilled, they will just go and do that. Usually it will not be hard for them to do it, if they feel directed by Source to go and do it, it will be done very cheerfully and efficiently (in true Virgo style). They will not be thinking that the thing they have done, in and of itself, is particularly special as such, or that they were special for being able to do it (but they might think that having been "chosen" to do it was something special). Their fulfillment is quite different.  

"Yes.  I wonder if I am not perhaps in the gap, or just making my way to the other side of the gap....?  To me this is tricky to work out... As I understand it, it can take many, many lives to move through a gap.  So how does one determine such a thing as where one is in a gap/whether one has moved into a new stage...?"

My feeling, from all that you have described about yourself, is that you could be in the gap. But of course those skipped steps and Neptune signatures could be muddying the water a bit here.

Thats why I feel your motivation is likely to be the deciding factor. It could be, as you wondered, that your skipped steps, related as they are to throwing off a great deal of repression and patriarchal conditioning, and expressing your truth - to yourself, in your family context, in your relationships and in your career, have all stalled your individualising process. The feeling you've done it in past lives needs to be clarified. You may have had many lives in 3rd individuated and indeed developed many skills and talents. Your trines and sextiles etc indicate that in many ways you have not had resistance to your evolutionary needs in the past. Where the resistance shows up is around Jupiter and to some extent Saturn. Perhaps you have always compromised the full individuation process by not really breaking free from all this conditioning to do what you truly always wanted to do, always caving in in the end to parental wishes about what you did. And now you need to have a life where you finally do the 3rd individuation thing, but completely and fully on your own terms. Of course you would be feeling this is a real drag, to have to go through all this again, but maybe that's where the growth is going to come, by finally facing it and not avoiding it as you have for so many lives, and once and for all resolving these skipped steps. If this was the case you need to really step away from all sources of external limitation and make the effort to actualise your individuality. As you say, your sense of individuality is not strong, your self image and sense of self worth has been low in this life. And if your skipped steps are in fact all about "individualising itself", fully and totally on your own terms, then you'll be stuck forever until you actually do this. The very nature of individualising means to stand as an individual, on your own feet, and forge your own path in life. Maybe you've never really done this completely? ... too much reliance on the family for acceptance ...

However, another possibility is that you have done 3rd individuated, and that the skipped steps are to do with hiding your spiritual truth, thus stalling in moving on from 3rd individuated into 1st spiritual. This could be reflected in your nodal rulers in hard aspect to Neptune (resistance), which is in Scorpio in the second (hiding there), and Pluto in the 12th opp Chiron in 6th (stalled on the clifftop with your spiritual flow arrested). Here the need in this lifetime would be to break away from all the repression and conditioning just the same, so that finally you can declare your truth as far as your spiritual interest is concerned, and be that truth, unwaveringly. Bluesky, Linda and Ari have all suggested this as your situation, and it could also be your reality.

My sense is that part of your skipped steps and their resolution, the very nature of Jupiter in Aries, is that you need to develop the capacity find the truth for yourself.

Instead of doing this you have been listening to all sorts of rubbish from your family (4th house), having career after career in the world (10th house), then tiring of this trying spiritual techniques (6th house) but when that became too close to the bone, and also threatened to consume you (12th house) you ran like a frightened rabbit back to the family. And you've been endlessly doing this circuit for a long time ... hence the skipped steps.

Of course along the way you've learnt a great deal about lots of different things, such that you feel you'd like to keep on learning and learning. And of course you could start teaching some of what you've learnt .. as pointed out by the others, you have certainly developed talent in both these areas. But none of this is the essential you, and you have expressed exactly that. If you factor in all you've said about how the trials and challenges of being gay, and not finding anything in life you truly want to do etc., has forced you to question everything and search for new answers, something that holds some kind of unique meaning for you, then perhaps the true nature of your skipped steps starts to make some kind of sense.

Thats why I feel maybe it's up to you to finally ferret out your actual stage. Adina was onto this a while back. We've narrowed it down to a small area, but you know your true motivations better than anyone else probably. Jupiter is intuition and perhaps you need to trust your intuition big time now. Ari felt so, and as he said, stop holding back ... Jupiter is expansion. Linda and Ari both felt you have a narrow idea of what reality can be stemming from past conditioning, and perhaps resolving your skipped steps by following your intuition (Jup), leading with your heart (4th), and just trusting (8th/12th) your gut instincts (Plu) is what will bring some inner authority and creative self expression into your life (Sat in 5th).

The only thing I can think to finally add is that skipped steps means a serious amount of avoiding has been going on for a long time, and so it's going to be a deeply engrained habit. You'd need to be careful that spirituality is not an avoidance of completing unfinished 3rd individuated evolutionary requirements (if indeed that was the case). As I understand it, in the bigger picture a key underlying purpose of 3rd individuated is to fully develop the sense of individuality/self within so that in the spiritual stage the contrast has been created and the let go is total. In the spiritual stage the self is offered up (surrendered) to the Divine. But you can't give what you don't have, can't let go of something that doesn't already exist. Unless the glory of one's individuality is experienced it's futility cannot be experienced either. And it's that real fultility that in the end drives the soul in search of the Source itself. That's why it's not possible to go straight from consensus to spiritual stage ... it just wouldn't have any meaning. Fully individualising oneself gives the spiritual stage relevance and meaning.

Upasika
So to me, it's a question of just how far along this track you actually are? Are you at the very end of 3rd individuated, in a life where facing this dilemna is relatively new? or in the middle of the transition (with lots of alternating pulls) and therefore on the cusp of 3rd individuated/1st spiritual? or actually into the relative clarity of 1st spiritual itself ... that there really is no other reality, and therefore no other question/option ... than the journey of surrendering all desires as they arise to the best of your ability except the single desire to merge with whatever it is (however it's called - God/dess, Source, Divine etc), that permeates everything everywhere. In other words, as Linda asked you ... is this really your reality?

Ellen
"Well, I am wondering what others think about this.  I think it is BECOMING my reality - that it is IN PROCESS.  That it is more than just a wish or a whim or an idea.  But I would say the training wheels are definitely on.  And I would say that I've only just begun attempting to learn how to ride the bike and that certainly there hasn't been 'realization/actualization', but perhaps some glimmers and then maybe some backing off.  But a desire to continue, if not a for sure path yet in terms of hooking up with a spiritual community and following their particular way.  As I've said in the past, I am receiving and putting into practice, at my own pace, the SRF teachings.  But I have not felt drawn to join an actual community of people practicing those teachings.  One step at a time, I guess."

It would seem that your interest in the spiritual is here to stay, in some shape or form. Once more clarity and certainty about your actual EA stage is attained, as Linda said, you'll be able to settle down into life from a more relaxed, focussed and productive perpsective. And then your spiritual practice may take roots somewhere and start to grow in a steady way.

I'm not any clearer what your stage is Ellen, but the subtle issues seem to be getting clearer. And thanks so much for putting yourself out like this, creating a really interesting discussion and great learning experience for us all. It's a blessing, and I really hope you doing this is of help to you too.

Upasika

[Elen]

Hi Upasika,

Thanks so much for your post.  I'm quite busy for the next 2 days, but later in the week I should be able to respond in full.  I can say right off that I related much more to the 1st spiritual descriptions than the 3rd ind w/ regard to motivations for developing/using one's talents.  And I can also say that, if I could, I would very much want to devote my life to spiritual practice and learning.  But I think that I have not reached that point in practical terms; that I need to gain more experience (spiritually-speaking) before that type of commitment would actually be fruitful.  I'll leave it at that.  Yours and everyone's feedback has helped me a ton and I feel I'm gaining clarity.  And I am learning, too, about EA stages, generally.

Wishing you good health,

Ellen