Hello All,
I was wondering if some of you would like to do some practice charts utilizing the EA paradigm ? If so, please respond to this post and let me know. Rad
i'm game -- so yes, please.
Count me in!
Sure - when I'll have time I'll pop in! :)
Yes! I need to practice!
Thanks
Great idea, let's do it :)
I'm in
Hi,
Well seems like a few of you want to do these practice charts. The way I would like to do this, and I do welcome your input on this, is to approach them from a beginner's point of view. So what I would like to propose is rather than doing any specific person's chart right away is to create a 'generic' approach. And within that to start in a building block like way how to apply the Pluto paradigm each step at a time. So, in other words, we could start with a Pluto position, let's say, in the 3rd house and then discuss generically what that would mean in terms of the types of desires that Soul has had in previous lives. We could, for example, discuss how that would manifest too in the different evolutionary stages and sub-stages. Then we could go to the next step and and apply a South Node to it in terms of how those desires got acted upon by the types of egocentric identities the the Soul created in order to do so. And we could then put that South Node in different signs and houses relative to the Soul's position within the 3rd house to see all the different ways a 3rd house Pluto could manifest.
Then we could go to the next step and locate the planetary ruler for the South Node by it's own house and sign to understand how the egocentric structures that the Soul has created to actualize has taken place. And we could play with different planetary rulers in different houses and signs to get a core grasp of the uniqueness of each Soul and how it goes about it's evolution in it's own way.
From there we can build upon this by then discussing the polarity point for Pluto, the locations of the N.Node, it's planetary rulers and play with different combinations therein.
Anyway please let me know if this is how you would like to proceed, and, if not, what ideas you may have.
Rad
that sounds wonderful to me, i really appreciate that very virgoian approach- im ready!
Hi Rad and Everyone..... I'd love to join in. Starting with a 3rd house Pluto sounds like an ideal way to learn! Thanks Rad.... (what a great way to begin).
Cran
lets start at first house pluto and go all the way around.
lets start at the eighth house pluto and go all around..... ::)
I was just saying that because inevitably someones house always gets skipped. There can be seperate threads for
"First House Pluto Practice Chart"
"Second House Pluto Practice Chart"
and it might be fun to use our charts but keep them anonymous. For instance we can submit our birth data to rad or deva and they can choose one chart with each of the pluto house placements that they think would be a good practice chart.
Sorry I couldn't resist. I don't really care where we start.
Hi,
Ok, seems like there are a few of you know that want to do this. Let's start at first with an 8th house Pluto. I suggest this only because, for those who have been doing this work, you already know that many of your clients have indeed the 8th house Pluto.
I would like to start this practice in very simple ways at first, and build from there. So for the beginning of this I would like all of you who are participating to post your own thoughts/ understanding of what an 8th house Pluto/ Soul's bottom line, Pluto, Soul desires have been that bring it to the current life. Right now we won't even put Pluto in a Sign. Just the house. Later on we will begin to add to this by way of putting it in a sign, then we will begin to condition it by way of the different Evolutionary Stages. After that we will discuss what the polarity point, the current life evolutionary intent is and progressively condition that by way of the different Evolutionary Stages. From there we will begin to add in the nodal axis, and their planetary rulers.
So let's have a go at it !
Rad
alright i'll start!
the underlying intent with an 8th house pluto is for the soul to experience itself.
the intent has been to create circumstances, relationships, practices etc that provide a sense of power and security for the identity until there is either a forced separation from that source of power, or a chosen removal from it. evolution of the soul has happened via the gradual realization that they have what they are looking for. in that realization, there is no longer a sense of limitation in not getting what one feels they need, and no longer a sense of power in the ephemeral form they were associating with... that is UNTIL the identity again feels a lack, and needs to fill that with a new experience, relationship, practice etc...
the evolutionary intent with pluto in the 8th has been to gradually burn through all desires that separate an individual identity from it's soul- which is the reason for it's existence in the first place.
The soul identifies itself with/ becomes a symbol of/ transformative power. Coming in with an innate sense of what they want/need in relationships/experiences/ the soul goes through a process of necessary discernment. Who to trust, what experiences to take part in, who to be close with.
The big question is why. Always a deeper searching, always the identification with the symbol of personal transformation, whatever that symbol is. It can be a candle flame, a ritual, a taboo, sex, death, yoga, meditation, tai chi- its something that connects the soul in with why why why and that innate power that transforms oneself. always asking the deeper questions, diving down, wanting bottom line and no b.s.
quick to integrate?
Hi, this is very cool! It is a great way to learn how to practise. I wanted to jump in and add that the 8th house Pluto soul will desire to penetrate to the core of itself (how it is pyschologiacally contructed and for what reasons-the famous "why" always being asked). The bottom line to remember is that the 8th house Pluto desires to transform pre-existing limitations within itself in order to evolve past these limitations. This is why the Soul will be pyschologically penetrating itself in such an intense manner. Whatever areas that the Soul has identified itself with in the context of personal power (i.e-the career, the relationship, specific beliefs) will be blocking further evolution because of the over idetification with these areas from an egocentric point of view. The point is that the evolutionary intention is to use onselves as the source of personal transformation that the Soul is seeking, and not to become dependant upon any external source for this evolution to manifest. the Soul is, in essence, confronting these limiations within itself in order to evolve.
hope this helps
Deva
Hi all..
Good for you Ari for 'jumping in' and thanks Issa and Deva too. I love this building blocks idea rec. by Rad.
There is an expression in Sanskrit that came out of India that Jeffrey used to use that I love called, "Nette Nette" - not this, not that. In other words, there is a process of elimination that the Soul goes through in order to unearth who it is at the very core. I am not this and not that. This is similar to what any Soul goes through during a Pluto transit or currently now you can feel this 8th house enenrgy on a personal some level as tr Pluto rx squares a Venus rx, an intense awareness of what you need and then an elimination of whatever is getting in the way of the needs of the growth of your Soul. In many cases relationships that have reached their limit are either ending or transforming. Imagine these cycles on a regular basis with a Pluto in the 8th house placement. Whatever is getting in the way of the growth of the Soul will be elimaintated. The ULTIMATE desire to return to the ULTIMATE Source of power expresses itself as the need to eliminate all LIMITATIONS getting in the way of a direct union with God.
Pluto in general is the archetype of reincarnation...death and rebirth so the entire life can feel like that for such Souls. Continuous cycles of death and rebirth - Emotional, Intellectual, physical and spiritual. Cycles of this forced metamorhposis..wherever the Soul has become stuck or conditioned, fixed and stale.
I have heard many Pluto in the 8th clients say, I feel like a part of me is dying, and well it is. But in order for evolution to occur involution must happen first.
Peace..Kristin
Is the 8th house pluto intrinsically attracted to 'trasformative' things such as death, sex, drugs, money, yoga or can they for instance feel that they are destined to paint puppies on rocks and have that be the transformative experience?
Like does the 8th house pluto kinda of 'attach' itself to something that for it defines a transformative experience whatever it may be until it no longer gets any growth out of it then it drops it.... almost shuns it. That's kind of my take on it... and the Scorpio Archetype.
Use it and then drop it like a bad habit. Like an obsessive need and then in the end, after its been fully experienced, probed and digested.... it comes out as excriment and the 8th house no longer has a need for it and flushes it away.... sorry for the graphic description. But they get what they 'needed'.
Is this accurate at all?
8th house Pluto individuals desire to merge with sources and symbols of power in order to overcome their characteristic limitations.
By merging with these symbols, they are able to absorb the power from them, thereby overcoming a sense of powerlessness or an over-identification with a limited or stagnant aspect of the self.
Cyclic rebirth takes place discarding the old dynamics and old self-identification.
By an ongoing merging with more powerful symbols, they progressively evolve into something greater than what they were.
This transformative process, heightened in these individuals, represents one of the dual desires of the Soul to return to the Source.
They naturally understand that the force of transformation is inherent in the human psyche and in all things. They have deeply penetrated into the mysteries of life.
Their favourite word is WHY.
Quote from: inyo on Apr 07, 2009, 05:49 PM
Is the 8th house pluto intrinsically attracted to 'trasformative' things such as death, sex, drugs, money, yoga or can they for instance feel that they are destined to paint puppies on rocks and have that be the transformative experience?
Like does the 8th house pluto kinda of 'attach' itself to something that for it defines a transformative experience whatever it may be until it no longer gets any growth out of it then it drops it.... almost shuns it. That's kind of my take on it... and the Scorpio Archetype.
Use it and then drop it like a bad habit. Like an obsessive need and then in the end, after its been fully experienced, probed and digested.... it comes out as excriment and the 8th house no longer has a need for it and flushes it away.... sorry for the graphic description. But they get what they 'needed'.
Is this accurate at all?
Yes, this is accurate. Even the painting the puppies on rocks cause that would be a SYMBOL that meant something to the painter. Once the nature and power of whatever symbol that the Soul is identifying with in order to evolve itself beyond it's existing limitations that correlate to how it's existing reality is defined have been fully osmosed, and thus no longer has any more power, it is in face discarded. The Soul at that point then desires new symbols in order for it's evolutionary process to continue.
Rad
Ive never thought of it like this before but it sounds almost parasitic in a way. Attach, merge, discard. Thanks for answering.
Inyo,
Sometimes it is indeed this way.. parasitic: attach, merge, discard.. depending on where one is coming from and the nature of motive that brought them there. If the core orientation is emanating from a psychology of self-interest and exclusion, then indeed, the parasitic analogy is utterly apt. But one can also enter this merging from a psychology of giving, sharing, and inclusion, with a core desire for mutual benefit. In this case the merging strengthens all participants who have united, versus the other reality in which the dominant participant extracts the power of the other without a second thought about the depletion to the other that this 'extraction' has served.
Stacie,
yes i was just referring to the base nature of the soul to do that. I think it is reflected in natural law. you can see animals doing it on earth, galaxies devouring one another, black holes consuming yet creating and sustaining the structure of a universe.
I was just referring to it apart from the human aspect of it or the soul intent which can indeed, and probably does in most cases, make it a positive thing. It just reminded me of nature when I thought it, and I hadnt looked at it like that before.
Hi Inyo,
And it's a great observation! I'm glad you shared it.
Hey all: Stacie's words here below:::
"But one can also enter this merging from a psychology of giving, sharing, and inclusion, with a core desire for mutual benefit. In this case the merging strengthens all participants who have united"
Here I see the coming times manifested through the scorpio archetype. There's the intensity of the merging inherant in the 8th house -- including merging resources. Opposite of 2nd house self-reliance/self-sufficiency. Through merging resources and sharing from a solid mutual place wow just imagine the potential for collective transformation particularly NOW and the transforming of our very world before us (Go O'Bama Too!).
Deeply transformative by nature, these eighth house/ pluto in scorpio creations ultimately manifest this "most high" mutual benefit intention. As we're evolving, the soul exhausts all necessities to "use" another for personal benefit. Manipulation can abound through scorpio archetype due to lazer penetration ability to see into the soul: motivations, weakness, wounds and true essence of another.
Understanding one's power through the interplay of power and powerlessness renders the scorpio soul ever more deeply towards God. Beauty comes from the inside out, and Beautiful Powerful Transformative Beings must be RESPONSIBLE in their interactions with others. An eighth house pluto person can get people onboard through the magnetic personality. Responsibility, perhaps a capricorn word, must happen even if through nothing other than the DISCERNMENT and the GOD filled -ever yearning- forward intent -to transform exisiting limitations -inorder to evolve and drop the bullshit-
so many traces, sticky weavings and lines of connection understood through scorpio and the merging of souls, DNA and karma. This ultimately functions towards evolving the universe at large. I want to thank inyo for her mention of universes engulfing universes, opening us up to the intergalactic scale. As I end this here for now, i invision Scorpio penetrating souls desiring GOD so deeply that the separating desires fall off like the drops of sweat as one runs towards freedom and liberation, being how GOD made us all to be. Through choosing consciously who to be close to we unweave and defrag the sticky lines of connection between souls, strengthening the web of GOD intended souls, so that we heal the planet and in turn, ourselves.
--
God Bless all of us,
Issa
Hi Inyo,
I found what you said to be very interesting:
Quote from: inyo on Apr 09, 2009, 06:59 PM
Stacie,
yes i was just referring to the base nature of the soul to do that. I think it is reflected in natural law. you can see animals doing it on earth, galaxies devouring one another, black holes consuming yet creating and sustaining the structure of a universe.
I always like to learn more about the nature of the physical universe that we live in. I have my own opinions on black holes (as I'm sure most of us do), especially since they have no real direct evidence of their existence. Indeed, their very existence is merely a postulate founded on Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle that Stephen Hawking ran with a few years back. I suppose that my problem with Heisenber's hypothesis is that he states that the physical universe is random and chaotic, totally without a pattern, which I just don't see. Astrophysicists do claim to have a picture of a black hole at the center of a galaxy, which I have perused but did not see any actual black hole in the picture. I have written to NASA and requested further proof on this matter and am waiting to hear back from them. I have heard the theories on galaxies crashing into one another (or at least the edges of galaxies colliding), although they don't have any pictures as of yet of this newly speculated phenomenon, so your statement about galaxies devouring one another piqued my curiosity. I wonder if you could provide me with a source for this so I can study it on my own?
Thanks,
Yarrow
Hi Inyo again :)
I did just do a little research on the whole black hole/devouring galaxy thing (the theory seems to be that black holes are the centers of galaxies and simultaneously devour and create, which is interesting in and of itself) and came across this remark by an astrophysicist that I thought was highly applicable in the nature of 8th House proof. The article that the astrophysicist was responding to was by Eric Hand at nature.com called "Did Black Holes Form Before Galaxies?" written on 7 January 2009 (URL: http://www.nature.com/new/2009/090107/full/news.2009.6.html) and the text is as follows:
"It has been claimed by the astrophysical scientists that a black hole has an escape velocity >= c (speed of light in vacuo). However, according to the alleged properties of a black hole, nothing, not even light, can leave the black hole, so the BH has no escape velocity. If its minimum escape velocity is really that of light, then by definition of escape velocity, light would escape in that case. Not only that, if the BH had an escape velocity then material objects with an initial velocity less than that alleged escape velocity could leave the black hole but not escape (just go out, come to a stop and then fall back). Escape velocity does not mean that objects cannot leave; it only means they cannot escape if they have an initial velocity less than the escape velocity. So on the one hand it is claimed that BH's have an escape velocity >=c, but on the other hand that nothing, not even light, can even leave the BH. The claims are contradictory - nothing but a meaningless play on the words "escape velocity". Yet I note the following remark in this report: ?For one thing, the light from the black holes outshines any surrounding stars, making them difficult to see.? I also note the following remarks: "This constant ratio indicates that the black hole and the bulge affect each others' growth in some sort of interactive relationship," said Dominik Riechers of the California Institute of Technology, or Caltech. "The big question has been whether one grows before the other or if they grow together, maintaining their mass ratio throughout the entire process." Carilli et. al. do not specify what kind of black hole you claim at the centres of galaxies. The simplest alleged black hole is the so-called Schwarzschild BH, which comes from a solution to the field equations Ric = 0, which is a spacetime that by construction contains no matter. Now the Principle of Superposition does not apply in General Relativity (in other words, one cannot insert into any given spacetime, by an analogy with Newton's theory, any number of objects into that given spacetime. The Principle of Superposition does apply in Newton's theory). Since the spacetime of the so-called Schwarzschild BH is by construction devoid of matter, one cannot insert another Schwarzschild BH (obtained separately from Ric = 0) into the spacetime of the first Schwarzschild BH, so that the two BH's persist in and mutually interact in a mutual spacetime that by construction contains no matter! Similarly, one cannot simply insert matter other than black holes into the spacetime of the alleged Schwarzschild BH, a spacetime that by construction contains no matter. But that is precisely what the proponents of black holes do, all the time. But one cannot talk of black hole interactions until it has been proven that such configurations of matter are well defined in General Relativity. This can be done in only two possible ways: (a) derivation of an exact solution for two (or more) bodies, or (b) proof of an existence theorem. But there are no known solutions to Einstein's field equations for two or more masses and no existence theorem has been proven by which it can even be asserted that his field equations contain latent solutions for such configurations of matter. Therefore, all talk of the presence of multiple black holes or black holes interacting with anything, is just wishful thinking. Upon what solution to Einstein's field equations do Carilli et. al. rely for the presence of numerous black holes, or even one black hole interacting with other matter, such as alleged at the centres of galactic bulges? And by what solution to Einstein?s field equations do they calculate the mass of the black holes they allege? The alleged signatures of the black hole are (1) an infinitely dense point-mass singularity and (2) an event horizon. Nobody has ever found an infinitely dense point-mass singularity and nobody has ever found an event horizon, so nobody has ever found a black hole, despite the now daily claims by the astrophysical scientists that they have found them all over the place, in great numbers. Nobody has ever observed a celestial body undergo irresistible gravitational collapse and there is no laboratory evidence for such a phenomenon. Similarly, not only has nobody ever found an infinitely dense point-mass singularity anywhere, there is no laboratory evidence that such things exist. And similarly, not only has nobody ever found an event horizon; there is no laboratory evidence that such things exist. All reports of black holes being found are just wishful thinking - patently false ? unless you can provide the coordinates of a verified infinitely dense point-mass singularity and a verified event horizon. But there are of course, as you know, no such coordinates, because no black holes have ever been found. Since Carilli et. al. advocate existence of black holes from General Relativity they (and any proponent of black holes)are invited to provide answers to the following additional questions. 1. In the so-called "Schwarzschild solution" what does the quantity 'r' represent? Provide a proof of what your conception of 'r' therein is. 2. What do you say is the range on 'r' in (1) above? Provide a proof of your claimed range on 'r'. 3. Can you prove that the so-called "Schwarzschild solution" is Schwarzschild's solution? If so, provide the proof. Resorting to mere citation of the usual "authorities" will not do.You must provide arguments and adduce rigorous proofs in explanation and justification of your answers. After all, my questions are not complex."
Stephen Crothers
9 January 2009
Just thought that this was a very interesting bit of information regarding using Einstein's accepted Theory of General Relativity in relation to black holes and galaxies devouring one another. I would love to hear what you have found on the matter, Inyo, since I truly enjoy the realm of astrophysics! ;D
Peace,
Yarrow
Hi Yarrow and inyo,
Thank you for the informative posts and Yarrow for providing some Scorpio proof. Black hole theories and fears, to me, are just NASA's way of grabbing headlines in order to receive funds for their "research". In my opinion, this chaos theory and uncertainty "principle" is another form of religion, that is to say a random universe has NOTHING to do with Natural Law.
Love and Peace, Bird
Hi,
Well thanks to all of you that contributed input in the ways that you have to our practice chart starting with the 8th House Pluto. All of you had good things to contribute.
So to try to keep it simple for now let's remember that the 8th House, for any of us, correlates in any given life to the EXISTING STATE OF OUR EVOLUTION. And based on that awareness of what we currently are, were we have come too, it simultaneously creates the awareness of what we need in order to continue in our personal evolution. The needs correlating to this evolution thus manifest as desires, and as we act upon those desires we then continue to evolve. This is why the 8th House, Scorpio, and Pluto itself correlate to 'symbols' that we form relationships too in such a way that the very fact of forming such relationships to whatever symbols generates as osmosis of those symbols into us. By osmosing the nature of those symbols into our existing state of evolution or reality we then evolve beyond the existing limits of that evolution or reality.
When we see in a birth chart that a person has an 8th House Pluto this will always correlate to a Soul who has desired to form relationships with whatever symbols that have represented something that it felt that it needed that it currently did not have. It has, as a result, projected to high degree of power into those symbols that then correlates to the Soul's sense of emotional and psychological security. Because of this there then exists a high degree of resistance from moving beyond those symbols in order to continue to evolve. This then can become the basis of stagnation. It can become the basis of compulsions and obsessions. It can become the basis of manipulation and control. It can become the basis of emotional and psychological dependencies that prevent further evolution of the Soul.
So, right now, for the sake of trying to keep this simple at first let's put Pluto in the 8th House and now link it to say a South Node in the 3rd House. Let's remember that the South Node will correlate to the types of egocentric structures that the Soul has created in order to actualize the desires within it. This specific orientation, i.e. the South Node in the 3rd House, will then correlate to the nature of the symbols that the 8th House Pluto is focused upon in order to actualize itself relative to it's ongoing evolution.
So, let's have a go at it !
Hi all....
I'd think a 3rd house South Node would alert us to unresolved karmic issues with brothers and sisters and issues from our early childhood. Communication in all forms would be significant for us and maybe karmic issues with having used many 3rd house experiences in a sort of "street smarts" way..... either for good or not so good. Maybe there would be an ease with words, a bit like a con artist or the opposite.... the gift of the writer and public speaker. With the Gemini influence of the 3rd, there would be a past that relates to high "curiosity" levels (needing to know what's going on, not missing anything). It could also indicate a possible reluctance to go into things deeply, meaning... a tendency to the "Peter Pan syndrome".... never really growing up at a deeper level or taking on deeper roles of adulthood.
Coupled with Pluto in the 8th... it would tell us something was under pressure to face the limits of the 3rd house South Node .... I'd think, this could be really tricky with the 8th house forces of sex, death, meditation, magic, rituals, money, the occult , our power status, and taboo subjects being used to transcend the South Node. Few of those 8th house Pluto urges would be "superficial" but they would defo lead to a deeper education of the understanding of the "meaning" of any Gemini flavored 3rd house issue. Pluto in the 8th would be the catalyst for the positive spurring toward a deeper quest of "meaning" so our evolution can grow rather than stagnate.
With Pluto in the 8th I'd also think... 3rd house South Node would learn of those limits through contact with others. Perhaps there would be some sort of relationship compulsiveness in 3rd/8th house matters. Perhaps both internal and outer conflicts between the personal boundaries of the South Node ego and an 8th house Pluto that draws in people/situations and issues of anything but "lighter Gemini" vibes. There would be an inability to extract the ego from the more superficial with Pluto drawing them into ever deeper "relationship" situations that relate back to brothers. sisters, childhood, communication and our environment and how to effectively use our intelligence to think and share in order to get beyond the South Node limitations.
it has incarnated into experiences in which it's ability to perceive and interact with it's environment has provided the soul with adequate information and awareness as to how to proceed further- either to make sure the status quo of security is maintained, or to connect the dots and literally perceive how it has been limiting it's own growth.
this may have manifested through all kinds of diversity- conversation, schooling, education, syblings, knowing their surroundings. the intent has been to learn and gradually understand more about the interconnectedness of phenomona or maybe of just particular phenomona.
this soul will be very interested in asking questions. the questions have always been triggers to greater soul awareness. it's evolutionary state will determine the kinds of questions that it has asked. however, in all cases evolution has been limited via any unwillingness to question it's shallow assumptions/ over identification with linear thinking.
Cool, great input! The Pluto in the 8th house/3rd house south node will be actualzing the need for emotional/psychological penetration and transmutaion through the type of intellectual information that is collected from the external enviornment. The limiations would then be rationalizing (3rd house south Node the resistance (8th house Pluto) towards evolving past the pre-existing psycological orientation to life in general. Yes, the intellect has become limitated in some manner, and the individual could potentially use the intellect/mental capacities to penetarte to the bottom line of this core dynamic in order to evolve past it. On the positive side the individual could have a very adapt ability to communicate powerful/transformative knowledge to others in order to promote growth within the other individual.
lets keep going!
With Pluto in Scorpio and South Node in Gemini I have seen the world through, become powerful from, and then become stagnant, through an intense relationship with the world of ideas. I cling to my view of the world comprised of a confetti of ideas that I have constructed. I have used my left brain to take apart the philosophical and belief systems of the very sources of power I have desired so deeply to merge with, and in doing I have been left without a sense of meaning.
I might be a writer whose second book was not picked up by the publisher.
I might be an invited speaker whose ideas are criticized by the members of an innovative, but "fringe" organization I have joined.
I might be a spiritual aspirant who has read all the books, talked with gurus, joined a mystical organization and earned its degrees, yet not found meaning.
I put this together
before reading any of the others:
The existing state of evolution is signified by Pluto in the 8th. The main approach taken to achieve the desires of the 8th house Pluto are demonstrated by the South Node in Gemini. This individual, desiring to merge with powerful symbols and sources in order to become more powerful (and symbolizing the desire to return to Source) would:
- be involved in the collection of a vast array of in-depth facts, data and information to serve the original soul purpose (thus emphasising curiosity, the question "why," and the desire "to know")
- be operating on a normal day to day level of the mind - like on automatic pilot - the collection would skim the surface extracting the powerful bits that would serve the original soul intention
- have the ability to merge with and absorb the power from the array of information collected
- use compelling communication and intellectual skills (eg cleverness, wit, perspicacity, versatility, logic, analysis) to merge with powerful people in his day to day environment thus transforming himself and others
- by the collection of the powerful information, enhance the 8th house purpose (eg healing, transformation techniques)
- be forced, once mentality implodes, to redefine his search and find NEW information
- be karmically connected with siblings, relatives and neighbours (especially the powerful ones) but the relationship with them may not be especially conscious
I don't understand duality very well and how it would apply in this case.
Hi Everyone,
This really great! :)
Let me add a few thoughts without reading through all previous posts...sorry if I repeat anything that has been said before.
One of the underlying characteristics of an 8th house pluto (and scorpio in general) is the direct experience of power -and powerlessness. It is a very intense archetype -correlating to the core phenomena of desire itself which is the fuel of evolution, but we need to remember that evolution is the result and not necessarily the desire......consciously desiring evolution comes into the picture only when the soul is further up in the evolutionary states.
With this example we can not know the evolutionary level of the soul in question, so what we can safely say is that there is a soul who have desired to merge with some powerful (8th house) ideas (3rd house) and in some ways (depending on the signs falling on the 8th and 3rd) directly experienced power and powerlessness as a result of those mergings. Thus, the soul has experienced power and powerlessness within its immediate environment in relation to the people with whom it interacted on a daily basis.
The ideas/symbols it merged with were mostly left brain oriented in essence, logical, linear ideas - however these ideas may have been extremely diverse (the degree will again depend on the sign the 3rd house would fall in) and the soul developed an ability to look at things at least intellectually from both sides. There is a more or less adaptive mental approach (again this could vary via the signs) and an inner psychology to use this in a way that consciously or unconsciously the soul will defend its own point of view in a way as to use its mental ability to find the weakest link in any opposing argument/opinion and tear it down; i.e. undermining it. There is a certain (depending on evolutionary state) degree of psychological knowledge which is used for better or worst ;D...depending on many things which we can't say from this two symbols yet. Only the whole chart can tell the particulars...what's for sure is the fact that relative to any evolutionary state, the soul has developed some level of psychological knowledge relative to it's own consciousness and did use this knowledge in some ways. What's sure is that it has used this knowledge in order to "be more powerful" than it was before.
With the 3rd house s.node the soul valued symbols that in some ways contribute to the notion of "knowledge" and communication as such was one of the key tool to establish and maintain its whatever "power" - which the soul identified with as its underlying security. Communication here can be direct or indirect i.e. verbal or written etc. For example it could have been a writer who were able to influence many - and yet experienced a halt of this powerful position in some sort of ways which then forced the soul to transform its ideas.
But of course that's just one possible scenario...
One of the important lessons of the 8th house is the proper use of power, including or rather starting with personal power. This lesson -as everything else - can be learnt only via polarity; i.e. embracing the lesson of what is the improper use of power. This is true in general and in particular terms.
8th house/scorpio also correlates to the deepest trust, the deepest intimate union with another, and of course sexuality as the means of a personal intimate merging with another. With an 8th house pluto these areas are also important aspects of the overall evolutionary lesson.
With the 3rd house s.node in the past this area of life too has been defined at least to some degree via means of intellectual, left brain oriented approaches. The degree of this, of course will depend on other factors of the chart (like where venus and mars is etc. etc.) But the above still will be true to one degree or another.
The other thing about 8th house/scorpio is that the soul perceives sources of power outside of itself. The desire to empower itself has taken place via merging with power sources outside of itself....with the 3rd house s.node we can safely say that the sources of power have been at least somewhat diverse. It could have been coming from different people and their different ideas that the soul osmosed in and then used it on its own ways for its own purposes. Again, for better or worst...
Hope this would help to induce some thoughts to further the picture :)
Blessings,
Lia
"The other thing about 8the house/Scorpio is that the soul perceives sources of power outside of itself. The desire to empower itself has taken place via merging with power sources outside of itself..."
Hi Lia,
when you say the 8the house pluto/scorpio perceives power outside itself are you also meaning that in terms of evolutionary stages? What stage do you think that the 8th house pluto/scorpio moves from seeing power outside to power within?
thanks,
pam
Hi Pam,
Arcetypically speaking, the 8th house/scorpio archetype fundamentally correlates to the merging, uniting, osmosing with something some sort of power symbol outside of the self. In all evolutionary states.....of course at the very end of the evolutionary journey the ultimate source of power "outside" the self will become the Source itself...but there is a long way to get there.
So archetypically speaking Scorpio in itself is not about the power from within...it is about the evolutionary force that pushes the soul to realise that it NEEDS (desires) something MORE....something that it doesn't already have. So this in itself points outside of the self, outside of what it already is or already has within. The polarity, taurus, 2nd house correlates to the self while scoprio points outside of the self to something more - something that can be aquired only via overcoming the existing state's limitation. For whatever that state may be it always has some sort of limitation. In other words there is ALWAYS something more to life, something more to evolutin and the 8th house scorpio is the archetype that makes the soul consciously or unconsciously realise that and this is the force that pushes the soul forward.....again for better or worst.
The archetype is about the choices the soul makes inorder to fulfil that perceived need. Of course at the end the need/desire is to become more powerful within. But how it is done is not about utilising only the inner resources, the inner power -for that is the limitation itself. I think it is very obvious that any level of evolution except the very last state when the soul merges (osmoses) with the Source itself, there is always "something more to it" i.e. the previous level of evolution always has limitation. To overcome that limitation the soul needs to (and inwardly forced to) look outside the previouis boundaries of its reality.
For example, is it not this scorpionic archetype that all of us have been atracted to EA and we are osmosing it, taking it in, in order to overcome the limitation of our previous state? Before we were attracted to EA before we started to osmose this kind of understanding there was some known or unknown limitation in our previous state/reality and we perceived it as something that we need. An outside source of power, that elusive "something more" that we DID NOT ALREADY HAVE.
As a symbol of power this "thing" was certainly outside of ourselves before we familiarised with it, and we all are in the process of empowering ourselves via progrerssively taking it in and making it "our own" in the process of osmosing it?
Is it not true that in return it simply metamorphosize our reality in all levels? And the limitation of our previous state sheds away and a totally new reality emerges.
Scorpio is progressively becoming aware of the forces of existence that are larger than itself. This process is what sheds the ego, for this archetype is the force via which the egocentric consciousness progressively becomes aware of the invisible forces that leads to the soul, and ultimately at the end of the road, this is what leads to the direct realisation and merging with the ultimate Force, the Source itself.
Hope this makes sense?
Blessings,
Lia
Hi Lia,
Thank you... Yes It makes perfect sense, Desire itself is is about merging with something. I get that. I think I am responding to the idea that you wrote about scorpio seeing power outside themselves, I think that is just a commplicated statement and so simple. The desire to return to source is a desire and in one sense seeing power outside. Which I think is different than seeing "god" "goddess" outside one self... I think thats what Im trying to clarify. I think I answered my own question....
thanks,
blessings,
pam
With pluto in the 8th and a south node in the 3rd, the soul has chosen past life ego structures that have had a natural curiosity intrinsic to them toward a diversity of subjects and experiences. The extent of variety is tempered by virtue of the 8th focus, which brings depth to the 3rd house archetype's naturally lateral nature. Curiosity itself will be driven by motive. The ego may not always be conscious of the specific motive that is generating curiosity (evolutionary state will be a factor), but they will feel the influence of the motive making curiosities hypnotic. The affect created is one wherein the individual feels compelled to follow such curiosities in order to find out where they lead and what new information they provide. Along the way they will be driven by a need to know WHY the curiosity is so hypnotic...a sense of mystery will permeate the exploration...and they will attempt to answer that question by probing the subject/experience in a very concentrated way until the answer is experienced directly. When the answer is finally penetrated, the hypnotic quality of the curiosity will diminish and a deep core awareness will emerge. If the awareness presents a recognition of long-term value that will afford ongoing growth, a commitment will be made in the context of that experience or subject, and they will continue to study all of its components very deeply, learning all the ins and outs, all the related connections, the related "˜cause and effects', and extensive terminology that will allow a very deep communication of the knowledge gained in that study. Experiences/subjects which do not provide recognition of long-term value will be left behind. This reflects the 8th house lessons of making evolutionary choices of what to commit to, and what not to commit to, which is important because when we make a commitment to something, we are allowing a form of enmeshment to occur, which facilitates the cohesion of merging. If we commit ourselves to something that does not afford ongoing growth, we are in metaphorical terms, glueing ourselves to circumstances that will keep us standing in place and will produce progressive stagnation, which if sustained for too long, will then generate circumstances that have a cataclysmic effect of tearing that bond apart. Torn bonds do not equal culmination of bonds. When we tear bonds (any form) in this way, specific karma is generated that alters the course of our future by requiring us to go back at some point in time to confront/identify/resolve the casualties that occurred as a consequence of the forced separation. This isn't to say all forced separations are 'bad', they simply implicate karma relative to what is left unresolved. With respect to a 3rd house SN, this process will occur through experiencing a variety of circumstances that will share the same fundamental underlying issue, that will have the affect of triggering emotional dynamics rooted in the past. There will be an intense temptation to try and reroute the emotional dynamics away from the emotional body and process them through intellectual channels instead. Yet the natural function of the moon and its nodes is emotional, and thus these dynamics must ultimately be addressed on that level: in the emotional body. The appearance of the circumstances that trigger these emotional dynamics will be different, but the core issue within them will be the same. The lesson becomes one of exposing the core issue within the circumstance at hand, and addressing that specific issue fully to allow the necessary metamorphosis to occur. Resistance to that lesson produces a pattern of continuing to abandon one circumstance for another, based on an assumption that the problem originates with the circumstance and not within the individual who is drawing the circumstance.
Edit: Upon reflection a question has occurred to me about whether I've overemphasized the role of the SN in my statements below and inadvertently morphed this into a 4th house pluto process rather than an 8th pluto process. Rad and/or Deva, will you please supply some clarity on this? Are these statements still on track given that we are only thus far considering pluto and its south node, or have I indeed deviated from the 8th house archetype and wandered into the 4th? Sorry!..having a momentary incapacity for seeing the forest for the trees!
A 3rd house ego structure can be utilized by an 8th house soul by providing a context in which the soul can access a variety of past life identities, each reflecting their own core focus and specific emotional dynamics/imprinting associated with the focus. A 3rd house ego structure comes to know itself through gathering a diversity of experiences, and through the nature of the circumstances that exploration occurs through. The individual will relate their sense of identity on an ongoing basis though these diverse experiences, and particularly those to which a commitment has been made, by perceiving its self image as an extension of these experience/circumstances, creating a sense of being an embodiment of many different aspects and characteristics. Being natural detectives (8th house pluto), those various aspects and characteristics associated with the sense of identity, will be intensely focused upon throughout life by the soul in order to arrive at the awareness of how each of these various parts are connecting at the same root in the core of oneself. As these connections are made it will promote a natural assimilation of what may have previously been felt/seen/experienced as numerous unrelated parts, and allows one to grasp on an intuitive level a bigger picture of how these parts are integrated to reflect who they are in total. 8th house pluto/3rd house SN shows an intent to tap into and connect past life identities in order to arrive at this larger self-picture. If a 3rd house ego structure is developed and defined through the collection of information and phenomenal experiences, and we have a SN reflecting these types of ego structures in the past, and an 8th house bottom line evolutionary intention of penetrating to the core of oneself, we can see how the hypnotic curiosities generated by the soul will lead the individual to the specific experiences and information that directly reflect and connect to these past life identities. As the individual links one's current life experiences reflecting past life identities with the present self-image, a process occurs wherein the individual unconsciously (unless spiritually evloved) facilitates a deeper gathering/integration of the identities created over many lifetimes, in order to connect those identities and their related emotional dynamics and identify how those connections have come together to produce the soul's own inner workings. The intent in identifying one's own inner workings is ultimately to discover how those inner workings can be applied more effectively to fulfill the core desires that will allow the soul to continue to evolve.
Stacie
HI Stacie,
Edit: Upon reflection a question has occurred to me about whether I've overemphasized the role of the SN in my statements below and inadvertently morphed this into a 4th house pluto process rather than an 8th pluto process. Rad and/or Deva, will you please supply some clarity on this? Are these statements still on track given that we are only thus far considering pluto and its south node, or have I indeed deviated from the 8th house archetype and wandered into the 4th? Sorry!..having a momentary incapacity for seeing the forest for the trees!
***************************************************************************
No, what you have written is excellent and does reflect the 8th House Pluto perfectly. The entire trinity of Cancer, Scorpio, Pisces, 4th, 8th, 12th in total correlate to the emotional body.
Rad
Oh good, thanks for helping me clear that up ;)
Stacie
Hi Stacie... beautifully written! Rad... thanks for the all your input. It's such a pleasure to come here.
Quote from: cranberry on Apr 18, 2009, 04:06 AM
Hi Stacie... beautifully written! Rad... thanks for the all your input. It's such a pleasure to come here.
HI Cranberry,
Thanks for saying thanks and that it is such a pleasure for you to come here. Simple things like that mean so very much ... Thanks and God Bless ........... Rad
Hi,
Ok, let's continue on our journey. Let's now put the ruler of that S.Node in the 10th house remembering that the S.Node will use that house placement of it's ruler as the basis or archetype of actualizing itself, just as Pluto uses the S.Node of the Moon to actualize it's desires.
Let's have a go at it !
Rad
Hi all --
I'm deeply behind here - haven't read much on the south node in gemini yet - instead of waiting longer to read and write, i'm gonna go for it and catch up as i will
south node in gemini creates loads of different types of experiences in order to exhaust the limitations and parameters that the pluto in scorpio person necessarily needs to exhaust. This includes an entire scope of experiences and tinkerings that revolve around the ultimate desire to land solidly, with a tenth house rulership, into a way of understanding one's own mind/thought process as well as working through those capricorn conditioning factors from the past that CREATED the scope within which one was conditioned to think or act. Within the sifting through of all these various types of experiences, the natural capricorn/10th house archetype exhibts its authority over all of it. Undoubtedly some experiences bring up much discomfort because of what has been stifled and needs to be continually worked out THROUGH (3rd house experiences) -- to create the transformative 8th house pluto being
Is this atleast the beginning of a solid launch pad of understanding?
:)
Issa
hi rad,
point of clarification- when we put the ruler of sn in 10th house, are we assuming a gemini sn and thus mercury in 10th, or are we just being very generic right now?
Quote from: ari moshe on Apr 23, 2009, 08:15 AM
hi rad,
point of clarification- when we put the ruler of sn in 10th house, are we assuming a gemini sn and thus mercury in 10th, or are we just being very generic right now?
Hi Ari,
Generic ...
Rad
Quote from: Issa on Apr 22, 2009, 08:47 PM
Hi all --
I'm deeply behind here - haven't read much on the south node in gemini yet - instead of waiting longer to read and write, i'm gonna go for it and catch up as i will
south node in gemini creates loads of different types of experiences in order to exhaust the limitations and parameters that the pluto in scorpio person necessarily needs to exhaust. This includes an entire scope of experiences and tinkerings that revolve around the ultimate desire to land solidly, with a tenth house rulership, into a way of understanding one's own mind/thought process as well as working through those capricorn conditioning factors from the past that CREATED the scope within which one was conditioned to think or act. Within the sifting through of all these various types of experiences, the natural capricorn/10th house archetype exhibts its authority over all of it. Undoubtedly some experiences bring up much discomfort because of what has been stifled and needs to be continually worked out THROUGH (3rd house experiences) -- to create the transformative 8th house pluto being
Is this atleast the beginning of a solid launch pad of understanding?
:)
Issa
Hi Issa,
First , we are just doing a generic thing at the moment ..........not Pluto in Scorpio, S.Node in Gemni, etc .. it's just generic right now. Second, you need to develop much more fuller that basis of what you are saying / describing in order to show/ demonstrate the inter-relationship of Pluto, the S.Node, and the location of it's planetary ruler. I can see that is what you are trying to do though. It just needs much fuller development.
Rad
SN Ruler 10th
This person would have the ability to utilize the powerful information gathered and social contacts with prominent members of society for a social purpose, role or function.
Information would be disseminated in a way that was logical and easy to understand by the society, organisation or wider audience. Information would be gathered in a methodical, disciplined and organised way for a practical use. The ability to apply mental skills toward a practical application.
Could have an encyclopaedic mind possessed of an enormous amount of useful and practical information. A great capacity to communicate effectively in writing or speech, to inform others, to reach a larger audience, to influence others, and to initiate and lead.
Would need to display acceptable conduct and would need to work within the rules of society or the organisation. Could abuse power by manipulating the system, through the power of words, or by withholding information.
This person would desire an authoritative or prominent position, could use the knowledge/social contacts to achieve financial success, personal goals, and social power.
So Rad, in terms of approaching this generically, are we at least acknowledging that mercury is the planetary function that is developing the SN?...or are we keeping it even more generic than that? Hey this is 10th house fun we're having..defining boundaries! ;D
hey stacie
i'll answer that bc i think i'm pretty clear on how we're approaching this.
the answer is no- we haven't placed the signs on the chart yet. we're just dealing with those houses generically.
Hey this is 10th house fun we're having..defining boundaries
haha! yes, in fact...
our intent is to understand the core dynamics and reasons for any soul's incarnation (8th house). this is happening via an internet forum (3rd house) in which we have embraced a defined structure as well as a defined system through which we can learn (10th house). :P
whoa, you're right Ari.. didn't even notice my own projection. while a relatively innocent slip in the context of this exercise, it can't be understated how important it is in EA work to leave our subconscious projections at the door.. these have incredible potential to create harm for the people we are actually intending to help, so i'll take this one as a very welcome reminder!
thanks ;)
Quote from: Stacie on Apr 23, 2009, 06:08 PM
So Rad, in terms of approaching this generically, are we at least acknowledging that mercury is the planetary function that is developing the SN?...or are we keeping it even more generic than that? Hey this is 10th house fun we're having..defining boundaries! ;D
Hi Stacie,
We must always remember when understanding and analyzing birth charts from an EA point of view that the Natural Zodiac is always the baseline upon which to build our total understanding of the symbols within the birth chart. Thus, with the generic S.Node in the 3rd house that means that the Natural Zodiac directly correlates to Gemini and Mercury. Thus, the S.Node can be in whatever sign in the 3rd house but the underlying archetype within that is indeed Mercury and Gemini. No different than, in our example, with the planetary ruler of that generic S.Node being in the 10th house. The underlying archetype, relative to the Natural Zodiac, is of course Capricorn and Saturn. So whatever the actual planet is in that 10th House will itself be defined, conditioned by, Saturn and the nature of the 10th House.
Rad
With the ruler of south node in the 10th, development of self image in past life ego structures has occurred through a process of self-reflection, emotional maturation, defining/establishing personal authority, and self-determined setting/achievement of goals.
The focus of self reflection will be related to early conditioning which will have some kind of emphasis toward prevailing norms that have been defined and advocated by society. One will have an emphasized tendency to reflect upon how closely one is fitting the "˜typical molds', and how fitting these molds, or not fitting these molds, impacts upon one's personal sense of authority or credibility in the eyes of the world, and how one's credibility in the eyes of the world has an impact on the relative successes or obstacles one experiences in the context of one's sociological function/role/work.
The gender one embodies will also be a point of private reflection, relative to how closely the personal sense of identity matches the commonly accepted definitions and expectations for what type of behavior and appearance is considered appropriate to one's gender assignment.
There will be a natural focus on the nature of one's personal conduct within the context of societal interactions relative to the roles one has assumed. The sense of identity will be seen as a reflection of one's conduct and how other's in society respond to it. This will be a focus of ongoing refection in order to arrive at the answer of the question, 'who am I'?
One will experience a natural gravitation toward leadership roles, either feeling a natural sense of destiny or entitlement for becoming or gaining acknowledgement as a leader, or the exact opposite, or a combination of both. The nature of one's personal sense and orientation to authority will condition how one sees their own competency for assuming such roles of leadership.
If the person is oriented primarily to external authority, an intense focus on conforming to the realities of others more socially powerful than oneself will become the basis for how one conducts oneself, and how judgements are formulated that will serve as the basis for decision-making in the context of their leadership and work therein. The sense of personal security, in who they are as an identity, will be connected with one's power to make decisions that impact the lives of others who are below them on the hierarchal totem pole. They will feel an emotional need to preserve their rank in that hierarchy, and in extreme cases, at any expense. A person with this orientation will tend to project responsibility for failures on external sources and repress suggestions which point responsibility directly to them. Over time this will produce an increasingly rigid pattern of needing to control oneself and others through an almost robotic compliance to the rules and regulations which have served one's interests in the past. One will see their own security as dependent upon maintaining one's existing status, and over time as the dynamics and procedures of society change and evolve, there will be a private and progressively intense feeling of vulnerability as generations below them begin to manifest the promise of their blossoming maturity...this will trigger emotional dynamics and reflections about one's increasing perception of their own mortality, and induce personal insecurities about the fact that they are moving into a progressively declining phase of life. This can induce an emotional psychology of resignation...resigning to a life of merely going through the motions and attempting to sustain personal security via "˜control'...this is because they have not done the adequate work of defining who they are as a unique individual, with a unique quality of personal authority...thus they cannot see themselves independently of the social positions they have allowed themselves to become extensions of. As life progresses, the energy to try and control one's life becomes utterly exhausted, and the individual will find themselves with no choice but to reflect anew upon who they are from the point of view of where life has brought them. They may ask themselves, 'How did I get this way?', and they will spend a great deal of time reflecting on this somber question in a very deep and internalized way, which in many cases will manifest as chronic depression.
If the person is oriented primarily to their own unique and personal sense of authority..i.e. inner authority..this will also define the nature of judgement formation in the course of their sociological work. One will tend to approach this by reflecting upon the knowledge they have gained over the course of their own personal experience, and relate this knowledge/experienced wisdom to the circumstances at hand. A person oriented to inner authority will also go about implementing decisions in a very different way than those who are oriented primarily to external authority. These people will give serious and respectful consideration to all decisions before them...how the decision will impact all people involved, and how it will serve the existing goals of whatever larger structure it relates to over the long haul. If any decision leads to failure, such an individual will wholeheartedly embrace accountability for whatever error in judgement was responsible for the failure, and tney will make a self-determined effort to learn from this in order not to repeat faulty decisions like it again. Over the course of life this will promote a very deep and stable self-respect within oneself for the self-determination they have personally demonstrated in life, even when the climb has been grueling and hard. This will build a quiet knowing within the individual of who they truly are, and that whatever legitimate competency they have manifested in life is REAL, and not a mere appearance of social posturing. The nature of this self-respect will have been derived from many experiences throughout the course of life in which they have witnessed others who have misused the power of their responsibilities to the detriment of others, for their own gain. Those experiences will provide a defining contrast to the dutiful approach that one has chosen to take in their life, whether or not the crowd did the same. The realizations that come of this personal reflection will promote a very deep emotional satisfaction in who they are and how they have lived their life. This will provide an emotional strength that is as potent as the inner strength that one experiences when at the height of youth, with a bright unmarred future ahead and full of sociological potential..but the difference of this particular strength will apply to the context of having come to prove and know oneself as a strong elder. This is something that can only be arrived at by earning it. One earns this through a lifetime of decisions, pursuit of goals, willing acceptance of hard work that one sees as one's duty, and accepting personal accountability for every aspect of one's self. This allows one to see and know themselves as being someone who has something to contribute to the younger generations, and will project oneself in an accessible way to those who are beginning or relatively fresh on the path of traversing of the great trek we call life. This affords a renewal of one's personal sense of life purpose in the late stages of life, and how this reflects who they've become as a person through their own passages in life.
Stacie
Hi Stacie,
So can you now link this S.Node ruler in the 10th House to the S.Node itself in the 3rd, and then link that to the Pluto in the 8th by starting the sequence of this with that Pluto in the 8th ?
Rad
Hi All,
Thanks Rad for this interesting thread, (and actually for all the threads on this MB! browsing through them one is more marvellous than the other!!)
This chart is becoming ever more interesting! Wow! We may have outlined the baseline dynamics of a chart for let say, a world known mafia leader ;D or a great psychology teacher/writer who sincerely meant good .....or anything in between ;D ...like a president, or just a simple everyday person who happened to be a director of the tiniest corporation etc. etc....that's all relative, and of course would depend on the specifics .....
But what everything would essentially depend upon is what kind of power symbols the soul identified with and what kind of desires it acted upon as a result......which then would define how the 8th house desire nature have been manifested via the facilitating symbols: i.e. what kind of ambitions (10th house) the underlying security needs (8th house) lead to via the 3rd s.node egocentric nature.....what's for sure is that the person wanted to manifest power within his/her immediate environment and was relatively "clever" in some way implementing it using the intellectual ability it had, fuelled by the underlying desires of the 8th pluto....it is certain now that it has done either via some some kind of social "status" or "accomplishment" of some sort...meaning the person may earned it or may gained it.....in one way or another it lead to at least some relative worldly power and status....
From the current info we can not really know if the person meant well or not, but we certainly know it has identified with the social role/status....with the 3rd s.node being facilitated by the ruler in the 10th some degree of identification is more than likely. (Except if the person is very high on the evolutionary ladder, but that is rather rare)
Simplifying the picture if we look at symbols and at the same time the relevant polarities this would point out the desired evolutionary growth areas, and all of them points to the inner world: meaning evolution would occur via changing (or being enforced to change) the focus from what's happening outwardly, and in relation to others, to what's happening inwardly.
Pluto's p.p being in the 2nd house, points to the self itself, as the major evolutionary lesson. Within that the n.node (as the polarity of the s.node) is the 9th, points to the need of changing one's way of thinking from the linear, logical, deductive thinking to the inductive, non-linear, non-logical way. To embrace some intuitive, natural truth, instead of being dependent upon opinions.....for the person was formulating opinions according to some kind of socially accepted authority (including their own status) ....this was one of the way to gain power...
Than, in power, these whatever opinons were then communicated from a point of view of some sort of status quo....this could have been totally honest or could have been fuelled with manipulation and ulterior agendas...that can not be known at this point....in any case, the person needs to embrace more of the whole, to open up their horizon...i.e. truths are not dependent upon people's opinions or the staus quo...
(the need for embracing the actual truths is set forth in the n.node in the 9th)
The next thing is the s.node ruler's polarity, which of course pointing to the 4th house; the emotional reality of the person, independent of social status.... to embrace how they actually feel and function emotionally within themselves independent of anything else...to become aware of their essential humanity and the fact that they too are emotional beings just as everybody else...and as such, what 8th house pluto perhaps fears most to face: their own vulnerability! ;D
These polarity points set the theme of the major evolutionary lessons in this life....while pluto, s.node and its ruler show what has been developed in the past...
It worked for a while to merge with the perceived power symbols to rise above the previous limitations, but now there is a need to look within deeper...that either happens via the person's conscious cooperation, or happens via circumstances that will enforce the change of focus....
Questions like the following suppose to enter into consciousness, well maybe not literally, but the essence of them will manifest in some ways:
"Who am I independent of position, power, social role etc.? Who am I independent of all other people? What do I really value in life? How do I really feel within and what kind of inner relationship do I have with myself? Does my identity really equal to my social status? Is that my only emotional base to have a self image? What is the truth in all this? Is there actually a being "me" who does not relate to either, what/whom am I joining powers with, nor how others/society perceives me?"
Looking forward to where this chart will actually lead...!
Blessings,
Lia
Hi, this is great interpretation! I wanted to add that, as Lia was saying, the Soul would have to find his or her voice of authority from within (10th house ruler of the SN) in the context of knowing what information to abosorb and which to leave out that is based on cultural conditioning factors and does not serve to support the Soul's on going evolution. In other words, a limiting dynamic within the Soul would be absorbing information from the consenus enviornment because of the need to conform, yet this type of information, again, does not support the need for conitual evolution/metamporhosis symbolized by the 8th house natal Pluto.
Deva
a little debrief after reading some of your wonderful words everyone
limiting dynamic of this soul consumed by status and worldly power -- now that we have more details we look back @ initial questions: what power symbols soul identified with? -- what desires were acted upon?
Like Lia said, the Ambitions (10th) inacted reflect an intellectual capacity (3rd) through which the soul achieved power -status within a relative environment. environment able to validate power -building status within a group of opinions en vez de truths. so important the soul make change from within/inner sense & not make change only in the grand outer world of visage and social power as 3 and 10 south node and its ruler demonstrate
8th house soul merged with power symbols (of some intelectual -- ambition filled sort) now we see where its hit the limitation bridge and its brewin' over -- soul looking for and needing a deeper more complete experience (9th house polarity) -- the greater vision -- a larger picture inline with natural truths and not the man-make power status shite- can't go on anymore because of existing limitations -- always the evolutionary pull and either complient or forced to see the symbols and limitations --sometimes catacysmic -- intensity inorder for soul to learn --
soul's tendency to deduct opinions according to socially accepted authority en vez de induct truths according to natural law intuitive capacity
another limiting factor, the need to embrace the hole and the horizon-- truths are not dependent on status quo/opinions. 4th house dynamic south node rulership polarity point-- the souls emotional reality -- sense to feel/have emotions or not and how this ties back in with the limiting factor -- evolutionary wall
well.. i intended to keep it broad so i apologize if i focused on the limiting factors or one expression of the archetypes en vez de the other.. yes, thank you all who posted, i pretty much read you then Lia so i resaid what i heard from her
Bless ya'll
Issa
Here's what I'll add to all this-
I think at its core the 10th house= inner trust in self-ability, self-authority. In this case, trusting themselves that they are trained enough, prepared enough, credible enough, responsible enough to do the learning, writing, communication, data collecting etc implied in the 3rd house.
If the focus was on gathering information which lead to a transmutation of limitations, then 10th house tells us that self-credibility has been the key facilitator for that. They would have naturally found reflection for their level of inner self-credibility through the particular social or institutional status quo they lived in.
Hi All,
Ok, so let's now move to the natural polarity point of the 8th House Pluto: the 2nd House. This core bottom line will, in essence, correlate to the Souls current life Evolutionary Intentions as measured against the existing dynamics/ archetypes of the 8th House. For those of you who are relatively knew to Evolutionary Astrology you may wish to read in Wolf's Pluto One book about Pluto in the 8th House, then read Pluto in the 2nd as a way of helping you in this analysis. So let's have a go at it !
Rad
Security for this soul has been dependent on obtaining knowledge that is linked to social credibility. That naturally implies an obsession with fulfillment via that which exists on the outside. The 8th house Pluto desires continual evolution, however it has been limiting it's evolution by continuously outsourcing it's security towards the aforementioned desires.
The second house polarity implies the need for the soul to own that it alone is the source of it's limitations. Becoming the crucible for it's own transformation.
In essence this points to the need to stop creating "security" via merging with others and/or power symbols ouside of itself. Instead learning to fulfill those security needs from it's own inner resources.
The symbol in the 8th pluto signifies that a limit has been reached and an evolutionary INTENSITY developed within the soul prior to the current life: this conditon demands very intense evolutionary changes...metamorphic changes -- even if that comes as cataclismic on the ego level. Meaning the whole life structure that the ego developed could at one point fall apart without a warning...the inward intensity symbolised by 8th house pluto is enourmous, for both forces, the resistance and the evolutionary pull is at its peak....so cataclismic changes are highly likely in one way or another with this placement ..... ;D
Why? Simply because we have the archetype of intensity of the opposing forces doubled here: 8 house AND pluto itself...The famous volcano effect has been set forth under the surface...
In this case, in the past, merging with others lead to some kind of social power (in one way or another) therefore the security needs symbolised by pluto were attached to symbols of power (and of people) via which the soul was able to create the whatever social status as an implementation to fulfil its deepest security needs. The current evolutionary need is to stop this unconscious inner dynamic, and remove the connections (the merging) with all those power symbols and all those people who embodied this for the soul......this is EXTREMELY difficult for any soul with this symbolism, for all the soul knows is how to identify itself through the whatever connections and merging. This was the base of its deepest security...
Yet, now the goal is to see itself without any of it (usually after some devastation of feeling let down, being used, betrayed, forced, attacked etc. etc. I must add: these feelings are relative to how the soul FEELS inwardly because this is the point when the famous rug has been pulled under it's feet; so these feelings MAY or MAY NOT reflect the actual reality)
So at one point the soul needs to find itself without the old security structures and it needs to become aware of it's own inner resoursces, abilities, strengths, talents etc. etc. that the soul has totally INDEPENDENT of others, and anything outside of itself.
The evolutionary need is to learn utilising these inner resources on it's own. This also means learning to fulfil its own survival needs so to become totally independent of others - and in doing so find a totally new basis for the desperately sought INNER SECURITY.
blessings,
L
Great input! PLuto's polarity point in the 2nd house, and the South Node then being 9th house would signify that the essential self-reliance would come through creating a holestic understanding of all the information/data (south node in the 3rd house) that has been absorbed from the external enviornment. The Soul's belief system is critical because it would have to allow a transmutation of the intellectual limiations of the past reflected by the 8th house Pluto and south node in the third house. the individual could have natural teaching abilities that could be actualized in order for self-reliance to be estbalished. Alignment with natural laws/principles that teach such self- reliance, and is not based on cultural conditioning is vital as well. This evolution would alllow the person to align with natural metaphysical principles that truly resonate with the individual on an intutive level, and serve to promote an alignment with his or her natural identity/individuality as well.
Rad said: Ok, so let's now move to the natural polarity point of the 8th House Pluto: the 2nd House. This core bottom line will, in essence, correlate to the Souls current life Evolutionary Intentions as measured against the existing dynamics/ archetypes of the 8th House. For those of you who are relatively knew to Evolutionary Astrology you may wish to read in Wolf's Pluto One book about Pluto in the 8th House, then read Pluto in the 2nd as a way of helping you in this analysis. So let's have a go at it !
* * *
The symbols of
transformative power (8th) are
ideas (3rd) that explain the
social reality (10th).
Intellectual power was used to fulfil social ambitions, to establish his authority, or to show how powerful he was to others in society.
The 2nd house current life evolutionary intention is for self-reliance, to discover from within himself and rely on his own internal values and personal resources for self-sustainment, on whatever level.
The compulsive dependency on powerful 8th house symbols is minimized - because he is identifying himself as his own personal symbol of transformation.
Will cease to manipulate others, and will learn to dance to the beat of his own drum.
Will discover the core of himself away from linkage to other powerful people, information or symbols.
Hi Rad,
Just wondering if we are going to continue with this thread?
Thanks...Linda
Hi Linda,
Yes, I would like to continue with chart practice but it seemed that there was a dwindling interest in this thread which is why it just seemed to stop. So I think what I would like to do is start a new one, and approach it differently. What I am thinking right now is to create a new example and then have those that are interested review the various archetypes in Wolf's first book on Pluto: Pluto in the different houses and signs. It would seem to me if we did it in this way we could have a much deeper and more complete analysis as we went through the exampled chart. Let me know if you feel you would like to do it in this way. Would like to see too if others would like to do it in this way. If so, for those who are reading this post, please respond to this and let me know.
Rad
Rad:
I would like to do it in the way you suggested, plus a diversity of others ways in the future if you wish - it's all good!
It seems there are different levels of participants, from beginners to advanced. I am happy to do it along with the more advanced practitioners as this is a great way to learn.
May I offer a few suggestions?
- To commence a new thread for each practice session or each example chart, so that they can easily be referred to later on.
- To give each chart a name, eg PRACTICE CHART: Sue, Peter, etc.
- To commence a special thread that contains a LIST of everything we've covered, the first one being:
Name: PRACTICE CHARTS
Date commenced: 24 March 2009
Areas covered: Pluto 8th / SN 3rd / SN Ruler 10th
Contributors: Rad, Deva, Issa, Sajani, Lia, Michelle, Stacie, Linda, ari moshe, cranberry, inyo, gruff, Kristin, yarrow8, birdwhistler, david, PamS
Thanks!
PS: Perhaps occasionally we could work on REAL charts of ourselves, friends, famous people, etc.
Linda, there are two "real" charts being analyzed now on the MB: Stephen's and mine. Jump in anywhere you like!
Adina:
Over the years, I've thoroughly enjoyed reading and constantly refer to JWG's Pluto I - and I use the Pluto dynamic all the time. I know nothing about the planetary nodes.
Thanks for your encouragement Adina! I will try and jump in on the threads you mentioned.
Hi All,
If anyone else wants to try to do practice charts, abstract ones instead of the real life ones that are already on the message board, this is your time now to let me know.
Rad
Rad,
I am very new to this message board and ea, but would like to study some abstract charts as well as real life ones too. Thanks, Heather
im definitely down for more abstract practice charts.
All,
I am interested, even though my input might be slight (other than mental cut-and-paste, so to speak).
Still, I read these postings with great interest.
:)
Blessings,
Stephen
Hi,
Ok, lets start up this thread again and do some practice charts using the EA paradigm. As I said I would like those that are participating in this to reference Wolf's first Pluto book where he writes about Pluto through houses and signs. In other words to read it when we are looking, for example, at a practice chart that say has a 4th House Pluto, or a Sixth House Pluto, etc. This will allow for a much deeper discussion and analysis that just winging it from off the top of one's head.
So with that in mind let's start with an abstract chart and put Pluto in the 7th House. So read what Wolf wrote for Pluto in the 7th House and then talk about that in your own words in terms of where the Soul has been and why, where it has left off from it's most recent prior lifetimes, and what the core evolutionary intent is for this life: the 1st House polarity.
So let's have a go of it !
Rad
Quote from: Rad
So with that in mind let's start with an abstract chart and put Pluto in the 7th House. So read what Wolf wrote for Pluto in the 7th House and then talk about that in your own words in terms of where the Soul has been and why, where it has left off from it's most recent prior lifetimes, and what the core evolutionary intent is for this life: the 1st House polarity.
A Soul with Pluto in the Seventh House has had as the previous evolutionary intent of its most recent prior lifetimes the need for subjective individual development, which required a self-centered orientation. Thus, previously, the intent was to experience essential aloneness in order to purge egocentric self-importance, and so the Soul was formerly learning the skills required to channel its inherent capabilities in order to attempt to serve the needs of society. In previous lives, the Soul conceivably had approached relationships in extreme ways, either dominant or co-dependent, controller or controlled, some times possibly even within the same relationship, and so additionally may have developed karmic problems associated with a variety of other people.
As the Seventh House is a natural cardinal house, this carries the meaning of a new evolutionary cycle that was previously started in the most recent past lives and is still continuing to develop throughout the Soul's current life. The Soul has therefore previously been learning the process of developing an objective awareness of its own self, and additionally attempting to understand this new-found sense of individuality through a social perspective. So, in a preliminary way, the Soul has been learning the evolutionary lesson of objectivity versus subjectivity, which includes the lessons of true listening, equality, and balance.
Within this path of Soul growth, a fundamental lesson is how to participate in relationships, and so this will be a driving force for the individual coming into this life. That particular lesson will therefore require conscious involvement within a broad diversity of relationships, leading the Soul to have an exposure to many different value systems, intellectual systems, emotional patterns, and spiritual beliefs. Through an assessment of this diversity of relationships will come an understanding of the unique parameters of the Soul's own innate individuality. However, to gain a
true understanding of others, the Soul will need to listen objectively in order to determine how to relate to those others, and so will eventually learn to truly hear the others' representation of reality. This will itself then lead to the Soul's ability to provide for others' needs from the point of view of those other's own reality. This acceptance of differing points of view will lead to a deeper understanding of the inherent relativity of all human nature.
The unconscious emotional security structures, built into an ego by the Soul when coming into its current life, are in this case defined by the need to be in relationships in order to feel fulfilled and complete. This will eventually lead to the completion of the self through relationships with others, which will itself lead to uniting that self with others. Thus, the lessons of a Pluto Seventh House Soul will eventually lead to an equal participation through true balance in many differing types of relationships, with the Soul learning along the way to be neither subservient nor dominant.
A downfall within this particular archetype is the possibility of an involvement in too many relationships, being subjected to too many differing viewpoints, which can lead to the opposite intent, which is that of a Soul losing touch with its own unique individuality. Unfortunately, this could also possibly lead to a compulsive dependence on the opinions and advice of others, and may even in extreme cases lead to the Soul's substitution of the understandings of others concerning
their own self and life-purpose as its
own. This would then lead to the inability of the Soul to relate to itself without relating to others, and so a feeling of being uncomfortable while being alone will arise. An additional downfall of this type of dependence can be a subconscious attraction to powerful and stable individuals who will provide direction and life-purpose to the confused Soul.
The core evolutionary intent for a Soul in the current life is reflected in the Pluto Polarity Point, which for a Seventh House Pluto is to be found within the First House. Thus, the current evolutionary intent is for the individual to learn how to choose their own life directions without dependence upon opinions or consent of others, and thus meet its own needs without reliance upon others. This does not imply the individual becoming a loner or living without a close relationship, but instead indicates that they should learn how to be alone and make their own decisions in order to more fully develop their own unique individuality. These Souls will thus be required to balance the need for time alone with the need for time spent with others.
Within their personal intimate relationships, they will also learn not to control or block their partner's own need to initiate decisions, and this will require the Soul to learn to conduct relationships in new, and not in expected, ways. This not only requires the individual to support a partner's independence, but the partner must also learn to reciprocally support independence in the individual. Voluntary participation within the relationship in a mutually dependent way will thus encourage
inter-pendence and not
co-dependence with both of the partners.
The individual will learn to give to the other so the others' needs can be met, and, when a true balance in the relationship is achieved, the partner will also give freely back to the individual so that their
own needs can thus be met as well.
Thus, as these lessons are learned, these individuals will be very
giving people, able to easily identify the needs of the other within the context of the others' own realities, and thus provide exactly what the others' need. Additionally, they will come to learn the lesson of
when to give and when not to give in the context of the larger view of the specific evolutionary needs of others.
The lessons of the First House Pluto Polarity Point will lead the individual to learn to be inwardly balanced in any external situation, and so have a firmer grasp upon their own identity, even in the face of pressure from other outside viewpoints, values, beliefs, or even ideas. These lessons will also lead to the individual truly appreciating the complex diversity of human nature, and, through realizing their own unique individuality, they will be able to place that individuality within the context of human society. They will thus themselves give this conceptual lesson to others through their own
living example, the concept of which is that every individual does on their own have the ability to discover who they are, and additionally the courage to THEN BE
THAT.
Hi Stephan,
Quote from: stephen on Jul 04, 2009, 09:31 AM
Quote from: Rad
So with that in mind let's start with an abstract chart and put Pluto in the 7th House. So read what Wolf wrote for Pluto in the 7th House and then talk about that in your own words in terms of where the Soul has been and why, where it has left off from it's most recent prior lifetimes, and what the core evolutionary intent is for this life: the 1st House polarity.
A Soul with Pluto in the Seventh House has had as the previous evolutionary intent of its most recent prior lifetimes the need for subjective individual development, which required a self-centered orientation. Thus, previously, the intent was to experience essential aloneness in order to purge egocentric self-importance, and so the Soul was formerly learning the skills required to channel its inherent capabilities in order to attempt to serve the needs of society.
********************************************************************
No, this is not correct. Any 7th House Pluto , prior to the current life, has defined itself RELATIVE TO BEING IN RELATIONSHIPS WITH OTHERS. The intent has been to learn the 'relativity' of reality as a result, to realize that others have needs just as their own, and to learn to understand and see themselves objectively as a result.
**********************************************************************
In previous lives, the Soul conceivably had approached relationships in extreme ways, either dominant or co-dependent, controller or controlled, some times possibly even within the same relationship, and so additionally may have developed karmic problems associated with a variety of other people.
As the Seventh House is a natural cardinal house, this carries the meaning of a new evolutionary cycle that was previously started in the most recent past lives and is still continuing to develop throughout the Soul's current life. The Soul has therefore previously been learning the process of developing an objective awareness of its own self, and additionally attempting to understand this new-found sense of individuality through a social perspective. So, in a preliminary way, the Soul has been learning the evolutionary lesson of objectivity versus subjectivity, which includes the lessons of true listening, equality, and balance.
Within this path of Soul growth, a fundamental lesson is how to participate in relationships, and so this will be a driving force for the individual coming into this life. That particular lesson will therefore require conscious involvement within a broad diversity of relationships, leading the Soul to have an exposure to many different value systems, intellectual systems, emotional patterns, and spiritual beliefs. Through an assessment of this diversity of relationships will come an understanding of the unique parameters of the Soul's own innate individuality. However, to gain a true understanding of others, the Soul will need to listen objectively in order to determine how to relate to those others, and so will eventually learn to truly hear the others' representation of reality. This will itself then lead to the Soul's ability to provide for others' needs from the point of view of those other's own reality. This acceptance of differing points of view will lead to a deeper understanding of the inherent relativity of all human nature.
The unconscious emotional security structures, built into an ego by the Soul when coming into its current life, are in this case defined by the need to be in relationships in order to feel fulfilled and complete. This will eventually lead to the completion of the self through relationships with others, which will itself lead to uniting that self with others. Thus, the lessons of a Pluto Seventh House Soul will eventually lead to an equal participation through true balance in many differing types of relationships, with the Soul learning along the way to be neither subservient nor dominant.
A downfall within this particular archetype is the possibility of an involvement in too many relationships, being subjected to too many differing viewpoints, which can lead to the opposite intent, which is that of a Soul losing touch with its own unique individuality. Unfortunately, this could also possibly lead to a compulsive dependence on the opinions and advice of others, and may even in extreme cases lead to the Soul's substitution of the understandings of others concerning their own self and life-purpose as its own. This would then lead to the inability of the Soul to relate to itself without relating to others, and so a feeling of being uncomfortable while being alone will arise. An additional downfall of this type of dependence can be a subconscious attraction to powerful and stable individuals who will provide direction and life-purpose to the confused Soul.
The core evolutionary intent for a Soul in the current life is reflected in the Pluto Polarity Point, which for a Seventh House Pluto is to be found within the First House. Thus, the current evolutionary intent is for the individual to learn how to choose their own life directions without dependence upon opinions or consent of others, and thus meet its own needs without reliance upon others. This does not imply the individual becoming a loner or living without a close relationship, but instead indicates that they should learn how to be alone and make their own decisions in order to more fully develop their own unique individuality. These Souls will thus be required to balance the need for time alone with the need for time spent with others.
Within their personal intimate relationships, they will also learn not to control or block their partner's own need to initiate decisions, and this will require the Soul to learn to conduct relationships in new, and not in expected, ways. This not only requires the individual to support a partner's independence, but the partner must also learn to reciprocally support independence in the individual. Voluntary participation within the relationship in a mutually dependent way will thus encourage inter-pendence and not co-dependence with both of the partners.
The individual will learn to give to the other so the others' needs can be met, and, when a true balance in the relationship is achieved, the partner will also give freely back to the individual so that their own needs can thus be met as well.
Thus, as these lessons are learned, these individuals will be very giving people, able to easily identify the needs of the other within the context of the others' own realities, and thus provide exactly what the others' need. Additionally, they will come to learn the lesson of when to give and when not to give in the context of the larger view of the specific evolutionary needs of others.
The lessons of the First House Pluto Polarity Point will lead the individual to learn to be inwardly balanced in any external situation, and so have a firmer grasp upon their own identity, even in the face of pressure from other outside viewpoints, values, beliefs, or even ideas. These lessons will also lead to the individual truly appreciating the complex diversity of human nature, and, through realizing their own unique individuality, they will be able to place that individuality within the context of human society. They will thus themselves give this conceptual lesson to others through their own living example, the concept of which is that every individual does on their own have the ability to discover who they are, and additionally the courage to THEN BE THAT.
Very, very good Stephen !!!
RAd
Hi there,
First time on this board. Hope it's not too late to jump in for chart practice!
Gypsie
Quote from: Rad on Jul 07, 2009, 09:33 AM
Hi Stephan,
********************************************************************
No, this is not correct. Any 7th House Pluto , prior to the current life, has defined itself RELATIVE TO BEING IN RELATIONSHIPS WITH OTHERS. The intent has been to learn the 'relativity' of reality as a result, to realize that others have needs just as their own, and to learn to understand and see themselves objectively as a result.
**********************************************************************
Hi Rad,
Thanks for taking the time to help me with my understanding by reviewing this post. I will definitely go back and re-read the application chapter, and see where my understanding strayed, and so embed the correct information concerning 7th House Pluto.
Blessings Be upon All Teachers,
Stephen
Quote from: Gypsie on Jul 07, 2009, 04:03 PM
Hi there,
First time on this board. Hope it's not too late to jump in for chart practice!
Gypsie
Hi Gypsie,
!Welcome to the Evolutionary Astrology Message Board! It is never too late, I am certain - your comments are absolutely welcome...
Blessings,
Stephen
Hi Gypsy,
Jump right on in if you wish. If you choose to do so please read Wolf's Pluto book to do so like in the example we are doing now with the 7th House Pluto. In other words read Pluto in the 7th in his book and then write what you wish after doing so just as Stephen did.
And WELCOME to our EA message board !
Rad
Hello all,
New to this forum but not new to EA. Happy to be back! I would love to jump in but am limited in time. I will try later....
Peace,
Michelle
Hi All,
Thanks Stephen and Rad for keeping this thread, I expressed an interest but funnily my copy of Jeffrey's book has disappeared somewhere in my house...I've looked high and low, hmmmm, so I'm going to let go and just continue to read the threads, listen and learn, and also refer to Deva's book as we go. I do hope the threads continue. I learn so much from them. With gratitude, Heather.
7th House Pluto
The evolutionary impulse of the 7th house Pluto is relatively new. They have been learning the following lessons:
"¢ The development of social values
Through their involvement with a wide variety of people and exposure to diverse beliefs and values they are learning about their own true individuality through listening, comparison and evaluation. They have a compulsive need to be involved in relationships, or to unite their lives with another, in order to feel whole. Because of a compelling need to discover who they are through others, and through absorbing the different realities of others, they can become overly dependent on these sources as a means of defining themselves.
"¢ Playing an equal role in relationships
Because of the compulsive need to compare and discover who they are through others, they may become attracted to very powerful, self-assured people who they perceive hold all the answers and who can guide them. In order to feel a validation of the self, they may play a submissive or "alter ego" role where they are dominated, controlled and manipulated by the other. Since their own individuality is undeveloped, they attach to and become an extension of the other, and adopt the other's beliefs, views and values. Alternatively, they could play the dominant role in the relationship making the partner become utterly dependent on them due to the learned ability to deeply understand the other's reality. These roles can remain fixed or can interchange within the same relationship. The imbalances, deficiencies and distortions in these types of relationships will produce internal and external confrontations, resulting in the termination of the relationship by either partner, or other cataclysmic events that bring about reflection and examination of the difficulties.
"¢ Inner balance
Due to the nature of the 7th house Pluto, these people are not balanced by nature; they usually approach relationships with expectations that are projected onto the partner. They may have an inability to receive due to their own distortions or unmet needs from the past. They realize they have a need to be needed, and a need to give. They learn that by giving to another, their own needs get fulfilled. In this way, they are developing their own inner balance.
"¢ Relationship skills
These individuals are learning how to relate to others in a balanced way: how to give, how to receive, how to listen, when to give, when not to give, how to give to another what they need, how to give unconditionally, how to understand one's own needs, how to minimize dependencies. They are learning how to attract relationships that are equal, balanced, non-dependent and non-manipulative.
"¢ Full development of individuality
As the polarity is developed, these individuals progressively learn that the answers lie within themselves, dependencies on others are minimized, they seek relationships that are equal, they learn to trust in their own decisions, they appreciate alone-time, they become self-motivating, and their individuality is embraced and courageously expressed.
Hi Linda,
You have done a excellent job with this.
Rad
Hi there,
I have a chart of a 7th house pluto person. I don't necessarily see all the traits of the 7th house Pluto in this person as he was more of a loner. Maybe this person was just starting the learn the 7th house lesson or at the end of the lesson? Would it be OK to post the chart and look at it?
Gypsie
Hi Gypsie,
Please do ............
Rad
Here it is. Tha'ts my father's chart. He would be 85year old. He passed away in May. He was born and raised in France.
Gypsie.
(http://schoolofevolutionaryastrology.com/forum/images/RG.gif)
Hi Gypsie,
For the purposes of this thread I would like you to provide some biographical information about your father, and within that your own estimation of his evolutionary condition: i.e. consensus, individuated, etc.
Rad
Hi Rad,
I've deleted my post. I'll wait for more
information and see what you say about this first.
Thanks.
Hi all, many thanks.
I am participating, digesting, reflecting, etc...
This thread will not end, simply change rate of activity as we progress through all the generic possibilities.
So be it!
Quote from: Linda on Jun 23, 2009, 03:21 PM
Rad:
I would like to do it in the way you suggested, plus a diversity of others ways in the future if you wish - it's all good!
It seems there are different levels of participants, from beginners to advanced. I am happy to do it along with the more advanced practitioners as this is a great way to learn.
May I offer a few suggestions?
- To commence a new thread for each practice session or each example chart, so that they can easily be referred to later on.
- To give each chart a name, eg PRACTICE CHART: Sue, Peter, etc.
- To commence a special thread that contains a LIST of everything we've covered, the first one being:
Name: PRACTICE CHARTS
Date commenced: 24 March 2009
Areas covered: Pluto 8th / SN 3rd / SN Ruler 10th
Contributors: Rad, Deva, Issa, Sajani, Lia, Michelle, Stacie, Linda, ari moshe, cranberry, inyo, gruff, Kristin, yarrow8, birdwhistler, david, PamS
Thanks!
PS: Perhaps occasionally we could work on REAL charts of ourselves, friends, famous people, etc.
In response to reply's 68 & 69, showing support to continue with Pluto in each house.
I appreciated Linda's idea of multiple threads. After sitting with this idea, I was thinking that, in terms of thinking of the future of this thread and the future flux of participants(new and old students), it could be helpful to create a thread for pluto in each house. So, we would have started the
"Pluto in 7th Thread" and while allowing the continuation of the
"Pluto in the 8th Thread".
What do you think?
Also, I liked Linda's idea of a thread that would introduce future participants to the
"Practice Chart Threads"Personally, I've appreciated Rad's focused approach on just Pluto in a house and then adding a nodal house position, highlighted with a peppering of "real" practice charts. It feels as if the content would be more valuable to introductory students visiting the message board to at least begin the threads in this fashion.
Thanks for all the support and sharing
What do you think Rad?
and Deva, what are your thoughts on this also?
Hi Bradley..I like your idea. The information provided has been quite useful. I am working on a chart now with an 8th house Pluto.
I've been meditating on the 7th house Pluto and have such a hard time writing my thoughts. I wanted to add the idea of 7th house Pluto being the "Chameleon" as they are always nice and trying to have peace, getting along with others to the point of loosing themselves. They can change and fit into any group, like an actress. I am a seventh house Pluto and the first time I had a reading with Jeffery he said this to me and I was offended because I didn't find this to be true as I had been studying and growing spiritually on so many levels. But now, I do understand as I came into a family with a consensus type ruler ship and with many projections put on me as to who I was, sometimes it's a matter of survival. I can see it in a new light now although I still relate and understand the many personalities I was exposed to.It's interesting because in the Native culture there is a Shape Shifter, I think this could be the same idea as an empowered 7th house.There is a period in life where 7th house Pluto has to go through figuring out who they are. I was also very shy when I was younger and afraid of people due to the projections. I think it also depends on the placement and rulership of Venus in the chart. I am Pluto in Virgo so looking at Mercury in the 12 house also adds to the inability to speak my truth out of fear of persecution.
Jeffery also mentions the anger involved with a 7th house Pluto and how shocking it can be to others when the volcano erupts. As they move toward the polarity of Aries in the first house and start to find their center, when they are pulled on or projected to be someone that they are not it can cause a rebellion.
I also have experienced strong Karmic relations with others. These relationships can be very intense. It was mentioned that the 7th house Pluto person might end the relationship before the partner is ready for it to end, creating new Karma to be resolved at a later time. It also works the other way around where the partner leaves the 7th house Pluto and they don't understand why.These experiences are deeply painful to the core but create much soul growth as they work through the pain, being forced back onto themselves, ending the codependency on another. As they evolve toward spirit as the ultimate relationship and learn to be self reliant they find the balance and peace within.
I don't know how to post my chart but I'd be happy to share if it helps for study purposes.
Jan. 14th 1969
Tucson, Az
9:29am
Blessings,
Michelle
Hi Bradley,
In terms of practice charts it is best to do them in a building block fashion, step by step, versus creating all kinds of various threads reflecting Pluto in different houses and signs. Without the building block approach, which Wolf always advocated and taught, it leads to confusion do to dispersion.
I have tried since the beginning of this message board to keep the flame alive for these practice charts but as you can see no one really wants to stay with it. If you and/ or Michelle would like to contribute to the existing thread that has been focused on the 7th House Pluto please do. Just as Linda and Stephan has done. If I can see ongoing input then I am more than keen to keep doing these practice charts.
Rad
Hi, I wanted to add some input based upon Michelle's post about Pluto in the 7th house. To me, the chamellion aspect of the 7th house reflects that the individual is fulfilling the expectations of others in such a way that they become an "alter ego" of the other person they are in a realtionship with. The 7th house person's identity becomes defined relative to this pattern, and so the chamellion dynamic manifests relative to whaterver expecations and projected needs of the current partner that are being fulfilled by the 7th house Pluto person. In other words, the person has become dependant upon relationships to understand their own sense of identity. Of course, in the other extreme, lets remember that Libra corrlates to extermes, the 7th house Pluto person could operate in the opposite way and manipulate others to become his or her alter ego to have their own needs fulfilled. In all cases, the core dynamic to remember about the 7th house and Libra is the need to be needed, and how this need dictates the nature of the realtionships that are formed in the context of the dyanmics discribed above. Lets keep going with this thread!
Deva
This brave soul, Michelle, offered to use her chart - perhaps she could go ahead & post her evolutionary state & some background?
Hi Deva,
QuoteTo me, the chamellion aspect of the 7th house reflects that the individual is fulfilling the expectations of others in such a way that they become an "alter ego" of the other person they are in a realtionship with. The 7th house person's identity becomes defined relative to this pattern, and so the chamellion dynamic manifests relative to whaterver expecations and projected needs of the current partner that are being fulfilled by the 7th house Pluto person. In other words, the person has become dependant upon relationships to understand their own sense of identity. Of course, in the other extreme, lets remember that Libra corrlates to extermes, the 7th house Pluto person could operate in the opposite way and manipulate others to become his or her alter ego to have their own needs fulfilled.
Thanks for the clarity. A couple questions....How would this 7th house Pluto work in the 3rd stage individuated and spiritual evolutionary states. Does the "chameleon" exist at all evolutionary stages? Plus would you find this manipulation in these stages of evolution? I guess Jim Jones(Chart example, In Pluto 1) was a 7th house Pluto, not sure of evolutionary stage but that seems like a good example of the manipulative type hiding behind God. I'm assuming this was Jim Jones the cult leader who lead all his followers to their death, is this right?
Lucius,
I put myself in 3rd stage individuated moving into 1st stage spiritual?
Raised Roman Catholic
Spiritual beliefs-I have always related to Shamanism and feel most connected in nature. I study about many beliefs but favor the teachings of Yogananda.
I work at an organic company that sells bugs. I also paint murals and sale paint.(practice astrology and Reiki)
My parents were Italian & Irish Dad worked in Construction, Mom worked in restaurants and then went through a 20 year battle with Cancer. Dad spent some time in prison.
Thanks,
Michelle
Hi Michelle, yes this dynamic can operate within the third stage individuated and spiritual early spiritual states.
In the spiritual state, in a general sense, the dependancy will be upon a spiritual teacher type to provide answers that the Soul is seeking. In the other exterme the Soul act as a spiritual teacher type who manipulates others who are uncounsciously seeking such advice in thw ways allready described. The point within this is to embrace the 1st house or Aries polarity point in order to discover/recover the Soul's instrisinic identitiy indepndant from any relationship. In the spiritual state the Soull cannot be dependant upon any spiritual teacher/group in the ways described above, and must independantly act upon the need to spiritualize. This will transform the individual's orientation and approuch to groups and teachers of this nature so the individual can particiapte as an equal if communities of like minded others are sought out.
The example you gave is certainly an extreme and I do not know alot about him as an individual but feel that what you are saying about him is correct. I hope others can provide more info about him.
Hope this helps.
Deva
So...it's almost impossible for a 7th house Pluto not to be involved in relationships of this nature unless in higher spiritual states? So more than likley I won't be happy sitting on a mountain top by myself meditating for a couple years alone unless I'm with a group of like minded souls. Even then the dynamics of learning from relationships will still be present as we each have our soul work to do. Or if I was able to be alone for a while someone would find me!;) I think I am finally understanding.
QuoteThe point within this is to embrace the 1st house or Aries polarity point in order to discover/recover the Soul's instrisinic identitiy indepndant from any relationship. In the spiritual state the Soull cannot be dependant upon any spiritual teacher/group in the ways described above, and must independantly act upon the need to spiritualize. This will transform the individual's orientation and approuch to groups and teachers of this nature so the individual can particiapte as an equal if communities of like minded others are sought out.
Would this type of soul have more aspects in the first house/polarity to pull away from the Pluto position?
Michelle
http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Jones%2C_Jim
This is a link to Jim Jones- Source Lois Rodden
7th house Pluto in Cancer
Alan Watts is another example used in Pluto Vol.1
Hi Michelle
QuoteSo...it's almost impossible for a 7th house Pluto not to be involved in relationships of this nature unless in higher spiritual states? So more than likley I won't be happy sitting on a mountain top by myself meditating for a couple years alone unless I'm with a group of like minded souls. Even then the dynamics of learning from relationships will still be present as we each have our soul work to do. Or if I was able to be alone for a while someone would find me!;) I think I am finally understanding.
Quote
The point within this is to embrace the 1st house or Aries polarity point in order to discover/recover the Soul's instrisinic identitiy indepndant from any relationship. In the spiritual state the Soull cannot be dependant upon any spiritual teacher/group in the ways described above, and must independantly act upon the need to spiritualize. This will transform the individual's orientation and approuch to groups and teachers of this nature so the individual can particiapte as an equal if communities of like minded others are sought out.
The issue is not to have no further relationships, but learning to have relationship
in a new way. The 7th house or Libra person, when in relationships, has a tendency to
lose self in those relationships - to assign too much importance to "the other" and lose focus on self. Libra represents projection, the outpicturing of our own inner states/dynamics onto others, with all the associated expectations and agendas, both from the person onto their partners, and vice versa. Thus you see the conditions which lead to the losing of Self. The Soul (Pluto) forgets what it is experiencing through those partners (7th house) is actually its own self and stuff - that means getting pulled as far away from self as one can possibly get - 180 degrees.
Libra also represents extremes (seeking balance) so it would be typical for a 7th house Pluto who is deeply enmeshed in relationship consciousness to envision going 180 degrees in the other direction and just being alone on the mountaintop. There is plenty to be said for being alone on the mountaintop, but it won't work if its going to swing from one extreme to the other - its just the mirror image of the same thing. The soul is actually seeking the balance - what is the appropriate balance between aloneness and togetherness. In the beginning stages of becoming aware of the existing imbalance, a lot of time alone is often a good things. But the lessons to be learned do relate to relationship (both with self and others), so relationships will come back into the picture, but in a new way, where the soul is beginning to learn not to lose itself in them. To maintain autonomy, to know when its time to leave the partner and go home for a while, so to speak.
A 7th house Pluto is so used to being in relationships that thoughts of having to be alone are often not pleasant thoughts. Yet at the same time that Soul knows its growth lies exactly there (1st house polarity), so another part of that Soul welcomes the experience and actually finds relief there.
QuoteWould this type of soul have more aspects in the first house/polarity to pull away from the Pluto position?
That often occurs but there is no hard and fast rule that applies to all Souls. Taurus/2nd is another symbol one often sees in charts of people like this, the need to become self-sustaining and self-reliant, not dependent. Or Cancer/Cap. 4th/10th, (squaring 1/7) the need to take responsibility for their own emotional states, to realize their security is actually internal, only appears to be in a partner.
Steve
Hi,
Rad, thanks for the clarification-this building block approach does make more sense than fragmented potential chaos in following multiple threads.
Michelle, thanks for sharing-and everyone else.
I've found the discussion of the chamellion aspect of pluto in the 7th personally interesting in light of also having a 7th house pluto from the pluto libra gen. Along with north node libra 7th, and pisces rising, venus and moon in first +many neptune aspects and midpoints, ...no doubt the levels of objectivity to see to the core of this chamellion dynamic-not ever understanding its link to a 7th house pluto til now. Wow! It makes more sense-another missing piece to the puzzle.
The struggle to be alone or in relationship for the seventh house pluto is interesting. At some point, I decided I was becoming a serial monogamist.
Right now, I'm meditating on this question of: How does this manifest differently-pluto 7th for a herd state vs. the idividuated-->spiritual as discussed earlier in regards to in our American culture right now?
Is there an internal conflict with the herd state pluto 7th between what our culture teaches what relationship should be vs. what is actually happening/ed in their life. Or, is it that there is simply not so much interest to the whys of the reality that they are experiencing and living?
Blessings,
Bradley J
Hi Bradley, thanks for the question. In the herd state, the 7th house Pluto person would simply "echo" or conform to the mainstream expectations of what relationships "should be" from a cultural standpoint. If the prevailing norm in the culture is for men/women to relate to each other in specific ways then the herd state 7th house person will unconsciously expect conformity to these socially accepted ways of behavior. In the individuated state, the 7th house Pluto person will be desiring to liberate from these conformity patterns in order to actualize his/her inherent individuality within relationships. The problem within this is that commonly the individual is deeply insecure as to the individuated process, and is dependant upon a partner/relationship for a sense of identity and security. In other words, the person will be unconsciously seeking another who will provide emotional security to feel ok about simply being different and the need to individuate. The chameleon archetype would then manifest as adapting to the expectations of others to be different from others or rebel in certain ways even if it does not reflect the Soul's true individuality. In other words, the individual will unconsciously fulfill the other person's expectations of this nature and loose his or her own sense of individuality by acting in this way.
Re: PLUTO 7TH HOUSE
Wow, this is great! Thanks everyone.
I feel like we are close to taking the next step and putting the nodes in a house placemet.
With Stephen(post 56), Linda(post 60), Michelle(post 95), Deva(post 97,100, & previous), and Steve's posts 103 &105 we have beautifully reached the heart/bottom line of pluto in the 7th.
Rad & Deva: Do you sense there is any other aspects we should discuss before we build off of this foundation?
Hi Bradley, et all
Ok, let's move forwards with this 7th House Pluto and now put the S.Node in the 9th House, and make the evolutionary condition somewhere towards the beginning of the 1st stage individuated. So we now have a 7th House Pluto, it's polarity point in the 1st, S.Node in the 9th, N.Node in the 3rd. Beginning of 1st Stage Individuated.
Let's have a go of it ..........
Rad
At the initial processing of this set up(pluto 7th w/south node 9th coming into individuated), it is hard for me to think of scenarios in which the individual would not be in the more dominant role in relationship initially/early in life.
I'd speculate that they are at the start of owning their own belief set/life philosophy. Perhaps they have a strong personal perspective of the cultural philosophies in which they grew up in or in the recent karmic past had come in contact with influential relationships which broke them out of the "herd state's philosophical paradigm."
In either case, their own philosophies and points of view would carry a lot of weight in how relationship dynamics would play out. This is where it leads me to think of this carrying into relationship in such a way where I don't see them initially choosing partners that challenge their beliefs. (If someone could explain otherwise, please do) They would naturally feel more comfortable in relationships where the partner is acknowledging and praising their perspective.
This would set up a evolutionary dynamic where the individual would not continue to evolve as long as they continue as just the "teacher" in the relationships in their life. If they do not realize on their own the need to really do more than just hear others, the cataclysmic plutonian event would eventually come where they would be humbled into the student role.
Ultimately, it would be in their own interest to not invest so much energy into others perspectives; and learn to take that energy to develope the self.
Once they learn to go beyond their judgement vision and begin to listen knowing deep within that what another speaks may very well be complete truth for them, they will learn this lesson of how to really really support those around them in their life.
In a healthy state, a cultivated north node 3rd, this person would certainly become celebrated for holding a larger vision while allowing others visions and perspectives valid space.
When they know in their heart that they need not be "right" in relationship, they will begin to liberate themselves to develope their own self.
What do you think??
Coming into first stage individuated relative to Pluto in the 7th NN in the 9th. I think this soul would come from a past of relating to others through higher institutions of learning, or through being exposed to differing cultures. Because they are new in the first stage of individuated they will still struggle with belief systems and knowing what their truth is versus others. They are expanding their consciousness. Maybe going back in forth between philosophical views. They connect to others in education, religion or cultural systems sometimes attracted to teachers that they learn from or looking for teachers.
They are learning duality,that two people can have different philosophys and both be right. Learning the karma of truth. When this is taken back to the 7th I could see the shifting that would go on between Not this, not that as they are learning who they are, what their truth is.
Humor may be involved,a gift they carry in relating to others.
Bradley
Quote from: Bradley J on Aug 19, 2009, 11:24 PM
At the initial processing of this set up(pluto 7th w/south node 9th coming into individuated), it is hard for me to think of scenarios in which the individual would not be in the more dominant role in relationship initially/early in life.
***************************************************************************
At this stage of evolution, just moving into the 1st Stage individuated, the Soul is in a natural QUESTIONING mode Bradley. And because they are questioning the 'nature of things' as a reaction to where they have been, the consensus agreements of what 'reality' is as defined by consensus 'beliefs', including the beliefs that define for the consensus how we are 'supposed' to be in relationships, it is this questioning that would correlate to a Soul THAT IN NOT IN A DOMINATE POSITION within their relationship formations. Quite the opposite: the questioning would correlate to desiring to forming relationships with all kinds of folks who have themselves evolved beyond the consensus and have become INDEPENDENT THINKERS about the nature of everything, including the very nature of life itself. This of course reflects their own N.Node in the 1st House, and the questioning of everything reflects not only their own S.Node in the 9th..i.e. beliefs systems.., but of course their own N.Node in the 3rd: the diversity of belief systems all over the world. So because of this stage of evolution, just moving into the 1st Stage individuated, it is much more common for the Soul to become DEPENDENT on these types of relationships in which THEY ARE LEARNING FROM OTHERS because of their own evolutionary desire to evolve beyond the consensus.
************************************************************************
I'd speculate that they are at the start of owning their own belief set/life philosophy. Perhaps they have a strong personal perspective of the cultural philosophies in which they grew up in or in the recent karmic past had come in contact with influential relationships which broke them out of the "herd state's philosophical paradigm."
**************************************************************************
This is true. But you don't need to speculate: it comes with this stage of evolution within these symbols. That is indeed the beauty of EA once properly understood.
****************************************************************************
In either case, their own philosophies and points of view would carry a lot of weight in how relationship dynamics would play out. This is where it leads me to think of this carrying into relationship in such a way where I don't see them initially choosing partners that challenge their beliefs. (If someone could explain otherwise, please do) They would naturally feel more comfortable in relationships where the partner is acknowledging and praising their perspective.
************************************************************************
Not so, see above
**************************************************************************
This would set up a evolutionary dynamic where the individual would not continue to evolve as long as they continue as just the "teacher" in the relationships in their life. If they do not realize on their own the need to really do more than just hear others, the cataclysmic plutonian event would eventually come where they would be humbled into the student role.
***************************************************************************
That very thing, indeed, has happened prior to this life while in the consensus state which is why there are now where they are as specified above ...........
*****************************************************************************
Ultimately, it would be in their own interest to not invest so much energy into others perspectives; and learn to take that energy to develope the self.
Once they learn to go beyond their judgement vision and begin to listen knowing deep within that what another speaks may very well be complete truth for them, they will learn this lesson of how to really really support those around them in their life.
In a healthy state, a cultivated north node 3rd, this person would certainly become celebrated for holding a larger vision while allowing others visions and perspectives valid space.
When they know in their heart that they need not be "right" in relationship, they will begin to liberate themselves to develope their own self.
*************************************************************************
This part is very accurate .............................
************************************************************************
What do you think??
***********************************************************************
Think you did a very good first effort ..................................
Rad
Michelle,
Quote from: Michelle on Aug 20, 2009, 07:39 AM
Coming into first stage individuated relative to Pluto in the 7th NN in the 9th. I think this soul would come from a past of relating to others through higher institutions of learning, or through being exposed to differing cultures. Because they are new in the first stage of individuated they will still struggle with belief systems and knowing what their truth is versus others. They are expanding their consciousness. Maybe going back in forth between philosophical views. They connect to others in education, religion or cultural systems sometimes attracted to teachers that they learn from or looking for teachers.
They are learning duality,that two people can have different philosophys and both be right. Learning the karma of truth. When this is taken back to the 7th I could see the shifting that would go on between Not this, not that as they are learning who they are, what their truth is.
Humor may be involved,a gift they carry in relating to others.
What you have written is true, but very ,very brief in terms of the whole of what these evolutionary symbols mean. Perhaps you can expand on this ?
Rad
Thank you.
So, would this seeking out of teachers combined with a pluto 7th natural ability to unconsciously fulfilling anothers needs in relationship, in this case a teacher type, lead to potential cyclic tensions within the relationships with teachers at this early individuated stage because there is this "sampling" of other philosophies. And, so at the point where the teacher's role is fulfilled for the individual, the teacher may not be ready to lose the student, but the student is ready to move on, yet has a challenge to break out of this habit of pleasing/fulfilling the others percieved needs?
Does this question make sense?
Hi, I wanted to add some input to your question, Bradley. In the individuated state, the person will be desiring to liberate from a teacher/student relationship, and deeply question the beliefs that are socially accepted and have been gravitated to prior to the current life in order for this individuation process to manifest. In other words, it is absolutely necessary that the Soul question/confront those that would attempt to impose his or beliefs on the individual and restrict individual expression/questioning of those beliefs (Pluto in the 7th house, SN in the 9th house). In fact, in this state the person will respect the individual beliefs of other people, and naturally gravitate to others who are orientated in the same way. So, yes, potentially, confrontations with authoritarian teacher types can occur as a reflection of the individuation process that Soul is seeking to actualize. The teacher type, in his or her own evolutionary state, may not be able to embrace these evolving needs of the 7th house person and that will require a break of the relationship (1st house polarity point).
In your reply, Rad, you said: "So because of this stage of evolution, just moving into the 1st Stage individuated, it is much more common for the Soul to become DEPENDENT on these types of relationships in which THEY ARE LEARNING FROM OTHERS because of their own evolutionary desire to evolve beyond the consensus."
I'm wondering to what extent souls coming into the individuated state are learning from others because of their own evolutionary desires to evolve beyond consensus?
To clarify this question, one can read this and think-"Oh, all souls in this state are learning from others to evolve" or is this comment truely specific to a pluto 7th w/S.Node in 9th?
A separate thought, Michelle made comment of the contacts with higher education and other cultures.
This also got me thinking about the 9th house ties with travel.
Can we know that this cataclysmic plutonian event that has propelled them out of the herd state is from their past travels and exposure to new paradigms and perspectives on reality?
Or could all the same have occured because of the studies that were underway?
And, finally, I often see the ninth house as a house of leadership. If this is true, could this past plutonian event have also potentially manifested within past relationships from something that came up while being a teacher/leader within the herd consensus reality?
Re: Pluto 7th w/s.n. 9th:
I realize now that my last series of questions brings up this line in the sand of "How much do we know for sure with only these 3 pieces of information-pluto by house, nodal houses, and evolutionary state"
This is the beauty of the practice charts thread.
Certainly, the last 3 questions I asked were attempts to reach the heart of the karmic past that would need the details of the rest of the chart to paint the full picture.
And so, I find this really interesting that there are specifics that we can know(in the broader sense) with the details to be filled in with the rest of the information.
So, on one hand, you could say-well, yes, all three of these conditions were possibly the situations that led up to the plutonian event that transformed the soul beyond the herd state.
Is the intention here to, as clear as we can, stay within what we can say for sure?
Is creating a list of what may have happened in the karmic past helpful or does it dissolve the core of what we want to know for sure?
Are we going for a "In the past karmic situations with pluto in 7th, s.n 9th in early individuated state, the karmic situations leading up to evolutionary events would have been this, or this, or this, or that. And, in this lifetime, to continue to evolve, the individual will be learning through situations like this, this, or ...."
I ask this with the intention of learning how to most functionally build off of the foundations of knowledge without going out on tangets(different threads) or straying to far from the bottom line that is most essential to know.
Thanks in advance,
Bradley J
Bradley,
Quote from: Bradley J on Aug 22, 2009, 04:09 PM
In your reply, Rad, you said: "So because of this stage of evolution, just moving into the 1st Stage individuated, it is much more common for the Soul to become DEPENDENT on these types of relationships in which THEY ARE LEARNING FROM OTHERS because of their own evolutionary desire to evolve beyond the consensus."
I'm wondering to what extent souls coming into the individuated state are learning from others because of their own evolutionary desires to evolve beyond consensus?
To clarify this question, one can read this and think-"Oh, all souls in this state are learning from others to evolve" or is this comment truely specific to a pluto 7th w/S.Node in 9th?
****************************************************************************
It's specific to this signature in that they NATURE of the questions within them that correlate to evolving beyond the consensus state are philosophical in nature: philosophies equal beliefs which in turn determine how we 'interpret' reality, which in determines the meaning and values that we project on the phenomena of life itself, which in turn determine our inner relationship to ourselves. This is the very essence of a Soul with this signature. So such a Soul will be asking all kinds of questions, pondering all kinds of things, that relate to this which serves as the determinant of the types of relationships that they initiate with others.
***************************************************************************
A separate thought, Michelle made comment of the contacts with higher education and other cultures.
This also got me thinking about the 9th house ties with travel.
Can we know that this cataclysmic plutonian event that has propelled them out of the herd state is from their past travels and exposure to new paradigms and perspectives on reality? Or could all the same have occured because of the studies that were underway?
*************************************************************************
We can know that that is a possibility. It's just as possible, given the limited symbols so far, that the Soul created 'inner travel' that has lead to increasing alienation from the consensus. And that that alienation itself lead to a cataclysmic event in a recent prior life leading to the current life.
*************************************************************************
And, finally, I often see the ninth house as a house of leadership. If this is true, could this past plutonian event have also potentially manifested within past relationships from something that came up while being a teacher/leader within the herd consensus reality?
************************************************************************
Yes, that is a possibility.
Rad
Bradley,
Quote from: Bradley J on Aug 23, 2009, 05:03 PM
Re: Pluto 7th w/s.n. 9th:
I realize now that my last series of questions brings up this line in the sand of "How much do we know for sure with only these 3 pieces of information-pluto by house, nodal houses, and evolutionary state"
This is the beauty of the practice charts thread.
Certainly, the last 3 questions I asked were attempts to reach the heart of the karmic past that would need the details of the rest of the chart to paint the full picture.
And so, I find this really interesting that there are specifics that we can know(in the broader sense) with the details to be filled in with the rest of the information.
So, on one hand, you could say-well, yes, all three of these conditions were possibly the situations that led up to the plutonian event that transformed the soul beyond the herd state.
Is the intention here to, as clear as we can, stay within what we can say for sure?
*****************************************************************************
Yes, and that is determined by the nature of the archetypes themselves.
*****************************************************************************
Is creating a list of what may have happened in the karmic past helpful or does it dissolve the core of what we want to know for sure?
Are we going for a "In the past karmic situations with pluto in 7th, s.n 9th in early individuated state, the karmic situations leading up to evolutionary events would have been this, or this, or this, or that. And, in this lifetime, to continue to evolve, the individual will be learning through situations like this, this, or ...."
I ask this with the intention of learning how to most functionally build off of the foundations of knowledge without going out on tangets(different threads) or straying to far from the bottom line that is most essential to know.
***************************************************************************
If you stay within the archetypes themselves, relative to evolutionary states, once the whole chart is seen as a whole, inductive logic, going off in tangents will not occur. Making up lists of possibilities is not necessary. It is necessary to understand the totality of the archetypes though. Each archetype has a SPECTRUM within them that symbolizes the entire archetype. Once those archetypes are totally understood then the specific EA signatures in each chart becomes the determinant of where, how, and why this or that part of the archetypes in question have been the defining archetypes in each Soul relative to their own individual evolutionary journey back to God'ess.
***************************************************************************
Thanks in advance,
Bradley J
Rad
Hi all,
Thank you for continuing this thread. I am an uber beginner who continues to absorb this information with much interest...hopefully at some point I'll be able to contribute! With gratitude, Heather
Pluto 7th w/s.n. 9th again: Here's another re-hashing to place the emphasis in the right places.
In reviewing my posts, I'm sensing that the bottom line for a 7th house Pluto has lost a bit of its essence in integrating the nodes.
One born with Pluto in the 7th and south node in the 9th in the early stages of the individuated evolutionary state feels, like all 7th house pluto's, more comfortable and secure in relationships. This has come from a place of gaining a lot of learning thru many relationships in the past. A common theme in these relationships was a connection to beliefs and philosophies of life.
Through these past relationships, the individual went through experience(s) that awakened a new perspective and philosophy about life that was much different than the herd state's consensus reality in the previous life. This/these relationship(s) may have been involved with religion, education, or simply philosophical discussions of life perspectives.
Coming into this life strongly colored by new beliefs and ego perspectives, the individual is also has natural tendency to carry judgement into relationships regarding other's lives, choices and perspectives. This tendency is extreme. In it's shadow manifestation, it represents holding onto relationships with those who only support their views/philosophy etc.
In this life time this individual's evolutionary path is to develope themselves, a journey that begins within the self, not the other. How can they do this? By cultivating the ability to be a student of life, being open to hearing their self, awakening their own personal discovery through mind's contact with more information without carrying in prejudgements.
Once they learn to develope their self through feeding their own mind with inquiry and self discovery, they will be able to enter into relationship in a evolved healthy balanced sense. At this point, they can truely hear their partner/others.
The separating desires in this archetypal signature manifest in holding onto the security of shared views from relationships that they learned from and projecting these onto experiences leading to a blind which blocks the view of truely seeing where to focus their attention-their self.
The soul's desire to return to the source here would be seen as the individual learns to form a relationship with their self first. We'd observe a healthy balance of meeting their partner's needs as well as their own.
We'd see honest check in's and healthy communication that isn't laden with pre-existing judgement. The result would certainly be the beauty of blossoming growth in both the individual and their ability to speak for themselves and communicate in a fair give and take with support to others as well as their own self; ultimately leading to a death of the old relationship ways and a rebirth of a new approach to all of life.
Bradley
Quote from: Bradley J on Aug 25, 2009, 06:45 AM
Pluto 7th w/s.n. 9th again: Here's another re-hashing to place the emphasis in the right places.
In reviewing my posts, I'm sensing that the bottom line for a 7th house Pluto has lost a bit of its essence in integrating the nodes.
One born with Pluto in the 7th and south node in the 9th in the early stages of the individuated evolutionary state feels, like all 7th house pluto's, more comfortable and secure in relationships. This has come from a place of gaining a lot of learning thru many relationships in the past. A common theme in these relationships was a connection to beliefs and philosophies of life.
Through these past relationships, the individual went through experience(s) that awakened a new perspective and philosophy about life that was much different than the herd state's consensus reality in the previous life. This/these relationship(s) may have been involved with religion, education, or simply philosophical discussions of life perspectives.
Coming into this life strongly colored by new beliefs and ego perspectives, the individual is also has natural tendency to carry judgement into relationships regarding other's lives, choices and perspectives. This tendency is extreme. In it's shadow manifestation, it represents holding onto relationships with those who only support their views/philosophy etc.
***************************************************************************
No, there is no natural tendency to carry judgments into relationships regarding other's lives, etc. Quite the opposite: the 7th House is a natural archetype of relativity, the relativity of everything including values and belief systems of all kinds. Even though the person them self may have their own philosophy or beliefs, values, about something they can always understand and accept the values, beliefs, etc of others even if they don't hold to them them self. This is made more true by the fact of the S.Node in the 9th. The key to this is the evolutionary stage in our example: moving into the individuated.
If we were using an example of a Pluto in the 7th, and a S.Node in the 10th, and the evolutionary condition was within the consensus state, then this issue of judgments would be accurate. The 7th House is also an archetype of extremes. Thus, in this signature you could see through the symbolism the extremity of judgments projected on others where those judgments were extensions of not only the consensus of the society that they lived within, but also shared by their partner. So even though the 7th House is an archetype of relativity that relativity would be judged from within the person, and their partner, as threatening, Pluto, to their own reality as individuals, and thus their marriage:
***********************************************************************
In this life time this individual's evolutionary path is to develope themselves, a journey that begins within the self, not the other. How can they do this? By cultivating the ability to be a student of life, being open to hearing their self, awakening their own personal discovery through mind's contact with more information without carrying in prejudgements.
***************************************************************************
Again, with Pluto in the 7th, S.Node in the 9th, the issue of 'prejudgments' does not exist. They are wide open to all kinds of new ways of thinking and understanding the phenomena of life.
***************************************************************************
Once they learn to develope their self through feeding their own mind with inquiry and self discovery, they will be able to enter into relationship in a evolved healthy balanced sense. At this point, they can truely hear their partner/others.
***************************************************************************
The 7th House, and the nature of Venus, both correlate to the psychology of hearing. Thus, with the 7th House Pluto is place, for lifetimes, they have already learned to 'hear' others in general relative to the realities of those others AS THEY EXIST FOR THEM. So much so that they need to learn how to listen or hear themselves from within: the intention of the polarity point of the 7th House Pluto: the 1st House.
*****************************************************************************
The separating desires in this archetypal signature manifest in holding onto the security of shared views from relationships that they learned from and projecting these onto experiences leading to a blind which blocks the view of truely seeing where to focus their attention-their self.
The soul's desire to return to the source here would be seen as the individual learns to form a relationship with their self first. We'd observe a healthy balance of meeting their partner's needs as well as their own.
We'd see honest check in's and healthy communication that isn't laden with pre-existing judgement. The result would certainly be the beauty of blossoming growth in both the individual and their ability to speak for themselves and communicate in a fair give and take with support to others as well as their own self; ultimately leading to a death of the old relationship ways and a rebirth of a new approach to all of life.
**************************************************************************
Ok............they will also learn to ASK AND ANSWER THEIR OWN QUESTIONS. They will evolve in such a way that their attitude towards a relationship will be: I want to be with you versus I need to be with you. And that will also be the key to their partner: wanting versus needing.
Rad
Rad, thanks again. Truely grateful for this learning experience.
One thing that came to me was the journaling as a means for one with this signature to learn to listen to their self. Or perhaps conversations with their self.
Continuing to meditate on this all,
Bradley J
Sorry I have taken so long to respond, working alot. I will try to add more to my thoughts....
Coming into first stage individuated relative to Pluto in the 7th NN in the 9th. I think this soul would come from a past of relating to others through higher institutions of learning, or through being exposed to differing cultures.
Coming in from past life of being Educated maybe formally through institutions such as universities(teachers) or maybe taught through a tribe, family/cultural type situation (spiritual/religous teachings maybe even arts of sorts).Question? Would this person come in confussed because of being involved in other cultures and then not feeling they belong to the one they are in? So the search begins to belong and understand?
**********************************************************************
Because they are new in the first stage of individuated they will still struggle with belief systems and knowing what their truth is versus others. They are expanding their consciousness. Maybe going back in forth between philosophical views. They connect to others in education, religion or cultural systems sometimes attracted to teachers that they learn from or looking for teachers.
Pluto in the 7th and the core of the soul needing to be needed, connecting to the 9th house SN there is an inner instinct, a need for freedom to explore and understand what makes others the way they are, why do they believe what they believe and bringing this back to the 7th house Pluto they are learning who they are as an individual ( Polarity Point Aries) as they compare themselves to others. They are breaking away from the consensuses values and beliefs but are still unsure of who they are as they interact with new information they get out in the world. It seems to me they will still be connected to the consensuses life they came from because they still need to be needed and accepted, plus this is what they have learned in the past so they understand and relate with those that are in the stage they came from??( Is this right) still they desire to break free..They haven't fully developed independence as they are still in first stage individuated. With the SN in the 9th they may be learning from books first and then joining groups to step out of their comfort zone and take that 9th house leap of faith. They may be exposed to other cultures just by going to another part of the city where different types of people hang out or joining a new spiritual group. As they connect with others and form relationships with others of different lifestyles and cultures they expand their consciousness, they explore new ideas and belief systems and start to define what they believe and don't believe. ex: I have a friend that sky dives and he met people from all over the world right here in Tucson...this expanded his acceptance of others and other cultures. He has SN in the 9th house .
This is helpful in developing the 7th house lessons of equality, relativity, and listening. They are learning how to listen to others reality as it exist for them.
******************************************************************************
They are learning duality,that two people can have different philosophy's and both be right. Learning the karma of truth. When this is taken back to the 7th I could see the shifting that would go on between Not this, not that as they are learning who they are, what their truth is.
Humor may be involved,a gift they carry in relating to others
I just thought of something Steve wrote about the extremes of the 7th house Pluto....I can see extremes in trying on different beliefs as they form relationships with different people/teachers/careers/cultures. After they loose themselves in what ever it is they have connected to and then they move towards the Polarity point Aries, they may have major changes of starting and stopping what they are involved in. I can imagine this would cause extreme confusion and disillusionment of what the truth is relative to the relationships, teachers and beliefs they have been exposed to. It seems to me they may take big leaps and have a lot of enthusiasm for what they find in the beginning and then take big falls as they realize this is not their truth but some other point of view that is just part of the universal whole. I think this would create an isolation type feeling and as they still need to be needed the search for that need starts again??? They are also learning balance and equality as these extremes lead them back to themselves.
I just read through the previous post by Bradley and Rad and see that much of what I ask or said has all ready been answered! ::)
The following can be plugged into a few areas where I am talking:
Quote It's specific to this signature in that they NATURE of the questions within them that correlate to evolving beyond the consensus state are philosophical in nature: philosophies equal beliefs which in turn determine how we 'interpret' reality, which in determines the meaning and values that we project on the phenomena of life itself, which in turn determine our inner relationship to ourselves. This is the very essence of a Soul with this signature. So such a Soul will be asking all kinds of questions, pondering all kinds of things, that relate to this which serves as the determinant of the types of relationships that they initiate with others.
***************************************************************************
A separate thought, Michelle made comment of the contacts with higher education and other cultures.
This also got me thinking about the 9th house ties with travel.
Can we know that this cataclysmic plutonian event that has propelled them out of the herd state is from their past travels and exposure to new paradigms and perspectives on reality? Or could all the same have occured because of the studies that were underway?
*************************************************************************
We can know that that is a possibility. It's just as possible, given the limited symbols so far, that the Soul created 'inner travel' that has lead to increasing alienation from the consensus. And that that alienation itself lead to a cataclysmic event in a recent prior life leading to the current life.
Plus all the other great information...this is a challenge to get it all out there and put it together. Thanks so much for this valuable lesson.
Peace,
Michelle
One more thing..... ;)
I noticed again Jim Jones chart has 7th house Pluto with a 9th house SN. This is an example of the negative manifestation of this combination. Sorry I'm obsessed with him but I saw this movie as a kid and he really freaked me out. Weird that hes 7th house Pluto??? If your interested I have post info. about him. His chart is in Pluto 1, 7th house examples.
Jim Jones
Photo credit: The Jonestown Institute
Born James Warren Jones
May 13, 1931(1931-05-13)
Crete, Indiana, U.S.
Died November 18, 1978 (aged 47)
Jonestown, Guyana
Occupation Leader, Peoples Temple
Background of the Peoples Temple:
This was a Christian destructive, doomsday cult founded and led by James Warren Jones (1931-1978). Jim Jones held degrees from Indiana University and Butler University. He was not a Fundamentalist pastor as many reports in the media and the anti-cult movement claim. He belonged to a mainline Christian denomination, having been ordained in the Christian Church/Disciples of Christ. (At the time of his ordination, the DoC allowed a local congregation to select and ordain a minister on their own. However, ordinations conducted without denominational endorsement were not considered valid within the rest of the church.)
The Peoples Temple was initially structured as an inter-racial mission for the sick, homeless and jobless. He assembled a large following of over 900 members in Indianapolis IN during the 1950's.
"He preached a 'social gospel' of human freedom, equality, and love, which required helping the least and the lowliest of society's members. Later on, however, this gospel became explicitly socialistic, or communistic in Jones' own view, and the hypocrisy of white Christianity was ridiculed while 'apostolic socialism' was preached." 1
It was an interracial congregation -- almost unheard of in Indiana at the time. When a government investigation began into his cures for cancer, heart disease and arthritis, he decided to move the group to Ukiah in Northern California. He preached the imminent end of the world in a nuclear war; Esquire magazine listed Ukiah as one of nine in the U.S. that cold survive a nuclear attack. They later moved to San Francisco and Los Angeles. After an expose during the mid 1970's in the magazine New West raised suspicions of illegal activities within the Temple, he moved some of the Temple membership to Jonestown, Guyana. The Temple had leased almost 4,000 acres of dense jungle from the government. They established an agricultural cooperative there, called the "Peoples Temple Agricultural Project." They raised animals for food, and assorted tropical fruits and vegetables for consumption and sale.
Jones developed a belief called Translation in which he and his followers would all die together, and would move to another planet for a life of bliss. Mass suicides were practiced in which his followers pretended to drink poison and fell to the ground.
During the late 1970's, Jones had been abusing prescription drugs and appears to have become increasingly paranoid. Rumors of human rights abuses circulated. As in most high-intensity religious groups, there was a considerable flow of people joining and leaving the group. Tim Stoen, the Temple attorney and right-hand man to Jones left to form a group called Concerned Relatives. They claimed that Jonestown was being run like a concentration camp, and that people were being held there against their will.
These concerns motivated Leo Ryan, a Congressman, to visit Jonestown in 1978-NOV for a personal inspection. At first, the visit went well. Later, on NOV-18, about 16 Temple members decided that they wanted to leave Jonestown with the visitors. This came as quite a blow to both Jones and the rest of the project. While Ryan and the others were waiting at Port Kiatuma airfield, the local airstrip, some heavily armed members of the Temple's security guards arrived and started shooting. Congressman Ryan and four others were killed; three were members of the press; the other was a person from Jonestown who wanted to leave. 11 were wounded.
Fearing retribution, the project members discuss their options. They reach a consensus to commit group suicide. Most appear to have committed suicide by drinking a grape drink laced with cyanide and a number of sedatives, including liquid Valium, Penegram and chloral hydrate. Some sources say it was Kool-Aid; others say FlaVor-Aid®. Other victims appear to have been murdered by poison injection. The Guyanese coroner said that hundreds of bodies showed needle marks, indicating foul play. Still other victims were shot. A very few fled into the jungle and survived.
In all, 914 died: 638 adults and 276 children. Some sources say 911 died. Their bodies were in a state of extensive decay when the authorities arrived. There was no time to conduct a thorough investigation. TV station KTVU in San Francisco CA has a collection of photographs of the "Peoples temple Agricultural Project." Some are quite disturbing. Unfortunately, their web site implies that all of the dead committed suicide. 14
The Peoples Temple organization did not survive the mass suicide/murder in Guyana. Their former headquarters building in San Francisco was demolished by the Loma Prieta earthquake of 1989.
Michelle,
Quote from: Michelle on Aug 25, 2009, 02:46 PM
Sorry I have taken so long to respond, working alot. I will try to add more to my thoughts....
Coming into first stage individuated relative to Pluto in the 7th NN in the 9th. I think this soul would come from a past of relating to others through higher institutions of learning, or through being exposed to differing cultures.
Coming in from past life of being Educated maybe formally through institutions such as universities(teachers) or maybe taught through a tribe, family/cultural type situation (spiritual/religous teachings maybe even arts of sorts).Question? Would this person come in confussed because of being involved in other cultures and then not feeling they belong to the one they are in? So the search begins to belong and understand?
**************************************************************************
Yes, and that confusion reflects a core ALIENATION from the existing society/ tribe of birth UNLESS they are born into a culture that is defined by NATURAL LAWS. Very few are anymore of course. The intent of the alienation, relative to any belief system, philosophy, or thought forms equaling moralities and the judgments that follow, is to have the Soul become realigned with all the natural laws of Nature that God/ess set in motion at the time of the Creation.
**********************************************************************
Because they are new in the first stage of individuated they will still struggle with belief systems and knowing what their truth is versus others. They are expanding their consciousness. Maybe going back in forth between philosophical views. They connect to others in education, religion or cultural systems sometimes attracted to teachers that they learn from or looking for teachers.
Pluto in the 7th and the core of the soul needing to be needed, connecting to the 9th house SN there is an inner instinct, a need for freedom to explore and understand what makes others the way they are, why do they believe what they believe and bringing this back to the 7th house Pluto they are learning who they are as an individual ( Polarity Point Aries) as they compare themselves to others. They are breaking away from the consensuses values and beliefs but are still unsure of who they are as they interact with new information they get out in the world. It seems to me they will still be connected to the consensuses life they came from because they still need to be needed and accepted, plus this is what they have learned in the past so they understand and relate with those that are in the stage they came from??
***************************************************************************
Yes, this is totally right. Typically, because of just evolving into the Individuated state, the Soul will create at double reality. The outer reality will look like a consensus reality, and the inner reality will be about who they actually are. This then induces, and reinforces, the alienation too because by creating the external appearance of normalcy they in effect create all kinds of circumstances and people that have zero idea of who they actually are within themselves. Thus, feeling not understood by most, the alienation that this creates is INTENTIONAL because it is then used to fuel the ongoing evolution of the individual away from the consensus and , ultimately, back to a state of natural law which includes the NATURAL TRUTH OF WHO THEY ARE AT A SOUL LEVEL.
*************************************************************************
( Is this right) still they desire to break free..They haven't fully developed independence as they are still in first stage individuated. With the SN in the 9th they may be learning from books first and then joining groups to step out of their comfort zone and take that 9th house leap of faith. They may be exposed to other cultures just by going to another part of the city where different types of people hang out or joining a new spiritual group. As they connect with others and form relationships with others of different lifestyles and cultures they expand their consciousness, they explore new ideas and belief systems and start to define what they believe and don't believe. ex: I have a friend that sky dives and he met people from all over the world right here in Tucson...this expanded his acceptance of others and other cultures. He has SN in the 9th house .
*************************************************************************
Yes, excellant
*************************************************************************
This is helpful in developing the 7th house lessons of equality, relativity, and listening. They are learning how to listen to others reality as it exist for them.
***************************************************************************
Yes ..................
******************************************************************************
They are learning duality,that two people can have different philosophy's and both be right. Learning the karma of truth. When this is taken back to the 7th I could see the shifting that would go on between Not this, not that as they are learning who they are, what their truth is.
Humor may be involved,a gift they carry in relating to others
**************************************************************************
Yes, and as they evolve through this state they will realize that all Souls must have the 'beliefs' that they have in any given life because of their own evolutionary condition and intentions which dictate those particular beliefs or philosophies.
*************************************************************************
I just thought of something Steve wrote about the extremes of the 7th house Pluto....I can see extremes in trying on different beliefs as they form relationships with different people/teachers/careers/cultures. After they loose themselves in what ever it is they have connected to and then they move towards the Polarity point Aries, they may have major changes of starting and stopping what they are involved in. I can imagine this would cause extreme confusion and disillusionment of what the truth is relative to the relationships, teachers and beliefs they have been exposed to. It seems to me they may take big leaps and have a lot of enthusiasm for what they find in the beginning and then take big falls as they realize this is not their truth but some other point of view that is just part of the universal whole. I think this would create an isolation type feeling and as they still need to be needed the search for that need starts again??? They are also learning balance and equality as these extremes lead them back to themselves.
*************************************************************************
Yes....................
Really, really good Michelle. High fives to you.
Rad
Rad,
I'll be sending my Pluto 7th/SN 9th practice in a day or two! Just studying it all thoroughly now. (This one's not an easy task, but it's great to learn how to do it!) Are we covering Pluto polarity 1st and NN 3rd as well in this session? Or later?
Linda.
Linda,
Quote from: Linda on Aug 27, 2009, 02:58 PM
Rad,
I'll be sending my Pluto 7th/SN 9th practice in a day or two! Just studying it all thoroughly now. (This one's not an easy task, but it's great to learn how to do it!) Are we covering Pluto polarity 1st and NN 3rd as well in this session? Or later?
Linda.
Ok, great. Been wondering where you have been. Yes, go ahead and include the N.Node in the 3rd, 1st House polarity of the 7th House Pluto. Bradley and Michelle if you would like to expand more also on these polarity points, please do. After this we will be adding more, i.e. the location of the planetary rulers of these Nodes.
Rad
hello all
i have repossessed my book. ive read up on 7h pluto and this thread.
For this soul just entering the individuated state, the individual is seeking a philosophy in life that is less about dogma and blind faith, and more about the intellect- the power of free thinking, questioning and reason.
the soul has created relationships with individuals that reflected back to the soul the very beliefs it has been liberating from. the soul has learned to set itself a part from those relationships and determine it's own thoughts about reality. in that sense, this soul has been learning to find a true balance between itself and others by not just settling for the prevailing beliefs of it's culture in order to be accepted by others. this soul is ready for a radically new approach to relationships!
DYNAMICS OF THIS CONFIGURATION:
There will be a natural tendency to set up relationships to teachers, teacher type people, or partners who seem to 'know' whats up. but the soul is thrown back on itself, continuously, each time it realizes that it has sacrificed it's own thoughts in order to be liked and approved of by these other people.
In particular, the experience of facing ideas that simply don't meet up with the reality that the individual is experiencing, forces that soul to re-evaluate the relationships it has created.
the experience of extremes is true for all 7th house pluto souls, sometimes being the submissive one, sometimes the dominant. i was wondering when our soul in question would take the role of the dominant. this is what i came up with:
when this soul is just beginning to reorient to society in a way that is radically different than EVERYONE around the individual (1st stage individuated), this person is likely to feel very alienated, and often feel like their beliefs aren't valid. it takes a lot of courage for this soul to honor their own experience of the truth and to stop comparing their outlook to everyone else.
however in the process, in order to convince them self of having it figured out, that is, in order to feel secure, the soul will create relationships with other confused souls that are on their way out of the consensus state, or new to the individuated state. in these kinds of relationships there is the potential for the soul to play the dominant- by exuding a particular philosophical clarity that provides guidance for their partner. this is in order to regain a sense of value and esteem. however, ultimately the unbalanced nature of their relationship, through whatever evolutionary experiences, will force the soul to question it's beliefs and open up to more ideas (3h nn).
The issue is- whether the soul is playing dominant or submissive role in relationship, the relationing tends to be dependent on principals that are adhered to as being TRUE. in this evolutionary state, these principals need to be questioned thoroughly...
and so the key to evolution is found in the nn in the 3rd- symbolizing the need to ask questions and exercise mental discrimination in order to test and measure any idea/belief or dogma. this will put the soul in greater communication and association with it's enviroment, to see relationships as an opportunity to LEARN and expand the knowledge. this is different than consistently trying to find THE answer and determine the truth. they will gradually attract more partners that are interested in dialogue and sharing- so long as they themselves are not overwhelmed with insecurity when other people have strong belief systems, or the opposite- take the role of teacher when others have a weak philosophical foundation. the challenge to question everything, to accept NOTHING until it is thoroughly examined.
basically, developing more objectivity is key for developing the ppp in order for this soul not to get stuck relationships in which certain ideas are assumed as a premise- thus sublimating any real learning and growth in the relationship.
this soul may find growth and self acceptance in writing opinion letters in the newspaper editorials, by engaging in dialogue with teachers professors, or finding new media for communication and learning. also valuable to question the assumed beliefs of their syblings, extened family, those who live in the same area. like one day responding to a religious comment made by their uncle and saying, "i dont beleive bla bla bla... ideas like that are the basis for.... and....".
is the next paragraph true for a first stage individuated soul?
all 7th house pluto souls are interested in accepting and understanding what makes another person's reality what it is. as this soul comes more into their own mental liberation, they will find more acceptance and peace with people who have radically different belief systems. they will understand that there's a reason why uncle believes they way he does- thus the ability to simultaneously respect where he is at, and wholeheartedly disagree. in this process, allowing anger to occur as a natural response to being treated unfairly is important. being comfortable with expressing their natural outrage at certain ideas implies they are not afraid of being rejected.
Thanks Michelle, Ari Moshe, Rad, and all.
I've been thinking about this concept of judgement that I brought in on a recent attempt-especially in regards to: Where did this concept come from for me?
My main conclusions are that I carry a belief that Sagittarius and Jupiter have a shadow achetype of being high-minded and self righteous and then applied this to the 9th and....etc.
This is great reprogramming and learning application.
Have you seen this as a common mis-interpretation of this 9th s.n. achetype?
It is also interesting that Libra is associated with desicion/judgement calls, and often the scales, justice, and the judge are all grouped with the archetype.
Can anyone speak to this regarding the perspective of evolutionary astrology and a 7th house pluto?
It is my understanding that we are talking about 7th house pluto's as having to face a lot of desicion around relationship, which is different than coming in with judgements.
This concept ties in with everyone's postings as to this individual (pluto 7/sn 9) having to face a lot of desicions revolving around beliefs and ideas that are incountered through relationships.
7th house Pluto - 9th house SN - beginning of 1st stage individuated
This individual will cease to feel "normal" in the mainstream of society - and this estrangement will be aggravated by his South Node in the 9th. He will try to compensate for this sense of alienation by trying to appear normal, by following a mainstream religion, or by going to university and undertaking a course of study that perhaps his parents would approved of, or by undertaking normal kinds of work, or by undertaking what is expected of him in his particular culture. Since his core orientation to life is the need for relationships, he may at first try to conform to the consensus idea of what relationships are about, or be involved in relationships that appear to be "normal" in his culture.
Depending on his culture, even while "living a lie" he will continue to be searching for truth and knowledge, from deep within and without, through higher learning, books, workshops, and of course seeking out partners of like-mind to unite with him in his search for truth. He will progressively distance himself from the consensus, but because he is at the very beginning of the 1st stage individuated, this progression could very well take many lifetimes. To some degree, it is unlikely that he will actualize individualistic work.
Since he has just entered the beginning of the 1st stage individuated, he has also taken a new step in his soul development. He could be karmically blocked from relating to others or to society, so therefore relationships could be approached in distorted or dysfunctional ways which relate to his Pluto 7th. This non-involvement with society could attract others similar to himself who are alienated from society, drifters, misfits, travellers, multi-cultural people, etc. He could take refuge in his own cherished beliefs and look down upon others in a self-righteous kind of way.
The karmic history or signature of the early 1st stage individuated + 7th house Pluto + 9th house SN shows how the desire and need for relationships has been fulfilled in the past. The evolutionary impulse of the 7th house Pluto is relatively new. His prior life soul intention was to learn lessons of equality and balance in relationships and the SN 9th describes the conscious mode of operation. He has a compulsive need to be involved in relationship, to unite his life with another in order to feel whole, that reflects his values and beliefs based on his idea of the truth. He will interpret natural laws according to his early 1st stage individuated evolutionary condition. He is searching for relationships that support the formulation of a comprehensive philosophical belief system.
He forms relationships through ideas that are not well-formed mixed in with consensus ideas of what relationships should be about. He will progressively become alienated with the mainstream ideas because they will not live up to his intuitive understanding of the truth of what relationships are about. He will eventually break free from stereotypical-type partners whom the mainstream would approve of, and pursue relationships that reflect his need for ongoing evolution and freedom.
He fulfils his 7th house desires by developing social values by interacting with a wide variety of people with whom he can share, compare and evaluate his ideas (which are probably quite dogmatic at the early 1st stage individuated). Due to the mutability factor, he would seek a variety of relationships because of his need for freedom and expansion. It is likely that he will debate and argue and try to convince others as to the "right" way, "his way", or the "only way" to the truth. Because of prior life identification with his own beliefs for security reasons, he will attract these confrontations with others.
The type of relationship that he attracts could be a traditional teacher-student one in a mainstream institution in order to expand his knowledge. He would attract powerful teacher-types who he felt held all the answers, and who he believed could help him in his intense search. The seeking of relationships through being a student is an old pattern; he could attract karmic relationships to past teachers or students. He could be the model student who plays back the right answers to the teacher, but progressively learns to think for himself, his true beliefs leaking through. As the feeling of alienation increases, he will seek the freedom to find teachers (or partners) who reflect the new growth. Transformation occurs via emotional shocks experienced in his friendships, relationships, and teacher-student relationships. He could also have the ability to take in new information via osmosis. Through Pluto's unearthing of hidden talents, he may discover new capacities within himself. For example, he may discover latent teaching skills that could be applied in an individualized way.
As he has a compelling need to discover who he is through others, he could become overly dependent on outside sources as a means of defining himself. He will absorb the different realities and different belief systems of others, so there is a great variety of stuff to sort through so as to integrate into his comprehensive belief system. He will begin to be exposed to new information that is foreign to his previous education and culture. He will unconsciously defend his old beliefs based on the past for security reasons, and face confrontations. As he continues to search and explore, he may very well have times when he is a loner. He finds it frustrating trying to express his intuitive knowledge and this reinforces his sense of alienation. He may not stay in one place or commit to one relationship long enough, but because his personal power and security lie in relationships, he will seek them out again.
Because of the compulsive need to compare and discover who he is through others, he may become attracted to very powerful, self-assured people who he perceives hold all the answers and who can guide him. In order to feel a validation of the self, he would adopt the partner's views and beliefs since his own individuality is undeveloped. He may put the partner (or teacher figure) up on a pedestal, and constantly refer to the partner for validation of his belief system. The imbalances, deficiencies and distortions in this type of relationship will produce internal and external confrontations, resulting in the termination of the relationship by either person, or other cataclysmic events that bring about reflection and examination of the difficulties, the main difficulty being inequality in the relationship, or losing oneself to the other.
Alternatively, he could play the dominant (or teacher) role in the relationship making the partner or student become utterly dependent on him due to the learned ability to deeply understand the other's reality or to understand the deep need for self-definition through a philosophical belief system. He will have a need to convert others or the tendency to indoctrinate rather than teach, because of his own need for emotional security. This can lead to domination, the abuse of power and inequality in the relationship.
He is realizing that he has a need to be needed, and a need to give. He is motivated to give his ideological viewpoint as somehow the "answer". He will learn that by giving to another, his own needs will be met. He is learning to understand the reality of the other, so as to give them what they truly need, and it may not necessarily be of a philosophical nature. Once he learns to give, he will be able to give generously, while developing his own inner balance.
1st house Pluto polarity / 3rd house NN
Through emotional shocks and philosophical and intellectual confrontations with others, he will be forced to develop the 3rd house NN. He will learn that there are many paths to the truth and that each person has their own path. Through comparison with different points of view, he will realize the weaknesses in his own beliefs. He will be in a better position to disseminate the knowledge that is inherent in his nature to others via the written or spoken word. In order that his message is understood by others, he will be forced to communicate in a logical way and to improve his communication skills. Education will transform into mutual sharing of knowledge and information rather than conversion, preaching or indoctrination. Relationships will transform into equal roles, with give and take, rather than playing dominant/submissive roles. As the 1st house Pluto polarity is developed and expressed, he will progressively learn that the answers lie within himself; he will minimize his dependency on powerful people for self-validation; self-discovery will become his passion; he will follow new adventures and new paths that lead to learning more about himself; he will balance his need for relationships with his need for time alone; he will develop freedom within his relationships; he will learn to trust in his own decisions; he will become self-motivating, and he will develop his individuality more fully.
* * *
Linda
I wanted to add my input to these posts. A core dynamic within this signature is that the Soul will be compensating for the feeling of being different (the living lie Linda referred to). In the case of the 7th house Pluto, and SN in the 9th house issues of honesty within relationships and of truly expressing what the individual believes and his or her natural truth so to speak within the relationship will be critical. In other words, the Soul in this evolutionary state most commonly will create relationships wherein the partner cannot reflect, or accept, the individuals need to liberate and decondition from the mainsteam society in general because of the underlying issue of compensation. However, the individual may put on a "happy face" so to speak even though their own legitmate needs are not being meet in this way which sets up the need, at some point, for philosophical/intellectual confrontations (9th house SN/3rd house NN). In essence, the Soul must learn to speak his or her own natural truth, and be who he or she naturally is, within any relationship that is formed. in this way, liberation from the past patterns allready described can be accomplished, and the individual can develop his or her own natural identity and voice that allows the Soul's innate wisdom that has been attained to be expressed (Polarity point in Aries, NN in the 3rd house).
Bradley, What I can say about your questions is that the 9th house from an EA point of view correlates with the need to understand our connection to the universe in a metaphysical/cosmological/philosophical standpoint. This is why is correlates to the nature of belief systems, and also to natural law. The inherent problem within this archetype is to create generalizations, or promote your own beliefs as the total truth for everyone (it has been called the billy Grahm archetype).
As Rad as stated, the Capricorn archetype correlates to the phenomena of judgement (cultural rights and wrongs, taboos. etc). The point within this is to examine the nature of the judgements that are formed (i.e-is it based on a natural system or on man made beliefs that condition our judgements as to what is right and what is wrong). Self righteousness is a distortion of this archetype. In other words, we do not need religion to validate what is intrinsically right and wrong (based on natural law).
I hope this is clear, and if it is not please let me know and I will clarify.
Deva,
Thanks for your clarification!
It's all making more sense now.
This chart practice is invaluable.
Ari,
Excellent .. really excellent ....
****************************************************************************
is the next paragraph true for a first stage individuated soul?
all 7th house pluto souls are interested in accepting and understanding what makes another person's reality what it is. as this soul comes more into their own mental liberation, they will find more acceptance and peace with people who have radically different belief systems. they will understand that there's a reason why uncle believes they way he does- thus the ability to simultaneously respect where he is at, and wholeheartedly disagree. in this process, allowing anger to occur as a natural response to being treated unfairly is important. being comfortable with expressing their natural outrage at certain ideas implies they are not afraid of being rejected.
****************************************************************************
Yes, this is so, so true.
Rad
Bradley,
Quote from: Bradley J on Aug 29, 2009, 05:41 PM
Thanks Michelle, Ari Moshe, Rad, and all.
I've been thinking about this concept of judgement that I brought in on a recent attempt-especially in regards to: Where did this concept come from for me?
My main conclusions are that I carry a belief that Sagittarius and Jupiter have a shadow achetype of being high-minded and self righteous and then applied this to the 9th and....etc.
This is great reprogramming and learning application.
Have you seen this as a common mis-interpretation of this 9th s.n. achetype?
*****************************************************************************
Yes, I have seen this. And, in a way, it's correct because any time we decide to 'believe' in something, as in beliefs of any kind, those 'beliefs' imply an underlying philosophy of life. A philosophy of life that are then a pile of beliefs generated by that philosophy, whatever it is which of course includes various religions, are themselves JUDGMENTS about the nature of the cosmos, creation, the PHENOMENA OF LIFE itself. So when any of us orientates to any beliefs/ philosophies/ religions we have in fact made a judgment about what the nature of life is: what the nature of the manifested creation is. And we can then 'judge' others according to our particular belief system and the various moralities and ethics that emanate from them.
In the example we are using, however, i.e. a Soul just evolving into the individuated state with the S.Node in the 9th, 7th House Pluto, this would not be the case because it is so new, relatively speaking. Thus, the Soul is questioning more than concluding anything. Once we arrive at conclusions then the issue of the judgments thing can exist.
***************************************************************************
It is also interesting that Libra is associated with desicion/judgement calls, and often the scales, justice, and the judge are all grouped with the archetype.
**************************************************************************
This is the natural link to Aries, Cancer, Libra and Capricorn: the natural Cardinal Cross in total.
*****************************************************************************
Can anyone speak to this regarding the perspective of evolutionary astrology and a 7th house pluto?
It is my understanding that we are talking about 7th house pluto's as having to face a lot of desicion around relationship, which is different than coming in with judgements.
*****************************************************************************
Once we embrace the Cardinal Cross then we do see that we indeed make 'judgments' about other people in terms of their reality, Capricorn, the values and beliefs that are the basis of another's reality, and the 'decisions', 7th House, we make in terms of how we are going to relate, 7th House, to others in general, and the decisions we make to have in are life or not, and why, the judgments about their reality, and specifically who we want in our lives as intimate others.
****************************************************************************
This concept ties in with everyone's postings as to this individual (pluto 7/sn 9) having to face a lot of desicions revolving around beliefs and ideas that are incountered through relationships.
Rad
Linda
Quote from: Linda on Aug 30, 2009, 05:23 AM
7th house Pluto - 9th house SN - beginning of 1st stage individuated
This individual will cease to feel "normal" in the mainstream of society - and this estrangement will be aggravated by his South Node in the 9th. He will try to compensate for this sense of alienation by trying to appear normal, by following a mainstream religion, or by going to university and undertaking a course of study that perhaps his parents would approved of, or by undertaking normal kinds of work, or by undertaking what is expected of him in his particular culture. Since his core orientation to life is the need for relationships, he may at first try to conform to the consensus idea of what relationships are about, or be involved in relationships that appear to be "normal" in his culture.
*************************************************************************
Yes..............
**********************************************************************
Depending on his culture, even while "living a lie" he will continue to be searching for truth and knowledge, from deep within and without, through higher learning, books, workshops, and of course seeking out partners of like-mind to unite with him in his search for truth. He will progressively distance himself from the consensus, but because he is at the very beginning of the 1st stage individuated, this progression could very well take many lifetimes. To some degree, it is unlikely that he will actualize individualistic work.
****************************************************************************
Yes .................
**************************************************************************
Since he has just entered the beginning of the 1st stage individuated, he has also taken a new step in his soul development. He could be karmically blocked from relating to others or to society, so therefore relationships could be approached in distorted or dysfunctional ways which relate to his Pluto 7th. This non-involvement with society could attract others similar to himself who are alienated from society, drifters, misfits, travellers, multi-cultural people, etc. He could take refuge in his own cherished beliefs and look down upon others in a self-righteous kind of way.
**************************************************************************
No, this would not occur at this point in the individuals evolution. What you have written could apply to a Soul in the middle of the 2nd Stage Individuated DEPENDING ON OTHER FACTORS that are not part of the current symbolism that we are using: Pluto in the 7th, S.Node in the 9th.
****************************************************************************
The karmic history or signature of the early 1st stage individuated + 7th house Pluto + 9th house SN shows how the desire and need for relationships has been fulfilled in the past. The evolutionary impulse of the 7th house Pluto is relatively new. His prior life soul intention was to learn lessons of equality and balance in relationships and the SN 9th describes the conscious mode of operation. He has a compulsive need to be involved in relationship, to unite his life with another in order to feel whole, that reflects his values and beliefs based on his idea of the truth. He will interpret natural laws according to his early 1st stage individuated evolutionary condition. He is searching for relationships that support the formulation of a comprehensive philosophical belief system.
*****************************************************************************
Yes...................
**********************************************************************
He forms relationships through ideas that are not well-formed mixed in with consensus ideas of what relationships should be about. He will progressively become alienated with the mainstream ideas because they will not live up to his intuitive understanding of the truth of what relationships are about. He will eventually break free from stereotypical-type partners whom the mainstream would approve of, and pursue relationships that reflect his need for ongoing evolution and freedom.
**************************************************************************
Yes................
*****************************************************************************
He fulfils his 7th house desires by developing social values by interacting with a wide variety of people with whom he can share, compare and evaluate his ideas (which are probably quite dogmatic at the early 1st stage individuated).
***************************************************************************
No, not dogmatic at this point of evolution.
**********************************************************************
Due to the mutability factor, he would seek a variety of relationships because of his need for freedom and expansion. It is likely that he will debate and argue and try to convince others as to the "right" way, "his way", or the "only way" to the truth. Because of prior life identification with his own beliefs for security reasons, he will attract these confrontations with others.
*****************************************************************************
No, not at this point of evolution. This could occur later on as the Soul gets ever closer to the 2nd Stage individuated which means it can occur towards the end of the 1st stage individuated.
****************************************************************************
The type of relationship that he attracts could be a traditional teacher-student one in a mainstream institution in order to expand his knowledge. He would attract powerful teacher-types who he felt held all the answers, and who he believed could help him in his intense search. The seeking of relationships through being a student is an old pattern; he could attract karmic relationships to past teachers or students. He could be the model student who plays back the right answers to the teacher, but progressively learns to think for himself, his true beliefs leaking through. As the feeling of alienation increases, he will seek the freedom to find teachers (or partners) who reflect the new growth. Transformation occurs via emotional shocks experienced in his friendships, relationships, and teacher-student relationships. He could also have the ability to take in new information via osmosis. Through Pluto's unearthing of hidden talents, he may discover new capacities within himself. For example, he may discover latent teaching skills that could be applied in an individualized way.
***************************************************************************
Yes...............
*************************************************************************
As he has a compelling need to discover who he is through others, he could become overly dependent on outside sources as a means of defining himself. He will absorb the different realities and different belief systems of others, so there is a great variety of stuff to sort through so as to integrate into his comprehensive belief system. He will begin to be exposed to new information that is foreign to his previous education and culture.
***************************************************************************
Yes.
**************************************************************************
He will unconsciously defend his old beliefs based on the past for security reasons, and face confrontations.
**************************************************************************
No, the person will be throwing off those old beliefs as quickly as possible.
**************************************************************************
As he continues to search and explore, he may very well have times when he is a loner. He finds it frustrating trying to express his intuitive knowledge and this reinforces his sense of alienation. He may not stay in one place or commit to one relationship long enough, but because his personal power and security lie in relationships, he will seek them out again.
****************************************************************************
Yes.
************************************************************************
Because of the compulsive need to compare and discover who he is through others, he may become attracted to very powerful, self-assured people who he perceives hold all the answers and who can guide him. In order to feel a validation of the self, he would adopt the partner's views and beliefs since his own individuality is undeveloped. He may put the partner (or teacher figure) up on a pedestal, and constantly refer to the partner for validation of his belief system. The imbalances, deficiencies and distortions in this type of relationship will produce internal and external confrontations, resulting in the termination of the relationship by either person, or other cataclysmic events that bring about reflection and examination of the difficulties, the main difficulty being inequality in the relationship, or losing oneself to the other.
**************************************************************************
Yes...............
***********************************************************************
Alternatively, he could play the dominant (or teacher) role in the relationship making the partner or student become utterly dependent on him due to the learned ability to deeply understand the other's reality or to understand the deep need for self-definition through a philosophical belief system. He will have a need to convert others or the tendency to indoctrinate rather than teach, because of his own need for emotional security. This can lead to domination, the abuse of power and inequality in the relationship.
****************************************************************************
This COULD occur later on in this state, but not at the beginning.
***************************************************************************
He is realizing that he has a need to be needed, and a need to give. He is motivated to give his ideological viewpoint as somehow the "answer". He will learn that by giving to another, his own needs will be met. He is learning to understand the reality of the other, so as to give them what they truly need, and it may not necessarily be of a philosophical nature. Once he learns to give, he will be able to give generously, while developing his own inner balance.
**********************************************************************
Yes.
*************************************************************************
1st house Pluto polarity / 3rd house NN
Through emotional shocks and philosophical and intellectual confrontations with others, he will be forced to develop the 3rd house NN. He will learn that there are many paths to the truth and that each person has their own path. Through comparison with different points of view, he will realize the weaknesses in his own beliefs. He will be in a better position to disseminate the knowledge that is inherent in his nature to others via the written or spoken word. In order that his message is understood by others, he will be forced to communicate in a logical way and to improve his communication skills. Education will transform into mutual sharing of knowledge and information rather than conversion, preaching or indoctrination. Relationships will transform into equal roles, with give and take, rather than playing dominant/submissive roles. As the 1st house Pluto polarity is developed and expressed, he will progressively learn that the answers lie within himself; he will minimize his dependency on powerful people for self-validation; self-discovery will become his passion; he will follow new adventures and new paths that lead to learning more about himself; he will balance his need for relationships with his need for time alone; he will develop freedom within his relationships; he will learn to trust in his own decisions; he will become self-motivating, and he will develop his individuality more fully.
**************************************************************************
Yes, excellent.
* * *
Linda
Rad
Hi Everyone,
Well, I'm back (and it looks like I missed an assignment!)
I will read this thread up to the point of the 'classwork' request, to avoid reading anyone else's answers, and then respond as soon as I can.
I hope everyone has been well...
Best Bright Blessings to you all, :)
Stephen
Stephen,
Welcome back. We are presently looking at:
7th house Pluto
9th house SN
Early 1st stage individuated
Also:
1st house Pluto polarity
3rd house NN
It's been fascinating reading everyone's diverse responses so far.
Looking forward to reading yours too!
Stephen, welcome back!
Deva and Rad, thanks for the response. With reading these in conjuction with reading over the chapters of pluto in the 7th/libra and 9th/sag. this is making more sense.
Understanding the difference of early individuated vs. middle individuated was a great help.
Deva-I do have a couple of questions to clarify what you are saying.
First, when you wrote: "The point within this is to examine the nature of the judgements that are formed (i.e-is it based on a natural system or on man made beliefs that condition our judgements as to what is right and what is wrong)." are you saying that if a "judgement" has it's root in a natural system it is linked to the 9th/sag archetype and that judgements that come from "man made beliefs" are connected to the 10th/cap.?
Second question, when you wrote:"Self righteousness is a distortion of this archetype."-I am assuming you are referring to sag/9th. The question is whose the one distorting it? Is it the observer who percieves it as such or is it the individual-in which case this "distortion" would be a shadow expression of this archetype.
After re-reading the pluto 9th/sag. chapter and Rad's post, it is very clear how beliefs and philosophies often lead into judgement. Is this meaning that judgements are a byproduct of this 9th/sag archetype and the 10th/cap? OR is this more in the sense of- "Just as Capricorn/10th follows Sag/9th, so do judgements follow beliefs and philosophies for individuals who respond to their embraced beliefs/faith in the Billy Gram archetype fashion"?
I would love to expand on 1st and 3rd polarity points; rereading chapters and meditating on all this...
Thanks,
B
Bradley,
Quote from: Bradley J on Sep 01, 2009, 05:45 PM
Stephen, welcome back!
Deva and Rad, thanks for the response. With reading these in conjuction with reading over the chapters of pluto in the 7th/libra and 9th/sag. this is making more sense.
Understanding the difference of early individuated vs. middle individuated was a great help.
Deva-I do have a couple of questions to clarify what you are saying.
First, when you wrote: "The point within this is to examine the nature of the judgements that are formed (i.e-is it based on a natural system or on man made beliefs that condition our judgements as to what is right and what is wrong)." are you saying that if a "judgement" has it's root in a natural system it is linked to the 9th/sag archetype and that judgements that come from "man made beliefs" are connected to the 10th/cap.?
***************************************************************************
Souls in human form, consciousness, can only learn, thus evolve, because of judgments. Judgments are natural to consciousness. This issue is not judgments as such, it is the CONTENT within consciousness that is used to form the basis of judgments. So the question is, relative to the 9th House and NATURAL LAWS, is the content one of natural laws that lead TO NATURAL JUDGMENTS, or is that content DISTORTIONS OF NATURAL LAWS in all kinds of ways that then lead to judgments based on those distortions ? Judgments, as an archetypes, is Capricorn, the 10th House, and of course Saturn.
Any 'belief' system that is not rooted in the NATURAL LAWS OF GOD/ESS are, of themselves, distortions. And those distorted beliefs them become the basis of the distorted judgments that are formed relative to the 10th House, Capricorn, and Saturn.
***************************************************************************
Second question, when you wrote:"Self righteousness is a distortion of this archetype."-I am assuming you are referring to sag/9th. The question is whose the one distorting it? Is it the observer who percieves it as such or is it the individual-in which case this "distortion" would be a shadow expression of this archetype.
************************************************************************
It is the Soul embodied in an individual form, with an individualized ego, that is the one who can form distorted judgments that are the basis of it's 'self righteousness'. The Soul that it is absolutely 'right' as in the case of Billy Graham and countless other Souls who have then leveled their righteous judgments upon others because, of course, they are right !
**************************************************************************
After re-reading the pluto 9th/sag. chapter and Rad's post, it is very clear how beliefs and philosophies often lead into judgement. Is this meaning that judgements are a byproduct of this 9th/sag archetype and the 10th/cap?
*************************************************************************
Beliefs, again, are themselves judgments upon the nature of the cosmos, the nature of Creation, what life is, and what it means. And these beliefs them become that basis of HOW WE JUDGE OTHERS: the 10th House in general. And how the Consensus, 10th House, Capricorn, Saturn, judges the individual via consensus held beliefs equaling ethics and moralities, rights and wrongs, etc.
*************************************************************************
OR is this more in the sense of- "Just as Capricorn/10th follows Sag/9th, so do judgements follow beliefs and philosophies for individuals who respond to their embraced beliefs/faith in the Billy Gram archetype fashion"?
*************************************************************************
see above ........
************************************************************************
I would love to expand on 1st and 3rd polarity points; rereading chapters and meditating on all this...
Thanks,
B
Rad
Hi, thanks Rad for clarifying the questions about my post. Bradley, please let me know if you have any more questions about what I have written, and yes lets go the the polarity points of this example now! This is a great thread, and thanks to all who have contributed so far.
Deva
Quote from: Linda on Aug 31, 2009, 05:44 PM
Stephen,
Welcome back. We are presently looking at:
7th house Pluto
9th house SN
Early 1st stage individuated
Also:
1st house Pluto polarity
3rd house NN
It's been fascinating reading everyone's diverse responses so far.
Looking forward to reading yours too!
Thanks Linda, for that synopsis of the assignment. I want to make certain I don't read the other responses before trying to understand the question myself...
Yes, I agree, everyone's differing ways of exploring these topics are really helping me to understand the subject matter from viewpoints other than my oen (limited) understanding.
Thanks Bradley for the Welcome Back!
Blessings,
Stephen
This post is done, similar to Stephen's idea-review of pertaining chapters, but I did not reread recent posts from Ari Moshe and Linda in order to develop my own voice and conscious understanding.
Thanks again, Bradley
Pluto 7th/south node 9th: Focusing on Pluto polarity point 1st house/north node 3rd:
(Early Individuated State)
As discussed earlier in this thread, this individual incarnated into this life just coming out of a consensus reality. In their karmic past, relationships around them created a great sense of security and it means a lot that they are liked by those in their life.
At this karmic point in time for this soul, they have come into this life with a lot of recent influence from teacher type relationships. These relationships have opened up their view of life and reality beyond the socially accepted "norm". We do not know what culture this individual last lived in, so the current consensus reality may or may not align with a personally new developing cosmic perspective on life.
Having reiterated all this, lets go on.
This new knowledge which has had such a great impact on this individual came from others thru relationship. NOW, in this lifetime, it is their karmic mission to awaken to their own destiny-answer questions like: "How do I personally fit into this paradigm as i understand it now?" "What actions should I take?" and to find these answers for themselves.
Part of their path is to develop their own voice and intellect, so that what they speak is a reflection of their true self. Having been so open to listen to what others were speaking and learning from it, they are at a point where they can continue this journey by realizing the self. Ironically, this would not be alone in a closet. It will come thru continuing in dialog with those in their life.
In the past, it was easy and most comfortable to please others by letting them speak and hearing what they have to say.
This is still important, but what is crucial here is that their own voice is heard equally.
This new awakened sense of self will be realized thru the mind as they begin to ask questions and gather facts, information, and fill in the details to the new larger cosmic paradigm which their consciousness is beginning to grasp.
With other nodal placements and this pluto house position, I'd say that the person would have to be out of relationship for a period of time to truly find their self. This may or may not be true, but what is important for this soul is to continue thru dialog and conversation to develop their voice, their own thoughts and insights, learn supporting facts and information that explain why they now perceive reality and their place in it as such and what freedom means to them.
This development thru conversation is about purposeful conversation that promotes self growth and intellect. They already know how to carry on with idol chit-chat and this and that.
This will lead to the development of their ability to understand and know their own needs and how to communicate them.
An example of a potential challenging situation that they may face:
Let's say this person meets someone that they sense immediately a desire to be in a relationship with. It is in America in the 20th century. They are now in their 30s. In their 20s they had lived with an individual whom they learned a great deal about life from. This past teacher, whom they stay in communication with, has issues with anyone that identifies with Catholicism. This person's attracted mate is catholic; while they personally hold different ideologies of life, their conversations are rich and transforming for this person. The individual here has a hurdle to jump with mental blocks of even considering such a relationship that they feel drawn to as well as the sensed break down in the relationship of this other teacher/friend of years in their life. They must make this decision for their self. They also have a lot of fears come up because the potential mate views relationship in a different perspective(more consensus) and the honesty that the conversation calls for promotes great growth for real sharing and overcoming fears of speaking their own truth. It is a challenge to see that the ultimate outcome is not as important as the choices in that now.
In conclusion, if the individual achieves the above, re-entering into relationships with these evolved awarenesses, the soul will create a beautiful harmony and balance in all relations that they chose to engage in.
And will be a joy to have a conversation with, having a great sense of when to speak and when to listen and adding in pertinent questions and meaningful examples and stories.
Bradley,
Good so far Bradley...............
Rad
Bradley, Stephan, Linda, Michelle, and Ari..........
Ok, feels like it's time to move forwards with our practice chart. We will stay with this one and now add the location of the planetary rulers for the S. and N.Nodes. Let's put the planetary ruler of the S.Node in the 11th House, and the location of the N.Node in the 4th House. And please keep in mind that we are, again, talking about a Soul just moving into the 1st stage individuated: within the last few lifetimes.
So let's have a go at it.
Rad
Hi Everyone,
Sorry to possibly slow things down by going backward, so to speak, over ground already covered. However, I would certainly appreciate reading any comments about what I write concerning the questions at hand if anyone has anything at all to offer, and the time to offer it. (Please help me correct any errors of thinking/analysis!)
I'll just split up the assignments that I am 'owing' the Board into three responses:
1- Synopsis of Early First Stage Individuated (attached below)
2- 7th House Pluto with 9th House South Node
3- 1st House Pluto Polarity Point with 3rd House North Node
Thanks for the Patience,
and True Blessings of the God'dess,
Stephen
Early First Stage Individuated
In the early First Stage Individuated, the Soul now begins to rebel against the consensus state and against having the definition of its own self-identity being established by its association with the herd, and the society into which they were born. This has the effect of beginning the process of separating them from the herd from which their sense of security was previously provided.
This rebellion takes the form first of questioning the customs and beliefs of the consensus, second of discarding this limiting consensus belief structure, and third in searching for a true inner identity, or sense of self.
This leads to the Soul beginning to think for itself, and thus additionally question its previous "˜assumptions' about the structure of its own reality, and by extension, the reality of its birth society, and then even the structure of the Cosmos itself. The Soul uncovers the fact that there is much much more to reality than the consensus viewpoint contains. This insight forces the Soul to attempt to replace the discarded belief structure with their own self-discovered structure, through which they can understand the Cosmos, and from which they can slowly learn to draw their actions.
As they begin to proceed in this search, they have a sense of "˜feeling different' deep within themselves. However, this sense of "˜difference' can easily lead to a sense of alienation and insecurity, since "security is produced through self-consistency, which is itself provided by a sense of constancy of the past (that which is leading into the present)."
Thus, the old comforts of the consensus reality can thus still seem "˜attractive' but will no longer satisfy the Soul on some level, due to the slowly but steadily increasing level of self-awareness. However, this can lead to the insecure Soul mimicking the "˜forms' of the consensus reality, in its job, style of dress, manner of entertainment, and possibly choice of friends, in an attempt at appearing "˜normal' and to recover its previous sense of security. This is a surface compensation only, since the Soul truly is in rebellion against the consensus, and is beginning to discover that inwardly it is actually different from the others in the consensus state. This form of compensation can produce a very intense feeling of "˜living a lie', even while the Soul is trying to uncover the truth, and can unfortunately have the side-effect of attracting exactly the consensus-level people that the Soul is trying to distance itself from. This can possibly further lead to a sense of being perpetually misunderstood, and this fact itself could very well begin to diminish the false and temporary sense of security that this form of compensation affords.
This sense of otherness [separating from the herd], exacerbated by the tension generated through "˜living a lie' even while seeking the truth, will itself accelerate the developing search for truth. A "˜Truth' which will no longer be exclusive as embedded within the truth of the consensus, but will instead become inclusive as reflective of the truth of the various peoples on the entire planet. The individual will soon start to question everything, and so will begin to investigate this developing and personal sense of Truth, possibly through reading, through self-discovery/self-enhancement workshops and conferences, through studying the cultures, spiritual beliefs and history of the world, and through seeking those who are going through, or have already gone through, this very process of self-discovery.
Even though the Soul is rebelling against a consensus-defined society, it still seeks to find a place where it will fit in. Finding a "˜like-minded-group' will help these Souls to eventually give up the attempt at compensatory behavior, and possibly to even begin to discard the trappings of the previous behaviors of their earlier life, as well "¦ previous friendships, possessions, manner of living and dress and entertainment. If financially possible, they may very well take the step of leaving their current job for one which more accurately reflects that growing sense of self-identity, or may just do whatever work pays the bills in this interim period of intense self-discovery.
The diverse viewpoints discovered in this search will continue the process of the expansion of their self-awareness and consciousness, and will eventually lead toward an innate understanding of the value of an individual's freedom to discover (and uncover) the meaning of the world for themselves.
Stephen,
Excellent !
Rad
Pluto 7th/south node 9th-ruler 11th/north node 3rd-ruler 4th: Early individuated Evolutionary state:
Now that we have the house positions of the rulers of the nodes, we can begin to fill in more of the details regarding the souls last few lifetimes as well as guiding words on how to focus on their developement in the current lifetime.
The strong need to be involved in relationships(pluto 7th) supports that the "teachers" in this souls past lifetimes(s.n. 9th/early individuated) were part of a small group within the herd state culture that she/he lived in(ruler in 11th). Together, in these smaller circles of friends, she/he was able to discuss a perspective on life and general philosophy that was not accepted by the general community around them. This/these small group(s) may have been few or many, may have changes shape and size and focus, but would have had a common thread of seeing the current collective mundane reality with a bird's eye philosophy of the how's and why's the dynamics of life occur the way they do. This could have been thru study of other cultures, study of a specific philosophy or religion, or even a group that may not have been clearly defined with a goal, focus, or purpose but to process together-birds of a feather flock together.
I keep seeing a small string of birds on a line watching the activities of life from above.
This past was not "on the outside looking in", but more like "in it, yet realizing that i'm not really of it". We have already established that this soul began to embrace a new perspective outside of the cultural norm(early individuated state), NOW we see this is emphasized with the 11 house s.n. ruler. Now, we can also see that these small group learning experiences were the beginning of the shedding of the skin of the herd state mentality. We have yet to determine whether the soul has reincarnated into the same culture or not.
In this life, we have discussed the activation of the pluto polarity point in the sense of developing the self. Whole onto thyself first, and then relationship. We clarified that the north node in the 3rd house shows us that the path to establishing their own perspective will come from questioning everything...still(early individuated). This could be challenging for this soul because (early individuated) they are moving out of a familiar mentality and are just learning "relative to their soul" new philosophies about life. It would be easier in a sense to wholeheartedly embrace the teachings of the ones in their life they have been learning from. And perhaps this was done, but it left this person feeling outside of their self. She/he needs to get in touch with where they are at with all of life now, questioning all, old and new, is needed. Now, we can add this piece(n.n. ruler in the 4th): So, we already have a dynamic of "not yet familiar" with life philosophies(early individuated)-Stephen described this dynamic well in his piece on the early individuated state. This piece makes it even more clear that it is going to be important for this soul to begin to create a deep inner sense of security around their new orientation to reality-with a highlight on their own-not just their teacher/friends ideas.
So, this is the part I'm not sure on-in Pluto book one JWG teaches about the nodes being "the modes of operation that help the individual fulfill the evolutionary necessities and desires." and the planetary rulers of the nodes act as facilitators to develop(north node) or have developed the mode of operation of the node by house and sign.
So, when I thought about the s.n 9th/ruler 11, it was relatively easy to see how these roles may have played out: What facilitated the developement of these learning experiences in relationships?
-because pluto is in the seventh, I was inclined to see that the soul wanted to be liked and found comradship in a group(s.n.ruler 11th) that helped develop these new ideas/visions/life philosophies(s.n. 9th)
Now, when I take that same concept to the n.n. 3rd and ruler of 4th-it is so much easier to reverse the two-so, I'm saying that it is easier to imagine that development of emotional security leading into the ability of being able to ask the right questions and have the deeper conversations which lead to coming into one's own place with "all this".
But I feel like it should be "how would she/he develop their ability to question and communicate about these new perspectives on life?-by going deep within his/her self and feeling out what really hits home for her/him.
Does my question make sense, this is the part I am confused on.
Thanks,
Bradley J
7th House Pluto with 9th House South Node in Early 1st Individuated
How have the 7th House previous orientations/past desires (Pluto) occurred or been actualized within the last few lifetimes in the context of a 9th House Mode of Operation (South Node) for an individual in the Early First Stage Individuated Evolutionary Condition of the Soul?
The 7th House Pluto Soul has previously been learning the process of developing an objective awareness of its own self, and additionally attempting to understand this new-found sense of individuality through a social perspective. So, in a preliminary way, the Soul has been learning the evolutionary lesson of objectivity versus subjectivity, which includes the lessons of true listening, equality, and balance, and the Soul would have been learning these lessons through its belief system (9th House South Node). Specifically, the past egocentric structure and self-image of the Soul would have been based upon the need for the person to understand them self through these relationships (7th House) in a philosophical or cosmological context (9th House).
Additionally, in the early First Stage Individuated, the Soul is starting to rebel against the consensus state and against having its own self-identity be established by its association with the herd and its birth society. This has the effect of beginning the process of separating the individual from the herd through which their sense of security was previously provided.
Within this path of Soul growth, a fundamental lesson is how to participate in relationships, and so this will be a driving force for the individual coming into this life. That particular lesson will therefore require conscious involvement within a broad diversity of relationships (7th House), leading the Soul to have an exposure to many different value systems, intellectual systems, emotional patterns, and spiritual beliefs.
However, since the rebellion takes the form of questioning the customs and beliefs of the consensus, this diversity of relationships will come under an intense scrutiny (1st Individuated) while the Soul learns to listen objectively in order to determine how to relate to those others, in order to gain a true understanding of others (7th House). Additionally, since it is a person's belief system which provides the method that they will use to actually interpret life, it is the developing belief system (9th House) which will determine those relationships which the individual initiates, and then chooses to continue.
The individuating Soul is attempting to replace its discarded belief structure with their own self-discovered structure from which they can slowly learn to draw their actions. This will be a structure designed to explain the Soul's connection to the "phenomenological nature of the universe," through which they can come to understand the Cosmos (9th House South Node).
As this framework is being built, the individuating person questions everything, and so has been investigating this developing and personal sense of truth through a diversity of relationships (7th House). And, they will come to view their relationships through these metaphysical or philosophical principles (9th South Node), including their relationship to the Cosmos itself. Since they are moving through the early stages of the Individuated Soul State, these principles will not be based upon a religious context (consensus reality), but instead will be founded upon the Soul's own developing spiritual context.
The Soul, in the process of discarding the limiting consensus belief structure (1st Individuated), will uncover the fact that there is much much more to reality than the consensus viewpoint contains, and this will then further lead to the individual searching for a true inner identity or sense of self.
The Soul's unconscious emotional security structures are defined by the need to be in relationships in order to feel fulfilled and complete. However, rebellion (1st Individuated) leads to the Soul beginning to think for itself, and thus additionally question its previous "˜assumptions' about the structure of its own reality, and by extension, the reality of its birth society, and then even the structure of the Cosmos itself. It is inevitable that the Soul also begins to question its assumptions about its preconceived notions of relationship, and how it should act within and response to a relationship with others.
However, if the Soul's attempt to understand life in a metaphysical, philosophical and spiritual context is not aligned with natural law, outside of specific belief systems, then that could lead to a distorted belief system.
As they begin to succeed in their search, the individuating Soul will have a sense of "˜feeling different' deep within them self. However, this sense of "˜difference' can easily lead to a sense of alienation and insecurity, since security is produced through self-consistency, which is itself provided by a sense of constancy of the past (leading into the present). This could very well cause the Soul to "˜swing to the other extreme' and no longer seek to attempt to define itself through relationships with others (distortion: 7th House) as it feels the increasing need to isolate itself due to its differences. Or, due to that security which is provided through its belief system, the Soul may not listen to any belief or idea which conflicts with its new belief structure (distortion: 9th South Node), and in so doing drive away the very relationships that it seeks. If the belief system becomes static and unchanging, and the Soul comes to believe itself to have a unique understanding of The Truth, then it will only recognize those beliefs which concur with its own, and thus only accept relationships with those others who already agree with the Soul's steadily "˜hardening' belief system.
Also, another potential downfall within this particular archetype is the possibility of an involvement in too many relationships (7th House), being subjected to too many differing viewpoints, which can lead to the opposite intent, which is that of a Soul losing touch with its own unique individuality (1st Individuated) and its own belief system (9th South Node).
This could unfortunately also have the possible side-effect of a compulsive dependence on the opinions and advice of others, and may even in extreme cases lead to the Soul's substitution of the understandings and beliefs (9th House) of others concerning their own self and life-purpose as its own. This would then lead to the inability of the Soul to relate to itself without relating to others, and so a feeling of being uncomfortable while being alone will arise (distortion: 7th House).
Also, since the old comforts of the consensus reality can still seem "˜attractive' (but will no longer truly satisfy the Soul), the Soul may mimic the outward forms of the consensus reality in an attempt at appearing "˜normal.' Even though this is only a surface compensation, it can have the unwanted side-effect of attracting exactly the consensus-level relationships (7th House) from which the Soul is trying to distance itself (1st Individuated).
Additionally, this form of compensation can produce a very intense feeling of "˜living a lie', even while the Soul is trying to uncover the truth, and this can itself lead to a sense of being perpetually misunderstood. This could possibly lead right into an additional downfall of this type (7th House Pluto), which is a subconscious attraction and dependence upon powerful people with perceived stability and "˜inside information' about the Truth (9th House). Since this Soul is already seeking answers (1st Individuated), and is additionally seeking a diversity of relationships (7th House), it is susceptible to having its belief system (9th House) become "˜high-jacked' by such a charismatic individual who will provide direction and life-purpose to the confused and questioning Soul.
However, this sense of otherness, exacerbated from the tension generated through "˜living a lie' even while seeking the truth, will itself accelerate the developing search for truth. A "˜truth' which will no longer be exclusive as embedded within the truth of the consensus, but will instead be inclusive as reflective of the truth of the various peoples on the entire planet.
If the Soul can retain its evolutionary impulse and direction in its search for truth (1st Individuated) through a diversity of relationships (7th House) in a philosophical and metaphysical way (9th House), and if the Soul is able to navigate through these distortions and downfalls, then an understanding of the unique parameters of the Soul's own innate individuality will eventually be provided by understanding itself (1st Individuated) through these very relationships (7th House). This will then allow the individual to begin to learn to truly hear others' representation of reality, and this acceptance of differing points of view will lead to a deeper understanding of the inherent relativity of all human nature, which will possibly lead to the Soul attempting to unite that "˜newly defined' self with others (7th House) and with the Cosmos (9th House).
Thus, the lessons of a Pluto Seventh House Soul will eventually lead to the Soul's ability to provide for others' needs from the point of view of those other's own reality, which will cause the Soul to develop an equal participation through true balance in many differing types of relationships, with the Soul learning along the way to be neither subservient nor dominant. Additionally, if the Soul is able to move past its self-limiting belief structure, discarding generalizations and the sense of having the only "˜handle on the Truth', then they may begin to view the Cosmos as it actually is, through Natural Law which is independent of any particular belief system.
The "˜way out' of these downfalls/shortcomings/distortions, in order to change these existing patterns and so continue the Soul's evolution, is to move in the direction of the Pluto Polarity Point, which will reflect the necessary evolutionary requirements which this Soul needs to develop.
Hi Bradley,
Quote
So, when I thought about the s.n 9th/ruler 11, it was relatively easy to see how these roles may have played out: What facilitated the developement of these learning experiences in relationships?
-because pluto is in the seventh, I was inclined to see that the soul wanted to be liked and found comradship in a group(s.n.ruler 11th) that helped develop these new ideas/visions/life philosophies(s.n. 9th)
Now, when I take that same concept to the n.n. 3rd and ruler of 4th-it is so much easier to reverse the two-so, I'm saying that it is easier to imagine that development of emotional security leading into the ability of being able to ask the right questions and have the deeper conversations which lead to coming into one's own place with "all this".
But I feel like it should be "how would she/he develop their ability to question and communicate about these new perspectives on life?-by going deep within his/her self and feeling out what really hits home for her/him.
Does my question make sense, this is the part I am confused on.
Can you try to rephrase or reword your question and/or what you are confused about ? I got a little 'confused' reading the above ..sorry.
Rad
Stephen,
SIMPLY EXCEPTIONAL WORK !!!
Rad
1st House Pluto Polarity Point with 3rd House North Node in Early 1st Individuated
How will the 1st House Evolutionary Intentions (7th House Pluto Polarity Point) manifest or be actualized relative to the 3rd House Mode of Operation (North Node) for an individual in the Early First Stage Individuated Evolutionary Condition of the Soul?
The core evolutionary intent for a Soul in the current life is reflected in the Pluto Polarity Point, which for a Seventh House Pluto individual is to be found within the First House. Thus, the current evolutionary intent is for the Soul to learn how to choose its own life directions without dependence upon opinions or consent of others, and thus meet its own needs without reliance upon others (1st House polarity). The Soul is questioning (1st Individuated) everything, and so will be gathering as much information as possible (3rd House North Node) in order to manifest its need to discover itself and provide a new direction for itself (1st House) in terms of its next evolutionary advance (polarity point). In other words, the newly developing egocentric structure of the Soul will come to be based upon its ability to collect pertinent facts, and correctly interpret that data, (3rd House) which will lead in a new life path towards independence (1st House polarity).
Even though the Soul is rebelling against a consensus-defined society, it still seeks to find a place where it will fit in. However, this developing independence does not imply the individual becoming a loner, or living without a close relationship, but instead indicates that they should additionally learn how to be alone and make their own decisions in order to more fully develop their own unique individuality (1st House polarity). Even as the Soul is embarking upon this new evolutionary cycle (1st House), which is an outward directed energy signature, it will still seek information (3rd House) from introspection through questioning (1st Individuated) its previous behavior patterns in an attempt to establish new patterns (polarity point).
Therefore, with time required for this "˜Soul searching', these Souls will need to balance this necessity for time alone (1st House) with the need for time spent with others (7th House). However, these others will need to be of a "˜like-minded-group' (1st Individuated), and, as a side-effect, the acceptance into this new group will help these Souls to leave behind their compensatory behavior (7th House distortion) and so begin to discard the trappings of the previous consensus behavior of their earlier life "¦ possessions, manner of living, dress, and entertainment.
Within this new group, and by extension, within their personal intimate relationships, they will come to learn not to control or block their partner's own need to initiate decisions (1st House), and this will require the Soul to learn to conduct relationships (7th House) through applying new, and not previously patterned, methods (polarity point). As the Soul continues to discard compensatory behavior (1st Individuated), and reevaluates its individuality in respect to relationship (7th House), the Soul will also see the value in evaluating (3rd House) previous friendships and relationships which limit their freedom in self-discovery (1st House). The Soul needs to be free enough (1st House) to be available both for those "˜awakening' experiences which come of their own, and those experiences which must be sought out and discovered for one's self "¦ experiences which will lead to further growth of their developing self-identity (1st Individuated).
This need/desire for freedom must be understood by the individual in a balanced way, an understanding which will be facilitated through seeking those who are going through, or have already gone through, this very process of self-discovery. It not only requires that the partner learn to support independence in this individual (1st Individuated), but also that the individual must reciprocally learn to support their partner's independence. This type of voluntary participation within the relationship in a mutually dependent way will thus encourage inter-pendence and not co-dependence with both of the partners. Thus, since the Soul seeks/needs/desires those relationships in which they them self can be free while simultaneously providing freedom for their partner, this then rules out relationships which are co-dependant. Therefore, succumbing to a powerful personality (7th House distortion) who claims to have the truth (9th South Node) will then not be a potential downfall for an individual seeking independence (1st House) through accepting these evolutionary lessons of the Pluto polarity point.
The initial individuating sense of "˜feeling different' which once generated compensatory behavior (7th House distortion) will develop into the knowledge that they actually are different (1st House), and this difference is not only acceptable, but is actually the way that the Cosmos functions (Natural Law: 9th South Node). The information that the Soul has collected (3rd House North Node) will enable this understanding, broadening the Soul's understanding of itself as a single being (1st House) and as a being able to function in relation to others (7th House), and in relation to the Natural Laws of the Cosmos itself (9th House).
The individual will then learn within relationships (7th House) to give to the other so the others' needs can be met, and, when a true balance in the relationship is achieved, the partner will also give freely back to the individual so that their own needs can thus be met as well. In this way, the Soul will actually be sharing information and so teaching (3rd North Node) the truth (9th House) through its own example of self-discovery (1st Individuated) to those others (7th House) who also desire to experience and facilitate the evolution of their own Soul.
A new understanding is mandated by this new cycle of life direction (1st House), and this understanding will be built through the accumulation of facts, and subsequent collation of this information (3rd North Node), through a wide-ranging process, including through reading, through self-discovery/self-enhancement workshops and conferences, and through studying the cultures, spiritual beliefs and history of the world (1st Individuated). If financially possible, as this new cycle of becoming (1st House) gathers momentum, the individual may very well take the step of leaving their current job for one which more accurately reflects that growing sense of self-identity (1st Individuated), or may just do whatever work pays the bills in this interim period of intense self-discovery.
This need to collect information (3rd House), both about the developing self (1st Individuated) and the actual reality of the Cosmos (9th House), will allow the Soul to either recover from, or avoid completely, the 9th House (South Node) distortion of not listening to any belief or idea which conflicts with its own past belief structure (consensus). Also, the possibility that the Soul will come to believe itself to have a unique understanding of The Truth (distortion: 9th South Node), leading to the belief system becoming static and unchanging, will be greatly diminished both through the intense study (3rd House) of the world's cultures, spiritual beliefs and history, and also through its choice of relationships (7th House) combined with the ensuing dialogues (3rd House) concerning philosophical and metaphysical truth (9th House) and cosmological discussions concerning the self-directed choice of a life path (1st House, 1st Individuated).
This itself will then lead to the removal of the Soul's previous security need to only accept relationships with those people who hold beliefs which concur with its own, and thus already agree with the Soul's previously "˜hardening' belief system. The individual's belief system itself will begin to expand into an understanding, based on actual facts (3rd House), of the Natural Law (9th House) through which the Cosmos functions, outside of any man-made belief systems, dogmatic assertions or unquestioned assumptions and convictions (9th House distortion).
The information collected in this search (3rd House) will continue the process of the expansion of their self-awareness and consciousness, and will eventually lead toward an innate understanding of the value of an individual's freedom (1st House) to discover the meaning of the world (9th House) for themselves.
Thus, as these lessons are learned, these individuals will be very giving people, able to easily identify the needs of the other within the context of the others' own realities, and thus provide exactly what the others' need. Additionally, they will come to learn the lesson of when to give and when not to give in the context of the larger view of the specific evolutionary needs of others.
In this quest (1st Individuated), the Soul will be initiating discussions (3rd House) with others (7th House) in an attempt to uncover and understand the truth (9th House) about itself, others and the Cosmos. The Soul will feel the need to test its understanding (3rd House) of its newly changing life-direction (1st House) and its developing self-identity (1st Individuated) both within these discussions and through its relationships (7th House) with others, and so this new direction will itself help to Soul to not fall prey to another possible distortion: losing touch with its own unique individuality and developing personal belief system through an involvement in too many relationships and thus being subjected to too many differing viewpoints.
However, the Soul needs to be vigilant that it does not begin to collect information simply for the sake of collecting information (distortion; 3rd North Node), leaving the quickly-purchased books unread, or the new workshop techniques unpracticed, or the insights garnered from intense discussions left unheeded. Also, an extreme amount of information, without a clear connecting structure, can lead to dissipation, not enhancement, of the individual's mental capacities and thus possibly slow down the desired growth of self-awareness.
If the Soul can develop a desire/process to constantly link this multitude of facts and sheer data collection back to a point of stability (South Node), which is the knowledge of the actual reality of the Cosmos (9th House), then the parameters of Natural Law can itself provide the framework upon which a foundation to interpret this information can be provided.
The lessons of the First House Pluto Polarity Point will lead the individual to learn to be inwardly balanced in any external situation, and so have a firmer grasp upon their own identity, even in the face of pressure from other outside viewpoints, values, beliefs, or even ideas. These lessons will also lead to the individual truly appreciating the complex diversity of human nature, and, through realizing their own unique individuality, they will be able to place that individuality within the context of human society. They will thus themselves give this conceptual lesson to others through their own living example, the concept of which is that every individual does on their own have the ability to discover who they are, and additionally the courage to THEN BE THAT.
The individual may then possibly even move further into the Individuated State, and find their own voice through disseminating their carefully collated collection of information (3rd North Node), possibly even choosing to share this idea of individual self-empowerment (1st House) as a human right (Natural Law: 9th House), and in that way help others to identify those areas in their own relationships (7th House), both with others and within themselves, that have succumbed to distortion.
Quote from: Rad on Sep 05, 2009, 08:50 AM
Bradley, Stephan, Linda, Michelle, and Ari..........
Ok, feels like it's time to move forwards with our practice chart. We will stay with this one and now add the location of the planetary rulers for the S. and N.Nodes. Let's put the planetary ruler of the S.Node in the 11th House, and the location of the N.Node in the 4th House. And please keep in mind that we are, again, talking about a Soul just moving into the 1st stage individuated: within the last few lifetimes.
So let's have a go at it.
Rad
OK...
Soul:
Early First Stage Individuated 4-
7th House Pluto with 9th House South Node, 11th House South Node Ruler 5-
1st House Pluto Polarity Point with 3rd House North Node, 4th House North Node RulerThanks Rad for allowing us to keep this thread active, and for monitoring our work.
Blessings,
Stephen
Sure, thanks for asking.
With the "mode of operation" to develope on the evolutionary journey being 3rd house(process of inquiry, discovery of information/ideas, conversations, journaling to mentally process, etc.) and the facilitator of this "mode of operation" being in the 4th house, the most basic connection I can initially make is that this person needs to develop their own inner security to be able ask the questions that really count and have the courage(PPP 1rst) to initate the conversations that are truely transformative and very "real".
My confusion was that, initially, my mind was logically thinking that someone would have this happen in a reverse direction-like the 3rd house experiences would lead to the development of the 4th house sphere.
So, it is currently more challenging to imagine how one develops the 3rd house experiences thru the 4th.
Does my above writing grasp the basics of how the ruler in the 4th would facilitate the evolutionary mode of operation-in this case the north node in the 3rd?
I'm hoping i somewhat answered my own question, but need some feedback to process this.
thank you again,
bradley j
Stephan,
Once again very, very exceptional work. You are a natural Evolutionary Astrologer.
Rad
Bradley,
Quote
My confusion was that, initially, my mind was logically thinking that someone would have this happen in a reverse direction-like the 3rd house experiences would lead to the development of the 4th house sphere.
So, it is currently more challenging to imagine how one develops the 3rd house experiences thru the 4th.
Does my above writing grasp the basics of how the ruler in the 4th would facilitate the evolutionary mode of operation-in this case the north node in the 3rd?
I'm hoping i somewhat answered my own question, but need some feedback to process this.
thank you again,
You are on the right track relative to what constitutes 'security' for the person in this example. Read, in Wolf's book , the first one, the section on 4th House Pluto's. This should help you flesh this in.
Rad
Okay, I will.
Thanks Rad.
Bradley J
Hi, I had a specific question regarding Stephen's post #148:"Pluto 7th/s.n. 9th/early individuated"
Stephen, you wrote: "Since they are moving through the early stages of the Individuated Soul State, these principles will not be based upon a religious context (consensus reality), but instead will be founded upon the Soul's own developing spiritual context."
My question is: How is it that we know for sure we can rule out the possibility of exeriencing spirituality and new perspectives on natural laws thru study of religion from another culture?
It makes sense that it would be a casting off of the consensus reality's accepted "mainstream" religion.
If anyone would like to speak more on this, it would be a blessing.
Stephen, thank you for your contributions, it is a blessing.
and the same to everyone here.
thanks,
Bradley J
To current and future begining students of EA:
Perhaps you feel a bit shy to chime in with such stellar EA astrologers posting here.
I've been thinking often about how valuable both sides of the spectrum are.
We learn a lot from reading posts of those who grasp the principles and concepts of EA and can verbalize it clearly and fully.
AND ALSO, it is just as valuable to here how we attempt to interpret when we don't know for sure.
The direct feedback we are able to recieve here to understand our mis-interpertations is amazing to accelarate a true knowing of this body of knowledge.
Just a little encouragement and vote of confidence for us beginers to chime in.
Rad's QuoteOk, feels like it's time to move forwards with our practice chart. We will stay with this one and now add the location of the planetary rulers for the S. and N.Nodes. Let's put the planetary ruler of the S.Node in the 11th House, and the location of the N.Node [planetary ruler] in the 4th House. And please keep in mind that we are, again, talking about a Soul just moving into the 1st stage individuated: within the last few lifetimes.
I am working on this one now.
Once again I won't read the others, so that I can come from my own fresh viewpoint and understanding.
Thanks Rad and everyone!
Hi all,
Reading over Stephen's latest post, I had this question come to me.
So, of all the stages of evolution of the soul, it is currently my understanding that the early(1st) stages of the individuated state brings the greatest need for the soul to currently come into their own independent sense of self(at the start of throwing off the limits of consensus reality) and develop freedom in their life to do this work.
In regards to houses that pluto could be in, it is my current understanding that the 7th house pluto(w/ppp 1st) suggests more than any other pluto placement the need for the soul to begin to be independent in their experience of self before entering relationship. Also, this process of freeing the self and realizing the self.(An 8th house pluto was the only other placement that I knew of that would be similar in developing self reliance and sense of self)
So, the question is, as much as this combination of evolutionary stage and pluto's house placement emphasize the same direction, is this the most this direction would be pointed to from all the possible combinations of pluto by house and current evolutionary stage?
Bradley,
Quote from: Bradley J on Sep 14, 2009, 12:13 PM
Hi, I had a specific question regarding Stephen's post #148:"Pluto 7th/s.n. 9th/early individuated"
Stephen, you wrote: "Since they are moving through the early stages of the Individuated Soul State, these principles will not be based upon a religious context (consensus reality), but instead will be founded upon the Soul's own developing spiritual context."
My question is: How is it that we know for sure we can rule out the possibility of exeriencing spirituality and new perspectives on natural laws thru study of religion from another culture?
It makes sense that it would be a casting off of the consensus reality's accepted "mainstream" religion.
If anyone would like to speak more on this, it would be a blessing.
Stephen, thank you for your contributions, it is a blessing.
and the same to everyone here.
thanks,
Bradley J
We can not know that for sure, and, in fact, it is common at this stage of evolution for the Soul to do just that because, at this stage, it is learning the 'relativity' of 'truths' defined by various and varied philosophies or religions. Via the 7th House S.Node this then set's in motion a process of comparison and evaluation that satisfies the desire of the Soul to break free from the defining religion/ philosophy of the culture of birth.
Rad
Bradley,
Quote from: Bradley J on Sep 15, 2009, 08:40 AM
Hi all,
Reading over Stephen's latest post, I had this question come to me.
So, of all the stages of evolution of the soul, it is currently my understanding that the early(1st) stages of the individuated state brings the greatest need for the soul to currently come into their own independent sense of self(at the start of throwing off the limits of consensus reality) and develop freedom in their life to do this work.
In regards to houses that pluto could be in, it is my current understanding that the 7th house pluto(w/ppp 1st) suggests more than any other pluto placement the need for the soul to begin to be independent in their experience of self before entering relationship. Also, this process of freeing the self and realizing the self.(An 8th house pluto was the only other placement that I knew of that would be similar in developing self reliance and sense of self)
So, the question is, as much as this combination of evolutionary stage and pluto's house placement emphasize the same direction, is this the most this direction would be pointed to from all the possible combinations of pluto by house and current evolutionary stage?
Actually, the most difficult, at this stage of evolution, is the 4th House Pluto.
Rad
Quote from: Rad on Sep 14, 2009, 11:07 AM
Stephan,
Once again very, very exceptional work. You are a natural Evolutionary Astrologer.
Rad
Rad,
That is very very kind and gracious of you...after only a handful of postings on my part!
Thanks very much for the encouragement. I am taking copious notes looking for the 'rules of the paradigm abstract at the conceptual level' (as the saying goes). I think that if I develop skill in reading a chart through the definitive parameters of the EA Paradigm, then I leave the door open for the possibility of development of a focused intuition, which will come through me from the God'dess and will also then be within the parameters of the EA Paradigm.
I would say again to anyone wanting to learn this paradigm...from my point of view (as a beginner to Astrology), absolutely purchase not only Pluto volume I by Jeffrey Wolf Green, but definitely purchase Pluto and Your Karmic Mission by Deva Crystal Green, as well.
Additionally, budget in the EA Coursework consisting of DVDs with JWG actually teaching classes, as soon as possible.
Blessings to you for your help Rad,
Stephen
Quote from: Bradley J on Sep 14, 2009, 12:13 PM
Hi, I had a specific question regarding Stephen's post #148:"Pluto 7th/s.n. 9th/early individuated"
Stephen, you wrote: "Since they are moving through the early stages of the Individuated Soul State, these principles will not be based upon a religious context (consensus reality), but instead will be founded upon the Soul's own developing spiritual context."
My question is: How is it that we know for sure we can rule out the possibility of exeriencing spirituality and new perspectives on natural laws thru study of religion from another culture?
It makes sense that it would be a casting off of the consensus reality's accepted "mainstream" religion.
If anyone would like to speak more on this, it would be a blessing.
Stephen, thank you for your contributions, it is a blessing.
and the same to everyone here.
thanks,
Bradley J
Hi Bradley J,
You are welcome...and thanks for that kind compliment!
(I am trying to skim the responses, without reading any that speak on the current assignment, so that I can stay current with the board.)
A
good question...
As I understand it, a Soul within the consensus reality evolutionary stage, correlating with Saturn, can be identified by its
adherence to a definite (and therefore defining) structure, and thus to previously defined man-made structures (an example being religion).
A Soul in the Individuating stage, correlating with Uranus, can alternatively be recognized by its
rebellion against defining structure and the inherent limitations introduced through the very process of definition [a thing is defined as 'this' which implicitly contains 'not-this']. In other words, when something is defined/described, you are being told what it is...but are also simultaneously learning the myriad things which it is not and cannot be.
The early Individuating Soul is in a state of intense questioning, while at the same time attempting to throw off (rebel against) defining structures, one of which is the man-made protocol of religion. So, in its quest to uncover the 'Truth of Reality', so to speak, its questioning would lead the Soul to seek answers from any source (including religions) while at the same time not adhering to the provided context of that source (religion in this example), but instead adhering to the parameters of its own developing spiritual context. The information/lessons/experiences could additionally come from any particular religion, mainstream or alternative, but the defining structure will no longer come from those sources, but will instead come from within the questioning Individuating Soul.
I don't think the Individuating Soul would "rule out" ANY source, unless possibly a distortion is present in that person's thinking. What I mean by that is"¦it seems possible that the early individuating person could 'turn against' a certain viewpoint in absolute rebellion (distortion). For example: perhaps a Roman Catholic in first individuated could turn against the very concept of Catholicism in the early intense questioning phase, and move 180 degrees away (polarity) from that teaching in order to break away from any indoctrination which is constraining the Soul. However, that "˜break-away' phase could be limited in duration by the very intensity of their questioning, and then afterwards, they may perhaps find something of value in those previously discarded teachings.
This is the understanding of this issue that I currently have, and would not only welcome correction and further insights, but actually request them!
Blessings,
Stephen
[I wrote this before I saw Rad's answer, but thought to post it anyway.]
Hi Rad and students,
If you need to move on to the next practice chart, please go ahead. Don't want to hold you up.
I will send my SN ruler 11th and NN ruler 4th in a few days.
Linda
While reviewing information for the next phase of this assignment (planetary rulers), an EA Paradigm question arose which I would like to have clarified.
from Deva's book:
Pluto correlates with the Soul, and the pre-existing patterns of identity association, desires, and the bottom-line orientation of a person coming into their current life. Because Pluto contains all the desires and intentions of the evolutionary past, it correlates with the generalized phenomenon of karma.
The South Node correlates with the past egocentric structure of the Soul, and the past self-image that the Soul created in order to consciously actualize the desires and intentions symbolized by the natal position of Pluto.
from the Archived Message Board [2001.04.09]:
Q: In the chart, or the current life, is the karma or things that are being worked on, a direct result of the most recent previous life or could it be something from 10 lifetimes ago? Is the good and bad karma 'immediate' or does it spread itself out?
Jeffrey: The karma being lived out in a specific life can be as immediate as the most recent prior life or as distant as thousands of centuries ago, with all combinations in between ...... this is called 'pralbad' karma from a sanskrit point of view which means in any given life we are not drawing upon ALL previous lives, only the one's that directly correlate to the current life evolutionary and karmic purpose... [editor footnote: I believe the Sanskrit word referred to is usually spelled Prarabdha in English - Steve]
My Question(s):
Does the 7th Pluto represent an orientation which has been interleaved with other orientations (other Pluto House/Sign combinations)? So, for example, a Soul works on Pluto 7th issues alternating with working on other issues, as well, over lifetimes (Pluto 7th recently, Pluto 7th 300 yrs ago..with other karma being worked on in-between)? Or...are the 7th Pluto issues dealt with sequentially over the last series of lives?
If sequential series of lives: Is this the Mars/Pluto phasal structure which lets you know when this series is complete, and the issue learned/resolved/finalized?
Also, does the South Node represent only the previous egocentric structure from the immediately preceding past lifetime, or does it represent multiple previous lifetimes simultaneously?
If multiple lifetimes: If as per the JWG quote above, these are lifetimes that are spread over time (and the 7th Pluto is an orientation which is interleaved with other Pluto House orientations), then is this lifetime's South Node representative only of those past egocentric structures which correspond to the 7th House Pluto (in this example - recently, 300 yrs ago, etc...)? Or, stated another way: If a Soul is only "drawing upon" those current lives "that directly correlate to the current life evolutionary and karmic purpose" then is the current South Node only representative of those past egocentric structures?
Thanks for any clarity anyone can provide on this issue...
Blessings,
Stephen
QuoteAlso, does the South Node represent only the previous egocentric structure from the immediately preceding past lifetime, or does it represent multiple previous lifetimes simultaneously?
I'll put in my ten cents on this part. The south node corresponds to what in Sanskrit is called samskaras - past-life psychological tendencies, habit patterns. Remember, it is the south node of the MOON and the moon represents our self-image, our emotions, the way we emotionally see our self. That self-image has developed over endless lifetimes.
If one has built up the habit over lives of responding with truth, gentleness, kindness, respect, etc. then the south node in the present life is going to subconsciously act from that perspective from the earliest days of the present life. And of course the opposite is also true.
This explains WHY it is "so hard to change". The Soul's vehicle of personality has just gotten used to being a certain way, to doing things in certain ways. Why change, what's the point? So we have a Pluto polarity point which at key times will inject circumstances into the human life (Moon) that will cause the status quo of the south node to simply no longer work. What we know will not be enough to cope with what we are being presented with, (which is placed there by our own Soul), creating a crisis major or minor which forces us to learn new ways, the direction of the intended new ways symbolized by the north node. Learning those new ways then fulfills the evolutionary intent of the Pluto polarity point. That is how the node acts as an agent or vehicle of the intents of the Pluto polarity point.
Your question was excellent. My sense would be the "south node" does not change much from life to life. As Yogananda said, the average person changes very little from life to life. Therefore 1) evolution for them is slow, and thus 2) the south node, representing their past, is not going to change much from life to life.
Steve
Stephan,
Quote
My Question(s):
Does the 7th Pluto represent an orientation which has been interleaved with other orientations (other Pluto House/Sign combinations)?
No
Quote
So, for example, a Soul works on Pluto 7th issues alternating with working on other issues, as well, over lifetimes (Pluto 7th recently, Pluto 7th 300 yrs ago..with other karma being worked on in-between)? Or...are the 7th Pluto issues dealt with sequentially over the last series of lives?
If sequential series of lives: Is this the Mars/Pluto phasal structure which lets you know when this series is complete, and the issue learned/resolved/finalized?
Yes, symbolized in that Mars/Pluto phase.
Quote
Also, does the South Node represent only the previous egocentric structure from the immediately preceding past lifetime, or does it represent multiple previous lifetimes simultaneously?
Multiple.
Quote
If multiple lifetimes: If as per the JWG quote above, these are lifetimes that are spread over time (and the 7th Pluto is an orientation which is interleaved with other Pluto House orientations),
It is not interwoven with other Pluto house placements.
Quote
then is this lifetime's South Node representative only of those past egocentric structures which correspond to the 7th House Pluto (in this example - recently, 300 yrs ago, etc...)? Or, stated another way: If a Soul is only "drawing upon" those current lives "that directly correlate to the current life evolutionary and karmic purpose" then is the current South Node only representative of those past egocentric structures?
Yes
Rad
Hi All,
I want to add this to the discussion that Stephan has brought up. We need to resist the left brain's temptation to make things to linear. There are so many different ways, reflected in the EA symbols, that correlates to the ongoing evolutionary intentions of the Soul including the past life dynamics that bring it into a given life. For example a Soul that has the current life birth chart with a Pluto in the 7th, S.Node in the 9th, and it's planetary ruler in the 11th could have had a series of past lifetimes with a variety of symbols that all correlate to these archetypal themes as symbolized in the current life birth chart: a prior life in which the Pluto itself was in the 9th in Libra, the S.Node in Leo in the 7th conjunct Uranus, it's planetary ruler, the Sun, in Aries in the 3rd. Thus, coming into the current life finding the Pluto in the 7th, the S.Node in the 9th, the ruler in the 11th, with the current polarity point of Pluto in the 1st House, N.Node in the 3rd, planetary ruler in the 4th. There are so many, many different ways to illustrate this. Hopefully, this little example should illustrate the point here.
Also: it's not so that the S.Node , prior life ego's, stay in the same sign for many, many lifetimes.
Rad
7th house Pluto - early 1st stage individuated
9th house SN - SN ruler in the 11th house
3rd house NN - NN ruler in the 4th house
In the evolutionary condition of early 1st stage individuated, the individual now ceases to feel "normal" in the mainstream of society and compensates by undertaking normal kinds of study in mainstream institutions, by joining established social groups, and by conforming to the consensus idea of relationships.
Due to the compensation factor, his individuality, purpose, values and beliefs at this stage are just extensions of the "norms" of his peer group or the mainstream of society. Even while "living a lie" he feels different from most people around him and continues to search for truth and knowledge. He is making choices whether to pursue that which is different or to deny or suppress it by continuing with his façade.
He takes a few steps to break free, but finds that his natural innovation can threaten the traditional ways of his peer group. He tries to keep the peace at all costs, and retracts. He keeps trying to break free throughout life, each time loosening the binds of the society that are strangling his freedom.
He has a need to break free from the early influence of society, parents, teachers and friends and from outmoded self-definitions. His need to be liberated from the past allows him to pursue his search for knowledge in a detached and objective way. He is attracted to teachers and groups that naturally resonate to what he is trying to become and express, especially ones that are more independent-minded. Anything from the mainstream that is preventing growth leads to shocks that force him to sever the old attachments.
So far his Pluto dynamic is made up of the elements Air and Fire. The 7th house Pluto, the 3rd house NN, and the SN ruler in the 11th form a Grand Trine by house and this indicates elements of idealism, insight, vision, optimism and inspiration. Negatively, he could have a self-indulgent temperament. His philosophies based on his understanding of natural laws are generally mutable (free-flowing and dimensional) as well as cardinal (new and instinctive). He has a need to explore many ideologies because of a natural innovative capacity. He can form: (1) intimate relationships, (2) teacher-student relationships, (3) personal friendships, and (4) associations with independent groups.
With a 7th house Pluto he has a compulsive need to explore new approaches to relationships in order to feel whole. These relationships are based on his idea of natural truth and support the formulation of his comprehensive philosophical belief system. He seeks many friendships of like mind within new social groups. Natural laws are interpreted according to his early 1st stage individuated evolutionary condition.
Since mainstream ideas of what relationships are about do not live up to his intuitive understanding of what they are really about (natural law), he will eventually break free from stereotypical-type partners, and traditional institutions, to pursue relationships that reflect his need for ongoing evolution and freedom. Any ingredient in relationships that is preventing growth will need to be changed or eliminated.
To discover who he is through others, and to learn about social values, he interacts with a wide variety of people in group situations with whom he can share, compare and evaluate his ideas. He has a tendency to become overly dependent on the outside sources, friendships and groups as a means of defining himself. He absorbs the different realities and different belief systems of others to integrate them into his comprehensive belief system. He is not dogmatic about his beliefs at this stage of evolution.
He would attract powerful teacher-types in group situations who he believes can help him in his search for truth and knowledge. At first he puts the teacher up on a pedestal, mirrors back the right answers, and constantly seeks validation of his belief system. Relationships will be approached in a similar manner where he would adopt the partner's views and beliefs since his own individuality is undeveloped. He becomes utterly dependent on his partner/teacher/or peer group for a sense of personal fulfilment and meaning.
Group and individual differences will generally be tolerated, accepted and encouraged. As the chart so far does not suggest conformity or strong introversion, this individual is unlikely to identify with fringe groups, and will have many friends and groups associations. As he is in the early individuated state he will belong to more independent minded or community groups.
Obsolete fixed ideas or visions will be challenged if he imposes them onto the teachers or the group. These could lead to isolation by others, which leads to an objective awareness of his attachments to fixed ideas, which leads to the development of new patterns. Progressively he learns to detach from anyone or anything that is preventing further growth, he starts to think for himself, his true beliefs coming out. The exposure to new information is different to his previous education and culture. He is forced to change or eliminate his association with certain groups that are preventing further growth, and this sets him on a new path in order to break free and to find other relationships and groups that are more conducive to who he is trying to become.
The imbalances, deficiencies and distortions in these types of relationships will produce internal and external confrontations, which force him to examine the difficulties, the main lesson being inequality or losing oneself to others.
As the feeling of alienation and "differentness" increases he throws off the old beliefs as quickly as possible, and he seeks the freedom to find new teachers and groups with new social visions or partners who reflect the new growth. He observes the differences in other groups, so that awareness is created of his connection to everyone else in an objective way.
As he continues to search and explore, he may not stay in one place or commit to one relationship or one group long enough, and may experience times when he is a loner. Not being able to adequately express his intuitive knowledge reinforces his sense of alienation, but because his personal power and security lie in relationships, he will seek them out again.
He expresses love by giving his ideological viewpoint as somehow the "answer" and in this way his own needs get met. As he becomes adept at understanding the reality of the other, or the needs of the group, he is able to give generously to others his own ideological viewpoint based on natural truth that the individual or the group needs, and this develops and strengthens his own inner balance.
* * *
1st house Pluto polarity
3rd house NN - NN ruler in the 4th house
He eventually realizes he has been giving away his power to unequal relationships, teacher figures and groups. He learns to trust in his own decisions, appreciates time for himself, and becomes self-motivating. As the 1st house Pluto polarity is developed and expressed, he will progressively learn that the answers lie within himself; he will minimize his dependency on powerful partners/teachers or groups for self-validation; he will follow new paths that lead him to learn more about himself; he will balance his need for relationships with his need for time alone; and he will develop his individuality more fully. In these ways he revolutionizes and transforms himself.
He leaves the past behind in order to develop new ideas or ways of relating to himself and others. He is able to radically transform who he was. Through new ideas, he forms relationships and social bonds to others of independent-mind, and plays a unique role in the group that reflects his orientation to life. He understands what is different and unique about himself through contrast or comparison with others. As he is future-oriented he can develop social visions as to how a group of people should change in order to progress and grow.
The philosophical and intellectual confrontations lead to the development of the 3rd house NN. He is able to compare the weaknesses in his own beliefs with different points of view, and this opens him up to accept that there are many paths to truth and each person has their own path. Education transforms into mutual sharing of knowledge and information.
He learns that in order to be able to disseminate the knowledge of natural law that is inherent in his nature, he needs to strengthen his written and oral communication skills, and needs to communicate in a logical way.
As the NN ruler is situated in the 4th house, the information that is absorbed, collected and disseminated supplies him with a sense of internal security. As he is minimizing external dependencies on teachers/partners and groups, he is forced back in upon himself to examine his inner emotional dynamics. He learns to trust and know himself on an inner level, and he is then able to empathetically or sympathetically give to others the exact information or truth that they need.
Quote from: Steve on Sep 18, 2009, 04:54 PM
QuoteAlso, does the South Node represent only the previous egocentric structure from the immediately preceding past lifetime, or does it represent multiple previous lifetimes simultaneously?
I'll put in my ten cents on this part. The south node corresponds to what in Sanskrit is called samskaras - past-life psychological tendencies, habit patterns. Remember, it is the south node of the MOON and the moon represents our self-image, our emotions, the way we emotionally see our self. That self-image has developed over endless lifetimes.
If one has built up the habit over lives of responding with truth, gentleness, kindness, respect, etc. then the south node in the present life is going to subconsciously act from that perspective from the earliest days of the present life. And of course the opposite is also true.
This explains WHY it is "so hard to change". The Soul's vehicle of personality has just gotten used to being a certain way, to doing things in certain ways. Why change, what's the point? So we have a Pluto polarity point which at key times will inject circumstances into the human life (Moon) that will cause the status quo of the south node to simply no longer work. What we know will not be enough to cope with what we are being presented with, (which is placed there by our own Soul), creating a crisis major or minor which forces us to learn new ways, the direction of the intended new ways symbolized by the north node. Learning those new ways then fulfills the evolutionary intent of the Pluto polarity point. That is how the node acts as an agent or vehicle of the intents of the Pluto polarity point.
Your question was excellent. My sense would be the "south node" does not change much from life to life. As Yogananda said, the average person changes very little from life to life. Therefore 1) evolution for them is slow, and thus 2) the south node, representing their past, is not going to change much from life to life.
Steve
Thank you Steve, very much, for another illuminating response!
I am contemplating this Paradigm, and so you have give me another light to ponder by...
Thank you from my Heart for your time, Steve.
Blessings,
Stephen
Quote from: Rad on Sep 19, 2009, 11:14 AM
Hi All,
I want to add this to the discussion that Stephan has brought up. We need to resist the left brain's temptation to make things to linear. There are so many different ways, reflected in the EA symbols, that correlates to the ongoing evolutionary intentions of the Soul including the past life dynamics that bring it into a given life. For example a Soul that has the current life birth chart with a Pluto in the 7th, S.Node in the 9th, and it's planetary ruler in the 11th could have had a series of past lifetimes with a variety of symbols that all correlate to these archetypal themes as symbolized in the current life birth chart: a prior life in which the Pluto itself was in the 9th in Libra, the S.Node in Leo in the 7th conjunct Uranus, it's planetary ruler, the Sun, in Aries in the 3rd. Thus, coming into the current life finding the Pluto in the 7th, the S.Node in the 9th, the ruler in the 11th, with the current polarity point of Pluto in the 1st House, N.Node in the 3rd, planetary ruler in the 4th. There are so many, many different ways to illustrate this. Hopefully, this little example should illustrate the point here.
Also: it's not so that the S.Node , prior life ego's, stay in the same sign for many, many lifetimes.
Rad
Thank you Rad for these two responses.
"...resist the left brain's temptation to make things to linear."
Very timely advice for me, personally (since I brought this up). I have a tendency towards seeking a basic structure, and then working from that structure outward, in order to try to gain a 'foothold' upon the conceptual basis of a new worldview (in this case for me, both Astrology and the EA Paradigm itself).
"Hopefully, this little example should illustrate the point here."
Wow... Viewpoint expansion...
Your response was very very helpful, making me glad I asked the question. I would like to be able to keep asking these types of conceptual structural questions, if the answers that they generate from the teachers/mentors are bringing value to the other interested students...? They are definitely helping in my understanding and direction, and tuning this paradigm for me personally.
Studying this paradigm is opening me up to understand and help myself, and bringing benefit to those in my life as I try to grow through that blossoming understanding.
It is becoming one of my true pleasures to learn this approach to Awakening. One day I hope to share this pleasure with others by using this Paradigm to show them a way to open their own doors to an understanding leading to Awakening.
Thanks Rad for your time and your teaching and your patience,
A Blessing Be upon All who Read This,
Stephen
Hi Linda
Quote from: Linda on Sep 20, 2009, 01:40 AM
7th house Pluto - early 1st stage individuated
9th house SN - SN ruler in the 11th house
3rd house NN - NN ruler in the 4th house
In the evolutionary condition of early 1st stage individuated, the individual now ceases to feel "normal" in the mainstream of society and compensates by undertaking normal kinds of study in mainstream institutions, by joining established social groups, and by conforming to the consensus idea of relationships.
Due to the compensation factor, his individuality, purpose, values and beliefs at this stage are just extensions of the "norms" of his peer group or the mainstream of society. Even while "living a lie" he feels different from most people around him and continues to search for truth and knowledge. He is making choices whether to pursue that which is different or to deny or suppress it by continuing with his façade.
He takes a few steps to break free, but finds that his natural innovation can threaten the traditional ways of his peer group. He tries to keep the peace at all costs, and retracts. He keeps trying to break free throughout life, each time loosening the binds of the society that are strangling his freedom.
He has a need to break free from the early influence of society, parents, teachers and friends and from outmoded self-definitions. His need to be liberated from the past allows him to pursue his search for knowledge in a detached and objective way. He is attracted to teachers and groups that naturally resonate to what he is trying to become and express, especially ones that are more independent-minded. Anything from the mainstream that is preventing growth leads to shocks that force him to sever the old attachments.
Quote
So far his Pluto dynamic is made up of the elements Air and Fire. The 7th house Pluto, the 3rd house NN, and the SN ruler in the 11th form a Grand Trine by house and this indicates elements of idealism, insight, vision, optimism and inspiration. Negatively, he could have a self-indulgent temperament. His philosophies based on his understanding of natural laws are generally mutable (free-flowing and dimensional) as well as cardinal (new and instinctive). He has a need to explore many ideologies because of a natural innovative capacity. He can form: (1) intimate relationships, (2) teacher-student relationships, (3) personal friendships, and (4) associations with independent groups.
At this stage of evolution the individual would have very little understanding of Natural Laws or be actively, consciously, pursuing philosophies or cosmologies that reflect such Natural Laws. At this stage it is much more about casting off the consensus beliefs, philosophies, and religions of the culture/society of birth and embracing, checking out, philosophies, religions, and beliefs from other cultures. This initial effort at this stage reflects the Soul's desire to understand the 'relativity' of beliefs, etc that then breaks the death hold upon the consensus understandings of the society of birth. Rad
QuoteWith a 7th house Pluto he has a compulsive need to explore new approaches to relationships in order to feel whole. These relationships are based on his idea of natural truth and support the formulation of his comprehensive philosophical belief system. He seeks many friendships of like mind within new social groups. Natural laws are interpreted according to his early 1st stage individuated evolutionary condition.
The person does not have an idea of Natural Truth yet, not even a comprehensive philosophical belief system yet at this stage of evolution, and, again no real understanding of Natural Laws. Everything at this point is experimental. Thus, the individuals relationships are with others of like mind. Rad
QuoteSince mainstream ideas of what relationships are about do not live up to his intuitive understanding of what they are really about (natural law), he will eventually break free from stereotypical-type partners, and traditional institutions, to pursue relationships that reflect his need for ongoing evolution and freedom. Any ingredient in relationships that is preventing growth will need to be changed or eliminated.
All is true here except the Natural Law part again. Rad
To discover who he is through others, and to learn about social values, he interacts with a wide variety of people in group situations with whom he can share, compare and evaluate his ideas. He has a tendency to become overly dependent on the outside sources, friendships and groups as a means of defining himself. He absorbs the different realities and different belief systems of others to integrate them into his comprehensive belief system. He is not dogmatic about his beliefs at this stage of evolution.
He would attract powerful teacher-types in group situations who he believes can help him in his search for truth and knowledge. At first he puts the teacher up on a pedestal, mirrors back the right answers, and constantly seeks validation of his belief system. Relationships will be approached in a similar manner where he would adopt the partner's views and beliefs since his own individuality is undeveloped. He becomes utterly dependent on his partner/teacher/or peer group for a sense of personal fulfilment and meaning.
Group and individual differences will generally be tolerated, accepted and encouraged. As the chart so far does not suggest conformity or strong introversion, this individual is unlikely to identify with fringe groups, and will have many friends and groups associations. As he is in the early individuated state he will belong to more independent minded or community groups.
Obsolete fixed ideas or visions will be challenged if he imposes them onto the teachers or the group. These could lead to isolation by others, which leads to an objective awareness of his attachments to fixed ideas, which leads to the development of new patterns. Progressively he learns to detach from anyone or anything that is preventing further growth, he starts to think for himself, his true beliefs coming out. The exposure to new information is different to his previous education and culture. He is forced to change or eliminate his association with certain groups that are preventing further growth, and this sets him on a new path in order to break free and to find other relationships and groups that are more conducive to who he is trying to become.
The imbalances, deficiencies and distortions in these types of relationships will produce internal and external confrontations, which force him to examine the difficulties, the main lesson being inequality or losing oneself to others.
As the feeling of alienation and "differentness" increases he throws off the old beliefs as quickly as possible, and he seeks the freedom to find new teachers and groups with new social visions or partners who reflect the new growth. He observes the differences in other groups, so that awareness is created of his connection to everyone else in an objective way.
As he continues to search and explore, he may not stay in one place or commit to one relationship or one group long enough, and may experience times when he is a loner. Not being able to adequately express his intuitive knowledge reinforces his sense of alienation, but because his personal power and security lie in relationships, he will seek them out again.
QuoteHe expresses love by giving his ideological viewpoint as somehow the "answer" and in this way his own needs get met. As he becomes adept at understanding the reality of the other, or the needs of the group, he is able to give generously to others his own ideological viewpoint based on natural truth that the individual or the group needs, and this develops and strengthens his own inner balance.
The individual does not have an ideology at this point or, again, any real understanding of the Natural Laws that define Creation itself. Again, the individuals orientations to philosophical understandings is much more experimental in which various ideas/ beliefs, philosophies are 'tried on' for awhile and moving on to others. The individuals expression of love is much more about encouraging the independent examination of free thinking about everything in the partner's that the person involves them self with. Rad
* * *
1st house Pluto polarity
3rd house NN - NN ruler in the 4th house
He eventually realizes he has been giving away his power to unequal relationships, teacher figures and groups. He learns to trust in his own decisions, appreciates time for himself, and becomes self-motivating. As the 1st house Pluto polarity is developed and expressed, he will progressively learn that the answers lie within himself; he will minimize his dependency on powerful partners/teachers or groups for self-validation; he will follow new paths that lead him to learn more about himself; he will balance his need for relationships with his need for time alone; and he will develop his individuality more fully. In these ways he revolutionizes and transforms himself.
He leaves the past behind in order to develop new ideas or ways of relating to himself and others. He is able to radically transform who he was. Through new ideas, he forms relationships and social bonds to others of independent-mind, and plays a unique role in the group that reflects his orientation to life. He understands what is different and unique about himself through contrast or comparison with others. As he is future-oriented he can develop social visions as to how a group of people should change in order to progress and grow.
The philosophical and intellectual confrontations lead to the development of the 3rd house NN. He is able to compare the weaknesses in his own beliefs with different points of view, and this opens him up to accept that there are many paths to truth and each person has their own path. Education transforms into mutual sharing of knowledge and information.
QuoteHe learns that in order to be able to disseminate the knowledge of natural law that is inherent in his nature, he needs to strengthen his written and oral communication skills, and needs to communicate in a logical way.
The individual is not disseminating the knowledge of Natural Law. That would not occur until much, much more evolution on the individuals part. The individual is disseminating free thinking and association from a philosophical point of view, of learning how to communicate in a variety of ways that reflects the individual realties of others, and, in so doing, show others the 'relativity' of their own beliefs as contrasted and compared with other beliefs systems from far and wife. In essence, to help others open up their own consciousness in order to expand it. Rad
As the NN ruler is situated in the 4th house, the information that is absorbed, collected and disseminated supplies him with a sense of internal security. As he is minimizing external dependencies on teachers/partners and groups, he is forced back in upon himself to examine his inner emotional dynamics. He learns to trust and know himself on an inner level, and he is then able to empathetically or sympathetically give to others the exact information or truth that they need.
A real good effort Linda. Keep it up.
Rad
SN 9th, ruler in 11th
SN 3rd, ruler in 4th
7h Pluto
Early 1st stage individuated.
Our soul has transitioned out of a consensus state of consciousness in which certain ideas and beliefs are blindly accepted as true. Previous to this lifetime, the soul has chosen to be a part of or involved in community of individuals/ or a communal ideology/organization that all shared a common outlook on reality. What is clear so far is that this community of people, be or localized or a widespread organization, was a trigger for the soul to perceive the very beliefs it was liberating from. This soul has been recently involved with such people, living like them, forming intimate relationships with them etc- yet all the while feeling increasingly more alienated and different. One possible example is being born into an upper class "golf club" type of society in which having a lot of money is better than being poor. Uncle is a fundamentalist something or another and the soul is dating someone who thinks that social progress is found in tighter government participation and monitoring of all communication media.
The 11th house ruler indicates that the soul has been looking for a new way of living, yet will feel very alienated. For this soul coming out of consensus state, he/she may be constantly faced with mainstream elitist thinkers or radical philosophies that though they are unique, they are still a reflection of consensus thinking.
In essence, the soul has to liberate from it's own objectified, detached outlook on life that doesn't hold space for an honest examination of what is. The soul needs to be strong and comfortable in speaking out, and possibly being excommunicated/ rejected by their community. This could be very daunting, as there may be a soul memory of being persecuted, or an overt awareness of that possibility, as a consequence of being different. The 11th house ruler emphasizes that this soul may tend to stay very quiet at first all the while harboring a feeling of frustration, but gradually care less and less about other people's reactions- and speak out!
7h Pluto indicates that the soul's greatest source of security is the feeling of being accepted and liked. So it is very likely that the soul would tend towards "agreeing" easily, and even rationalizing to itself why the beliefs and lifestyle of their partners are valid and livable. As spoken earlier, the soul will occasionally create relationships with other souls who are also confused about the consensus values. Via the reflection of being the dominant- ie being the partner with all the answers- the soul will realize ever more deeply the limitations in the consensus thinking.
That may go as far as sexual expectation. The soul will at first cut off and suppress any subversive sexual inclinations (such as non hetero-sexual relationships, or forms sexual experimentation, or simply non traditional gender roles in relationship)- whatever isn't regarded as "the right way" by the society they come from. This soul needs to experiment and allow his/herself the opportunity to try new ways of relating. Because of the evolutionary state of the soul, they will surely attract partners at some point that will be just as open- the challenge however is for the soul to not get stuck in their own conditioned thinking.
The key:
For evolution to occur, we must look at the ruler of the nn. The ruler of the nn indicates what needs to be developed in this life in order for the soul to access their voice, write their articles, speak out (3h nn)- leading to a self love and confidence that attracts equal and balanced relationships with souls that are also interested in free thinking.
4h ruler of nn indicates the need to emotionally process their experiences. To do this, they need to be discerning about who they let into their life/trust. There may have been a "hyper intellectual" orientation for this soul- as linda pointed out, with all those air and fire houses. In order for this soul to open up their mind, they have to feel safe enough to do so and get into their emotional body. This indicates boundaries and a personal sense of home.
To "go home" the soul needs to heal and complete emotional wounds from their biological family. This will happen with emotional honesty- knowing who they are as opposed to who their family expects them to be. Speaking out. The results of finally not holding back their voice may possibly be traumatic and lead to deep rejection which then forces a greater imperative to create/attract their own family, with people they can trust and openly express themselves. This many take several lifetimes- until the soul no longer needs to come into a consensus state family.
On another level, this soul may eventually find evolutionary fulfillment in activism/writing/communication that supports/relates to minorities, immigrants, women rights, birthing, animal rights etc. In all cases- the soul will be focusing on the things that it CARES about, and nurturing itself in that process.
That naturally puts the soul into communication and contact with lots of ppl of varying belief systems/ ways of looking at things. All of whom will present an opportunity for the soul to dialogue and find more perspective and ultimately find a level of self acceptance unlike anything the soul has ever felt.
QuoteYour response was very very helpful, making me glad I asked the question. I would like to be able to keep asking these types of conceptual structural questions, if the answers that they generate from the teachers/mentors are bringing value to the other interested students...?
Yes, they are!
Early 1st Individuated:
7th House Pluto with 9th House South Node, 11th House South Node Ruler
For an individual in the Early First Stage Individuated Evolutionary Condition of the Soul, how has the 7th House previous orientations/past desires (Pluto) occurred or been actualized within the last few lifetimes in the context of the 9th House Mode of Operation (South Node), with that operational mode facilitated/conditioned by an 11th House South Node Ruler?
The 7th House Pluto Soul has previously been learning the process of developing an objective awareness of its own self, and additionally attempting to understand this new-found sense of individuality through a social perspective. So, in a preliminary way, the Soul has been learning the evolutionary lesson of objectivity versus subjectivity, which includes the lessons of true listening, equality, and balance. The Soul would have been learning these lessons through its belief system (9th House South Node) as influenced by a need to break free from previous forms of self-definition (11th House South Node Ruler). Specifically, the past egocentric structure and self-image of the Soul would have been based upon the need for the person to understand them self in a philosophical or cosmological context (9th House) through these relationships (7th House). The philosophical context of this understanding would have been underscored by the need to remove, and thus liberate from, restrictive patterns of conditioning (11th House), whatever the source.
Additionally, in the early First Stage Individuated, the Soul is starting to rebel against the consensus state and against having its own self-identity be established by its association with the herd and its birth society. This has the effect of beginning the process of separating the individual from the herd through which their sense of security was previously provided. This rebellion (11th House) may possibly be reinforced through a belief system (9th House South Node) generated through the individual's association with like-minded groups (11th House South Node Ruler) whose emphasis is upon liberation from conditioning (11th House). The Soul will not only be rebelling (11th House) against consensus reality (1st Individuated), but also against any belief system (9th House) once imposed upon it at any time in its life.
Within this path of Soul growth (7th Pluto), a fundamental lesson is how to participate in relationships, and so this will be a driving force for the individual coming into this life. That particular lesson will therefore require conscious involvement within a broad diversity of relationships (7th House), leading the Soul to have an exposure to many different value systems, intellectual systems, emotional patterns, and spiritual beliefs. Since the stated rebellion (11th House) takes the form of questioning the customs and beliefs of the consensus, this diversity of relationships (7th House) will come under an intense scrutiny (1st Individuated) while the Soul learns to listen objectively in order to determine how to relate to those others, in order to gain a true understanding of others (7th House). Additionally, since it is a person's belief system which provides the method that they will use to actually interpret life, it is the developing belief system (9th House) which will determine those relationships which the individual initiates, and then chooses to continue.
These relationships will most likely be with others who are consumed by the same questions (1st Individuated) "¦ questions of a belief structure (9th House) based upon Natural Law (9th House), of liberation (11th House) from others' viewpoints, of self-identity (11th House) and its place within relationships (7th House), and of relationships (7th House) often containing the implicit imposition of a certain format of beliefs (9th House) upon the unique individuals (11th House) who participate in them.
However, this drive to form relationships (7th House) must be balanced with that deep need for liberation (11th House South Node Ruler) which is conditioning the individual's belief systems (9th House). The individuating Soul is attempting to replace its discarded belief structure with their own self-discovered structure from which they can slowly learn to draw their actions. This will be a structure designed to explain the Soul's connection to the "phenomenological nature of the universe," through which they can come to understand the Cosmos (9th House South Node) and their own unique self outside of society (11th House). This belief structure (9th House) will be facilitated by an intense need to break away from static self-definitions (11th House) as provided by both society and past relationships (1st Individuated).
As this framework is being built, the individuating person questions everything, including their relationships, and so have been investigating this developing and personal sense of truth through a diversity of relationships (7th House). They will come to view their relationships through these metaphysical or philosophical principles (9th South Node), including their relationship to the Cosmos itself. Since they are moving through the early stages of the Individuated Soul State, these principles will not be based not upon religious parameters but upon the Soul's own developing spiritual beliefs (9th House), for at the Soul's core, providing the impetus for those beliefs, is a sense of rebellion from static pre-existing structures (11th House). The Soul, in the process of discarding the limiting consensus (1st Individuated) belief structure (9th House, 11th House), will uncover the fact that there is much more to reality than the consensus viewpoint contains, and this will then further lead the individual onward in the search for a true inner identity and unique sense of self (11th House).
The Soul's unconscious emotional security structures are defined by the need to be in relationships in order to feel fulfilled and complete. However, rebellion (1st Individuated, 11th House) leads to the Soul beginning to think for itself, and thus additionally question its previous "˜assumptions' about the structure of its own reality and its own belief systems (9th House). It is therefore inevitable that the Soul will also begin to question its assumptions about its preconceived notions of relationship, and how it should act within itself, and in response to a relationship with others as it seeks to understand its own uniqueness (11th House).
However, if the Soul's rebellion and need to liberate (11th House, 1st Individuated) outweighs its attempt to realistically understand life through a metaphysical, philosophical and spiritual belief system (9th House), then this could lead to a distorted belief system. The belief system (9th House) could become then arbitrarily opposed (11th House) to any form of structure just on the basis of liberating from all conditioning (11th House), and so not be aligned with natural law.
As they begin to succeed in their search, the individuating Soul will have a sense of "˜feeling different' deep within them self. However, this sense of "˜difference' can easily lead to a sense of alienation and insecurity (11th House). This could very well cause the Soul to isolate itself due to its perceived differences (11th House) and to no longer attempt to define itself through relationships with others (distortion: 7th House). Or, due to that security which is provided through its belief system (9th House), the Soul may not listen to any belief or idea at all (distortion: 11th House), especially those which conflict with its new belief structure (distortion: 9th South Node), and in so doing drive away the very relationships that it is fundamentally seeking (distortion: 7th House). This could have the unfortunate side-effect of enforcing the growing feeling of difference, leading to further self-isolation.
If the belief system becomes static and unchanging, and the Soul comes to believe itself to have a unique understanding of The Truth (distortion: 9th House), it may only recognize those beliefs which concur with its own, and thus only accept relationships with those others who already agree with the Soul's steadily "˜hardening' belief system. This could lead to a further limitation of relationship types, which could itself very well lead to a signature of the 11th House archetype, which is Trauma. The 1st Individuated Soul needs to liberate from restrictive patterns, no matter what the source of those restrictions. Those patterns may be imposed by the consensus or through society, by partners or parents, or even from deep within "¦ from self-limiting behavior, past life memories (11th House), or early-life conditioning. The evolutionary necessity to evolve may very well activate traumatic events in the individual's life, removing from them areas of security in their own life which are causing stagnation and thus not allowing room for this essential liberation (11th House, 1st Individuated).
Another potential downfall within this particular archetype (Pluto 7th) is the possibility of an involvement in too many relationships (distortion: 7th House) and being subjected to too many differing viewpoints, which can lead to the opposite intent, which is that of a Soul losing touch with its own unique individuality (1st Individuated) and its own belief system (9th South Node). However, the drive to individuate (11th House combined with 1st Individuated), if it is strong enough, can provide a strong core of liberation (11th House South Node Ruler) from which to gain the strength to maintain this personal belief system (9th House South Node).
This inner core of rebellion (11th House) could also have the positive side-effect of diminishing a compulsive dependence on the opinions and advice of others (distortion: 7th House), and may even remove the possibility of the Soul's substitution of the understandings and beliefs (9th House) of others, concerning their own self and life-purpose, as its own. The Soul could then retain the ability to relate to itself as well as relate to others, and thereby a potential feeling of being uncomfortable while being alone will not arise (distortion: 7th House).
Also, since the old comforts of the consensus reality can still seem "˜attractive' (but will no longer truly satisfy the Soul), the Soul may mimic the outward forms of the consensus reality (distortion: 11th House) in an attempt at appearing "˜normal.' Even though this is only a surface compensation, it can have the unwanted side-effect of attracting exactly the consensus-level relationships (7th House) from which the Soul is trying to distance itself (1st Individuated).
Additionally, this form of compensation can produce a very intense feeling of "˜living a lie', even while the Soul is trying to uncover the truth, and this can itself lead to a sense of being perpetually misunderstood (distortion: 7th House). Also, as the Soul is attempting to liberate through rebellion (11th House) while at the same time being drawn into compensatory behavior (early 1st Individuated; distortion: 11th House), the tension generated through these opposite "˜pulls' can themselves generate energy within the Soul. If this energy is not allowed to "˜expand' (7th 9th 11th "˜yang' Houses) and thus become harnessed naturally (9th House) towards the Soul's need to evolve (1st Individuated) and to liberate (11th House), then that energy may move inward and cause or enforce trauma through detachment from the individual's own emotions (distortion: 11th House).
This may then lead to emotional detachment from others, within relationships and from society in general. However, this social detachment (distortion: 11th House), exacerbated from the tension generated through "˜living a lie' even while seeking the truth, can itself accelerate the developing search for truth and a belief system based upon natural law (9th House). This "˜truth' can no longer be exclusive as embedded within the truth of the consensus (1st Individuated), but will instead be inclusive as reflective of the truth of the various peoples on the entire planet.
If the Soul can retain its evolutionary impulse and direction in its search for truth (1st Individuated) through a diversity of relationships (7th House) in a philosophical and metaphysical way (9th House) while remaining true to its own unique essence (11th House) , and if the Soul is able to navigate through these potential distortions/downfalls, then an understanding (9th House) of the unique parameters of the Soul's own innate individuality (11th House) will eventually be provided by understanding itself (1st Individuated) through the changing lenses of these very relationships (7th House). This will then allow the individual to begin to learn to truly hear others' representation of reality (9th House) from a place of security in self-knowledge and self-identity (11th House), and this acceptance of differing points of view will lead to a deeper understanding of the inherent relativity of all human nature, which will possibly lead to the Soul attempting to unite that "˜newly defined' self with others (7th House) and with the Cosmos (9th House).
Thus, the lessons of a Pluto Seventh House Soul will eventually lead to the Soul's ability to provide for others' needs from the point of view of those other's own reality, which will cause the Soul to develop an equal participation through true balance in many differing types of relationships (7th House), with the Soul learning along the way to be neither subservient nor dominant. Additionally, if the Soul is able to move past its self-limiting belief structure (9th House), discarding generalizations and the sense of having the only "˜handle on the Truth' (distortion: 9th House), and additionally retaining self-awareness and self-identity through a continuous attempt to liberate from conditioning (11th House), then they may begin to view the Cosmos as it actually is, through Natural Law (9th House) which is independent of any particular belief system.
As stated within Deva Green's book (p.40), "Pluto, the South Node, and its planetary ruler is termed the trinity of the past because these symbols specifically describe the core, bottom-line dynamics that have been operative in the Soul's past, and will be the natural point of gravitation for the Soul coming into this life relative to emotional security. We can now understand the current operative dynamics of the Soul in the present moment in time."
As per that "˜past alignment' within the Evolutionary Axis (Pluto/Pluto Polarity Point, Moon's Nodes and Nodal Rulers), the many probable downfalls/shortcomings/distortions will possibly be lessened in an individual in the 1st Individuated Stage as reinforced through the potential for "˜liberation from conditioning' inherent within the 11th House archetype, in its position as facilitator of the 9th House Mode of Operation of the Soul's previous desires, patterns and orientations (7th Pluto).
However, to change these existing patterns and to rise above the potential for these distortions, with the effect of altering the pre-existing dynamics and so continue the Soul's evolution, will involve moving in the direction of the Pluto Polarity Point (1st House), which reflects those necessary evolutionary requirements which this Soul needs to develop.
I was reflecting on this further-
Is it necessarily true that this soul comes into a consensus family? I don't think it is. Perhaps we need more chart information before any conclusion could be made?
All, thanks for the posts and participation.
Rad and all,
I would like to ask again my question which I was not so clear in my initial asking. I noticed that Linda and Ari Moshe's interpretations illustrated the point of my question.
I am confused in the 4th house ruler of the north node facilitating the 3rd house(n.n.) mode because-to me I am reading two different things here.
In Linda's example, she says that that the information will supply the internal security.
I see this as the nn 3rd----> facilitating the ability for the inner security(4th ruler) to occur.
To quote Linda:
"As the NN ruler is situated in the 4th house, the information that is absorbed, collected and disseminated supplies him with a sense of internal security. As he is minimizing external dependencies on teachers/partners and groups, he is forced back in upon himself to examine his inner emotional dynamics. He learns to trust and know himself on an inner level, and he is then able to empathetically or sympathetically give to others the exact information or truth that they need."
And when I read Ari Moshe's interpretation, I see the opposite.
I see the individual first developes inner security which leads/allows him/her to begin to ask the questions, have the conversations, see the multitude of perspectives, discover the facts, etc....
To quote Ari Moshe:
"The key:
For evolution to occur, we must look at the ruler of the nn. The ruler of the nn indicates what needs to be developed in this life in order for the soul to access their voice, write their articles, speak out (3h nn)- leading to a self love and confidence that attracts equal and balanced relationships with souls that are also interested in free thinking.
4h ruler of nn indicates the need to emotionally process their experiences. To do this, they need to be discerning about who they let into their life/trust. There may have been a "hyper intellectual" orientation for this soul- as linda pointed out, with all those air and fire houses. In order for this soul to open up their mind, they have to feel safe enough to do so and get into their emotional body. This indicates boundaries and a personal sense of home."
Am I right in seeing these two example interpretations as demonstrating opposite flows between mode and facilitator?
Does the question now make sense?
Hi Bradley,
My quote: "As the NN ruler is situated in the 4th house, the information that is absorbed, collected and disseminated supplies him with a sense of internal security. As he is minimizing external dependencies on teachers/partners and groups, he is forced back in upon himself to examine his inner emotional dynamics. He learns to trust and know himself on an inner level, and he is then able to empathetically or sympathetically give to others the exact information or truth [edit: not truth at this stage] that they need."
What I was trying to get across was that the information is absorbed intuitively. This person would receive an emotional impulse to share the information, to communicate it to others in a restless kind of way, like a nervous reaction. He perceives the information would be helpful to others, and in a caring fashion would then communicate it.
I also thought that the information that reaches this person would invoke an emotional reaction which would trigger him to deliver it to others. His intuition would be triggered first by the information - then he would desire to speak it out to others. He would be moved by compassion, empathy and sympathy - and this facilitates the words. The meaning of the information is felt, not reasoned. I see it as a two way flow - the words - the emotions - back to the words - more emotions - more words, etc.
Rad said: "The individual is not disseminating the knowledge of Natural Law. That would not occur until much, much more evolution on the individuals part. The individual is disseminating free thinking and association from a philosophical point of view, of learning how to communicate in a variety of ways..."
How can one communicate in an emotional way? This is the question as I see it. ;D
Stephen, thanks again.
This post in particular has triggered so many questions, I'm deciding to ask them.
Quote from: stephen on Sep 22, 2009, 06:38 PM
Early 1st Individuated:
7th House Pluto with 9th House South Node, 11th House South Node Ruler
For an individual in the Early First Stage Individuated Evolutionary Condition of the Soul, how has the 7th House previous orientations/past desires (Pluto) occurred or been actualized within the last few lifetimes in the context of the 9th House Mode of Operation (South Node), with that operational mode facilitated/conditioned by an 11th House South Node Ruler?
The 7th House Pluto Soul has previously been learning the process of developing an objective awareness of its own self, and additionally attempting to understand this new-found sense of individuality through a social perspective. Is this the previous or current process? I thought it was the current.So, in a preliminary way, the Soul has been learning the evolutionary lesson of objectivity versus subjectivity, which includes the lessons of true listening, equality, and balance. The Soul would have been learning these lessons through its belief system (9th House South Node) as influenced by a need to break free from previous forms of self-definition (11th House South Node Ruler). Specifically, the past egocentric structure and self-image of the Soul would have been based upon the need for the person to understand them self in a philosophical or cosmological context (9th House) through these relationships (7th House). The philosophical context of this understanding would have been underscored by the need to remove, and thus liberate from, restrictive patterns of conditioning (11th House), whatever the source.
Additionally, in the early First Stage Individuated, the Soul is starting to rebel against the consensus state and against having its own self-identity be established by its association with the herd and its birth society. This has the effect of beginning the process of separating the individual from the herd through which their sense of security was previously provided. This rebellion (11th House) may possibly be reinforced through a belief system (9th House South Node) generated through the individual's association with like-minded groups (11th House South Node Ruler) whose emphasis is upon liberation from conditioning (11th House). The Soul will not only be rebelling (11th House) against consensus reality (1st Individuated), but also against any belief system (9th House) once imposed upon it at any time in its life.
Within this path of Soul growth (7th Pluto), a fundamental lesson is how to participate in relationships, and so this will be a driving force for the individual coming into this life. This is confusing, I thought we had established the fundamental lesson was the developement of self, and only then a balance in relationship can be acheived?That particular lesson will therefore require conscious involvement within a broad diversity of relationships (7th House), leading the Soul to have an exposure to many different value systems, intellectual systems, emotional patterns, and spiritual beliefs. Since the stated rebellion (11th House) takes the form of questioning the customs and beliefs of the consensus, this diversity of relationships (7th House) will come under an intense scrutiny (1st Individuated) while the Soul learns to listen objectively in order to determine how to relate to those others, in order to gain a true understanding of others (7th House). Again, I was under the impression that this soul's lifetime was about learning to listen to themself? Additionally, since it is a person's belief system which provides the method that they will use to actually interpret life, it is the developing belief system (9th House) which will determine those relationships which the individual initiates, and then chooses to continue.
These relationships will most likely be with others who are consumed by the same questions (1st Individuated) "¦ questions of a belief structure (9th House) based upon Natural Law (9th House), of liberation (11th House) from others' viewpoints, of self-identity (11th House) and its place within relationships (7th House), and of relationships (7th House) often containing the implicit imposition of a certain format of beliefs (9th House) upon the unique individuals (11th House) who participate in them.
This is confusing because Rad just clarified Linda's interpretation where she applied natural law and Rad made it clear just coming into individuated the person has not begun to grasp natural law
However, this drive to form relationships (7th House) must be balanced with that deep need for liberation (11th House South Node Ruler) which is conditioning the individual's belief systems (9th House). This point is confusing because I read it as saying the ruler of s.n. 11th is an over-riding power to the pluto position. I was under the impression that the natural level of security of relationship would mean the sn ruler 11 would suggest clinging to some form of group involvement.The individuating Soul is attempting to replace its discarded belief structure with their own self-discovered structure from which they can slowly learn to draw their actions. Again, I was under the impression at this evolutionary stage the individual isn't yet replacing this with their own belief structure-that they are in the process of discovering what this would even be outside the consensus This will be a structure designed to explain the Soul's connection to the "phenomenological nature of the universe," through which they can come to understand the Cosmos (9th House South Node) and their own unique self outside of society (11th House). This belief structure (9th House) will be facilitated by an intense need to break away from static self-definitions (11th House) as provided by both society and past relationships (1st Individuated).I can see this in a way, but it is still a bit confusing because it sounds as if the s.n. ruler 11 archetype is more of an influence than the pluto 7th. I was thinking it would be cyclic breaks and returns to relationships, not fueled by the belief structure, but be a lose of sense of self resonance at a deep and possibley unconscious level.
As this framework is being built, the individuating person questions everything, including their relationships, and so have been investigating this developing and personal sense of truth through a diversity of relationships (7th House). They will come to view their relationships through these metaphysical or philosophical principles (9th South Node), including their relationship to the Cosmos itself. Since they are moving through the early stages of the Individuated Soul State, these principles will not be based not upon religious parameters but upon the Soul's own developing spiritual beliefs (9th House), for at the Soul's core, providing the impetus for those beliefs, is a sense of rebellion from static pre-existing structures (11th House). Here it sounds like we went from just entering individuated to moving thru it and the corresponding conclusion confuses me because it is not consistent with what I thought we previously established. The Soul, in the process of discarding the limiting consensus (1st Individuated) belief structure (9th House, 11th House), will uncover the fact that there is much more to reality than the consensus viewpoint contains, and this will then further lead the individual onward in the search for a true inner identity and unique sense of self (11th House).This is confusing because it sounds like the past facilitator is now the current facilitator of the north node. Hasn't this already happened in the past? "this will then further lead" is confusing. It would make sense, in my limited understanding if it read "this, in the recent karmic past, led the individual....etc.
The Soul's unconscious emotional security structures are defined by the need to be in relationships in order to feel fulfilled and complete. However, rebellion (1st Individuated, 11th House) leads to the Soul beginning to think for itself, and thus additionally question its previous "˜assumptions' about the structure of its own reality and its own belief systems (9th House). It is therefore inevitable that the Soul will also begin to question its assumptions about its preconceived notions of relationship, and how it should act within itself, and in response to a relationship with others as it seeks to understand its own uniqueness (11th House).
However, if the Soul's rebellion and need to liberate (11th House, 1st Individuated) outweighs its attempt to realistically understand life through a metaphysical, philosophical and spiritual belief system (9th House), then this could lead to a distorted belief system. Are they really at a point of understanding life in this way yet? Or is it a phase of discovery and learning?The belief system (9th House) could become then arbitrarily opposed (11th House) to any form of structure just on the basis of liberating from all conditioning (11th House), and so not be aligned with natural law.
As they begin to succeed in their search, the individuating Soul will have a sense of "˜feeling different' deep within them self. However, this sense of "˜difference' can easily lead to a sense of alienation and insecurity (11th House). This could very well cause the Soul to isolate itself due to its perceived differences (11th House) and to no longer attempt to define itself through relationships with others (distortion: 7th House). Or, due to that security which is provided through its belief system (9th House), the Soul may not listen to any belief or idea at all (distortion: 11th House), especially those which conflict with its new belief structure (distortion: 9th South Node), and in so doing drive away the very relationships that it is fundamentally seeking (distortion: 7th House). This could have the unfortunate side-effect of enforcing the growing feeling of difference, leading to further self-isolation.
If the belief system becomes static and unchanging, and the Soul comes to believe itself to have a unique understanding of The Truth (distortion: 9th House), it may only recognize those beliefs which concur with its own, and thus only accept relationships with those others who already agree with the Soul's steadily "˜hardening' belief system. I am confused if this is possible at this evolutionary stage. I was under the impression this phenomenon came in middle individuated.This could lead to a further limitation of relationship types, which could itself very well lead to a signature of the 11th House archetype, which is Trauma. The 1st Individuated Soul needs to liberate from restrictive patterns, no matter what the source of those restrictions. Those patterns may be imposed by the consensus or through society, by partners or parents, or even from deep within "¦ from self-limiting behavior, past life memories (11th House), or early-life conditioning. The evolutionary necessity to evolve may very well activate traumatic events in the individual's life, removing from them areas of security in their own life which are causing stagnation and thus not allowing room for this essential liberation (11th House, 1st Individuated).
Another potential downfall within this particular archetype (Pluto 7th) is the possibility of an involvement in too many relationships (distortion: 7th House) and being subjected to too many differing viewpoints, which can lead to the opposite intent, which is that of a Soul losing touch with its own unique individuality (1st Individuated) and its own belief system (9th South Node). Again, I was thinking that it would result in confusion of beliefs and it has yet to establish its own belief system However, the drive to individuate (11th House combined with 1st Individuated), if it is strong enough, can provide a strong core of liberation (11th House South Node Ruler) from which to gain the strength to maintain this personal belief system (9th House South Node).
This inner core of rebellion (11th House) could also have the positive side-effect of diminishing a compulsive dependence on the opinions and advice of others (distortion: 7th House), and may even remove the possibility of the Soul's substitution of the understandings and beliefs (9th House) of others, concerning their own self and life-purpose, as its own. The Soul could then retain the ability to relate to itself as well as relate to others, and thereby a potential feeling of being uncomfortable while being alone will not arise (distortion: 7th House).
Also, since the old comforts of the consensus reality can still seem "˜attractive' (but will no longer truly satisfy the Soul), the Soul may mimic the outward forms of the consensus reality (distortion: 11th House) in an attempt at appearing "˜normal.' Even though this is only a surface compensation, it can have the unwanted side-effect of attracting exactly the consensus-level relationships (7th House) from which the Soul is trying to distance itself (1st Individuated).
Additionally, this form of compensation can produce a very intense feeling of "˜living a lie', even while the Soul is trying to uncover the truth, and this can itself lead to a sense of being perpetually misunderstood (distortion: 7th House). Also, as the Soul is attempting to liberate through rebellion (11th House) while at the same time being drawn into compensatory behavior (early 1st Individuated; distortion: 11th House), the tension generated through these opposite "˜pulls' can themselves generate energy within the Soul. If this energy is not allowed to "˜expand' (7th 9th 11th "˜yang' Houses) and thus become harnessed naturally (9th House) towards the Soul's need to evolve (1st Individuated) and to liberate (11th House), then that energy may move inward and cause or enforce trauma through detachment from the individual's own emotions (distortion: 11th House).This is confusing to me because it sounds like the s.n. ruler is a security need with equal gravitation as the pluto position itself. It is confusing to see it's role as facilitator of the south node here, for me.
This may then lead to emotional detachment from others, within relationships and from society in general. However, this social detachment (distortion: 11th House), exacerbated from the tension generated through "˜living a lie' even while seeking the truth, can itself accelerate the developing search for truth and a belief system based upon natural law (9th House). This "˜truth' can no longer be exclusive as embedded within the truth of the consensus (1st Individuated), but will instead be inclusive as reflective of the truth of the various peoples on the entire planet.
If the Soul can retain its evolutionary impulse and direction in its search for truth (1st Individuated) through a diversity of relationships (7th House) in a philosophical and metaphysical way (9th House) while remaining true to its own unique essence (11th House) Again, confusing because it sounds like the s.n. ruler here is acting like the p.p.p. It is hard to see how it facilitated the incoming life philosophy in this context., and if the Soul is able to navigate through these potential distortions/downfalls, then an understanding (9th House) of the unique parameters of the Soul's own innate individuality (11th House) will eventually be provided by understanding itself (1st Individuated) through the changing lenses of these very relationships (7th House). This part is confusing because it sounds like the past karmic principles and signature are being used to explain the current path to evolutionThis will then allow the individual to begin to learn to truly hear others' representation of reality (9th House) from a place of security in self-knowledge and self-identity (11th House), and this acceptance of differing points of view will lead to a deeper understanding of the inherent relativity of all human nature, which will possibly lead to the Soul attempting to unite that "˜newly defined' self with others (7th House) and with the Cosmos (9th House).
Thus, the lessons of a Pluto Seventh House Soul will eventually lead to the Soul's ability to provide for others' needs from the point of view of those other's own reality, which will cause the Soul to develop an equal participation through true balance in many differing types of relationships (7th House), with the Soul learning along the way to be neither subservient nor dominant. Additionally, if the Soul is able to move past its self-limiting belief structure (9th House), discarding generalizations and the sense of having the only "˜handle on the Truth' (distortion: 9th House), and additionally retaining self-awareness and self-identity through a continuous attempt to liberate from conditioning (11th House), then they may begin to view the Cosmos as it actually is, through Natural Law (9th House) which is independent of any particular belief system.
As stated within Deva Green's book (p.40), "Pluto, the South Node, and its planetary ruler is termed the trinity of the past because these symbols specifically describe the core, bottom-line dynamics that have been operative in the Soul's past, and will be the natural point of gravitation for the Soul coming into this life relative to emotional security. We can now understand the current operative dynamics of the Soul in the present moment in time."
As per that "˜past alignment' within the Evolutionary Axis (Pluto/Pluto Polarity Point, Moon's Nodes and Nodal Rulers), the many probable downfalls/shortcomings/distortions will possibly be lessened in an individual in the 1st Individuated Stage as reinforced through the potential for "˜liberation from conditioning' inherent within the 11th House archetype, in its position as facilitator of the 9th House Mode of Operation of the Soul's previous desires, patterns and orientations (7th Pluto).
Stephen, I enjoy your regular quotes. Here's one from Pluto 1:chapter on 11/aquarius:
"In whatever condition we find the 11th house pluto individuals, all have had the evolutionary need to develop objectivity and detachment, to sever attachments that are preventing further growth, and to form group bondings with like minded souls."
The reason I chose this quote was because you have referenced the s.n. 11th ruler most often for it's connection to liberation, yet with a pluto 7th one may think the group bondings would be highlighted as the activity that facilitated the learning in the past.
However, to change these existing patterns and to rise above the potential for these distortions, with the effect of altering the pre-existing dynamics and so continue the Soul's evolution, will involve moving in the direction of the Pluto Polarity Point (1st House), which reflects those necessary evolutionary requirements which this Soul needs to develop.
Anyway, these were all the questions that were popping in my head.
I'm very thankful for your post and respond simply with the intent to get to the heart of understanding this body of knowledge.
Many thanks and blessings,
Bradley
This is great, thanks Linda
Ari,
Good work. Within the symbols, so far, we can not know if the individual has created consensus parents or not though. However, with the Pluto in the 7th, it's polarity point in the 1st, a natural Aries House, and the location of the planetary ruler of the N.Node in the 4th, which then creates a defacto square to the natal Pluto, it's polarity point, and given that the 4th House planetary ruler of the N.Node in the 3rd which is then, defacto, inconjunct the planetary ruler of the S.Node in the 11th, it's a good bet, so far, that the individual will draw those consensus kind of parents that then generates a crisis with them as the individual attempts to individuate itself. In turn this actualizes one of the intentions of the planetary ruler in the 4th: to create a state of internalize security as the individual is evolving into a brand new way of experiencing and seeing itself as an individual: the evolving self image of the Soul itself as manifested in the current life ego.
Rad
Hi Stephan,
Once again your analysis is exceptional as it embraces the various possibilities of how that natural trinity of Pluto, the S.Node, and the location of it's planetary ruler relative to the evolutionary state could manifest. Exceptional work.
Rad
Quote from: Bradley J on Sep 22, 2009, 11:04 PM
Stephen, thanks again.
This post in particular has triggered so many questions, I'm deciding to ask them.
:-:-:-:-:-:-:
Stephen, I enjoy your regular quotes. Here's one from Pluto 1:chapter on 11/aquarius:
"In whatever condition we find the 11th house pluto individuals, all have had the evolutionary need to develop objectivity and detachment, to sever attachments that are preventing further growth, and to form group bondings with like minded souls."
The reason I chose this quote was because you have referenced the s.n. 11th ruler most often for it's connection to liberation, yet with a pluto 7th one may think the group bondings would be highlighted as the activity that facilitated the learning in the past.
Anyway, these were all the questions that were popping in my head.
I'm very thankful for your post and respond simply with the intent to get to the heart of understanding this body of knowledge.
Many thanks and blessings,
Bradley
Thanks Bradley for the input, and for the quote!
I will review my post in the light of that information, and that perspective.
I appreciate the time that you spent reading through that assignment and posting your responses.
Blessings to You Bradley,
Stephen
Quote from: Rad on Sep 24, 2009, 07:35 AM
My hands together in continuing thanks for the mentoring, Rad!
May You Be Blessed,
Stephen
Hi Stephen,
Ihaven't much time lately but now browsing through this topic it is really THRILLING to see how marvelous is your progress in EA!! It is so wonderful to see/witness the soulgrowth as someone like you (as well as many others on this MB) absorbing metamorphosing EA into their being...
God/ess Bless and wanted to say: GOOD ON YA MATE!! ;D I'm really happy for you!
Love and blessings,
Lia
Stephen,
Thanks for considering such indepth feedback. It is a blessing for any input you may have the time and energy to share. It is not an expectation that all questions could really be answered here. And the understanding will come at another point on the journey, if not here.
Rad and all,
Here's another effort after re-reading Pluto chapter 4th house and reflection and conversation. This effort is focused painting the bigger picture of this karmic signature, with a focus on the ruler of the north node and it's known meaning in this "picture".
The soul's transition in this lifetime from recently leaving consensus reality creates natural tensions. Having to still live in this "herd state" due to deep seated security issues, there has been a strong pull into relationships(pluto-7) that the soul chose for the purpose of continuing the beginning of learning larger perspectives of reality(s.n.-9).
With a 7th house pluto, s.n. 9th, and ruler of in 11th, we know this person has recently had and will continue to have cycles of relationship: With sn ruler-11th and begin in early individuated, this person will simultaneously experience a strong pull to be/stay in relationships(pluto-7) and desires to move on when the learning is complete(sn 9th/ruler 11th)
If this knowing to "move on" manifests in a subconscious way and it is a desire inside self, not the other, then the ego will have to go thru much self questioning and dialogue to resolve separating desires that break the apparent harmony of their relationship(s).
As Rad has pointed out, the ruler of n.n., by being in the 4th, creates a natural waning square to the 7th house pluto.
By this, we can know that there is challenge in developing his/her own emotional security. A waning square is "crisis is consciousness/resolution" of securing own emotional needs while in relationship( planet in 4th square pluto 7th).
We know as early individuated, this person isn't secure in knowing exactly what she/he believes. What will be allowing, in this lifetime, him/her the capacity to think and examine, to question everything, and to have the real balanced "˜growth encouraging' relationship dialogues is the development of inner emotional security. Naturally, with pluto in 7th, there is a pull to have relationships fulfill security need. Relationship has in the past and will again in this life be the place where she/he experiences the disappointment of not having their emotional needs met by whoever they are in relationship to/with. This experience is tied to the previously mentioned "cycles of relationship" and we see the patterns of being thrown back (from relationship) onto oneself leading potentially to the development of their own inner security on deep emotional levels. They will then be coming into their own voice more(nn 3rd/ppp 1st) with the foundation of this inner emotional security.(ruler n.n. 4th)
Speaking their own voice in a healthy balance with listening to others experiences and truths will be laying the foundation of evolutionary stages coming in future reincarnations. By beginning this journey this soul is at a point of realizing which parts of what resonate with them and why. While they may not reach an exact conclusive statement/vision of life/reality in this life, we will know that signs of this healthy balance will be evidence of this lifetime completing karmic evolutionary growth that will be tied to future incarnations knowing of their place in the world/community. Seeing the sn ruler in 11 in light of the rest of signature, can we speculate that they may not experience a sense of community belonging until reaching middle individuated?
With the ruler of the n.n. in 4th forming a natural waning square to pluto, the need to develop his/her own inner emotional security is highlighted-as discussed earlier.
The above mentioned evolving journey and weather or not this person in question progresses on it or not is hinged on the resolution of the karmic relationship experiences of the past. The specific planet and sign of this ruler and exact degree relationship to pluto will fill in the details as to what karmic relive relationship experiences are/have/will play out this lifetime while they resolve the inner conflict due to abandonment that challenges their inner emotional security. When these relationship "traumas" are released, we will see the movement into this foundational security that will allow the capacity of the n.n.in 3rd to express itself in the life.
Again, hinging on the rest of the chart, we'd most likely be looking to the first saturn cycle for the relationship stories that reveal if these past karmic relationship challenges are resolved yet.-or which aspects are and where is work still needed by the individual.
Thanks again for taking time to read and give feedback,
Bradley J
Hi Bradley,
QuoteSeeing the sn ruler in 11 in light of the rest of signature, can we speculate that they may not experience a sense of community belonging until reaching middle individuated?
No, this generally is not so. What it comes down to are groups or communities of people who are also free thinking in nature, speculative, pondering, considering all possibilities versus other groups or communities that are still authoritarian based, and are certain of their 'alternative' view of reality as contrasted and compared with the existing consensus beliefs of the society of birth.
Of course the authoritarian ones will reflect the consensus from which this Soul is evolving away from: even the 'alternative' groups can have this as their structure which is typically lead or headed by some individual who presents themselves as all knowing, follow me, and all that crap. And that type typically attracts others who need to follow because they feel secure in so doing. If the person in our example involves themselves with this type of group of community for awhile, then attempts to break free, such a 'leader' and his 'followers' will then typically 'project'...11th House...all kinds of judgments and accusations upon the individual which impacts on that planetary ruler of the N.Node being in the 4th: the individuals own self image, their sense of personal identity, they sense of belonging somewhere....home, 4th house..which then of course impacts on what is the basis of their 'security'. These sorts of projections of course can induce a real 'crisis' for the individual: the 11th house is naturally inconjunct the 4th. The intent of such crisis of course is the facilitate the Soul's intent: to think for themselves, to learn how to ask and answer their own questions, and with whom to be in any kind of relationship.
Conversely, as the evolutionary process unfolds even at this early stage of individuation, the individual will progressively orientate to the free thinking types of groups that are experimental in nature. Such groups will be based on a core sense of equality in that the journey of each one of them will be just like the evolutionary journey of the individual them self: the existential journey/ search for the 'truth'. In this way the sense of community will be with others who are themselves MIRRORS of the individuals own journey: they will be basically at the same point in evolution in that they will also be learning how to ask and answer their own questions, and will be learning how to develop a core sense of personal/Soul identity that is independent of the consensus reality of the society of birth. In this way they also, like the individual, is learning to stand on their own two feet all by themselves.
The evolving attitude of the individual will be: if I must be a group of one, then so be it.
Rad
Quote from: Lia on Sep 25, 2009, 08:16 AM
Hi Stephen,
Ihaven't much time lately but now browsing through this topic it is really THRILLING to see how marvelous is your progress in EA!! It is so wonderful to see/witness the soulgrowth as someone like you (as well as many others on this MB) absorbing metamorphosing EA into their being...
God/ess Bless and wanted to say: GOOD ON YA MATE!! ;D I'm really happy for you!
Love and blessings,
Lia
Hiya Lia! and welcome back to the board!
Thank you very much for your very kind comments.
I have been learning an enormous amount (and really enjoying the study), and this thread which Rad is running is really helpful in terms of providing a clear direction for the study, as well as timely feedback.
I was telling my wife recently that I wish I had a decrease, rather than an increase, in my other commitments at this time, since I now have to sorta 'sneak' time to study, and post the assignments. (New initiatives at work, winter preparations at the home, 7 year old son starting 1st grade, yada yada, etc..)
As you noticed, everyone is working really hard on learning/absorbing the Paradigm, and it is great to have that feedback from a seasoned EA Practitioner such as yourself.
I truly hope everything is going great with you, and May the God'dess smile up at You from the Depths of Your Heart!
Blessings,
Stephen
Rad
You've pointed out:
"These sorts of projections of course can induce a real 'crisis' for the individual: the 11th house is naturally inconjunct the 4th. The intent of such crisis of course is the facilitate the Soul's intent: to think for themselves, to learn how to ask and answer their own questions, and with whom to be in any kind of relationship."
In light of the 4th house ruler square pluto and inconjunct both the south node and ruler of south node, it would seem that this is a signature where the impact of the 'crisis' would be greater(relative to just a inconjunct of node rulers), and hence we can know that there would be both more emphasis and challenge in the actualization,activation of the ruler of the north node due to the past karmic crisis that are needing resolution. Is this correct to come to such a conclusion?
Hi Bradley,
Yes ..........very astute of you.
Rad
Early 1st Individuated:
1st House Pluto Polarity Point with 3rd House North Node, 4th House North Node Ruler
For an individual in the Early First Stage Individuated Evolutionary Condition of the Soul, how will the 1st House Evolutionary Intentions (Pluto Polarity Point of the 7th House) manifest or be actualized relative to the 3rd House Mode of Operation (North Node), with that operational mode facilitated/conditioned by a 4th House North Node Ruler?
The core evolutionary intent for a Soul in the current life is reflected in the Pluto Polarity Point, which for a Seventh House Pluto individual is to be found within the First House. Thus, the current evolutionary intent is for the Soul to learn how to choose its own life directions without dependence upon opinions or consent of others, and thus meet its own needs without reliance upon others (1st House polarity). The Soul is questioning (1st Individuated) everything, and so will be gathering as much information as possible (3rd House North Node) in an emotional and subjective context (4th House) in order to manifest its need to discover itself and provide a new direction for itself (1st House) in terms of its next evolutionary advance (polarity point). In other words, the newly developing egocentric structure of the Soul will come to be based upon its ability to collect pertinent facts (3rd House) which describe those elements that influenced the self-image (4th House), and to correctly interpret that data (3rd House), which will help lead towards a new life path of independence (1st House polarity).
Since the 4th House (Ruler of the North Node) represents the current egocentric structure, the individual will be emotionally (4th House) forming a personal relationship (7th House) to the information collected (3rd House North Node) in their quest (1st Individuated) to provide a new life direction (1st House Polarity; Cardinal 1st 4th Houses) without the constraints placed upon them either by society (Consensus Stage) or through their relationships (7th House).
Even as the Soul is rebelling against a consensus-defined society (1st Individuated), it still seeks to find a place where it will fit in. However, this developing independence does not imply the individual becoming a loner, or living without a close relationship, but instead indicates that they should additionally learn (3rd House) how to be alone and make their own decisions in order to more fully develop their own unique individuality (1st House polarity). As the Soul is embarking upon that new evolutionary cycle (1st Cardinal) toward independence (1st House), the energy of initiation is supportively reinforced through another new cycle (4th Cardinal) also beginning, a cycle of seeking emotional security internally from within (4th House), instead of externally through relationships (7th House).
With the 4th House in square to both 1st House and 7th House (T-Square), the individual will need to seek to become aware of the personal identity (1st House) of their developing egocentric structure (4th House North Node Ruler) outside of relationships (7th House). To make use of a common Zen Koan, a good question (3rd House) for this individual to meditate upon might be, "What was my original face [identity] before my parents were born?"
Although this is an outward directed energy signature (1st 4th Cardinal), the Soul will still seek information (3rd House) from introspection through questioning (1st Individuated) its previous emotional needs (4th House) and behavior patterns (Pluto), in an attempt to establish new patterns (polarity point). In its path toward self-aware (1st Individuated) independence (1st Polarity), the Soul will need to learn (3rd House) either new patterns of emotional security (4th House) or new ways of handling the existing patterns (polarity point).
This very process of introspection followed by self-analysis followed by integration will help the individual to progressively learn, first, to understand them self as an emotional and independent being, second, to be aware of when they are emotionally or energetically out of control, and third, to then begin to stop their own cycle and not let external "˜triggers' activate latent responses. Intellectual Understanding (3rd House) supported by Emotional Awareness (4th House) facilitating Personal Recognition and Responsibility (1st House).
With time required for this "˜Soul searching', this individual will need to balance this necessity for time alone (1st House) with the need for time spent with others (7th House). However, these others will need to be of a "˜like-minded-group' (1st Individuated; 11th House) also seeking independence (1st House), or the Soul may very well choose to belong to no group at all. As a side-effect, the acceptance into a new group may help these Souls to leave behind their compensatory behavior (distortion: 1st Individuated) and so begin to discard the trappings of the previous consensus behavior of their earlier life "¦ possessions, manner of living, dress, and entertainment.
However, this quest requires freedom (1st House) and a certain independence (1st Individuated), especially freedom from the emotional attachments (distortion: 4th House) which can occur within co-dependent relationships (distortion: 7th House). However, due to the pursuit of this need for freedom (1st House), the Soul may feel vulnerable and insecure (distortion: 4th House), further leading to a desire for compensation (distortion: 1st Individuated). This dual need for freedom balanced against the desire for past security will create tension within the developing Soul, possibly leading into a cycle of further analysis.
Within their personal intimate relationships, the individual will come to not only learn (3rd House) to allow their partner's own need to initiate decisions (1st House), but will also learn to be aware (3rd House) of developing emotional entanglements (distortion: 3rd House) which will undermine creatively actualizing their independence (1st House) and growing self-identity (1st Individuated). This will require the Soul to learn to conduct relationships (7th House) through applying new, and not previously patterned, methods (polarity point).
As an example, a new way of relating might require that the individual learn to support their partner's independence even while they are expecting their partner to learn to support their own emotional (4th House) independence (1st House, 1st Individuated). This type of voluntary participation (1st polarity) within the relationship (7th House) in a mutual emotionally (4th House) independent way (1st House) will thus encourage inter-pendence and not co-dependence within both of the partners, thus helping them both to evolve spiritually (1st Individuated).
As the Soul continues to discard compensatory behavior (1st Individuated), and reevaluates its individuality in respect to relationship (7th House), the Soul will also see the value in continuing to evaluate (3rd House) previous friendships and relationships which limit their freedom in self-discovery (1st House). The Soul needs to be free enough (1st House) to be available both for those "˜awakening' experiences which come of their own, and those experiences which must be sought out and discovered for one's self "¦ experiences which will lead to further growth of their developing self-identity (1st Individuated). Additionally, as the Soul seeks this new path (Cardinal Houses) of self-identity (1st House), a possibly strong side-effect will be the "˜triggering' of unconscious (11th House) emotional memory associations (4th House), as events similar to childhood (4th House) and past-life (11th House) situations are awoken, activated and then experienced. These events will have a destabilizing emotional effect (distortion: 4th House), again reinforcing the need for the Soul to seek inward (1st Individuated) and find emotional security (4th House) internally and not externally (distortion: 7th House).
However, this need/desire for internal security manifestation must be sought by the individual in a balanced way, and not lead to complete negation of relationship (distortion: 7th House). The Soul must understand that this search (1st Individuated) will be facilitated through seeking those who are going through, or have already gone through, this very process of self-discovery (1st House), and additionally those who already live through this knowledge (3rd House) of emotional inner security (4th House). Security (4th House) can of course be found within relationship, but the 4th House drive is to locate that sense of security within one's own self.
So, as the Soul seeks/needs/desires those relationships in which they them self can be free while simultaneously providing freedom for their partner, this then rules out relationships which are co-dependant. Therefore, succumbing to a powerful personality (7th House distortion) who claims to have the truth (9th South Node) will then not be a potential downfall for an individual seeking (1st Individuated) the knowledge (3rd House) of independence (1st House) and emotional security (4th House) through acceptance of the polarity point's evolutionary lessons.
The initial individuating sense of "˜feeling different' which once generated compensatory behavior (7th House distortion) will develop into the knowledge (3rd House) that they actually are different (1st House), and this difference is not only acceptable, but is actually the way that the Cosmos functions (Natural Law: 9th South Node). The information that the Soul has collected (3rd House North Node) will enable this understanding, broadening the Soul's understanding of itself as a single being (1st House) and as a being able to function in relation to others (7th House), and in relation to the Natural Laws of the Cosmos itself (9th House).
The individual will then learn within relationships (7th House) to give to the other so the others' needs can be met, and, when a true balance in the relationship is achieved, the partner will also give freely back to the individual so that their own needs can thus be met as well, with neither partner succumbing to the trap of requiring their own emotional security needs to be met by the other (distortion: 4th House). In this way, the Soul will actually be sharing emotional self-empowering (4th House) information and so teaching (3rd North Node) the truth (9th House) through its own example of self-discovery (1st Individuated) to those others (7th House) who also desire to experience and facilitate the evolution of their own Soul.
Additionally, the individual's understanding (3rd House) of their own inner and personal (1st House) emotional nature (4th House) can lead towards the possible development of emotional empathy (4th House) for others, and would then allow the individual to possibly help others by teaching (3rd House) them to then understand their own emotional (4th House) and personal (1st House) inner (1st Individuated) natures.
A new understanding is mandated by this new cycle of life direction (1st 4th Cardinal Houses), and this understanding will be built through the accumulation of facts, and subsequent collation of this information (3rd North Node), through a wide-ranging process, including through reading, through self-discovery/self-enhancement workshops and conferences, and through studying the cultures, spiritual beliefs and history of the world (1st Individuated). This information (3rd North Node) could possibly even be gathered through an analysis of their feelings (4th North Node Ruler) as events occur to them, and their emotions (4th House) as they interact with others within relationships (7th House).
If financially possible, as this new cycle of becoming (1st House) gathers momentum, the individual may very well take the step of leaving their current job for one which more accurately reflects that growing sense of self-identity (1st Individuated), or may just do whatever work pays the bills in this interim period of intense self-discovery. However, if the individual can direct their energy towards manifesting the "˜right career' for them self, then the work will itself allow time for reviewing the information previously collected (3rd House), and for reflecting upon the causes (origins) of their feelings. This new self-knowledge (1st Individuated, 3rd House) will strengthen the sense of internal security (4th House) which this Soul needs as it becomes more and more free (1st House) from emotional attachments (distortion: 4th House) and interpersonal entanglements (distortion: 7th House).
This need to collect information (3rd House), about the parameters of their emotional security (4th House) needs within their developing self (1st House), and the actual reality (1st Individuated) of the Cosmos (9th House), will allow the Soul to either recover from, or avoid completely, the 9th House (South Node) distortion of not listening to any belief or idea which conflicts with its own past belief structure (consensus). Also, the possibility that the Soul will come to believe itself to have a unique understanding of The Truth (distortion: 9th South Node), leading to the belief system becoming static and unchanging, will be greatly diminished both through the intense study (3rd House) of the world's cultures, spiritual beliefs and history, and also through its choice of relationships (7th House) combined with the ensuing dialogues (3rd House) concerning philosophical and metaphysical truth (9th House) and cosmological discussions concerning the self-directed choice of a life path (1st House, 1st Individuated).
This itself will then lead to the removal of the Soul's previous security need (4th House) to only accept relationships (7th House) with those people who hold beliefs (9th House) which concur with its own already "˜hardening' belief system, and those who can provide a sense of security from outside the individual (distortion: 4th House). The individual's belief system itself will begin to expand into an understanding, based on actual facts (3rd House), of the Natural Law (9th House) through which the Cosmos functions, outside of any man-made belief systems, dogmatic assertions or unquestioned assumptions and convictions (distortion: 9th House). The developing (1st Individuated) individual will experience the freedom (1st House) to intellectually (3rd House) choose their own belief structure (9th House), without feeling (4th House) the need to rebel simply for the sake of rebellion (distortion: 11th House) against the belief systems of others (7th House). Additionally, they will learn to choose their relationships (7th House) from a place of understanding their own inner self (1st House) and their current place (1st Individuated) within the Cosmos (9th House), without feeling the need to seek external sources of security (distortion: 4th House).
In this quest (1st Individuated), the Soul will be initiating discussions (3rd House) with others (7th House) in an attempt to uncover and understand the truth (9th House) about itself, others and the Cosmos. The Soul will feel the need to test its understanding (3rd House) of its newly changing life-direction (1st House) and its developing self-identity (1st Individuated) both within these discussions and through its relationships (7th House) with others. Additionally, the individual will perhaps learn the process of self-discussion or self-discovery, wherein they hold dialogues with themself. In light of that possibility, a good topic of self-questioning for this individual might be, "What constitutes my own sense of security (4th House), and how can I learn (3rd House) to fulfill those needs myself, where possible?"
The information collected in this intellectual discovery (3rd House) will continue the process of the expansion of their consciousness by promoting greater self-awareness (1st House), emotional awareness (4th House), and a self-selected belief system (9th House), eventually leading toward an innate understanding (3rd House) of the value of an individual's freedom (1st House) to discover a sense of personal inner security (4th House), and the meaning of the world (9th House), for themselves.
Thus, as these lessons are learned (3rd House), these individuals will slowly come to be very giving people, able to easily identify the relationship (7th House) and emotional security (4th House) needs of the other within the context of the others' own realities, and thus provide an understanding (3rd House) to those others of their own needs, in order to help them grow and evolve. Thus, by their own example (1st House), and through discussion/counseling (3rd House) and emotional encouragement (4th House), they can help others learn responsibility for their own actions (1st House), their own belief system (9th House), their own intellectual framework (3rd House) of the Cosmos (9th House), and their own emotional security (4th House). They will perhaps even be able to teach the value of an "˜rebellious awareness' (11th House, 3rd House), so that the individual can learn through introspection to become aware of, and thus to possibly avoid, the distortions inherent in seeking a belief system (hardening, judgmental exclusion), providing personal emotional security (emotional blocks and dependencies), and seeking to define one's own sense of self (succumbing to the certainty of others, stopping short of the goal in apparent but false completion).
This new direction will itself help the Soul to not fall prey to another possible distortion: losing touch with its own unique individuality and developing personal belief system through an involvement in too many relationships and thus being subjected to too many differing viewpoints. Also, the individual must learn personal responsibility along with personal freedom (1st House), which will help lessen the desire to blame others (distortion: 4th House) for their own life conditions.
Finally, the Soul needs to be vigilant that it does not begin to collect information simply for the sake of collecting information (distortion; 3rd North Node), leaving the quickly-purchased books unread, or the new workshop techniques unpracticed, or the insights garnered from intense discussions left unheeded. Also, an extreme amount of sheer data, without a clear connecting structure, can lead to a lack of integration (distortion: 11th House) of that information (3rd House), which can lead to dissipation, not enhancement, of the individual's mental capacities and thus possibly even slow down the desired growth of self-awareness.
If the Soul can develop a desire/process to constantly link this multitude of facts and sheer data (3rd House) collection back to a point of stability (South Node), which is the knowledge of the actual reality of the Cosmos (9th House), then the parameters of Natural Law can itself provide a framework. This could become a foundation upon which to interpret this information, which can then lead to a sense of stability/security (4th House) within the Soul as it begins to understand its own relationship to itself, and thus within the Cosmos. These individuals will be able to consciously (3rd House) integrate these evolutionary lessons (polarity) about the development of their own identity (1st House, 1st Individuated) through their emotional body (4th House) as well as through their intellectual (3rd House) and belief (9th House) systems.
Stephan,
QuoteThe core evolutionary intent for a Soul in the current life is reflected in the Pluto Polarity Point, which for a Seventh House Pluto individual is to be found within the First House. Thus, the current evolutionary intent is for the Soul to learn how to choose its own life directions without dependence upon opinions or consent of others, and thus meet its own needs without reliance upon others (1st House polarity). The Soul is questioning (1st Individuated) everything, and so will be gathering as much information as possible (3rd House North Node) in an emotional and subjective context (4th House) in order to manifest its need to discover itself and provide a new direction for itself (1st House) in terms of its next evolutionary advance (polarity point). In other words, the newly developing egocentric structure of the Soul will come to be based upon its ability to collect pertinent facts (3rd House) which describe those elements that influenced the self-image (4th House), and to correctly interpret that data (3rd House), which will help lead towards a new life path of independence (1st House polarity).
******************************************************************************
The interpretation of all the new information, data, is the 9th House S.Node**************************************************************************
QuoteIf the Soul can develop a desire/process to constantly link this multitude of facts and sheer data (3rd House) collection back to a point of stability (South Node), which is the knowledge of the actual reality of the Cosmos (9th House), then the parameters of Natural Law can itself provide a framework. This could become a foundation upon which to interpret this information, which can then lead to a sense of stability/security (4th House) within the Soul as it begins to understand its own relationship to itself, and thus within the Cosmos. These individuals will be able to consciously (3rd House) integrate these evolutionary lessons (polarity) about the development of their own identity (1st House, 1st Individuated) through their emotional body (4th House) as well as through their intellectual (3rd House) and belief (9th House) systems.
*************************************************************************
Again, Stephen, at this point of evolution the understanding of Natural Laws is not going to happen. Free form questioning and thinking yes as the individual checks out and experiments with a diversity of thought forms, ideas, and various beliefs from afar. It is all in a state of discovery versus coming to actual formulations on the structure of anything linked with the Cosmos. ***************************************************************************
Excellent work
Rad
Hi Ari, Stephen, Bradley, Linda, and others..........
So you guys have been doing really good work on our practice chart. So what I would propose now is to keep using this same chart but now shift the nodes to other houses, and then, later different locations for those planetary rulers. The other option of course is to simply start with a whole new chart altogether. So you guys let me know what you want to do.
High fives to all of you.
Rad
Hi Rad,
I'm happy to do any combination you wish.
Has anyone actually worked out how many combinations there are? It must be thousands.
Thanks,
Linda
Thanks rad! ;D
im down to shift the nodes, maybe even a couple more times- that would be really grounding for me.
After that, can we practice shifting the evolutionary state while keeping the chart the same?
Quote from: Rad on Sep 30, 2009, 01:10 PM
Stephan,
The interpretation of all the new information, data, is the 9th House S.Node
Again, Stephen, at this point of evolution the understanding of Natural Laws is not going to happen. Free form questioning and thinking yes as the individual checks out and experiments with a diversity of thought forms, ideas, and various beliefs from afar. It is all in a state of discovery versus coming to actual formulations on the structure of anything linked with the Cosmos.
Rad,
Thanks for reviewing that posting, and for the helpful direction.
Blessings,
Stephen
Quote from: Rad on Sep 30, 2009, 01:16 PM
So you guys let me know what you want to do.
Rad,
Whatever you think is the best direction. Maybe the next time we do start a new chart we could try the posts by past, present and future, as an example:
Egocentric Structure of the Past:
1 - Pluto by House
2 - South Node by House
3 - South Node Ruler by House
Current Ego:
4 - Moon by House
Evolutionary Intention (Future):
5 - Polarity Point by House
6 - North Node by House
7 - North Node Ruler by House
The ideas to move the Nodes, and move through the Evolutionary Stages are great, and maybe try to place Pluto by House (
and Sign) in order to learn actual planetary chart placements and synthesizing the archetypes...
Thanks for investing your time in our education, Rad.
God'dess Bless,
Stephen
Hello All,
Thanks for keeping it going! My time and energy to write has been limited but I have been reading along and continue to learn with you all. I hope to jump in again as soon as I catch my breath. ;)
This study has been amazing and insightful thanks to everyone in EA.
Blessings,
Michelle
Hi group,
Ok, right now let's stay with our 7th House Pluto, same evolutionary state, and now shift the S.Node to the 6th House, with it's planetary ruler in the 10th, and the N.Node to the 12th, with it's planetary ruler in the 2nd.
Let's have a go at it !
Rad
New to 1st stage individuated
7th house pluto
sn in 6th, ruler in 10th
nn in 12th, ruler in second
Just knowing that this soul is new to first stage individuated, it is inherant that the soul is seeking to orient itself to living differently. feeling alienated, estranged and moving more and more towards libaration are universal truths for a soul in this state.
The 7th house Pluto indicates that the soul has been evolving through experiences revolving around intimacy. learning how to share, give and receive, establishing a penetrating awareness of how to meet it's needs and other's needs in relationship. How and to who and when to creeate what kinds of relationships. All these issues have been super important for this soul. At the deepest level of security, there is a need to be loved, accepted, and approved of by other people. Within that need there is a natural acuity towards other ppl's needs, as the soul has learned over many life times to attune itself to what other people want. This soul will natraully want to give to others what it itself wants the most- acceptance. This is true for all 7th house Pluto souls.
This soul has evolved through relationships via a sense of "purpose". Having something to do has been very important for this soul, otherwise there has been a tendency to feel inadequate and not worthy of acceptance. This is all connected to the 6th house sn. The ruler in the 10th house implies that this work was based in what is socially acceptable, right and lawful. The 10th house is all about the rules of the current culture and society that the soul lives in. In the past, this soul has beeen a social servant- possibly themselves holding positions of power and responsibility- in which they were required to act and live in accordance to particular standards of conduct. This position was one in which the soul focused it's energy towards many areas of work- all focused on managing various tasks, and gaining gradual mastery over many areas of it's work feild.
Within these symbols, it is very clear how dependent this soul has been on being useful and beingn socialy accepted. This 7th house pluto orientation has manifested strongly through a need to be good at what they do. However recently, the consensus values (10th house) that have dictated the kind of work/chores/tasks that this soul has taken on (6th house) have begun to loose thiere meaning. This soul feels alienated (first stage individuated) from these values and is experiencing a growing feeling of burden, obligation, and boredom in the work that it does (6th house sn). It wants to liberate itself from the meaningless confines of it's obligations- but everyone around this soul genearlly has the same expectations and ideas as to how this soul is meant to manifest itself in society (10th house).
An example of how this may have manifested- the soul may have inherited (10th house) a family business- coming from a lineage of food distributers. Now this soul owns thier succesful father's food distribution company and is faced with taking care of the business. It may be lucrative, but there's just so much to manage, and the values of the whole company have no meaning to this soul. To let go of it all (12th house nn) risks rejection (7th house pluto) from the society/ elders in the family. They will be judged as lazy, irresponsible, unreliable etc.
Thing is, this soul is quite likely to feel inwardly a mess- but strive hard to make everything look all clean and tidy on the outside. Gradually it will get harder and harder for this soul to "keep it all together"- so depression is quite likely. Going into extreems of masochistic behavior- in which it takes on SOO much, trying extra hard to do a good job (and thus be accepted and approved of), and then periods of not trying at all- letting all things fall by the wayside, and simply having no energy to care. The latter pattern will surely subject this soul to rebuke and abuse, in some way, from others. Until this soul truly begins to realize that they dont have to live the same way anymore, they may even attraact, and ask for in some way, abuse from others. This is a distorted way of punishing themselves for thier inenr feelings of inadiquacy and lack. No matter how hard they work, they wont feel sincere in the life they are living, so they therefore feel deserving of punishment.
I can see 2 general kinds of relationships for this soul:
1. Relationships in which they are being bossed and tossed around by a partner that holds on very strongly to consensus values. These relationships put the soul in the position of the "submissive" in the sense that they get to experience judgement through thier partner as to how invaluable and meaningless they are. Through thier parter they experience the projection of thier deepst fears- being unworthy, not good enough for love.
2. Relationships with ppl who they can boss around and "fix up". This can also be quite abusive as this soul is trying to establish it's own authhority in a world that has such strong judgements and values. The soul will create relationships with other souls that are on the verge of, or in the beginning of first stage individuated. The soul will bank on the apathy, social disinterest, lack of responsibilty/purpose of thier partners and order them around. The sex has to operate in a certain way, the appearance of the relationship has to be in a certain way- this certain way being whatever it appropriate in that culture. Anything that strays from the norm of consensus will result in punishment. The soul will punish thier partners for being imperfect. This is a subconscious way of reflecting back to the soul the limitations and harshness of very judgements it is subjected to by it's culture. It's also a projection onto thier partner of the inner feelings of unworthiness and valuelessness it has on itself.
I think it's quite likely for this soul to be self conscious and inhibited when it comes to sexuality- leading to a possible "dark eros" psychology as described in the pluto in the 10th chapter.
The key for this soul to love itself more, develop an inner ear to trust it's own worth and value (ppp) is to focus on creating more boundaries from other ppl and developy simplicity in it's life so that it can let go and experience what it's like to live in a world and not feel like it has anything to do. the 12th house nn implies that this soul is learning that it doens't need to be constantly doing in order to be accepted. In fact that tendency to work all the time is just a manifestation of social conditioning (10th house sn ruler). This soul can learn that work is just a social construct. It will find other ways to spend it's time (10th house) that does not require constant and meaningless work.
making money isn't how this soul will probably seek to do that- at this evolutionary state, there can actually be a growing distate and hatred of money- and all the greed and false value and work that's associated with it. This soul however does need to find the richness of it's own value system, and in it's own way become rich (second house ruler). This implies creating boundaries and more self definition. To do that this soul will be learning what makes it's life worth living (second house) and subsequently make decisions based on that. It will aquire the resources and create a life around itself that refelcts it's true interests. This will allow the soul to relax and not feel the pressure to do anything in particular.
So returning to the food business example- this soul, based on increasing exposure to it's own interests- may eventually find a group of anarchists that grow food on abandoned plots of land and dumpster dive at whole foods trader joes and shopright. This is now reflecting a new social value system (10th house). Gradually, this soul will find that it naturally has a lot of social know how that allows it to "get around the system". ie knowing when the manager of the store goes on break, and thus knows the best time to steal food and not get caught etc.
In the end evolution occurs through this soul realizing that it can let go. that it's need to work and do the "right thing" is based strongly on the conditioning of it's culture, and there's truly nothing to do. and there isn't a "right thing". This soul may embrace a truly anarchistic "anything goes"- screw the rules- attitude. This will put the soul in a place of having literally NO DIRECTION. The key, at this evolutionary state, is to hold space within itself to discover a new relationship to the world it lives in, regardless of other ppl's judgements. The more time spent alone, with it's food, in the dumpsters, locating it's own value system, learning how to trust and love itself, the more this soul will find the ability to hold balanced relationships. It will attract other partners that themself have freed themselves from trying to fit in and meet social expectations. The relationships will move more and more towards having no clear definition or boundary. The negation of cultural rules around relationships will be super important for this soul.
It's possible that in rejecting it's conditioned way of living, this soul will be faced with poverty. This can be a very appropriate spin on the 12th house nn and ruler in the second. The key at this juncture is the realization that the soul has been dependent on consensus reality, and it's modality of living, in order to survive. So the poverty, literally being w/out it's basic needs, can lead this soul to radically re-establish it's values and find new ways of surviving. This soul can go from being a someone to a no one- outcase and disowned and looked down upon. If this soul can honor that they are OK and that they have simply chosen to not live unconsciously like everyone else, then they will find deep self acceptance and self love in this life- setting the stage for future lives living radically, and living in service to make the world a better place for all people. Possibly with a focus on how society relates to resources/survival.
If we are assuming a natural trine and sexile between all the nodes and nodal rulers- then this soul has the opportunity to truly be resourceful and use it's social knowhow and craftiness to survive on it's own. If
Likewise, if we are assuming the 7th house pluto to be inconjunct the nodes, and the apex of a yod to the nn and the nn ruler- then there is strong stress for this soul to find harmony with others that want the soul to be who they feel like being in the moment. Even amongst souls of a similar evolutionary state, it will struggle with feelings of rejection whenever it chooses not do what it is expected to do. It could be a consensus expectation to "wake up at 3:00 am to dumpster dive" while the soul would much rather sleep till 10! The key for resolving the yod, this soul has to put it's own needs first, at all cost- and learn how to create relationships that harmonize with it's own needs. This naturally implies attracting partners (7th house) into their life that respect and are attracted to the strongness of this soul's value system (second house), and won't try to pressure them to budge from thier comfortable nook (12th house). This is key for developing the first house polarity point.
Working on the "assignment" and waiting to read others post.
You know, I actually feel like we have a group, a class of sorts-it is really been amazing for me and I am very greatful. thank you y'all.
EA Assignment: Pluto 7th; South Node 6th w/ruler 10th; North Node 12th w/ruler 2nd; early individuated.
Coming into this lifetime, this soul has been learning a great deal through the experience of relationships. In their past, they have felt most secure having people in their life they feel connected to and share experiences with.
The previous lives and this one show natural gravitation to be of service to those in his/her life. S/he has achieved a position in society before and has natural ability to work out in the world. This signature suggests that the place in society was the way that allowed her/him to be of service to others. Perhaps a career as a councelor, therapist, nutritionist, or one who teaches a life management. Even positions in society of food service, body work(ex: massage or nurse) may have been the vehicle in which this soul was helping those around them.
Coming out of consensus reality paradigms, it is true that the past position was a "job" that exists in the consensus reality-so not a "wu-wu healer" or something. A service occupation.
This experience of serving others, pleasing others, meeting others needs is so natural to them, that even in their close partnership/marriages, they would naturally gravitate to a role of "taking care" of the other. They would always carry in their mind a list of all the chores and responsibilities that they saw as most important and would always be on task. Driven to succeed in this way, always taking care of this and that, weather out in the world or at home, this person would repeatedly sacrifice their own time to continue to "do the stuff that needed to get done"-hence that ever so famous "list"
Now, what do we know would enlighten this soul of a need to figure out that their own needs have been repeatedly pushed to the side and put at the bottom of the list? -a relationship experience that leads to a crisis.
With a 7th house pluto & sn 6th, there is a good chance that they ended up in relationships where they have attracted others that are needy. They may take a natural role of "the one who wears the pants". Also, with sn ruler 10th square 7th pluto, we would see a pattern of over critical judgement of others(and self) that they are in relationship to.
This person is so critical of everything that they do-"could have been done better" or "next time, we'll do it in this order" -This self criticalness and analysis can leads into guilt of failure. It in natural for them to judge them self and others by their own high standards. And so, when the imperfections reach a certain point, they realize that their partner can not actually read their mind and anticipate their own needs like the mindfulness that they have had of their(partner's)needs, we have trouble in paradise. Or, they are exhausted from giving and giving.
As stated earlier, the 10th/7th square suggests the nature of these past crisis-all revolving around others failing to meet their own high standard. At least, that is how it is initially analyzed. At times, their partners/friends/family probably felt like they were "walking on eggshells" around them, trying not to do this wrong or screw up that. So, we see this over-criticalness of, first self, and then others, creating tension within the relationships and high expectations. And so the pattern repeats, same story, different place and time.......
Until....until they realize that they are alone. Why did I end up alone? To learn that they alone are responsible for the fulfillment of their own needs. They are going to need to pull away from the never ending "list" and let all the responsibilities of the world dissolve into the ethers. In this quiet-tude, deep in their soul they will feel renewal and connection to something, something beyond words; certainly beyond descriptive understanding of the local consensus culture. In this calm, in this nothingness and everything, all their worry, self doubt, guilt may dissipate like a fog clearing. Guilt of how they acted in relationship, how they made others feel, etc...
They will be able to begin this "un-named" spiritual journey only by begining to fulfill their own needs. They need to become more self reliant instead of projecting this expectation on relationships. Once they become rooted into "who they are" and "what they are"-they can begin to take care of their self, not just others. Seeing that the ruler of n.n. completes the grand trine to sn and it's ruler, we know that it will be of relative ease to apply all the skills that were directed to others and keeping the relationship going and apply these same skills to her/himself. The challenge will be to actually BE with their self-the natural square of sn ruler 10th to p.p.p 1st suggests that it would be natural and comfortable to fall into being in their career/social position which will challenge them in making/allowing the space and time to be with their self that they need.
So, taking care of their own needs will lead them into getting in touch with the divine and thru that experience finding self.
Once in touch with their own self, they can know thyself and re-enter relationship in a balanced healthy way.
Seeing that this soul is in the early individuated state, their sense of "supplying their own resources" will be moving beyond just paying their own bills, buying their own food, etc. That will now have an emptiness to it which they will be casting aside. They will more likely decide to focus on development of a particular skill of talent that they are drawn to. This skill could easily be seen as some type of "zen" or "monastic" activity-like book binding or knitting. The process of practice of the skill, when they give them self the time, will be a gateway to experience the "divine". At this stage of evolution, they may not exactly describe it as such, but they will know that in that "space" all the worry, doubt, self guilt often falls away and they exerience renewal. They will attract others who have similar gravitation towards experience of life beyond the "ordinary" as defined by the local consensus culture. In this way, they would be seen as "progressive" by the consensus culture which they are in, in service to, but no longer "of".
Thanks for taking time to read this and all feedback,
Bradley
Early 1st Stage Individuated - 7th House Pluto - 6th House SN - 10th house Facilitator
The Soul is able to adapt to changes within himself, within his relationships, in his day to day work and in his career by being able to make lots of adjustments and beginnings. Since we are dealing with the 6th, 7th and 10th houses he will be most concerned with how he relates to others, how he can be of service to others, and his social function in society.
Early 1st Stage Individuated Evolutionary Condition
"¢ He feels a degree of alienation and aloneness and compensates for this by undertaking what is expected of him by society. It is unlikely that he will actualize individualistic work, but rather will undertake traditional 6th/10th house roles in conventional areas that are of service to the mainstream. He secretly has a hard time relating to common people, yet he continues with his work in a dutiful and self-sacrificing way.
"¢ He tends to criticize all that is "normal" as defined by society, and attempts to separate himself from the mainstream, yet he is able to make the most out of situations by displaying stability, service, graciousness and by fulfilling his social role out of a sense of duty.
"¢ He's not sure where his values lie or what to think and this produces a sense of meaninglessness. He tries a variety of friendships, relationships and social roles in an attempt to find the one that feels right or one that he can believe in.
7th House Pluto
"¢ The (unconscious) core orientation to life is through the 7th house lessons in relationships, social values, the comparison of beliefs and values, and a search for meaning. He will absorb the different realities of others, examine all the parts using his x-ray vision, and derive judgments of right and wrong. He is developing relationship skills and learning to understand another's reality in order to be of practical service to them and to give them what they actually need.
"¢ Because of the compulsive need to compare and discover who he is through others, a need to retain his position in society, and a search for values and meaning, he may become attracted to very powerful, self-assured, prominent people in society whom he would wish to emulate, serve, or put up on a pedestal.
"¢ He tends to criticise and expose his partner's deficiencies and weaknesses, and provide advice for improvements. This naturally sets up confrontations which result in reflection and examination of the difficulties in the relationship, possible endings, and which promote lessons in humility, self-analysis and forgiveness.
6th House South Node
"¢ The SN 6th describes the (conscious) mode of operation for the soul intention in this life. He has been learning the evolutionary lesson of service to others, developed through intense self-analysis, how to fulfil service through his relationships, and how to fulfil a specific function within his work in society by sacrificing his own personal needs for the whole.
"¢ He desires to serve others by applying practical methods in his work function. With his x-ray mind for exposing imperfections, he is able to intuit and analyse deficiencies in the organizational structure, and to provide new and different ideas to improve the work function in a generalized sense. The new ideas represent his personal power and emotional security. As he tries to convince others in the workplace of his new ideas, he would naturally draw criticism and feedback to promote lessons in humility and self-analysis. He learns to make adjustments and to create positive changes which are right and perfect and symbolized by Libra-Pisces.
"¢ Within the SN 6th house karmic signature, and pressure from the generally confused 1st stage individuated evolutionary condition, our subject may experience sadomasochism in his relationships. He could lash out at his partner, compulsively pointing out their faults and weaknesses. As this dynamic is played out, it leads to imbalance in the relationship through guilt - anger - atonement or making amends - dominance and submission - inferiority and superiority - power and powerlessness - criticism and forgiveness. The masochistic pathology can play out with both partners and the messages will be around deserving pain, punishment and crisis, with either or both partners feeling worthless. Eventually the masochistic tendency tends to exhaust itself, reality sets in, and it changes.
"¢ If he is unable to live up to his own expectations of perfection in his relationship or in his career, he could suffer guilt with a profound inhibiting effect, where he feels he does not deserve anything beyond what he already has, and punishes himself. He may find himself in a state of perpetual crisis and guilt due to not being able to fulfil his personal capacities or abilities.
"¢ He could blame others by projecting all the wrongs onto the environment. He could feel victimized by everyone, especially by partners, co-workers or society itself. This can lead to deep depression, futility, emotional and mental paralysis, bitterness, spitefulness, jealousy, utter lack of power, and utter lack of being in control of life. The unending web of complaints and criticism attract attacks upon himself which only deepens his sense of isolation and persecution. He is learning that the responsibility for such conditions lies within himself.
"¢ The need for atonement which leads to personal crisis (self-denial, self-sacrifice, self-doubt, self-criticism, physical illness) and which leads to bringing the issues to a head is necessary for this person.
"¢ Analysis can promote self-adjustment, self-improvement and self-knowledge. Behavioural, intellectual or emotional patterns that are preventing further growth are purged.
"¢ Mutable movement or action promotes clarity, perspective, and understanding, which leads to changes in personal routines, allows him to get in touch with himself at a core level, and enforces humility.
10th House Facilitator
"¢ The 10th house ruler of the SN acts as the catalyst or facilitator that makes the mode of operation possible. In order to fulfil his lessons in relationships, work requirements and service to the whole, he is learning to establish his own authority within society with lessons in discipline, self-determination, responsibility for one's actions, emotional and social maturity, identifying goals and abilities and actualizing them through his own efforts.
"¢ He has a desire to be in control of his position within society, and is aware of his power and powerlessness in a societal context. He may defend himself against any usurping of his power or status.
"¢ Within the karmic signature of the 10th house facilitator, he may struggle to dominate his partner, or to take the lead, yet is generally confused as to what role he should play in relationships.
"¢ He may suffer emotional shocks delivered by parents, children or spouse that force deep self-examination on an inner emotional basis. He may neglect his children or marriage due to career obligations.
* * *
Looking forward to your 'critique' Rad. ;)
Linda
Hi Ari, Bradley, and Linda,
I will be able to look at your work either tomorrow or the next day. Have been overwhelmed by many obligations in the past days that have needed to be tended too. I apologize for the delay.
Rad
Ari,
Quote from: ari moshe on Oct 02, 2009, 08:20 PM
New to 1st stage individuated
7th house pluto
sn in 6th, ruler in 10th
nn in 12th, ruler in second
The key for this soul to love itself more, develop an inner ear to trust it's own worth and value (ppp) is to focus on creating more boundaries from other ppl and developy simplicity in it's life so that it can let go and experience what it's like to live in a world and not feel like it has anything to do. the 12th house nn implies that this soul is learning that it doens't need to be constantly doing in order to be accepted. In fact that tendency to work all the time is just a manifestation of social conditioning (10th house sn ruler). This soul can learn that work is just a social construct. It will find other ways to spend it's time (10th house) that does not require constant and meaningless work.
making money isn't how this soul will probably seek to do that- at this evolutionary state, there can actually be a growing distate and hatred of money- and all the greed and false value and work that's associated with it. This soul however does need to find the richness of it's own value system, and in it's own way become rich (second house ruler). This implies creating boundaries and more self definition. To do that this soul will be learning what makes it's life worth living (second house) and subsequently make decisions based on that. It will aquire the resources and create a life around itself that refelcts it's true interests. This will allow the soul to relax and not feel the pressure to do anything in particular.
*****************************************************************************
No so at this point of evolution. There will be an evolutionary need felt within the individual to actualize a work that does reflect the changing values and the meaning for it's life.
****************************************************************************
So returning to the food business example- this soul, based on increasing exposure to it's own interests- may eventually find a group of anarchists that grow food on abandoned plots of land and dumpster dive at whole foods trader joes and shopright. This is now reflecting a new social value system (10th house). Gradually, this soul will find that it naturally has a lot of social know how that allows it to "get around the system". ie knowing when the manager of the store goes on break, and thus knows the best time to steal food and not get caught etc.
****************************************************************************
Again, this would not occur at this stage of evolution. The 'dumpster diving' , relative to your example, would be more probable at the 2nd stage of individuation due to the total rebellion that is the core archetype at that point.
***************************************************************************
In the end evolution occurs through this soul realizing that it can let go. that it's need to work and do the "right thing" is based strongly on the conditioning of it's culture, and there's truly nothing to do. and there isn't a "right thing". This soul may embrace a truly anarchistic "anything goes"- screw the rules- attitude. This will put the soul in a place of having literally NO DIRECTION. The key, at this evolutionary state, is to hold space within itself to discover a new relationship to the world it lives in, regardless of other ppl's judgements. The more time spent alone, with it's food, in the dumpsters, locating it's own value system, learning how to trust and love itself, the more this soul will find the ability to hold balanced relationships. It will attract other partners that themself have freed themselves from trying to fit in and meet social expectations. The relationships will move more and more towards having no clear definition or boundary. The negation of cultural rules around relationships will be super important for this soul.
******************************************************************************
You are describing what could occur in the 2nd stage individuated Ari, not the very beginning of the 1st Stage. In the first stage it will be a progressive separation from the consensus in the sense of working just to work, of doing what society says to do, and to discover a work that does reflect the individuals inner relationship to them self: the N.Node ruler in the 2nd. As a result, the types of relationships that the individual then forms will be based on this inner Soul searching from within them self, other individuals who are basically at the same point of evolution.
**************************************************************************
It's possible that in rejecting it's conditioned way of living, this soul will be faced with poverty. This can be a very appropriate spin on the 12th house nn and ruler in the second. The key at this juncture is the realization that the soul has been dependent on consensus reality, and it's modality of living, in order to survive. So the poverty, literally being w/out it's basic needs, can lead this soul to radically re-establish it's values and find new ways of surviving. This soul can go from being a someone to a no one- outcase and disowned and looked down upon. If this soul can honor that they are OK and that they have simply chosen to not live unconsciously like everyone else, then they will find deep self acceptance and self love in this life- setting the stage for future lives living radically, and living in service to make the world a better place for all people. Possibly with a focus on how society relates to resources/survival.
*****************************************************************************
Again, this is much more 2nd stage individuated stuff.
****************************************************************************
If we are assuming a natural trine and sexile between all the nodes and nodal rulers- then this soul has the opportunity to truly be resourceful and use it's social knowhow and craftiness to survive on it's own. If
Likewise, if we are assuming the 7th house pluto to be inconjunct the nodes, and the apex of a yod to the nn and the nn ruler- then there is strong stress for this soul to find harmony with others that want the soul to be who they feel like being in the moment. Even amongst souls of a similar evolutionary state, it will struggle with feelings of rejection whenever it chooses not do what it is expected to do. It could be a consensus expectation to "wake up at 3:00 am to dumpster dive" while the soul would much rather sleep till 10! The key for resolving the yod, this soul has to put it's own needs first, at all cost- and learn how to create relationships that harmonize with it's own needs. This naturally implies attracting partners (7th house) into their life that respect and are attracted to the strongness of this soul's value system (second house), and won't try to pressure them to budge from thier comfortable nook (12th house). This is key for developing the first house polarity point.
Good effort Ari, but I would suggest, if you feel like it, to rework your analysis that does reflect more accurately the beginnings of the 1st stage individuated.
Rad
Hi Bradley,
Very good effort and quite accurate as far as you developed it.
Rad
Hi Linda,
A very, very good effort and generally accurate although the 10th house facilitator could have been developed much more. Your development of the sado/masochistic theme within relationships was excellent.
Rad
Ari, Linda, Bradley, Michelle, and Stephen,
Do you guys still want to do these practice charts ? Let me know ..........
Rad
Yes, how about the next assignment?
Hi Rad,
I'm happy with the progress I'm making, but seem to be stumbling over merging all the possible meanings of the karmic signature together. And we haven't even covered the signs yet!
I'm all into tips and hints on how to do this. Do we use our imagination, logic, knowledge, guesswork - or a combination of all these? Is it just a matter of practise - practise - practise!
I have been reluctant to use my imagination when doing the exercises - but after reading what the others have written, it seems that on many occasions what I had written through my imagination turned out to be right. And I guess that's what these practice chart sessions are all about - to make sure our intuitive process and the knowledge we have gained so far is on the right track - and to learn to put the karmic signatures together through trial and error.
As you suggested, Rad, I am reading the relevant chapters in Pluto I.
Any help in methodology you can offer at this stage would be greatly appreciated. I find I learn best when following precise instructions! ;D (Mercury in Cap, 3rd house)
Thanks for your directions so far ... your correction of errors in regards to the evolutionary stages is especially helpful!
Linda
Rad and all,
it appears that we could go back to develop, and...I also wonder if proceeding ahead will be positive for continuing growth and learning. It seems that in the future, we will look back and in our hindsight see how to develop more, beyond the depth we are developing now.
I open to either or, but feeling more motivation to move on or perhaps some clue(s) to give direction in development of this past assignment.
Hi Linda,
Quote from: Linda on Oct 19, 2009, 01:03 PM
Hi Rad,
I'm happy with the progress I'm making, but seem to be stumbling over merging all the possible meanings of the karmic signature together. And we haven't even covered the signs yet!
I'm all into tips and hints on how to do this. Do we use our imagination, logic, knowledge, guesswork - or a combination of all these? Is it just a matter of practise - practise - practise!
****************************************************************************
It is really a matter of practice, and also doing charts for others using this EA paradigm because the more you do , the more you learn through correlation and observation. It's a matter of thinking and rethinking the archetypes as written by Wolf in his books. What many have experienced in his books is that the more you read them , the more presents itself. Somehow they are ever new. So, yes, allow your imagination to flow as you consider and contemplate the possible meanings when tying together the whole paradigm of EA: Pluto natal, S.Node, it's planetary ruler, Pluto's polarity point, the N.Node, and it's planetary ruler. As you said you have been finding that as you have done this that it does reflect itself back in the other's analysis. And it's off the mark, well that's my role to show you where and how, and to point out the correction. That's how we learn. So just keep going Linda. You have been doing very, very well.
****************************************************************************
I have been reluctant to use my imagination when doing the exercises - but after reading what the others have written, it seems that on many occasions what I had written through my imagination turned out to be right. And I guess that's what these practice chart sessions are all about - to make sure our intuitive process and the knowledge we have gained so far is on the right track - and to learn to put the karmic signatures together through trial and error.
As you suggested, Rad, I am reading the relevant chapters in Pluto I.
Any help in methodology you can offer at this stage would be greatly appreciated. I find I learn best when following precise instructions! ;D (Mercury in Cap, 3rd house)
***************************************************************************
Well,the methodology is already in place. It's just a matter of deepening within that methodology Linda: developing ever more fully the totality of the archetypes of the examples that we are using.
Thanks for your directions so far ... your correction of errors in regards to the evolutionary stages is especially helpful!
Linda
You are very welcome Linda, Rad
Hi Bradley,
Quote from: Bradley J on Oct 19, 2009, 08:36 PM
Rad and all,
it appears that we could go back to develop, and...I also wonder if proceeding ahead will be positive for continuing growth and learning. It seems that in the future, we will look back and in our hindsight see how to develop more, beyond the depth we are developing now.
I open to either or, but feeling more motivation to move on or perhaps some clue(s) to give direction in development of this past assignment.
I feel that we need to develop more of the existing example that we are working with. If you want to do that then I would recommend that you study Pluto in the 10th in Wolf's first book, and Pluto in the 6th and focus on the archetypes of guilt presented therein. Within that the need for atonement because of that guilt, as well as anger because of that guilt. Then apply that to the relationships types formed via the 7th House Pluto. See what you come up with.
Rad
Rad,
Okay, I will. Thanks for the direction
i feel nurtured by the very presence of this community. thank you all of you for being here.
i would certainly love to continue with these charts. i still intend to develop my last interpretation more as to rad's suggestions. i must say however that im traveling right now and am seldom capable (or desirous) of focusing my energy by a computer or in general, towards thinking. (saturn just entered my first house and is squaring my mercury neptune in the 4th.) so dont let me hold anyone up.
on another note entirely- rad, may i request a reading with you? The opportunity would be a blessing. of course i understand if you dont respond to this.
Hi Ari,
Quote from: ari moshe on Oct 22, 2009, 03:33 PM
i feel nurtured by the very presence of this community. thank you all of you for being here.
i would certainly love to continue with these charts. i still intend to develop my last interpretation more as to rad's suggestions. i must say however that im traveling right now and am seldom capable (or desirous) of focusing my energy by a computer or in general, towards thinking. (saturn just entered my first house and is squaring my mercury neptune in the 4th.) so dont let me hold anyone up.
on another note entirely- rad, may i request a reading with you? The opportunity would be a blessing. of course i understand if you dont respond to this.
Have been thinking about your request. If I do this it would have to be done through email type correspondence versus a phone, and I would also ask you to identify and write down the specific questions you would want to ask which is what I would then answer. Am also thinking that the the 'fee' that I would charge would be something like $100 U.S. that could be payable to Wolf's daughter via the School Of Evolutionary Astrology. I would like to dedicate this fee to EA because of my desire to help in the EA councils efforts to spread this work as far and wide as possible. I know there are plans to try to do another conference again, etc, so I would hope that any contribution I or others could make would help serve this purpose. So if you are agreeable to doing it in this way let me know Ari.
God Bless, Rad
Rad,
Yes I am still interested in doing practice charts. I am working two jobs right now so my time is limited. I will make more effort to participate in writting, I have just been reading along.
Blessings,
Michelle
Yes, I am most agreeable, thank you for this opportunity. What is your email? If you dont want to disclose that publicly, you can email me:
[email protected]
Hi Rad,
I've put this together in point form, using my imagination, so I hope most of it is accurate, and look forward to learning through trial and error! ;D
Guilt, Atonement and Anger applied to:
Early 1st Stage Individuated - 7th House Pluto - 6th House SN - 10th House Facilitator
Early 1st Stage Individuated"¢ Guilt will manifest firstly because there is conflict between his desire to be free of the patterns of the consensus society, and hiding behind a façade of "normalness."
"¢ He plays a role in society of what is expected of him, but as this self-imposed conformist role does not express his true need for individuation, he suffers guilt, resentment, bitterness and anger. A lot of the anger is suppressed.
"¢ This leads to crisis, atonement, self-analysis, and finally to self-adjustment.
"¢ It also leads him to progressively find work that allows him to express a little more of his uniqueness.
"¢ He judges himself as "wrong" and therefore punishes himself because he is lying to himself and to others, because he is dishonest in his relationships and within the role he plays in society.
"¢ This leads to guilt then to a crisis of atonement for the lies and deceptions.
"¢ There is conflict between appearing to do all the right things in society's eyes, and a desire to break free to express his individuality.
"¢ The suppressed anger leads to projecting all the wrongs onto the environment; it makes him very grumpy and critical, and he takes this out on the ones closest to him.
7th House Pluto "¢ Hiding from society can also manifest by involving himself in a "normal" type of relationship.
"¢ He may project his need for individuation onto another, by finding a partner who is very together, individuated, and who would accept his "differentness."
"¢ As he is comparing his beliefs and values with others, he may at first parrot the consensus idea of anything which only leads to the realisation of his own dishonesty, then to guilt, then to atonement.
"¢ He will absorb the different realities of others, examine all the parts using his x-ray vision, and derive judgments of right and wrong.
"¢ He may partner with very powerful, self-assured, prominent people in personal or business relationships. He can totally lose himself within these relationships by putting others up on a pedestal, losing money in business, giving away his power, serving others too much, and playing a submissive role. This causes a feeling of incompetence and impotency in his relationships.
"¢ He becomes dependent on seeing himself through his partner's eyes for a sense of identity.
"¢ Progressively, he finds partners who encourage him in his independent thoughts, and he slowly starts to express his "differentness" a little more.
"¢ He may play the submissive role over and over again in his relationships because of the guilt pattern and the need to punish himself.
"¢ He may lash out by struggling to play a dominant role in relationship with somebody he perceives as imperfect or impure - so that he can work on changing and improving the partner. This particular type of "service" can lead to sadomasochism.
"¢ Relationships tend to polarize. He considers himself "faultless" while his partner becomes the "imperfect" or "impure" one. He criticises and exposes his partner's deficiencies and weaknesses, under the guise of being helpful and of service. This pattern can be repeated to the point that his partner becomes immobilised and starts to believe they really are impure. This naturally sets up confrontations which results in possible separation, and certainly reflection and examination of the difficulties.
"¢ If the partner wants to end the relationship, this can lead to feelings of guilt, failure, worthlessness, depression, aloneness but also to humility, self-analysis and forgiveness.
"¢ Alternatively, he may attract a powerful partner who compulsively points out his faults and imperfections.
"¢ He could angrily lash out at his partner, with all the force of the pent-up emotions associated with living a lie, and not being in touch with his own self, to compensate for the feeling of powerlessness and impotency.
"¢ This leads to the sadomasochistic pathology or imbalance in the relationship through guilt - anger - atonement or making amends - dominance and submission - inferiority and superiority - power and powerlessness - criticism and forgiveness.
"¢ He is not necessarily aware of his power and powerlessness in a relationship context, until polarization and crisis occurs.
"¢ He will try to find a partner to help him find more meaning in his life.
6th House SN"¢ He has a conscious desire to be of service to others through his work. This can lead to playing a subservient role in work relations or to becoming a workaholic.
"¢ Through his x-ray mind on some level he perceives the inequality in his working relationships yet, due to living a lie, can feel such deep guilt that he is frozen to make any changes, so dutifully continues with the charade.
"¢ This leads to fear of moving forward and so he gets security from repeating the same self-defeating patterns which in turn lead to more severe crises - suppresssed anger - atonement - and finally self-adjustment.
"¢ Workaholism can lead to feelings of guilt if it takes him away from his obligations to his family.
"¢ He tries to convince others of his new ideas in the workplace. If these ideas are not accepted, can lead to feelings of failure, loss of power, and guilt in not fulfilling his capacities.
"¢ He is generally aware of his power and powerlessness in a workplace context.
10th House Facilitator"¢ He could become extremely successful in his social role by adhering to a high standard of conduct, since he wishes to be of service to the whole through an egoconcentric orientation.
"¢ His fear-based consciousness, limitations and boundaries force him to self-purify and to make adjustments in relationships.
"¢ Having to adapt to what others expect of him leads to a crisis around the need to find and express his self-authority.
"¢ Because of the guilt of living a lie, or sadomasochism in his relationship, or feelings of inferiority or worthlessness, he may give too much service to society in order to compensate.
"¢ He may suffer emotional shocks delivered by parents, children or spouse that force deep self-examination. He may neglect his children or marriage due to career obligations.
"¢ He has a need to retain his position in society. He will try to stop anyone usurping his power. This may also lead to abusing his position through dishonesty which in turn will lead to a fall from grace, crisis, atonement, etc.
"¢ He may partner with very powerful, self-assured, prominent people in society whom he wishes to emulate. He can totally lose himself within these relationships, put others on a pedestal, give away his power, serve too much, be controlled by, and play a submissive role.
"¢ If he is unable to live up to his own expectations of perfection in his career, he could suffer guilt with a profound inhibiting effect where he feels he does not deserve anything beyond what he already has.
"¢ He may find himself in a state of perpetual crisis and guilt due to not being able to fulfil his personal capacities or abilities in his career.
"¢ He could feel victimized and blame "society" by projecting all the wrongs onto the environment.
"¢ An example could be that he "supports" the Greens party, by voting for them at Elections, but will tend to keep his vote a secret to himself, and certainly would not share this information with his mainstream friends.
"¢ Examples of a career could be nurse, carer, nutritionist, physiotherapist, osteopath, or relationship counsellor - but usually in a mainstream institution.
"¢ He may be unable to actualize his goals through his own efforts if he invests too much of himself into his partner/relationship by seeking their approval or self-validation first.
"¢ Self-judgment of right and wrong can turn sadomasochistic tendencies around once reality sets it, leading to true humility and positive change to all types of relationships.
"¢ He is aware of his power and powerlessness in a societal context.
After I receive your response, Rad, I will work on 12th House NN, and 2nd House Facilitator.
Thanks,
Linda
Hi Linda,
Very good summary of the core dynamics of this configuration. So go ahead and to the polarity points now. Bravo.
Rad
Quote from: Rad on Mar 24, 2009, 01:26 PM
Hello All,
I was wondering if some of you would like to do some practice charts utilizing the EA paradigm ? If so, please respond to this post and let me know. Rad
Hi Rad, is it possible to add myself as one interested in analyzing practice charts via the EA paradigm? I am not a total beginner, and I still have much to learn regarding EA perspective. I have both Pluto books and have been rereading them of late.
Thanks for the consideration, and if not, maybe the next time around.
Wendy
Hi Wendy,
You are more than welcome to join us in these practice charts. If you have read through this thread, which I am sure you have, you will see that the EA paradigm that we are currently working on. So, for now, I would suggest you read through these posts and the go ahead and develop your own analysis of the current paradigm that we are working on. Ari is going to redo parts of his, Bradley will be expanding on what he already wrote, and Linda will be adding to her own. So the timing is just right if you want to jump in now.
Rad
Yeah Wendy! Welcome-
hey all, life has been so busy, like so many of us, very close to reposting.
if i don't make it tomorrow night, i'll be unavaiable for a few days, so...if not sooner, later.
many thanks for you all here,
b
Hi everyone
i realized b4 i proceed, it would help me to see a few examples of a well known people who are in the beginning of first stage individuated. got any?
Is bill clinton an example of one? or is he at the end of third consensus?
Gosh, good question, Ari. I know that years ago, when Clinton was going thru the Monica Lewinsky scandal, Wolf said he (as well as Hillary) was 3rd stage consensus on the CUSP of 1st stage individuated. I can't think of anything that would push him over INto 1st individuated yet, but maybe Rad, Deva, or someone else knows of something.
Hi Ari, and hello everyone,
I think it's hard to find famous people who are 1st stage Individuated because the nature of that condition is to be separating the self/Soul from the pack, from whence the famous people come. My Gen-X identity is showing full-on with this post, but I think two good examples of 1st stage Individuated, from my own point of view, and for whatever it's worth (?), are: Cyndi Lauper (who became famous FOR her "weirdness," and then ducked out of the spotlight and did non-mainstream stuff when her management wanted her to do consensus pop songs and stay famous), and Rivers Cuomo, singer/songwriter of the "alternative" rock band Weezer. Born in an ashram, a meditation teacher, and a generally eccentric guy, he still very much cares if his records sell, still needs the validation of the masses -- he openly admits to wanting #1 records.
To me, these people are good examples of 1st stage Individuated because they had (or still have, to some extent) mainstream success, but still have a lifestyle away from the spotlight that is very unique to them.
I hope you don't mind me chipping in my one and one half cents on this one! :)
Love and blessings to you,
Lesley
Great question-Ari. If memory serves a good example of somebody in the 1st stage individuated state is Carl Jung. His approuch, or understanding, of psychology is based upon the individuation process in general, and that every human being has their own inherant individuality that must be expressed and actualized. From what I understand of his work, he understood how to work with the individual nature of the person, and supported the need for personal individuation in the context of liberating from traditional, or conventional, ways of being in general.
Deva
Hi Deva,
May I ask a question about Carl Jung's evolutionary stage? My understanding, such as it is, has always been that to have such a lasting and deep impact on the consensus, as Jung has had, and to bring a new paradigm to an old one so as to forever change the consensus' view of that original paradigm and evolve the paradigm itself forward, a Soul would be at around the 3rd stage Individuated evolutionary condition. He also wrote a lot about God, I believe, and had a cosmology of his own that informed his work...
I always thought of him as 3rd stage Individuated because he had such a firm grasp on the individuation process, it would seem that a Soul would need to be at 3rd stage Individuated to be able to understand and explain the condition, and all the varying degrees within it, so well. But I am just asking here...please know that I don't mean to argue the point at all.
Love and blessings to all,
Lesley
Hi Lesley,
I would agree with you about Jung and being in the 3rd Stage individuated.
Rad
Hi Rad,
Thank you very much for your kind reply. Again I am so grateful for the ability to share thoughts and ideas on this board...in our little blessed community here.
Love and blessings to you,
Lesley
EA Assignment: Pluto 7th; South Node 6th w/ruler 10th; North Node 12th w/ruler 2nd; early individuated. Revision #1
Coming into this lifetime, this soul has been learning a great deal through the experience of relationships. In their past, they have felt most secure having people in their life they feel connected to and share experiences with. This soul will have in the past and this lifetime naturally gravitate toward a role of serving in relationships.
S/he has achieved a position in society before and has natural ability to work out in the world. This signature suggests that the place in society was the way that allowed her/him to be of service to others. Perhaps a career as a councelor, therapist, nutritionist, or one who teaches a life management. Even positions in society of food service, body work(ex: massage or nurse) may have been the vehicle in which this soul was helping those around them. Coming out of consensus reality paradigms, it is true that the past position was a "job" that exists in the consensus reality-so not a "wu-wu healer" or something. A service occupation. Yet, with just coming out of consensus evolutionary stage, we'd expect that they had achieved a high status role in society and was able to give to partner(s) the comforts of having all their external securities met thru this position(job).
This experience of serving others, pleasing others, meeting others needs is so natural to them, that even in their close partnership/marriages, they would naturally gravitate to a role of "taking care" of the other. They would always carry in their mind a list of all the chores and responsibilities that they saw as most important and would always be on task. Driven to succeed in this way, always taking care of this and that, weather out in the world or at home, this person would repeatedly sacrifice their own time to continue to "do the stuff that needed to get done"-hence that ever so famous "list"
With a 7th house pluto & sn 6th, there is a good chance that they ended up in relationships where they have attracted others that are needy. They may take a natural role of "the one who wears the pants". They would naturally feel a fulfillment as they are able to meet the other's needs.
We can expect that what has propelled this soul out of the late consensus stage into the early individuated stage was a crisis in the experiences of relationship. Based on the south node in the 6th with the ruler in the 10th, we could expect to have seen the ways in which they served others was coming from a late consensus perspective in the past-specifically by providing others the service of material comforts and security.(ruler s.n. 10th) At some point in relationship, the crisis would have arisen where this individual was faced with the reality that they were not fulfilling themselves at a soul level which was reflected back to them as their partner(s) were not being fulfilled by his/her efforts to serve from a consensus perspective-as opposed to serving with an understanding of their needs as an individual.
This person in the past and this life carried with them a strong socially assimilated "code of conduct" which resulted in their own judgements-what is right and wrong behavior-in this case with an emphasis on behavior in relationships(pluto 7). With the s.n. in the 6th, we except to see this person constantly analyzing their own actions-specific to how well they are serving the needs of others/partner(s) in relationships. This pattern in their past lives resulted in a deep sense of what they perceived as their own failures/faults/shortcomings/imperfections in relationships. Hence, they carry with them into this life a deep, probably unconscious, guilt of these past "mistakes".
The operating of these unconscious guilt forces deep within are existing in the conscious mind in this life seen thru persistent desire to serve in relationships. Always taking the service role, they will consciously judge their ability to meet their partner/other(s) needs...or not.
When they are in this state of mental self analysis and see the cases of not meeting partner/other(s) needs, it results in a form of a crisis. In this type of crisis, there are three potential outcomes we'd expect to see.
First, if this criticism is all self focused and they may see themselves as "not good enough" and unworthy. This lose of confidence in their self results in their own inability to receive in relationships and a pattern of procrastination-where they would be coming up with all the reasons why they are not ready for this thing, unworthy for this, etc.
The end result in this response to crisis thru relationship results in more self doubt, self criticism, self failure, self judgement---more guilt---->which results in a repeat of this cycle as this person will again and again be propelled out of need to atone for this guilt through serving others.
Second, we may see this criticism externalized. With the sn ruler 10th, we would expect to see a pattern of their own sense of right and wrong resulting in judgement of others(natural square 10 to 7). In this case, they will eventually drive off the other with all their projected judgements-creating in partner/other that same feeling that they are not ever able to live up to such high expectations. The end result is aloneness. This is a larger crisis for this person because it is thrown back in their face that they have failed to be a supportive/serving partner/friend. The end result is an either or of carry more guilt or hopefully we'd see the pluto polarity point activated in this case.
Third, if this mental self analysis stays internal, it may result in self adjusting behaviors, self improvement, and self knowledge. In this case, we could see the P.P.P being activated w/out a larger crises to catalyze the evolutionary momentum.
Based on the actual nature of this square(planets, signs, and exact phase), we could get more specific on this. Also, we'd look for the larger relationship crises to be during the fourth and eight harmonic contacts with the 7th/10th square via transit, progression and arcs-especially when it involves one of the planets in the squaring pair-pluto or the ruling planet of the south node.
Another type of crisis we see with this karmic signature is the "list" of responsibilities, in this case most likely external obligations(snr10), to be the thing that (a): Keeps this person unavailable from actually really sharing and hearing others in relationships. and (b): Keeps this person from taking the time for themselves that they need. It would be natural to see them first try to make time for other and then self if they are in deeper self denial pattern. With a south node in 6th, we'd expect a natural self criticism to exist where it is "not perfect" behavior to be with their self-actually viewed as selfish and immature on some level. On the flip side, they will see all their activities towards serving outside of themselves as the "perfect path". This may not be conscious, but we will want to look for how hard it is to take this needed(from evolutionary perspective) time for them self. And how hard it is to let go of this list of responsibilities (the ruler of the south node) and we'll see that they view their past approach to serving others as more perfect than the concept of service beginning with service to self.
The positive side of all these crises is that they potentially reveal to them their own patterns and HOW they have actually failed to fulfill THEIR OWN capabilities. In any crisis, we would ideally hope to see this person gain such self awareness and self insights and progress from that point. This results in the self correction, self adjustment, and self improvement pattern.
One more negative response to crisis to watch for is the "web of mental and emotional paralysis" (thank your JWG). The web is spun by the constant self criticisms. In this web, we see the root of their immobilization. The key out of this response is to simply keep talking, keep moving, keep walking, doing, living. Even if it is just the dishes and cleaning the home, initiating this outer renewal can lead into the inner renewal needed.
One more layer to this signature to keep in mind is the nature of their own judgements of right and wrong, which will have roots in a consensus paradigm(just left consensus w/sn ruler in the 10th). So, watch for the casting off of this consensus defined right and wrong along with the search to establish their own version of this thru many different relationship experiences. This creates a natural tension (again 7/10 square) as s/he will be seeking to have some functional form to judge and evaluate their own and others from. First, we see this could result in confusion surrounding judgements and decision making. Second, we see the tension of their openness to others point of view in relation to their own developing judgements.
Eventually, at a potent evolutionary juncture in their life, they will find themselves alone. Why did I end up alone? They have ended up alone to realize that the begining of transforming their service to others into perfect most first begin with self knowledge. To learn that they alone are responsible for the fulfillment of their own needs. They will need to learn that they are not actually fulfilling their own needs thru fulfilling others/partners needs. They are going to need to pull away from the never ending "list" and let all the responsibilities of the world dissolve into the ethers. In this quiet-tude, deep in their soul they will feel renewal and connection to something, something beyond words; certainly beyond descriptive understanding of the local consensus culture. In this calm, in this nothingness and everything, all their worry, self doubt, guilt may dissipate like a fog clearing. Guilt of how they acted in relationship, how they made others feel, etc...
They will be able to begin this "un-named" spiritual journey only by begining to fulfill their own needs. They need to become more self reliant instead of projecting this expectation on relationships. Once they become rooted into "who they are" and "what they are"-they can begin to take care of their self, not just others. Seeing that the ruler of n.n. completes the grand trine to sn and it's ruler, we know that it will be of relative ease to apply all the skills that were directed to others and keeping the relationship going and apply these same skills to her/himself. The challenge will be to actually BE with their self-the natural square of sn ruler 10th to p.p.p 1st suggests that it would be natural and comfortable to fall into being in their career/social position which will challenge them in making/allowing the space and time to be with their self that they need.
So, taking care of their own needs will lead them into getting in touch with the divine and thru that experience finding self.
Once in touch with their own self, they can know thyself and re-enter relationship in a balanced healthy way.
Seeing that this soul is in the early individuated state, their sense of "supplying their own resources" will be moving beyond just paying their own bills, buying their own food, etc. That will now have an emptiness to it which they will be casting aside. They will more likely decide to focus on development of a particular skill of talent that they are drawn to. This skill could easily be seen as some type of "zen" or "monastic" activity-like book binding or knitting. The process of practice of the skill, when they give them self the time, will be a gateway to experience the "divine". At this stage of evolution, they may not exactly describe it as such, but they will know that in that "space" all the worry, doubt, self guilt often falls away and they exerience renewal. They will attract others who have similar gravitation towards experience of life beyond the "ordinary" as defined by the local consensus culture. In this way, they would be seen as "progressive" by the consensus culture which they are in, in service to, but no longer "of".
Thanks for taking time to read this and all feedback,
I feel that the evolutionary path signatures could still be developed. How about the past karmic signatures developement? Did i miss or misconstrew anything? Thanks
Bradley
looks like i missed including the anger resulting from guilt.
Hi, thanks Lesley and Rad for pointing out my error about Carl Jung (third stage individuated it is). I am still trying to think about a good example of person in the 1st stage individuated and will post if one comes to mind.
Thanks
Deva
Hi Bradley,
Thanks for taking time to read this and all feedback,
I feel that the evolutionary path signatures could still be developed. How about the past karmic signatures developement? Did i miss or misconstrew anything? Thanks
Bradley
************************************************************************
Your analysis, via the specific avenue that you took it that focused on the Soul sacrificing it's own needs in order to take care of the needs of the partner relative to the conditioning come out of the just left behind Consensus State, the 'themes' if the types of work, the crisis's that result because of these dynamics, and how to begin to change this because of the intent to change the Soul's inner relationship to itself, were very well done.
But the analysis only dealt with one possible manifestation of these symbols of the 7th House Pluto, the S.Node in the 6th, it's planetary ruler in the 10th. For example it's possible in these symbols for the Soul to be an extreme masochist, or an extreme sadist. Your analysis did contain to some degree the masochistic archetype because of the Soul's need to sacrifice itself to others needs. If you were to develop these two other themes of extreme masochism, and extreme sadism, how would you then analyze and see the Soul in relationships then ? Not only within their intimate relationships , but the relationship to the world: 10th House ? If these are the way the symbols manifest in such Souls what types of parental environments would we expect the Soul to be born into ?
In terms of evolutionary development, N.Node in the 12th with it's ruler in the 2nd, focus on the archetypal theme of the Soul's INNER RELATIONSHIP TO ITSELF: 2nd house. And how that needs to totally change in the current life, and what that change it about. Correlate this then to the types of relationships formed based on this existing, and then changing inner relationship to him/herself. Within that what is going to constitute CORE MEANING for the individuals life, and the values that will correlate to that meaning, and how that correlates to the inner relationship. In turn how this correlates to how they integrate into the world. Within this how the very nature of the person's existing inner content within them self, from birth, has served as the basis of their judgment systems, and how that content will change equaling new judgment patterns that are based on what ? How is the Pluto polarity point going to correlate to all this ?
Would you like to try to develop this more ? You are advancing well Bradley: your analysis is much fuller and deeper than ever before.
Rad
Rad,
Thanks again for taking time to review and give detailed feedback.
I realize that I have not yet really understood the meaning of sadist and masochist.
I really want to grasp all these elements and aspects of the signature.
Yes, I'll continue to develop this. Thanks for the guidance,
b
Rad,
You said-"For example it's possible in these symbols for the Soul to be an extreme masochist, or an extreme sadist. "
Masochist: ONe who delights in being hurt or humiliated, esp. as a form of sexual perversion.
Sadist: One who derives pleasure from inflicting pain on another, especially as a form of sexual perversion.
As I am attempting to being to understand this, I am asking myself "how could a soul come into this life such that they are born an extreme sadist, extreme masochist, or both an extreme sadomasochist?"
My first conclusion, and the only one that really makes sense is that we are talking about a response of the soul to past incarnations, if it is sexual than we know that it is the soul's response to being sexually abused, manipulated, controlled, tortured, etc.
Is this right? Am I on the right track to beginning to grasp how this pattern begins?
Any support or feedback is greatly appreciated, thanks,
b
Hi Bradley,
Quote from: Bradley J on Nov 04, 2009, 08:21 PM
Rad,
You said-"For example it's possible in these symbols for the Soul to be an extreme masochist, or an extreme sadist. "
Masochist: ONe who delights in being hurt or humiliated, esp. as a form of sexual perversion.
Sadist: One who derives pleasure from inflicting pain on another, especially as a form of sexual perversion.
As I am attempting to being to understand this, I am asking myself "how could a soul come into this life such that they are born an extreme sadist, extreme masochist, or both an extreme sadomasochist?"
My first conclusion, and the only one that really makes sense is that we are talking about a response of the soul to past incarnations, if it is sexual than we know that it is the soul's response to being sexually abused, manipulated, controlled, tortured, etc.
Is this right? Am I on the right track to beginning to grasp how this pattern begins?
Any support or feedback is greatly appreciated, thanks,
b
First, Wolf wrote about this extensively in Pluto 2. So you may wish to read that. To answer your questions: The masochist is a Soul that has a core guilt that they need to 'atone' for. The atonement then creates the messages within the Soul that essentially say I deserve pain, punishment, and crisis in order to atone for that guilt. Once that is the operative dynamic in the Soul then a masochistic reality is created that has many, many applications through out their life and reality. And that can include sexual as well. The sadist has just as much guilt but, rather than desiring to atone for that guilt, they are angry because of that guilt and feel highly victimized as well. Combining that anger linked to guilt and feeling victimized within this then leads to the reality of being a sadist: wanting to get back at something, or someone.
Let me know if this helps you Bradley.
Rad
Rad,
This is very helpful to begin this process of understanding.
I am a VERY slow reader and, even at almost a year now, am still digesting and have not fully read Pluto I. I am hesitant to dive into Pluto II because of Jeffery Wolf Green makes it clear in the intro how to read the book, which you are probably well aware of. But, if you were to suggest reading the relevant material in this case, I'd be open to going ahead to reach the deeper understanding here.
Like Jeffery Wolf Green wrote at the start of Pluto I, paraphrased, it is not a quick read. The material is really reprogramming the cookie cutter archetypes and has really blown me away in a good way.
So, unless you suggest otherwise, I'll continue in the approach I've been with since January past.
Many thanks again,
b
Ohh, and I have started the dvd viewing, again relatively "slow" in this linear time rat race.
Hi Linda,
The bullet point thing won't really do for the purposes of this thread, and learning how to interpret charts from an EA point of view. The bullet points are just summaries, and summaries don't reflect the PROCESS THAT LEAD TO THOSE SUMMARIES. And that is what I would want to see: the process and reasoning behind that process leading to whatever statements that are born of that way of analysis.
Please redo this from the point of view of writing the whole process down.
Rad
Rad,
Thanks for your clear instructions in how to approach chart interpretation from an EA point of view.
PRIOR SOUL INTENTION
Pluto 7th - SN 6th - SN Ruler 10th - Early 1st Stage Individuated
In the early 1st stage individuated evolutionary condition our subject feels a degree of alienation and separateness from the mainstream of society. He is just starting to move away from the consensus by starting to think for himself, contemplating his refusal to go along with the herd, and preferring to choose his own philosophical outlook through exploration and comparison. Yet he continues to play the game and live a lie in order to find acceptance through playing a mainstream role. He feels he has no choice but to play a role, any role, because his sense of individuality is not developed enough so as to be able to choose something conducive to his natural talents. The conclusion he comes to is that he needs to "appear" normal so that he can continue being a part of society, but at the same time internally he feels quite different and lost. He internally criticises normal society; his perception of it makes him quite irritable and angry, and he suffers feelings of meaninglessness and guilt.
He "does the right thing" (10th) by choosing types of work where he can be of service (6th) to others. He completely sacrifices his own personal needs for the sake of his role in society which masks his true feelings of alienation. He unconsciously chooses the type of work where he plays a servile role, because he follows the value judgments of others (7th), and not his own, due to self-effacement (6th) and fear of not being accepted by others (10th). He pursues relationships where the partner plays a dominant role and he plays a submissive role. He perfectly plays back the reality of his partner, and acts like an alter ego. He unites his life with a partner who is slightly more individuated than himself, so that he places the partner up on a pedestal, is of great practical service, and can live his life vicariously through the individuated expression of his partner, because he secretly fears stepping out of the consensus to express who he really is. In fact, he is probably quite confused as to who he really is so continues on with his "plan" (10th), organized and finely tuned (6th) to play the roles deemed as normal by society (1st stage individuated). He continues to compare his views and ideas with many others, and will try on different roles in society, and various personal relationships.
The pressure builds in his relationships to the point where he feels intense guilt because he is not getting his true needs fulfilled, and he starts lashing out at his partner, compulsively pointing out their faults and weaknesses. His relationships are not equal, and severe problems and confrontations begin to develop. Pressures from work or career also mount up, since living a lie goes against his judgments of right and wrong (10th) - and so he judges himself as "wrong" which leads to intense guilt - he fears not being accepted - fears he is not living up to his high expectations of himself - and on top of it all has to face the karmic consequences through several falls from grace.
This massive crisis situation can be taken out on his unsuspecting partner - bringing about a major blow up. Within the SN 6th house karmic signature, and pressure from the generally confused 1st stage individuated condition, he may experience sadomasochism in his relationship. This leads to imbalance in the relationship through guilt - anger - atonement or making amends - dominance and submission - inferiority and superiority - power and powerlessness - criticism and forgiveness. He may find himself in these types of relationships over and over again - until he learns to make adjustments.
Self-sacrificing his personal needs and playing a submissive role in his work or career leads to deep unhappiness and then to guilt and shame because he cannot fit in with society yet feels impelled to play the game. There is added conflict (7th/10th square) because while he strives for success and wishes to play an authoritative role in his career, and may struggle to take the lead (10th) in his relationships, he generally feels impotent, inadequate, guilty and angry (6th) because his relationships are unequal and unbalanced (7th). The pressure builds - the SN ruler (10th) is in a first-quarter square to natal Pluto (7th) - and he must find new ways to establish his evolutionary purpose by evolving through new types of career and relationships. Therefore, there could very well be a high turnover in these areas, so that the creative new ways of being in relationships and in career enable him to slowly move forward in his journey.
CURRENT SOUL INTENTION
PPP 1st - NN 12th - NN Ruler 2nd
During times of crisis, such as divorce, sadomasochism or fall from grace, where he finds himself alone, he finds nothing can work except a spiritual perspective and so he develops his relationship with the Divine. When the crisis situation blows over, his commitment to the spiritual point of view may fade. But more and more crises lead him back to lessons of forgiveness, tolerance and respect for the imperfections others "¦ and through transformation another picture slowly begins to unfold in his life.
Similarly, confrontations in relationship which result in separation or divorce lead to him being alone, where through intense self-analysis, he is forced to make his own decisions, to supply his own needs, and initiate his own actions. He analyses his relationship dynamics through his x-ray mind and since his needs are not being fulfilled and he is not quite as successful as he "should" be in his career, he progressively learns to find creative answers within himself. In atoning for his guilt and anger, which naturally takes place while he is alone contemplating his life, he develops some courage to start to think for himself (1st), and to take responsibility (10th) for himself. Slowly he begins to follow impulses and attractions to other people and new directions (1st) through which he enjoys a newfound sense of freedom and adventure.
As his individuality starts to strengthen, he begins to seek new paths and directions (such as exploring new philosophies, developing areas that awaken his personal talents, and following instinctual attractions to new partners) which allow him to learn more about who he truly is. As he wishes to continue to be of service to others, he is able to apply his personal talents, resources, and natural abilities to altruistic work in the service of others ... and this brings positive change to his career path also. Where once he felt directionless and meaninglessness in his social role and in the types of partners he chose, he is now seeing more and more of the bigger picture. Where he used to give all of his service out to others, he is learning to pay some attention to himself and his own needs, like when to give and when not to give, and when to be of service and when not to be of service. The development of a holistic and clearer understanding of himself promotes discrimination in the choice of career and relationships. He becomes less hard on himself, less judgmental, and learns to be kinder to himself. He learns to set proper priorities in his relationships where he balances time for himself with time spent with his partner. Philosophically, he is developing faith that somehow things will work out.
Through disastrous previous choices in career, that resulted in stagnation and non-fulfillment, the stresses of which infiltrated his personal relationships, he was forced to find new ways to express a more proper work function in society (10th) that realistically reflected his natural talents (2nd) and not the unconscious career choices brought about through fear of living a lie. Through the development of the PPP 1st he gains more choice, courage and "self"-consciousness. He enjoys the freedom of being able to choose something for himself, and not always having to work so hard for others. As the 10th/2nd Nodal Rulers and the SN 6th form a harmonious grand trine, the transition to see himself as his own symbol of self-reliance and transformation naturally leads to other directions of work or career. The easy transition gives him a sense of self-esteem (2nd) and therefore more trust and faith in the larger forces at work (12th). As the old Pluto dynamic continues to evolve, he continues to desire to serve others and may wish to undertake philanthropic or healing work (usually in a mainstream institution), the nature of which allows the beginnings of a relationship with the Source to very slowly emerge. Now that he is able to make new choices in relationships, he may follow attractions to others who are more spiritual or self-reliant, and learns to value both himself and others.
Where he started out as quite fearful, angry and guilty, he now is learning to trust and flow with the currents of life. He learns to forgive his partners for their weaknesses, and chooses partners who are expressing the courage to create their own lives, just like he is. The type of work he chooses becomes a little more individualized, especially where the work is conducive to his natural talents. Through intense analysis (6th) and rationality (7th) he learns his proper work function in society (10th) which serves his own soul growth through his freedom to make choices for himself (1st), as well as serve others in altruistic service (12th), that comes about through the development of his own talents and resources (2nd) and all these improved areas bring about inner and outer balance (7th). He learns to experience himself in a more complete way through expanding his focus (inductive logic) to an holistic view and thus improves many areas of his life.
~ ~ ~
I deleted my 2nd last post, the one with the bullets. I hope to overcome the problem of too many disjointed facts and not enough process/reasoning with more practice. I really appreciate your guidance Rad :-*
Hi Linda,
BRAVO ! It is a true joy to experience your own development and evolution in EA. You are progressing really, really well Linda. In your analysis you focused on the masochistic dimension of this paradigm, i.e. the S.Node in the 6th. And you did a good job of it. However, it's also just as possible for this paradigm to be sadistic where the anger manifest through feeling 'victimized', N.Node in the 12th, by society: the S.Node planetary ruler in the 10th, and the people in that society: 7th House Pluto. I think it would be a good idea if you created an analysis of this paradigm through the lens of the sadist. What kinds of relationships then ? What is the individuals orientation to them ? What is the person's relationship to the world ? What is the evolutionary / karmic antidote to feeling 'victimized' that is then the determinant of the sadism ? Clue: via the planetary ruler of the 6th House S.Node in the 10th that would be accepting the responsibility in his own actions. This would then demand that he inwardly determine through self-analysis the causes of the 'guilt' that he is born with, and compounds in his current life actions. What is the karmic/ evolutionary antidote to that guilt as symbolized in his 12th House N.Node ? And how does that then affect his inner relationship to himself: the planetary ruler of the 12th House N.Node in the 2nd House ?
You are doing real good Linda, keep going !!
Rad
Rad and all,
Here's an "amendment" to the previous post. I have only begun development of masochist and sadist extremes here from past perspective, not yet going into evolutionary path side. Like I said, I have stuck with just Pluto I rereads and days of letting it all "sink in" and process.
Thanks in advance for your time and review,
b
Pluto 7th/South Node 6th/ruler 10th cont.
Extreme Masochist and Sadist Soul Types:
In addition to all the previously discussed patterns of this signature, there are more considerations to keep in mind: The possibilities of the soul that is born is an extreme masochist or extreme sadist.
If the s/he is an extreme masochist, we would see extremes in the balance of roles played out as follows. This type would be attracting others into their life that would naturally play a dominant role in relationships(work, social, and intimate). He/she would feel a strong need to go out of their way to serve, assist, help, and carry out the "other's needs". She/he would also, without thinking, fully share in the blame and "mistakes", and even claim sole responsibility of things that have nothing to do with their actions. They would receive punishment without hesitation or protest. The heaviness of the internal guilt and not yet conscious actions to atone for the guilt are coming out in these distorted ways. This person has lost perspective on balanced roles in relationships and is allowing heavy criticism, blame, and abuse to come from their own self and others. Again, this past unconscious guilt has led to their sense of being "unworthy" of being treated better than this. These are clues to tell us that clearly s/he has yet to accept the "mistakes" of their karmic past. This extreme masochist type does exactly what the "˜other' expects of them in the face of repeated physical, mental, and emotional abuse because deep down inside they "˜deserve it'. This is unconscious acts of atonement of unconscious burden of guilt unresolved. Consciously, s/he does not believe that they even deserve better than repeated abuse. Others(7th pluto) will be the ones to tell them otherwise, but in these extreme cases, s/he will still go back to the receiving abuse pattern in atonement. You may here such statements to friends like, "I know, I know, I shouldn't let him/her do that", but they are partly saying this out of need of friend/other to hear it, but don't fully believe their own words.
Rad, could we expect in these situations that the soul actually did do something that is "awful"- like in past life operating a guillotine(6/10), or assisting with public executions like lynching or hangings(6th/10)? ..a service (6th) carrying out social punishment(10th) to others(7th)?
Now, on the flip side to this, is the soul that responds to the guilt with anger. In this situation, the s/he does not believe that they need to atone for this inner guilt, yet the guilt is so there. Instead of feeling unworthy, they feel so worthy that any trigger of being victimized by others opens the gates to this inner anger and rage. This is the extreme of the sadistic soul type. In their current life/ s/he will sense this guilt, yet decidedly see their self as worthy of fair treatment. From the current life perspective, they see no visible reason why THEY should be feeling guilty. These types are very quick to get angry and frustrated in the face of ANY blame or accusation coming at them. Statements like "I didn't do it" or "Why you always blame me?" or "I don't deserve this shit" reveal the underlying attitude. This anger response coming from extreme guilt within, comes forth as a lashing out in anger at others-it could be in the workplace(10th), as much as it would be with friends and family (7th). In this case, we should see the obvious clues of who/what s/he is talking about to reveal a misplaced response to unresolved guilt. Also, in this extreme sadist soul type, expect to see threads of projected blame and guilt coming out with these angry lashing outs at others.
In both cases of extreme masochist and sadist types, we'd expect the early childhood/home life to have extremes of abuse. With the masochist, there would be an early/initial experience of the burden they are to their parents/family. This creates right from the start, a sense of guilt for even being born. S/he could spend years or even the rest of this lifetime "˜making up for being a burden' Except the extreme masochist with this signature to come across as extremely apologetic for everything(pluto 7th/sn 6th), even just entering your home and basically for breathing-"˜being alive'.
With the extreme sadist type, they respond to this sense of being a burden and being abused with anger and rage. Childhood would daily carry experiences of "˜undeservingly' being abusively blamed-being a victim.
Rad, is it true that circumstances could be exactly the same with these two extremes-it is just the soul's response that is different?
The sadist type carries so much anger and rage from these early experiences of "being victimized undeservingly" that any hint of another beginning to blame them can trigger this anger. Especially anyone who is perceived in the dominant authority role (10th) who holds that power and begins to criticize him/her, it would be met with this anger. This extreme sadistic type would carry strong judgements (10th/7th square) about appropriate behavior of others and would react with anger to those in their life who cross this line.
Hi Bradley,
Quote from: Bradley J on Nov 15, 2009, 11:21 AM
Rad, could we expect in these situations that the soul actually did do something that is "awful"- like in past life operating a guillotine(6/10), or assisting with public executions like lynching or hangings(6th/10)? ..a service (6th) carrying out social punishment(10th) to others(7th)?
**************************************************************************
The issue of guilt is the determinant in either the masochist or the sadist. And there are always two causes of that guilt. One cause can be exactly as you have stated: actual actions or behaviors that are NATURALLY WRONG that then create NATURAL GUILT. If I throw my kids out the window it is naturally wrong. And I will feel naturally guilty. And the other cause of guilt is called 'learned' guilt which is based on standards of judgments that have nothing to do with Natural Laws, when violated, create natural guilt. The sources and causes of this learned guilt can be extremely diverse. For example, I could put myself into a monastery where the standards of judgments are based on all kinds of spiritual 'should be's' that I can not conform too, or do. I thus create an internal judgment upon myself that is negative in nature because there must be something wrong with me in that I can not be a reflection of the the 'should be's' that I am comparing myself too. And, thus, I need to 'atone' for this guilt.
The bottom line when dealing with others whose Souls have determined to examine the causes of guilt within them, as the current paradigm that we are working with, is to understand the differences in the 'learned' guilt versus the guilt that is natural in nature because of violating natural laws themselves.
In the paradigm we are working with now, the N.Node being in the 12th, the Soul is desiring a 'healing' of these past lives that are being focused on that connect to guilt. And the nature of that healing is first to learn to discriminate, the S.Node in the 6th, between the two causes of the guilt, and then to realize the natural truth that all Souls have done things that have created guilt within them. No of us are 'blameless', so to speak. And then to learn from our past mistakes so that we hopefully do not repeat them. In the paradigm we are using, with the planetary ruler of the 12th in the 2nd, this then directly correlates to the person's inner relationship to themselves. We need to remember that the inner relationship we have with ourselves creates it's own resonate magnetism that is the determinant of those that we then 'attract' into our lives. The masochist will thus attract the sadist, and the sadist will thus attract the masochist.
**************************************************************************
Rad, is it true that circumstances could be exactly the same with these two extremes-it is just the soul's response that is different?
************************************************************************
Yes. And the difference is how those circumstances are PERCEIVED: how they are interpreted.
Real good work Bradley. Good for you.
Rad
Ive been thinking just about first stage individuated, and trying to observe other people that seem to fit that condition. Here are some observations:
My relative works for a financial investment corp in nyc. She has a whole lot of stuff in the 7th squaring her nodes, including Uranus. She lives in a consensus environment with people of consensus values. She however has read books that are of the individuated nature (michael pollin for example). She cannot openly share her views with other people because she fears rejection from her friends.
The town I have lived in has a high contingency of second and third individuated souls- Olympia washington. I know one soul who comes from a very conservative family. He himself was very active as a youth in a right wing religious organization. He argues his views on Israel/Palestine ardently with everyone. He surrounds himself with people who are politically more ;liberal; than himself. He eats with them, lives with them. I observe that this soul has consciously chosen to be in a second individuated environment in order to aid in the undoing of his old thought patterns.
His mind has been opening slowly- and that is having a profound impact on how he relates to consensus culture. He increasingly feels more alienated and different around the consensus people he used to associate with. In a previous life, a lot of evolution must have happened for him to be in this situation.
In terms of famous ppl, here are some guesses:
John Lennon? Nah, maybe he was too radical for first stage.
Yusuf Islam (cat stevens)? I dont know if he was ever in consensus state in this life to tell you the truth.
Chenea O*Conner?
Tom Cruz? He is openly affiliated with a very radical organization (Scientology) which itself is a highly manipulative, though insightful religion. Im pretty certain that Scientology is not for the consensus state. He gets a lot of critisizm and judgment for his affiliation with this organization. I can imagine what its like for him- with everyone judging his choice to have chosen a subversive spiritual path. Of all guess I feel most confident about this guy. He clearly lives a very internal alienated life as a result of all this.
Hi Ari,
What interesting questions you've posed about the evolutionary conditions of so many different people. I'm willing to throw in my two cents regarding how I see them, and I hope others will add their perspectives as well, because I personally find it so interesting to observe and correlate the evolutionary stages, and to hear others' reasoning for their own views. I am so grateful for this open and mutually respectful forum.
To me, your relative who works in NYC sounds very much in the beginning of the 1st stage Individuated: she indulges her true nature in private but still compensates for security reasons when in public.
The person from the right-wing religious organization is not yet Individuated, to my mind, because religion, as Wolf taught, is for the consensus. The argumentativeness or assertions of his own views, to me, reflect the 3rd stage Consensus; but the fact that he's surrounding himself with others of different perspectives, to me, suggests that he is preparing to move into the 1st stage Individuated condition, perhaps later in this life or in a life soon to come.
In terms of the famous people you mentioned, I personally would put John Lennon on the cusp of 2nd stage Individuated (these Souls refuse to integrate into society at all, and live completely on their own terms; they have a lot of anger at the consensus within them) and the 3rd stage Individuated, where the musical and literary genius start to come in. By the end of his life he was singing about unity and peace, which was a far cry from the more violent tendencies he displayed in youth and young adulthood.
Sinead O'Connor is someone that I think to be in the 2nd stage Individuated evolutionary condition: a traumatized Soul who rejected fame, fought openly against a consensus institution and was reviled the world over for doing so. Although she did re-integrate into the Catholic Church, that was done on her own terms, and she is still not recognized by the hierarchy there as holding any position of import or consequence: she is still an outsider.
Tom Cruise is such a puzzle, to me. Scientology is indeed not the mainstream, but it IS an organization, and that to me suggests a consensus Soul who needs the support and security of a group of like-minded others around him. When the Soul begins to think for itself, it moves into the Individuated condition; he seems a parrot of Scientology's views. If Scientology pursued him to have a famous face on the organization, and he went along willingly, that's a 3rd stage Consensus thing, to me.
I'm just offering my own ideas, Ari...I hope it's okay to have put them forth here.
Love and blessings to you,
Lesley
PPP 1st - NN 12th - NN Ruler 2nd - Early 1st Stage Individuated
Rad said: I think it would be a good idea if you created an analysis of this paradigm through the lens of the sadist.
It is possible for our subject to be a sadist as a result of the anger and guilt born out of the conflict of having to conform to society and deeply resenting it. The imbalance within himself leads to sadistic behaviours such as explosiveness, tyranny and compulsiveness.
The kinds of relationships he would encounter would be defined in terms of "control" where masochism and sadism are found in the individuals, and the two combined forming a sadomasochistic relationship. The messages will be around deserving pain, punishment and crisis. His orientation to relationships is defined in terms of "power" and "powerlessness". He plays the dominant role by being able to play back the reality of his partner which leads to emotional control and imposing his values, beliefs and nature onto his partner.
His partner plays the inferior role and relies on him for self-validation, while he becomes the god of his partner's reality and plays the superior role. He reduces his partner to nothing and is exhilarated by the emotional distress, and psychological or physical suffering he is inflicting. He derives pleasure from the power that places his partner below him.
He compulsively overly identifies with the aspect of himself in a "normal" relationship (7th) in a "successful" career (10th) that makes him "lots of money" (2nd) in order to induce a sense of individuality and meaning. Since he is resisting a relationship of surrender to the Source, he builds a fantasy (12th) which he totally believes in around the "perfect" idealised partner (7th). He is trying to play the game by creating a "normal" type of relationship in the eyes of his society friends which leads to a tyrannical attitude toward his partner.
He may feel extremely anxious when he perceives his partner is not playing the fantasy role that he has unconsciously created. If his partner does not behave in the correct way or is not adhering to the routines (6th), rules (10th), and idealized conduct (12th) that he has set down, he could use cruelty, persecution or judgment for the purpose of establishing dominance in his relationship.
He may humiliate or demean his partner in the presence of others. He may restrict his partner's autonomy and control his children (2nd) unusually harshly. His domination leads to excessive criticism, persecution and judgment of his partner's weaknesses which are really a projection of his own weaknesses.
As part of his fantasy he would desire to "make lots of money" (2nd). In the early 1st stage individuated evolutionary condition, and in resisting a relationship to the Source (12th), he completely believes and identifies himself as the resource for making money. He forms relationships with the right people in the right circles who will further his power and status in the world.
He builds a career (10th) with great discipline, ambition and meticulousness (6th). As he is living beyond his means, and the abundance does not bring him happiness or emotional security, this fantasy collapses, resulting in the loss of his career. The fantasy did not equal the reality.
His relationship to the world is to appear and function "normally" in society yet at home he is the sadist. He attempts to gratify his most base desires while ignoring or completely suppressing his conscience. He is amused by, or takes pleasure in, the psychological or physical suffering of others. He could secretly seek out pornography or prostitutes who are his easy victims.
The emotional shock of his relationship ending and his career collapsing lead to an implosion or breakdown which forces him to realize the basis of his fantasy (12th), to atone for his behaviour, to feel remorse and to enter self-reflection (6th), to re-evaluate his life, where he was coming from, and for what reasons. The S. Node ruler in the 10th would lead him to accept responsibility for his own actions. This would then lead to analysis of the causes of the guilt that he is born with and which is compounded in his current life actions.
The antidote to the guilt is symbolized in his 12th N. Node by learning forgiveness of himself and others for shortcomings or failings. The light of truth illuminates the reality of his life situation and forces him to consider that some other power is operating. His inner relationship to himself transforms into a new way of relating to himself, to others and to reality.
Linda,
It is possible for our subject to be a sadist as a result of the anger and guilt born out of the conflict of having to conform to society and deeply resenting it. The imbalance within himself leads to sadistic behaviours such as explosiveness, tyranny and compulsiveness.
**************************************************************************
We must remember that one of the archetypal dynamics within the 6th House is one of critical self analysis because this archetypal dynamic is also linked with another one within the 6th House called self improvement. In order to improve oneself one must become aware of one's short comings, areas within us, that need to focused on in order to do something about them in order to improve or 'perfect' oneself. When this is then combined with the 10th House that archetypal dynamic of judgments then occurs. Judgment itself in natural to consciousness for it's through the vehicle of judgments that we learn about the nature of anything, of life itself. The issue in not judgments of themselves but the CONTENT that is being accessed and used for form the basis of judgments. Are the judgments coming from Natural Laws, or are the judgments coming from man made laws ? So when these archetypes combine we have an individual who is highly critical of themselves through the inner judgments of themselves. This exiting inner orientation to them self creates it's own inner magnetism or vibration that in turn serves as the determinant of the types of circumstances, and the people in those circumstances, that reflect this inner relationship to the person them self.
This then has set in motion a series of lives in which the Soul has created circumstances and people who have appeared to be highly critical and judgmental of the person which can include the persons own parents, 10th House planetary ruler of the 6th House S.Node, and all kinds of people in authority as the person becomes and adult. This can of course include situations where their employer, and co-workers, have also been highly critical of the person's own short comings. As this goes on for a series of lifetimes the Soul then can feel 'victimized' by these circumstances because there is no inner awareness that they them self are responsible for creating these circumstances. Over a series of lifetimes this creates an accumulated rage and anger now combined with being a victim that, in turn, causes the Soul to want to 'get back', to get even, to take this inner rage that has been generated by being a victim out on others. This then creates the sadist.
The rest of your analysis Linda is very, very good. Good for you !
Rad
Lesley, it is more than ok. If you dont share your ea perspective, then who will ???
thanks for your response.
Quote from: Rad on Nov 17, 2009, 08:16 AM
Over a series of lifetimes this creates an accumulated rage and anger now combined with being a victim that, in turn, causes the Soul to want to 'get back', to get even, to take this inner rage that has been generated by being a victim out on others. This then creates the sadist.
Rad,
How can wanting to "get back", to get even, to take this inner rage out on others, relate to Natural Law?
Is wanting to "get back" a natural response in nature, such as the human instinct of self-preservation?
Thanks,
Linda
Linda,
How can wanting to "get back", to get even, to take this inner rage out on others, relate to Natural Law?
Is wanting to "get back" a natural response in nature, such as the human instinct of self-preservation?
Thanks,
Linda
*************************************************************************
It doesn't relate to natural law at all. This sort of thing is a reflection of perverting natural laws that in turn has perverted consciousness in humans in general. This is a 'distorted' reaction to the fact that consciousness, in general on this planet, has become utterly distorted and perverted going back about 8,000 years now. Masochism and sadism are also not natural in any way. Nor is superiority or inferiority, and so and so on. Even you words about self preservation, in natural law, was rooted in the GROUP. Individual survival was rooted in group survival. The natural law that is the basis of that is to give, share, and include. Once that got perverted into self-interest and exclusion this then became the basis, the cause, of every other perversion to natural consciousness.
In the paradigm that we are working with now we must understand the CONTEXT in order to interpret correctly. And the EXISTING context for most humans, in most cultures, country's, etc is defined by the perversion to natural law. This is how most humans live now. As a result, we must interpret the EA paradigm that we are working with in our example in this way.
Rad
Thank you Rad for your response.
I'm looking forward to the next assignment.
Linda ;D
Hi Ari, Bradley, Linda, Wendy, Stephen or any one else that is interested in this thread ,
Do you guys want to start another practice chart now ? Let me know if we all feel done with the last one, and if you want to proceed ...........
Rad
Just about ready to post the evolutionary path development from previous/current assignment, based on your suggestions.
and, yes, starting another chart sounds great, too. I'm open to still developing this more if you see fit; be posting tonight or friday night.
b
Bradley,
Good that you want to follow up with another post on that paradigm. Will wait to receive it and then we can move forwards with our little group with a new example to work with.
Rad
That sounds good to me.
Linda ;D
Hi Everyone,
I'll have to come back to these assignments...alot going on right now.
Goddess Bless,
Stephen
That sounds good to me.
Eventually, at a potent evolutionary juncture in their life, they will find themselves alone. Why did I end up alone? They have ended up alone to begin to realize who they are.t. To learn that they alone are responsible for the fulfillment of their own needs. They will need to learn that they are not actually fulfilling their own needs thru fulfilling others/partners needs. They are going to need to pull away from the never ending "list" and let all the responsibilities of the world dissolve into the ethers. In this quietude, deep in their soul they will feel renewal and connection to something, something beyond words; certainly beyond descriptive understanding of the local consensus culture. In this calm, in this nothingness and everything, all their worry, self doubt, guilt may dissipate like a fog clearing. Guilt of how they acted in relationship, how they made others feel, etc...
HOW will s/he begin such a journey of transformation of their self and, as a result, their life? This journey starts with changing their own inner relationship to self.
Their inner relationship to self needs to change for at least three clear reasons(given the known information): First, although s/he may not use these words, their soul has just evolved out of the consensus reality. This means that their previous inner relationship to self was shaped by value set that is not the same as the essence of who they are as an individual-and this is where they are - needing to begin to realize the essence of who they are and what the resulting values are with that deep self knowing.
And, second, their previous inner self we can see was greatly under the influence of others ideas, values, and judgements which would have most likely clouded the core of what really truly resonates for them alone. This second reason would be more true for the masochistic type(is that true?). (I'm suggesting this to be true because of the archetypes nature to "˜take what is dished out"˜ without standing up for what they are about).
Third, changing their relationship to their inner self is the start of reaching ultimate truths about their self(nn r.2/nn12). This journey, as a response to personal crises, will lead to the new self awarenesses, new self realizations and self adjustments that potentially can dissolve the guilt, release self judgement , and integrate the unloved rejected parts of self.
As eluded to above, part of this change in their relationship to self is about narrowing the scope of their vision to focus on what is coming forth from thyself at the root level. (nnr 2) This will lead into realizations of the ultimate truth of who they are, which are steps forward on the journey of self discovery(nnr2-->nn12-->ppp1). Also, this change is about realizing what it means to be one's own self sustaining resource(2nd). Again, seeing the pluto 7th/sn6th, we know that the past karmic pattern of sustainment was wrapped up in the energetic strings of serving within relationships and the dynamics within that. And one more point here, coming from consensus into individuated e.s., the past karmic definition of self sustaining and having resources was defined by things in the physical world. Having plenty of money, a great home, etc. are no longer going to leave this person with a deep sense of inner fulfillment. This truth will be very obvious right away revealed in the reason such a person is coming to an astrologer when asked why they came and what they want out of their reading. They may not say it exactly, yet what they are wanting is a deeper sense of who they really are. Part of the de-conditioning and reprograming here is that they feel guilty for even having such a reason as their first desire for coming. (is that true? sn. 6/r10/just left consensus)
As we see this person begin to get in touch with the essence of who they are, become more self sufficient, we are going to see a big change in the relationships that are formed and maintained. They will be attracting others who are also equally self sufficient. This is going to greatly transform the nature of relationship and henceforth transform the individual's sense of what it means to serve/support the needs of another. Having come to a place of redefining their values increasingly in accord with both their evolutionary state and their own essence, s/he begins to form relationships with others that have similar values. Attracting others that now have a higher level of self knowledge and self sufficiency means moving out of dominant/submissive roles in relationships and more true equality. Having attracted these types of individuals reaching their own deeper awareness of what really holds value in life means relationships moving farther from a sense of stability based on material possessions and desires met and more into mature relationships in the sense of each having self stability from self fulfillment of one's own emotional needs.
This changing inner relationship to self is going to lead into learning to judge according to their own intentions(nnr.2 activates nn12). Lets remind ourselves that this person is coming from a place where the definition of "˜perfect"˜ has been defined by consensus reality. NOW, while rejecting the consensus definition of "˜perfect', they will be developing a new idealized standard of conduct which is based on the core of their own current values. This creates a situation where they have the potential to learn a new type of judgement, "ultimate judgement", which is based on intent. Reaching a place of realizing their own root essence, they can now see the root intent behind their own actions. This will then transform their own judgements of self and others. This process will begin to dissolve the built sense of failure and harsh self judgements that stem from judgement system created by consensus reality in combination with their inner guilt from the past. Having established a stronger sense of self, of own truths and values then allows them to see thru the delusions of misplaced critical self judgement. Now, being in this space and having attracted others of like values, we see the healing that can happen thru this journey of realizing the ultimate intent coming from within. With relationships supportive and healthier, it will be possible to step out of actions in relationships that came out of this unconscious need to atone for the guilt they carry. The guilt is possible to dissolve because they have support, yes, and also because they are no longer making self judgements based on results and others responses; instead on their own inner knowledge of the root intent behind their own actions. In this we see the north node realized as they have now developed this ultimate judgement based on a newly developed "˜ideal standard of conduct'.
For the extreme masochist type, we see a great moment possible as they could see thru the fog of how they have allowed themselves to be de-valued because of their own lack of self worth. Even having somewhat realized their own essence, they could begin to judge the actions of the sadist type they are/have been in relationship based on the intent of their actions in context of a developing "˜ideal standard of conduct'. This leads into the masochist type to begin to be in a place of self empowerment thru clear judgements. It is not that the masochistic type needs to reach a state of "˜perfection"˜ in which they feel completely "˜washed of their own sins'. It is more about having established enough self worth to see clearly the intent of actions of those they are in relationship to and to know when those actions are not healthy for their own self at a core level.
For all this to be possible, beyond just knowing the essence of their self and becoming self sustaining, this person will need time alone for such inner processing to occur. Time to retreat, time to withdraw, and time for reflection is essential for the continuing development of discovering who they are. (nn12-->ppp1). To begin to expand their self awareness, they need this time in their days and weeks to retreat, time and space to begin the letting go process of all the "˜crap"˜ they carry with them. This statement is very true for any soul with this signature. Eventually, thru self discovery and self development, what will birth forth is a new sense of "˜right"˜ service which results in renewed fulfillment in being of service to others and the world. The role of service they fill in the world and to those around them would now be filled with a greater ultimate meaning to self and continue the evolution of the soul. Having achieved a balance in relationships, service, and work with time for self, they will continue down the path to self discovery which will continue to transform the rest of their life. And, of course, they will be known by friends and acquaintances as a great listener and natural counselor because of how this reflect they are listening to their own self and value their own self.
One final thought, is to consider the aspect dynamics here. The natural trine between the 2nd and 10th reveals the ease in which newly established values become judgements. And the natural T-square of the 10th to the 1st/7th reveals that even as they begin to establish new judgements, these new judgements will still be a challenge in relationships and to the self. The north node, naturally in polarity to the sn6th, and at the midpoint to the rulers of north and south node via sextile, we see the importance of ultimately judging based on intent, which will shed light on patterns of over criticalness, as seen in south node behaviors. The natural inconjuct(which i measured as waxing) of north node to pluto reveals that the individual will most definitely reach a crisis point in which, thru mental analysis, the opportunity comes forth to reframe their security needs from others in context to the ultimate truth of their own essence. (nn12 sextile ruler second).
Thanks for taking the time to read. Any feedback is greatly appreciated. I tried to take into account all the points you brought up Rad. Let me know which ones could have been developed more, etc. if you wish.
Blessings,
b
thanks for waiting
HI Bradley,
Quote from: Bradley J on Nov 22, 2009, 12:33 AM
Eventually, at a potent evolutionary juncture in their life, they will find themselves alone. Why did I end up alone? They have ended up alone to begin to realize who they are.t. To learn that they alone are responsible for the fulfillment of their own needs. They will need to learn that they are not actually fulfilling their own needs thru fulfilling others/partners needs. They are going to need to pull away from the never ending "list" and let all the responsibilities of the world dissolve into the ethers. In this quietude, deep in their soul they will feel renewal and connection to something, something beyond words; certainly beyond descriptive understanding of the local consensus culture. In this calm, in this nothingness and everything, all their worry, self doubt, guilt may dissipate like a fog clearing. Guilt of how they acted in relationship, how they made others feel, etc...
*********************************************************************
It will dissipate through an active self reflection, the ruler of the 6th House S.Node in the 6th, upon all the collected messages, both from external and internal sources, that have lead too and define their existing sense of who they are: their egocentric identity. In this reflection they will discover how and why they created these messages by becoming responsible for what they have created. The underlying inner causes within their Soul that have served as the determinants to those messages, of the very circumstances that they have created in which these messages leading to their sense of personal identity has occurred. This self knowledge gained through such active inner reflection is that, in the end, allows for the dissolving to take place, and brand new messages about who they are to begin.
****************************************************************************
HOW will s/he begin such a journey of transformation of their self and, as a result, their life? This journey starts with changing their own inner relationship to self.
Their inner relationship to self needs to change for at least three clear reasons(given the known information): First, although s/he may not use these words, their soul has just evolved out of the consensus reality. This means that their previous inner relationship to self was shaped by value set that is not the same as the essence of who they are as an individual-and this is where they are - needing to begin to realize the essence of who they are and what the resulting values are with that deep self knowing.
And, second, their previous inner self we can see was greatly under the influence of others ideas, values, and judgements which would have most likely clouded the core of what really truly resonates for them alone. This second reason would be more true for the masochistic type(is that true?). (I'm suggesting this to be true because of the archetypes nature to "˜take what is dished out"˜ without standing up for what they are about).
*********************************************************************
The masochist has indeed internalized these messages to the point of 'believing', yes. The sadist also has internalized them but, at the same time, is in denial of that which has been internalized and thus is the cause of the inner rage, and 'wanting to get back' at others due to feeling victimized by others. The cause for both has been a core of guilt that one is atoning for, the masochist, and the other, the sadist who wants to get back at others, to make others hurt, because of the anger triggered by the guilt. For each of them they both have to inwardly determine the causes of the guilt in order to have any real meaningful change within themselves that leads to a new inner relationship with themselves, and others. In that reflection they both must determine the difference between learned guilt based on the projected judgments that emanate from man made laws, and that can also mean inner projected self judgments as well based on those made made laws, versus natural laws in which a natural guilt emanates from. None of us can eliminate or dissolve the guilt that has occurred due to violations of natural laws. We just learn from it and carry on. The guilt that has accumulated for both the masochist and sadist based on made made laws is that which needs to be dissolved and eliminated so that a new inner relationship can take place in each.
****************************************************************************
Third, changing their relationship to their inner self is the start of reaching ultimate truths about their self(nn r.2/nn12). This journey, as a response to personal crises, will lead to the new self awarenesses, new self realizations and self adjustments that potentially can dissolve the guilt, release self judgement , and integrate the unloved rejected parts of self.
As eluded to above, part of this change in their relationship to self is about narrowing the scope of their vision to focus on what is coming forth from thyself at the root level. (nnr 2) This will lead into realizations of the ultimate truth of who they are, which are steps forward on the journey of self discovery(nnr2-->nn12-->ppp1). Also, this change is about realizing what it means to be one's own self sustaining resource(2nd). Again, seeing the pluto 7th/sn6th, we know that the past karmic pattern of sustainment was wrapped up in the energetic strings of serving within relationships and the dynamics within that. And one more point here, coming from consensus into individuated e.s., the past karmic definition of self sustaining and having resources was defined by things in the physical world. Having plenty of money, a great home, etc. are no longer going to leave this person with a deep sense of inner fulfillment. This truth will be very obvious right away revealed in the reason such a person is coming to an astrologer when asked why they came and what they want out of their reading. They may not say it exactly, yet what they are wanting is a deeper sense of who they really are. Part of the de-conditioning and reprograming here is that they feel guilty for even having such a reason as their first desire for coming. (is that true? sn. 6/r10/just left consensus)
*************************************************************************
For the masochist type yes because the masochist is inwardly defined by the thoughts of ' I deserve pain, punishment, and crisis' where deserve becomes the determinant of feeling guilty for seeking out help.
***************************************************************************
As we see this person begin to get in touch with the essence of who they are, become more self sufficient, we are going to see a big change in the relationships that are formed and maintained. They will be attracting others who are also equally self sufficient. This is going to greatly transform the nature of relationship and henceforth transform the individual's sense of what it means to serve/support the needs of another. Having come to a place of redefining their values increasingly in accord with both their evolutionary state and their own essence, s/he begins to form relationships with others that have similar values. Attracting others that now have a higher level of self knowledge and self sufficiency means moving out of dominant/submissive roles in relationships and more true equality. Having attracted these types of individuals reaching their own deeper awareness of what really holds value in life means relationships moving farther from a sense of stability based on material possessions and desires met and more into mature relationships in the sense of each having self stability from self fulfillment of one's own emotional needs.
This changing inner relationship to self is going to lead into learning to judge according to their own intentions(nnr.2 activates nn12). Lets remind ourselves that this person is coming from a place where the definition of "˜perfect"˜ has been defined by consensus reality. NOW, while rejecting the consensus definition of "˜perfect', they will be developing a new idealized standard of conduct which is based on the core of their own current values. This creates a situation where they have the potential to learn a new type of judgement, "ultimate judgement", which is based on intent. Reaching a place of realizing their own root essence, they can now see the root intent behind their own actions. This will then transform their own judgements of self and others. This process will begin to dissolve the built sense of failure and harsh self judgements that stem from judgement system created by consensus reality in combination with their inner guilt from the past. Having established a stronger sense of self, of own truths and values then allows them to see thru the delusions of misplaced critical self judgement. Now, being in this space and having attracted others of like values, we see the healing that can happen thru this journey of realizing the ultimate intent coming from within. With relationships supportive and healthier, it will be possible to step out of actions in relationships that came out of this unconscious need to atone for the guilt they carry. The guilt is possible to dissolve because they have support, yes, and also because they are no longer making self judgements based on results and others responses; instead on their own inner knowledge of the root intent behind their own actions. In this we see the north node realized as they have now developed this ultimate judgement based on a newly developed "˜ideal standard of conduct'.
For the extreme masochist type, we see a great moment possible as they could see thru the fog of how they have allowed themselves to be de-valued because of their own lack of self worth. Even having somewhat realized their own essence, they could begin to judge the actions of the sadist type they are/have been in relationship based on the intent of their actions in context of a developing "˜ideal standard of conduct'. This leads into the masochist type to begin to be in a place of self empowerment thru clear judgements. It is not that the masochistic type needs to reach a state of "˜perfection"˜ in which they feel completely "˜washed of their own sins'. It is more about having established enough self worth to see clearly the intent of actions of those they are in relationship to and to know when those actions are not healthy for their own self at a core level.
For all this to be possible, beyond just knowing the essence of their self and becoming self sustaining, this person will need time alone for such inner processing to occur. Time to retreat, time to withdraw, and time for reflection is essential for the continuing development of discovering who they are. (nn12-->ppp1). To begin to expand their self awareness, they need this time in their days and weeks to retreat, time and space to begin the letting go process of all the "˜crap"˜ they carry with them. This statement is very true for any soul with this signature. Eventually, thru self discovery and self development, what will birth forth is a new sense of "˜right"˜ service which results in renewed fulfillment in being of service to others and the world. The role of service they fill in the world and to those around them would now be filled with a greater ultimate meaning to self and continue the evolution of the soul. Having achieved a balance in relationships, service, and work with time for self, they will continue down the path to self discovery which will continue to transform the rest of their life. And, of course, they will be known by friends and acquaintances as a great listener and natural counselor because of how this reflect they are listening to their own self and value their own self.
One final thought, is to consider the aspect dynamics here. The natural trine between the 2nd and 10th reveals the ease in which newly established values become judgements. And the natural T-square of the 10th to the 1st/7th reveals that even as they begin to establish new judgements, these new judgements will still be a challenge in relationships and to the self. The north node, naturally in polarity to the sn6th, and at the midpoint to the rulers of north and south node via sextile, we see the importance of ultimately judging based on intent, which will shed light on patterns of over criticalness, as seen in south node behaviors. The natural inconjuct(which i measured as waxing) of north node to pluto reveals that the individual will most definitely reach a crisis point in which, thru mental analysis, the opportunity comes forth to reframe their security needs from others in context to the ultimate truth of their own essence. (nn12 sextile ruler second).
Thanks for taking the time to read. Any feedback is greatly appreciated. I tried to take into account all the points you brought up Rad. Let me know which ones could have been developed more, etc. if you wish.
Blessings,
b
Bradley you have done very, very good work here. Bravo. You are progressing very, very well.
Rad
Rad,
Thanks again,
processing, absorbing, learning...
I realize there are more dynamics that could be developed here.
So, it is a big spectrum from total sadist to total masochist, with potential to beone or the other to varying degrees or both-sadomasochist, with differing levels of extreme-ness potential at any point in the spectrum?
As soul workers, how important is it that we reach the core of how much the guilt is based on learned guilt vs. guilt from violation of natural laws? Is this dependent on how much the individual wants to know?
Any other suggestions for this signature or for us to develop before we move on?
thanks,
b
Hi Bradley,
Quote from: Bradley J on Nov 22, 2009, 11:04 PM
Rad,
Thanks again,
processing, absorbing, learning...
I realize there are more dynamics that could be developed here.
So, it is a big spectrum from total sadist to total masochist, with potential to beone or the other to varying degrees or both-sadomasochist, with differing levels of extreme-ness potential at any point in the spectrum?
************************************************************************
Yes and also possible of course that the Soul is neither a masochist or a sadist. The Soul could just be a very, extremely, self critical person who judges them self harshly relative to the two types of guilt that we have been talking about. They could literally be their own worst enemy as a result. And because of this highly self critical inner relationship to them self they then, of course, attract others in relationship, 7th House Pluto, or in the work / career place .. S.Node in the 6th with it's planetary ruler in the 10th. Almost all folks with this signature will feel a deep inner emptiness, an inner void, an existential void, that they typically want to run from. As a result they can compulsively fill up that inner void through relationships, or through the famous 'list of things to do' which keeps them running around like rats on a wheel. Or any manner of activity that fills up that void which can include food eating that can also become compulsive. Because of the guilt association this can be a cause of anorexia or bulimia.
And yet these folks can also manifest a pure desire to help others, to be of service in some way to others that is defined by a very real humility that generates the purity of these Souls. They can be highly forgiving of others 'faults' only because they are so aware of their own. Like you say there are many, many dimensions to any archetype(s).
*************************************************************************
As soul workers, how important is it that we reach the core of how much the guilt is based on learned guilt vs. guilt from violation of natural laws? Is this dependent on how much the individual wants to know?
****************************************************************************
It's important to help them understand the difference between these two types of guilt, and to encourage them to actively reflect on these guilts within themselves in such a way as to determine what is what. One very 'practical' thing to encourage is for such folks to sit down with a pen and paper and write down all the guilt they feel within them self: ' i feel guilty because .........'. And once they write down that list to then focus on what guilts they have learned, versus what has been caused by natural guilt. And, above all else, to remind such clients that ALL SOULS ON EARTH HAVE FUCKED UP. ALL. And that we are meant to learn from natural guilt so as to carry on in such a way as to not repeat those things that have caused that natural guilt. To remind these clients that the natural God/ess is a forgiving one, and they also need to learn to forgive them selfs: N.Node in the 12th.
**************************************************************************
Any other suggestions for this signature or for us to develop before we move on?
**************************************************************************
Yes, depending on evolutionary state, the archetype that we have been dealing with can correlate with true healers, Souls that desire to help others heal in a variety of ways, and through a variety of works that correlate to the healing or helping professions which is rooted in the 7th House Pluto in this paradigm: to desire to give, and to help. In this signature many of these Souls need to LEARN WHEN NOT TO GIVE AND IN THAT APPEARANCE OF NOT GIVING IT BECOMES AN ACT OF REAL GIVING. This lesson correlates to when in the process of giving or helping another the other is only mouthing the words of wanting to change, yet has no real desire to change. To keep giving to such a person is to allow them to keep the dynamics within themselves that are the cause of their problems in the first place. So it then becomes necessary to create the appearance of withholding giving so that a necessary emotional and psychological shock is delivered whose intent is to force the hand of that type of person: you either apply the knowledge being giving to you in order to change, or you don't.
In addition, these Souls have ongoing issue in boundaries with others that can cause them to absorb .. Pluto .. the issues, problems, and dynamics of others that then can come into them self. 'Taking the work home' with them, taking another(s) problems on within them to the point of thinking or analyzing the other(s) after the fact, and so on can all lead to not only confusion within in terms of what they are problems and issues are versus others, but, in the long run, can create real physical crisis as in their own health issues.
There are , as in any archetype and EA paradigm, so many different manifestations within the total spectrum of the archetypes, paradigms. This is why is is critical to the EA person to understand the totality of the archetypes that starts with signs, houses, and planets.
*************************************************************************
thanks,
b
Your welcome, Rad
Hi group,
So are you ready now to move on to another paradigm ? And, if so, how about we do someone in the 3rd Stage individuated ?
Let me know ..........
Rad
sounds like another great learning experience is coming
Yes, I'm ready for the next assignment! ;D
Ari, Linda, and Bradley
Ok, let's start with a new paradigm. The evolutionary condition will be in the 3rd Stage Individuated, yet right on the cusp on moving into the 1st Stage Spiritual. The paradigm will be a 4th House Pluto, the S.Node will be the 2nd House, it's planetary ruler will be in the 11th, N.Node of course in the 8th, and it's planetary ruler will be in the 9th House.
Again, please read through JWG's Pluto one book focusing on Pluto in the 4th, the 2nd, the 11th, the 8th, and the 9th. These are the relevant archetypes to focus on in terms of the archetypes involved in this new paradigm.
And remember THE VALUE IS IN THE EFFORT.
Let's have a go of it ..........
Rad
This is my second take at the last practice chart.
This soul has deeply internalized unto them self what is and what is not socially acceptable. They have taken on roles in which they fill a social purpose. In these roles, they are constantly improving their capacity for self accuracy.
This all weighs on the relationships as there has been a deep need within this soul to be as perfect as possible. In an unhealthy way- this soul may feel a lot of internal anger based on their own perceived inadequacies. They will then create circumstances in which they are giving to other people not based on a natural awareness of when to give and when not to give- natural boundaries. Their sharing patterns may emanate from an inner feeling of guilt of not being good enough. This tendency will naturally attract partners that want to take from this person- resulting perhaps in strongly abusive situations where our soul seems all put together and fine on the outside- goes about doing their job- really well- but comes home to a relationship that is deeply dishonoring. They may even ASK to be hurt or dishonored, which would be a distorted form of intimacy: receiving punishment from the partner as a way to intentionally feel humiliated and berated for the low life they already think they are.
In the same vain- this soul may project their inner feelings of imperfection onto their partner. The tendency may be to immediately try to fix the partner via intense criticism and judgment. This can easily result in violent behavior that comes from an intense rage. All this ultimately comes from the soul's inner feeling of lack- of inherently being flawed.
It's very possible that a drinking problem may develop. Alcoholism in this case is based on the guilt of being a piece of shit. They may be work-a-holics who come home and drink themselves drunk. The 10th house ruler tells us how socially aware this soul is. The need to be perfect here is linked to meeting social standards- which at this evolutionary state are simply not working any more. Any anger this soul may experience, is actually a reflection of it's near readiness to break free from the status quo social expectations and radically simplify their life. It's possible that this soul will work really hard and have an outer appearance of everything being ok- but cyclicly become so overwhelmed with how much there is to do, that they obsessively make lists, but get nothing done. They stop brushing their teeth and neglect simple and obvious responsibilities.
It's very important that this soul realizes that they will never be good enough. As a result they stop working as hard as they were working, and learn how to find peace in just being who they are- w/out any distorted need to prove their worth. This does mean learning how to forgive themselves- and to forgive others- all for not being perfect. Coming from the consensus state, they may even be forgiving God who they mistakenly thought was perfect. Now they realize that literally nothing is perfect. In that realization an inner feeling of contentment and in fact perfection in just being who they are arises from within. An inner peace and satisfaction.
As they evolve, they will attract partners who will not exhibit critical and judgmental qualities- but rather unconditional acceptance and appreciation. Many of these partners will be people who have shifted in their own life from intensely busy, neurotic, ocd, distorted relationship with alcohol, food, with work, hurting themselves, hurting others etc. The soul's capacity to let go and be in the present moment, to not give what is not needed, to forgive mistakes of them self and of others- will bring people of a similar temperament into their life.
It's important to note, as Rad wrote- that these negative qualities are not necessarily going to manifest in the soul. With these signatures- this soul could be a humble being truly wishing to help others. Having taken meaningful social roles that are actually focused on helping others in a way that feels self honoring and valuable to this soul. This is possible- especially given the grand trine between both nodal rulers and the south node.
In this case- the same lessons would still apply- forgiving themselves, not overworking, not giving to others whenever someone asks for a favor. The crisis that this soul would experience would be a guilt based on having made mistakes/ having not tried hard enough/ having disappointed others. This guilt can be converted into awareness when they realize that their motivations for helping others is highly mixed in with an inner need to be as perfect/humble/selfless as possible. At that point they get to discover that they are always helping people, in fact just by being who they are- they are an innately humble and helpful soul. They will only serve/give when it is balanced and appropriate to do so, not when their unnatural guilt motivates them to do so.
Hi Ari,
Real good work Ari ............
Rad
oh thank you rad...
QuoteThe paradigm will be a 4th House Pluto, the S.Node will be the 2nd House, it's planetary ruler will be in the 11th, N.Node of course in the 8th, and it's planetary ruler will be in the 9th House.
To clarify- are we assuming a skipped step situation here with the planetary ruler of sn?
In general when you give these examples- are we assuming aspects according to what is likely given the house placements (in which case nn ruler is inconjunct nodes, pluto is sextile/trine nodes etc...)?
Ari,
Yes ...............
Rad
As I'm working on the current assignment, rereading the pluto 4th chapter and considering it in light of being on the cusp of the spiritual evolutionary stage, I've specifically been considering at what stage of evolution we know that the soul has already worked on their own inner security issues?
I'm sensing the answer to this isn't quite linear.
Specific to this assignment, considering the south node 2nd-self reliance piece-with ruler in 11th-casting off of other definitions of who they are not, combined with the evolutionary stage, am I right to know there has been at least some definite self development around s/he's own inner emotional security?
Near the end of the pluto 4th chapter, Jeffery wrote: "Generally, about 20% of Fourth House Pluto individuals have made real efforts to learn these lessons before."
So, to ask it another way, seeing a soul just entering the spiritual state/or about to-being in the 20% of farther evolved souls, is it still possible that s/he struggles with cycles related to unresolved displaced emotions? Is it more of degrees in which s/he would struggle, instead of a yes or no?
Many thanks again,
b
Hi Bradley,
Quote from: Bradley J on Nov 30, 2009, 11:47 AM
As I'm working on the current assignment, rereading the pluto 4th chapter and considering it in light of being on the cusp of the spiritual evolutionary stage, I've specifically been considering at what stage of evolution we know that the soul has already worked on their own inner security issues?
****************************************************************************
With a 4th House Pluto the Soul attempts to work on those inner security issues WITHIN THE CONTEXT OF IT'S EVOLUTIONARY STAGE OF DEVELOPMENT. For example, in a Consensus State the individual would typically seek to fulfill those inner security issues in the context of his or her family of origin. This of course sets up compulsive dependency on those family members. Yet because the Soul is desiring to develop inner security this then creates emotional and psychological shocks that force the individual back upon him or herself. Those shocks occur when the emotional demands projected upon the various family members go unmet which then has the affect of throwing the person back upon them self.
So it's the context of the existing state of evolution that is the determinant that correlates to how the Soul is learning this lesson of inner security.
*************************************************************************
I'm sensing the answer to this isn't quite linear.
Specific to this assignment, considering the south node 2nd-self reliance piece-with ruler in 11th-casting off of other definitions of who they are not, combined with the evolutionary stage, am I right to know there has been at least some definite self development around s/he's own inner emotional security?
************************************************************************
Yes relative to that state of evolution, the CONTEXT.
*************************************************************************
Near the end of the pluto 4th chapter, Jeffery wrote: "Generally, about 20% of Fourth House Pluto individuals have made real efforts to learn these lessons before."
So, to ask it another way, seeing a soul just entering the spiritual state/or about to-being in the 20% of farther evolved souls, is it still possible that s/he struggles with cycles related to unresolved displaced emotions? Is it more of degrees in which s/he would struggle, instead of a yes or no?
****************************************************************************
Yes the individual still struggles with all kinds of displaced emotions that are rooted IN INSECURITY, AND THE CAUSES FOR THAT INSECURITY. The matter of 'degrees' of struggling is itself a reflection of the evolutionary state of development because the further along the evolutionary path back to God correlates to SELF KNOWLEDGE. Objective self knowledge. The expanding consciousness because of.
**************************************************************************
Many thanks again,
b
Rad
End of 3rd state individuated
Pluto in 4th
sn second- ruler 11th
nn 8th- ruler 9th.
There have been traumatic experiences in which this soul's unique vision, way of living was rejected. Possibly having been exiled or excommunicated- triggering an evolutionary process as indicated by the pluto in the 4th- a deep inner feeling of abandonment and loss.
These experiences have lead the soul to develop it's self sufficiency to a very strong degree. In essence, an unaddressed fear of intimacy- to giving itself over to others and trusting others. This soul has been rejected, perhaps violently so- in ways that have resulted in a pattern of emotional dissociation and refusal to be vulnerable.
This soul naturally wants to make change and wants other people to be a part of that. There is deep within this soul a desire for community, and in particular other people whom they can share themselves with that align with their social values. But giving of itself is naturally a challenge as there is a memory of abandonment. They can fall into periods of intense distrust of other people- deeming others to be selfish and uncaring, all the while expecting others to give, and not actually giving of them self.
At the same time- the soul will have identified certain people in which there is a strong feeling of safety. These people are not necessarily aligned with this soul's higher purpose, or social vision. These people aren't necessarily emotionally honest- rather there is simply a strong degree of stability and security in these relationships. One such relationship may be with the soul's mother. However this reflects the pattern within this soul to avoid really giving of itself, and becoming vulnerable- facing rejection.
QUESTION: what does the Pluto sextile sn, as well as being the apex of a yod to the nodal rulers indicate about this soul's family of origin/mother? My understanding is that the family may be exactly as I described above- conducive to familiarity, yet also conducive to dissociation and not supportive/ or even aware of this soul truly being who they are.
This soul will naturally flip flop between 1: going out on a limb, traveling to new places, meeting new people, connecting to a community, or a vision that allows for a true spiritual and social evolution to occur and devoting them self to living in community with other people who are working towards the same vision and 2: fearing the philosophical differences between them self and others to the point of not seeking new friendships, not going anywhere new- but rather circulating old ways of thinking and social visions- perhaps even being obsessed with certain ideas, but doing nothing about them.
The experience of flip flopping occurs as this soul gets so overwhelmed with the need to live differently, to have more excitement and purpose in their life, to un-stagnate their intense stubbornness, isolation and non exposure to the world. Then, they get really excited and impassioned. They start moving towards other people, towards the unfamiliar, they start sharing their truth and even start finding other people who are just like them... BUT some sort of trigger keeps on pushing them back to being a frog in the well. This trigger is anything that bespeaks a possible betrayal and loss. Suddenly the new friend who wants to work together on a project to create permaculture gardens all over the country either: becomes attached to our soul resulting in a feeling of fear, as intimacy and sharing is threatening. Or the opposite: the new friend is them self very stubborn and self reliant, resulting in our soul feeling unsafe as they do not feel they can become dependent on their new friend to always be there and share in their vision.
In another case- this soul may literally be confronted with social groups, organizations etc that are on the one hand very visionary and enlightened, but on the other hand intensely limited in their spiritual scope of the world. This soul may identify with this group, but then realize that they them self have a perspective of life that is more holistic. They will then feel alienated and different. They will try to influence others and speak their truth, but the group will not be interested in making any changes. As a result they will eventually disconnect from this group and return to the safe, known familiar- which isn't challenging, but also isn't evolutionary.
This soul is evolving via the emotional body. This means that there is a natural process of cyclically breaking free from their environments of security that are safe and familiar, but not conducive to evolution. This will force the soul to eventually realize that they have to be vulnerable, they have to risk letting go of their own space and let someone in who can really care for them and who shares in their vision.
The key here is really to be forming conscious relationships with people and with any symbol that focuses on the evolution of consciousness. This soul needs to take transformation seriously, and make it a conscious intent in their life. There must be at some point a developed awareness that it needs to create a container to grow beyond it's limitations of isolation, false dependencies, social frustration and fear.
The relationships they create will help them foster true objectivity that allows them to become more aware of both understanding and experiencing in their own way- evolution. It will be their role to help other people see beyond their own limitations, via this soul's growing ability to identify the blocks to growth. They will become increasingly exposed to new people, new ways of looking at life- to an expansive perspective of reality that gives them more real security and inner self reliance.
By traveling- either intellectually, via the internet, or through actual travel, they will be able to connect to community of like minded souls that are working towards the same lessons- to evolve their own consciousness in the context of a community... other soul's who are developing an awareness of evolution just as they are. They may create a relationship with E.A. In doing so- they will have the philosophical and visionary framework to work on them self and help others.
The key to all of this is simply their willingness to be vulnerable and challenge their known security. The PPP here is symbolized by making something of their identity that requires interaction, sharing and the giving of oneself to others and to ideas that are HIGHER than oneself. These ideas must also be healing tools that allows for the development of an objective/detached consciousness within the soul.
In being detached and objective this soul is not afraid of other people. They can be who they are and simply see everything from a higher perspective w/out the interference of their subjective need for security and blind simplicity.
Ari,
From your post: "QUESTION: what does the Pluto sextile sn, as well as being the apex of a yod to the nodal rulers indicate about this soul's family of origin/mother? My understanding is that the family may be exactly as I described above- conducive to familiarity, yet also conducive to dissociation and not supportive/ or even aware of this soul truly being who they are."
***************************************************************************
It correlates to a great crisis for this Soul. All children, as children, naturally expect to be loved and and giving too for who they are. When this does not happen it leads to displaced emotions: the 11th house S.Node ruler being inconjunct Pluto in the 4th. Those displaced emotions are the emotions of the child that get progressively stuffed into the subconscious structure within the person. Those childhood emotions then operate at a subconscious level as the person becomes as adult, and become the basis of emotional expectations they project .. 11th house..upon other people, and the world: the 10th House polarity of the 4th House Pluto. The inconjunct from the 9th House planetary ruler of the N.Node in the 8th, in this Soul's context, to one or both parents being perceived as psychological and emotional tormentors by this Soul BECAUSE OF BEING DIFFERENT which then lead to be isolated by the family .. the S.Node in the 2nd house.
*************************************************************************
Your analysis was really , really good Ari. Good for you !
Rad
THANK YOU Rad.
i was wondering if there could possibly be an actual social paranoia that someone is out to get them- a constant fear of being tortured, or turned in?
or would that be more applicable if the soul was second stage individuated?
Rad and all,
I'm not just out here in cyber-space; I'm actually still on the planet earth and studying between the business of life. I should be ready to post by friday or saturday on this.
And, I have one clarifying question. As with pluto squaring the nodes, are we to treat a planet squaring the nodes in a similar manner? by this, I mean-JWG wrote "When Pluto applies to the north node, then the polarity point of pluto and the south node and its planetary ruler must be integrated thru the north node, with its ruling planet facilitating the process." (pluto book I, p. 22 first edition)
So, in our current assignment, if we apply this with the sn ruler squaring and applying to the nn, then the above is true with the nn and its planetary ruler facilitating the process of integrating the skipped steps as they relate to ppp, sn and its ruler? Is the question clear?
Thanks,
b
Hi Ari,
Quote from: ari moshe on Dec 07, 2009, 11:10 AM
THANK YOU Rad.
i was wondering if there could possibly be an actual social paranoia that someone is out to get them- a constant fear of being tortured, or turned in?
or would that be more applicable if the soul was second stage individuated?
Yes, it is possible depending on the actual signs involved. For example, the S.Node could be in Virgo in the 2nd, with it's planetary ruler Mercury in Gemini in the 11th, the N.Node in Pisces in the 8th, ruler Neptune in the 9th, all relative to a 4th House Pluto in Scorpio.
Rad
Bradley,
Yes, you have it exactly right ............
Rad
hopefully soon, progress as needed,
much love,
b
Cusp 3rd Individuated/1st Spiritual : Pluto 4th - SN 2nd - SN Ruler 11th
The Soul experiences trauma at birth when the umbilical cord gets tied around her neck. [Edit: Incorrect. See Rad's reply #292 below.] In the life and death struggle she is met by the poisonous and tenacious matriarchal matrix: mother! As the birth is so difficult and the mother totally exhausted, no bond takes place between mother and child. The Soul's needs are unable to be met by the mother nor by the absent father. The mother refuses to breast-feed so the baby is fed with a bottle formula. She cries a lot. Her physical and emotional needs are not properly met. She is labelled as "odd" or "different" by the family. The neglect continues and as the child grows she retreats more and more into her own world.
She feels every emotion intensely and deeply. She is very needy, overly sensitive, and inhibited. As a teenager, she cries alone in her room and seeks a relationship with the divine to comfort her. She is totally misunderstood and taunted, yet she loves her parents, tries to be of service, and displays a kindness and light that sets her apart. The lack of emotional support from the early environment is imprinted in her subconscious and as she is unable to resolve the imprint of "no nurture", her emotions become displaced.
A treacherous symbiosis forms with the mother who uses emotional blackmail to manipulate and control her. The soul's need for love and care is met with rejection, and so she suffers recurring patterns of illness in the hope of getting just a little love through her mother's attention. She can unconsciously manipulate others to get her needs met by feigning desperation. Her neediness and dependency are so powerful that when there is no release from them, she uses food for comfort. She suffers from a lack of energy and despondency as her self-image is very low. She tries to untangle herself from the long and intense power struggle with her mother, but with no success, as the binds that tie go too deep (past lives). The entanglement infringes on the development of her individuality, and as she gets older she recognizes the need to get away from the mother: the need for space.
She takes up the piano and singing, but tends to cop out on herself a lot (waning sextile). She feels weak with the seed of insecurity and has to keep reminding herself "you can do it." Through a steely determination she continues with the piano until she becomes quite accomplished. She moves into composition and is able to express her uniqueness, originality and brilliance through her music and lyrical themes for social change.
Meditation is an important facet of her life as she is beginning to really open up her consciousness to the cosmos. She has a passion for astrology and finds she is quite talented in that she can use her intuition in her readings as well as naturally grasp the spiritual archetypes. She joins together with like-minded friends in group situations and understands what is required of her by the group. Her social purpose is expressed through personal humility (waning inconjunct) and sensitivity. She cares a lot for the "needs of the many", and spends a lot of time in alternative environments adopting them as her "home". She has the capacity to defend the defenceless and may sacrifice herself for the group.
She forms relationships with friends that alternate between her being very needy of the other, and drawing emotionally weak people who become dependent on her. Her focus on the weak points and subtle domination of the needy partner guarantees fulfilment of her security issues. She has a tendency to over-react when her needs are not met. The pushing of buttons of unresolved needs can lead to sudden eruptions of rage, anger, insecurity, panic, desperation, non-stop crying, or the injection of a dark mood. After these eruptions abate she is totally apologetic, but soon becomes classifed by others as unstable or a nervous type. When a relationship ends, she suffers an emotional shock due to the cataclysm of loss. She may become emotionally disturbed or psychologically unstable, and may seek psychiatric help.
The unstable foundation of unresolved needs may cause her to bury her emotions. These old, unresolved emotions when released through cataclysms can bring trauma and shock. The defence mechanism of emotional shut down can sever connections with others. She has a very hard time coping with losses in relationships and may spend years trying to get over them, all the while nursing deep resentments and bitterness. On recovery, the pattern is then quickly repeated as she attaches herself to another in total dependency and symbiosis.
She experiences two distinct and unpredictable cycles: (1) the need to be alone to process emotions that are being released by her subconscious; and (2) an animated and lively expression when these emotions are being processed. She also needs space and time alone to think, alternating with breaking free with unrestricted and sometimes shocking behaviour. To others she appears quite eccentric, nervous, emotionally quirky, yet very gentle.
She is denied the material resources of the parents and cannot relate to their materialistic values. She believes in the bounty of the universe to provide her needs, while putting in minimal effort to sustain herself (laziness). She is fixed in a secure and limited knowledge about life in general and makes progress by taking one step forward and two steps back (cardinal 4th).
An example would be aligning herself with a powerful person who generously offers her free accommodation in return for musical performances. When she takes the situation for granted, and the bills start piling up, and the free situation falls through, she finds herself homeless, with an overburdened credit card, her spiritual sustenance dried up, her parents cutting off support, the loss of friends and social connections, and the sudden termination of her dependent relationship. The cataclysmic shock and psychological trauma forces her to examine the dynamics around her value systems and to radically alter her life, while at the same time enabling her to make adjustments in her emotional behaviour. She is learning that others are just as important as she is, and this understanding helps widen her previously limited vision of life.
She subconsciously draws to herself people who can point out the limitations associated with her value systems, and how to promote self-reliance through her own efforts. These people can easily see where she is going wrong and can give valuable advice. Improvements are made and she learns how to apply her skills and talents to society in a way that is compatible with others' value systems and in a way that is of value to society. These lessons bring newfound heights and sensitivity to her music, expansion to her astrological skills to the point where she can start practising, a deepening of her spiritual commitment and awakening to the truth, and the ability to share her spiritual resources with others.
...........To be continued (PPP, NN 8th, NN Ruler 9th).
Hi Linda,
Well, I can certainly appreciate the effort you have put into this analysis. But what you have really done Linda in make up a story within the paradigm that we are focusing on now. There is NO WAY that these symbols to date would be able to arrive at the details you have presented in the story you have created: i.e. the cord being tied around the baby's neck, etc. You have touched certain archetypal themes within the story that you have created that are accurate.
What we need to do in these practice charts Linda is to focus on THE ARCHETYPES THEMSELVES such as Gonzalo did, or like Ari did. To demonstrate within the analysis the interaction of those archetypes that then correlate to the core of where the Soul is at within themselves and why.
Please consider redoing this analysis in this way, which you have done before.
Rad
Thanks Rad for your evaluation.
I didn't read Gonzalopan's or Ari's assignments on purpose, as I wanted to attempt it purely from my own understanding and effort.
I'll try again.
Do we need permission to post here? Under the assumption that I think not I am posting a short 'reading' of the information given. I have done some of the EA homework assignments but it has been awhile & I'm wanting to dust off my EA methods. I thought the SN was applying to square planet -shows how rusty I am! Anyway, I admit I'm very tired, but have thought of contributing frequently but never have - if I don't know or just do it, I never will (SN taurus speaking here with ruler retro & squaring it, believe me, I know procrastination and as a virgo I am willing to be very imperfect to just get it out there!). So, although I'm tired & it's not comprehensive & I didn't really go into past life possiblities in detail this is still a sincere effort.
Pluto 4th sn 2nd ruler square 11th nn 8th ruler 9th
(notes. Relativity of ego - need for confrontation w/security/insecurity. Voluntary and forced examination of values, needs. If family not supportive, etc. If it is, then - ? Regardless many lives of not being loved/accepted unconditionally leading to "˜rebelling' looking for "˜family' - increasingly this is not satisfactory and the soul is moving toward embracing a larger dynamic - to confront it's constant objectivication, projection of power to see that security is not a dynamic created by an ever-changing ego - etc.)
With Pluto in the 4th house this person would be deeply emotional, sensitive and invested in their self-image for a sense of security and this, because they are high tuned to their environment, is frequently a direct result of family origins despite many lives of individuation, they still feel emotionally fragile - given their evolutionary state this issue is reinforced as they recognize that even their hard won "˜individuality"˜ ultimately is also subject to illusion and erosion in the face of larger forces. The interaction within themselves and the world is paramount - their environment is crucial in that the feedback for their self-image is built. This person would be coming into this life with many prior lives wherein their sense of who they are was damaged by their environment, especially the family they were born into. Many lives of having the feedback of being too weird, too different and misunderstood has created a deep sense of lack and self doubt (point is to question security, it's basis and where indeed one's self-image comes from). This person is highly tuned to their environment and thus when the natal situation is hostile the external feedback is internalized. This person has been learning to access their fundamental values, meaning in order to sort and separate themselves from others and from environments that are hostile. This may have caused situations/lives wherein they are "˜hiding' out, not participating and becoming too adapted to their safe place. These situations have collapsed in on themselves as circumstances force them to confront a larger reality and to see themselves within a larger context. They have been forced to develop a level of objectivity and detachment in order to recognize where they begin and end - where other judgements are other's projections onto to them and what is essentially true within themselves. They will eventually come to recognize their dependence on other's projections/judgements to maintain/define their self-image and as this has become increasingly unsatisfactory they recognize the depth of their insecurity and that other's opinions/judgements etc. and even the circumstances of their lives do not provide the answers - the foundation is within themselves, considering the evolutionary state this person would begin to realize the very porous nature of the ego itself - the illusions created from within and allowed to be sustained from further illusions from without. Within the SN 2nd and it's ruler in the 11th these lessons have been repeated over and over to create as sense of frustration - progress being made only to be plunged back into confusion and feeling capable of being only self-reliant. They have become too accustomed to their safe place, their self-image and have only accepted external feedback from within certain selective groups or functions. They have developed an amount of self-reliance and community but, increasingly this only satisfies the "˜known' and not what is beyond even a carefully cultivated image, persona and social context. The NN, ruler and skipped step shows the need to entirely embrace the unknown via immersion with that which is "˜other'.
Within the skipped step they have either been totally emersed in an "˜other"˜ whether a person, or ides, philosophy, religion, etc. or conversely entirely a loner, within a safe zone and even if involved in "˜ideas"˜ or projects communally they are were never fully emotionally engaged. This person has wanted to "˜jump' in and merge themselves totally in others as a means of "˜self-image' or security - the soul first needs to establish fully it's own inner security. I would suggest that an exacerbation of the issues of self-image have been reinforced from a possible gender switch creating further confusion.
This skipped step shows that the revelations within themselves via intense relationships of all kinds needs and will be revisited to create the necessary emotional and psychological adjustment - not just an intellectual one. Within these "˜confrontations"˜ via ideas, religion, philosophy, intense relationships this person is learning the relativity of security, of meaning and of the very foundation of their perceived "˜needs"˜. The are being prodded to engage, to question, to quest - to test their inner values and core worth within a context outside of themselves. North node in the eighth has created situations wherein they have seen themselves within a larger context - whether it be in relationships, ideas, religion, philosophically, but always there is the desire to have the self-image and emotional security be coming from without, from outside themselves - the feeling of security, if they did not create or have that feeling via projection they would then totally retreat. They are seeking to understand themselves within a universal context increasingly, - but, until inner security (or the illusion of security is relinquished on an ego level) is established they cannot be in satisfactory relationships or see their inner meaning fully reflected in their life. I would add that any lies or distortions based upon illusions and their need for a particular self-image will explode/implode. The lies they've used to sustain themselves will be uncovered within relationships and psychological examination. Ultimately the point is to move, dynamically, outside and beyond the stasis of either/or. To recognize that security is not other's evalutation or opinion/judgement, it is not what 'you get' via relationships, it is not determined by an ever-changing ego but is an acceptance of phenomenal reality, of time itself and the changes it creates and taking responsibility for one's own needs and desires. Security would be realized through increasingly becoming aware of that which is beyond ever evaporating desires. This would lead this person to seek eventually what the source of their consciousness is, what sustains the 'illusion' outside of their ego consciousness. I would also add that this person would be capable of fully expressing the 'flower' of their individuality, of their ego within a special work or expression. This would be the best expression of the PPP. Aside from that the need for externalization, objectivications and assuming responsiblities on many levels - personal and public are required. A real healing could take place by recognizing the place of the collective, the responsible and ethical within the intense inner focus of the self.
.
Individuated/Spiritual ~~~ Pluto 4th ~ SN 2nd ~ SN ruler 11th ~~~ PPP 10th ~ NN 8th ~ NN ruler 9th Within the core dynamic of this paradigm the Soul manifests within reality as a talented and humble person (Individuated/Spiritual) who is moving toward commitment of service to the whole. The new form in this new evolutionary cycle (Pluto 4th) is not fully developed, and can be likened to a seed that has sprouted, but has yet no leaves or flowers. The Soul has created the present kind of egocentric structure over a great length of evolutionary time in order to enforce the lesson of internal security.
The Soul has created all kinds of traumas, shocks and cataclysms prior to this life: being treated as "different" by the parents, not being understood, not getting emotional needs met, experiencing the shock of removal of external sources of security such as relationships, friends, possessions, material security, group activities, etc. The traumas affect her emotional reality by forcing her in upon herself to reflect on what constitutes security, the self-image she has, and what she does and does not value.
The sense of emotional security from the karmic past is described through her own self-reliance; her own personal resources to sustain herself; her own personal values; a limited and fixed vision about life; a reliance upon the past; and a reluctance to jump out of the safe and secure well which she has withdrawn into.
The Soul's capacity to embrace change is minimal (SN sextile Pluto), and there is a resistance to change (fixed 2nd/11th/8th). She is learning that the value is in the effort, not necessarily the outcome, so her progress is slow.
The distinct self-image of her ego shows who she is, how she thinks, what her values are, and the emotional reality that she lives in. The strength of the ego is very weak as she has an inherent insecurity and is heavily reliant on external sources to maintain a bottomless pit of needs. Her self-image, how she sees herself inwardly, is one of vulnerability, sensitivity and neediness.
She osmoses the reality of her parents and this imprint forms the basis of future relationships. She is unable to consciously resolve that early input, therefore her emotions become displaced. Herein lies the necessity for emotional shocks that take place through the re-creation of the early conditions, in order to resolve them.
Her sense (or lack) of emotional security in the past was created through family relationships, a strong survival instinct, attachment to possessions, a sense of her own self-reliance, and these facilitated by her involvement in group activities, attachment to friends and social causes. All of these areas comprise her inner emotional security structure from several past lives and in this life, and basically describes a non-growth situation within her soul.
She comes into this life with unconscious prior-life memories of the same kind of parental situations where she does not receive sufficient nurturing, appreciation or understanding of her individuality. The compulsive emotional behaviour patterns are repeated through lifetimes of emotional shocks delivered by her family and others.
The early impact of dysfunctional family relationships where her needs were not met has been very difficult for her in the past. The inner relationship she has to herself is riddled with messages that extensively confirm her sense of individuality as sensitive, vulnerable, needy and weak. It is also possible that she has experienced total denial of her emotional vulnerability (SN ruler 11th).
She values anyone who is able to emotionally support her. Somebody who can understand her, and give her what she needs on an emotional level constitutes real meaning for her. But these occurrences are rare, as her own soul has set up the removal of such persons, eg lovers, relationships, friends.
The inner relationship she has with herself determines the types of relationships she has with others. She can form relationships with others in which she unconsciously expects to have her emotional childlike needs met by projecting all her emotional difficulties and pain. The closer she becomes to another, the more intense the projections and expectations.
She will unconsciously draw partners whose psychological make up is similar to one or both of the parents through whom she attempts to recover the early feeling of a need for nurturing. She may manipulate others in order to have her needs met through emotional tantrums, rage, anger, withdrawal, desperation, moodiness, or guilt.
Partners are unable to understand who she is at the childlike level she operates on, and this realization leads to an attempt to redefine her relationships. She steps out of the well in order to merge with powerful partners (8th) who draw her out of herself and with whom she can express her sensitive "womanly" nature. She has a need to be held and touched and so she values sex as it is an emotional act (2nd). The yod formation brings about a crisis as to her sexual preferences as there is confusion carried over from the recent gender switch.
She subconsciously draws to herself people who can point out her limitations and who can encourage her to apply her skills and talents to society in a way that is of value, and thus coerce her out of the well. She merges with powerful symbols (8th) of spiritual truth and knowledge (9th) in order to overcome her sense of limitation and to expand her world. When she acts upon the current life intentions of the PPP (10th) she slowly learns to take responsibility for herself by developing self-determination and a small measure of inner security is born of her own efforts.
It is unlikely that she will overcome her emotional behavioural patterns to a large degree, as this is a new cycle for her "¦ but she will progress slowly but surely.
~~~~~~~~~~~~
Hi Lucius,
You are of course welcome to participate in our practice charts.
***************************************************************************
Quote from: Lucius on Dec 16, 2009, 08:08 PM
Do we need permission to post here? Under the assumption that I think not I am posting a short 'reading' of the information given. I have done some of the EA homework assignments but it has been awhile & I'm wanting to dust off my EA methods. I thought the SN was applying to square planet -shows how rusty I am! Anyway, I admit I'm very tired, but have thought of contributing frequently but never have - if I don't know or just do it, I never will (SN taurus speaking here with ruler retro & squaring it, believe me, I know procrastination and as a virgo I am willing to be very imperfect to just get it out there!). So, although I'm tired & it's not comprehensive & I didn't really go into past life possiblities in detail this is still a sincere effort.
Pluto 4th sn 2nd ruler square 11th nn 8th ruler 9th
(notes. Relativity of ego - need for confrontation w/security/insecurity.
************************************************************************
Explain what you mean by 'relativity of the ego'
***********************************************************************
Voluntary and forced examination of values, needs.
**********************************************************************
By who ? And for what reasons ? You need to supply you EA logic or reasoning behind what you say in statements like this
***********************************************************************
If family not supportive, etc. If it is, then - ? Regardless many lives of not being loved/accepted unconditionally leading to "˜rebelling' looking for "˜family' - increasingly this is not satisfactory and the soul is moving toward embracing a larger dynamic - to confront it's constant objectivication, projection of power to see that security is not a dynamic created by an ever-changing ego - etc.)
***************************************************************************
Again, you need to supply you EA reasoning behind all of these statements. What larger dynamic ? To confront it's constant objectification, projection of power to see that security in not a dynamic created by an ever changing ego ? I have no idea of what you are talking about here.
***************************************************************************
With Pluto in the 4th house this person would be deeply emotional, sensitive and invested in their self-image for a sense of security and this, because they are high tuned to their environment, is frequently a direct result of family origins despite many lives of individuation, they still feel emotionally fragile - given their evolutionary state this issue is reinforced as they recognize that even their hard won "˜individuality"˜ ultimately is also subject to illusion and erosion in the face of larger forces.
*****************************************************************************
is also subject to illusion and erosion in the face of larger forces ? Again, you need to explain what this means, and the EA reasoning behind whatever it is that you mean by this ..
**************************************************************************
The interaction within themselves and the world is paramount - their environment is crucial in that the feedback for their self-image is built. This person would be coming into this life with many prior lives wherein their sense of who they are was damaged by their environment, especially the family they were born into. Many lives of having the feedback of being too weird, too different and misunderstood has created a deep sense of lack and self doubt (point is to question security, it's basis and where indeed one's self-image comes from).
***************************************************************************
Why would this Soul have created those kinds of experiences ? What is the intent within the Soul itself ? It's not just about where the self image comes from ........it's about being learning to develop and internal sense of security and self reliance ......it's about learning about who they are as unique individuals thorough counter point awareness: ' I am not this, I am not that, thus, what and who am I " ?
***************************************************************************
This person is highly tuned to their environment and thus when the natal situation is hostile the external feedback is internalized. This person has been learning to access their fundamental values, meaning in order to sort and separate themselves from others and from environments that are hostile. This may have caused situations/lives wherein they are "˜hiding' out, not participating and becoming too adapted to their safe place. These situations have collapsed in on themselves as circumstances force them to confront a larger reality and to see themselves within a larger context. They have been forced to develop a level of objectivity and detachment in order to recognize where they begin and end - where other judgements are other's projections onto to them and what is essentially true within themselves.
*************************************************************************
Yes, but please supply your EA reasoning in support of your analysis here
**************************************************************************
They will eventually come to recognize their dependence on other's projections/judgements to maintain/define their self-image and as this has become increasingly unsatisfactory they recognize the depth of their insecurity and that other's opinions/judgements etc. and even the circumstances of their lives do not provide the answers - the foundation is within themselves, considering the evolutionary state this person would begin to realize the very porous nature of the ego itself - the illusions created from within and allowed to be sustained from further illusions from without. Within the SN 2nd and it's ruler in the 11th these lessons have been repeated over and over to create as sense of frustration - progress being made only to be plunged back into confusion and feeling capable of being only self-reliant. They have become too accustomed to their safe place, their self-image and have only accepted external feedback from within certain selective groups or functions. They have developed an amount of self-reliance and community but, increasingly this only satisfies the "˜known' and not what is beyond even a carefully cultivated image, persona and social context. The NN, ruler and skipped step shows the need to entirely embrace the unknown via immersion with that which is "˜other'.
Within the skipped step they have either been totally emersed in an "˜other"˜ whether a person, or ides, philosophy, religion, etc. or conversely entirely a loner, within a safe zone and even if involved in "˜ideas"˜ or projects communally they are were never fully emotionally engaged. This person has wanted to "˜jump' in and merge themselves totally in others as a means of "˜self-image' or security - the soul first needs to establish fully it's own inner security. I would suggest that an exacerbation of the issues of self-image have been reinforced from a possible gender switch creating further confusion.
This skipped step shows that the revelations within themselves via intense relationships of all kinds needs and will be revisited to create the necessary emotional and psychological adjustment - not just an intellectual one. Within these "˜confrontations"˜ via ideas, religion, philosophy, intense relationships this person is learning the relativity of security, of meaning and of the very foundation of their perceived "˜needs"˜. The are being prodded to engage, to question, to quest - to test their inner values and core worth within a context outside of themselves. North node in the eighth has created situations wherein they have seen themselves within a larger context - whether it be in relationships, ideas, religion, philosophically, but always there is the desire to have the self-image and emotional security be coming from without, from outside themselves - the feeling of security, if they did not create or have that feeling via projection they would then totally retreat. They are seeking to understand themselves within a universal context increasingly, - but, until inner security (or the illusion of security is relinquished on an ego level) is established they cannot be in satisfactory relationships or see their inner meaning fully reflected in their life. I would add that any lies or distortions based upon illusions and their need for a particular self-image will explode/implode. The lies they've used to sustain themselves will be uncovered within relationships and psychological examination. Ultimately the point is to move, dynamically, outside and beyond the stasis of either/or. To recognize that security is not other's evalutation or opinion/judgement, it is not what 'you get' via relationships, it is not determined by an ever-changing ego but is an acceptance of phenomenal reality, of time itself and the changes it creates and taking responsibility for one's own needs and desires. Security would be realized through increasingly becoming aware of that which is beyond ever evaporating desires. This would lead this person to seek eventually what the source of their consciousness is, what sustains the 'illusion' outside of their ego consciousness. I would also add that this person would be capable of fully expressing the 'flower' of their individuality, of their ego within a special work or expression. This would be the best expression of the PPP. Aside from that the need for externalization, objectivications and assuming responsiblities on many levels - personal and public are required. A real healing could take place by recognizing the place of the collective, the responsible and ethical within the intense inner focus of the self. .
Lucius,
I feel you do understand the natural flow of the EA paradigm from what you have written , and a good grasp of the archetypes involved. Of course so much more is to be understood in the paradigm that we are working with right now to flesh out it's totality. What you wrote though is a good start.
Rad
Hi Linda,
A very good, succinct, analysis of this paradigm. You have captured it's succinct essence, but there are many many dynamics within this that could have been included to flesh out it's totality: the affect of the traumas, and what kinds of traumas for example. This is critical because in a signature like this it will correlate, in all cases, to a Soul literally born with PTSD. And that, of itself, then becomes a determinant that affects the Soul's entire behavior and orientation to their life. How does it affect their sexual orientation for example given that the S.Node is in the 2nd ? Their N.Node in the 8th ? In the future also please supply your EA reasoning that supports your analysis even though I can understand where you are coming from in your analysis: it's important for others who read this thread to see and understand the EA reasoning behind whatever statements/ analysis.
Very good job.
Rad
Thanks, Rad. The lack of detail/reasoning is why I almost didn't post (maybe posting inbetween getting dinner together isn't ideal, either!)- tonight I'll attempt to go into detail and reasoning. I am so exhausted most of the time just surviving and I have other projects in my time off that I'm afraid EA may need to take a back seat for the undetermined future. I feel bad when I have no energy for it - so, I need to prioritize (mars in gemini!). But, I would like to post here - it may take time & bits & pieces before it's coherent. If that is demeaning or not respectful to others then perhaps I shouldn't?
HI Lucius,
It is not demeaning for others , etc, in any way. Each Soul brings there are unique understanding of these charts that ALL OF US can benefit by. As long as you feel you can benefit from these practice charts then please keep being part of our little group.
Rad
Thanks, Rad. (by the way, I don't have my Pluto books, etc. to refer to)
One aspect I didn't go into is why I felt the NN 8th ruler 9th would correlate to not being truthful - I am mainly seeing that 4th house Pluto souls can feel victimized and that their neediness may exaggerate/inflate the truth to get what they want - feeling loved or having sympathy. I think the square planet in the 11th would correlate to projections onto others and projections onto themselves within a distorted framework. I feel the porous quality of the ego has created problems but the problems themselves are indicative of the evolutionary state that if confronted would heal the very issues themselves. This relates to the 'relavtivity' of the ego - consciousness, self-consciousness, ego, soul, Source. The recognition of the role of the ego the relavtivity w/i her own consciousness via have many lives, different egos, and then ultimately (being on the cusp) at least an inkling of the relative nature of her center of consciousness - ego or soul, and then, at least intellectually/emotionally if not in reality the soul could have the recognition of the relationship between the soul and Source. One major issue is the nature of trauma and projections with the square planet 11th being a catalyst, flip/flop between either 'hiding out' and withdrawing or totally immersing oneself in an 'other' to the point of ego exitinction - which, in one sense, is the purpose of the evolutionary state - to recognize the 'relativity' of the ego, but to do so with consciousness (one aspect of the 11th placement) and with coherent values (2nd) and with inner security (4th). I would say that the very structure of their desires is leading to the inner confrontation with truth (NN 8th, ruler 9th) and this would lead to various relationships that would further these confrontations to get, eventually, to actual natural reality. These relationships, and inner honesty would be a catalyst into taking proper responsibilty and direction. Ideally the natural archetypes of both cancer (4th) and capricorn (10th) would be realized - fusing these polarities, within the duality of 2nd/8th via community, objectivity, healing trauma, becoming conscious, perhpas of past life traumas, as well, and confronting actual reality versus projections based on lies and insecurity this soul would capable of moving into an inner relationship wherein their focus of consciousness could turn it's energies to the apparent source of their 'problems' the ego, and within that focus the ego to it's source, the soul which will eventually beg the question & reality of that source...the Great Spirit.
Hi Lucius,
Yes ........... good work !
Rad
Here is a first effort. I have again waited to read everyone else's postings.
EA Assignment: Pluto 4th, s.n. 2nd w/ruler 11th & n.n. ruler 9th; just at cusp of entry into spiritual evolutionary stage.
This soul has recently had and is having lifetimes in search of inner emotional security. In efforts to achieve this security through others, she/he has faced the dissapointment of not actually having their emotional needs met. This experience has thrown them back upon their self over and over in the development learning to be secure in them self.
Recent efforts to achieve the inner emotional security are seen in a dualistic pattern within this individual that is experienced as the bottom line matrix of their entire reality experience-day to day, hour by hour, moment by moment. On the one hand, in response to shock of unfulfilled inner security through another, this person naturally falls back onto thyself as their solo source to achieve what needs to happen in life. They have determined the essence of their own emotional(and becoming spiritual) values by a continual process of casting off all definitions of who they are not that have been projected upon them. These projection do not resonate with the essence of who they are.
Yet, in the process of casting off and "shedding the skin" of unfit definitions of who they are and what they value, he/she realized that part of their values included deep sharing experiences with others. S/he felt drawn to, in past lives, belief systems and life philosiphies that were expereinced through the osmosis of the "union" with, submergine into the teacher/teachings of the corresponding beliefs and teachings.
In noticing that the ruler of the south node is in a waning square to the south node, and is in a waxing square to the north node.
Rad, does this tell us that the challenges regarding self metamorphosis are newer and more challenging than defining self values and knowing of essence of inherit potentials? and that the "crisis in consciousness" of casting off all that does resonate with essence of the self (sn ruler waning square to sn 2nd) is an older pattern?
If this is true, we can they know that along the path to defining and redefining the essence of who they really are(leading to greater inner security), they reached a crossroads symbolized by the waning square of sn ruler to sn. At this crossroads, they had a crisis in their conscious mind in the continuation of transforming the definition of who they are at the core level and what that means in terms of emotional security within the self. In response to this crisis of consciousness, they began to then look outside of their self and desired to merge with sources of power that embodied a wisdom greater than their own. The waxing square of the sn. ruler to the north node, in light of pluto in the forth, reveals two aspects. While skipping ahead to this experience, a couple things resulted. First, they had not completed defining exactly who they are and what resonates at a core level. (Skipped step sn ruler to sn.) Without fully realizing their own essence, they did not realize the source of all their emotional experiences to the point of acheiving emotional security from within their self. Second, as a result of jumping into these new learning experiences(sn ruler square nn), they experienced a "crisis in their actions". This was not to say that there was intrinsic flaws within the teachings or teacher that they had embraced. Rather, once again, it goes back to the fact that they were again searching, probably unconciously up until the crisis, for emotional security through another, in this case a teacher type figure-one who posessed a greater knowledge and percieved self power then they saw them self having. Two results of skipping ahead depend on whether or not the crisis was internal or external. If internal, the ruler of sn would symbolize the inner mental awareness that something in the teaching or teacher was not fitting who they were/are. As they were trying on new teachings they saw that it did not fully fit the defining of who they are/were in that moment. Feeling totally out of balance with an irrational over-invested emotional energy in their experience with a teacher they chose to cast off the relationship and teaching. The external crisis would result in the situation where the individual became so invested in the "other" source for power which = security, that a confrontation ensued and the infamous rug was pulled out to throw them back on him/her self again. Again, in light of the 4th house pluto, once the relationship to the teacher became out of balance and there was an over-investment of energy in this person/experience, this would lead up to an intellectual/spiritual confrontation(evolutionary stage). The confrontation came from the need for the soul to continue to eliminate obstacles in it's way to "return to the source".
Based on the evolutionary stage and signature, would we know that the experience of "confrontation" in this case would more likely to come from within-in the form of internal itellectual confrontation with self?
So, asking the question "What has constituted this person's emotional security before and why?" we go back to this duality within the soul. On one hand, the experience of being one's own source and defining and "redefining their self" was the path to this emotional security. And on the other hand, each moment they were/are experiencing an opposite desire to have a metamophosis of self by merging with a body of knowledge, teaching, way of life that is greater then who they are. Because of the duality of desire, they have been greatly challenged and experienced repeated crisises in having emotional security before, torn in each moment between two opposite paths to emotional security. Seeing that both node rulers are inconjunct pluto, we know that there have been many crisis along the path to achieving what constitutes emotional security. And so, both, moment to moment, would have alternately constituted emotional security.
And so, in this life, what constitutes their inner emotional security is resolving the issues surrounding pluto polarity point(10th), the south node and its ruler through the north node and its ruler. So, to put this another way, they will not be able to resolve the issues surrounding who they are at their essence by detaching and casting off the world around them. Quite opposite, in this life what will constitute emotional security is finding a body of knowledge and metamorphorisizing their self thru submergion in these teachings. In this place, they will be able to potentially complete the definition of who they are, what they value, and what emotional and spiritual resources that they naturally have. In this resolution of the past through continuation on the future path, they will experience emotional security.
Watch for the family of origin to contain relationships where the individual was not really understood, or at least had the experince of not fitting in and casting off the ways of life that had been taught from an early age. Within this, family relationships would be potentially supportive in physical ways, but experienced as not fulfilling the individuals inner emotional and developing spiritual needs.
This early family experience created what we call "displaced emotions". The results of not having emotional needs met early on led to the deep feeling of vulnerability. The individual was left with deep feelings of needing to be nurtured. They lacked a sense of security as a result. This created a relationship with their self in which they veiwed their self as the only source of security that they could fully trust. Inside, it was much easier to take care of things alone. Thus, their relationship to self became based on fear and distrust of others being trusted with fulfilling their needs. Yet, as stated earlier, the felt within, in every moment, their desire to merge with others to expand the known limits of what they could take care of by them self. So, we see the inner relationship to self existing as a constant duality of complete self sustaining momentum on one hand and merging and metamorphosis with another learning experience on the other.
This soul values both the ability to be self sufficient as well as the expanding of self limitations through merging with other teachings/beliefs. This soul values learning experiences that lead to redefining the essence of who they are. This soul values relationships in which the other can feel and intuite "˜where they are at'. Relationships where the other gives them the freedoms they need, and where the other is sensitive and accepting to their inherent moody nature. They value all of these things because they will resonate on a deep level as necasary elements to establishing their own inner security. This soul, based on evolutionary state, will ultimately value relationships where the other does not allow them to dominate and control the relationship nor create an imbalance of over nuturing/controlling them. This soul will have realized that these types of relationship dynamics will only lead to further emotional dissapointment. Real meaning for them, as seen in the northnode 8th and ruler 9th is submerging into a spiritual way of life that completely transforms the definition of who they are. What they will be learning will resonate at deep core level, and by this they will know that what they are now learning is the most real in terms of what means anything in life. This embraced knowledge will include tools that the individual learns which help process and integrate their displaced emotions, which then leads to more inner emotional security. In this sense, the teach would be the vehicle of the knowledge, the knowing is what will "set them free". Hence, real meaning.
Based on this relationship to self, we can see that this person would be forming relationships with others who are also going through or have come though complete metamorphosis of who they are by embracing a resonant life philosophy/spiritual path. As stated, they will also gravitate to relationships where there is some emotional understanding of their inner nature. This type of relationship will nurture this person in the way of allowing, acceptance, and understanding of who they are-which they didn't have earlier in life. And, at the same time, attracting people who understand the need to go solo sometimes and the acceptance of and freedom to continue to cast off old, nonfunctional definitions of who they were taught to be.
From the point of view of the past, we would except to see this persons gut instinct to take care of their own business as they "do their thing" out in the world. And yet, we would see that they carry with them a desire to find the right "other" thing that they could merge with to learn the accomplishment of combined forces in achieving positive change and progress. What is intense is this duality we've been talking about all along. S/he is torn constantly, in every moment, between staying totally self contained and opening up to sharing power, and risking the vunerability there in.
Prior to this life, as suggested earlier, this soul has had the repeated trauma of being thrown back onto thyself. This happened in his/her's early attempts to step out of their own bubble of self security(although not complete). Also, this soul created the trauma of not being understood by immediate family members-at least having that experience from their own perspective. They had the trauma of having to live with the emotional wounds of having their deepest emotional needs go unfulfilled. They have also had experienced traumas of opening up to others emotionally only to feel completely betrayed. On the flip side, they have had the trauma of not connecting with the cultures they were born into and recreating their own meanings and self values. All of these traumas were created to bring the soul back to the place of learning to establish and meet their deepest emotional needs by them self.
All of these past life traumas affect their entire emotional body, whether they are by their self or with others. They are emotionally continually experiencing great extremes of mood and feeling just below the surface of the mask they wear as a result of these traumas. Because of the traumas, what constitutes security is both deep sense of self knowing and also a very conscious choosing of who to let into their inner space. For basic functional security reasons, they will only allow a few to really be close to them and know them. What is valued in relationships then is the real deep connection and knowing and trust that results in a healthy sense of support and nurturing. This is in the most positive manifestation. The traumas still will affect their ability to interact with others because of the nature of "triggers" that can flood them with the pain of the original traumas. Based on the amount of "emotional self realization" and "clearing" and integration of the fragmented parts of their emotional body, we will see an increasing potential to interact with the world in ways that are truely inspired by belief and have a deepening sense of established participation.
If shadow forms manifest, on some subtle level the individuals actions will swing back and forth from a "no trust-I'll just do it myself" approach to desire to manipulate and control the power of others which they come in contact with. Both polarities are rooted in unconscious displaced emotional needs that have yet to be delt with, which are a byproduct of the traumas of the past.
Thanks for taking time to read. All feedback is greatly appreciated. Realize I have yet to interweave in the pluto polarity point thoroughly.
Many thanks,
b
Hi Bradley,
"In noticing that the ruler of the south node is in a waning square to the south node, and is in a waxing square to the north node.
Rad, does this tell us that the challenges regarding self metamorphosis are newer and more challenging than defining self values and knowing of essence of inherit potentials? and that the "crisis in consciousness" of casting off all that does resonate with essence of the self (sn ruler waning square to sn 2nd) is an older pattern? "
**************************************************************************
These evolutionary processes are simultaneous to one another as they interact and interplay with one another at all times within the Soul of this person.
*************************************************************************
"The external crisis would result in the situation where the individual became so invested in the "other" source for power which = security, that a confrontation ensued and the infamous rug was pulled out to throw them back on him/her self again. Again, in light of the 4th house pluto, once the relationship to the teacher became out of balance and there was an over-investment of energy in this person/experience, this would lead up to an intellectual/spiritual confrontation(evolutionary stage). The confrontation came from the need for the soul to continue to eliminate obstacles in it's way to "return to the source".
Based on the evolutionary stage and signature, would we know that the experience of "confrontation" in this case would more likely to come from within-in the form of internal itellectual confrontation with self?"
**************************************************************************
The confrontations has and will include 'others' at key points in the Souls evolutionary journey, others who necessarily confront the individual in order to help him/ her 'objectify' itself in a variety of ways. The Soul sets up or creates these necessary confrontation in order to 'liberate' from any existing emotional/ psychological dynamic that is being held onto so tightly that that which is being held onto is preventing the ongoing evolutionary intentions for this Soul. Of course the individual, at times, will have a extremely defensive reaction to these confrontations and withdraw from the circumstance or person(s)..groups.. that create them. And yet this very withdrawal based on a defensive reaction itself must be, at critical points, objectified by the Soul because, of itself, it correlates to necessary emotional, psychological, and Soul knowledge that must be objectified in order for evolution to proceed.
***************************************************************************
Bradley: You have done an incredible job with this analysis. You have demonstrated a great awareness of the flow of the the EA paradigm in this case: of cause and effect. It is a great joy to experience your own evolution and growth as reflected in our practice charts. Bravo !
If you choose to write more on the 10th House polarity point remember that this polarity point has also been in operation prior to the current life due to the fact that the ruling planet of the S.Node is square to the N and S Nodes.
Rad
Rad - so, if one of the rulers of the nodes is square the nodes this indicates the PPP has already been developed?
I understood that any planet squaring nodes implies both nodes have been actualized to some extent - thus a flip/flop and need for resolution.
Is this the case (PPP being already somewhat actualized) with only a ruler of a node i.e., not just any planet squaring nodal axis, it must be one of the rulers? And could be the ruler of either node?
And this only applies within the context of a square aspect...?
Thanks.
Thanks again for feedback, support, and this tip on ppp.
So, a clarifying question with square to nodes. You said it is always simultaneous, that the waning pattern is not older than the waxing square. In light of this, and this does make sense to me, it is still right to use the 'crisis in action' and 'crisis in consciousness' respectively to the nodes in aspect to, as I've done here?
Hi Lucius,
Quote from: Lucius on Dec 22, 2009, 05:08 PM
Rad - so, if one of the rulers of the nodes is square the nodes this indicates the PPP has already been developed?
I understood that any planet squaring nodes implies both nodes have been actualized to some extent - thus a flip/flop and need for resolution.
Is this the case (PPP being already somewhat actualized) with only a ruler of a node i.e., not just any planet squaring nodal axis, it must be one of the rulers? And could be the ruler of either node?
And this only applies within the context of a square aspect...?
Thanks.
****************************************************************************
Any time there are skipped steps , whether it's one of the ruling planets of the Nodes or not, the polarity point of Pluto has also been activated in fits and starts as well. Thus, to resolve the skipped steps is to, at the same time, activate the Pluto polarity point in a consistent way. Rad
HI Bradley,
Quote from: Bradley J on Dec 23, 2009, 05:28 AM
Thanks again for feedback, support, and this tip on ppp.
So, a clarifying question with square to nodes. You said it is always simultaneous, that the waning pattern is not older than the waxing square. In light of this, and this does make sense to me, it is still right to use the 'crisis in action' and 'crisis in consciousness' respectively to the nodes in aspect to, as I've done here?
****************************************************************************
Yes..........a crisis in action ignites a crisis in consciousness, and a crisis in consciousness ignites a crisis in action .................... Rad
Hey Rad,
Could you explain the rational for why a planet squaring the nodes finds integration through the node to which it forms a waxing square?
Is it because the waxing square represents a need to consciously ACT in order to find integration?
Lucius- it is great to have you here, welcome
Rad- it is a great joy to have a teacher. Thanks again
Ari,
Quote from: ari moshe on Dec 24, 2009, 04:17 PM
Hey Rad,
Could you explain the rational for why a planet squaring the nodes finds integration through the node to which it forms a waxing square?
Is it because the waxing square represents a need to consciously ACT in order to find integration?
**************************************************************************
Because that is the Node that last formed a conjunction to planet squaring it. The mean motion of the Nodes is RETROGRADE. Thus, the planet that is forming a square to the Node that last formed a conjunction to it is APPLYING to that Node. *************************************************************************
Rad
Hi Ari, Linda, Bradley, Lucius or anyone else that wants to join our little group,
Let me know if you guys want to start a new practice chart and if you want to begin to add a another layer to it ... i.e. Pluto and Nodes and ruling planets in signs ?
Rad
yes! im ready for another layer
are you saying the rational is that integration has to happen via the node it's applying to because that's the next node in line so to speak? Meaning, if I'm moving through a circle and i'm going to move over two points- clearly the first point that i move over is the one im going to have to address first. do i understand this correctly?
Quote from: Rad on Dec 30, 2009, 11:07 AM
Hi Ari, Linda, Bradley, Lucius or anyone else that wants to join our little group,
Let me know if you guys want to start a new practice chart and if you want to begin to add a another layer to it ... i.e. Pluto and Nodes and ruling planets in signs ?
Rad
Hi Rad and students,
Thanks for your tutoring and patience in regard to my "beginner" status. I have just received Segment One of the School's EA Course and am absorbing it now.
I'm ready to continue. I could probably do with more practice without the signs, but "jumping in the deep end" is not a bad idea either.
I had not presented an indepth examination of the PPP, 8th and 9th, but just touched upon these. I will expand on these throughout the next layer of this practice chart.
Much appreciation toward our group!
Rad,
That sounds great.
I'll still be posting my addition w/ppp to the previous.
Of course, I still had in my head to ask if there was anything else that you know of this assignment that we did not yet show an in depth understanding of.
Thanks,
b
Continuing with Pluto in forth: Integration of the Pluto Polarity Point.
In asking the question, "What constituted inner emotional security in this soul's past?" while keeping in mind that the skipped steps square of south node ruler to the nodal axis, we can know that experiences that fall within the realm of the "˜10th house' would be part of what brought a growing sense of inner security in their karmic past.
In other words, part of what has brought inner emotional security into their life(past lives and present) has been experiences where s/he was learning to establish him/her self in the community/culture-to establish her/himself as an individual and with a personal authority. In their quest to constantly define and redefine(transform) the essential definition of who they were, they were drawn into metamorphic relationships that taught them how to use their own power in the outer culture/community. By being close with specific individuals for specific periods of time, they were learning via osmosis by being in the other's lifestyle. This "˜other' could have been a person or a body of knowledge-in either case they were learning to define for his/herself, through these experiences, their own definition of individual established power and authority in culture/community.
In early childhood, we can expect to see this pattern of the pluto polarity point being active show up by learning of specific family from their youth which she/he learned from the behavior they modeled; behaviour which taught how they achieved a successful "˜place in the world'. This "˜family member', which could have been one of the parents, caretaker, grandparent, aunt, uncle, family friend, etc. The common pattern here is that someone was modeling "˜ways to make it' in the world that internally this soul was drawn to/chose to experience for evolutionary nessecity. As a result of a closer relationship with this family member, they continued to transform their self definitions thru the learning experiences therein. This early childhood pattern has most likely been repeating in the past few lifetimes. We need exact degree aspects to discuss this point further.
What we can say about the above activation of the ppp is that these experiences would have simultaneously carried the same dynamics discussed previously-about having "˜displaced emotions' from childhood and youth experiences because in his/her experience of reality, different emotional needs were going unmet and or unnoticed.
Another point here is that it is possible that the family member that he/she was in close relationship was modeling abusive use of self power. This sets up the confrontation met when he/she reaches the point/age where their re-defining of who they are awakes the realization that this person and their actions do not resonate at a core level with who they are. The confrontation would symbolized a cataclysmic evolutionary juncture. For this person to have reached a point of development to feel internally secure enough to make a choice/values call which affects their immediate "˜place in the world', via the confrontation and resulting removal of existing relationship/or conditions their in, to have reached this level of security is a big deal-it shows growth in their own emotional security to come forth with their own authority in this way-demonstrating their own power and how they would use it.
On the flip side of this possibility is that he/she, at a certain karmic juncture, had not yet felt secure enough in the definition of who they are to exercise their own personal power in their world. The resulting confrontation with this "˜teacher' figure/family member would be a challenging experience because of the nature of the forced removal of the relationship.
We can stretch this by using an example of relationship to a body of knowledge. For example, let's say that in early childhood and youth, s/he has a dominating parent. The parent controls what they can and can not do a lot. (one possibility of 4th pluto) As s/he grows up, s/he sees how their parent achieves power and security for the family by being disciplined and knowing how to "˜play the game"˜ of reality. This parent is driven by a specific religion which teaches the ways in which to "˜play the game'. Then, at a certain age, s/he finds a book that teaches another spiritual path to life. The book and knowledge must be hidden because the parent's disapproval. I will not go on with this example here, but I use it to demonstrate how we see all these dynamics begin to emerge. In this example, notice the dynamics surrounding his/her inner emotional security(pluto 4th) and their definition of their own values(sn. ruler inconjunct pluto) and the specific life philosophy/teaching/religion/spirituality in which they choose(nn ruler inconjunct pluto). In both cases, we can begin to see the dynamics that lead into the evolutionary necessary crises that they have been going thru.
Based on all the above and previous post, what else can we say about the types of relationships that s/he forms. The intense unions s/he forms is with others who have also gone thru not only significant transformations of how they define their selves; also have had self metamorphosis via powerful emotional/spiritual confrontations around people in their life who, like our soul example, have also experienced both issues surrounding both 4th house and 10th house affairs. Their relationships will reflect that what the "˜other' has learned thru saturation into their life experiences will reflect an approach to life that contains teachings of how to use individual power and establish personal authority in the world.
Moving on, from the past karmic point of view, we can shed some more light on the internal struggle of this person. How do they integrate their own definition of who they are at a core level while going thru a metamorphosis via what they are learning by being submerged in another's life philosophy/path? Well, the answer is through the north node, with it's ruler facilitating this. So, having said this: A-what is going to be thier instinctual action and B-what will be the integrating path?
First, in the case of A, they are torn between simply "˜pulling their own weight' and going back to learning thru their experience of sharing the process. So, we would see them doing both all the time.(or at least know at all times both of these desires exist) Now, in the case of B-what to do, or "what, should we as counselors suggest as a path to walk?" we should keep in mind from Pluto book One, Jeffery Wolf Green writes: "When Pluto applies to the north node, then the polarity point of Pluto and the south node with its planetary ruler, must be integrated thru the north node with its ruling planet facilitating the process." In this case, it is the ruler of the south node applying to the north node. Yet, basically, the past karma can only a resolved, meaning that s/he will achieve inner emotional security by this soul sharing on deep levels because they are learning from this about how they define their self, their values, their personal resources-all this needs to be shared by putting it in context of over-arching life perspective/philosophy/spiritual teaching. It is through this experience that s/he will evolve into both being emotionally secure with and learning to establish their self as an individual as part of society and use their power there-in.
Going back to the repeated past karmic experience of being thrown back upon their self, their establishing and using their own power out in the world can be added to the list of catalysts that triggered these past life crises. I will not restate all the other possible dynamics of this particular forth house pluto that also could have led to the crises, but wanted to acknowledge that there are certainly evolutionary catylists that stem from both, the archetype of pluto's house(4th) and polarity point (10).
So, we have established that this soul has already made efforts to establish their self out in the world. We see that how they define this personal use of power is transforming thru time. At this evolutionary stage, it is important for them to continue to learn from a spiritual teaching, via a submergion in this path, to success in achieving the self definition of their own values that will lead to the inner emotional security that will truely support them in establishing who they are becoming and their new found place in community/society.
Thanks for taking the time to read. All feedback is welcome.
And, Rad, my question from my previous post-have we specifically missed an important dynamic of this signature, or any noticeable subtle interpretation variation therein which would be worth noting?
Ari,
Quote from: ari moshe on Dec 30, 2009, 11:14 AM
yes! im ready for another layer
are you saying the rational is that integration has to happen via the node it's applying to because that's the next node in line so to speak? Meaning, if I'm moving through a circle and i'm going to move over two points- clearly the first point that i move over is the one im going to have to address first. do i understand this correctly?
*****************************************************************
Yes ............................... Rad
Hi Bradley,
Very, very good work. The only two things that I feel we have not discussed, mentioned, analyzed, to the point that it should have been is the nature and affects of prior life traumas. Typically, in the paradigm that we have been working with , such a Soul will literally be born with PTSD from birth. And when a Soul is born like that it is very, very important to understand the affects of the PTSD on the current life behavior and why, and how that, of itself, can continue to undermine or impede the ongoing evolution of the Soul. And within such a discussion of how to work with not only this Soul, but any Soul, that is born with unresolved traumas that cause the PTSD at birth. Beyond this all who have participated in working with this paradigm have done remarkably well.
The other thing is the issue of this Soul's sexuality. When we have the Nodal Axis in the 2nd/ 8th the issue of sexuality is a very powerful issue. In the paradigm with have been working with, given the 4th House Pluto, the ruler of the S.Node squaring both Nodes, this issue of sexuality becomes even more important to understand especially given the issue of a recent gender switch: 4th House Pluto.
Rad
Rad,
How common would we see, keeping in mind gender switch(4th pluto) and the 2nd/8th nodes both active in past lives, past and present same sex sexual experiences?
Besides the common, if not repressed, feeling of being a woman in a man's body or visa versa, would this be a common signature of trans-gender and or sex changes and/or gender identity switching?
Keeping in mind the nodal rulers here(11th and 9th) are we also to see these sexual experiences, both with self and others, to be a soul searching to define what they value and identify with at core levels in terms of their own sexuality?
thanks,
bradley
Bradley,
Quote from: Bradley J on Jan 04, 2010, 11:56 AM
Rad,
How common would we see, keeping in mind gender switch(4th pluto) and the 2nd/8th nodes both active in past lives, past and present same sex sexual experiences?
****************************************************************************
In this signature, relative to the Soul's evolutionary stage, there would be an intense rebellion, S.Node ruler in the 11th, against the social/ societal consensus of how traditional gender is defined: the 10 th House Pluto polarity. This kind of Soul would know WHAT THEY ARE NOT. And that means not a traditional male or female. The 11th House ruler of the S.Node would want to naturally experiment with 'different' forms and ways of being sexual. Because of the recent gender switch there would be a natural attraction to the gender they have just come from whether it was male or female. As a result, it would be 'common' in this signature for the Soul to have bisexual inclinations and desires. Bisexuality, of itself, is and 11th House, Uranus, and Aquarius archetype.
Within this dynamic the Soul has had, and will have, an unpredictable sexual need or rhythm. This is seen via the S.Node ruler being in the 11th. Thus cycles of intense need, N.Node in the 8th, cycles of no need because the sexual energy will have seemed to evaporate, this is the S.Node ruler in the 11th, and and unpredictable sexual need as a result. This can and has created confrontation with partners in other lives who have had their sexual/ emotional needs go unmet because this Soul has had these cycles where the sexual energy has simply been 'detached' from: evaporated. In turn this has caused such partners them to project upon this Soul all kinds of psychological 'stuff' on this Soul which, of itself, has been wounding and can and has caused the the Soul to retreat even further from such partners.
Within this the Soul has had, and will have, a strong masturbatory orientation: the S.Node in the 2nd. Even in the context of a relationship this Soul would still have the desire and need to masturbate. And this of course has and can create problems with insecure, 4th House Pluto, N.Node in the 8th, partners. Males who have this signature can have a kind of worship of the phallus. Females can have a kind of worship of the vagina. The worship part comes from the sense of 'power' that these sexual organs contain and symbolize. Accordingly, at this stage of evolution, it can lend itself to having bisexual attractions.
And because of unresolved traumas over many recent lifetimes, this leading to PTSD, there is a fracturing within the Soul that can not fully engage life itself. It is detached from within itself because of. These kind of Soul would typically speak about itself in a detached or objective way: in the third person. As if their life was a movie that they are watching. Sexually, this will translate into needing various forms of intense sexuality so as to feel engaged in the sexual act whether that is different forms of masturbation, and/ or in relationship with another.
*************************************************************************
Besides the common, if not repressed, feeling of being a woman in a man's body or visa versa, would this be a common signature of trans-gender and or sex changes and/or gender identity switching?
Keeping in mind the nodal rulers here(11th and 9th) are we also to see these sexual experiences, both with self and others, to be a soul searching to define what they value and identify with at core levels in terms of their own sexuality?
**************************************************************************
It is not common for this signature to seek out sex change operations in order to revert back to their former sex. This can happen in a very small percentage of those with this signature and will only occur when such a Soul feels that there is something left over from the prior sex that was not yet finished. It is common for these Souls, at this stage of evolution, to feel trans-gendered, bisexual, and androgynous.
**************************************************************************
thanks,
bradley
Rad
Hi Gonzalo, Bradley, Linda, Ari, and Lucius,
I think it's best, just now, to stay with a more simply practice chart versus putting Pluto, the Nodes, and their planetary rulers in signs and houses. So let's have Pluto in the 8th House, the S.Node in the 5th, it's planetary ruler is the 3rd, the N.Node in the 11th, and it's planetary ruler in the 7th. The evolutionary stage will be 3rd Stage consensus.
So let's have a go at it.
Rad
Thank you Rad for another practice opportunity.
Pluto in the 8th
South node in the 5th, ruler in the 3rd
North node in the 11th, ruler in the 7th.
Aspects: Pluto primary square to the south node
Grand trine between North node, south node ruler, and north node ruler
South node sextile both rulers.
Pluto inconjunct south node ruler, north node ruler
Third stage individuated.
In previous life times, this soul has been seeking to transform itself beyond any attachments and dynamics that have blocked the soul (Pluto in the 8th). The desire has been to awaken to a sense of security that is not contingent on outside circumstances, but comes from within (Pluto polairty in the second).
There was a time in which this soul was a writer, or communicator of some sort. The idea here is their mind (3rd house) has been the primary tool through which they were able to express themselves (5th house) in a way that was encouraged and validated by others, and inspiring (5th house). The intent has been to grasp some core ideas around how life operates (8th house), and put them into words. The skilfullness in this soul is their natural ability to perceive (3rd house) the underlying dynamics of life around them (pluto in the 8th) and express it in creative ways (5th house).
Question: can you help me understand more about how the inconjucnt between pluto and the nodal rulers would have manifested in previous lifetimes?
However there have been powerful experiences through which the self esteem of this soul has been greatly effected, resulting in a great fear of being seen, and a lack of confidence in their creative worth (Pluto squaring sn in 5th). They were persecuted, killed, attacked, blocked, horridly manipulated (8th house key words), for expressing themselves (5th house). It has resulted in a pattern of dissociating from being who they are- to close their heart and not share their gifts (Pluto square 5th house south node).
They have developed a strong degree of self consciousness around who they are. Inwardly needing great approval, yet fearing rejection. This inner reality has created a distorted dynamic in which they attract partners, and other people whom will admire them. They will tend to use whatever tool belt of social skills they have (3rd house) as a way to manipulate their environments and get attention (5th house Pluto square). The way that looks will vary greatly- if we're looking at a pisces sn then they will not even notice their need for attention, though be seeking it all the time and tend to resentfully feel like they are always focused on other people. If we are looking at the south node in Capricorn, then this soul will want others to see their solidity and be constantly trying to portray the image (5th house) of being masterful and capable (Capricorn).
Their relationship with the father will be very revealing. Most likely a situation of sexual abuse (pluto). or intense psychological manipulation in which the father only shared love on certain ego centric contingencies.
Gaining affection from others is very important for this soul. However what they truly have to work on is opening up their own heart. Their need to be loved and validated has lead to a dynamic in which they are outwardly detached and comfortable with who they are (11th house north node), but inwardly deeply hurt and unresolved. In order to stop finding co-vert ways to feel special (5th house), they have the opportunity in this life to actually give birth to something that can in fact only come through them.
This may happen via having children- or writing a book. Anything that puts them in the special role as creator. By having actually BIRTHED something, they then have the ability to reflect on their special nature as creator, and in so doing reclaim their original sense of power.
Once that is done, they then have the opportunity to be truly detached from their creation, as the need to prove their specialness is no longer present. Ultimately, they will find themselves a part of a community of people, or a shared social purpose with others, who don't just apprecaite who they are, but also share the same values. This soul can simply be present in this community and know that it has something special to contribute. Finally, building healthy, balanced relationships will be possible. This soul will develop a more brilliant, objective capacity to see people for who they are, and write about it (11th house north node, trining 7th house ruler which is trine south node ruler in 3rd both INCONJUNCT pluto). The inconjunct to Pluto, to me implies, that they have an inward push in this life to do lots of research and interviews (3rd and 7th) and explore other people (7th) in order to understand the underlying dynamics behind human motivation (pluto in the 8th). They may do studies about mutli cultural manifestations of sexual abuse etc.
Their ability to develop a strong capacity for this communication (inconjunction between pluto and rulers) is contingent on their constant need to in fact look into themselves (pluto in the 8th) and notice their own emotional responses to other people (7th house) and to other information (third house).
This soul also has the ability to become a counselor that has a very sharp and penetrating ability to understand the psychological bottom life behind a person's reality.
The Pluto polarity here is activated through their complete sharing of themselves in the context of making a collective change- i.e no more unresolved issues of needing to focus exclusively on themselves all the time. They then feel the inner space to internalize their own process and stop manipulating their environment to feel special.
At some point, can we look into possibly health issues that may come up for this soul? I dont know enough to talk about it- but I would love to hear what others may know
oh whoops- i wrote mine for third stage individuated. ill re-do it later...
Hi Gonzalo,
Exceptional analysis. All of it would be true. However, one of the core, ongoing, lessons of this Soul as reflected in the N.Node in the 11th, ruler in the 7th, the Pluto square to the Nodes, is to evolve beyond an orientation to him/herself and all the egocentric power that you have rightly identified, to actualizing a creative role in which the Soul in defined by helping others. A social role that would benefit others, society, in very meaningful ways in which he would learn to 'hear', the 7th House, others and their needs as they actually exit for these others: opposed to giving to others what the Soul 'thinks' they need according to it's own subjective reality. Giving instead of taking. In essence, the Soul is learning to be an equal among others, not a 'Zarathustra' type in which the Soul not only considers itself as something special and more important as compared to others, and others then expected to server him as you pointed out, but an EQUAL AMONG OTHERS. And this would be true in his/her intimate relationships as well.
Extremely well done Gonzalo ...............
Rad
Sounds great, beginning to reread and work on this.
Hi Rad,
Ari and Gonzalopan are moving at a much faster pace to Bradley and I who need at least a week, sometimes two, of study.
Perhaps we could have two Practice Chart threads? - one for the beginners, and one for the more advanced students?
Just feel like I'm holding the others up.
Thanks.
Hi Linda,
Well, I don't feel that is necessary at all. I think the pace is fine for it gives all of us time to consider/ reflect on the practice chart at hand. This pace, to be honest, is also very good for me personally as I do have many other obligations and responsibilities to tend too.
Rad
I agree Rad.
Thank you!
Rad,
Glad to here this pace is good for more than one reason and person.
Yes, it is like, for myself, the difference between reading and mentally understanding vs. truly knowing to the point of speaking with certainty about the signatures. Also, the other responsibilities I have do keep me at this pace.
Blessings,
b
Gratefully, doing another- thank for you this continual opportunity to practice and learn.
Pluto in the 8th
South node in the 5th, ruler in the 3rd
North node in the 11th, ruler in the 7th.
Aspects: Pluto primary square to the south node
Grand trine between North node, south node ruler, and north node ruler
South node sextile both rulers.
Pluto inconjunct south node ruler, north node ruler
Third stage consensus
In previous lives, this soul has both incarnated in circumstances in which there was a great egoic need to fight at all costs in order to be seen and recognized by others (Pluto in 8th squaring 5th house), as well as, having been in intensely dis-empowering situations in which they were lacked the proper affection necessary for the building of their sense of specialness. This could have been caused by being harshly abused/ manipulated by their own father (Pluto in 8th squaring sn in 5th).
They may have lost something that came through them- be it their own children, their own social agenda... their heart.
This has lead the soul to develop a deep feeling of vulnerability- in not being beautiful, or significant, ultimately, in not being appreciated by others. These feelings have been a natural signal for the soul to do EVERYTHING in it's power to gain the attention and recognition it feels it needs. The ways in which it has done that has been primarily though it's ability to understand and communicate (third house ruler of sn) in ways that were enticing and attractive (5th house sn). It has used it's ability at speech, it's ability to look into the customs and trends of it's society, and know what to say, how to say it, to be acutely adoptable- all in ways that skillfully put them in the center of attention.
This soul has developed the ability to penetrate deeply into other people's realities- to extract whatever information, emotional reality, weakness, truth about others that provides a feeling of empowerment. In essence, being able to see the weakness in other people, and use that to their own advantage.
Given the square of Pluto to the 5th house south node, we see that issues around the 5th house are what needs to be resolved in order for evolution to occur in this life. This soul will ALSO have a pattern of dissociating- from stepping out of the picture so to speak. Inwardly feeling ignored, unseen, unappreciated. This is the 11th house north node- with the ruler in the 7th house, the soul will ATTEMPT be be detached, to be giving, to initiate intimacy with others (they can be easily succesful at attracting others and in being liked- grand trine and sextiles), however the attention they give towards others (7th house) according to other ppl's needs (7th house) will be completley distorted and filtered through their own need to give in order to be worshipped. There will naturally be a stressful tension between trying to give out of a real desire for relationship and sharing (Pluto squaring both nodes, nn ruler in 7th), yet, in the end TAKING of ppl's energy instead (7th house ruler inconjunct pluto in the 8th).
One psychological development that will often arise for this soul- is when they are in relationship, their awareness of people's ulterior motives for being in relationship with them, or ways in which they them self are being used- will DISTORT their actual ability to give other people much attention (7th house ruler inconjunct 8th house Pluto). They will feel overwhelmed with deceit and distrust towards others, that in the end, they will personalize everything- making it all a drama.
They can get very overwhelmed with being recognized, being appreciated, being loved by others- all the while lacking in a feeling of belonging- not feeling excited about the cause of life (pluto squaring sn in 5th).
In order to evolve, they have to focus fully on their actual role as creator. Birthing children, or birthing a project- which is defined by the sn ruler in the third house: something that allows them to engage their mind in such a way that they are brining into this world something of actual importance. This is different than just being the center of attention, but not really having anything to show. This soul needs to show them self that they in fact ARE special and have potential to bring more light into this world.
In all cases- be it birthing children, or writing a book, or doing something with children and education- the opportunity then exists for the soul to see their creation, and detach from identifying with it (11th house). In this way, evolution proceeds as it realizes that it has within itself (ppp) the ability to create and contribute something meaningful to the collective (11th house). This then allows for a true detachment (11th house nn), and an ability to actually listen to other people (7th house ruler)- and to set aside the feelings of distrust and manipulation that tends to come up. Being in relationships with others, for the sake of sharing and actually knowing another person according to who they are (7th house) will provide a continual opportunity for this soul to practice letting go of itself and face all of the above mentioned karmic patterns.
I'm contemplating the inconjunct between Pluto and the south node ruler in the 3rd. This aspect is highly descriptive of how this soul can shine forth. I feel it may relate to a tendency to look into the nature of things, with too much obsession, to the point that it looses actual objectivity and gets stuck in it's own needs to KNOW in order to feel empowered. According to my understanding of this aspect- the key it seems is learn how to not let that personal need for security to get in the way. I'd love more insight on that aspect as it relates to resolving the skipped step
Woa, currently, and while I was writing that last post- my friends have been watching this movie about a tyrannical evil power obsessed magician (Pluto in 8th squaring sn in 5th)- who really has nothing to show for himself other than all the fear he generates around him.
He goes around throwing fire from his palm (3rd house right? hands?) to kill people (8th house). And
I swear, he knows how to say just the "wrong" thing to make everyone around him feel weakened. Whenever there is any kind of softness or affection- his need for power brings him into this intense rage and need to re-assert his position, time and time again.
So he's on a search for the ULTIMATE power. He's from the middle ages, and his search is taking him into the future (11th house), to learn about computers (11th house), so that he can be more powerful than God (11th house distortion). HOWEVER! in order for him to do that he has to get a map (3rd house) from a child (5th house) first. Crazy shit. :P
The movie is called time bandits.
Hi Ari,
"I'm contemplating the inconjunct between Pluto and the south node ruler in the 3rd. This aspect is highly descriptive of how this soul can shine forth. I feel it may relate to a tendency to look into the nature of things, with too much obsession, to the point that it looses actual objectivity and gets stuck in it's own needs to KNOW in order to feel empowered. According to my understanding of this aspect- the key it seems is learn how to not let that personal need for security to get in the way. I'd love more insight on that aspect as it relates to resolving the skipped step"
***************************************************************************
This correlates to how the Soul communicates and learns to others, and how it takes in information from external sources. Relative to being the ruler of the S.Node , and that is square Pluto in the 8th, N.Node square in the 11th to that Pluto, this correlates with having crisis and conflict with the general reality of it's father who would expect his offspring to be an extension of himself. This Soul would desire to rebel against that expectation: N.Node in the 11th, ruler in the 7th..rebellion against this expectation. In the act of rebellion this means to rebel against the ideas and information coming from the father in order to individuate itself from that father: N.Node in the 11th. Thus, we would expect great intellectual battles and crisis with the father as the Soul attempts to define it's own reality on it's own terms in order to actualize itself from within itself: S.Node in the 5th relative to the Pluto polarity point being in the 2nd. And that polarity point also squares the N.Node in the 11th.
As the Soul gets older it will successfully individuate itself from the father by way of forming it's own ideas about life, and form it's own world view with those ideas. Relative to Pluto in the 8th the Soul will then become very invested in the power of those ideas: their rightness in order to feel secure...the 8th House Pluto. As a result it will attempt to impose those ideas, opinions, on every one in order to feel powerful, secure, and of course self-import: the center of the universe syndrome relative to the S.Node being in the 5th. And if anyone conflicted and dared to challenge those ideas, opinions, and world view, this then creating a psychological, Soul, crisis...waning inconjunct from the 3rd house ruler of the S.Node relative to Pluto in the 8th ... the Soul would then attempt to find the weak link in that person's arguments and attempt to tear those 'other' ideas apart in order to reinstate it's own as being right.
This will go on until one day the Soul will attract to itself another(s) who are as psychologically and intellectually adept as the Soul itself, others who will then have the ability to expose the weak links in the Souls well constructed world view via it's opinions. These others will have a very different world view and the ideas and opinions that go with that: the 11th House N.Node squaring the Pluto in the 8th, and the polarity point of Pluto itself. This will then shock the Soul into having to admit that there is more to know then simply originates from within itself. The waning inconjunct reflects a Scorpio archetype: confrontation. And its' kind of crisis creating confrontation to the Soul that serves as the vehicle for the Soul to adjust itself ... inconjunct .. so that it's evolution can proceed. And as it then proceeds it will begin the process of resolving it's own skipped steps. The Soul will then just then just be one among many, a Soul who is equal to all other Souls, a Soul who can listen to the relativity of reality without feeling insecure, a Soul who can then give to others what they actually need versus what the Soul thinks they need, and a Soul who can learn to give without any expectation of getting anything back other than the joy of giving for it's own sake. Finally, the Soul will learn to be a giver, not a taker.
You did a good job Ari to the extent that you developed this.
Rad
Pluto 8th - SN 5th - SN Ruler 3rd
Core orientation
The 8th house Pluto soul having experienced many metamorphoses over many lifetimes, possesses deep knowledge as to his own motivations, desires and patterns. He could be called a natural psychologist (8th). He understands himself, and so is able to extend his influence over others in his environment (3rd). Because he holds so much power over overs, he is able to unconsciously manipulate them (8th). This manipulation is carried out mainly through his communications, a superstructure of ideas, and compulsive talking (3rd). In his obsession for power (8th), he has been developing his mental powers and intellectual abilities (3rd) in order to create his special destiny (5th) to effect achievement in the world (3rd consensus) and to secure intellectual and emotional security (3rd).
He has learned how society works, and he is able to absorb the powerful symbols of community, society and country that he belongs to (3rd consensus). Even though he is aware of the relativity of moralities, values, religions, reflected in other countries and cultures, his attitude of "we are right, and they are wrong" (consensus) predominates. Declarations of nationalism and consensus opinions are expressed bombastically (5th), garrulously (3rd) and proudly (5th).
Special destiny and creativity
He senses a special purpose (5th) in the depths of his soul (8th) to be shaped through the strength of his own will (5th). In the past this special purpose has been actualized through the collection of a broad range of information, facts and data (3rd) limited to the herd stage (consensus). He is able to increase his understanding, seek out bottom line principles (8th), make connections to his physical environment (3rd), and communicate his knowledge to others (3rd). The universe revolves around his need for power and glory. Through his egocentric focus and deep knowledge he is able to actualize his creative essence. The evolutionary theme and necessity is creativity (5th) expressed through his unique and special capabilities in communication (3rd).
Communication
He has the ability to enthral and capture his audience (3rd) in an almost hypnotic way (8th) as he draws others to him. He would probably make a great salesperson to achieve his special purpose (5th) through his own efforts, with the steely determination to succeed (8th), charm and warmth (5th) and the silver tongue (3rd) to seize attention, enchant, beguile and captivate.
Power and Pyramid Structure
He has created a pyramid structure and placed himself at the very top (5th). He knows how much power he possesses (8th) for he knows who he is, what he knows (3rd), and how he has interpreted himself and life in general (consensus). This fixed unconscious soul pattern is a direct result of previous security patterns born of the last metamorphic event (8th). He has a desire to create (5th) a position of leadership in the upper strata of society (3rd consensus) through what he knows and has experienced (3rd). His need to assert his powerful will, strength and specialness (5th) over others can result in controlling others' lives, children (5th), siblings (3rd), lovers (5th) in varying degrees of compulsion and intensity. He is also aware of his own powerlessness, what he has not yet achieved in this level (consensus), what he yet does not know and has not experienced (3rd), and this is expressed in the desire to get ahead (consensus) and fuels the ongoing evolution of his Soul (8th).
Merging with Symbols of Power
Evolutionary necessity demands he merge with sources of power, such as great material abundance (consensus), creative self-expression that brings him love and attention (5th), a mass of knowledge, opinions, ideas and information (3rd) that would further his goals relative to his karmic condition (consensus): communication (all means), information, inquiry, language, literature, broadcasting, writing. He gravitates to the consensus ideas and opinions.
He unites with powerful symbols on all levels as he strives for positions of social importance, power, prestige, material abundance, political power, and business success (3rd consensus). Symbols of transformative power would be creativity, ideas, money, wealth, status, possessions, and social power. The intense drive to actualize these desires takes place via his own creative ideas (5th, 3rd) and his observation of the methods prevalent in his society. He is able to come up with new creative ideas from within that can bring success, social and financial power"¦and so he sits comfortably within the centre of his own universe, at the top of his pyramid structure of reality. He totally identifies with these powerful symbols (8th) because of the emotional and intellectual security they bring him.
Sex and Relationships
Since he has a compulsive need for love, attention and flattery (5th) he restlessly seeks continual involvement with others (3rd). He is able to penetrate to the core of others in order to understand more about them (8th). He has a compulsive evolutionary need for sex (8th, 5th) and most of these liaisons are of a temporary nature (3rd). These acts describe the metamorphosis of his personal limitations through the sexual act. He would desire to merge (8th) with powerful others who are transformative symbols in his life and who symbolize something he desires, or does not have, or a perceived need that is not being met (8th). The powerful others whom he would be attracted to would hold social importance, sexual power, prestige, status, material abundance, powerful positions in politics and business (consensus). Other symbols are powerful forms of self-expression, creativity, communication, knowledge and ideas. Others could also look to him as the transformative symbol in their lives. In an effort to secure love, attention and admiration from others, he could use his sexual charisma (8th), charm, magnanimity, sunny disposition (5th), and convincing and enticing communications (3rd) to charm his victims into bed.
These casual relationships would be characterised by compulsion (8th); the need to process himself through the release of emotional/mental energy (3rd); and the use of manipulative tactics so as to have his physical and emotional desires met (8th). Once these needs are met, he usually has no further use for the relationship (8th). Deep in his soul he is learning to choose a partner who will resonate with him (8th). He could use sex to get what he needs from the environment (3rd), and in this way he could attract past life connections where one or both have unconscious memories of being used, controlled and then abandoned (8th). Either way, the confrontations can result in irrational, retributive behaviour (8th), heated arguments (3rd), and the toppling of his reality structure (5th).
Control
Through a natural magnetism (8th) he is able to attract others who can help him in his quest for achievement (consensus). He can quite easily hold power over others (8th) because they tend to give their power away. He is able to manipulate others by focussing on the weakest area within them so as to manipulate and control them (8th). He also has the ability to focus on the weakest possible link in any expression or form of knowledge (3rd). He has a subconscious fear of having his own power undermined by another point of view (3rd), or by another person who challenges him (5th) in a competitive bid to achieve power in some consensus type way. He would feel intensely threatened by the power and creativity of others (5th) and could become vindictive (8th), defensive, pushy, loud, verbal (3rd) when others were given attention for their accomplishments, or who managed to better him in some way.
Confrontation
The function of confrontation serves to produce inner psychoanalysis, and to discover the behavioural patterns that control his life (8th). Karmic problem: he considers himself as the source of his own creativity, or overly identifies with the creative principle from an egocentric point of view (5th)"¦and so he will draw negative feedback, blocks, conditions or confrontations to bring him down to size. Ego blows from the environment (3rd) pop his balloon of self-inflation (5th) and result in transformation (8th). Another problem: new information directly undermines the existing intellectual foundation and results in emotional problems and intellectual implosions. He may show great resistance in changing his opinions (5th/8th fixed). Confrontation will occur until he is able to consider others' points of view.
His Pluto 8th squares the Nodal Axis and therefore he has skipped some steps in the past. These steps will be recovered through the resolution node, the 5th. Until then, he will seesaw back and forth over the nodes 5th/11th until he understands what was missed, and learns to develop and express what was missed in his life.
~ ~ ~
(To be continued"¦"¦.PP 2nd, NN 11th, NN Ruler 7th)
Hi Linda,
EXCELLENT so far ............simply excellent work .... it's a joy to experience your growth and evolution with this work !
Rad
Pluto 8th, south node 5th w/ruler 3rd, n.n. 11th w/ruler 7th; 3rd Stage Consensus
Bottom line, this soul has been seeking symbols of power to merge and unite with to expand upon the pre-existing limits of self power. This soul is and has been simultaneously attracted and repulsed by both of the following paths to metamorphosing the limits of their self. One path has been a compulsive need to merge with something greater to strictly serve as vehicle for attention, higher status, more ego power to creatively express his/her own ideas and opinions. The other path, quite the opposite, has been merging with something greater than self to become an objective viewer of their egocentric self, to realize a social place for their creative purpose.
Both polarities have brought great challenge to this soul in past lives as well as this one. First of all, part of them needs unending praise and attention for their inherent specialness(sn5). How they would be achieving this is through a developed ability to converse, talk, go on and on expressing their own ideas and opinions as long as they have an audience. (sn ruler 3) With an eight house pluto, we see that there is an inherit challenge here for this soul. We ask, "˜what is the natural stress between the 8th and 5th house?'. In this case, there have been many different karmic situations with a common thread for a soul in the 3rd stage consensus.
For example, we can assume this person's "˜power symbols' would be status(5th s.n.), money for own creative actualization, relationship(vehicle to receive praise, attention, and status), and sex(self satisfaction-5th and means to access power from another potentially-5th square 8th). In all of these situations, we can break it down into an underlying stress and what would happen as a result. First, let's say this person forms relationship with someone to feed their need to live a kingly/queenly lifestyle-marrying into power and money. They may have been really good at flirting and drawing in this mate with their conversation and sexuality( sn 5th, ruler 3rd). In this scenario, once the marriage continues thru time, how does this person continue to have all the attention they need from their mate? What happens when one of them begins to experience stagnation and lack of fire in the relationship? Ah ha!, tension is here: internal conflict. We must factor in the culture of birth and/or the culture/place in time of previous life to determine other stresses in this dynamic. For example, in mainstream american culture in the 50's, their would have been great societal pressure to maintain the marriage at all costs. Struggling with inner needs for growth(8th) as well as attention(5th) we see how this sets up the possibilities of A. a affair B. a divorce or C. continued holding onto security of marriage(8th) while being totally stressed that it is not meeting own needs (square to 5th). We must keep in mind the fact pluto is squaring the nodes here and this person is also partly repulsed about the ideas of having an affair as means of changing the situation. So, if they did, they may very well be simultaneously repulsed from an objective self perspective of not choosing another path to eliminate the aspect of their life that is outmoded and blocking further growth. Moving on...
In the example of money as a symbol of power for an 8th house pluto in late consensus, merging/uniting with someone who holds a lot of money is another situation in the karmic past. This would be achieved thru marriage(8th) or a business partnership. There are other ways that this could have been achieved-covert, manipulative, self serving in nature which I do not feel the need to go into at this point. But this is a point to keep in mind regarding the potential karmic retribution they may face in this lifetime from past actions. Regardless, we see an inner conflict (8th square 5th) in which part of their desires to connect with money in this example would be self/ego serving. This sets up a tension within the partnership, marriage or business. On one hand, we could see the confrontation external of the partner responding to what they perceive as being used and eliminating the union. Or, we see the potential of the inner confrontation of this soul having realized that the union is no longer fulfilling them-lack of attention, sex, no more money, partner doesn't have ability to grow with him/her are some situations that could arise. With the sn ruler in 3rd, we can know that one of these needs is talking about their self. They may even have driven a partner away from not being able to listen(give attention) to them go on and on about their ideas.
In the example of sex as a symbol of power, being in 3rd stage consensus we can speculate that their own sexuality(5th) set up stressful situations in which they may have had sex with individuals whom they were drawn to because of the power in society that they held. In this case, the act of sex would have been self serving means to "come into" the others life/power. Or, in a different example, we could image this person using their own allure (3rd/5th) to attract the situations they needed to access information which brought them greater power/status. Once having achieved a higher status spot, they still had to deal with the karmic results of these flirtatious/sexual actions to achieve an upper hand. In one more example, we could see a "˜positive"˜ manifestation of sex as a symbol of power-leading into marriage of higher status(8th). Again, this situation will still reveal inner stressful dynamics inherent in the square of pluto to the south node. Because it is the south node and also because we know it is unresolved(skipped step pluto applying to s.n.), I am not painting a picture of a more positive manifestation of sex as power symbol in this specific example.
Jumping back to the overall of this signature and assignment, it is clear that this soul has yet to fully develop it's own self identity and values (2nd-ppp). Yet, because of the pluto squaring the north node(11th) we know that they have begun to develop self sufficiency and self identity in the past(2). When an 8th house pluto person looses this part of self and/or has yet to develop it, we see the compulsion come out. This is the compulsive need to access their own power and identity thru union with something outside of their self, whether it is partner, spouse. In this case, with the south node in the 5th, without knowing signs, this outside power source could be a boss, consensus religion, a teacher, consensus deity, and on. Again, part of them is going to be repulsed by this compulsive side of their self and how it is so tied to feeding their own egocentric needs of adoration, attention, praise, honor/worshipping them. With the square of pluto to the north node, it reveals to us that how they previously have begun to form a self centered, personal value system, and sense of self sufficiency has been to begin to see their own special destiny and creative purpose from an objective perspective.(11) This objective awareness has been acquired by beginning to form relationships with a diversity of people. Through the "reflection", seeing parts of their self in others, they have become(objectively) aware of, to a certain degree, how their own special purpose can have an actual functional place in society.
Part of this soul's great dilemma is that these special creative attributes have not been fully developed in the past(pluto 8 square sn 5th). So, before they can find this niche in society(11) in which they can share their own creation with many others(7th), they first must do the karmic healing to go back and realize fully what their own creative purpose is(5th). It will only be through research, asking questions, and acquiring the right information(3rd) that they will be able to actualize this creative purpose. Once this healing and karmic work is done, then we can see them have growth experiences in which they merge with a greater power while still maintaining their own essence.(ppp) And, with this creative purpose realized, they can begin to bring this forth to the community and share their special talents with others.
With this signature, if the soul embraces the transformations in a positive way, we can see a lot of potential for a type of "life coach" for example. This type of profession, this person could use their ability to penetrate to the core of what and how another operates(8th), see from a objective view what may best serve them (11), and have learned to relate as equals(7th).
What are the past life traumas(nature of) and what type of karmic challenges have they set up for this soul? what are these "˜hurdles' which they must overcome?
First off, with a pluto in the 8th we know that their past merging with sources of greater power(to metamorphose their own limits) have sometimes ended in abrupt confrontations. These shocks, betrayals, and elimination were of a evolutionary necessity because of an over identification and compulsion for security and power outside of the self. The soul needed to cyclicly retreat into itself and re-establish it's newly defined limits as a means to stabilize after the metamorphic experience. I'm sensing with this square to the south node 5th that these traumas have really hurt the ego and damaged it's sense of specialness-it took it personally. So, we see it come into this life with an inherent distrust of other's motives and fear of opening up. Because of the betrayals, he/she actually has a fear of that which it needs to do to continue to evolve. Hence, with this signature, we see the greatest inner stress between the two desires of the soul.
Applying this to past life childhood experiences(as well as this life), we can see that this wounded inner child may be very well connected to parents, in particular father figures, controlling, manipulating, even abusing them as a child. What is most clear would be a potential for the father, in this life and others, to have had strong opinions and a strong will(sn5th-ruler 3); as a result his "˜giving' was from his own perspective of what he perceived his child's needs to be. Thus, we see that there was a repeated experience of, as a child, not being recognized as special, not getting the praise and positive reinforcement needed, and not getting the mental nurturing that would inspire the creativity to flower.
Hence, the resolving of the skipped steps, via the pluto applying to the south node in this case, would be to go back and gently talk to this inner child. Tell it how special it is and help it get the courage it needs to begin his/her creative expression and manifestation of it's creative purpose. Remember that we have major trust issues here, so it is going to take some work to build up a counselor relationship to the point where you can begin this work. If we see sexuality used as an adult to access power, we know that there is an unhealthy self esteem and this wounded inner child is in rough shape.
On the flip side, they may have completely detached from their creative self. (11 skipped ahead) We may see blocks in their creativity. This detaching was skipping ahead as a means to cope. If childhood or past lives their was sexual abuse, this detaching may be seen in the adult being completely blocked from accessing their own sexuality when in relationship to others. In this situation, in each moment of their life, part of them is attracted to passion, fire, expression of self sexually while at the same time repulsed by it. The same is true of detaching from all this feeling and objectively sharing parts of self-it is attractive and safe, yet repulsive and so not who they are.
I'm going to stop here for now. Perhaps this interpretation was a bit jumping here and there. Always thankful for your feedback Rad. Would love to develop areas that were "skipped over" or misinterpreted.
-b
Hi Bradley,
It is really great to see your own evolutionary and progressive grasping of the EA principles and paradigm. Your analysis does reflect your progressive understanding of how the EA symbols in the chart we are working with interact withing the whole of the design. And this is, indeed, one of the most important things to understand in the EA paradigm. When I read the analysis of those that are doing the practice charts this is one of the main things I look for. Of course there are a variety of specific dynamics and issues that are not covered because, after all, most here are relatively new to this work in EA. What you have covered in your analysis is all correct by way of archetypal possibilities within the signature of the chart that we are working with.
If you wish there are some very deep karmic and evolutionary issues that have not been covered to date by anyone doing this practice chart. One is the issue of 'duplicity'. With the ruler of the S.Node in the 3rd, and inconjunct the 8th House Pluto, there has been a deep karma built up around this issue of duplicity, and the karma of. So of course the question then becomes what has been, and is, the cause of that duplicity, and how has that duplicity manifested in the past, and in this life ? Within this is the ongoing dynamic and issues of 'ulterior motives' or double agendas in the Soul's interaction with others, and the karma this has created.
Within this, given that Pluto is in the 8th, squaring the Nodes from the 11th/5th, this Soul will also be needing to repeat relationships with all kinds of people because of the above dynamics. These will be with former friends, lovers, children, and relationships that were formed with others whom this Soul 'used' in order to advance it's own agendas as defined by the 8th House Pluto in relationship to the Nodal axis, and it's rulers.
Given that this Soul has ongoing 'power issues' with it's own father of birth relative to the Soul's need to individuate itself from the father, how would this inner evolutionary/ karmic issue with the Soul's father then manifest by way of the children that this Soul would have ? And what would be the intention for this Soul to have children that embodied the very inner dynamics that the Soul has within itself regarding it's own father ?
You are doing really good work Bradley.
Rad
Hi Gonzalopan,
This is just a quick note from me about the posts you did on the Plu 4th, SNode 2nd, NNode 8th practice chart.
I've been slowly crunching my way through this whole practice chart thread, aiming to absorb the posts already up and get aligned with topic as its evolved and then join in. I've got as far as the above chart, and was in for a treat. I've got this signature and although my nodal rulers are in different houses I got a great deal to reflect on with your posts on this chart. Looking back over my life some of the things you said helped me personally to get a better perspective on some key parts of my life. So thanks for your input, most appreciated.
And in fact thanks also to everyone else who posted on the chart (and including Rad of course), by the time I had read everyone's contribution my understanding of my evolutionary path in this life was really enhanced.
I do hope to join in at some point, health allowing (currently have heavy metal poisoning so have to juggle time for this with lying pretty low due to the impact of the treatment program I'm on).
Upasika
Gonzalopan,
Hey, thanks for your concern...
Heavy metal poisoning is quite a serious condition, but hopefully my case can be treated without permanent damage to the nerves (which is possible with this). So far the treatment program is working well, but its quite slow (can take years), I've been on it for nearly 2 years now. If I had heaps of money to pay for the latest high tech treatments (similar to chemotherapy) I could probably speed things up, but the whole thing has been pretty expensive to date and I don't have insurance or that kind of cash anymore. But overall things are looking up ... it could be worse from what I gather from the doctors. Anyway I'm cultivating a positive view of it, I sense it's for a good reason that its happening in my life right now ! ... Upasika
Hey all,
Very exciting to see all the involvement, insights, and growth! Awesome.
Rad, thanks again for the feedback.
As I've been meditating on this further, it seems so key(for myself) to keep in mind the difference of having an inconjunct from the sn or ruler of to pluto with the other point in stressful aspect as well.
For example.... if it was pluto 8th, sn 4th, w/ruler third, would this not be very different as far as the level of crisis this inconjunct would symbolize in the soul's karmic past?
A question/requesting reaffirmation/attempting to maintain the "bigger picture" perspective
Thanks,
b
Hi Bradley,
Quote from: Bradley J on Jan 29, 2010, 09:51 PM
Hey all,
Very exciting to see all the involvement, insights, and growth! Awesome.
Rad, thanks again for the feedback.
As I've been meditating on this further, it seems so key(for myself) to keep in mind the difference of having an inconjunct from the sn or ruler of to pluto with the other point in stressful aspect as well.
For example.... if it was pluto 8th, sn 4th, w/ruler third, would this not be very different as far as the level of crisis this inconjunct would symbolize in the soul's karmic past?
A question/requesting reaffirmation/attempting to maintain the "bigger picture" perspective
Thanks,
b
No sure what you mean by 'level of crisis'. In your contrasting example is simply means the sources of the crisis are different, the types of crisis and the reasons for. Rad
Rad,
I am going to go ahead and post again on this based on material not yet integrated.
In my question, what I am wondering is: Is the implied crises in the inconjunct of sn ruler to pluto of greater stress because the south node squares pluto? For example, if someone has the same pluto in the 8th, south node ruler inconjunct pluto, but the south node itself is in a trine or sextile to pluto...would this be "less challenging" in terms of the soul integrating the crisis implied by the inconjunct? Or, is it simply that the "source of the crisis is different"?
Thanks again,
Bradley
Hi Bradley,
Got it. The answer is yes because with the Nodes trine or sextile Pluto the nature of the crisis or conflict can be more easily understood and integrated by the Soul versus the resistance implied by the Nodes in square to Pluto.
Rad
Additions to "Pluto 8th, 3rd stage consensus, s.node 5th, ruler 3rd, n.node 11 w/ruler 7th."
Rad,
You replied that I had not touched on duplicity and specifically brought up:
1. the cause of duplicity
2. how duplicity manifested in past lives
3. and in this life?
4. within this, given the total signature, the soul is needing to repeat relationships. Apply the causes and manifestation of double agendas to relationships in this life
5. how would inner evolutionary and karmic issue with own father manifest by way of own children? what is the intent to have children that embody very inner dynamics that the soul has within regarding its own father?
The cause of duplicity, of these dueling agendas would be rooted in discovering information that will serve this ego to move beyond the limits of it's own power-to move up a rung on the social ladder and it's need to be seen, recognized, praised, and viewed as special for it's contributions. Within this, there is an internal conflict within the soul which makes the crisis of duel agendas very challenging to integrate. Unconsciously(pluto 8th), the soul is drawn to form relationships with other people and things that have power/access to power that it knows itself to not have. So, this unconscious security of being drawn to growth experiences always exists. Consciously, this person would have, in past lives and this one, wanted to be treated with the dignity and recognition of a king or queen-given praise for its own special creative offerings.
Here is the conflict between the 8th and 5th house again. Security of loyalty is a strong conscious ego need(5th s.node). Part of its seeking information and questioning others, relationships, and life is to get to the bottom line of the other-the 8th house experience. While, simultaneously, thru his/her use of words, it is still looking for compliments, praise, recognition. It's like fishing for a compliment while simultaneously seeking to find out "˜secret information' to see thru the veils covering up the truth. If we use an example of sex(8th/5th), one could be seeking the fulfillment of being treated so specially thru love-making while simultaneously seeking information to either prove or release its inner fears and defensiveness. Who wants to be seeing oneself fishing for information to get to the bottom of their own fears of intimacy while simultaneously alluring the other to you for their caress? My goal for this example is one moment of a story in a life of this soul that captures the constant state of it's mental reality.
To recap, the causative factors of duplicity are A. the need to see thru the veil to penetrate to the core of the truth/power sought after(may be unconscious) and B. to attract attention, recognition, praise, and honor-to have others "˜see' what they are doing.
Rad, is it true that, because we are talking about the s.node ruler, the causative factors are not coming from the n.node and it's ruler. Or, because of the pluto square to the nodes, is part of this duplicity the intentions symbolized by the n.node and it's ruler?
Another question-is it right that the minds desires to penetrate to the core of their relationships is unconscious? I say this because Wolf wrote that the security needs symbolized by pluto are unconscious, while the ego(moon) is conscious.
So, is it also true that the s.node motives would be totally conscious? or at least mostly?
I'm stopping here because it seems pertinent that I know this before going ahead with the rest of this.
Rad, thanks for answering my last question and also for your time and commitment to the EA MB.
Bradley
Hi Bradley,
" Rad, is it true that, because we are talking about the s.node ruler, the causative factors are not coming from the n.node and it's ruler. Or, because of the pluto square to the nodes, is part of this duplicity the intentions symbolized by the n.node and it's ruler?"
**************************************************************************
We need to remember that is is the Soul, Pluto, that the cause or determinant of everything that it desires. Thus, all the other symbols like the N.S Nodes and their rulers, indeed all the other planets within the birth chart, symbolize in total what is emanating from the Soul itself. So in the paradigm we are considering now, the 8th House Pluto, is the cause of determinant of all the other symbols in this paradigm. It is, thus, this Soul's need for absolute power in a consensus context that then is the cause and basis for the duplicity. Do whatever it needs to do in order to have those desires met, including being duplicit.
***************************************************************************
Another question-is it right that the minds desires to penetrate to the core of their relationships is unconscious? I say this because Wolf wrote that the security needs symbolized by pluto are unconscious, while the ego(moon) is conscious.
So, is it also true that the s.node motives would be totally conscious? or at least mostly?
**************************************************************************
They would be totally conscious because of bringing those desires up through the current egocentric structure that the Soul has, itself, designed: the N/S Nodes of the Moon, there planetary rulers, and of course wherever the natal Moon will be, and the aspects to it. Within this we will have a sign on the 4th House cusp with the location of it's planetary ruler, aspects to it, and of course wherever the sign Cancer is located which will then refer back to the natal Moon and , thus implicate it's Nodal Axis. So all of this in combination makes the unconscious desires within the Soul itself, conscious through these Moon symbols. The real then becomes the degree of self awareness AND PERSONAL HONESTY that conditions just how conscious these desires can actually be.
***************************************************************************
I'm stopping here because it seems pertinent that I know this before going ahead with the rest of this.
Rad, thanks for answering my last question and also for your time and commitment to the EA MB.
**************************************************************************
You are more than welcome Bradley and thanks in return to your own commitment to this work and wanting to help others because of. That makes God smile big time.
Rad
Rad,
thanks again for support and feedback.
I realize I still have clarifying questions regarding this example- or for that matter any example in which we are discussing the root cause of south node ruler when pluto is in square to the nodes.
I understand that all evolutionary intentions are traced back to pluto-house, sign, aspect, etc. which in this case implies that, when squaring the nodes, the soul has had dueling/opposite evolutionary intentions, as seen in the n. & s. nodes of the moon.
So, in our current assignment, regarding the question of the cause of duplicity-as seen thru the ruler of the south node in the 3rd house, -part of me is analyzing this and saying that the cause would be first to serve the egocentric needs of the south node....which were to fulfill the evolutionary intentions of pluto and (b/c of sqaure) also the n. node.
So...are we then saying here, that the cause of the archetypal pattern of duplication(3rd) was simultaneously serving the development of the n. node? that is my question
I will add, that up until now, I had not considered tracing back a s.node ruler as also serving in the developement of n.node intentions.
Also, would it be more so when the s.node ruler is in direct aspect to pluto(when pluto is squaring the nodes)?
I hope this is clear.
Thank you,
Bradley
Hi Bradley,
Quote from: Bradley J on Feb 06, 2010, 03:19 PM
Rad,
thanks again for support and feedback.
I realize I still have clarifying questions regarding this example- or for that matter any example in which we are discussing the root cause of south node ruler when pluto is in square to the nodes.
I understand that all evolutionary intentions are traced back to pluto-house, sign, aspect, etc. which in this case implies that, when squaring the nodes, the soul has had dueling/opposite evolutionary intentions, as seen in the n. & s. nodes of the moon.
So, in our current assignment, regarding the question of the cause of duplicity-as seen thru the ruler of the south node in the 3rd house, -part of me is analyzing this and saying that the cause would be first to serve the egocentric needs of the south node....which were to fulfill the evolutionary intentions of pluto and (b/c of sqaure) also the n. node.
So...are we then saying here, that the cause of the archetypal pattern of duplication(3rd) was simultaneously serving the development of the n. node? that is my question
***************************************************************************
It was serving it in the sense that that Soul intends, and has been intending due to it's square to that N.Node to 'liberate' from the existing archetype and behavior of duplicity that was caused by the 8th House Pluto in relationship to it's S.Node in the 5th House. The liberation will occur via the types of relationships that the Soul will form by way of attracting others who confront and expose this behavior to the Soul. In this act of confrontation and exposure by via others thus allows the Soul to see itself objectively: to detach from the behavior itself so as to see it as it is. So, in this way, yes.
*************************************************************************
I will add, that up until now, I had not considered tracing back a s.node ruler as also serving in the developement of n.node intentions.
***************************************************************************
They serve the development of the N.Node because of the actual past .. the dynamics and the experiences that those dynamics create ... symbolized by the S.Node and it's ruler in such a way that that existing past then 'conditions' the manifestation of the N.Node and it's ruler BECAUSE OF THAT EXISTING PAST. This is , indeed, the INDIVIDUAL CONTEXT that allows for a precise understanding of the EA astrologer in order to understand the specific and individual way of actualizing the N.Node and it's ruler in any birth chart.
*************************************************************************
Also, would it be more so when the s.node ruler is in direct aspect to pluto(when pluto is squaring the nodes)?
*************************************************************************
Yes .........................
Rad
Rad,
This is very helpful. I think I'm getting it.
I will now proceed with answering these questions:
1. the cause of duplicity
2. how duplicity manifested in past lives
3. and in this life?
4. within this, given the total signature, the soul is needing to repeat relationships. Apply the causes and manifestation of double agendas to relationships in this life
5. how would inner evolutionary and karmic issue with own father manifest by way of own children? what is the intent to have children that embody very inner dynamics that the soul has within regarding its own father?
Thanks,
Bradley
HI Bradley,
Ok, give it a go ................
Rad
Again - Duplicity of 3rd house ruler of s. node 5th relative to pluto 8th.
the cause of duplicity
To understand the cause of duplicity, we first trace back the third house s. node ruler thru the 5th house s. node to the natal pluto in the eight.
Ultimately, this soul has been using the ability to communicate duel personalities and agendas as a means to find out how he/she fits into the picture-questions regarding where s/he can have a place to shine. This soul has sought out to lift itself up within the merging unions. In this, we see the inherent conflict of the 5th serving the 8th pluto. The 8th representing a actual death of some part of the self is really quite ego surrendering, while to achieve this thru actual drawing attention to one's own purpose and special role is challenging. Hence, the conflict of the waning inconjunct of the s.node ruler to pluto can be seen looking at the enforced lessons of "social humility" that is being learned thru the metamorphic process of merging with sources of power greater than where one is.
The cause of duplicity is revealed in the fact that this soul is always looking for information within the consensus paradigm of its existence to place it "at the top of the pyramid". This information leads to ways to access and penetrate greater sources of power for one's own self fulfillment. The cause of the duplicity then is to be able to play out two(or more) personalities which allows one to continue to be in direct line to power(as defined by consensus culture) while simultaneously being able to receive praise and attention for their own special contributions to this process.
As seen thru the s.node 5th, one sought out elevated ego positions, a position where they have the power to, at will, make the calls....but, the need for duplicity is revealed in the fact that this soul knows it could have "the rug pulled out from under it's own feet" if the source of power greater than it finds out that they are playing their cards with a double agenda.
It is inevitable that this soul has had these past emotional shocks and confrontations and that they were directly linked to the above double agenda to access greater power. The resulting confrontations and eliminated relationships resulted in these lessons of "social humility" and, in the positive evolutionary perspective, catalyzed the needed purification of the mind and intention (also referred to as releasing and resolving separating desires)
Basically, the soul was needing to learn that it can still have it's own special role while submerging itself in something greater than it is. In the past, after a larger "metamorphic event" the 8th house pluto individual would have, for personal unconscious security reasons, begun to cling to the next self realized limits of their own power. Within these limits, they began to again raise them self up and seek information to achieve a kingly/queenly role within their newly aquired capacities of power. There would be a building up of tension within this matrix of reality as it became harder and harder to maintain top rung-the soul would go back to seeking the next more powerful union. This situation created another cause of duplicity within the soul-mouth service to achieve two things that are working at cross purposes to each other.
Another potential response within the soul would be the clinging to the known limits, as seen in the fixed square here between pluto 8th and s. node 5th. If the soul was in position to, out of fear, hold onto the existing merger/relationship, yet needing more and more praise for it's own role within it-but not receiving this attention in the relationship any longer-we see the inner tension that builds as this soul would have been "living two lives"-a duplicity cause in this example is that on the one hand it would be saying what it needs to say to "maintain and preserve the relationship" and, on the other hand, finding itself saying things with very different intention to others outside this relationship to get the attention and praise it was seeking.
The lesson of "social humility" as seen in the 3rd inconjunct the 8th in this example could easily be seen in a publicly exposed affair resulting in the partner or self ending the relationship. Most likely, based on degrees of the aspects as well as sign placement(with soul in 3rd consensus), we could deduce that this probably did happen at some point.
how duplicity manifested in past lives
I guess I wrapped this into the above.
I do need to add, inherent in pluto square to the nodes, that this soul has come in with two opposite paths to fulfill the core soul evolutionary intentions. In the light of this duplicity pattern, the information that was sought after was used for bringing attention and praise to their creative gifts, yet simultaneously allowed he/she to see how they could find a social place for their talents. Basically, this accessing information and attention indirectly served in the development of the n.node by allowing the mental realization of what really resonated for them in regards to how to bring forth to the world their creative gifts. Given the sextile trine to the nodal axis(while inconjunct pluto), the s.node ruler is seen as communicating, taking in different perspectives and gathering information that was integrated into both their self liberation(11th) and self creation (5th) - this duplicity manifesting in directly bring praise and attention, indirectly allowing information to assist liberation - both processes(nodes) for the individual creating tension within the merger/union/relationship which they kept at the time. For the relationship(8th) to "hold" this inherent tension within it, it needed the capacity to allow for constant growth and transformation.
Naturally, this was not always the case, in which both nodes would be seen in this attraction/repulsion push/pull within the soul until the built up confrontation which was necessary for the release of all this tension. Whether or not it was to lead to an "elimination" of that connection was revealed by asking if the connection would continue to allow the space for the soul's needed attention and self transformations.
and in this life?
In true 8th house fashion, this individual would be fully aware of their own use of duel intentions within their consciousness. In fact, out of their past life traumas and confrontations, we'd see this capacity to see thru others who also hold multiple agendas and intentions and/or conceal or hide part of their intentions.
So, this individual would approach relationships in an awkward guarded sort of way, drawn to the allure of joining with someone/thing greater in some way than itself, yet cautious as it protects it's needs of freedom while enjoying attention/affection and self satisfaction. He/she would be looking for ways that they can have will power within the potential relationship in every moment-very drawn to this idea being in the position of king or queen, yet in that same moment, totally repulsed by this and simply wanted to merge but maintain total freedom of self.
This dualistic nature within them would be seen as they are internally drawn to their own self realized ability to get what they want(5th), simultaneously repulsed by it, yet realizing that this has also led to realizations of what inherently is and is not resonate with who they are(11th)
There is clearly an inherent struggle within this person regarding coming to peace with their own inquisitive impulses and the karma that this leads into.
within this, given the total signature, the soul is needing to repeat relationships.
This soul is needing to repeat relationships because they still need to learn lessons of humility in a social sense-how to bring their gifts into the world without it coming from grandiose ego needs. They have liberated from relationships in their past(11 square to 8), skipping ahead while leaving issues of their own needs within relationship going unresolved. They may have a wounded child inside that needs to learn to mature thru relationship. Yes, they do deserve to be treated with "royal dignity", but they are learning the humbling lesson that everyone else also deserves this. Karmically, they will come back face to face with others whom they had "used" (duplicity) just for their own needs to be met while still maintaining a power position. Karmic confrontations in this lifetime thru relationship hopefully teach these lessons in humbleness-potentially learning to listen(n.node ruler 7) and not just hear the information that serves their own needs(s.node 5-ruler-3).
Apply the causes and manifestation of double agendas to relationships in this life
how would inner evolutionary and karmic issue with own father manifest by way of own children? what is the intent to have children that embody very inner dynamics that the soul has within regarding its own father?
This last part I will still work on, but not tonight. Look forward to your feedback,
Thanks,
Bradley
Hi Bradley,
Keep going. You are correctly using the inherent reasoning of the EA paradigm to develop your analysis. Good work.
Rad
just a check in-
planning to find time to continue very soon.
Pluto 8th, s. node 5th w/ruler 3rd: late consensus: Duplicity relative to father and in fathering own children:
This soul, naturally drawn to relationships which compelled them due to the power within the other, would have experienced in this and previous lives the impact and challenge of a father of strong will, whose own creative purposes would have kept them from accessing the relationships which they were naturally drawn to.
This sets up the natural conflict of interests(5th square 8th) relative to the soul as a child and youth being controlled when wanting to branch out and connect with specific others.
This would have been some of the early life dynamics, coupled with the unconscious memories of having had this experience before, which lead to the inquisitive nature of the soul which allowed them to access information which allowed them to manifest their own creative purpose relative to joining with selected others.
The duplicity within this would, early on, been subjective to the individual and purely for the survival of accessing the power to exercise their own will. So, the point here is that they learned early on(or long ago) how to pose questions and have conversations in such a way that they gained insight into how they could use their own creative will power to merge with who and when, while simultaneously concealing this desire-there in lies the duplicity of this dynamic/signature.
As they grew older, this dynamic would still play out in the will of their father, yet they would also begin to see that they were experiencing their own struggle to creatively actualize their own desires within the relationships that they had sought out of their own desire. How this dynamic was handled and situations that played out would be relevant to previous posts in which we described this souls relationship dynamics in past and present lives.
Moving on to their own experience as a parent of their own children. Certainly, of course, we would have to understand the culture of birth and socially "normal" roles with in the family-relative to the gender of the soul in this life. Knowing that this soul is late consensus, the power that would naturally draw them in would be relationships that would increase their wealth and/or social power. To achieve this, they would have, relative to the south node, seek ways to find their creative role in these relationships-something that could be pulling them away from their children. They may see themselves acting "just like their father" in ways they find themselves communicating with their children. In this conversation, they would control with their own will by questioning their children in such a way as to maintain the creative space they need to keep access to the power/relationship/money that they are drawn to.
As discussed earlier, this duplicity in personality and communication as a parent was only partly fulfilling their evolutionary intentions in previous lives. While we would see it repeat, we would also know that part of them for a long time was also repulsed by the nature of this-their own pattern. Part of them would have been, instead of seeking out information to figure out how they would/could achieve royal status, this other part of them is simultaneously casting off relationships and/or transforming pre-existing relationships/business partnerships by releasing their own attachments to finding their own purpose as soon as they sensed the "merger" did not resonate at a core level with their own values.
As a parent, through the experience/passage of parenthood, they would certainly encounter within the constant attempts to be "in control" a crisis within the relationships to their own children. In a positive scenario, this experience of parenting would allow them to find their own creative purpose partially fulfilled thru the experience of being a parent. Thru constant dialouge with their own children they may realize within their own creative needs that have not been met in their past relationships. They would still need outside sources of power, but if they are truly evolving, we could see the polarity point activated in that they would free their self(11) from these outside relationships(8) which did not resonate at a core level with their own evolving values.(ppp-2) This would free them to come into their own center of power.
If, as a parent, the crisis of confrontations with their own children revealed to them on a conscious level their use and abuse of power and willl by holding double agendas, they could thru crisis/experience, resolve issues pertaining to how they use their will for their own security. In this, we could see resolution thru the south node 5th(pluto applying to s. node) which would allow them to begin to activate the capacity to come into their own center of power-learning to be self reliant to acheive the needed resources by their self(ppp-2) as apposed to seeking this thru others.
From this, they can be empowered to caste off what is not true to who they are(n.node 11th) by learning to listen to other's openly(n. node ruler 7th)(without having a hidden agenda as the reason for listening-resolved s. node-5/ruler-3).
Rad, do I have this right? I am trying to hold the concept of pluto applying to the south node-resolving the crisis of duplicity and self needs for creative purpose before being able to realize the pluto polarity point and truly integrate the north node via the ruler of.
Many thanks once again,
Bradley
HI Bradley,
"Rad, do I have this right? I am trying to hold the concept of pluto applying to the south node-resolving the crisis of duplicity and self needs for creative purpose before being able to realize the pluto polarity point and truly integrate the north node via the ruler of."
*****************************************************************************
I am following your reasoning within the paradigm, and what your deductions are because of that reasoning. You are relatively new to this work and as you have more experience with it, especially when you do the charts of others over a length of time, your evaluations will become more succinct and efficient.
The N.Node, and the location of it's ruler, can BE REALIZED at any time depending on the choices of the Soul itself, and the desires that fuel those choices. We must remember that Pluto in the 8th is squaring both Nodes. As such, both Nodes, and their rulers, have been in operation prior to the current life. The reason that they are in square to the Pluto is DUE TO PRIOR CHOICES fueled by the desires coming from the Soul itself. And those choices have lead to the current evolutionary state that correlate to the skipped steps.
We must remember that this has been a Soul that, within itself, considered itself to be the center of the universe and has expected, desired, that everything that it has created for it's lives to revolve around the Soul itself. This narcissistic orientation to life has been fueled by the Soul's desire for absolute power in which the Soul has learned the nature of the social systems in order to use and manipulate it with it's will so that such power could be realized. In essence, the Soul became a master chess player in which it learned to manipulate as necessary all the 'pieces' of it's lives in order or it's desires to be realized. And this has included of course all the people, including children, lovers, business partners, wives or husbands, friends, anyone in essence. This is where the dynamics of duplicity come in via the ruler of the S.Node being in the 3rd: to say or do anything in order for the Soul's desires to be realized.
Yet, prior to the current life, the Soul has desired metamorphose this orientation to reality, to desire the opposite: the N.Node in the 11th, ruler in the 7th. And that opposite has meant evolving itself to be one among many, and equal within the fabric of social and intimate relationships. It has desired to confront all the inner psychological dynamics that are rooted in the desire for absolute power at all costs, and the self serving narcissism this has bread. This includes of course the psychology that has caused the duplicity. This desire to purge and eliminate these desires has manifested in the form of others, including the Soul's children, intimate partners, friends, associations of all kinds, the 11th House N.Node, the ruler in the 7th, who have had the necessary role of CONFRONTING the Soul. And these confrontations have had the intent of putting the Soul's motives and the agendas those motives have manifested as, in it's face.
In this way the intent has been, as originating from within the Soul itself, to enforce a necessary OBJECTIFICATION OF ITSELF because of these confrontations which are very much like holding up a mirror to oneself. It is the SHOCK, 8th House Pluto, that these objectifying confrontations have that then causes the Soul to become REPULSED from within itself, at itself. Remembering that the polarity point for this Soul is the 2nd House we then know that a core intention, ongoing, is radically alter it's inner relationship to itself. In turn this correlates to radically altering what constitutes the meaning for the Soul's life, and what constitutes the new values that reflect that new meaning. Since the S.Node in the 5th is the Node that last formed a conjunction to the 8th House Pluto, this then means that the Soul, in an evolutionary change, will actualize itself in very creative and powerful ways yet, at the same time, be one among many, equal among equals, a giver rather than a taker, and who will embrace the individual differences of others without feeling threatened by those differences. It will consistently empower others to be who their inherently are, and the Soul will continue to learn how to listen objectively to others in order to give to them what they actually need. It will no longer need to be duplicit.
The role of the Soul's children of course will be central to this evolutionary process because each one of the children WILL BE DIFFERENT THAN THE FATHER: N.Node in the 11th relative to the S.Node in the 5th. If the father attempts to dominate and control them each one of these children will rebel and assert their own rights to be who they are, need to be. And, again, this breads necessary confrontation to the Soul in order to continue to evolve in the ways that it intends as above.
You are doing real good Bradley. Just keep going. I will try to help you as much as I can, as much as you need me too.
God Bless, Rad
Rad,
Well said, wow! Thanks
It is awesome how much personal awarenesses come up on this journey.
I read your response and know where you are getting the intepretation from the symbols.
Sometimes it is like the symbols are soo real and right on, it is like I am almost afraid to interpret them completely as they read.
Of course, yes so much to learn being new to EA.
And to unlearn with 10 years of study under other approaches. I find myself "throwing the baby out with the bathwater" at times....and then reminding myself that I am farmiliar with the archetypes, but need to continue to re-orient around the CORE of each as taught according to Wolf.
What a blessing this journey is.
As you have suggested, continue to submerge into the EA paradigm. Still on Pluto book ONe and watching and rewatching the first 10 dvds over and over.
Rad, regarding the practice charts thread here, what is next? Where are we at with this assignment?
Anything else you would suggest us to meditate on and study about the dynamics within this signature?
God Bless,
Bradley
Hi Bradley,
Well, have been waiting for Linda to send the completion of this current paradigm in order to begin anew. So Linda if you read this please let me know if you so intend to do. If not, then we can begin another practice chart. And, if we begin a new one, I would like those who are participating in this practice chart thread to let me know if you'all want to stay with how we have been doing them to date, or if you want to begin to add a bit more of the paradigm to them as in putting Pluto, the Nodes, and their planetary rulers in signs. That would be the next step.
And, Bradely, despite having to unlearn those ten years of prior study of astrology you are doing real, real good in your grasping of the EA paradigm. Just keep going ..................
God Bless, Rad
Rad,
I've been dealing with a personal cataclysmic event (T-Pluto conj Venus 3rd - Venus rules SN 7th which is the resolution node to my Pluto/Nodes t-square!). To carry on with my EA study is what is required, but to be honest, as expressed recently by another person on this message board, my difficulty lies in the amount of details presented and how to put it all together. The value is in the effort! so I just need to continue, even if it's at a slow pace at the present time. I have been reading through everyone's contributions in the present Practice Chart assignment in order to put something together. I'll give it go today.
Many thanks.
Pluto 8th - SN 5th - SN Ruler 3rd
PPP 2nd - NN 11th - NN Ruler 7th
3rd Stage Consensus
The core orientation of this 8th house Soul is to strive toward and unite with powerful symbols of the 3rd Stage Consensus in the upper strata of society such as prestige, status, material abundance, political power, social power, business success, and sexual power. The evolutionary theme and necessity is creativity shaped through strength of will (5th) and actualized through unique and special communicative capabilities (3rd).
The 5th/8th First Quarter Square describes a crisis in action where he possesses all kinds of creativity (5th) and new thought forms (3rd) but is not certain what specific form to express these through resulting in a creative crisis. He rushes ahead to create and exhibit his special destiny (5th) in order to effect achievement in the world (3rd consensus), but regularly experiences a withdrawal effect due to a fear of failure or a fear that (what little he feels of) his individuality will be lost. And although the Last Quarter SN Ruler sextile SN describes a brilliant intellect with well formed thoughts that allow a clear vision for the future, his core desires (8th) are not easily achievable.
In the karmic past, the archetypes of betrayal, abandonment, trust (8th), child abuse, loss of children, power struggle with his father (5th) were experienced. His father expected him to be an extension of himself and this drew rebellion, intellectual battles and crisis (11th) against his father's ideas because of the karmic necessity to define his own unique individuality (11th) which would lead to developing the PPP (2nd), and a sense that he would be the source of his own emotional and physical security.
Achieving his own individuality and detaching himself from his father makes him feel powerful and secure, and this leads to compulsive controlling and dictatorial behaviour over other people's lives, especially his children, lovers and siblings. His dominating and controlling behaviour causes his children to rebel and assert their own wills against him. Likewise, his children karmically inherit his old behaviour pattern, and therefore resist his dictates in order that they also can individuate.
Pluto (8th) Full Inconjunct SN Ruler (3rd) exhibits an enormous amount of true inner power (8th), together with a heightened sense of a special destiny to achieve (5th). Asserting his intellectual prowess in a wilful or obsessive way, or the way he communicates in a headstrong manner, or the way he takes in information in a determined way from external sources, is met with social persecution, criticism and environmental blockage. He cleverly finds the weakest links in other people's arguments in order to reinstate his own rightness.
With this Inconjunct there has been a deep karma built up around duplicity which manifested through lies, gossip, fluctuating viewpoints, double agendas and ulterior motives in his interaction with others (3rd), which resulted in confrontations, negative feedback and others' intellectual doubt about him. The need for absolute power (8th) was the reason he became duplicitous in his dealings with others. In this life, the duplicity manifests as a subconscious fear of having his own power undermined by another point of view (3rd) which would then undermine his sense of absolute power (8th). Confrontations with others would necessarily liberate him from this past behavioural pattern, as they expose this behaviour to him, thus allowing him to view it objectively so that he can see it for what it truly is. These dynamics will be uncovered through repeated relationships with past friends, lovers, children or with souls he used or abused in the past.
His Pluto 8th squares the Nodal Axis and therefore he has skipped some steps in the past. These steps will be recovered through the resolution node, the 5th. Until then, he will seesaw back and forth over the nodes 5th/11th until he understands what was missed, and learns to develop and express what was missed in his life. Both Nodes and their rulers have operated in prior lives due to past choices which correlate to the skipped steps. The degree of resistance to the skipped steps can be quite profound and intense. Attracting confrontations and being isolated by others (11th), and the choice of domineering parental type and children resistant to his dictates (5th) will lead to objective awareness of the skipped steps. Through the Last Quarter Square of the 8th/11th he will eventually meet others with very different world views to his (11th) and his resistance to others' ideas will intensify the evolutionary necessity to recover the skipped steps of his SN 5th. The process of confrontation leads to internalization and assessment of the difficulties and eventually leads to self-adjustment.
He is evolving beyond egocentric power (8th, 5th, 3rd) toward a creative social role that will benefit others (11th) with lessons in "listening", equality and balance (NN ruler 7th). He learns to listen and to hear exactly what others need, and so he is learning to give rather than take. The Grand Trine between the NN, SN Ruler, and NN Ruler reflects an ease in communicating, sharing and comparing thoughts and ideas with others, where he is able to consider, contrast and compare (7th) in a detached and objective way "different" points of view about the world (11th) which lead to new and unique approaches in the development of friendships with a diversity of people (11th). In this way he is able to revolutionize and radically transform himself, and to leave the past behind.
With the SN Last Quarter Sextile NN Ruler 7th it becomes easier to assume the future directions of his relationships, to learn through others, perhaps leading to committed or intimate relationships rather than manipulation and abuse of others (8th). However, the PPP inconjunct NN Ruler 7th describes not feeling good enough or not having the self-esteem or self-love required for self-sufficient relationships. There may be a feeling of inadequacy in sharing oneself with a partner, or perhaps not feeling "ready" for a committed relationship.
Quote from: Rad on Feb 19, 2010, 07:39 AM
I would like those who are participating in this practice chart thread to let me know if you'all want to stay with how we have been doing them to date, or if you want to begin to add a bit more of the paradigm to them as in putting Pluto, the Nodes, and their planetary rulers in signs.
I'm ready (sort of ;D) to tackle the Pluto dynamic in the SIGNS.
HI Linda,
"The 5th/8th First Quarter Square describes a crisis in action where he possesses all kinds of creativity (5th) and new thought forms (3rd) but is not certain what specific form to express these through resulting in a creative crisis. He rushes ahead to create and exhibit his special destiny (5th) in order to effect achievement in the world (3rd consensus), but regularly experiences a withdrawal effect due to a fear of failure or a fear that (what little he feels of) his individuality will be lost. And although the Last Quarter SN Ruler sextile SN describes a brilliant intellect with well formed thoughts that allow a clear vision for the future, his core desires (8th) are not easily achievable."
****************************************************************************
This Soul would not have, within itself, a fear of failure that causes it to cyclically withdraw. The Soul's sense of it's own individuality in this 3rd Stage consensus is in fact very, very powerful AS MEASURED AGAINST the majority of people, consensus, of the Soul's society of birth. The Soul in fact feels an inner sense of 'royalness': special, unique, inherenty 'entititled' to all the privledges of life.
What causes the cyclic withdrawals, and makes the Soul feel insecure, are the confrontations to it that the Soul requires because of it's evolutionary intentions as symbolized by the N.Node in the 11th, and it's ruler in the 7th, relative to the 8th House Pluto, and it's polarity point. And those confrontations are intended by the Soul so that it can utterly change it's inner realtionship to itself in terms of where the Soul has been coming from. It's the intensity of these confrontations that cause the cyclic withdrawal, and the resulting insecurity from within the Soul that these confrontations induce.
The fear of failure is rooted in having to actualize the Soul is the new ways that the Soul intends to do. This kind of Soul, at some point, once the ongoing evolutionary intentions is fully realized as symbolized in the 11th House N.Node and it's ruler in the 7th, will realize to it's own suprise that it's desires and efforts to succed will far surpase it's prior efforts at success that were rooted in absolute egocentric/ Soul domination of all others who were simply chess pieces in the Soul's own narcisstic drama who were manipulated accordingly.
**************************************************************************
Real good work Linda. Certainly wishing and praying that your own evolutionary transition right now, despite the struggle, is resolved in such a way that your Soul can rapidly accelerate as you leave the binding past behind.
God Bless, Rad
Thank you kindly Rad.
Regarding adding signs:
No preference here
Look forward to it either way
Hi group,
Please let me know who is still wanting to be part of this practice chart thread. Would like to know before we begin a new practice chart.
Rad
HI Dhyana,
The first thing to do is read through this thread, starting from the beginning, to see what this practice charts are about. Have you read the PLuto books by Wolf, and his daughter Deva ? If not, this would be a good time to do so. Those books correlate with the essence of what Evolutionary Astrology is. In order to do these practice charts you will need that foundation: natal pluto, it's polarity point, the N.S Nodes of the Moon, and their planetary rulers. If you feel you have that foundation, based on reading those books, then by all means join this thread. The Forest book would be worthless for these purposes.
I will be posting a new paradigm for this practice chart thread in the next day or two. If you feel prepared to join in it's just a matter of doing the practice chart, the new paradigm, in the ways that we have already been doing. So read through this thread in it's entirety so that you can get a feeling for what is involvled, and thus how to participate.
Rad
My sense is that the foundation I have thus far in EA is probably sufficient enough to start doing the practice charts.
I have been studying, reading,and listening to just about anything EA related I could get my hands on. I do have a little background in traditional western astrology, some vedic astrology, as well as some study the Human Design System( founded by Ra Uru Hu), that goes back a few years.
Anyhow, I do feel I am ready to dig in here..
..so i suppose i just wait til you give out the practice chart?? right???
--- so I will just keep checking for it.
Thanks Rad and everyone.
DHYANA
Hi Rad,
I recognize that when I ask a question or post a response that is not born from 100% all of my effort and potential, then I end up wasting your time. Now, I would like to commit to doing this practice with my full presence. I will take time/space to read through the last thread once more, and do some more Pluto reading and personal reflection before I post any response. (And I will approach the obama thread with the same intention).
I apologize for the posts I have made, that in light of not putting forth all my effort, did not honor the services of you and this site.
This practice is a gift. I am grateful to you, all of EA, and Source for bestowing this blessing of abundance.
Love and Light,
Ari Moshe
Hi Ari,
First, none of what you have posted, or asked about, has been taken in by me as a 'waste of my time', or somehow dishonoring EA or others on this board. I have in fact taken you in as very sincere, and quite keen on learning the EA paradigm. To me, as with so many others who desire to learn EA as it actually is, you have 'learned' or taken in all kinds of information from all kinds of sources that simply needs to be unlearned first. And in the process it's creates conflicts for anyone relative to what they have previously 'learned',or thought that they knew before, learning the totality of the EA paradigm. And those kinds of conflicts then become the basis of asking the questions that are asked and/ or the information previously taken in from other sources serving as the basis of how they interpret the symbols in the birth chart.
Not to many have the determination and persistence to learn EA in it's totality. Yet for those that do it does reveal the true map of the Soul through time. And those folks then truly become 'soul workers' on the behalf of others, and the Source itself.
I would encourage you to just keep going one step at a time Ari. As you progressively throw off the baggage of all kinds of information and ideas that you have picked up literally for lifetimes in your desire to 'know the truth', information and ideas that are no longer necessary for your own Soul's development, you will then be able to deepen by way of knowledge that is inwardly realized versus externally gained. As you do this your understanding of the totality of the EA paradigm will follow.
And the practice charts are very critical to that process. So I would gently suggest that you stay with this. I will help you as you need me too.
God Bless, Rad
Hi Practice Charts Group,
Ok, so we will start with a new paradigm. We will make this the chart of a white male, born into upper middle economic conditions, no specific religious conditioning, born in Canada, who is in the last stages of the 1st Stage Individuated evolutionary condition, who has Pluto in Virgo conjunct Uransu in the 2nd House, S.Node is in Scorpio in the 5th House, N.Node in Taurus in the 11th, and it's ruler Venus in Aqaurius in the 7th, and it's squaring the Nodes. Additionally, that Venus is inconjunct the natal Uranus.
Let's have a go at it !
Rad
Hi Rad,
I am pretty involved with a medical treatment program at the moment, but do have a bit of time available for myself, and I would like to join the group for this latest chart example and try doing an interpretation in a few days time.
Since it would be my first go in this thread, I wouldn't read what anyone else may have written on the example by then (or your replies to them) before doing it, just write something from scratch and see how I go. Would this be OK?
thanks, Upasika
Hi Rad,
I'd like to give it a try but don't have tons of time. I see myself possibly checking in at various points and giving it a try where ever I happen to check in. Would this be ok? I'd really love to give it a try when I can and get feedback.
Ellen
Hi Ellen and Upasika,
The answer is of course yes to you both .......... welcome aboard.
Rad
Hi Rad,
QuoteOk, so we will start with a new paradigm. We will make this the chart of a white male, born into upper middle economic conditions, no specific religious conditioning, born in Canada, who is in the last stages of the 1st Stage Individuated evolutionary condition, who has Pluto in Virgo conjunct Uransu in the 2nd House, S.Node is in Scorpio in the 5th House, N.Node in Taurus in the 11th, and it's ruler Venus in Aqaurius in the 7th, and it's squaring the Nodes. Additionally, that Venus is inconjunct the natal Uranus.
A few q's about the aspects, as I see you went out of your way to indicate some aspects, but not others. Should we assume that you indicated all the aspects that are necessary in order for us to deduce the other ones (i.e. if venus is inconjunct uranus, and venus squares the nodes= uranus is sextile the south node)?
The only thing we wouldn't be able to deduce from what you told us are any other aspects to Pluto, as well as the nature of the Pluto Uranus conjunction (new phase, balsamic?)- clearly the orb is wide enough that Venus is not considered to be inconjunct Pluto (if we are to take everything you wrote as a literal indication of aspects).
Thank you.
Hello Dear Friends,
Here is my first shot (at least on this message board ) ... so here goes.
Pluto in Virgo in H2 - This person has a strong survival instinct and regenerative abilities. His need for security and survival dates back lifetimes so he has power in getting his needs met and taken care of... In other words, he is quite self sufficient but may create crisis in this area by taking care of others with his resources.
He knows very well how to gain resources through the power of Pluto or at least DESIRES TO therefore putting forth much effort in this area of life, he will continually find ways to increase his resources and plan (Virgo) for his survival in the world. If he has sufficient resources, with Virgo, there will always be this contual underlying feeling or fear that no matter how much he has there is somehow not going to be enough--- or that the rug can be pulled out from under him at any time. This fear can be the main motivating factor either consciously or unconsciously, of this continual pursuit for power and mastery with his resources as much as feeling a vicitm to circumstances (Virgo). This will be a source of confusion for him. --And as an aside, I would venture to say that this fear is quite unconscious, due to the nature of Pluto and Uranus, both being planets that unconsciously motivate us forward much of the time. And unless one is evolved, much closer to the spirituated state ( he is in the 1st stage individuated (even if it is the last part of that stage sothere are still 2 more to go in individuated.)
(MY Q: can someone perhaps comment on this kind of dynamic,for me bc I am not sure??? As you read on you will see where I get confused with this evolutionary condition changing the dynamics of when and what will or can become CONSCIOUS form UNCONSCIOUS, in a given lifetime depending on evolutionary stage???)
Also with it being in Virgo, he may have the tendency to set himself up to be used for his resources on an unconscous level and hence, that is how the PLUTO in Virgo martyrdom/masochistic dynamic gets played out, aggressor at times and victim at other times???? --Not to mention how this man can keep himself bound to seperating desires through playing the victim. (Virgo)
Here are a couple of possible scenarios -- in a recent past life that may be exactly what has happened!... the rug was pulled out from under him --causing trauma(Uranus) in the soul's memory (Pluto Conjunct Uranus) in the area of personal resources. This was maybe due to his marriage/intimate partner relationship ending (7H Aquarius) --(and perhaps involving children SN H5- maybe paying child support type of thing or even losing the children to her???) ---OR--SN H5 involving his own equality in relationship and learning about that power and pwerlessness issue through the area of personal resources. Another possible scenario might be that of a close business partner relationship abruptly ending w/ trauma?Q?? --Perhaps one where they did some form of creative arts type work together (SN H5)that brought in resources and financial gain(H5 SN ruler in H2 ). He was probably rather fond of this person he worked with or something (Venus) or romatically involved(5th)..or even he could have taken a risk and gambled the lot away and is trying to atone for it in this life (Virgo).
Both scenario's could explain Venus square the nodes---unfinished relationships issues involving resources and values-- seeing that he has a skipped step with Venus in his 7th house in Aquarius (the ruler Uranus in H2). And with H5 being in Scorpio SN, in any scenario there was some kind of betrayal or issue of trust -hence an abiding fear (connecting to the H2 through Pluto Rulership5th) of loosing his resources and not being able to be secure in the world of survival
..Scorpio = trust issue/fear of betrayal involving resources and value-ables.
He may unconsciously keep emotional distance in his intimate relationships and perhaps hide or be secretive about his resources and/or his creative talents and abilities,also due to this. With H7 Aquarius and Uranus H2, he most likely wouldn't know he is the one being emotionally distant --so in his unconsciousness he would project that problem of emotional unavailability onto his partner (because if he were to discover it in himself the whole show would be over! In other words, the reason for his continuation of survival story (PLUTO soul seperation desire) and staying with the entire "suvival and resources seperation desire, would be blown-- Like, his individuation is still occurring so perhaps seeing this clearly or too soon just wouldnt happen at the stage he is at???( MY Q-is that accurate???---THIS IS ONE OF MY QUESTION TO RAD OR WHOMEVER --does this realization come in the last stage of 3rd individuated or 1st stage spiritual, or can it come at anytime??) ----Said even another way:the entire KNOT OF IDENTIFICATION as A SEPERATED SOMEBODY/soul, seperated off from the Source of all things, would be UNTIED if he were to have the peircing inner radar to see that any emotional distancing in intimate relationships of any kind, simply and CLEARLY is eminating from himself(Pluto polarity point in H8 calling him to be boundary-less and to merge with the emotional body and that of ALL THINGS --TO MERGE WITH THE SOURCE THAT ALL RESOURCES come FROM!--(I sure hope the subtlety here was conveyed clearly????)
Or he would simply attract a partner who displayed the emotional distance... Perhaps someone who had a lot of Aquarius energy or something. This way, he could actually have tangible proof that this person is emotionally distant and hence keep from moving into pluto's polarity point, and instead staying in the known pluto soul of the past, old pattern of soul/pluto-- avoiding the waters of it's polarity point Pisces where he could merge.
I believe he has come into this life to meet up again with the intimate partner under whatever scenario...and perhaps reenact the same dynamics in order to proceed or finish the Venus step?? not sure which one (proceed or finsh up) is most likely given his stage???
So the desires and abilities for him to sustain himself are continually being fueled by this unconscious fear or soul memory...and as this occurs he actually does become very good at it. He has a kind a stubborn solidity with this. But with Uranus there in H2 and with it being in Virgo,, he will eventually meet with crisis (via the relationship H7). Which will thwart some of his hopes and dreams (Taurus H11 w/ ruler Venus in 7).
Also with Uranus there he has come up with his own unique strategies for continuing to meet his survival needs and most likely " what doesnt kill him will make him stronger"...as the saying goes. And it may seem that he can always find an alternative or new solution (Uranus) when one solution has been exhausted (or died out through crisis or having been used up and discarded on his own accord, so to speak (Pluto).
In the area of resources and personal values he will continue have issues to be addressed throughout his life and he will meet with certain fated or destined occurrences, circumstances and people to which he has unfinished business, to ensure his evolution into the 2nd State of Individuated, through pluto's polarity point of Pisces.
I suspect that the main crisis will come through his marriage and/or intimiate one to one partnerships. And with the SN in Scorpio 5 H, with the ruler Pluto in 2nd as well...Perhaps something involving having to provide for his child/children after a perhaps divorce may shake up his resources (divorce/speration w/ partner 7thH Aquarius and ruling planet in Uranus in the second???) Uranus often signaling an abrupt ending in relationship 7H.
Of course these are not the only detailed situations that may manifest the characteristics of a 7H Aquarius and it's ruler in the 2nd with fated (Pluto)happenings ,SN5 H, there to, but its what I came up with.
So before I post the next part, where I begin to make suggestions to aid this soul on his evolutionary potential, (NN in Taurus H11 and and Pluto's polarity Point in Pisces H8, I think I first need Rad's (or anyone's) feedback on this much>
Thanks so much .. this means so much to me to be able to learn this with such support. What Grace I feel right about now!
Lovingly,
Dhyana
Oh, as far as the inconjunct - Venus inconjunct Natal Uranus in H2
I am not sure exactly how this would fit into this mans specific story line as manifest reality, but I do know the ENERGY OF THIS DYNAMIC (quite well actually bc it's in my family) The Pluto in Virgo has that very similar victim/martyr type energy as this inconjuct Venus to Uranus. So it is quite fitting for Venus to be inconjumct Uranus in a Pluto in Virgo Soul Indeed! The energetic dynamics of creating a crisis in order to stay stuck, u know. Both aspects have this and with Venus H7, it is obviously going to be played out in the
intimate partnerships and marriage etc.
My guess would be that this person creates his own crisis with his resources by almost "buying people's love" (but he would never know it unless the inner integrity and core splitting honesty began to peak through --Q: again an evolutionary stage question I am unclear about.. if a first stage individuated can see such yet?????).
So indeed he creates his own crisis within relationship related to his posessions, valuables and resources (hence his security). He will be giving perhaps look quite generous, if he is on the victim side of the equation (VIRGO), but not without a hidden anger and resentment about it, of course.
---Like he will look like the "good guy" to most people --the consensus view... you know ---the one who has provided and paid for everything... And the payoff he gets is to be "right" (as in martyr) or the "good guy" or "moral" (as in martyr)... justifying his need to stay emotionally away from his partners bc of how they may have used him or whatever.
Basically, in an unconscois way, he gets a payoff when staying seperated...the power/powerlessness thing (and the powerlessness is still actually a form of usurping power too) --and probably even get's a lot of agreement from his circle. It is a HIDDEN JUSTIFICATION --so that he can continue justify staying seperated emotionally from not only his life partners,( bc after all he is the one who "gave up" everything for them) ---But ultimately, it is his way of staying seperated from the Source and usurp (or atleast try to usurp) Power-- which he will continue to do until his soul, through much pain perhpas, finally comes to the realiztion that True Power is to merge back to That which has in an Ultimate sense it has never really left, only imagined to leave and imagined to have some semblence of power. (Things just end up NOT WORKING ANYMORE) .
As long as he is a victim or a martyr he will not need to meet the other side of Pluto HIS MERGING DESIRE OF THE SOUL WITH SOURCE>(Pisces 8th house)
Dhyana
Quote from: Rad on Feb 25, 2010, 08:52 AM
Hi Practice Charts Group,
Ok, so we will start with a new paradigm. We will make this the chart of a white male, born into upper middle economic conditions, no specific religious conditioning, born in Canada, who is in the last stages of the 1st Stage Individuated evolutionary condition, who has Pluto in Virgo conjunct Uransu in the 2nd House, S.Node is in Scorpio in the 5th House, N.Node in Taurus in the 11th, and it's ruler Venus in Aqaurius in the 7th, and it's squaring the Nodes. Additionally, that Venus is inconjunct the natal Uranus.
Let's have a go at it !
Rad
OK, so here's my shot at it - at least a start on it. I would say that this person has come into this life with a past life history of having made efforts to break out of his limited view of who he is (Pluto/Uranus 2nd house). He has done this by asking "Why?" (Scorpio SN) quite persistently about the beliefs he has taken for granted (2nd house) as they relate to his sense of purpose (5th house). As a result of this persistent and deep questioning, he has experienced persecution in the past (Virgo/Pisces axis). As a result, ultimately, the dynamic that he is attempting to break free from is the dynamic of guilt/atonement. In previous lives, he may have taken vows of poverty (Virgo 2nd house) - presumably he has lived consensus lives in the not too distant past - in response to these feelings of guilt/atonement, but the underlying dynamic remained. In this lifetime, having been born into wealth, he is learning the value of sharing resources with others (PPP 8th house, NN 11th house, ruler NN Venus in 7th. However, with the underlying guilt/atonement dynamic, he may feel guilty about his wealth and feel the need to throw it off - to rebel against it. Materialsim may be his limited perspective in this life. Sharing his resources, however, seems to be what the symbolism suggests (8th house, Taurus, Venus, 7th house). He gets to move beyond survival. Learning to share his resources with others helps him to build new values in this life, to come to believe in himself in a new way (Venus skipped steps, Taurus NN).
OK, that's my start at it. I have to go to work now. I'll keep going tomorrow.
Ellen
Hi Ellen,
It would be best if you did not do this piece meal like. Rather go ahead and write out your analysis as you can, and then, when it's complete, send it.
Rad
HI Are,
"A few q's about the aspects, as I see you went out of your way to indicate some aspects, but not others. Should we assume that you indicated all the aspects that are necessary in order for us to deduce the other ones (i.e. if venus is inconjunct uranus, and venus squares the nodes= uranus is sextile the south node)?
The only thing we wouldn't be able to deduce from what you told us are any other aspects to Pluto, as well as the nature of the Pluto Uranus conjunction (new phase, balsamic?)- clearly the orb is wide enough that Venus is not considered to be inconjunct Pluto (if we are to take everything you wrote as a literal indication of aspects)."
**************************************************************************
Yes, Uranus and Pluto are sextile the S.Node, trine the North. The Uranus/Pluto conjunction is New. The Venus is inconjunct Uranus, and through extension, Pluto.
Rad
Hi Dhyana,
To answer your question about the awareness of his own inner blocks, his emotional withholding and distancing. At his point of evolution, last part of 1st Stage individuated, that awareness will come through the feedback of his partners: Venus in the 7th, squaring the 5th House S.Node. Later on in the EA stages, 3rd Stage Individuated and beyond, that awareness could occur within the Soul itself. The function of having his Venus in Aqarius, the 11th House N.Node, is to create relationships with others who have the affect of helping him 'objectify' himself in total: his psychology and the reasons for it. And the intention within this, Pluto's 8th House polarity, the ongoing S.Node in Scorpio in the 5th, N.Node in the 11th, is to completly metamorphose from his existing state of being. To recreate himself anew. The external sources who help him objectify his existing psychological reality, and the reasons for it, are created by this Soul for these purposes.
I have read through your analysis and will get back to you tomorrow on it. For now what you are identifying is generally correct.
Rad
Quote from: Rad on Feb 26, 2010, 09:24 AM
Hi Ellen,
It would be best if you did not do this piece meal like. Rather go ahead and write out your analysis as you can, and then, when it's complete, send it.
Rad
Ok Rad, makes sense and will do. Can you or anyone tell me how to save my post? Or is that not possible and so I just need to write it out first?
Ellen
Thank You Rad for your reply thus far. That through other people he would come to see his patterns was such an AHA kind of thing for me when I read it --puzzle pieces just started coming together (not only with this chart but ironically, in my very life and in those of the people around me!) Wow, thank you --this is so beautiful and precious
--Funny I didnt see it ...LOL, bc indeed, it is obvious, now that you articualted it!
I am going to spend some time today reviewing again the evolutionary conditions part in the PLUTO books and in Deva's book.
In Gratitude,
Dhyana
ps. will be looking for your (or anyone's) further reply tommorow~
Peace
Hi Dhyana,
Generally you have done a good job so far. One of the dynamics/ issues that you covered that is the cause of his relationship crisis' needs to be developed more because it is the core dynamic that is the cause of his relationship crisis'. And that is the issue of his inability to fully psychologically/ emotionally engage his intimate partners: his Pluto/Uranus in Virgo in the 2nd, inconjunct his 7th House Venus. By being unable to fully engage others in the most intimate of ways, emotionally/ psychologically, this of creates a reality for his partners in which they feel their needs, Venus, are not being met. And, because of this, such partners, over many lifetimes, have then reached out to other in order to have those needs met: the Venus squaring the S.Node in the 5th, the N.Node in the 11th. Thus, partners who have had 'secret' affairs behind his back.
And, of course, when these affairs become revealed to him in some way this then creates massive Soul crisis for him. So then the EA question to address is WHY is he creating these kinds of crises over and over ? What is the intention ? This then leads to what is going on within his Soul that correlates to his psychological / emotional withholding of himself in his intimate relationships ? And this would also include his sexuality: 2nd House Pluto/Uranus, the S.Node ruler being in Scorpio in the 5th, that comes right back to this Pluto/Uranus in the 2nd. This is also restated with the N.Node in Taurus in the 11th, the ruler itself being in Aquarius in the 7th and forming an inconjunction back to that Pluto/Uranus in the 2nd, squaring those Nodes. This sexuality dynamic is a key to understanding the psychological/emotional withholding from his intimate others.
And, within all of this, his Soul has, and is, creating real crisis from within itself that revolves around the issue of what will constitute REAL MEANING for him. What is the meaning of life for him ? To live a meaningful life that is consistent with what he deeply values and, thus, NEEDS ? With the Pluto/Uranus in the 2nd, the square to the Nodes, the Venus in Aquarius, these issues/ questions are critically linked to not only his skipped steps, but, also, the very dynamics that cause him to be DETACHED from within himself if the life that he chooses to live are at odds with who he really is. Thus, if he is detached within himself because of not being in HARMONY WITH HIS OWN SOUL, how does this then manifest in his relationships with others in general, and his intimate others specifically ?
And, of course, with the Venus squaring the Nodes he will repeat relationships with key intimate others from other lives in which these dyanmics have taken place with. What is the evolutionary and karmic intention that his Soul is playing out in doing this ?
Anyway, you have done a good job so far so just keep going and try to include these core issues in your ongoing analysis.
Rad
Hi Ellen,
I am not sure what you mean about how to 'save' your post ? Your post will remain here ..will not be deleated ...
Rad
Quote from: Rad on Feb 27, 2010, 09:12 AM
Hi Ellen,
I am not sure what you mean about how to 'save' your post ? Your post will remain here ..will not be deleated ...
Rad
Hi Rad,
I don't have internet at home so I use primarily the public library. I can also hop on at work during breaks, but that's very piecemeal. Re: the library - there are time limits on computer use depending on how many people want to use the computers here - at most I can for sure count on an hour - all day if no one else wants it, but you can't count on anything beyond an hour. RE: my post I was wondering if there was a way to compose a partial response and save it without posting it so that I could come back to it later to finish up. I have a different idea now, though. Would it be acceptable to attach a file? It would be more conducive to my thought process and to your request to compose my response at home and save to a flash drive and then post here as an attachment.
Let me know. I'd really like to be able to participate. I feel like I'm at a point where this exercise would be really helpful.
Thanks,
Ellen
PS If the answer to this is yes, would it also be acceptable with regard to me starting new threads in which I'm checking my understanding of various EA material? As an example, I'm currently working up an outline of the Natural Evolutionary States and I was hoping when I'm done to post it to get feedback to make sure I'm on track. Would it be acceptable to do this via attachment (on a different/new thread, of course)?
Ellen,
Exciting you are working on ways to make this work for you.
Hope it is okay to speak up here. I had a couple very long posts lost when my computer froze at the moment I hit post.
Now, any long post, all practice chart posts, are cut and pasted from a separate doc.
If I want to access it anywhere, I just cut and paste and email my work to myself and work within the email itself if need be.
Good Luck finding the system that supports your process.
Blessings,
Bradley
Quote from: Bradley J on Feb 27, 2010, 10:17 AM
Ellen,
Exciting you are working on ways to make this work for you.
Hope it is okay to speak up here. I had a couple very long posts lost when my computer froze at the moment I hit post.
Now, any long post, all practice chart posts, are cut and pasted from a separate doc.
If I want to access it anywhere, I just cut and paste and email my work to myself and work within the email itself if need be.
Good Luck finding the system that supports your process.
Blessings,
Bradley
Hi Bradley,
Thanks so much for your encouragement and for sharing what works for you. Computers definitely aren't my strong suit. I haven't quite figured out cutting/pasting here on this message board. I also see that it's possible to insert email, but haven't tried and am not quite sure how it works. Would you be willing to share with me some of what you know in this regard?
Nice to "meet" you,
Ellen
Hey Ellen,
Maybe the library computer has a word program that is password protected for your documents.
I just wanted to mention that what I did to save my post was I simply copy and pasted my posts onto a document (like use microsoft word or whatever the document program is.), Then I rewrite or add or whatever then I just cut and paste off of my document back onto this forum... it's easy. (Then I save those documents all in a folder which I will eventually keep adding to called "practice charts EA" to refer to whenever).
But since your using the public library computer, and/or if they don't have a Word Document Program w/ password prtection, for individual use then you, of course, can just leave it on this forum and just copy paste the text onto your next post too. But for me, I just prefer to have copies of my own (on my Word Program) and since I have my own Word Program for doc at home it is an easier situation for me to do.
However, I also have saved stuff on emails to myself --bc you can send email to the same email u compose from. maybe u can save your posts like that and then copy paste from there. This may very well be your best option for the library computer bc u can form and access an email account from anywhere.
Well, I hope that was clear. Just some suggestions that might be useful???.
Lovingly,
Dhyana
Hi Ellen,
Yes, of course, it's acceptable to start new threads with different EA topics in order to check your own understanding. That is, indeed, one of the very purposes of this message board.
Rad
Ellen, I just rewrote /modified that message to you with a better idea (in blue). So I hope you might re-read it. ????
Hi Rad,
I have two quick questions --
would it be best for me to leave out the parts about how these aspects might manifest as far as the life details (as in particulars, actually--as i did). Like, should I just stick to what the aspects mean rather then guessing into either a past life situation or a current one with particulars as I had done in my first post? I ask bc what you wrote about him attracting partners who may go elsewhere to find what this man cannot give, I simply wouldnt have figured that one out without you (atleast not yet) and the situations I was bouncing around were a bit off in light of what you mentioned (or were they?)? I also fee like I may have been writing scenarios that were influenced by people I know personally with a 2nd house Pluto in Virgo -- one being MY HUSBAND, and then my step Father with Second House Pluto also but in Leo (btw that coincidence of the 2nd House Pluto in Virgo like my husbands kinda blew my mind when you presented this as my first practice chart-- because all the house rulers were the same -along with (an assumed ) Leo Rising (SN conjunct in 2H though, not 5H like in the practice chart). Funny, I have been really trying to grok his chart for a while now. I guess we get what we need when we need it! LOL, Ha.)
I think these personal associations I have influence my answers? And although the scenarios I described differred bc of the Nodes placements and the Venus in the 7th which the individuals in my life do NOT have --I can say that I definately feltthat my description of Pluto in Virgo 2nd house was indeed based on my experience w/ my husband! (as well as my husband 7th house being in Aquarius --the emotional distancing from partner thing). So these were definately influencing my description in my first post.
So my first question is, basically, do you think it may be better for me not to guess at that stuff yet-- OR -- is that actually a useful thing to do?--U know, useful to use the info you have about those in your life to help you do anothers chatrt? ---Like, to think of people you know with the same Pluto placements etc and use that familiarity and insight to help develop some specifics for other clients?
Curious what you think?
And second quick Q I wanted to ask -- in reading what you have read thus far that I have written, could you yet tell where my strength lies and also my weakness(es). I know it is a little early in the game, but I do feel your a quite gifted in picking that kind of thing up quickly?
PS Rad, I Just MODIFIED THIS PART w/ this PS a FEW HOURS AFTER INITIALLY WRITING IT ---so with that said, BTW, i just posted new post down below after I wrote this to u --so maybe u could read that first then answer this particular question bc u will have more to go by.
Thanks so very much
Dhyana
Thank you so very much Rad.
OK, so taking off from what you said in your last message to me --when the affairs or "secrets" begin to be revealed to this man he has a massive soul crisis. And hence, the important question is WHY would his soul create this for him? What would the soul intend for him?
Well, if there is acting out through his partners by them having secret affairs, in a sexual way,
( indicated by Venus square nodes, SN 5H and Pluto by ruler-ship and even Uranus BC it is outside the cultural norm(Q?) --and if when moving from first stage individuated into second stage individuated, what needs to be brought to life comes objectively or from outside himself, then I would have to say that the first thing his soul is intending is for him to become more aware of his INDIVIDUALNESS (Uranus H2) through the sexual/sensual arena. His soul would like him to become familiar, intimate and honest with his own sexual nature, desires and needs --whatever they may be and no matter how that might not fit in to a certain model of his class, peers or society (NN TAURUS 11H).
It is imperative for him to become intimate with himself on a sexual level --his own repressed sexuality and or his own repressed sexual urges(PLUTO) that are outside the acceptable norm in the society in which he lives (URANUS) --perhaps including sexual fantasies that may seem "abnormal" considering the culture and class he is in.--For him to move into his next stage of evolution, to metamorphose (as you said Rad) his soul is longing for him to be honest with himself about his desires his hidden sexual needs--to embrace and acknowledge them as a real and legitimate part of himself as something he legitimately "values"--To embrace this rather than to continue the unconsciousness that ends up having others act it out for him making him a victim. -- Being the victim someone elses infidelity and sexual urges lets him play with the age old SN and avoid H8PPP pisces merging --; & SN5 in Scorpio, maintaining a powerlessness by believing he has nothing contributing to the betrayals (BC at least we could say that certainly the energy he carries did attract the kind of partner(s) that do this). This is one way he could be in HARMONY with his own soul, at this stage of his evolution.
As an aside; Perhaps in another life, he was the one doing the 5H infidelity (SN 5th house in Scorpio) and hence the mate and/or entire family w/ children (5H) up and left in that lifetime,(which he/she most likely dearly valued) -so as with Virgo/Pluto 2H, everything he thought he valued most high-(mate and family, and perhaps monetary assets(2H) to take care of them), was pulled out from under
him = soul crisis (/Pluto/Uranus).in this current incarnation he may be carrying a guilt of his sexual nature and hence ATONING (virgo pluto). (Rad is this past life part accurate to put in here?Q)
His honesty and recognition of his own (perhaps somewhat alternative?Q) sexual longings and desires are just one facet of this souls unfolding to itself. The next part of this will be for him to come to KNOW what it is that he does VALUE in this life? What, as an individual, does he hold most dear to his heart? In other words, what is his BOTTOM LINE?
He needs to find out what his very own values are -- for himself alone, BC I would bet that he too often knows how to serve others needs (VIRGO)and what they value but in that has lost touch with his own --which he needs to discover rather than live vicariously through others or unconsciously through the senses the senses he will need to become more A PART OF HIS SENSUAL NATURE AND THE SENSUAL NATURE AROUND HIM --H11NN also) perhaps (NN TAURUS & VENUS SQUARE NODE in 7H.)
As he caves into others desires and wants (Virgo) unable to even identify his own needs and values there will have to be a place those repressed feelings of powerlessness go to (SN 5H and perhaps the house Mars abides, however I do not know where Mars, the lower octave of Pluto, is yet). So he will act that out POWER OR attract those who will act that out that POWER (SOUTH NODE 5H).The 5th house often being the house of romantic escapades, sport, and finding ways of becoming/doing -as an outlet to "shine" that power (H5).
What this soul may come to as his bottom line is LIFE -and I write it in caps bc I mean it literally, as in LIFE of the body -LIFE FORCE of the body and being intimate in an earthy fashion to that via trough his inner acknowledgemnt and appreciation for his SEXUAL/SENSUAL NATURE BODY.. - As he comes in touch with his own life force and regeneration capacity by embracing the sexual lessons of Pluto there, he will re-claim his individual soul power --the power of his body --and even the power to heal and make strong that body (Virgo), --He will care for the needs appropriately of his BODY before he meets the needs of others.. and in this his agenda with others will be born out of something sincere... to serve from a place of abundance of lifes good things.. not to serve others values and martyr himself. This can also be his clearing up of the Venus skipped step H7.
The opportunity to have a life living in a body (Pluto in the Taurus house and in an Earth sign Virgo)... A very pure feeling of the body itself and the GIFT and chance to truly IMMERSE himself in the senses in a purer way, with intimate partners too... In an alive way -to experience the touch of the physical in other and earth things, sensual, as well (Pluto in VIRGO EARTH and NN Taurus 11.) WITHOUT GUILT AND WITHOUT ADHERING TO THE VIEWS OF THE CULTURAL NORM (BUT NOT ACTING OUT AGAINST THEM EITHER.. IN A RESPNSIBLE FASHION -- in other words, "being in the world but not of it" kinda thing-- ) -- To experience bodily life and the engagement of the SENSES in this more personally fufilling and cleaner way is to be IN HARMONY with his souls intention in an INDIVIUAL expression.Q?
When this soul can become more familar and comfortable with this own souls longings and desires -- when he can identify and embody more of his own personal , sensual and sexual desires and longings simply as the flavor of his own uniqueness; Not to and feel ashamed of, but to embrace as himself without judgement and guilt -- In other words, to start seeing the whole sexual arena in a completely new and objective way (Venus in Aquarius). A way that is fresh and with much less societal baggage and conditioning, then he can begin to do the same with his intimate partners! (skipped step Venus NN11, Venus inconjunct Uranus). Rad, which one?Q -or is it all of them?)
He will feel more comfortable with them because he will feel more at ease with himself, just as he is. And with that he will be able to intimately connect with his partners on levels he had not known before bc there was this hidden FEAR (pluto) that they may see the "real him" (the one w/ "bad/wrong" sexual thoughts etc) or that he may see the "real them" --whatever those repressed sexual energies made him believe. In other words, their desires that are not as culturally acceptable or whatever.
As he begins to awaken to the uniquness and individuality within himself through this area of his nature, and connect with others more intimately as he passes through his projected sexual fears/desires, he will then be able to create relationships that embody more equality bc he will be meeting these individuals from a completely different vibration of honoring his individuality.
I do have more for this chart, but BC I am so new to this I have to wait for more feedback from Rad or whomever to proceed.
Thanks Again for this opportunity.
PS. Any where in my text that u see a Q? --that means I need some clarification or that I am not sure about that and would like some help there. FYI.
Peace,
Dhyana
Hi Dhyana,
"So my first question is, basically, do you think it may be better for me not to guess at that stuff yet-- OR -- is that actually a useful thing to do?--U know, useful to use the info you have about those in your life to help you do anothers chatrt? ---Like, to think of people you know with the same Pluto placements etc and use that familiarity and insight to help develop some specifics for other clients?
Curious what you think?"
***************************************************************************
It is never a good thing to 'guess' at all. It is essential in EA that we have a total grasp of the archetypes as defined by Houses, Signs, and Planets. Once we have these archetypes understood then it's a matter of understanding how they interact in each individuals life: their specific context. And part of that context is the evolutionary stage of development. Within this of course is the totality of the EA paradigm and it's interacts within itself in each chart, each and every individual Soul. Once these things are understood it is then a matter of applying a natural reasoning to this paradigm. This is why in these practice charts I really like to see that actual reasoning that is being used to support whatever analytical statements are being made.
Of course it can be beneficial to use one's experience with other people, charts, that one has worked with before because that does correlate to a working knowledge based on experience. Yet, each Soul is it's own Soul. Each has their own individual story coming through time, and the reasons for that story. Thus, not one size fits all. So in you using your husbands chart, etc, and then projecting his dynamics into this practice chart is where you, or anyone else doing such a thing, can go wrong. Your husbands, etc, individual context, Soul story, is not the same as this practice chart, or anyone else's.
**************************************************************************
"And second quick Q I wanted to ask -- in reading what you have read thus far that I have written, could you yet tell where my strength lies and also my weakness(es). I know it is a little early in the game, but I do feel your a quite gifted in picking that kind of thing up quickly?"
**************************************************************************
Thus far I feel your strength in your capacity to intuitively reason within the symbols presented. Thus, a core grasping of the whole design symbolized in the EA paradigm. As for the 'weakness' my sense just now is not having a deep enough understanding as to the dynamics the Soul has been working on within itself in the prior lives that are applying to the current life. This understanding of course is essential in order to understand the reality of the current life, and the evolutionary intentions as a result. This is a common 'weakness' though, and not unique to you. As you progress, evolve, stay committed to learning the EA paradigm this will change.
**************************************************************************
Rad
Hi Dhyana,
Quote from: DhyanaDec2 on Feb 27, 2010, 10:33 PM
Thank you so very much Rad.
OK, so taking off from what you said in your last message to me --when the affairs or "secrets" begin to be revealed to this man he has a massive soul crisis. And hence, the important question is WHY would his soul create this for him? What would the soul intend for him?
Well, if there is acting out through his partners by them having secret affairs, in a sexual way,
( indicated by Venus square nodes, SN 5H and Pluto by ruler-ship and even Uranus BC it is outside the cultural norm(Q?) --
***************************************************************************
Yes, this is the signature of having partners who seek out affairs or unions with others. This issue of such a thing being outside 'cultural norms' would not be true because, ever sense the patriarchy has been in place, liaisons and affairs with others has indeed BEEN THE NORM.
**************************************************************************
and if when moving from first stage individuated into second stage individuated, what needs to be brought to life comes objectively or from outside himself, then I would have to say that the first thing his soul is intending is for him to become more aware of his INDIVIDUALNESS (Uranus H2) through the sexual/sensual arena. His soul would like him to become familiar, intimate and honest with his own sexual nature, desires and needs --whatever they may be and no matter how that might not fit in to a certain model of his class, peers or society (NN TAURUS 11H).
It is imperative for him to become intimate with himself on a sexual level --his own repressed sexuality and or his own repressed sexual urges(PLUTO) that are outside the acceptable norm in the society in which he lives (URANUS) --perhaps including sexual fantasies that may seem "abnormal" considering the culture and class he is in.--For him to move into his next stage of evolution, to metamorphose (as you said Rad) his soul is longing for him to be honest with himself about his desires his hidden sexual needs--to embrace and acknowledge them as a real and legitimate part of himself as something he legitimately "values"--To embrace this rather than to continue the unconsciousness that ends up having others act it out for him making him a victim. -- Being the victim someone elses infidelity and sexual urges lets him play with the age old SN and avoid H8PPP pisces merging --; & SN5 in Scorpio, maintaining a powerlessness by believing he has nothing contributing to the betrayals (BC at least we could say that certainly the energy he carries did attract the kind of partner(s) that do this). This is one way he could be in HARMONY with his own soul, at this stage of his evolution.
As an aside; Perhaps in another life, he was the one doing the 5H infidelity (SN 5th house in Scorpio) and hence the mate and/or entire family w/ children (5H) up and left in that lifetime,(which he/she most likely dearly valued) -so as with Virgo/Pluto 2H, everything he thought he valued most high-(mate and family, and perhaps monetary assets(2H) to take care of them), was pulled out from under
him = soul crisis (/Pluto/Uranus).in this current incarnation he may be carrying a guilt of his sexual nature and hence ATONING (virgo pluto). (Rad is this past life part accurate to put in here?Q)
****************************************************************************
Yes, it is right to understand the prior life dynamics that are responsible for what this Soul has created, and why. This core issue is not one of 'infidelity' of his part in prior lives that is the cause of his partners seeking out others to be intimate with. The core issue is symbolized in the Pluto/Uranus conjunction in the 2nd, squaring the 5th House S.Node in Scorpio: his sexuality is very intense yet is FOCUSED ON HIMSELF. This is a Soul who has been focused on the symbol of the penis, the phallus, as all powerful. A SOURCE OF CREATION: 5th House. Thus, a Soul who used himself, his own body as a vehicle of stability, self reliance, and developing a deep inner relationship to itself. Thus, his primary sexual focus has been himself in prior lives: masturbation. And, because of this primary focus, his partners have felt their own sexual needs have been neglected which has caused them to fulfill their needs elsewhere.
And, because of this primary focus, his penis has become highly sensitized to his own touch: 2nd House Pluto/Uranus in Virgo that impacts on the nerves ( Virgo=nerves). So even when he would have intercourse with his partner he would then ejaculate very quickly. This then simply adds to his partner not feeling that their needs are not being met. In essence, this Soul has been highly narcissistic within itself in general, and on sexual level specifically. This core narcissism is rooted in the symbol and power of the phallus as this Soul perceives it. And, as a result of this, the Soul will be attracted to the power of the phallus in other men. The Pluto/Uranus in Virgo conjunction in the 2nd is thus, in this context, a signature of bi-sexuality even as his core desires are for men first. By having women partners in which all of these dynamics are playing out one of the main messages, spoken or unspoken, from these women partners over lifetimes in one of being 'inadequate' ... Virgo ... sexually speaking.
***************************************************************************
His honesty and recognition of his own (perhaps somewhat alternative?Q) sexual longings and desires are just one facet of this souls unfolding to itself. The next part of this will be for him to come to KNOW what it is that he does VALUE in this life? What, as an individual, does he hold most dear to his heart? In other words, what is his BOTTOM LINE?
**************************************************************************
Yes, and how to proceed from there: how to create a life that honors his whole being. This will. of itself, require that he examine the causes of the unresolved traumas, Pluto/Uranus, squaring the Nodes one of which is in the 11th, Venus in Aquarius, that have kept him emotionally detached from his life including his own core being, his nature, his Soul.
***************************************************************************
He needs to find out what his very own values are -- for himself alone, BC I would bet that he too often knows how to serve others needs (VIRGO)and what they value but in that has lost touch with his own --which he needs to discover rather than live vicariously through others or unconsciously through the senses the senses he will need to become more A PART OF HIS SENSUAL NATURE AND THE SENSUAL NATURE AROUND HIM --H11NN also) perhaps (NN TAURUS & VENUS SQUARE NODE in 7H.)
As he caves into others desires and wants (Virgo) unable to even identify his own needs and values there will have to be a place those repressed feelings of powerlessness go to (SN 5H and perhaps the house Mars abides, however I do not know where Mars, the lower octave of Pluto, is yet). So he will act that out POWER OR attract those who will act that out that POWER (SOUTH NODE 5H).The 5th house often being the house of romantic escapades, sport, and finding ways of becoming/doing -as an outlet to "shine" that power (H5).
What this soul may come to as his bottom line is LIFE -and I write it in caps bc I mean it literally, as in LIFE of the body -LIFE FORCE of the body and being intimate in an earthy fashion to that via trough his inner acknowledgemnt and appreciation for his SEXUAL/SENSUAL NATURE BODY.. - As he comes in touch with his own life force and regeneration capacity by embracing the sexual lessons of Pluto there, he will re-claim his individual soul power --the power of his body --and even the power to heal and make strong that body (Virgo), --He will care for the needs appropriately of his BODY before he meets the needs of others.. and in this his agenda with others will be born out of something sincere... to serve from a place of abundance of lifes good things.. not to serve others values and martyr himself. This can also be his clearing up of the Venus skipped step H7.
**************************************************************************
No. He is already very intimate with his own body as explained above. This is what is SAFE FOR HIM. It is what he knows, and what he can trust. And that has been reinforced over many lifetimes by having partners, for all the reasons explained above, who have gone elsewhere to have their needs met: which is part of the unresolved traumas that he brings into the current life. That, of itself, contributes to his inability to totally engage his intimate others because of the deep FEAR OF LOSS AND BETRAYAL that comes with him into the current life: the S.Node in Scorpio in the 5th.
*****************************************************************************
The opportunity to have a life living in a body (Pluto in the Taurus house and in an Earth sign Virgo)... A very pure feeling of the body itself and the GIFT and chance to truly IMMERSE himself in the senses in a purer way, with intimate partners too... In an alive way -to experience the touch of the physical in other and earth things, sensual, as well (Pluto in VIRGO EARTH and NN Taurus 11.) WITHOUT GUILT AND WITHOUT ADHERING TO THE VIEWS OF THE CULTURAL NORM (BUT NOT ACTING OUT AGAINST THEM EITHER.. IN A RESPNSIBLE FASHION -- in other words, "being in the world but not of it" kinda thing-- ) -- To experience bodily life and the engagement of the SENSES in this more personally fufilling and cleaner way is to be IN HARMONY with his souls intention in an INDIVIUAL expression.Q?
****************************************************************************
Yes, but this of course demands that he deals with all the issues that we have been discussing.
*************************************************************************
When this soul can become more familar and comfortable with this own souls longings and desires -- when he can identify and embody more of his own personal , sensual and sexual desires and longings simply as the flavor of his own uniqueness; Not to and feel ashamed of, but to embrace as himself without judgement and guilt -- In other words, to start seeing the whole sexual arena in a completely new and objective way (Venus in Aquarius). A way that is fresh and with much less societal baggage and conditioning, then he can begin to do the same with his intimate partners! (skipped step Venus NN11, Venus inconjunct Uranus). Rad, which one?Q -or is it all of them?)
***************************************************************************
Yes
***************************************************************************
He will feel more comfortable with them because he will feel more at ease with himself, just as he is. And with that he will be able to intimately connect with his partners on levels he had not known before bc there was this hidden FEAR (pluto) that they may see the "real him" (the one w/ "bad/wrong" sexual thoughts etc) or that he may see the "real them" --whatever those repressed sexual energies made him believe. In other words, their desires that are not as culturally acceptable or whatever.
As he begins to awaken to the uniquness and individuality within himself through this area of his nature, and connect with others more intimately as he passes through his projected sexual fears/desires, he will then be able to create relationships that embody more equality bc he will be meeting these individuals from a completely different vibration of honoring his individuality.
I do have more for this chart, but BC I am so new to this I have to wait for more feedback from Rad or whomever to proceed.
Thanks Again for this opportunity.
PS. Any where in my text that u see a Q? --that means I need some clarification or that I am not sure about that and would like some help there. FYI.
Peace,
Dhyana
Keep going Dhyana,
Rad
Quote from: DhyanaDec2 on Feb 27, 2010, 11:40 AM
Hi Again ELLEN
Oops, looks like Bradley J already mentioned it.... But again, more specifically, If you have an email account it would be very easy for you to use that bc u can just use it in replace of a Word Program, do u know what I mean. Just use the compose email section of your emails for the body of your text as if it was a document. Then, all you have to do is put your very same email ADDRESS in the "TO:" spot and just send it to yourself and then it will be in your "NEW MAIL"... know what I mean? Then just keep saving your mail to yourself. I know in my email I can create folders etc. You can copy and paste on to the forum from there AND YOU ALSO can keep updating the body of your text as your developing it, by copying and pasting onto ne COMPOSE EMAIL and the begin typing more and send that to yourself --Well, I sure hope this made sense to you bc it did to me?
In case you didnt know i thought I would also mention how t to copy and paste === all you do is highlight the text that you want to copy from the forum page or from wherever and then go to "edit " drop down menu (at the top of any window page) and click on copy --then you may minimize that window and open your new window without loosing that one bc it is minimized, --then with your cursor you click where you want to apply/paste that chunk of text you just copied--go back to "edit" drop menu and click paste. Thats about it. I don't think you will have to bother putting the attachments of documents and emails on here bc you can simply open 2 windows --one for this forum and then one for where your typing/copying from your document (either email or word program) and with the minmize option at the top of your current pages you can just switch back and forth,copying and pasting, minimizing whichever window your working from.. Does that make sense? I will be happy to further explain if needed bc i know when i just started using these computer tricks i would get confused too. but it is really very simple
Well, in any event, sure hope you find a way to participate bc I enjoyed reading your last shorter post for sure!
Dhyana :)
Hi Dhyana,
Thanks so much for your posts. I'm sick as a dog right now so can't look at them in detail. For the life of me I really don't get how to cut and paste into this forum. I'm just not seeing the options. Could you point them out to me? I may not end up using it because I'd still have the time limitation re: public library computer, but it could come in handy.
Thanks a million,
Ellen
Quote from: Ellen on Feb 26, 2010, 04:55 AM
Quote from: Rad on Feb 25, 2010, 08:52 AM
Hi Practice Charts Group,
Ok, so we will start with a new paradigm. We will make this the chart of a white male, born into upper middle economic conditions, no specific religious conditioning, born in Canada, who is in the last stages of the 1st Stage Individuated evolutionary condition, who has Pluto in Virgo conjunct Uransu in the 2nd House, S.Node is in Scorpio in the 5th House, N.Node in Taurus in the 11th, and it's ruler Venus in Aqaurius in the 7th, and it's squaring the Nodes. Additionally, that Venus is inconjunct the natal Uranus.
Let's have a go at it !
Rad
Hi Rad,
I'm submitting my attempt via attachment. For the moment it's the only way I can figure out how make this work in terms of public library time limits and the need to spend more time and more focused time on a full analysis. Hope this is ok.
Ellen
PS I may not be back on the board for a few days. I woke up w/ a nasty stomach bug - hope it's brief. Now off to bed.... :-\
Hey Ellen, I do hope u get well soon! I just read ur attachment document. Thank you so much for ur work. This is so helpful to see others analysis! That's y I want u to stay on and post too!
Anyhow, I would love to help you by explaining the copy paste thing.. and i think it sound so much more complicated in writing then in actually doing it. Do you have a Word Program at hom but simply do not have internet connection there? And thats y u go to the library?
I ask bc if you have something at home, I can easily OVER THE PHONE, lead u through how to copy and paste and then u will know how to do it anywhere you go. I would be willing to do that if you want. I can leave my phone number on here for a day or so (then I would erase it after you got it) and you can just call me (after you feel better of course). OR I can just post a message on this board under another listing thread (not here on Re:Practice Charts) and just type out steps in fine detail if the phone thing doesnt work for u. LET ME KNOW?
Dhyana
Quote from: Ellen on Feb 28, 2010, 10:15 AM
Quote from: DhyanaDec2 on Feb 27, 2010, 11:40 AM
Hi Again ELLEN
Oops, looks like Bradley J already mentioned it.... But again, more specifically, If you have an email account it would be very easy for you to use that bc u can just use it in replace of a Word Program, do u know what I mean. Just use the compose email section of your emails for the body of your text as if it was a document. Then, all you have to do is put your very same email ADDRESS in the "TO:" spot and just send it to yourself and then it will be in your "NEW MAIL"... know what I mean? Then just keep saving your mail to yourself. I know in my email I can create folders etc. You can copy and paste on to the forum from there AND YOU ALSO can keep updating the body of your text as your developing it, by copying and pasting onto ne COMPOSE EMAIL and the begin typing more and send that to yourself --Well, I sure hope this made sense to you bc it did to me?
In case you didnt know i thought I would also mention how t to copy and paste === all you do is highlight the text that you want to copy from the forum page or from wherever and then go to "edit " drop down menu (at the top of any window page) and click on copy --then you may minimize that window and open your new window without loosing that one bc it is minimized, --then with your cursor you click where you want to apply/paste that chunk of text you just copied--go back to "edit" drop menu and click paste. Thats about it. I don't think you will have to bother putting the attachments of documents and emails on here bc you can simply open 2 windows --one for this forum and then one for where your typing/copying from your document (either email or word program) and with the minmize option at the top of your current pages you can just switch back and forth,copying and pasting, minimizing whichever window your working from.. Does that make sense? I will be happy to further explain if needed bc i know when i just started using these computer tricks i would get confused too. but it is really very simple
Well, in any event, sure hope you find a way to participate bc I enjoyed reading your last shorter post for sure!
Dhyana :)
Hi Dhyana,
Thanks so much for your posts. I'm sick as a dog right now so can't look at them in detail. For the life of me I really don't get how to cut and paste into this forum. I'm just not seeing the options. Could you point them out to me? I may not end up using it because I'd still have the time limitation re: public library computer, but it could come in handy.
Thanks a million,
Ellen
Hey ellen (again)
In order to paste onto this forum from a work already done, you would do it the same way as if you were pasting anywhere --THE PASTE OPTION IS NOT ON THIS PARTICULAR FORUM ITSELF, IT IS SOMETHING THAT IS ON YOUR ACTUAL SCREEN WINDOW ITSELF --meaning it is not an option that comes from within the EA forum ---- on the very top of my computer screen right now, I see the words FILE EDIT VIEW FAVORITES TOOLS HELP -- it is t that portion of the window i am speaking of. With some computers though, u may have to RIGHT CLICK for that menu --but on most WINDOWS Programs I have seen that is generally there.
well, read over my other posts and see how i can help u
Dhyana
Rad,
I've been milling over applying the gender, race, and social class to this assignment.
Before proceeding, I'm hoping for feedback on my thought process thus far.
Our "person" is white, male, and born in the upper middle class in Canada.
I did a bit of research regarding white and male privilege in Canada since I am still quite ignorant to cultural dynamics outside my own "bubble of reality".
It appears that, as in America, being born both white and male in Canada, esp. with an upper middle class birth, there is a lot of "unconscious privilege" which he would have been born with.
One example of what I've been thinking about here is:
If this were a woman, relative to the pluto/uranus virgo in 2nd house, we would expect to see the cultural impact of conditioning in which there would be this virgonian self criticism of "something wrong with me" as they are not able to sexually satisfy partners, probably men earlier in the life. If the pattern continued with men or women, there may be stronger conscious conditioning to deal with.
In comparison, because we are discussing a male - a male who has had a privilege in life to think that "nothing is wrong with masterbation/self satisfaction" - much more accepted for a man than a woman.
So, if all the above holds truth, can we determine that the conditioned "okay-ness" of who he is in light of "unconscious privilege" will require greater shocks of self failure to, thru crisis, trigger the necessary evolutionary self improvements? (Greater relative to others in less privileged situations who are familiar with the struggle of "not good enough" or "something is wrong with me" many times before)
Hope my question makes sense,
Thank you again,
Bradley
Quote from: Rad on Feb 25, 2010, 08:52 AM
Hi Practice Charts Group,
Ok, so we will start with a new paradigm. We will make this the chart of a white male, born into upper middle economic conditions, no specific religious conditioning, born in Canada, who is in the last stages of the 1st Stage Individuated evolutionary condition, who has Pluto in Virgo conjunct Uransu in the 2nd House, S.Node is in Scorpio in the 5th House, N.Node in Taurus in the 11th, and it's ruler Venus in Aqaurius in the 7th, and it's squaring the Nodes. Additionally, that Venus is inconjunct the natal Uranus.
Let's have a go at it !
Rad
Thanks so much again Rad! I am going to do a little studying for the next day or so before I post again. Your responses were extremely useful.
Be back soon.
Dhyana
Hi Bradley,
The shocks that the Soul will create in order to enforce it's evolutionary intentions as symbolized by his 8th House polarity point, the N.Node in the 11th in Taurus ruled by the 7th House Venus in Aquarius, will be rooted in losing a partner(s) for the reasons that we have been talking about so far. And those reasons really have nothing to do with the relative 'privileges' , or lack of, because of the economic stations that he has been born into. Those shocks will hurt just as much whether he is a millionaire or in some other economic situation.
On a sexual level, whether male or female, this signature will typically correlate to learning various sexual techniques .. Virgo ... that somehow are linked to sexual fulfillment of the partner because of the underlying feeling of inadequacy within them self. This just reinforces the mental approach to the sexuality versus emotional engagement that is the real underlying issue that can lead their partners elsewhere. In essence, this can create an orientation to the sexual needs of the partner that equal 'sexual servicing' of the partner versus actual emotional/soul engagement. The orientation to learning/ applying the sexual techniques can also include, depending on the whole context of the chart, those that are aimed rooted in various forms of inducing intensity. When this is the case this is a compensation for the inner emptiness felt from within. And that emptiness can then of course be reflected in the relationship with the partner so that the induced sexual technique creating such intensity creates a temporary sense of meaningfulness, of being 'together', as a counteractive point to the actual reality of the relationship: it's core emptiness. Additionally, in the signature that we are working with this learning of various techniques in order to induce the desired response is to 'prove', S.Node in Scorpio in the 5th relative to the 2nd House Pluto/Uranus in Virgo, to himself his 'sexual power's' that, in the end, are about him feeling 'ok' within himself about himself in order to counteract the inner sense of inadequacy. So, in the end, its is a very narcissistic orientation anyway.
Rad
OK, here it is! (Need I say more?!)
Thank you, everyone (!) for your help!
This individual has been instinctually rebelling against the profound inner emptiness he has felt due to the narrow frame of reality in which he has lived (Pluto/Uranus/Virgo/2nd house). He has been questioning in a very deep way the beliefs and values that have grounded him in his reality. He has been asking in a very deep way, "What is the meaning and purpose of my life, of my very existence?" (SN/Scorpio/5th together with the 2nd house and also, possibly, a Last Quarter aspect between Pluto/SN - is this correct that if they are in aspect, it is a Last Quarter square, ie, not a First Quarter square?). His probing has continually led him back to the emptiness of the values with which he has lived and grounded his being (Pluto rulership of SN) which has led to crisis - in beliefs, in relationship and in consciousness (Venus inconjunct Uranus). And it is this dynamic that has, over time, evolved him to the individuated state. In this state, he has come to feel progressively alienated from the society (ie, status quo values and beliefs) of the societies into which he has been born. Inwardly, there is still a part of him that would like to try to conform - to at least look as though he fits in - and thus hold onto at least a remnant of security (2nd house, Scorpio). But he is nearing the point in his own evolution when he will no longer be able to keep this up - when the sense of alienation will be complete (latter stages of 1st stage individuated, nearing early stages of 2nd stage individuated).
Currently, in this life, he is needing to recover skipped steps (Venus applying to SN). He has been going back and forth between deeply probing his circumstances - his values, beliefs, his sense of self and purpose - to settling for the comfort and security of the group (Venus in Aquarius square the Scorpio 5th house/Taurus 11th house nodal axis). The skipped steps he is needing to recover involve delving more fully into the penetrating questioning he has been doing - to allow himself to truly feel and know the utter emptiness of his being and experience and to get to the core of his feelings of guilt (Virgo/Pisces axis). He will be questioning all the expectations that the society into which he has been born has for him. "Why have children," for example (2nd/5th houses). "Why marry?" (Scorpio and also Venus in Balsamic Phase with PPP). The very wealth into which he has been born may feel claustrophobic (Scorpio) and alienating (2nd house Uranus) to him and he may instinctually attempt to throw that off in this lifetime - to rebel against it (Pluto/Uranus in New Phase Conjunction) - thus inducing a crisis (inconjunct to Venus) in which he must rely on a community of alienated others (Venus/Aquarius/7th house) for a sense of security (2nd house/Taurus NN). By deeply questioning his circumstances, by instinctually rebelling against that which feels stifling to him at the very core of his being, he will provoke within himself a necessary anger response (eventual 2nd stage individuated), keeping him separate and alienated. In this way he gains the psychological space he needs to come to know himself as himself, as a unique and special individual.
Crisis is a strong theme in this chart (Virgo, Pluto/Uranus in New Phase, Uranus/Venus inconjunct, Scorpio SN, the increasing realization that he does not fit in) and is necessary for the need to develop self-knowledge indicated in the chart. At the same time the NN in Taurus wants comfort and security in the group (11th house). The primary danger is escapism (PPP in Pisces) and a general loss or confusion of boundaries. He may, for example, simply adopt the values of others, avoiding the need to look deeply within to discover his own value/s and providing for himself the appearance of fitting in (Full Phase polarity to Pluto/Uranus conjunction and still in 1st stage individuated). With his inherited circumstance of wealth, he may allow himself (his resources) to be used by others, perhaps feeling guilty (Virgo) for his circumstance and perhaps still remembering at an unconscious level the feeling of security that came from being a part of the consensus (Pluto/Uranus in New Phase and still in 1st Stage Individuated). At the same time, allowing his resources to be used would provide him with a false sense of security, false because the only real security for him in this life is coming to know himself within himself and his sense of purpose in life which derives from this inner knowing. Another danger is the danger of substance abuse or some other form of escapism (PPP in Pisces), this corresponding to his increasing need to hook up with like-minded others, ie, falling into the wrong crowd (Venus in Aquarius and nearing 2nd stage individuated). Again, the possibility of being used exists here. In each case the danger that he falls into will trigger crises which will then enforce the need to look deeply within to come to come to know himself.
One positive manifestation of the chart that I see is the possibility of engaging in humanitarian work, ie, helping others to meet their basic needs (Venus/Aquarius/11th house/Virgo/Pisces/Uranus). There would still be the danger of focusing on appearing like everyone else. Yet work of this kind could bring him into contact with a diversity of others, giving him the chance to compare and contrast basic values. Thus in a detached way (Aquarius) he could engage in the inner work of coming to know himself within. Anger and crises would still manifest, but in a less self-destructive way. However, because he is in the latter stages of 1st Stage Individuated, and thus the angry rebellion of the 2nd Stage Individuated is looming, even this work, it seems, could only lead to a more profound sense of alienation.
Quote from: Rad on Feb 26, 2010, 09:54 AM
Hi Dhyana,
To answer your question about the awareness of his own inner blocks, his emotional withholding and distancing. At his point of evolution, last part of 1st Stage individuated, that awareness will come through the feedback of his partners: Venus in the 7th, squaring the 5th House S.Node.
Hi Rad,
I am wondering what this actually LOOKS like in a 1st stage individuated PROGRESSING towards (FULLY ALIENATED) 2nd stage. I have a hard time picturing how it plays out other than negatively...? Does one have to look at the chart as a blueprint of the Soul through ALL the stages, ie, so you understand the ultimate positive/constructive potential but, given the stage understand the more negative limitations of the current lifetime? Does this make sense? (Same ? with the rest of the post).
Ellen
Later on in the EA stages, 3rd Stage Individuated and beyond, that awareness could occur within the Soul itself. The function of having his Venus in Aqarius, the 11th House N.Node, is to create relationships with others who have the affect of helping him 'objectify' himself in total: his psychology and the reasons for it. And the intention within this, Pluto's 8th House polarity, the ongoing S.Node in Scorpio in the 5th, N.Node in the 11th, is to completly metamorphose from his existing state of being. To recreate himself anew. The external sources who help him objectify his existing psychological reality, and the reasons for it, are created by this Soul for these purposes.
I have read through your analysis and will get back to you tomorrow on it. For now what you are identifying is generally correct.
Rad
Quote from: Rad on Feb 28, 2010, 09:13 AM
****************************************************************************
The core issue is symbolized in the Pluto/Uranus conjunction in the 2nd, squaring the 5th House S.Node in Scorpio: his sexuality is very intense yet is FOCUSED ON HIMSELF. This is a Soul who has been focused on the symbol of the penis, the phallus, as all powerful. A SOURCE OF CREATION: 5th House. Thus, a Soul who used himself, his own body as a vehicle of stability, self reliance, and developing a deep inner relationship to itself.
>Hi Rad,
I'm wanting to check my understanding of the logic here. Is this because he has just emerged from the Consensus State, and thus has identified (his Soul has identified) with the patriarchy - with the power of it, and wanting it - which would reinforce this narcissistic orientation at the consensus level? And he would not even recognize the effects that this narcissism is having on others and on himself in a negative way...?
Ellen
PS Thanks, Dhyana, for your posts.
Hi Ellen,
"I am wondering what this actually LOOKS like in a 1st stage individuated PROGRESSING towards (FULLY ALIENATED) 2nd stage. I have a hard time picturing how it plays out other than negatively...? Does one have to look at the chart as a blueprint of the Soul through ALL the stages, ie, so you understand the ultimate positive/constructive potential but, given the stage understand the more negative limitations of the current lifetime? Does this make sense? (Same ? with the rest of the post)."
****************************************************************************
First, we need to resist judging any given Soul's evolutionary process as negative or positive. It should simply be seen and understood as it naturally is, it's necessity, and the reasons for that necessity. The way it 'looks like' in this paradigm is that the Soul will attract to itself key people who provide the 'feedback' by way of conversations that help this Soul unlock who he actually is, and why. These types of conversations will be born out through various kinds of conflict he will have with the intimate others in his life. The evolutionary stage of development simply correlates to where any given Soul is it's evolutionary journey relative to it's own realizations about it's individual nature, and it's relationship to that which has created it in the first place: The Source Of All Things.
Rad
Hi Ellen,
"The core issue is symbolized in the Pluto/Uranus conjunction in the 2nd, squaring the 5th House S.Node in Scorpio: his sexuality is very intense yet is FOCUSED ON HIMSELF. This is a Soul who has been focused on the symbol of the penis, the phallus, as all powerful. A SOURCE OF CREATION: 5th House. Thus, a Soul who used himself, his own body as a vehicle of stability, self reliance, and developing a deep inner relationship to itself."
Hi Rad,
I'm wanting to check my understanding of the logic here. Is this because he has just emerged from the Consensus State, and thus has identified (his Soul has identified) with the patriarchy - with the power of it, and wanting it - which would reinforce this narcissistic orientation at the consensus level? And he would not even recognize the effects that this narcissism is having on others and on himself in a negative way...?
****************************************************************************
The logic is the astrological signature itself: the symbols we are using. It's because he is in the 1st Stage Individuated that has caused him to live an external life that appears 'normal' from consensus point of view, thus heterosexual because this is the consensus norm, yet within his Soul signature being a male orientated bisexual. The male orientation is determined because of the placement of the Nodes, and thus he perception of the power of the Phallus. The narcissism in these symbols is determined because of his evolutionary state: a state of ongoing individuated self discovery. Yes, he would be unaware of the effects of his narcissism on intimate others in his life. It is through the feedback of such partners that he would then become aware.
Rad
Hi Ellen,
A very good first effort on your part. I can see you trying to use the natural reasoning of the EA paradigm to generate your analysis. Bravo for this.
**************************************************************************
"(SN/Scorpio/5th together with the 2nd house and also, possibly, a Last Quarter aspect between Pluto/SN - is this correct that if they are in aspect, it is a Last Quarter square, ie, not a First Quarter square?)."
***************************************************************************
Yes, last quarter ................
Rad
Hi Rad,
I am having trouble formulating anything beyond what I already have for this chart. I think there are a couple reasons for this (AND I am hoping you may pick up on any additional reason(s) I may be stuck, and relay it to me)?
The one reason is becuase I cannot understand how you came to the issue of his bisexuality? Not the masturbation part and the focus on himself and the power of the phalac etc. (bc I re read the Pluto H2 chapter in Pluto Vol 1. and saw that dynamic clearly) -- But the ASPECTS that show a bisexual tendency (Uranus?)? What ASPECTS show this and why? I just have no idea what aspects would give you the understanding of the bisexual part (other than Uranus, but what else..how do the other aspects play into it --both the stage of evolution and Venus?). And even more than that, what would be the souls intention for this bisexual-ness -- why would this be useful for this INDIVIDUAL identity from a soul perspective? Is the acknowledgement and honesty about it what the soul longs for or the actual acting out the tendency? You say that the stage of his individuation would mark this (if I understood that accurately) but even after reading the stages over I still cannot figure out how you came to this. Furthermore, I wonder if this man has any clue about his bisexuality at all or is it the next stage or even next life where he will get an actual hold of this ( in the next stage where this clue would emerge for him or in this one), --Thus I am stuck in going any further with the chart.
I did pick up that something about his work will be key, and I am trying to develop that, but I feel too stuck with the other thing to proceed? In otherwords, I think that until I am clearer about the sexuality thing I will not be able to intuit into the work thing bc of any subtle connection that may be inherent in that dynamic.
Another reason I cannot seem to go further is bc I a only aware of some of his aspects. Namely the ones you first gave us. I don't know if others more skilled in EA are able to place all the other aspects respectively based on the initial aspects you gave us -- I simply am not skilled enough in astrology or EA to figure all those respective placements/aspects (I just use the astro software for that based on birth data, u know?). All I can deduct from the initial info is house placement and ascendant (and even that may be a tiny bit off if this man has anything intercepted? I also am not even sure if I need to know any of them at this step of the chart analysis? Sorry that these questions are so basic.
Looking for your feedback.
Thank you
Dhyana
Quote from: Rad on Mar 03, 2010, 08:24 AM
Hi Ellen,
"I am wondering what this actually LOOKS like in a 1st stage individuated PROGRESSING towards (FULLY ALIENATED) 2nd stage. I have a hard time picturing how it plays out other than negatively...? Does one have to look at the chart as a blueprint of the Soul through ALL the stages, ie, so you understand the ultimate positive/constructive potential but, given the stage understand the more negative limitations of the current lifetime? Does this make sense? (Same ? with the rest of the post)."
****************************************************************************
First, we need to resist judging any given Soul's evolutionary process as negative or positive. It should simply be seen and understood as it naturally is, it's necessity, and the reasons for that necessity.
>Hi Rad,
Yes, and thanks. This is an ongoing difficulty and confusion on my part. Through Dhyana's posts and your responses (including to me below) I am understanding now in a way I hadn't that key to the Individuated State is the need for FEEDBACK from others. There is an evolutionary NEED to focus on self which necessitates this feedback. This is part of the learning process. The REBELLION of the Individuated State is not a necessary negative, but a necessary part of the evolutionary process. Yes? What I am trying to understand, and where my confusion comes in, is how does one make sense of, say, the Columbine shootings? I think I have a linkage in my mind between alienation and destructive rebellion. But you are saying that that is not necessarily the linkage, but COULD be....? In other words, one does not by necessity have to RAGE their way through the Individuated States?
Thanks,
Ellen
The way it 'looks like' in this paradigm is that the Soul will attract to itself key people who provide the 'feedback' by way of conversations that help this Soul unlock who he actually is, and why. These types of conversations will be born out through various kinds of conflict he will have with the intimate others in his life. The evolutionary stage of development simply correlates to where any given Soul is it's evolutionary journey relative to it's own realizations about it's individual nature, and it's relationship to that which has created it in the first place: The Source Of All Things.
Rad
Quote from: Rad on Mar 03, 2010, 08:43 AM
Hi Ellen,
"The core issue is symbolized in the Pluto/Uranus conjunction in the 2nd, squaring the 5th House S.Node in Scorpio: his sexuality is very intense yet is FOCUSED ON HIMSELF. This is a Soul who has been focused on the symbol of the penis, the phallus, as all powerful. A SOURCE OF CREATION: 5th House. Thus, a Soul who used himself, his own body as a vehicle of stability, self reliance, and developing a deep inner relationship to itself."
Hi Rad,
I'm wanting to check my understanding of the logic here. Is this because he has just emerged from the Consensus State, and thus has identified (his Soul has identified) with the patriarchy - with the power of it, and wanting it - which would reinforce this narcissistic orientation at the consensus level? And he would not even recognize the effects that this narcissism is having on others and on himself in a negative way...?
****************************************************************************
The logic is the astrological signature itself: the symbols we are using. It's because he is in the 1st Stage Individuated that has caused him to live an external life that appears 'normal' from consensus point of view, thus heterosexual because this is the consensus norm, yet within his Soul signature being a male orientated bisexual.
>OK. No problem. I get this.
The male orientation is determined because of the placement of the Nodes,
Here I'm lost. Is it because 5th house/Leo/Sun archetype is masculine?
and thus he perception of the power of the Phallus.
This makes sense to me in terms of Leo.
The narcissism in these symbols is determined because of his evolutionary state: a state of ongoing individuated self discovery.
And also because it is Leo in particular, yes?
Yes, he would be unaware of the effects of his narcissism on intimate others in his life. It is through the feedback of such partners that he would then become aware.
Rad
PS, Thanks so much for your positive feedback on my first effort...
Hi Rad,
Before I get started, I want to clarify a contradiction in your reference to planetary aspects. Once this is cleared, I'll post a chart with the appropriate aspects.
statement 1 (reply 384):
QuoteYes, Uranus and Pluto are sextile the S.Node, trine the North. The Uranus/Pluto conjunction is New. The Venus is inconjunct Uranus, and through extension, Pluto.
Rad
statement 2 (reply 400):
QuoteThe core issue is symbolized in the Pluto/Uranus conjunction in the 2nd, squaring the 5th House S.Node in Scorpio
Thank you.
Hi Dhyana,
Quote from: DhyanaDec2 on Mar 03, 2010, 11:01 AM
Hi Rad,
I am having trouble formulating anything beyond what I already have for this chart. I think there are a couple reasons for this (AND I am hoping you may pick up on any additional reason(s) I may be stuck, and relay it to me)?
The one reason is becuase I cannot understand how you came to the issue of his bisexuality? Not the masturbation part and the focus on himself and the power of the phalac etc. (bc I re read the Pluto H2 chapter in Pluto Vol 1. and saw that dynamic clearly) -- But the ASPECTS that show a bisexual tendency (Uranus?)? What ASPECTS show this and why? I just have no idea what aspects would give you the understanding of the bisexual part (other than Uranus, but what else..how do the other aspects play into it --both the stage of evolution and Venus?).
****************************************************************************
Beyond the Uranus conjunction to Pluto, which is the key, there are repeating signatures that correlate to his bisexuality. These symbols are N.Node in Taurus in the 11th House..i.e. a natural Uranus House, and that is ruled by Venus in Aquarius in the 7th, which then forms the inconjunct aspect to his Uranus and Pluto. The Venus of course is also squaring his S.Node in Scorpio, and that N.Node in the 11th. All of these symbols correlate, in the end, to his inner relationship to himself, and thus others. And, on a sexual level, that inner relationship, at it's core, is about the power of the phallus that then correlates to his natural bisexuality, and the intense masturbatory orientation within himself.
************************************************************************
And even more than that, what would be the souls intention for this bisexual-ness -- why would this be useful for this INDIVIDUAL identity from a soul perspective?
*************************************************************************
What would be the intention for any Soul being bi-sexual ? As in any possible dynamic within the total range of possibilities of being human there is always reasons for whatever dynamics a Soul is orientated too for it's self knowledge. For most who are naturally bi-sexual this correlates to the totality of self knowledge by experiencing the duality of gender within itself.
*************************************************************************
Is the acknowledgement and honesty about it what the soul longs for or the actual acting out the tendency?
************************************************************************
Both are true. And this is not a 'tendency': it is core dynamic within his Soul structure, identity.
***************************************************************************
You say that the stage of his individuation would mark this (if I understood that accurately) but even after reading the stages over I still cannot figure out how you came to this. Furthermore, I wonder if this man has any clue about his bisexuality at all or is it the next stage or even next life where he will get an actual hold of this ( in the next stage where this clue would emerge for him or in this one), --Thus I am stuck in going any further with the chart.
***************************************************************************
The 1st Stage individuation correlates to beginning to throw off all external conditioning that has nothing to do with who any Soul naturally is as created by God. The clue will come through the feedback that the he receives from other people, and most specifically his intimate other in a female form. This goes right back to one of the reasons that he is emotionally and sexually distant and withholding to such female partners. And that is because of his core bisexual orientation that desires men first. In his intimate relationships with women he will typically receive the message that they need more from him than he is able to give because of this core inner orientation. This will lead, again, to such intimate partners seeking out relationships with others in order to have their own core needs met. This of course will produce the necessary emotional/ psychological shocks to him that will manifest as confrontations with these partners. In the process of these confrontations, the reasons for them, the WHY of it, the awareness of his core sexual identity will occur. This will occur either in the form of inner realization because of the compression within the Soul, S.Node in Scorpio, Pluto/Uranus in the 2nd squaring that Node, the N.Node itself in Taurus, where that compression finally releases the awareness to him, or through the types of conversations with his partner that can also lead to this awareness.
****************************************************************************
I did pick up that something about his work will be key, and I am trying to develop that, but I feel too stuck with the other thing to proceed? In otherwords, I think that until I am clearer about the sexuality thing I will not be able to intuit into the work thing bc of any subtle connection that may be inherent in that dynamic.
***************************************************************************
There are many, many other dynamics and evolutionary issues in this paradigm to understand beyond the sexual one. You don't need to get stuck here because of this.
***************************************************************************
Another reason I cannot seem to go further is bc I a only aware of some of his aspects. Namely the ones you first gave us. I don't know if others more skilled in EA are able to place all the other aspects respectively based on the initial aspects you gave us -- I simply am not skilled enough in astrology or EA to figure all those respective placements/aspects (I just use the astro software for that based on birth data, u know?). All I can deduct from the initial info is house placement and ascendant (and even that may be a tiny bit off if this man has anything intercepted? I also am not even sure if I need to know any of them at this step of the chart analysis? Sorry that these questions are so basic.
****************************************************************************
You don't need to know anything else. We are simply analyzing the evolutionary dynamics in the paradigm that has been presented: and nothing more at this point.
****************************************************************************
Rad
Hi Ari,
Venus is squaring the Nodes, inconjunct Pluto/Urnaus, and the Pluto/Uranus is trining the N.Node, sextile the South.
Rad
Hi Ellen,
"The male orientation is determined because of the placement of the Nodes,
Here I'm lost. Is it because 5th house/Leo/Sun archetype is masculine?"
***************************************************************************
Yes, as that S.Node in Scorpio in the 5th House, a natural Leo House, is ruled by his Pluto in the 2nd House .. the power of the phallus in combination that then connects to Urnaus and his bisexuality linked with the power of the phallus in other men. The inconjunct to Venus in Aquarius in the 7th, which is squaring his Nodes, correlates with his need to have relationships with both men and women.
***************************************************************************
"and thus he perception of the power of the Phallus.
This makes sense to me in terms of Leo.
The narcissism in these symbols is determined because of his evolutionary state: a state of ongoing individuated self discovery.
And also because it is Leo in particular, yes?"
**********************************************************************
yes ...............................
***********************************************************************
Rad
Hi Rad (or anyone who would like to respond who can answer my question),
I'm bringing forward a question from the previous page that was missed. I ask it because it is an area of genuine confusion for me and I would truly appreciate clarification.
Ellen
****************************************************************************
First, we need to resist judging any given Soul's evolutionary process as negative or positive. It should simply be seen and understood as it naturally is, it's necessity, and the reasons for that necessity.
****************************************************************************
>Hi Rad,
Yes, and thanks. This is an ongoing difficulty and confusion on my part. Through Dhyana's posts and your responses (including to me below) I am understanding now in a way I hadn't that key to the Individuated State is the need for FEEDBACK from others. There is an evolutionary NEED to focus on self which necessitates this feedback. This is part of the learning process. The REBELLION of the Individuated State is not a necessary negative, but a necessary part of the evolutionary process. Yes?
What I am trying to understand, and where my confusion comes in, is how does one make sense of, say, the Columbine shootings? I think I have a linkage in my mind between alienation and destructive rebellion. But you are saying that that is not necessarily the linkage, but COULD be....? In other words, one does not by necessity have to RAGE their way through the Individuated States?
Thanks,
Ellen[/quote]
[/quote]
Wow Ellen, great post! Your questions are so well said and really helpful in clarifying things for me too!
Dhyana
Hi Ellen,
"Yes, and thanks. This is an ongoing difficulty and confusion on my part. Through Dhyana's posts and your responses (including to me below) I am understanding now in a way I hadn't that key to the Individuated State is the need for FEEDBACK from others. There is an evolutionary NEED to focus on self which necessitates this feedback. This is part of the learning process. The REBELLION of the Individuated State is not a necessary negative, but a necessary part of the evolutionary process. Yes? "
*****************************************************************************
The individuated state, of itself, does not NEED feedback from others in order to individuate on an ongoing basis. It is entirely possible for a Soul to begin the individuation process from within itself. On the other hand, some Souls can design lifetimes that do correlate with the need for such external feedback as in the paradigm that we are currently working with.
Yes, rebellion generated by alienation is a hallmark, an archetype, that is the underpinning of the Individuated State. However, that rebellion does not need to be a destructive rebellion by any means.
**************************************************************************
What I am trying to understand, and where my confusion comes in, is how does one make sense of, say, the Columbine shootings? I think I have a linkage in my mind between alienation and destructive rebellion. But you are saying that that is not necessarily the linkage, but COULD be....? In other words, one does not by necessity have to RAGE their way through the Individuated States?
***************************************************************************
No, in fact, the vast majority moving through the Individuated States do not rage their way through it. For questions like the Columbine shootings: this sort of thing belongs in other threads, like the one underway concerning the Evolutionary States that Steve is answering extremely well. This thread is for practice charts, and I would like to keep it that way.
*************************************************************************
Rad
(http://i417.photobucket.com/albums/pp255/arimoshe/CanadianBrother-3.jpg)
Pluto Uranus new phase conjunction in Virgo in the second house
South node in Scorpio in the 5th
Venus squaring the nodes in Aquarius in the 7th.
Pluto Uranus trine north node.
Canadian, upper middle class, male- end of first stage individuated
Prior to this life, this soul's underlying desire that has motivated past incarnations has been to develop his core inner relationship to himself. He has done so by focusing on the ways in which he can improve and develop himself in such a way that would lead to deeper more conscious capacity for self reliance (Pluto in Virgo in the second house).
The south node being in Scorpio in the 5th house, that ruler being Pluto in Virgo in the second- implies that he has developed a self image of himself as "powerful" which how he found profound meaning and self sufficiency from within. Therefore he has naturally inhabited service type roles that focus on his power through the vehicle of his sexuality (south node in scorpio in the 5th, ruled by Pluto in Virgo in the 5th).
This soul has sought to liberate from external conditions that prevent from a direct experience of his inner core. Therefore, it has created traumatic experiences for itself through which it was faced with it's sense of lack when it comes to being sexually powerful, being powerful in and of himself, being self sufficient, and having something valuable to offer others in relationship. The nature of there events has catalyzed an inner, deeply internalized insecurity that he is not good enough- this then leading to a pattern of over compensation through which he needs to PROVE to himself and thus others his own worth. This being done through developing a self image as powerful. All this implied by The Pluto Uranus conjunction, Pluto as ruler of the south node, and Venus inconjunct Uranus.
This soul has become so immensely self focused that he has succeeded in excluding a objective awareness of who other people are, and what they need (Venus in Aquarius in 7th) from his feild of vision (5th house). He has naturally had relationships with others- in particular those who are not at all like him (north node in the 11th house, ruled by venus in aquarius in the 7th squaring the nodes) who in virtue of them being different, brought up an unbearable feeling of lack for this soul. Relative to this soul's evolutionary stage, these relationships would have been with others, presumably women (the ultimate "other") with whom he didn't have the tools and the inner capacity to truly care for, care about, and listen to these other human beings. But rather internalized all responses as an indication of how special he is. This has lead to experiences of abandonment and loss of his relationships and honor from others.
At this evolutionary state, he is facing his actual nature- and the social consequences of his nature. The dynamics of this chart indicate that he would have experienced oppression based on his sexuality, his sexual nature. And so, in addition to the above mentioned relationship patterns- an even deeper cause would have been persecution and attack from partners who were at a lower evolutionary state. This persecution based on him wanting to explore a more authentic expression and way of intimacy with others- and the other not being ok with that. In the end, his partners projected a reality upon this soul that wasn't true- and in the end failed to see him for who he was. In the end, he experienced himself as a victim to other people's regressive thinking. This manifested itself via actual shock- actual trauma and excommunication from his social spheres (All the Aquarius). This also created situations in which he has been very sexually repressed because of partners that didn't want to explore sexuality in the way that he did (venus in Aquarius 7th inconjunct pluto Uranus in second in Virgo).
All this as a result has alienated him further- pushing him more deeply into the individuated state.
In this life time, in order for evolution to proceed he has to deal with the patterns that he has created as a result of feeling alienated. This means this lifetime is all about dealing with the confusing confrontations (inconjunct) that occur between himself and others- especially when it comes to how he shares himself with others. Same sex relationships would be a natural gravitation for this soul on account of other men being a symbol of himself. Thus, I can see what your saying about the penis as a symbol of power. He has retreated (second house) deeply within himself as a means to validate and inflate his sense of purpose and power (scoprio in the 5th).
He may have chosen work through which he can be (covertly- as his actual nature is not yet in the open) asserting and experiencing his power. This may be a male dominimatrix type of thing, or a stripper, a sexual performer- or a person that enacts traumatic experiences for other people who want it, in order to give them what they want (re-creation of trauma) and provide a feeling of power for himself all the while recreating scenes of sexual trauma and rejection. This could be slapping someone else around, providing pain to others etc"¦ This is indicated by the second house planets and the aspects to it being in Virgo.
In the realm of personal relationships- it is utterly imperative that this soul learns how to stop internalized everything that comes from their partner. He is very paranoid of being ignored and betrayed by his partners. Engaging in relationships through which he can be seen, and in so doing also seeing his partner is key. This means developing intimacy with others (most likely men) who have also felt alienated from other people and don't feel seen for who they are. Together, they can honor each other and explore their sexuality as a means to gradually cultivate intimacy.
There is always a potential for either partner to become over concerned with them self, and in effect rehash paranoia and distrust. Also, patterns of manipulation through which affection is given and withheld depending on the emotional reality currently in place. This soul may easily retract his love, and close his heart when he feels that he is not being honored and seen by his partner. He may detach and become disinterested- retreating back into himself via his own capacity for self pleasure, and the satisfaction he gets via whatever work he does (as described above), or he may become overtly manipulative by picking on the weak points of his partner, degrading their sense of self worth all as a means to re-establish love for himself.
Evolution for this soul happens as he progressively begins to realize the nature of his patterns- and how they result in a stagnate retreat into himself. He can cultivate a willingness to objectively listen to others, and give according to what they need, as he begins to realize that he in fact IS powerful and can actually do meaningful work because of his power. This is indicated by Venus squaring the nodes- integrated through the south node which is ruled by Pluto in Virgo in the second house. His work, which is sexual and powerful in nature, will naturally involve creating relationships with others (Venus inconjunct Pluto Uranus).
His work ultimately serves as a gateway for him to let go of himself and actually listen to what other people want on account of realizing that he has everything that he needs within, and is therefore capable of giving of him self according to what others want (resolving Venus via the south node and it's ruler).
This leads to more conscious relationships with others who are at the same or close evolutionary stage. Together with others, he can learn how to listen to and authentically support one another, and increasingly find that there is community and other people out there that are just like him.
This soul then develops an image of himself as being a valuable member of social change and evolution on this planet (taurus nn in 11th) through the equal, authentic relationships he is creating (Venus Aquarius in 7th), and the empowerment and healing he experiences through those relationships. PPP is then enacted as the ability to let go of him self and merging with others (Pisces in the 8th). This fulfills the evolutionary intentions of this life as it implies that he no longer needs to prove and constantly work to assert his self worth/power.
Father and Children.
IF this soul has children (I can easily see that he wouldn't on account of children initially being viewed as a distraction from himself- and beings that will dethrone him so to speak), then his relationship with them would be an opportunity to learn how to let go of himself. His children too would naturally be seeking to establish a sense of inner empowerment and feelings of specialness. His role would ultimately to encourage authentic self-exploration and constant encouragement for the worth and value of his children. Otherwise, his children could grow up deeply resentful of their father.
Based on unresolved sexual trauma- oriented around his sense of specialness, there may have been some sexual abuse early in this life. His father may have been a very powerful and manipulative soul. One who was emotionally unavailable, and manipulated his child as a means to gain a sense of inner empowerment. Rebelling from the trauma of his father would be a very important part of this soul's journey.
All I really can say is that, if I was giving this soul a reading, I'd come into it knowing that father was very important. I'd want to hear about who his father was, what his father's sexual behavior was like, and if there was any abuse. I would check in to see how aware this soul is of how similar he is to his own father. I would help him see that in essence he is liberating from his own dissociation, unavailability, narcissism, paranoia etc"¦
Question: Can you help me go deeper into the nature of the inconjunct- especially as it relates to prior life trauma (inconjunct south node ruler and Uranus), and a current life strategy (ruler of nn)?
I don't feel I fully grasp the underlying nature of the inconjunct.
Thank you for guiding me Rad.
Ari,
Quote from: ari moshe on Mar 06, 2010, 10:21 PM
Pluto Uranus new phase conjunction in Virgo in the second house
South node in Scorpio in the 5th
Venus squaring the nodes in Aquarius in the 7th.
Pluto Uranus trine north node.
Canadian, upper middle class, male- end of first stage individuated
Prior to this life, this soul's underlying desire that has motivated past incarnations has been to develop his core inner relationship to himself. He has done so by focusing on the ways in which he can improve and develop himself in such a way that would lead to deeper more conscious capacity for self reliance (Pluto in Virgo in the second house).
The south node being in Scorpio in the 5th house, that ruler being Pluto in Virgo in the second- implies that he has developed a self image of himself as "powerful" which how he found profound meaning and self sufficiency from within. Therefore he has naturally inhabited service type roles that focus on his power through the vehicle of his sexuality (south node in scorpio in the 5th, ruled by Pluto in Virgo in the 5th).
***************************************************************************
He has naturally gravitated to any role that correlated with his survival needs, or the needs of those that he has loved and held dear. This would have also included groupings of people living together in community: N.Node in the 11th, ruler Venus in Aquarius in the 7th, inconjuncting his Pluto/Uranus in Virgo in the 2nd. With the S.Node in Scorpio in the 5th he would have had roles of leadership in such communities and would have felt the deep inner need to help the communities sustain themselves, to survive by whatever means available. He would have fought to his own death in defense of these communities, and those that he loved.
The very nature of these symbols, on a personal level, correlate to a deeply private and emotionally withheld individual. Who he has been in the performance of his roles on behalf of others is very different that who he has been in his private life, his personal space. The very last thing this individual would have done is to use his sexuality in any kind of role linked to his or others survival needs. His sexuality is a very private and secretive thing for him in terms of others knowing about it.
*************************************************************************
This soul has sought to liberate from external conditions that prevent from a direct experience of his inner core. Therefore, it has created traumatic experiences for itself through which it was faced with it's sense of lack when it comes to being sexually powerful, being powerful in and of himself, being self sufficient, and having something valuable to offer others in relationship. The nature of there events has catalyzed an inner, deeply internalized insecurity that he is not good enough- this then leading to a pattern of over compensation through which he needs to PROVE to himself and thus others his own worth. This being done through developing a self image as powerful. All this implied by The Pluto Uranus conjunction, Pluto as ruler of the south node, and Venus inconjunct Uranus.
This soul has become so immensely self focused that he has succeeded in excluding a objective awareness of who other people are, and what they need (Venus in Aquarius in 7th) from his feild of vision (5th house). He has naturally had relationships with others- in particular those who are not at all like him (north node in the 11th house, ruled by venus in aquarius in the 7th squaring the nodes) who in virtue of them being different, brought up an unbearable feeling of lack for this soul. Relative to this soul's evolutionary stage, these relationships would have been with others, presumably women (the ultimate "other") with whom he didn't have the tools and the inner capacity to truly care for, care about, and listen to these other human beings. But rather internalized all responses as an indication of how special he is. This has lead to experiences of abandonment and loss of his relationships and honor from others.
At this evolutionary state, he is facing his actual nature- and the social consequences of his nature. The dynamics of this chart indicate that he would have experienced oppression based on his sexuality, his sexual nature.
And so, in addition to the above mentioned relationship patterns- an even deeper cause would have been persecution and attack from partners who were at a lower evolutionary state. This persecution based on him wanting to explore a more authentic expression and way of intimacy with others- and the other not being ok with that. In the end, his partners projected a reality upon this soul that wasn't true- and in the end failed to see him for who he was. In the end, he experienced himself as a victim to other people's regressive thinking. This manifested itself via actual shock- actual trauma and excommunication from his social spheres (All the Aquarius). This also created situations in which he has been very sexually repressed because of partners that didn't want to explore sexuality in the way that he did (venus in Aquarius 7th inconjunct pluto Uranus in second in Virgo).
All this as a result has alienated him further- pushing him more deeply into the individuated state.
In this life time, in order for evolution to proceed he has to deal with the patterns that he has created as a result of feeling alienated. This means this lifetime is all about dealing with the confusing confrontations (inconjunct) that occur between himself and others- especially when it comes to how he shares himself with others. Same sex relationships would be a natural gravitation for this soul on account of other men being a symbol of himself. Thus, I can see what your saying about the penis as a symbol of power. He has retreated (second house) deeply within himself as a means to validate and inflate his sense of purpose and power (scoprio in the 5th).
He may have chosen work through which he can be (covertly- as his actual nature is not yet in the open) asserting and experiencing his power. This may be a male dominimatrix type of thing, or a stripper, a sexual performer- or a person that enacts traumatic experiences for other people who want it, in order to give them what they want (re-creation of trauma) and provide a feeling of power for himself all the while recreating scenes of sexual trauma and rejection. This could be slapping someone else around, providing pain to others etc"¦ This is indicated by the second house planets and the aspects to it being in Virgo.
*****************************************************************************
No. Again, this would be the very last thing this Soul would do because he is a VERY DEEPLY PRIVATE PERSON. And, as a result, he would choose extremely carefully with whom he would share ANYTHING about himself, let alone his sexuality.
*************************************************************************
In the realm of personal relationships- it is utterly imperative that this soul learns how to stop internalized everything that comes from their partner. He is very paranoid of being ignored and betrayed by his partners. Engaging in relationships through which he can be seen, and in so doing also seeing his partner is key. This means developing intimacy with others (most likely men) who have also felt alienated from other people and don't feel seen for who they are. Together, they can honor each other and explore their sexuality as a means to gradually cultivate intimacy.
*************************************************************************
He needs, as an ongoing evolutionary lesson, to discriminate relative to the 'feedback' from others about who he is, and what his internal emotional psychology is about: Venus inconjunct his Pluto/Uranus, relative to it's squares to his N.S.Nodes. For those who do know who he actually is, and gives him the appropriate feedback about himself via meaningful dialogs and discussions , then he needs to learn how to take this in because such dialogs and feedback serve to help him actualize himself. The Venus in Aquarius, relative to its square to the N.Node, Venus being in the 7th, has in fact correlated to other lives, and this one, in which key people have and will show up in his life for this very purpose. And these will be Souls who are actually more evolved than himself, or, at minimum, at exactly the same evolutionary gate that he is.
Conversely, this necessary discrimination needs to weed out and rebel against any false evaluations and judgments about himself that are emanating from those who are lesser evolved: in the consensus.
***************************************************************************
There is always a potential for either partner to become over concerned with them self, and in effect rehash paranoia and distrust. Also, patterns of manipulation through which affection is given and withheld depending on the emotional reality currently in place. This soul may easily retract his love, and close his heart when he feels that he is not being honored and seen by his partner. He may detach and become disinterested- retreating back into himself via his own capacity for self pleasure, and the satisfaction he gets via whatever work he does (as described above), or he may become overtly manipulative by picking on the weak points of his partner, degrading their sense of self worth all as a means to re-establish love for himself.
****************************************************************************
Excellent, minus the work part for the reasons above.
**************************************************************************
Evolution for this soul happens as he progressively begins to realize the nature of his patterns- and how they result in a stagnate retreat into himself. He can cultivate a willingness to objectively listen to others, and give according to what they need, as he begins to realize that he in fact IS powerful and can actually do meaningful work because of his power. This is indicated by Venus squaring the nodes- integrated through the south node which is ruled by Pluto in Virgo in the second house. His work, which is sexual and powerful in nature, will naturally involve creating relationships with others (Venus inconjunct Pluto Uranus).
****************************************************************************
Yes, but again his 'work' is not of a sexual nature. What we have here is a Soul that needs to deepen itself in the types of work that it does in order to refect his evolutionary capacities, and his need to be of service to others in a meaningful way. Not just working to work, but meaningful work that symbolizes who is deeply is. This is a Soul who has been asking why for a very long time, a Soul that does have a natural psychological knowledge that has been gained through the hard knocks of life itself: S.Node in Scorpio relative to Pluto/Uranus conjunction, the inconjuction back to Venus is Aquarius. N.Node in Taurus in the 11th. All of these symbols correlate to traumas in all kinds of ways. It is the nature of these traumas that has caused him to ask why. So the real transition here, the evolutionary challenge, his next step, is to actualize a work of a psychological nature in which he can actively help others in this way. This, in turn, would create a dynamic in which is would be forced to listen to all the different realities of such people. In turn, this would cause him to seek out solutions for others that reflect their individual realities instead of giving to others what he thinks then need from the compressed well of his 2nd House Pluto/Uranus.
**************************************************************************
His work ultimately serves as a gateway for him to let go of himself and actually listen to what other people want on account of realizing that he has everything that he needs within, and is therefore capable of giving of him self according to what others want (resolving Venus via the south node and it's ruler).
This leads to more conscious relationships with others who are at the same or close evolutionary stage. Together with others, he can learn how to listen to and authentically support one another, and increasingly find that there is community and other people out there that are just like him.
This soul then develops an image of himself as being a valuable member of social change and evolution on this planet (taurus nn in 11th) through the equal, authentic relationships he is creating (Venus Aquarius in 7th), and the empowerment and healing he experiences through those relationships. PPP is then enacted as the ability to let go of him self and merging with others (Pisces in the 8th). This fulfills the evolutionary intentions of this life as it implies that he no longer needs to prove and constantly work to assert his self worth/power.
************************************************************************
Excellent
**************************************************************************
Father and Children.
IF this soul has children (I can easily see that he wouldn't on account of children initially being viewed as a distraction from himself- and beings that will dethrone him so to speak), then his relationship with them would be an opportunity to learn how to let go of himself. His children too would naturally be seeking to establish a sense of inner empowerment and feelings of specialness. His role would ultimately to encourage authentic self-exploration and constant encouragement for the worth and value of his children. Otherwise, his children could grow up deeply resentful of their father.
Based on unresolved sexual trauma- oriented around his sense of specialness, there may have been some sexual abuse early in this life. His father may have been a very powerful and manipulative soul. One who was emotionally unavailable, and manipulated his child as a means to gain a sense of inner empowerment. Rebelling from the trauma of his father would be a very important part of this soul's journey.
****************************************************************************
No, not at all. The Father would have treated him, and his other offspring, very specially and loved them to death. The actual issue is the evolutionary condition of the father which in below, consensus, where this Soul is at. And, therefore, not a father who could give him the actual feedback that he needed in order to evolve in the ways that he needs. This is intentional on the part of this Soul because this Soul, in the end, where learn about the nature of his individuality by WHAT HE IS NOT. Thus setting up realities of contrast and comparison through which he can learn about his individuality in this way.
****************************************************************************
All I really can say is that, if I was giving this soul a reading, I'd come into it knowing that father was very important. I'd want to hear about who his father was, what his father's sexual behavior was like, and if there was any abuse. I would check in to see how aware this soul is of how similar he is to his own father. I would help him see that in essence he is liberating from his own dissociation, unavailability, narcissism, paranoia etc"¦
****************************************************************************
There would be no abuse by his father. The father, again, is just at another level of evolution. The father loved his for alls he is worth and would, indeed, support any life decisions this Soul made for itself, whether he understood those decisions or not. And, because of this, this Soul would make every effort to understand the individuality of his own children, and try, as best he could, to give them exactly what they needed.
***************************************************************************
Question: Can you help me go deeper into the nature of the inconjunct- especially as it relates to prior life trauma (inconjunct south node ruler and Uranus), and a current life strategy (ruler of nn)?
****************************************************************************
Try to work with this more yourself given what I have written today in response to your analysis. And when you do work with the archetypes of this inconjunction: adjustments that need to be made that are born of crisis.
I don't feel I fully grasp the underlying nature of the inconjunct.
Thank you for guiding me Rad.
Ari. You are doing good work. Just keep going and allow yourself to learn by way of the feedback given.
Rad
Hi Rad, thanks for your really helpful feedback. I've re-approached some aspects of the interpretation according to your feedback.
QuoteHe has naturally gravitated to any role that correlated with his survival needs, or the needs of those that he has loved and held dear. This would have also included groupings of people living together in community: N.Node in the 11th, ruler Venus in Aquarius in the 7th, inconjuncting his Pluto/Uranus in Virgo in the 2nd. With the S.Node in Scorpio in the 5th he would have had roles of leadership in such communities and would have felt the deep inner need to help the communities sustain themselves, to survive by whatever means available. He would have fought to his own death in defense of these communities, and those that he loved.
Got it. The south node in Scorpio in the 5th correlates to a past in which he has self actualized by way of penetrating to the core of a special purpose. Pluto in Virgo in second as ruler of the sn, and sextile the south node means this special purpose was enacted and qualified by improving his capacity to survive/find his inner resourcefulness. Just that alone indicates that this special purpose was enacted from WITHIN the soul's innate ability to perform and achieve what it knows it was here to do.
Pluto in Virgo correlates to the psychological experience of lack, when it comes to not feeling oneself to be good enough to do the work one is meant to do. With the sextile to the south node, the awareness of this is clearly indicated- and the capacity to self actualize via a devotion and dedication to his work is indicated as well. We see that it has been important for this soul to be self sufficient and self reliant in order to do the best that he can possibly do. This ultimately impacting on his image (sn), and the adoration/respect he gains from other people (in scorio in the 5th).
What was the nature of his sense of special purpose, and for whom/what was this purpose?Pluto is conjunct Uranus indicating he this soul has recently (new phase?) established core values that embrace the ideal of sharing and community. Personal survival for this soul is linked to community, to living in a way that works better for everyone. At this evolutionary state this soul has attracted traumatic experiences that relate to the loss of his community and the way they lived together etc. This has had the intended effect of pushing him into a more radicalized state of conscious rebellion from the status quo (cusp of second stage individuated).
Venus squares the nodes, having last formed a conjunction to the south node. This Venus is the ruler of the nn in Taurus in the 11th and is also inconjunct the Pluto Uranus conjunction. So venus very very much reveals the nature of the role this soul has served, how it was played, and what happened. Venus correlates to his inner relationship to himself, and from that the kinds of relationship dynamics he has attracted to himself. Venus in Aquarius in the 7th house means his soul has sought to hear itself through cultivating an objective consciousness, such that it can objectively internalize the feedback (7th house) it gets from others and liberate from ways of relating to himself and others that come from conditioned patterns, which itself is symbolic of repressed trauma. This means developing a core values that is about individuality- thus implying a psychology that includes and encourages other people's innate uniqueness.
First, I will explore the Venus inconjunction to Uranus and Pluto, then the square, then synthesize it all together.
Venus in Aquarius in the 7th inconjunct Pluto Uranus in Virgo in the second: There have been points of conflict and crisis between other people (venus in the 7th house- in particular the needs of his community, or groups of people he was associated with- aquarius, venus ruler of nn in 11th house) and his own need to do everything BY HIMSELF (because he feared it wouldn't get done otherwise- Virgo?)- thus his tendency for isolation and a deep withdraw into his own work (Virgo in the second house). Involving Pluto and Uranus here means the inconjunct intended to get him to BUDGE, and become aware of his obsession (pluto) for taking on the burden (virgo) of being the provider (second house) as well as his insistence on his own personal vision of how resources can be shared and used in a more evolved way (Uranus). The need to listen to the needs and visions of other people, as well as the need for him to feel heard by other people, has required him to adjust (inconjunct) to the subjective reality of other people by actually recognizing that he tends to overstep other people's needs by imposing his personal desire to be do everything himself (Virgo second inconjunct Aquarius 7th) the way he sees fit.
Venus square to the nodes: this implies that he over internalized the feedback he got from others as it related to how special, needed, and appreciated he was by his community (distorted venus in aquarius in 7th, as ruler of nn in 11th, through the lens of the square to sn in Scorpio int he 5th). Perhaps this hasn't lead to excommunication, but rather he himself has gotten frustrated and disempowered by how unseen and misunderstood he felt by other people- via the projections of other people. The problem however was that HE was also blind to the fact that he wasn't willing to adjust to other people's reality (the inconjunct). And so he became increasingly paranoid and distrustful of other people the more unlike himself they were. Therefore, this soul has attracted traumatic experiences of loosing partners, friends, and community in order to create an inner turmoil that would make him radically re-evaluate his relationship to relationships. This setting the stage for the current life venus square nodes- with a north node in the 11th house (lesson in thinking not only about himself).
In general, the square to the nodes, as well as the inconjunct would have lead to a deeply withdrawn pattern of doing everything himself and glorifying his own abilities to serve a special purpose for others. It seems the projections from others, as well as the violent loss of community has had the intended effect to make him re-evaluate what makes him special (integration of square through the sn)- in order to ultimately enter community with a more secure self esteem- thus enabling the capacity for intimacy, actual objectivity, reflective relationships and thus the ppp.
So now I see why you say he will get key support from those that are at a higher evolutionary state that will provide reflection to him about who he is. This is indicated by the Venus in Aquarius int he 7th squaring the sn in scorpio in the 5th. Objective feedback from others. Only those at a higher, at at least his current evolutionary state, are capable of doing that for him- as any other evolutionary state would not have the awareness to recognize his own psychology, what makes him who he is, And in fact, with the square to the sn, he is deeply needing to understand what actually makes him special. These people will actually help him see the hidden psychological dynamics at play in relationships, the way he projects a reality of not being loved and appreciated, and the way he pushes others away that do not comply with his own sense of duty and responsibility.
So clearly he has been involved in communities, or with groups of people in past lives, and has been learning how to appropriately share himself with others in a way that allows the space for others to be who they are- i.e. actually listening to the needs of others.
I also see now, that as a destiny, his service in this life is linked to assisting others grow beyond the limitations of their own inner fear and isolation. He can help others who are at a similar evolutionary junction to validate their unique nature and enter into relationships in a more authentic and balanced way.
QuoteThe very nature of these symbols, on a personal level, correlate to a deeply private and emotionally withheld individual. Who he has been in the performance of his roles on behalf of others is very different that who he has been in his private life, his personal space. The very last thing this individual would have done is to use his sexuality in any kind of role linked to his or others survival needs. His sexuality is a very private and secretive thing for him in terms of others knowing about it.
So one thing I still don't grasp, is what kind of roles did he play out? Meaning how would this have looked in past lives- how did he support himself, and thus in his social sphere?
QuoteThe Venus in Aquarius, relative to its square to the N.Node, Venus being in the 7th, has in fact correlated to other lives, and this one, in which key people have and will show up in his life for this very purpose. And these will be Souls who are actually more evolved than himself, or, at minimum, at exactly the same evolutionary gate that he is.
The only question I have about that, is how to do come to the conclusion that this correlates to OTHER LIVES, not just this one? Is it because the square implies that the lesson has been there before this life, however the soul has been resistant to it?
QuoteConversely, this necessary discrimination needs to weed out and rebel against any false evaluations and judgments about himself that are emanating from those who are lesser evolved: in the consensus
.
Got it, and both kinds of feedback- the kind he has to weed out, and the kind that actually provides objective perspective will be the catalyst.
QuoteNo, not at all. The Father would have treated him, and his other offspring, very specially and loved them to death. The actual issue is the evolutionary condition of the father which in below, consensus, where this Soul is at. And, therefore, not a father who could give him the actual feedback that he needed in order to evolve in the ways that he needs. This is intentional on the part of this Soul because this Soul, in the end, where learn about the nature of his individuality by WHAT HE IS NOT. Thus setting up realities of contrast and comparison through which he can learn about his individuality in this way.
There would be no abuse by his father. The father, again, is just at another level of evolution. The father loved his for alls he is worth and would, indeed, support any life decisions this Soul made for itself, whether he understood those decisions or not. And, because of this, this Soul would make every effort to understand the individuality of his own children, and try, as best he could, to give them exactly what they needed.
Question about father:
Do you say that his father is encouraging and supportive because the south node is in Scorpio in the 5th house sextile it's ruler?
It seems that the square of Venus to the south node is what indicates to you that the father would have been in a lower evolutionary state- thus implying the lack of the kind of feedback the soul needed.
Why can't we say that the father was in a higher evolutionary state, and there is a set up ultimately for the soul to receive the guidance and objective feedback of his father? Is that because such a case wouldn't set up the natural crisis as implied by the venus square?
If so, can we then say that this soul would have needed to rebel about his father, even though his father loved him, on account of not actually being understood, in order to weed out any false projections? Later in life, through the cultivation of more self awareness, this soul would be able to re-appreciate his father's love for him?
Thank you.
Hi Ari,
Quote from: ari moshe on Mar 08, 2010, 01:36 PM
Hi Rad, thanks for your really helpful feedback. I've re-approached some aspects of the interpretation according to your feedback.
QuoteHe has naturally gravitated to any role that correlated with his survival needs, or the needs of those that he has loved and held dear. This would have also included groupings of people living together in community: N.Node in the 11th, ruler Venus in Aquarius in the 7th, inconjuncting his Pluto/Uranus in Virgo in the 2nd. With the S.Node in Scorpio in the 5th he would have had roles of leadership in such communities and would have felt the deep inner need to help the communities sustain themselves, to survive by whatever means available. He would have fought to his own death in defense of these communities, and those that he loved.
Got it. The south node in Scorpio in the 5th correlates to a past in which he has self actualized by way of penetrating to the core of a special purpose. Pluto in Virgo in second as ruler of the sn, and sextile the south node means this special purpose was enacted and qualified by improving his capacity to survive/find his inner resourcefulness. Just that alone indicates that this special purpose was enacted from WITHIN the soul's innate ability to perform and achieve what it knows it was here to do.
Pluto in Virgo correlates to the psychological experience of lack, when it comes to not feeling oneself to be good enough to do the work one is meant to do. With the sextile to the south node, the awareness of this is clearly indicated- and the capacity to self actualize via a devotion and dedication to his work is indicated as well. We see that it has been important for this soul to be self sufficient and self reliant in order to do the best that he can possibly do. This ultimately impacting on his image (sn), and the adoration/respect he gains from other people (in scorio in the 5th).
What was the nature of his sense of special purpose, and for whom/what was this purpose?
Pluto is conjunct Uranus indicating he this soul has recently (new phase?)
Yes, new phase ..........
established core values that embrace the ideal of sharing and community. Personal survival for this soul is linked to community, to living in a way that works better for everyone. At this evolutionary state this soul has attracted traumatic experiences that relate to the loss of his community and the way they lived together etc. This has had the intended effect of pushing him into a more radicalized state of conscious rebellion from the status quo (cusp of second stage individuated).
Venus squares the nodes, having last formed a conjunction to the south node. This Venus is the ruler of the nn in Taurus in the 11th and is also inconjunct the Pluto Uranus conjunction. So venus very very much reveals the nature of the role this soul has served, how it was played, and what happened. Venus correlates to his inner relationship to himself, and from that the kinds of relationship dynamics he has attracted to himself. Venus in Aquarius in the 7th house means his soul has sought to hear itself through cultivating an objective consciousness, such that it can objectively internalize the feedback (7th house) it gets from others and liberate from ways of relating to himself and others that come from conditioned patterns, which itself is symbolic of repressed trauma. This means developing a core values that is about individuality- thus implying a psychology that includes and encourages other people's innate uniqueness.
First, I will explore the Venus inconjunction to Uranus and Pluto, then the square, then synthesize it all together.
Venus in Aquarius in the 7th inconjunct Pluto Uranus in Virgo in the second: There have been points of conflict and crisis between other people (venus in the 7th house- in particular the needs of his community, or groups of people he was associated with- aquarius, venus ruler of nn in 11th house) and his own need to do everything BY HIMSELF (because he feared it wouldn't get done otherwise- Virgo?)- thus his tendency for isolation and a deep withdraw into his own work (Virgo in the second house).
This is true, but also because he considered within himself that he could always do whatever needed to done BETTER than anyone else. Thus, the ongoing lessons of letting others do whatever they need to do, for themselves, as well as within the context of their own lives and the larger functions of the groups needs, as best they can even if it not 'perfect' according to him. Ongoing lessons of learning how to others realities exist for them, and instead of being critical of them from the vantage point of his own reality, to work with others realities as they exist for them, and then to help them improve in whatever ways from within those realities. This will then create an attitude within others of wanting to work with him, versus him creating defensive reactions in others by criticizing them from limited well of just his own reality.
Involving Pluto and Uranus here means the inconjunct intended to get him to BUDGE, and become aware of his obsession (pluto) for taking on the burden (virgo) of being the provider (second house) as well as his insistence on his own personal vision of how resources can be shared and used in a more evolved way (Uranus). The need to listen to the needs and visions of other people, as well as the need for him to feel heard by other people, has required him to adjust (inconjunct) to the subjective reality of other people by actually recognizing that he tends to overstep other people's needs by imposing his personal desire to be do everything himself (Virgo second inconjunct Aquarius 7th) the way he sees fit.
Excellent
Venus square to the nodes: this implies that he over internalized the feedback he got from others as it related to how special, needed, and appreciated he was by his community (distorted venus in aquarius in 7th, as ruler of nn in 11th, through the lens of the square to sn in Scorpio int he 5th). Perhaps this hasn't lead to excommunication, but rather he himself has gotten frustrated and disempowered by how unseen and misunderstood he felt by other people- via the projections of other people. The problem however was that HE was also blind to the fact that he wasn't willing to adjust to other people's reality (the inconjunct). And so he became increasingly paranoid and distrustful of other people the more unlike himself they were. Therefore, this soul has attracted traumatic experiences of loosing partners, friends, and community in order to create an inner turmoil that would make him radically re-evaluate his relationship to relationships. This setting the stage for the current life venus square nodes- with a north node in the 11th house (lesson in thinking not only about himself).
Excellent
In general, the square to the nodes, as well as the inconjunct would have lead to a deeply withdrawn pattern of doing everything himself and glorifying his own abilities to serve a special purpose for others. It seems the projections from others, as well as the violent loss of community has had the intended effect to make him re-evaluate what makes him special (integration of square through the sn)- in order to ultimately enter community with a more secure self esteem- thus enabling the capacity for intimacy, actual objectivity, reflective relationships and thus the ppp.
Excellent
So now I see why you say he will get key support from those that are at a higher evolutionary state that will provide reflection to him about who he is. This is indicated by the Venus in Aquarius int he 7th squaring the sn in scorpio in the 5th. Objective feedback from others. Only those at a higher, at at least his current evolutionary state, are capable of doing that for him- as any other evolutionary state would not have the awareness to recognize his own psychology, what makes him who he is, And in fact, with the square to the sn, he is deeply needing to understand what actually makes him special. These people will actually help him see the hidden psychological dynamics at play in relationships, the way he projects a reality of not being loved and appreciated, and the way he pushes others away that do not comply with his own sense of duty and responsibility.
Yes ........ excellent
So clearly he has been involved in communities, or with groups of people in past lives, and has been learning how to appropriately share himself with others in a way that allows the space for others to be who they are- i.e. actually listening to the needs of others.
I also see now, that as a destiny, his service in this life is linked to assisting others grow beyond the limitations of their own inner fear and isolation. He can help others who are at a similar evolutionary junction to validate their unique nature and enter into relationships in a more authentic and balanced way.
Yes..................
QuoteThe very nature of these symbols, on a personal level, correlate to a deeply private and emotionally withheld individual. Who he has been in the performance of his roles on behalf of others is very different that who he has been in his private life, his personal space. The very last thing this individual would have done is to use his sexuality in any kind of role linked to his or others survival needs. His sexuality is a very private and secretive thing for him in terms of others knowing about it.
So one thing I still don't grasp, is what kind of roles did he play out? Meaning how would this have looked in past lives- how did he support himself, and thus in his social sphere?
It simply means that he was exceptional in living and playing out the external roles that he needed to play out on the behalf of others and, while doing so, affecting a persona that was utterly self contained and almost unapproachable. He played out any role that he needed to play out for the survival needs of his group and family which is how he and others where sustained. This paradigm can also include lifetimes in which he utterly retreated, rebelled, against almost any interaction with others. Which would then mean retreating into isolated environments in which he was living alone, and being utterly self reliant in this way, using the resources of the land itself as a means of personal survival.
QuoteThe Venus in Aquarius, relative to its square to the N.Node, Venus being in the 7th, has in fact correlated to other lives, and this one, in which key people have and will show up in his life for this very purpose. And these will be Souls who are actually more evolved than himself, or, at minimum, at exactly the same evolutionary gate that he is.
The only question I have about that, is how to do come to the conclusion that this correlates to OTHER LIVES, not just this one? Is it because the square implies that the lesson has been there before this life, however the soul has been resistant to it?
Yes, the square from Venus to his Nodes, the inconjuction to Pluto as well as Uranus.
QuoteConversely, this necessary discrimination needs to weed out and rebel against any false evaluations and judgments about himself that are emanating from those who are lesser evolved: in the consensus
.
Got it, and both kinds of feedback- the kind he has to weed out, and the kind that actually provides objective perspective will be the catalyst.
QuoteNo, not at all. The Father would have treated him, and his other offspring, very specially and loved them to death. The actual issue is the evolutionary condition of the father which in below, consensus, where this Soul is at. And, therefore, not a father who could give him the actual feedback that he needed in order to evolve in the ways that he needs. This is intentional on the part of this Soul because this Soul, in the end, where learn about the nature of his individuality by WHAT HE IS NOT. Thus setting up realities of contrast and comparison through which he can learn about his individuality in this way.
There would be no abuse by his father. The father, again, is just at another level of evolution. The father loved his for alls he is worth and would, indeed, support any life decisions this Soul made for itself, whether he understood those decisions or not. And, because of this, this Soul would make every effort to understand the individuality of his own children, and try, as best he could, to give them exactly what they needed.
Question about father:
Do you say that his father is encouraging and supportive because the south node is in Scorpio in the 5th house sextile it's ruler?
Yes...........
It seems that the square of Venus to the south node is what indicates to you that the father would have been in a lower evolutionary state- thus implying the lack of the kind of feedback the soul needed.
Its because of his Pluto/Uranus being in the 2nd House, his N.Node being in Taurus in the 11th, relative to the S.Node in the 5th and it's sextile back to that Pluto/Uranus. This all means it must happen, his ongoing evolutionary intentions, THROUGH HIS ON EFFORTS. Thus, his Soul creates necessary realities that generate a counter-point awareness of 'not this, not that'. And this this includes the reality of the father and the values that the father has that constitutes the very meaning for life.
Why can't we say that the father was in a higher evolutionary state, and there is a set up ultimately for the soul to receive the guidance and objective feedback of his father? Is that because such a case wouldn't set up the natural crisis as implied by the venus square?
Yes, and because of the above .................
If so, can we then say that this soul would have needed to rebel about his father, even though his father loved him, on account of not actually being understood, in order to weed out any false projections? Later in life, through the cultivation of more self awareness, this soul would be able to re-appreciate his father's love for him?
He would have quietly 'rebelled' against the father by simply living his own life, defining his own values, and thus what constituted his real meaning for life. There would be no need for some kind of active rebellion in the sense of getting in the fathers face, so to speak. The father would accept whatever individual decisions his son needed to make for his own life. As a result, there will be an intense and bonding love between one another for the whole life.
Thank you.
Really excellent work Ari !!
Bravo, Rad
Hi Rad,
Any chance you'd be willing to point out what I got wrong in my post. It would help me learn.
Peace,
Ellen
Quote from: Rad on Mar 07, 2010, 10:09 AM
****************************************************************************
***************************************************************************
No, not at all. The Father would have treated him, and his other offspring, very specially and loved them to death. The actual issue is the evolutionary condition of the father which in below, consensus, where this Soul is at. And, therefore, not a father who could give him the actual feedback that he needed in order to evolve in the ways that he needs. This is intentional on the part of this Soul because this Soul, in the end, where learn about the nature of his individuality by WHAT HE IS NOT. Thus setting up realities of contrast and comparison through which he can learn about his individuality in this way.
****************************************************************************
Hi Rad,
I am just wondering how you can determine from the chart that the father's evolutionary condition was consensus/different from the son's.
Ellen
Hi Ellen,
QuoteI am just wondering how you can determine from the chart that the father's evolutionary condition was consensus/different from the son's.
Rad just answered that- see the end of his last response to me in reply 431.
Quote from: ari moshe on Mar 09, 2010, 06:13 PM
Hi Ellen,
QuoteI am just wondering how you can determine from the chart that the father's evolutionary condition was consensus/different from the son's.
Rad just answered that- see the end of his last response to me in reply 431.
Hi Ari,
Thanks. But I guess I am just not getting it...
HI Ellen,
"Any chance you'd be willing to point out what I got wrong in my post. It would help me learn."
**********************************************
There was nothing wrong in your post. It was by no means complete in terms of the totality of the paradigm but what you did present was accurate enough.
Rad
Quote from: Ellen on Mar 10, 2010, 04:44 AM
Quote from: ari moshe on Mar 09, 2010, 06:13 PM
Hi Ellen,
QuoteI am just wondering how you can determine from the chart that the father's evolutionary condition was consensus/different from the son's.
Rad just answered that- see the end of his last response to me in reply 431.
Hi Ari,
Thanks. But I guess I am just not getting it...
Hi Ari & Rad,
My question re: determining the evolutionary state of the parent is essentially this: Am I correct in understanding that once you know the evolutionary state of the person whose chart you are looking at, you can then infer the evolutionary state of the parent, and perhaps also other people in the person's life? I am asking this because I have the observation/correlation "rule" in my head - and if I'm correct in my understanding, then this seems to me that it would be an exception to the rule, or at least suggest that it only applies to the "client" - and then from there you can determine everything else.
Hope this makes sense.
Ellen
Hi Ellen,
I am not sure what 'rule' you are refering to relative to the evolutionary state of whom anyone attracts into their life. Each case is it's own case. All Souls have their own context, and their own evolutionary intentions. In combination this will correlate to the types of Souls they attract into their life and why. IN general, most Souls do gravitate to others that reflect their own evolutionary state because of the underlying issue of psychological and emotional security: the need to be self consistent in order to feel secure. Also, generally, our children tend to either be in our own evolutionary state, or just beyond. But that is a general issue, not an absolute.
Rad
just a check in. planning to post this week.
it's great to see all this learning and participation.
blessings,
bradley
Ok, so we will start with a new paradigm. We will make this the chart of a white male, born into upper middle economic conditions, no specific religious conditioning, born in Canada, who is in the last stages of the 1st Stage Individuated evolutionary condition, who has Pluto in Virgo conjunct Uransu in the 2nd House, S.Node is in Scorpio in the 5th House, N.Node in Taurus in the 11th, and it's ruler Venus in Aqaurius in the 7th, and it's squaring the Nodes. Additionally, that Venus is inconjunct the natal Uranus.
Let's have a go at it !
This man has come into this lifetime from a series of lives with the evolutionary intention of learning self sufficiency AND has also begun to act on the evolutionary impulse to evolve by merging with greater sources outside of himself(nn ruler square nodes=ppp activation).
Based on his evolutionary stage we know he is moving farther away from the mainstream values as defined by the consensus Canadian culture of birth. He has actually been evolving as an individual and moving away from staying in a conformity lifestyle. Internally he has been casting off and liberating from all the cultural values that he was taught that no longer resonate with the core values he is realizing that he holds as an individual(uranus waxing conjuct pluto 2nd relative to late 1st individuated evolutionary stage). He is naturally in a perpetual state of self analysis and self examination relative to his own ability to fill the roles and duties he is responsible for. (pluto 2nd virgo). Within this self analysis, he will repeated encounter, in cyclic crises, a breakdown of the "why" he is "failing" to be perfect regarding his own abilities to accomplish what is required of his role in a given group at any given time. This self implosion has the progressive evolutionary potential of self realization of the "true measure" of success-that is based on individual values of his capacity of bring forth what he has to offer for the betterment of himself and the group.
He, in the past, has intensely focused upon his own self expression and purpose while sustaining any particular position/role in which he had taken on.(scorpio s.n. relative to pluto virgo 2nd) How he went about finding out the "bottom line" of what he was called to do was by turning inward into the core of who he was realizing he is/was becoming. (pluto as ruler of s.n). This penetrating inward focus of his own attention and self analysis was the way in which he was able to realize what his own values were, especially relative to roles individuals play in groups. (all of the above relative to activated n.n via n.n. ruler square) And so, his progressive journey thru the first stage of the the individuated evolutionary state has a "trademark" of initiating experiences that allowed new self awarenesses of what values(at any moment) no longer resonated with the essence who he is/where he stands-thus learning to continue to shed away and liberate from the canadian cultural values that do not align with what he knows to be inner truth.
He had realized at a point in time that he needed to be in groups of like minded/shared values peoples. This was essential because there was no other way for him to fulfill his destiny and purpose of taking on an essential role which was worthwhile and allowed his emerging and evolving individual self expression. He began to open up to many different people, points of view and perspectives which allowed for these new group experiences to manifest. (ruler n.n. aquarius 7th-n.n. taurus 11th) By skipping ahead to initiate these types of experiences, he faced the conflict of "loosing touch with his own special role within the group. (n.n ruler square to nodes) This lifetime it will be essential to integrate the experience of "sharing his talents" in a way that he knows is true to his own evolving purpose. (skipped step venus aquarius 7th relative to applying to his south node in scorpio 5th, n.n 11th, pluto virgo 2nd relative to ppp)
Relative to his own past evolution being characterized by the experience of liberation as his own personal inner experience(pluto uranus conjuct 2nd), the experience of relating to himself via a multitude of various perspectives and opinions(n.n. venus in auquarius 7th) sets the stage for the relationship crises he has repeated experienced in his life.( inconjuct uranus to venus). He is obviously a man who is more comfortable being in control of his experiences(s.n 5th scorpio/pluto 2nd). And so he would naturally dominate his personal relationships-especially regarding what is expected of him. Also, he would tend to be detached in his listening to partners and others(venus aquarius 7th). His personal gravitation toward his own self expression, his own sexuality, his own inner security has built up power imbalances in past relationships-basically that he is withholding/not sharing himself in relationships-both with partners and in relationships within groups he has belongs to.(signature dynamic of venus inconjunct uranus-pluto) Because he had been so self identified with his own will power as the means to do the tasks he saw himself called to do, and because he gravitated to taking care of things by himself, and because he would often come off as detached in his engagement with partners and relationships, we can expect series of past relationships in which at some point he had to come face to face with the perspective and opinion of the other thru intense confrontations of the ultimate cause and affect of his actions within these relationships. (ppp 8th pisces-nn. venus 7th)
So, basically, at any "karmic juncture" in which his own unconscious security had lead to him retreating comfortably into his own inner world, a confrontation would have been required to catalyze the momentum out of his man-cave and share his energy and talents with those around him. He would have, via a friend, foe, or partner(venus 7th aquarius) been given "feedback" that would have allowed him to objectively see how he was not actually living out his inner values of service to his community/peoples(nn 11 taurus relative to pluto/uranus virgo 2nd). On an intimate level, this feedback/confrontation would have been his partner telling him how not present he was being with his self focus being so strong(not in such nice words either). Or, because the other would repeatedly have the experience of their needs not being met, they would have left the relationship for a partner that would actually engage with them emotionally and sexually. In this case, he has also past experience of "abandonment" and betrayal which would have been the symbolic crisis to force him to come out of himself and learn to merge with another.
So the confrontations that catalyzed his evolution brought him face to face with the ultimate truths of the life he was living(ppp 8th-pisces) or not living. Again, as he is evolving and awakening to his calling, it is most important that his response to the feedback he is hearing is not a decision based on others opinions. He must learn to bring forth a true and authentic expression of himself to share with his community.(sn 5th scorpio-applying square by venus skipped step).
Would it be possible to see a distortion by witnessing his own confusion about sharing his self/expressing himself(8th ppp pisces) relative to the newness of all these perspectives creating inner fragmentation of his evolving/transforming core?
Rad-
I have only partly read some of the post so far. I reread pluto 2nd, scanned pluto 6th, and did some quick references to other related chapters.
I am grateful of any advice and feedback you have regarding the continued development.
Also, I realize I could simply read the rest of everything posted on this and make sure to incorporate all that I have not---this would be my plan unless you have other advice.
Also, to read over all relevant chapters to ensure to include all relevant dynamics.
Thank you,
Blessings,
Bradley
HI Bradley,
" Would it be possible to see a distortion by witnessing his own confusion about sharing his self/expressing himself(8th ppp pisces) relative to the newness of all these perspectives creating inner fragmentation of his evolving/transforming core?"
****************************************************************************
Yes...............
***************************************************************************
Rad-
I have only partly read some of the post so far. I reread pluto 2nd, scanned pluto 6th, and did some quick references to other related chapters.
I am grateful of any advice and feedback you have regarding the continued development.
Also, I realize I could simply read the rest of everything posted on this and make sure to incorporate all that I have not---this would be my plan unless you have other advice.
Also, to read over all relevant chapters to ensure to include all relevant dynamics.
***************************************************************************
So far you have done a good job. I would recommend that you read what others have written as well. In never hurts to bring in other perspectives and understandings as long as they are accurate. And, yes, to read over all relevant chapters ........... good job Bradley.....
*************************************************************************
Rad
Hi Rad,
Thanks for your continued support and dedication to our learning here.
Yes, I will continue to develop and incorporate and study relative to this assignment.
PRACTICE CHART: Ok, so we will start with a new paradigm. We will make this the chart of a white male, born into upper middle economic conditions, no specific religious conditioning, born in Canada, who is in the last stages of the 1st Stage Individuated evolutionary condition, who has Pluto in Virgo conjunct Uranus in the 2nd House, S.Node is in Scorpio in the 5th House, N.Node in Taurus in the 11th, and it's ruler Venus in Aqaurius in the 7th, and it's squaring the Nodes. Additionally, that Venus is inconjunct the natal Uranus. Let's have a go at it !
Background and Evolutionary Condition
Born into the upper middle class in Canada, the Soul's own father's prescription or role model (SN 5th) for higher education, liberal beliefs, professional work, above-average income, and heterosexuality would at first be employed in order that life appear "normal" from a consensus point of view (1st Stage Individuated). However, while the Soul had not been living who he really is (1st Individuated), living a lie, and hiding behind a detached and unapproachable nature (Uranus conj Pluto, NN 11th, Venus in Aquarius), he is beginning to shake off "external conditioning patterns" as he discovers more about who he naturally is through ongoing individuated self-discovery (end of 1st Stage Individuated) as well as through crisis, shocks, trauma, confrontation and feedback from friends, partners, lovers, workmates and groups.
Core orientation
The prior evolutionary intention is rooted in the act of internalization and withdrawal in order to discover his values and needs from within himself (2nd). Through self-analysis he is learning to contribute to the wider social system in a meaningful way (Virgo), by relating to other people's values (2nd), listening to different realities of people through contrast and comparison (7th), creating awareness of the lesson of opening up and merging with powerful "others" such as intimate partners or employers (PPP 8th), and liberating from relationship forms as defined by the consensus (Venus in Aquarius 7th, skipped steps, 1st Stage Individuated).
Limited vision and a high degree of resistance are evident by virtue of the main karmic signature (fixed, 2nd, 5th, and 11th, Scorpio, Taurus, and Aquarius). The core orientation is self-centredness (SN 5th), and in order to move toward equality in his relationships (7th), he will necessarily create a self-introspective consciousness (Virgo) in order to improve himself. In his ongoing individuated journey his intense self-examination leads to ever-deeper levels of self-knowledge (Scorpio). Repeating signatures correlate to a natural bisexuality (in all areas of the core dynamic).
He has a tendency to live in his head (Virgo, 7th), to be detached and unapproachable (Uranus, 11th, Aquarius), withdrawn, isolated, fixed, masturbatory (2nd), secretive, powerful, highly sexual (Scorpio), self-centred, high narcissistic (5th), non-conventional, rebellious (Uranus). Trying to appear "normal" generates enormous frustration and isolation.
Skipped Steps and Sexuality
In the evolutionary past he created a situation based on denial of his true sexuality due to psychological and emotional withholding of himself, and he is endeavouring to recover those steps via the resolution node (SN). There is a seesaw back and forth in the areas of the South and North Nodes, and in the present life, for the skipped steps to be recovered, key relationships need to be re-ignited, around the denial of his bisexuality (Venus square Nodes). The old patterns describe the use of his own body as a symbol of self-reliance and inner power because it is what he knows and trusts. There is a repetitive pattern of over-compensation or of being of powerful sexual service (Virgo) because of his sexual inadequacy with partners, which has affected his self-worth (2nd) at a core level.
In order to appear "normal" (1st Individuated) his relationships start out as the conventional and heterosexual kind. Due to an inability to really be sexually intimate with a partner, he brings a false sense of intensity (Scorpio) to the sexual act by way of sexual techniques (Virgo), that are devoid of true feeling and connection. This can be further exacerbated by feelings of masochism, inadequacy and impurity (Virgo).
The neglect of his partners leads to imbalance in relationships (7th) which leads to confrontations and crisis (such as secret affairs, separation, divorce, children and father being affected, family upheaval, toppling of pyramid structure, sexual problems, trauma, shock - Scorpio 5th) and necessary feedback as to who he truly is. The emotional and psychological shocks and confrontations with partners will lead to the conscious awareness of a phallus obsession (5th), bisexuality (Uranus/Pluto inconjunct Venus, NN 11th), as well as feelings of intense betrayal, loss and abandonment (Scorpio). This leads him to examine the cause of unresolved traumas and his inability to engage intimately with others (Pluto/Uranus square Nodes; 11th, Venus in Aquarius).
Soul Crisis and Trauma
This karmic signature can lead to the constant repetition of crisis and trauma of all kinds such as mental trauma, having to modify his value system, changing his fixed beliefs, loss of material possessions, loss of relationships or what he values (Uranus 2nd), psychological separation, isolation, sadomasochism, persecution complex (Uranus in Virgo), trauma in the workplace due to a different approach to work, feelings of inadequacy, inability to actualize correct work function, hiding behind work, keeping constantly busy, loss of employment, changes in career path, ridicule and public humiliation, and feelings of victimization.
When shocks and traumas such as these take place, he is forced to withdraw, look within, ask "why," make an honest assessment (Scorpio), make necessary adjustments (Virgo), and learn through the vehicle of disillusionment (PPP). These processes expose his personal limitations and ways of relating to reality, and allow him to objectively see the truth of himself, and bring awareness to his core sexual identity (skipped steps).
Liberation
This soul has sought to liberate from external conditions that prevent a direct experience of his inner core. He is able to liberate himself from relationship forms that are defined by the consensus. He learns about his differentness through a process of elimination: an awareness of what he is not so that his true natural self is revealed. He will form relationships with others who feel just as disconnected and detached as himself and who will offer objective feedback as to the structure of his own psychology and relationships. He is learning to find a balance between self-reliance and a need for intimacy; relationships where both partners can arrive at their own self-reliance, while being committed on a self-sufficient basis; the freedom to have relationships with both men and women; to relate to others in a totally different way; and a freeing up of his true nature.
~ ~ ~
Quote from: DhyanaDec2 on Mar 23, 2010, 07:11 AM
I just wanted to let all my dear new friends on here know that I have not posted bc since returning from my trip to Florida, my already weakened state of health has become a bit more intense. I do not have the energy right now. I will keep reading the board, of course, but I simply do not have the energy right now to work on the practice charts. I hope to regain my strength and stability soon. Keep me in your hearts and prayers. I will keep checking in.
Maybe someone good at the medical portion of ea could direct me to helpful post/topic on here or something. -- any input would be so appreciated right about now (perhaps under a different thread, not here on practice charts, of course).
Love,
Dhyana
Hi Dhyana,
I'm so sorry to hear about your ill health. I just wanted you to know that I'm thinking of you and wishing you well.
Peace,
Ellen
Hi Linda,
Quote from: Linda on Mar 23, 2010, 02:21 AM
PRACTICE CHART: Ok, so we will start with a new paradigm. We will make this the chart of a white male, born into upper middle economic conditions, no specific religious conditioning, born in Canada, who is in the last stages of the 1st Stage Individuated evolutionary condition, who has Pluto in Virgo conjunct Uranus in the 2nd House, S.Node is in Scorpio in the 5th House, N.Node in Taurus in the 11th, and it's ruler Venus in Aqaurius in the 7th, and it's squaring the Nodes. Additionally, that Venus is inconjunct the natal Uranus. Let's have a go at it !
Background and Evolutionary Condition
Born into the upper middle class in Canada, the Soul's own father's prescription or role model (SN 5th) for higher education, liberal beliefs, professional work, above-average income, and heterosexuality would at first be employed in order that life appear "normal" from a consensus point of view (1st Stage Individuated). However, while the Soul had not been living who he really is (1st Individuated), living a lie, and hiding behind a detached and unapproachable nature (Uranus conj Pluto, NN 11th, Venus in Aquarius), he is beginning to shake off "external conditioning patterns" as he discovers more about who he naturally is through ongoing individuated self-discovery (end of 1st Stage Individuated) as well as through crisis, shocks, trauma, confrontation and feedback from friends, partners, lovers, workmates and groups.
************************************************************************
There is nothing in the paradigm that we are working with that suggests that his father had 'liberal' beliefs or values.
*************************************************************************
Core orientation
The prior evolutionary intention is rooted in the act of internalization and withdrawal in order to discover his values and needs from within himself (2nd). Through self-analysis he is learning to contribute to the wider social system in a meaningful way (Virgo), by relating to other people's values (2nd),
****************************************************************************
Other peoples values would correlate to the 7th House, and Libra not the 2nd House .. the 2nd House correlates to one's own values that connect to the sense of meaning for living ............
***************************************************************************
listening to different realities of people through contrast and comparison (7th), creating awareness of the lesson of opening up and merging with powerful "others" such as intimate partners or employers (PPP 8th), and liberating from relationship forms as defined by the consensus (Venus in Aquarius 7th, skipped steps, 1st Stage Individuated).
Limited vision and a high degree of resistance are evident by virtue of the main karmic signature (fixed, 2nd, 5th, and 11th, Scorpio, Taurus, and Aquarius). The core orientation is self-centredness (SN 5th), and in order to move toward equality in his relationships (7th), he will necessarily create a self-introspective consciousness (Virgo) in order to improve himself. In his ongoing individuated journey his intense self-examination leads to ever-deeper levels of self-knowledge (Scorpio). Repeating signatures correlate to a natural bisexuality (in all areas of the core dynamic).
He has a tendency to live in his head (Virgo, 7th), to be detached and unapproachable (Uranus, 11th, Aquarius), withdrawn, isolated, fixed, masturbatory (2nd), secretive, powerful, highly sexual (Scorpio), self-centred, high narcissistic (5th), non-conventional, rebellious (Uranus). Trying to appear "normal" generates enormous frustration and isolation.
Skipped Steps and Sexuality
In the evolutionary past he created a situation based on denial of his true sexuality due to psychological and emotional withholding of himself, and he is endeavouring to recover those steps via the resolution node (SN). There is a seesaw back and forth in the areas of the South and North Nodes, and in the present life, for the skipped steps to be recovered, key relationships need to be re-ignited, around the denial of his bisexuality (Venus square Nodes). The old patterns describe the use of his own body as a symbol of self-reliance and inner power because it is what he knows and trusts. There is a repetitive pattern of over-compensation or of being of powerful sexual service (Virgo) because of his sexual inadequacy with partners, which has affected his self-worth (2nd) at a core level.
In order to appear "normal" (1st Individuated) his relationships start out as the conventional and heterosexual kind. Due to an inability to really be sexually intimate with a partner, he brings a false sense of intensity (Scorpio) to the sexual act by way of sexual techniques (Virgo), that are devoid of true feeling and connection. This can be further exacerbated by feelings of masochism, inadequacy and impurity (Virgo).
The neglect of his partners leads to imbalance in relationships (7th) which leads to confrontations and crisis (such as secret affairs, separation, divorce, children and father being affected, family upheaval, toppling of pyramid structure, sexual problems, trauma, shock - Scorpio 5th) and necessary feedback as to who he truly is. The emotional and psychological shocks and confrontations with partners will lead to the conscious awareness of a phallus obsession (5th), bisexuality (Uranus/Pluto inconjunct Venus, NN 11th), as well as feelings of intense betrayal, loss and abandonment (Scorpio). This leads him to examine the cause of unresolved traumas and his inability to engage intimately with others (Pluto/Uranus square Nodes; 11th, Venus in Aquarius).
Soul Crisis and Trauma
This karmic signature can lead to the constant repetition of crisis and trauma of all kinds such as mental trauma, having to modify his value system, changing his fixed beliefs, loss of material possessions, loss of relationships or what he values (Uranus 2nd), psychological separation, isolation, sadomasochism, persecution complex (Uranus in Virgo), trauma in the workplace due to a different approach to work, feelings of inadequacy, inability to actualize correct work function, hiding behind work, keeping constantly busy, loss of employment, changes in career path, ridicule and public humiliation, and feelings of victimization.
When shocks and traumas such as these take place, he is forced to withdraw, look within, ask "why," make an honest assessment (Scorpio), make necessary adjustments (Virgo), and learn through the vehicle of disillusionment (PPP). These processes expose his personal limitations and ways of relating to reality, and allow him to objectively see the truth of himself, and bring awareness to his core sexual identity (skipped steps).
Liberation
This soul has sought to liberate from external conditions that prevent a direct experience of his inner core. He is able to liberate himself from relationship forms that are defined by the consensus. He learns about his differentness through a process of elimination: an awareness of what he is not so that his true natural self is revealed. He will form relationships with others who feel just as disconnected and detached as himself and who will offer objective feedback as to the structure of his own psychology and relationships. He is learning to find a balance between self-reliance and a need for intimacy; relationships where both partners can arrive at their own self-reliance, while being committed on a self-sufficient basis; the freedom to have relationships with both men and women; to relate to others in a totally different way; and a freeing up of his true nature.
~ ~ ~
Very, very good analysis so far. Keep going ...................
Rad
checking in.
please proceed if it feels right.
I am still planning to work on this and looks like I should have time to do this in next few days.
Blessings,
Bradley
HI Group,
Wanting to find out who is still in our little group for the practice charts, so please let me know. And for those who have already done some work in the current one that we have been working on let me know who still indends to continue to do so like Bradley. Want to determine when it would be the right time to post the next practice chart.
Rad
Hi Rad,
I'm interested but my life's a little crazy right now. But if I can navigate the change well enough, I'd like to continue. So I guess I'm saying yes, but I can't promise...
Peace,
Ellen
Hi Rad,
Because of my health situation at the moment, it's probably best if I didnt commit to anymore practice charts --but just right now -- this is just temporary ( I hope). I have such limited time with the computer lately.
If you guys are still going to work on the present chart for a week or two more and the new practice chart isnt given out until then, then at that time (the release of the new practice chart) I can re-assess my health situation in this regard.
How often do you usually give out practice charts --roughly?
Thanks for asking.
Dhyana
Rad,
Yes I would like to continue with Practice Charts.
Is there any further work on this paradigm that you wish us to do?
Thanks!
Dear Rad,
Thank you, yes, I would like very much to continue. This is such an amazing learning thread.
After reading the posts and related chapters, and rereading my first post, I have learned a lot here. Decided to focus on developing themes that I did not go into much in previous post. This may be a bit jumpy-a-roundish, yet it makes sense rather than re-write and restate all the previous.
Work
We have spoken of this man's own withdraw into himself(pluto 2/sn scorpio - ruler 2nd). Based on these ongoing lessons on complete self sufficiency from his past, we see he can easily "do his part". And yet, due to his own inner unconscious guilt from the past when he "failed" to truly serve a meaningful role relative to the group he was choosing to involve himself with, he also has a cyclic pattern in which his core creative purpose has gone through "death and rebirth"(sn scorpio 5) - repeatedly analyzing his own lack in perfectly doing his role has resulted in his being stuck in the limits of his own capabilities. In effect, he would allow his previous purpose to die and initiate involvement and work again when he experienced a "rebirth" of a new sense of his own purpose.
He has shocking feedback from a diversity of other peoples (venus 7/aquarius inconjunct uranus) regarding his needs to adjust his behavior - especially regarding trusting others to share the work load, adjust his own role to fit the group values, not simply his own values.(nn taurus 11/all that 2nd) He has become so inwardly focused that to move beyond controlling his work role via his own will power required necessary shocks and confrontations and betrayals which have triggered the needed self analysis which did begin his process of needed self adjustment - coming out of his well/cave to experience the fulfillment of merging with a power outside his own limits-thru the group of like-minded individuals he would surround himself with.
It is clear (nn ruler square nodes) he did begin such a process - via starting to listen to what others are telling him - taking from it the parts that resonate with meaning for his own role and adjusting accordingly.(venus aquarius) And yet, his own propensity to retreat back into "doing it himself"(entire P.L. signature) repeatedly results in him either not sharing in the work experience due to the simplicity of doing it himself, the lack of trust he has in others to pay attention to all the details, and because he lost a sense of his own creative role when he began to open up to listen to so many others opinions and ideas about how the work should be carried out. This sense of working with the group, yet loosing his own purpose in it is an experience that would be responded to by retreating back into just doing his part by himself. But because his role is now influenced by others ideas and he hasn't yet had a rebirth of his own purpose within this, the work is becoming simply meaningless. The resulting emptiness within and aloneness becomes overwhelming. At this point, he will need to truly forgive himself for all his "mistakes" and tolerate the imperfections in his own ability to work together as well as provide the same unconditional support to his cohorts. At karmic points in his life, key people will come into his life that will give him the feedback (venus as ruler nn in aquarius 7th inconjunct uranus/pluto 2/square to nodes))that he really needs to hear to support him making these self adjustments. This feedback and sharing will potentially awaken in the core of his being(inconjunct to uranus 2)how to reclaim for himself a purpose (venus square- skipped step sn 5)within the sharing of his talents (ppp)within socially meaningful roles(nn 11/ongoing lesson pluto virgo). This process has the potential to be very humbling and growth oriented provided his own guilt and mistrust don't send him into the cave of mental and emotional paralysis. What he may realize through the crisis of these "service failures" is that in his own effort to fill a socially meaningful role with his own talents he set up the experience of loosing his own purpose in his effort to listen to everyone else's opinions.
Sexual Nature and Relationships:
When he is done working for the day, he retreats back to his den for food and masturbation. He has a naturally strong masturbatory desire(pluto 2 and ruler sn scorpio5th) and this becomes his own way to "ground out" and release from the experiences of the day(often). Within his own sexuality, he carries guilt - although he may not think this consciously. He has been so self sexually focused, he has highly developed response to himself touching himself.
Past life relationships in which he was not sexually fulfilling, not emotionally present, and the resulting traumas are part of the cause of this guilt he carries regarding his sexual nature. He also carries the guilt of attracting partners and then being really distant and withdrawn. He carries with him also deep fears of loss and betrayal which are huge hurdles to overcome on the road to real intimacy.
This lifetime is certainly about casting off and freeing himself from the guilt that is held deep within (pluto -uranus new conjunction 2nd). ?would this actually be stored in the physical body? Guilt of not being sexually adequate in pleasing and fulfilling past partners. Part of his guilt is because he has masturbated so much and responds more to his own touch than his past partners. And that he is more focused on the phallus and male sex organs and has been in heterosexual relationships because it was what a "normal" person would do. (1st individuated) Also, his partners haven't been able to touch him in a way that is equal in gratification to his own touch. Actual intercourse with women partners would be so stimulating to the highly developed nerves on his penis that he ejaculates very quickly. Of course, the woman was just getting started. So, he sees this as a failure on some level. Out of this sense of guilt for failing to sexually fulfill, he has worked hard to learn specific sexual techniques; way of atoning for the guilt(pluto virgo 2). Although these techniques may bring the female partner he is with the experience of an intense orgasm, he is not actually emotionally sharing of himself in this regard - it is a secondhand sex high for him that lasts a short while. For her, it is sexual, but distant on an emotional level and lacking intimacy. In these types of relationships, he has experiences of total powerlessness because he is still not accepting his own sexual nature.
Then comes the shock and confrontation in which his partner declares she is leaving because he is so not emotionally present and so self focused. She is not having a deep connection and lacks attention. She doesn't feel he is being honestly open and sharing himself in the relationship (pluto 2nd/scorpio sn/ nn 11/inconjunct etc.) Or he finds out she has been having an affair and a confrontation ensues.
As this cyclic crises continue, we hope he is learning why he created these crisis. The answer lies in learning to liberate from the definition of normal social roles and values that his culture has taught him.(pluto-uranus/nn11taurus/late 1st ind) Within this, liberating from what he was taught relationships are suppose to be like - obviously not for him.
It is possible on some level, due to the guilt he carries and resulting atoning actions, he has continued to create this crises because he feels he doesn't deserve better.
In this case, the soul's movement into middle individuated may lead into the end of this measuring of self worth on a socially taught standard. Yet, it is clear from this signature that the soul intends to liberate from all values that do not resonate at core level and continue to objectively see what holds most meaning for him as an individual.(uranus/pluto 2, nn 11 taurus, ruler venus aquarius)
Self acceptance of his own sexual nature will be an important step. This step in evolution will come, again, from key relationships(nn ruler) in which the other reflects back to him the true nature of his desires and needs ...AND( this is a big part of it) how to simply accept all these parts of himself. Acceptance of how he desires to sexually share himself(ppp 8 pisces) It is thru conversations with these key relationships in which he would actually realize the "normalness" of his own bisexual nature(pluto-uranus 2/sn scorpio 5th/ nn 11 taurus-ruler aquarius 7th) He can begin to accept the nature of his desire to experiment outside of the cultural norms with relationships. This would be fueled by a personal rebirth in his own sexuality (resolved skipped step to sn 5 scorpio)- acceptance of his own bisexuality.
"Individuated Unconscious Memory"
With pluto/uranus in the second virgo, it suggests that this soul is now learning that withdrawing into his self is a place he encounters, at certain times, memories from his own unconsciousness. These flashes of memory are related to past lives, his repressed memories, and his own "blueprint" of what he is becoming.
Due to the unpredictable nature of these bursts from his unconscious memory(1st ind), at any time he may be needing to suddenly process and release these memories as they surface. Being sexually mental (virgo 2nd), some of the memories may be triggered by his own orgasm-sudden release of past life memory or future memory into the conscious mind. Due to the trine of the pluto-uranus to the north node, he has learned to integrate the memories as they surface and liberate/eliminate the memories that no longer identify who he essentially is(nn 11taurus). He has begun a new evolutionary cycle in which he has quickened in this lifetime the clearing out and release of all the old ways of self analysis and what constitutes meaningful social roles.(2nd house stuff + nn)
In light of this and Uranus's inconjunct to venus aquarius, this life for him is a cyclic house clearing of the totality of his past that will not serve the evolution of his soul as he nears the middle of individuated evolution. All memories that contain socially imprinted values, failure to fulfill these expectations, and guilt of such failures are wanting to be brought to the consciousness and eliminated.
At his evolutionary stage, what capacity does he have to do this type of work?
And yet, relative to the nn ruler venus inconjunct uranus and the ppp is pisces in the 8th, these memories bursting up into his consciousness at uncontrollable moments in time may also trigger confusion and disorientation. Relative to the newness of the pluto uranus phase, his own encountering of this experience is new also.
I feel like I could add more on relationship dynamics. I'll wait for feedback and rest.
Thanks for your time,
Bradley
Hi Bradley,
First, EXCEPTIONAL work here ............. bravo. The guilt that he carries is reflected in his body, yes. And that guilt is held in his body in such a way that his physical body will almost always be in a state of rigidity. In terms of his evolutionary state, and the ability to do what he needs to do in order to evolve, the answer is yes. If we look at this paradigm in the deepest way, the Venus in Aquarius in the 7th squaring his Nodes, inconjuncting his Pluto/Uranus with Uranus being the ruler of that Venus, he will, at some point, attract an intimate partner/ marriage mate who reflects back to him his core sexual nature by being in that same situation herself: that she will realize that her own core nature is also bisexual with her first choice being women. Just as he is bisexual with his first choice being men. So what this means is both of them ending up becoming partner together due to mutual compensation as defined by the 'norms' of society. As a result of then being together due to compensation in this way they will then create the relationship dynamics that have been amply and correctly identified by you and others. As some point the necessary emotional/ psychological shocks that will be created will then lead to the mutual awareness within one another of their core emotional/ psychological/ sexual natures. At that necessary point of realization for both of them this will then lead to the dialoges necessary of how to adjust their relationship to reflect these core realizations. In all likelihood they would have had children prior to this point: his S.Node in the 5th. That fact would then cause them to want to sustain the marriage because of the commitments made of course to the children. So at the point the need to design creative solutions for their relationships would be at hand, solutions that honored their existing commitment to one another, and their children.
Bravo Bradley,
Rad
Rad,
Thanks for the support and feedback.
...and for adding these aspects of marriage and children.
A question I have still is regarding his father. Reading Ari Moshe and your dialog on this made sense. Yet I lack the perspective of the same planetary signature in different houses.
Is the information we know about his father exclusively tied to the south node being in the fifth?
Would the sextiling sn ruler alone give us any of this information?
My own answer is that this speaks directly to his father's support and providing what he 'needs' to 'make it' is hinged on this being 5th and 2nd house sextile relationship.
I'm sensing that the sextile of pluto as sn ruler to south node alone does tell us there will be ease of some sort in the transitioning from child, youth, young adult and beyond the saturn return.
Where that ease is and how it manifests in hinged on the house placement.
If this were a south node in the forth and the pluto/uranus was in the 2nd still, would this support be more about the family in general and perhaps the mother specifically before the father?
Thanks,
Bradley
Hi Bradley,
A question I have still is regarding his father. Reading Ari Moshe and your dialog on this made sense. Yet I lack the perspective of the same planetary signature in different houses.
Is the information we know about his father exclusively tied to the south node being in the fifth?
Would the sextiling sn ruler alone give us any of this information?
***************************************************************************
This is why it is so important to understand the individual context of any given Soul. Remember this is a Soul that is bisexual with a preference for men before a women. Thus, he trusts men more than women. Looking at this whole paradigm we can see that he has experienced a variety of traumas linked with women: his Venus in Aquarius in the 7th, not only squaring his Nodes, but inconjunct his Pluto and Uranus in the 2nd. The reasons for those traumas we have identified in this thread. As a result, in his context, he would naturally trust men more than women which leads to his father being trusted more than his mother. So, yes, in this context that is symbolized in his S.Node in Scorpio in the 5th sextiling his Pluto/Uranus in the 2nd. So he would naturally 'bond' with the father more than the mother.
***************************************************************************
My own answer is that this speaks directly to his father's support and providing what he 'needs' to 'make it' is hinged on this being 5th and 2nd house sextile relationship.
I'm sensing that the sextile of pluto as sn ruler to south node alone does tell us there will be ease of some sort in the transitioning from child, youth, young adult and beyond the saturn return.
Where that ease is and how it manifests in hinged on the house placement.
If this were a south node in the forth and the pluto/uranus was in the 2nd still, would this support be more about the family in general and perhaps the mother specifically before the father?
**************************************************************************
That signature would still have Venus in Aquarius in the 7th with the Nodes being squared from 4th to 10th. So, in his context, this would create much more of a confrontational dynamic with the mother than the other signature with the Nodes in the 5th/ 11th. The mother would be perceived by him as dominating, controlling, manipulative, and generally not supportive of who he is. This would also then correlate to being born through a mother that has been his mother before in which a variety of emotional/ psychological dynamics were not resolved. He would also perceive his father being dominated by his mother, and not offering the emotional protection that he needed. The sextile from the Pluto/Uranus to that S.Node in Scorpio, the trine to the N.Node in Taurus would then correlate to his way of surviving that type of mother: retreating even further into his Soul cocoon. In this context he would still very much be bonding with the father, and they would connect in a mutual cocoon relative to the dominance of the mother
Rad
I have read through the thread and would like to participate in the next chart example, Thanks Rad!
HI Practice Chart Group,
Ok, let me know if all of you are ready for a new EA paradigm, or if there is anything left over from the last one that we have been working on. And welcome aboard Jeff to our little group.
Rad
Hi Rad,
I am going to be able to try this one bc I feel a tiny bit better. Thanks.
Dhyana
Rad and all,
I have been thinking about one other dynamic to this practice chart. Simply the pluto/polarity point axis in light of pluto being the sn ruler and in virgo in the second.
Rad, you described it as the soul cocoon, and we as a group have expressed this retreat back into the self, etc.
What I have been thinking is that we could still add more emphasis on this - the pisces dynamic of "standing on the precipice of the know light of the past and the darkness of the abyss" for this soul seems to be amplified greatly. In fact, the retreat back to the known is most likely the triggering of the relationship crisis dynamics to repeat over and over. He would be (virgo) have this endless list of things to do - relative to "his" role evolving into "my part within 'our' role together".
So, I just wanted to add this emphasis of the 8th house pisces pluto polarity and how, even though it has been activated, still would be so much easier to avoid from a soul security level until the crisis via relationship again force the necessary confrontations and promote self growth in regards to totally dissolving, merging, and surrendering to the experience of "union".
Rad, as you pointed out, the eventual finding of the mate who will allow these experiences and support where he is coming from, at, and evolving to is so crucial in light of this. This mate, in a healthy piscean sense would need to be bringing 'unconditional love' to the marriage as starting point to the deeper commitment they would make together. Without this unconditional love, this soul would again fall into the confusion, the disorientation, and would retreat into his comfortable familiar soul cocoon.
Rad,
any other dynamics you'd like us to ponder on this that we have yet to fully develop or notice at all?
Yes, I'm in on the next round.
Thanks,
Bradley
Hi Rad, I do have one question,
What would the timing be for meeting this soul mate? Would it be linked to the transiting or progressed phasal relationship between Venus and Pluto? In other words, if it is fated to happen in order to enforce evolutionary necessity, can we know the timing for it?
And can we with certainty say that it will happen because of the nature of his Venus- implying the build up of resistance prior to this life- creating the necessity for crisis to occur in order to enforce evolution?
Thank you.
Oh! Thanks for pointing that out. I'm going to delete that portion of my post and read the whole context over again.
HI Bradley,
Yes, what you have stated is all very, very true. As stated earlier his Soul will attract another Soul whom he has had prior life relationships with in which there have been previous traumas, cataclysms, with. And for the reasons we have talked about in this thread. The core intentions in all of those previous traumas has been, and remains to be, to help him 'objectify' himself: his actual reality, his actual needs, who he actually is. This would also apply to the partner herself. And, as stated earlier, that partner will also be a Soul who is also bisexual, with a first tendency towards women, just as he has a first tendency towards men.
They will both love one another in their own ways: Venus in the 7th in Aquarius. Yet their essential natures, and the needs of those natures, will cause a progressive emotional/ psychological/ sexual distancing from one another as symbolized in his EA signature itself. This will then cause the various types of traumas that we have discussed. This will then lead to necessary talks and discussions that generate realizations for them both about their essential natures and needs. In other words each of them will serve as vehicles for the other to 'objectify' themselves together.
As this takes place, because of the core love they will have for one another, and given the fact that they will have had children together, they will then try to find creative solutions for each other to actualize their core natures within the context of their sustained marriage. In this sense, they will each have the best of both worlds in that by sustaining the base of their marriage this then allows each to find partners of the same sex in order actualize their core natures. And, because of this, this will then allow for him to plunge into that 8th House PP point: to have a loving partner who supports what he needs to do, just as he will support her for the same reasons. The key of course will be to choose those other partners who are secure enough within themselves that they do not threaten the existing marriage of these two. In other words others, who are made aware from the beginning that he, and his mate, intend to remain married.
Rad
Hi Ari,
Quote from: ari moshe on Apr 10, 2010, 03:45 PM
Hi Rad, I do have one question,
What would the timing be for meeting this soul mate? Would it be linked to the transiting or progressed phasal relationship between Venus and Pluto? In other words, if it is fated to happen in order to enforce evolutionary necessity, can we know the timing for it?
**************************************************************************
It is fated to happen because of the Venus squaring the Nodes. The timing can occur in different ways as in transits to the Venus itself, progressions to it, transits to the Pluto/Uranus conjunction because Uranus in the ruler of that Venus, progressions to this point, transits or progressions to the S /N Nodes.
*****************************************************************************
And can we with certainty say that it will happen because of the nature of his Venus- implying the build up of resistance prior to this life- creating the necessity for crisis to occur in order to enforce evolution?
***************************************************************************
Yes, and the Venus squaring the Nodes.
***********************************************************************
Rad
Hi Gonzalo,
The assumption you made in what you shared is the problem in the analysis: sustaining the relationship only because of the children. They would BOTH sustain it because they also have a core love for one another, of desiring to help one another evolve in their own lives, of wanting to share in that together, and to support one another in that process. The S.Node does sextile his Pluto/Uranus, and the N.Node does trine it. The female partner will have been a Soul that he has had prior lives with. They would have already been through a great deal in other times together. And that fact is the binding fact of why they are together again in this life, finding themselves in the current life in the way that they do, and desiring to help one another in the ways that each actually need in order to continue to evolve.
Rad
Alright! Now I'm all ready for the next one.
Hi Practice Group,
Ok, it's time to work with another paradigm. Let's make this a women born Holland, the very beginning of the 3rd Stage individuated, middle income economic bracket growing up with her parents, and no specific religious conditioning. This paradigm will have a 12 House Pluto in Scorpio, S.Node in Libra in the 11th, ruler Venus in Leo in the 9th, N.Node in Aries in the 5th, and it's ruler Mars in Gemini in the 7th.
So let's have a go at it.
Rad
Rad, are the aspects the "default ones"? i.e. Pluto inconjunct the nodes, venus square pluto etc...
Ari,
Yes ..................
Rad
In reference to "default ones" -- I am not sure what you guys are talking about ....why are we to assume Pluto Inconjunction and Venus square for practice charts?
Thanks
Dhyana
Hi Dhyana,
Default means by sign ... i.e. Venus in Leo squares Pluto in Scorpio. Since we have not put actual degrees on any of the symbols, i.e. Venus at 9 Leo, Ari is referering to these natural 'default' aspects: Leo does naturally square Scorpio, etc.
Rad
Related to previous assignment, I wanted to share this.
Rad you wrote "retreating even further into his Soul cocoon." and just the phrase cocoon relative to the 2nd house here, but applying to taurus and 2nd - cocoon is a great way to refer to this archetype, especially thinking of the opposition to scorpio/8th and the metamorphose.
I just wanted to share that it has been really amazing sitting here looking at the next client chart and plugging in the concept word 'cocoon' with taurus and 2nd house signatures. I feel like it is helping me understand the archetypal energy and it is a word that is really supportive description of the archetype within an EA session.
Reflecting on using 'cave' vs. cocoon to describe and discuss this archetype, cocoon is perfect.
Many thanks,
Bradley
continued.............
***************************************************************************
No. She would not be integrating in a dependent mode at all. She would, indeed, be full of herself: Venus in Leo in the 9th House, trine the 5th House N.Node in ARIES.
**************************************************************************
Because Pluto is in the 12th House, most of these dynamics have been and will continue to be unsatisfying: basically, they have had the intention to make her advance in her evolutionary journey through the individuated condition. From the point of view of her egocentric identities, ie. the personas she has created, she will not understand why she feels unsatisfied (Pluto in the 12th House, semisextile to the SN; Pluto in the 12th House relative to the aspects of the Nodes rulers with the Nodes and the aspects of the Nodes/their rulers to Pluto). Neither will she understand why others manifest anger at her, or why she feels a deep guilt she cannot relate to anything she has ever done (the inconjunct between Pluto in the 12th House and Mars in the 7th House). At her evolutionary stage she would still need to exhaust separating desires by means of accomplishing something very special and unique on behalf of society: something done on behalf of others, even serving true needs of others, though done in her own terms, as an expression of her own knowledge and creativity (NN in the 5th House, ruler in the 7th House). Hence, she will interpret criticism from others from the point of view of maintaining her superiority (SN ruler in the 9th House Leo, NN in the 5th House, relative to Pluto in the 12th House). In a sense, this is necessary, because she has an evolutionary need for independence, to independently actualize her creativity (NN in Aries in the 5th House). She may attract persecution from others, as a consequence of her over-investment in her egocentric purposes (Pluto in the 12th House, the inconjunct between Pluto and Mars). And she would also attract other individuals who are equally or more self-centered and determined as she is (NN in the 5th Aries, ruler in the 7th).
*************************************************************************
She would interpret any potential criticism of her as PROJECTIONS from others who do not actually understand who she is, projections that are rooted in their own psychology. Thus, she will understand the anger coming at her based on this fact. These projections will indeed hurt her, Venus square the 12th House Pluto, because she feels within herself that she has been as honest with others as she possibly can be. She will also feel that she has tried to give to others what they need: S.Node in Libra in the 11th that is trine her 7th House Mars. For some others that was never enough because some others have been so insecure within their own realities that it manifested as a kind of bottomless pit: Venus in Leo, square the Pluto in Scorpio in the 12th, inconjuncting the 7th House Mars.
****************************************************************************
The reason for this is that she has overly identified with just an aspect or dynamic within herself, in order to feel secure, instead of facing the abyss that lies beneath and, at the same time, she has set in motion the dynamics that, at certain points, will produce the necessary realizations that there is something more.
*****************************************************************************
No. She has not overly identified with one or another aspect of herself. Quite the contrary. She has spent lifetimes trying to understand and actualize every aspect of herself. This is why she has needed the freedom to do so. It is in fact the knowing that there is always something more that has fueled her desires for actualization, and the freedom necessary to do so.
**************************************************************************
These dynamics will include confrontations with others who are more powerful than she is and crises and disillusionment in personal relationships (Pluto in the 12th House, the inconjunct between Pluto and Mars in the 7th House). Some of these crises in personal relationships would have karmic reasons based on her prior manipulations and partings (Venus square Pluto). Many of these relationships would imply re-meeting people with whom she has been involved in the past, in which something has been left unresolved (the aspects between Mars and Pluto and between Mars and the SN).
***************************************************************************
The confrontations she has had with others are, again, those whom have tried to limit her, control her, manipulate her for their own needs and reasons: Venus in Leo square the 12 House Pluto. She has been very clear in her reality with others, and what has been possible , and what not. The disillusionment that you are referring too are rooted in others dishonesty, of wanting to believe in the best within others to the point of being naive, and then being hurt and disillusioned by certain others because they were not being honest. Thus, this will be an ongoing lesson for her Soul: to evaluate, S.Node in Libra in the 11th, the 7th House Mars in Gemini, and the Venus square her Pluto, 9th to 12th, as others actually are at the moment of the meeting between her and whomever. Her Soul is the kind of Soul that can 'see' the potential of another Soul, and who the Soul naturally is within itself, and then naturally expects..S.Node in Libra, the 7th House Mars, the Venus square the Pluto .. others to be that.
***********************************************************************
These experiences will induce the necessary awareness of core feelings of unsatisfaction and futility, and of the reasons for these feelings, which are rooted in the avoidance of a consistent commitment to her Soul reality, ie. what is real for her at a Soul level versus maintaining dreams and illusions. She would also face the limits of her personal power which would induce learning of humility and of compassion (the aspect between Mars and Pluto).
**************************************************************************
No.
***************************************************************************
In her current life, she would produce many of these dynamics in her biological family: a core alienation of her parents, double bind communication, their detachment from emotional reality, which would operate in dissociation with their rationally constructed identities. She would very likely experience sexual abuse (Mars in the 7th Gemini ruling the NN in Aries, and the Yod formed by the NN, Mars and Pluto), as a reflection of her own subconscious desire to be consumed by forces she cannot control, and her resistance to consciously pursuing such desire. It would also occur as a reflection of her curiosity, including sexual curiosity, leading to all type of emotional and sexual experiences promoting the awareness of forces moving beneath the surface of things. Such experience would be very shocking for her, would trigger her prior detachment response, and she would naturally want to leave her home. This could promote her approach in the direction of the PPP in Taurus, ie. self-reliance; though, it may also lead her to replay her manipulation abilities and to create dependent relationships (the past-SN Libra) by presenting an innocent, naïve and needy persona, this allowing her to leave her home through becoming dependent on other relationship.
***************************************************************************
No. There is nothing in the paradigm that we are working with that implicates the parents in anyway, certainly not in the way you have put it here.
****************************************************************************
For further evolution to proceed, she needs to embrace the PPP in the 6th House Taurus. This implies finding the adequate means to observe and analyze herself in order to discover what her motivations and desires are on an ongoing basis. This would allow her to detect her compulsive needs and dependency on external sources such as the validation or acclaim from others, her dynamics of identifying with and representing only a part of herself and thus, to embrace the totality of her Soul instead of her socially individualized and sophisticated persona, ie. to identify her Soul as her symbol of transformative power. She would also be able to face and discover the nature of her fears, phobias and addictions, instead of being controlled by them (fear of intimacy and commitment; fear of being alone; fear of crowds; potentially claustrophobia, agoraphobia, cyclic sex addiction"¦). Further, it would allow her to discriminate what people she needs to get involved with (PPP in the 6th House Taurus, and the quincunx between Pluto and Mars). She would need to relate to others who accept relating to her in her terms, ie. "this is who I am, this is what I need" (the sextile between Mars and Venus), though, her self-definition would refer to who she really is at a Soul level and what her real needs are thereof.
In order to fully commit to her Soul reality she would need to rely on a belief system explaining the nature of life at a Soul level, versus operating with ever shifting beliefs and values depending on the subconscious desires she is acting out (Pluto in the 12th House, PPP in Taurus, ruler in the 9th House). By embracing the PPP, she would also be able to link her knowledge and creativity to relevant social needs regardless of any external acclaim or grandiosity (PPP in the 6th). These lessons would lead her through the 3rd stage individuated condition and further into the spiritual state.
***************************************************************************
You need to reconsider the Pluto polarity point statements after reading what has been written above ................
[/quote]
Rad
Hi Rad,
I've been trying to wrap my head around the inconjunct. It's something I learned a lot about in the last practice chart- though I still have difficulty really knowing it.
I decided I'm going to give it a shot and from there make adjustments according to your feedback. In Gratitude,
Ari Moshe
Prior to this life, there have been great trauma that lead to complete loss of self/confusion around who she is, and what her purpose was. The nature of this Trauma has to do with communities that she was a part of- these communities in particular were subject to immense racial and religious persecution (sn in 11th, ruler in 9th- squaring pluto in 12th).
The role that she has played in these communities was as a leader, a tribal leader, a spiritual leader, a soul that has been devoted to helping others. She has developed the capacity to listen to other people's needs, and to know what their core truth is. She has also had positions within her community through which she would synthesize various ideas and communicate them to the group. She has also been a spokesperson for her people. All this is indicated by the sn in Libra in the 11th, ruled and sextiled by Venus in Leo in the 9th. Thus the way she has come to listen and hear her own needs has been through feeling herself to be special, and to have an important message to communicate that relates to supporting her community/way of life that is innately different than the status quo.
The trauma came from the projections of other people as to the nature of who she, and her people are. This has lead to a loss of her culture, and thus the feeling of having lost her sense of worth (venus in leo in the 9th squaring pluto in scorpio in the 12th). her values have been raped- which included her natural, inclusive spirituality/philosophy- and she was in the end left powerless- very small and vulnerable- when it came to the traumas that took place.
This has lead to a very impassioned sense of purpose- whereby she has sought to help as many people as she can. We see that she was highly passionate about her social purpose. She has devoted herself to it- However, she lacked the discrimination (12th house) as to who to help and who not to help. There has been a need for her to learn how to adjust her desire to serve with a truly objective ear for other people that allowed her to naturally discern who to help and who not to help- and when (inconjunct libra in the 11th house).
Her core pattern was one of dissociation- in which she would tune into the needs of others, the needs of the community and devote herself to fulfilling it by playing an important social role. All the while, undressed anger and personal loss would ensue within her. This in effect made her emotionally unavailable on a human being to her partners/her friends.
I can envision that she has attracted to herself two kinds of partners. The first kind being those who sought to undermine her natural wisdom of people's innate individuality- her natural knowledge of psychology and human needs. These would be people that were highly egocentric and obsessed with their own ideas. She would naturally listen and seek to understand these point of views as best as she could.
The other kind of partner would be the one who had no answers and would become dependent on her for guidance. Both relationship situations create the same dynamic: one in which she is adjusting completely to fit the needs of the other person. The underlying motivation behind that is her need to be needed (libra south node) linked with a desire to merge with an ultimate good (inconjunct 12th house). She would put way too much energy into the wrong people.
There's more that I want to go into about just this first part- but I want to make sure I'm on the right track before I go too far. Thank you so much!
Hi Ari,
"Prior to this life, there have been great trauma that lead to complete loss of self/confusion around who she is, and what her purpose was. The nature of this Trauma has to do with communities that she was a part of- these communities in particular were subject to immense racial and religious persecution (sn in 11th, ruler in 9th- squaring pluto in 12th)."
**************************************************************************
There has been great trauma, yes, but that has not correlated with a complet loss of self/confusion around who she has been/is. These types of traumas have lead to the ongoing questions deep within her Soul as to WHY these traumas have occurred: the reasons for them. And this is at the heart of her own ongoing evolutionary journey relative to the nature and difference between man made laws/ beliefs, and the 'realities' they create, and that which is natural, Natural Laws, created by the Creator, the realities that this creates. This has all served her Soul purpose in understanding the stark differences between the two. So it's not a matter of her being confused about who she is, has been, as it has been to coming to terms of how and why peoples, and herself, who have tried to live in natural ways become dominated and destroyed by those who do not. This is very consistent with her evolutionary background: coming through the 2nd Stage individuated in which she has desired to rebel against all the artificial/ consensus held beliefs that have been generated by humans: the S.Node in the 11th, ruler in the 9th in Leo, square the Pluto in Scorpio in the 12th. This is of course compounded by the ruler of her N.Node being in Gemini in the 7th and inconjunct her Pluto in the 12th, and the N.Node itself inconjunct that Pluto. These symbols correlate to a Soul who has purposefully chosen to be born into groups of people who have been persecuted by larger forces that they could not control: the double inconjucts to that Pluto in Scorpio in the 12th, and, again, that Pluto forming a square to her Venus in Leo in the 9th, the ruler of her S.Node. So rather having a sense of personal confusion about all this it is more about a Soul who ends up with their fist against the sky, pumping up and down, 'why, why is this happening'. And the anger that comes from the fundamental injustice, 7th House Mars inconjuncting her Pluto in Scorpio in the 12th, the S.Node in Libra.
**************************************************************************
"Her core pattern was one of dissociation- in which she would tune into the needs of others, the needs of the community and devote herself to fulfilling it by playing an important social role. All the while, undressed anger and personal loss would ensue within her. This in effect made her emotionally unavailable on a human being to her partners/her friends."
**************************************************************************
There would indeed be cycles of emotional detachment leading to be unavailable to her partners. But there would also be cycles in which she would be totally emotionally available depending on the nature of circumstances at any given moment. Moments in which she could 'let her guard' down. This is a reflection of her Venus in Leo sextiling her Mars in Gemini in the 7th, trining her N.Node in the 5th, and of course it's square to Pluto in Scorpio in the 12th.
**************************************************************************
"I can envision that she has attracted to herself two kinds of partners. The first kind being those who sought to undermine her natural wisdom of people's innate individuality- her natural knowledge of psychology and human needs. These would be people that were highly egocentric and obsessed with their own ideas. She would naturally listen and seek to understand these point of views as best as she could."
*****************************************************************************
Yes, and this would also include her evolved knowledge, coming through the 2nd Stage individuated, of how grouping of people work together: of how each person within the Whole is necessary to that whole. Thus, she would have a very keen intuition of how each individual fit into a group, for the benefit of that group. And, of course, at times the ego's of certain others would attempt to conflict with her relative to their own egocentric sense of self importance.
***************************************************************************
Very good start Ari ..........................
Rad
(http://i417.photobucket.com/albums/pp255/arimoshe/Hollandpracticechart.jpg)
Thank you Rad,
I've been writing and writing- but the inconjuncts still don't make sense to me. So I'm going to just focus on the Pluto sn relationship first, then add the ruler and other aspects once I understand this...
First, is a semi sextile and inconjunct the thing- however the semi sextile only referring to the 30 degree elongation?
Second- I don't know if I'm interpreting this accurately:
In Pluto 1, pg 261, JWG writes about the semi sextile that involves Pluto, "The emergence or formation of a conscious and egocentric identification with the new evolutionary purpose or cycle. Random action narrows as the individual begins to sense specific directions or experiences that will allow realization or discovery of what the new evolutionary purpose or cycle is about."
She has Pluto semi sextile the sn. That indicates a couple things.
The familiarity, on an egocentric level (sn) that the soul has established with it's evolutionary intention is still relatively new. Her soul has thus created an identity that has engaged in many different projects and experiences for itself within her community/social causes and relationships (sn in Libra in 11th)- in order to find the right path/purpose for her to completely devote herself to (Pluto in the 12th).
The other thing that it indicates to me, I think, is that it implies a relationship that is yet unrefined. There has been frustration for this soul as the intent to devote herself to a transcendent cause has been constantly met by crisis (semi sextile?) in which she is time and time again disempowered by the powers that be. This has created a great tension whereby has often dissociated and checked out whenever she has been faced with any threat from someone who doesn't understand who she is. A paranoia that leaves her, for a time being, almost catatonic.
Thank you
Hi Ari,
"First, is a semi sextile and inconjunct the thing- however the semi sextile only referring to the 30 degree elongation?"
***********************************************************************
No, they are not the same thing. In JWG's second Pluto book there is a complete discription of the aspects and the phases they take place within. Please refer to this so that you more fully understand all aspects in the CONTEXT OF THE PHASES they take place within.
****************************************************************************
"Second- I don't know if I'm interpreting this accurately:
In Pluto 1, pg 261, JWG writes about the semi sextile that involves Pluto, "The emergence or formation of a conscious and egocentric identification with the new evolutionary purpose or cycle. Random action narrows as the individual begins to sense specific directions or experiences that will allow realization or discovery of what the new evolutionary purpose or cycle is about.
She has Pluto semi sextile the sn. That indicates a couple things.
The familiarity, on an egocentric level (sn) that the soul has established with it's evolutionary intention is still relatively new. Her soul has thus created an identity that has engaged in many different projects and experiences for itself within her community/social causes and relationships (sn in Libra in 11th)- in order to find the right path/purpose for her to completely devote herself to (Pluto in the 12th)."
***************************************************************************
Yes, it is a semi-sexitle to her Pluto, yet, at the same time, Venus, the ruler of that Node, is in a last quarter square to that Pluto, the N.Node is in a waning inconjunct to her Pluto, and Mars, the ruler of that Node is in a waning inconjunct to her Pluto, and the rulers of both Nodes are in a Crecent Phase to one another. All of this correlates to many lives already lived relative to the core intentions of her Soul symbolized in the total paradigm.
****************************************************************************
"The other thing that it indicates to me, I think, is that it implies a relationship that is yet unrefined. There has been frustration for this soul as the intent to devote herself to a transcendent cause has been constantly met by crisis (semi sextile?) in which she is time and time again disempowered by the powers that be. This has created a great tension whereby has often dissociated and checked out whenever she has been faced with any threat from someone who doesn't understand who she is. A paranoia that leaves her, for a time being, almost catatonic."
*************************************************************************
The 'transcendent' cause has been rooted in the archetype of JUSTICE for people in general, and as individuals. This is the meaning of the S.Node in Libra, the ruler of her N.Node in the 7th House. And justice here correlates to what is NATURALLY RIGHT AND WRONG relative to the Natural Laws created by God: this is seen via her S.Node ruler in the 9th House in Leo which, of course, is also sextiling the ruler of her N.Node in the 7th. The crisis's result when violations to those Natural Laws occur, and become the basis of her Soul sense of being disillusioned when those Natural Laws are violated. The very essence of her Soul's journey symbolized in the paradigm is all revovling around BELIEFS and ways of understanding the nature of Creation itself. And, yes, there have already been many lifetimes in which she and the group of people that she has belonged too have been crushed by 'the powers that be'. And, yes, there have been times in which this has left her in an almost catatonic like state. And, yet, relative to her Soul intentions this has been necessary in order to understand the core intentions of her Soul: to come to terms with, and to understand, the difference between man made beliefs, and the consequences of that, versus the Natural Laws set in motion by the Creator, and how people who live in accordance with those laws, then live and are are orientated to one another.
Rad
Rad,
Checking in. I plan to finish the rereads and hope to post in a few days. This time I'll be reading the previous posts first and building off of everything I know at that point.
Blessings,
Bradley
Hello Rad, All,
I had mentioned before that I was going to work on this practice chart -- and I wanted to apologize for not being able to do so.
I have been going through a major upheaval & transition with the way I use my time --and I am not yet clear on what is occurring & why I cannot seem to structure my time well (perhaps transiting Uranus in Pisces in my first house with Natal Saturn, and/or transiting Saturn in H8 Libra ...hmmm ?). This has been an issue my entire life, but seems, at this time, it is the most intense ever, & SO IN MY FACE!
Basically, I am sorry I have not been able to do this chart at this time after saying I would.
Please accept my apologies.
In the future, I will not say I can join in with practice charts unless I am sure I can fufill it.
Thanks for your patience and understanding.
Lovingly,
Dhyana
This is a soul who comes into this life from series of lifetimes in which she has asked "˜why, why, why?' in order to reach a meaning of life that transcends all man made religions and the limits of other people's egocentric opinions and perspectives. (pluto scorpio 12th) This has been a very strong desire, and at times obsessive and compulsive in finding the deeper/transcendent meaning of existence. Merging with the abyss of the unknown to come back with pearls of ultimate truth. Based on just leaving the middle individuated evolutionary stage, this soul has begun to realized these ultimate truths through the lens of a dissolving individualized perspective. In the beginning of the second stage of individuated this search for ultimate meaning was experienced in the cyclic dissolving of lenses of perception that were actually rooted in the influence of consensus paradigms. Though this process, she realized gradually, at a soul level, who she was as an individual - what the ultimate meaning of life was to herself as an individual. (just evol. stage and pluto)
Now that her soul has evolved through the mid individuated stage, she knows the ultimate meaning of who she was as an individual....that is the past. For her evolution to progress, she will grow and evolve her individual perspective of the ultimate meaning of existence though experiences of establishing a role in her society that is in line with these self realized core values. (above relative to ppp)
How has she reached the ultimate truth of who she is as an individual? By repeatedly casting off and freeing herself from all the various opinions, perspectives and viewpoints which she realized were not ultimate truth, and therefor were realized to be limiting, inhibiting inner freedom. (sn libra 11th) How did she realize that something was not coming from a pure source that transcended space and time? She has formed relationships over many lifetimes with individuals who were proudly crusading their versions of reality-individuals who taught based on beliefs which were willfully expressed.(sn ruler venus leo 9th) There were a wide variety of these types of "˜relationships' over so many lifetimes. Putting relationships in quotes because the definition of relationship here is not simply in the context of friend, rather both extremes of friend and foe were experienced. (sn libra & ruler square pluto, and mars gemini 7th inconjunct pluto) For example, in one case she would have been in a fringe group which existed outside the cultural norm of beliefs and "˜way of life'; in this group she became extremely close(pluto-venus) to a charismatic leader who was very creative in the ways that they expressed the beliefs of the subgroup.(venus leo 9th) She would have had inner crisis in belief triggered by this relationship as she realized that even in her own small circle there existed an element within their paradigm that simply did not resonate at a core level as "˜ultimate truth', or whatever words she would have had for the deeper meaning to life(not in an exclusively spiritual sense of course-individuated) In reaction to this, she would have had intense confrontation-philosophical argument of sorts(venus pluto square). At certain times, this leader would project betrayal. She would detach and liberate from these relationships(sn libra 11), and at other times even feel like an outcast/outsider of the group that was on the outside already. She would experience great crisis in belief(venus 9th waning square pluto) also because simultaneously she would have still had casual relationships with individuals within the "˜other' class/group/culture of peoples which her small group would have removed itself from. Yet, the individuals that she had casual acquaintances with in the consensus group revealed the hypocritical beliefs that were proudly dawned by both sides of reality being represented - that is the consensus majority and the leaders of the rebel subculture were both discovered to have flaws in there philosophy and approach to life(mars gemini 7th trine sn relative to venus pluto).
IN another example, as discussed by Rad previous, we would also know that this signature would represent her own group needing to liberate from the current "˜ruling class' in power. This crisis in belief could have been triggered, for example, as a group deciding to step outside the norm of the practiced consensus religion. In many cultures even today sadly, the cost of a woman to not obey the decrees given power and willfully followed by the religious leaders of the time is high, even risking ones life. Hence, the natural story-line of a group exodus experience unfolds here. This leads into the many new relationships, the increased exposure of many different viewpoints and perspectives and life philosophies and religions and paradigms as she alone or with a group had traveled from there homeland. Relative to the south node being in libra in the 11th, the actual detaching from the culture of birth would have been at times quite extreme. This relative to the venus in leo in the 9th, at times she herself, in her inner relationship to herself, would place the newfound philosophy and beliefs at the the top of the pyramid. Suddenly, in this extreme way, everything else is shed away, including the relationships to others who believed in the old way. This extreme action may not have even been out of judgement toward the other way, rather it is simply her placing her newfound beliefs that suddenly resonate so much more as the number one priority. So, then she would surround herself with many new peoples who also believe this way. Yet(venus square pluto) this action triggers an inner crisis of belief - ultimately, it doesn't make sense to her to do this.
And then once again she reaches the point of realizing another dimension of existence which the beliefs she was so proud of no longer "˜gel' with the new realizations. And so on this cycle would have been going on for some many lifetimes now. Sometimes it is her and her own inner relationship to the beliefs she holds, other times it is a subgroup in relation to the ruling religious elite, other times it was tension caused by her relationship to one individual within her own circle, etc.
Another piece to hold in this signature is the fact that venus, ruler of south node trines the north node and mars as ruler of the north node is also sextile the north node. So, based on this, we know that she has made efforts toward realizing the pluto polarity point - her current life's evolutionary path. Yet, as has been discussed previous, pluto is indeed in a waning inconjunct to both mars and the north node. This means that mars and the north node are both in a waxing semi-sextile to the pluto polarity point. In laypersons terms, What is this crisis that she faced in past lives as she just started to realize the pluto polarity point? First, look at this tension with leo 9th to the pluto scorpio 12th: how does this "˜I WILL' jive with the aligning one's existence with transcendent meaning? For this soul specifically, this in combination with the north node in aries 5th inconjunct pluto scorpio 12th, she is having a crisis of going beyond realizing a social purpose resonate with her core values(ppp) because it is a series of repeated lessons of adjusting what she can and can not do within the relative culture. She realizes and embraces a creative purpose, she has the courage to initiate this purpose into her life(nn aries 5th) such that it will serve a useful, meaningful, and helpful function in community(relative to ppp taurus 6th)....BUT then she has this crisis - "so and so" is asking her to do this(mars gemini 7th), but "˜this' is just not in the vision of her purpose; the tasks she discovers that go along with the work do not actually resonate with her core values nor are in line with the purpose she is having the guts to initiate(waxing semi-sextile of mars and nn to ppp) So, she learns to narrow the course of action that was envisioned with her newfound purpose.(waxing semi-sextile mars/nn to ppp) Major "˜wet blanket' effect here: she experienced this crisis on the social level of what she can and can not do, then sees she is going to need to narrow the scope of her vision and purpose, yet to narrow this triggers a huge inner crisis because the work would then not be so liberating, not an authentic expression of herself, and not seemingly in line with the ultimate meaning by which she desires to live her life. "How can I submerge herself into such an experience?" she asks herself. So, does she learn the lessons of social humility and continue on with the work? (pluto inconjunct waning to mars and nn) Or, is there much more security in falling back to the south node libra 11th - this, relative to ppp is waxing inconjunct, so we see that the extreme response of detaching from, liberating from the relationships thru which she discovered she need to narrow her scope and vision( mars gemini 7th) ---that is to say when she did react to such experiences in this librian 11th house fashion, she then experienced the personal humility lesson of "˜giving up' the job she started. This also carries potential for guilt and self masochistic response ( sn waxing inconjunct to ppp).
All of her many relationships (venus leo 9th and mars gemini 7th) have allowed her to discover and learn to intuit her own purpose; have assisted her in ideas in how she can begin the purpose she felt called to ( mars gemini 7th sextile nn aries 5th). Her exposure to so many peoples in many lands have brought her great diversity of life paths, potentials, perspectives and approaches. ( venus leo 9th as sn ruler libra 11 in trine to nn) So, we know that soo so much of her past has set up her current life such that there is, on one hand, "˜the sky's the limit' type of approach to the potentialities of manifesting and beginning her life's purpose. Yet, on the other hand, she also carries, at a conscious and subconscious level, the memories of this life and other lives in which her "˜plans were foiled' - which she may know is actually a projected frustration. Or the "˜wind was taken out of her sails' syndrome in which the crisis of actually staying in a specific social function, to be rooted in one simple serving job ( ppp taurus 6th) is one of the big trigger of crisis in this life. As stated earlier, it is responded to as limiting (taurus) to one who identifies with so much freedom. Once she sees this role/purpose as limiting, she can not picture herself submersed in this type of work.(pluto scorpio 12/ppp) It, the work, no longer has deep meaning to her.
The rest of the chart would reveal whether this dynamic would be lessened or intensified. Swinging back to the detach and caste off (sn) from the "˜limiting relationships' in order to find work of deeper meaning, we see this momentum between 12th/11th and 5th/6th. That is to say, she needs, in order to progress evolutionary, to initiate her own creative purpose, to take all the so many ideas she has collected (sn libra 11) and act on them. Relative to venus leo 9th, finding one belief/philosophy which is "˜the one' above all would only help the creative actualization of her new purpose, but because that venus is square to pluto scorpio 12 which is in that waning inconjunct to the nn aries 5th, her own sense of inflated self importance in believing in her "˜own' purpose triggers this crisis in what to believe - how to approach this same purpose with a sense of social humility is what the lesson ends up being.
Evolutionary Path and Journey in this life:
We do know that her father will play an important role in this lifetime as someone who will truly support her own self discovery of her life path/purpose.(nn aries 5th) We would see that, growing up, through her father's friends she will get exposure to many different individuals and lifestyles.(nn ruler mars gemini 7th) We also know that her father would certainly be supportive of the freedom she needs to "˜find herself'(sn aries 5th-ruler in 7th trine sn libra 11th) He would be accepting and supportive of her "˜different' friends and to others acting as role models and mentors to her. (nn trine sn ruler venus 9th) Basically, he would not be threatened by others imparting knowledge, different viewpoints to her. He would know that she would "˜think for herself' and would recognize the pattern within her of wanting to learn from others ways of living but also having an inner struggle with the hypocrisy that comes out of over inflated ego and self righteous individuals.
Prior to her first Saturn return, she would naturally not be ready to really narrow down the scope of work focus. She needs to get all the traveling and exposure to other ways out of her system, so to speak. Part of this would be the resolving of past life relationship karma. The people whom she meets along her journeys would often be key individuals who she way in relationship to in her previous lives. These people, again would be triggers of her "˜crisis in belief'. There is an immediate attraction to these karmic connections - a very strong pull to connect with the person as they would be very familiar. She would naturally want to know why their meeting evokes such strong feelings inside her. Part of her would desire to discover more about this connection - natural curiousity instinct, while part of herself would remain detached. Some of these connections will trigger very strong repulsion inside her. Some of this will be coming from her disgust with the arrogance and pride that the other has in "˜their way' - she knows that their way is not the only way. In fact, it becomes more and more obvious to her that this high minded, self inflated type is just plain wrong because of the fact they do put themselves on top.
Not all these past karmic relationships would be of this nature of course. Some of these connections would be instant feelings of immense love for a "˜complete stranger'. It becomes obvious that they share a common bond. These types of attractions are to individuals that played key roles in her karmic past to help her begin to self actualize and discover her own creative powers and talents.(sn ruler venus leo 9th trine nn aries 5th) In some of these scenarios, we would see the venus square pluto play out in a different type of way - where in the silence of the morning the deeper sensing of what she is to do next with her life would bring the conscious realization that this relationship will only be temporary in her life. The winds of change will blow and she knows deep within it will be time to move on and they will be distant friends in the future, yet forever close at heart. Kindred spirits rejoined for a brief spell.
As she passes her first Saturn return, the universe will send her messages that it is now time to begin to narrow the scope of her relationships and projects(semi-sextile of nn and mars to ppp) As stated earlier, this will be one of the dynamics of her life crises. Also, if we look at the symbols here, besides the needed adjustments and potentially percieved "˜loss of freedom' by making some of these bigger career choices, she also has an internal struggle with the selfishness in which she is called to have - by this, I mean that the aries/leo archetypes combined are so self centered and self focused, where she is comfortable being more detached and listening and conseling. It is no longer about going with the flow, she is being called to really engage her life path and dive in, initiate and get things moving. Pluto, place of unconscious security, inconjunct to this and in scorpio, triggers crisis. She is more comfortabel merging into the power of groups, philosophy. Here, to proceed on her evolutionary path, she needs to be self centered, to focus attention on herself, what she is doing. Sitting and chatting over tea is not this path, unless the conversations therein bring discoveries of ways that other people will assist her to manifest her denstiny.
I have a question: What is this dynamic that will go on inside her as she has experiences of feeling "˜social humiliating' situations in which she falls back to detaching from a service which she initially commits to?
The aries aspect here reveals she is likely to jump into a situation and not fully realize the ultimate meaning of the work experience. We know she will at least have some experiences of this "˜pulling out of commitment'. Inside she would know that it was for the right reasons, yet with this venus square pluto, there is sure to be tension in her relationships and certain others would likely have strong individual perspectives of her choices and try to influence her. This may come from their own attachment and not wanting to see her leave the work. Also, the fact that they may sense her own inner conflict deep within around what to really believe.
So, the narrowing process and rooting into a service/work function in her life will prove to bring crisis, but why? She is learning, thru this (evolutionary necessity) of what she ultimately can and can not do. So, she is learning to intuitively make the needed choices with necessary discrimination. As she learns this, she will also find herself settling into this "˜life work'. The sybolism here makes me think of a production potter.
I'm trying to expand this archetype to other roles....hmmm
Rad,
I did read all of Gonzalo's and Ari Moshe's posts and your reply's, spent a lot of time with 8th/scorpio and pisces/12 chapters. I did not yet fully reread the other chapters in their entirety.
I really wanted to get out a start on this and know that there is still so much that can be expanded upon.
Greatly appreciate all your feedback.
One question I did have that came up was this:
Knowing that we are talking about a woman and knowing that, so far in the chart there is not any major signifiers of recent gender switching, would it be true that the many recent lives that are relevant to this life were lived as a woman?
thanks,
Bradley
Hi Bradley,
You have done an very, very good job with this paradigm so far. One thing to remember or know is that her desire of lifetimes is to know and understand all that is Natural, natural laws, versus man made constructions that are the antithesis of Natural Laws. This then becomes the basis of rebelling against any system or person who represent 'beliefs' that are not in harmony with those Natural Laws.
**************************************************************************
"I have a question: What is this dynamic that will go on inside her as she has experiences of feeling "˜social humiliating' situations in which she falls back to detaching from a service which she initially commits to?"
***************************************************************************
It is the dynamic of feeling to 'limited' by any given service or role that she has committed too ..
*************************************************************************
"As she learns this, she will also find herself settling into this "˜life work'. The sybolism here makes me think of a production potter.
I'm trying to expand this archetype to other roles....hmmm"
**************************************************************************
No, not at all. It would be much more in alignment with working with whole group of people who were being treated as minorities by the dominate culture of birth. This could have many, many different possible manifestations. She would naturally orientate to any group of people whose 'natural rights', the rights born of the simple fact of being humans like all humans, were being violated by some other group of people who were violating those rights of such groups of people. Another possible manifestation would be defending the planet itself by way of environmental laws.
*****************************************************************************
"One question I did have that came up was this: Knowing that we are talking about a woman and knowing that, so far in the chart there is not any major signifiers of recent gender switching, would it be true that the many recent lives that are relevant to this life were lived as a woman"
****************************************************************************
Yes, because this correlates with her Soul's ongoing experience of violations against all that is Natural, Natural Laws. Thus, being born as a women in male dominated times, the nature of the patriarchy, correlates with her Soul's desired experience in order to work to correcting these violations to all that is natural.
****************************************************************************
Really good work Bradley. Bravo ...............
Rad
Hi Rad,
I have not been following this thread. I've been in a crisis ever since hearing someone say that Yogananda did not encourage astrology. This along with my chronic concern that maybe I do more harm than good with astrology stopped me. But I know from my own experience that astrology has helped me tremendously & I have grown thanks to this mb community. I still have fears about harming others but I think that has to do with rejecting a gift rather than embracing it. I also think Yogananda understood (understands) that there are different paths to the truth...
Anyway, I`d like to try my hand at this practice chart but I`d like to do it without reading through what others have written - see what I come up w/ on my own then take it from there. I think this would be the best way for me to learn. Would this be ok with you? I will probably not get to it til the weekend.
Ellen
Hi Ellen,
First both Yogananda and his guru Yukteswar said that any discipline can be abused and practiced by those unqualified to do so. Not just astrology. The warning or negative comments about astrology by them both were stated from that perspective. I would encourage you to read in Autobiography of a Yogi the chapter in that book called 'Outwitting The Stars'. There you will read the total context of these remarks, as well as other remarks about astrology. The quote from Yukteswar is indeed the bottom line in all of this. Here is that quote:
"A child is born on that day and at that hour when the celestial rays are in mathematical harmony with his individual karma. His horoscope is a challenging portrait revealing his unalterable past and it's probable future results. But the natal chart can be rightly interpreted only by men of intuitive wisdom. These are few".
The very nature of Evolutionary Astrology comes from Yukteswar himself according to JWG. The entire paradigm of EA was given to him in a dream he had one night. All of it. JWG had been a disciple of the great Ramakrishna and even lived in his monasteries. One night he had a dream in which both Yogananda and Ramakrishna appeared to him. Ramakrishna pointed to Yogananda and told JWG to follow him now. Upon waking JWG went out and bought Yogananda's Autobiography Of A Yogi and read it at once. He then committed his Soul to God through his new guru Yogananda. Within two weeks of this he then received this dream from Yukteswar, who was a 'galatic' astrologer among other things, the dream that is now called Evolutionary Astrology. From that moment forwards JWG began teaching EA. And that teaching has reached Souls throughout the world. And it continues to do so.
As for you desire to try to do these practice charts again please feel free to do so. On the other hand I feel it would be benefical for you to in fact read through what has already been presented about the current paradigm that we are working with. The reason of course is that you are brand new to this work. Thus, learning about the nature of this paradigm will take time of course. And part of that learning can be accomplished by reading through what already has been presented so that we don't have to cover the same ground again. But, in the end, it's up to you. If you want to try analyzing this paradigm without reading through what has already been presented then that's also fine with me.
Rad
Hi Rad,
Thank you very much for your reply. I posted on a new thread a question I had in response to Sri Yukteswar's quote.
I'll do the chart. Check what others have contributed. Then modify. Then post. This will take longer. For my learning process, it feels essential. If I don't post b4 the group moves on, that will be ok. I can start fresh with a new chart, but will still have learned through the process.
Thank you so much for this thread/opportunity and your instruction. It is truly a gift to those of us learning. And I am truly appreciative.
Peace,
Ellen
Rad,
Letting your response soak in, it is now so very clear that she would be involved with groups of people with the work she pioneers. (nn ruler mars gemini 7th trine sn libra 11)
In fact, this very trine coupled with the sextile trines of the sn ruler to the north node and mars reveal that her capacity to work with groups of people would be a fruition condition of her past coming forward into this life's work. Is this right?
Part of her crisis in belief would be being born once again into a patriarchal culture that is socially imprinting and conditioning her early life development. So that, she would reach crisis as she matures until she reprograms and develops her own healthy sense of pride and passion surrounding her natural beliefs - without the support of a majority culture and without fully embracing a specific paradigm(evolutionary stage).
She would have many friends and be very social by her very nature. She would naturally be curious about people and their different perspectives, opinions, and life experiences and appreciate learning from that. If fact, the discovery via learning through others (nn ruler mars gemini 7th) is initiated with ease as she naturally identifies with this humanitarian and broader perspective of life.(sn libra 11). So, very often we see her talking, in conversations, discussions - her version of "˜talking shop' is about the imbalances of justice in the world, the inequalities that individuals and groups are facing, past, present and future. Naturally, she would be visionary in regards to her forward thinking and ideas around solving the real issues(pluto scorpio) going on with peoples and group relationships in societies and cultures.(sn libra 11) Also, as suggested earlier, she has a instinctual desire to discover more through other people - hence she is always learning more - fueling more ideas and perspectives on how to bring these injustices into balance (again 11 trine 7). In the last post I had said: " Sitting and chatting over tea is not this path, unless the conversations therein bring discoveries of ways that other people will assist her to manifest her denstiny." This was referring to her taking all these ideas and having the courage to run with it- set the vision in motion. I wanted to revisit this here because as I thought and felt this out more, I said to myself/heard within: "˜There is nothing wrong with her sitting and having tea and chatting, that is great. What I was getting at is the difference of being detached about all the injustice in the world vs. getting fired up and passionate about it and doing something. She needs, for the evolution of her soul to progress, to do something with all this deep knowing she has accumulated over so many lifetimes.
Rad, hearing your comment: "Yes, because this correlates with her Soul's ongoing experience of violations against all that is Natural, Natural Laws. Thus, being born as a women in male dominated times, the nature of the patriarchy, correlates with her Soul's desired experience in order to work to correcting these violations to all that is natural. " this makes so much sense now. It is, for me, again one of those leaps of knowing that I'm learning to take the more I embrace and trust EA taught here. Of course, we are talking about a woman, living as a woman many lifetimes ON PLANET EARTH....and, on this planet the patriarchal dominance in cultures all over the world is exactly what has been going on over that last thousands of years. So, of course, the inequality of women in any culture would reveal itself to her...and quite naturally - pluto scorpio 12 - wanting to know why - naturally being bold enough and courageous enough to ask those questions of others - mars gemini 7th. This life and other lives(trine sn) There is no lack of her discovering and knowing the truth of what she discovers. Again, we go back to that north node aries in the 5th - and this relative to the ppp taurus 6th- again, meaning to initiate one of her many passionate causes and then meticuluously and painstakingly follow it though, to remain in service to it, to become it's foundation and rock from which it can grow and thrive - this is where her evolution lies.
I want to take a step over to the pluto in the 12th again. She is going to need to have the down time, "˜me time', alone time, reflection time.
So, there is the diving right into the passion thing, yet to also keep in mind and remember to maintain, even to work into the schedule(ppp), the necessary quite time.
Rad, in your email reading you sent to me, you shared this concept of a soul(in this case "˜mine') being weary from lifetimes of so much "˜going on'. Sitting with the assignment again, I began to see this to be true for her as well. Would you say this to be true? As a soul weary with lifetimes of intense encounters with the injustices of life in the patriarchal era on planet earth, she would naturally have to work to stay motivated. There is effort needed to initiate her purpose in this life and it would feel like it is going to be a lot of work...and will be.
Also, all this makes me consider part of her own "˜crisis in belief' is going to connect back to the fact that she is just entering the late individuated stage. Pluto scorpio 12th and it's square to venus reveals that her deeper soul questions have been related to all human attempts to "˜capture' with a teaching, method, doctrine, and/or religion something that somehow explains and integrates the divine, spiritual, and transcendent dimensions of this reality. And yet, she is not yet at an evolutionary stage where she would be fully embracing one specific spiritual path. (the venus pluto square) It feels like that is the challenge, part of it, that she will have all through this life-that is never having one "˜way' which she can simply embrace as her path. Is this true?
I still desired to explore intimate relationships and more dynamics of the pluto 12th scorpio with this signature. Also, do you have suggestions in continuing?
I'll wait to see how I'm proceeded with this.
Many thanks,
Bradley
Hi Bradley,
"Rad, in your email reading you sent to me, you shared this concept of a soul(in this case "˜mine') being weary from lifetimes of so much "˜going on'. Sitting with the assignment again, I began to see this to be true for her as well. Would you say this to be true? As a soul weary with lifetimes of intense encounters with the injustices of life in the patriarchal era on planet earth, she would naturally have to work to stay motivated. There is effort needed to initiate her purpose in this life and it would feel like it is going to be a lot of work...and will be."
****************************************************************************
Yes, this is very true. Indeed it is on ongoing lesson of many lifetimes that is carried into this one. The lesson is one of balance between all the various external activities of her life, with necessary down time. This seen of course by her S.Node in Libra with it's ruler Venus square her Pluto. It is seen with her Mars in the 7th House in Gemini inconjunct her Pluto in Scorpio in the 12th. When this necessary balance does not occur then the extremes of behavior, alternating between intense almost non-stop external activities with total collapse as a reaction to that, will manifest a various physical problems associated with the adrenals, central nervous system, the sciatic nerves, kidneys and urinary tract, and entire digestive tract starting with the pancreas will occur. And that would occur in order to enforce the necessary down time.
**************************************************************************
"Also, all this makes me consider part of her own "˜crisis in belief' is going to connect back to the fact that she is just entering the late individuated stage. Pluto scorpio 12th and it's square to venus reveals that her deeper soul questions have been related to all human attempts to "˜capture' with a teaching, method, doctrine, and/or religion something that somehow explains and integrates the divine, spiritual, and transcendent dimensions of this reality. And yet, she is not yet at an evolutionary stage where she would be fully embracing one specific spiritual path. (the venus pluto square) It feels like that is the challenge, part of it, that she will have all through this life-that is never having one "˜way' which she can simply embrace as her path. Is this true"
****************************************************************************
The essence of this crisis of belief is her Soul's desire not to 'believe' anything. Her Soul desires direct perception or experience of anything including all things 'transcendent or spiritual'. This is of course her Venus in the 9th, ruler of her S.Node, in Leo and square her Pluto in Scorpio in the 12th. This correlates to a 'prove it to me' nature in every way. So it's the crisis of belief versus direct knowing of anything. The difference between 'belief' and actual knowledge. The one constant for her will be Nature itself: being in and within Nature. She would have spent many prior lives living in Nature in a variety of ways, with a variety of groups, cultures, or tribes who lived in balance with Nature. As a result she would have learned about the ways of Nature because having life itself dependent on living in balance with Nature. So this will be her constant for it directly correlates with actual experience over many lifetimes: actual knowledge.
Great work Bradley ...................
Rad
Hi Rad,
Just letting you know that I am in the process of doing the present practice chart, but since I have a spasm in my neck, I need to take it slowly...so I calculate I'd need at least another week to present the reading to you. I hope this is okay. Many thanks.
Hi Linda,
Yes, of course, it's ok .................
Rad
At this evolutionary juncture, this soul is ready to participate WITHIN society with a purpose and intent on making tangible change in the world. In the past. it has been important for her to liberate from all conditions that sought to impose upon her any religious, racial, social identification and persecution- South node in 11th ruled by venus in 9th squaring Pluto in 12th. This has manifested as joining forces with other individuals, being a part of a community who all sought to rebel from the status quo and establish for themself a way of living that is based on a natural understanding of human nature, of relationships, and more philosophically- natural law.
Libra south node ruled by Venus in the 9th house in Leo implies that she has had the intent to creatively actualize within these communities. She has known herself to be special, and to have a special role to play. This expressed as her capacity to communicate- very clearly and intelligently (venus sextile sn in 11th, sextile mars in Gemini in 7th) and with confidence in the power of her own voice/purpose (venus
trine nn, ruler of nn Mars in Gemini), and with a focused intensity to get to the underlying core truths behind WHY things are the way they are (squaring Pluto- implying an intention for her soul to develop a
value system that penetrates into the core of "why"), as well as her capacity to absorb other point of views, incorporate lots of intellectual material, discourse with other people about lots of diffieret material etc. (Mars in Gemini in the 7th, Trine sn in Libra in the 11th).
At this evolutionary stage, traditional gender roles are unimportant to her. With the nn in Aries in the 5th house, and it's ruler in Mars in the 7th house- the cardinal archetypes are strongly emphasized.
She is a warrior type person and will naturally attract into her life men and women who are also very intellectually active, well informed, and socially impassioned.
Prior to this life, her soul's underly reason for incarnating has been to completely merge it's ego-centric barriers with the collective. This has given rise to a natural passion to do good- to save the world, to be of service. Thus she has sought a transcendent purpose to devote herself to. She has not only faced trauma time and time again- which has resulted in the loss of her personal relationships, the nature of which were against the norm of the status quo (libra in the 12th) but also entire communities- which as mentioned above were often linked to racial, social persecution (ruled by venus in the 9th). Her soul is a queen warrior. She knows herself to be special and knows that she and all other humans only deserve to be treated with the greatest respect. The Venus square to Pluto emphasizes that she has been challenged with understanding "why" she and her community has been raped. Why such things happen in the world. And at a core level she desires to actualize her special purpose as a community/tribal leader/teacher and speak her mind, speak her heart, inspire others.
Pluto is the only planet in this chart that is aspected in a challenging, cataclysmic kind of way by the other planets. This is something worth noting. First off, it implies the nature of her evolutionary strategy-
which is evolution through adjustment (inconjuncts) and the neccesity to understand reality in a way that embraces the totality of all that she has learned on her journey thus far (last quarter square). The
nature of these adjustments are having been profoundly disillusioned by facing the actual nature of humanity (Pluto in the 12th semi sextile sn in libra in the 11th) as being oppressive and unjust- thus being thrown back upon herself time and time again as her yearning for clarity meets devestating realities. The waning inconjunct between Mars and Pluto, induces a profound degree of social awareness and maturity when it comes to understanding the core sociological and enviromental realities she is faced with (gemini)- including why people treat the enviroment, the world, each other the way they do. The lesson for her is to adjust her "notion of what is" with a grounded "awareness of what actually is". For her, this requires a very FOCUSED intent to study, accumilate and articulate the data that will explain all of this. It is a challenge because she will easily be overwhelmed with anger linked to the nature of the very dynamics she is studying/exploring becuase has has personally experineced them, along with her friends/communities many times.
However, what she comes to intellectually understand will be the key to her destiny. Her role in thie world is to focus on a specific form of service that takes into account the underlying reasins and causes for
why people have done what they have done to the world (sn in libra in the 11th, venus in 9th- sextile and trine mars in 7th whcih is inconjunct Pluto in the 12th which itself is semi sextile the sn in libra in the
11th)- and from that point of view what is FAIR what is actual justice. She will have the opportunity to play various kinds of roles. As a spokesperson, a counselor, an educator/ teacher. The aries NN in the 5th
implies a growing sense of individual purpose and focus for her life. This will create a container for her, on her own, she will figure out why these distortions exist and to help heal the world/others by communicating her developed understanding of what is natural.
She will also join forces with members of her community, and extended global community (through menas such as the internet- 11th house) to share resources and work together. Mars trine sn. She will have a very pretty facebook profile (11th house libra sn, ruler venus in Leo) with links to lots of resources and information. She would jump on the opportunity to participate in social networks via internet as much as she cans, as she would recognize that as a viable form of communication on a local and planetary level.
Her Aries nn is also a way to channel the anger. It's a gateway for evolution- it gives her a constructive form (ppp) to be of service that allows her to be in action, to be in motion- moment to moment. She is
required to become an activist- very engaged and focused on what she is able to inspire in this world. That's the nautre of the inconjncts to Pluto as I see it- her focus on learing and writing/teaching
communicating based on what she discovers via her learning have the effect of CHANNELING her anger in a constructive way.
She will naturally get into very intense heated discussions. Feeling very sensitive to power dynamics she knows how to listen objectively, yet at the same time ask the core questions that will enable her to
discern the information that her soul is wishing to figure out.
To clarify, entry into the third stage of the individuated state is marked via an inner knowing of her social purpose in the world. The nature of this purpose cannot be stopped by anyone. Once she knows that she
has a role to communicate/ teach/ be an activist- it's just a matter of getting organized and getting to work, for the rest of her life. Her sense of purpose will always be a fuel for her to persist even in the face of continued bull shit from those who are wishing to impose thier social agendas upon the enviroment. I feel realizing her purpose isn't as challenging as making the neccesary adjustments in her life in order to facilitate that purpose...
...the mars Pluto inconjunct existing within the full phase indicates the need to truly assimilate her social purpose in a balanced way such that she does not become overwhelmed with the intentions of her soul
to get a lot of work done. The planet involved being Mars really emphasizes the possibility of "overdoing it" not knowing when to stop. Her quest to find clarity can manifest as:
1. endless research, exposure, communication, networking.
2. endless activity- engaging social activity, organizing events, starting various organization etc. The ppp in Taurus in the 6th, emphasizes the need for her to take personal care, to learn adjustment so that she does not flip her lid, so to speak. Libra sn semi sextile Pluto, and the ruler of that sn venus squaring Pluto also emphasizes the need for her to consciously create silent, restful activity where she can just be with what is. At this evolutionary state, developing a yoga practice and meditation would be invaluable for her- this would allow her to engage her physical body in rigorous activity, while cleansing the over worked adrenal glands, deepening the breath, bringing more oxygen to her brain- just relaxing her overall nervous system. As I understand it, the ppp enforces that she take better care of her health. health crisis can easily ensue based on not slowing down. It should also be noted that "burning out" can be an evolutionary catalyst in and of itself- that will help the soul transition more fully into the thid stage of the individuated state. Forcing her to create the neccesary boudnaries in her life in order to constructively get on with the work her soul wishes to acheive.
Rad, you said health problems would start with the Pancreas. Would you mind explaining why? I recall the pancreas is associated with venus? Would venus squaring Pluto here imply any kind of genetic condition that exists as a neccesary evolutionary catalsyst to get her to slow down?
After I receive your feedback, I have some questions about sexuality and relationships. Thank you so much for your continued guidance. In gratitude,
Ari Moshe
Hi Ari,
"Rad, you said health problems would start with the Pancreas. Would you mind explaining why? I recall the pancreas is associated with venus? Would venus squaring Pluto here imply any kind of genetic condition that exists as a neccesary evolutionary catalsyst to get her to slow down?"
****************************************************************************
The pancreas correlates with Pluto, Scorpio, and the 8th House, among other correlations. Reflect on the function of the pancreas and this should then become crystal clear. Yes, the Venus square Pluto does correlate with a genetic condition. Any planet in the 12th, by the way, also correlates with genetic conditions. The areas in the body that I mentioned before in the post from Bradley all correlate to potential breakdown points in her genetics that would cause her to necessarily slow down.
***************************************************************************
Your analysis was spot on Ari. EXCELLENT WORK !
God Bless,
Rad
Hi Rad,
I will have to miss this practice chart assignment due to doctor's orders. I have acute inflammation in my neck which has resulted in eye strain and migraine headaches. As these practice chart assignments take a considerable amount of time in front of the computer and lots of research and reading, I think it would be best if I waited until this seemingly endless migraine headache went away and I be fitted with new glasses before I attempt a new one. I'm disappointed that I've missed this particular assignment, as I really would have loved to explore especially the SN ruler Venus and NN ruler Mars, as these are what I have in my own chart. Nevertheless, I can learn from the others in this instance. I'm definitely looking forward to doing more with you, when I feel better. Thanks so much for your time, tutorship and feedback.
Hi Linda,
So sorry to hear about the hurting neck and eyes. Sending you prayers for a quick healing. God Bless, Rad
That's so sweet of you Rad - thank you!
Hi Rad,
Pancreas:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pancreas (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pancreas)
So it seems the pancreas produces a juice that contains enzymes that serve to further break down the various protein, carbohydrates and fats into a liquid substance (chyme) which is when the extraction of nutrients begins.
All this being Pluto- enzymes, break down etc. With high, unchecked energy, constant doing- Mars Aries inconjunct to Pluto- is the issue that this would put a stress on the pancreas, whereby it would not produce the liquid required for further digestion of the food- thus creating a whole stream of digestive health issues? My exact question is: What exactly, on a physiological level, would happen to the Pancreas?
What are the medical correlations that come with Venus in this case? Is Venus specifically correlated to the production of glucagon and insulen by the pancreas (balancing levels of sugar in the blood)?
Thank you Rad for your feedback, and your ways of providing constructive support and encouragement. I appreciate it so much!
Ari Moshe
Hi Ari,
"All this being Pluto- enzymes, break down etc. With high, unchecked energy, constant doing- Mars Aries inconjunct to Pluto- is the issue that this would put a stress on the pancreas, whereby it would not produce the liquid required for further digestion of the food- thus creating a whole stream of digestive health issues? My exact question is: What exactly, on a physiological level, would happen to the Pancreas?"
************************************************************************
The pancreas also regulates the level of sugar within the system which is why it's correlates to things like diabetes and hypoglycemia. Stress is that which can impact on the functioning of the pancreas. Stress produces a great build up of, among other things, lactic acid in the red blood cells. In turn this lactic acid creates stress in the muscles and want to make them clamp down. Clamping down on the pancreas thus affects it's ability to function correctly. When that happens then the levels of sugar fluctuate wildly as well as the regulation of the digestive enzymes. With her Mars inconjunct her Pluto this of course correlates to not slowing down, of just keeping going. This creates the stress. Mars correlates, among other things, to the adrenals. And the adrenals correlates to the levels of adrenalin and cortisone within the system. When there is too much adrenalin due to being out of balance due to not honoring the systems need to relax, it then produces to much lactic acid. The adrenals in the women also correlates to the levels of female hormones that regulate the menstrual cycle. So, for her, she could also deeply impact on the health of her female system.
*************************************************************************
"What are the medical correlations that come with Venus in this case? Is Venus specifically correlated to the production of glucagon and insulen by the pancreas (balancing levels of sugar in the blood)?"
****************************************************************************
No, this is totally a Scorpio, Pluto, 8th House correlation. Venus has other correlations like the kidneys, urinary tract, the white blood cells, co-rules with Mars the adrenals, the throat area, and so on. So these areas could also become implicated due to not honoring her need to slow down, to be in balance with her need for action and 'time outs'.
***************************************************************************
Rad
continuing on with...
Relationships
For this soul, the experience of relationship would be akin to a "dramatic voyage" (venus leo 9th). Strong winds blow into the sails of the 'ship'; her experiences of relationships would be the journey taken together. Bottom line, for her evolution to proceed, she will need to limit deeper relationships in general and to ensure common shared values of serving and helping the community - the shared vision. (the venus 9th square pluto & ppp)
She would have need to be seen for the ways she gives and receives.(nn 5th, venus leo, sn libra, venus square pluto) that would extend beyond one committed relationship. There is no way one person could possibly fill all her needs on a mental level. Therefore, she will end up having many different friends and connections which do not need to be of a sexual nature to fill this need. She is learning to limit and discriminate in terms of receiving attention and praise for her ideas from others.(venus leo square pluto scorpio, ppp) In this life, it would be advised to find and stick to one partner. This partner would need to be someone who can give and receive the amounts of affection and attention that she would be giving and receiving...and, at the same time supporting her learning to rely on herself to fulfill her needs from within.
Due to the karmic past of relationships, she will be struggling internally between needing and craving the attention certain others seem to provide for her. Her desire to discover and explore these connections will be strong(mars gemini 7th). And yet, it will also feel like a record on repeat....so to speak.(venus square pluto) Meaning, she will sense herself drawn to the attention and praise of others. She will also be wary of this because of the deep relationship wounds from her past she will be healing where there was abandonment, betrayal and broken promises.
Keeping in mind this is someone who is very social and naturally flirtatious. (sn libra 11th trine mars gemini 7th, venus leo) Also, one who loves to kick back and philosophize about the deeper truths evident to those in her circle who, like her, have chosen to decondition and liberate from the "˜man made ideas' and b.s. that the consensus follow unquestioning.
So, we see that the committed relationship she may find herself in would need to allow her a lot of freedom; hence the need for a deep mutual trust. Based on the ppp taurus, we see the "˜slow and steady' development of this an important theme. Relationships that begin under compulsion and obsession are to be guarded against. For these types of relationships are most likely unresolved attractions and relationships with unfinished business which do not need her to dive into to progress and evolve on her own path. (venus square pluto) Especially if such people come into her life and their time together appears to pull her away from her own work, then she should be advised to pull back the reigns, slow it down, and allow the healthy resolve/integration of this life experience. In this way, she can resolve/release, and move through past relationship karma without getting stuck in a relationship that would again be reliving the same past life dynamics. The venus pluto square coupled with the taurus ppp emphasize the need for her to learn self reliance in relationships. The ways she would be relying on others would be for support, attention, encouragement, and affirmations around ideas, beliefs, what she is "˜doing with her life' and a general mental visionary support. She will be learning that from within she will need to believe that she is on the right path; no one else will truly be able to ensure her that what she is about to embark upon is right for her. If she is caught in this dynamic, her choices and motivations will be tied to the perspective and beliefs of those she is closest with. (venus leo 9th, mars gemini 7th, sn libra 11th) She may end up learning the hard way by not trusting her own intuition and seeing missed opportunities in hindsight if she falls into this past-life reliance on those she is closest to to encourage and support her own visions and ideas.
Friends will celebrate her excitement to share ideas, perspectives, viewpoints, and beliefs. She will be see as a whirlwind of excitement and quite a mentally stimulating and inspiring individual; someone who is a great listener and consoler. In this regard, she will draw others to her who are drawn to her because of this passion for exploring life in sharing and conversation. This is another area for her to be cautious. Others who are attracted, at times compulsively, to her because of who she is will end up being "˜high maintenance friendships'. She needs, to evolve, to be a bit selfish with how she spends her time. Selfishness in a positive sense: for her to take the time to connect and hang out and help these types of "˜friendships' will end in a deficit of needed energy to initiate and continue with her own work. (sn libra 11 opposite nn aries 5th) Again, we see the need for her to limit and discriminate with whom she spends time with. (venus-pluto, ppp)
On the intimate level, we see that her life partner would also have liberated from all the dogma, would be allowing her much freedom, would enjoy much conversation and discussion of ideas and concepts, visions and plans, and would allow for quite time to be part of their rhythm of life. This partner would need to be quite affectionate and provide attention, yet have a sense of their own limits of giving and receiving.
Based on everything I understand, I am believing that she would naturally choose a male partner. She would have a natural curiosity and be accepting and supportive of same sex partnerships, yet would reach a place of knowing being with a male resonates for her. (nn aries 5th, venus leo 9th)
Sexually...
she would be very curious and open to exploring and trying different approaches to intimacy and sexuality. (mars gemini, venus 9th) At times she would dive into the sexual act and proceed passionately and quickly toward orgasm through intercourse. (nn aries 5th) Afterwards, she would easily be more detached from the sexual intensity just shared and casually talk about and explore the experience. (sextile trines of mars and venus to nn and sn libra 11th)
During lovemaking, she would be naturally curious and have a sense of being in that moment and simultaneously being a detached observer of what is happening. (mars gemini 7th) It is easy for her to swing back and forth from this detached conversation about sex together and quickly diving back into heated passionate lovemaking. For this level of sharing to occur, deep trust needs to be built up slowly and gradually over time. (venus-pluto and ppp) She would naturally love her partner's penis and appreciate a larger one. (nn aries 5th, venus leo 9th) She would enjoy the discovery of all the ways that she can please him and touch him in different ways. (mars gemini 7th, sn libra 11) She would naturally be able to have these types of conversations. She has begun to come into her own sexual expression before this life(venus trine nn/mars trine sn), yet this will be sure to come up regarding the need to balance sexual attention. (sn libra & mars 7th) She could easily fall into the role of sexually gratifying her mate and receiving great praise and attention in return (fulfills venus leo) but end up with an imbalance of receiving the same attention she is giving. (libra and 7th) In response to this, she has learned to use the sexual techniques that really excite her partner to initiate sexuality/lovemaking when she is desiring it. In this way she could become/realize she has the power to be sexually manipulating in a covert sort of way. As long as her initiation of lovemaking by saying certain things or whatever she knows will turn him on is received in a mutual way - meaning that he knows what she is doing and is okay with then giving her what she is desiring at that moment, this could play out in a balanced giving and receiving for them sexually.
I'm stopping there for now. Rad, how am I doing?
Hi Bradley,
You are doing great. The only dynamic I think you may wish to re-examine is the sexual orientation. I would agree her main orientation would be to men. Yet, with her S.Node in Libra in the 11th, Mars in Gemini in the natural Libra House, it's trine to that S.Node, and it's inconjunct to her Pluto in Scorpio in the 12th, I would feel that she would be bisexual with that natural orientation to men first. With her Venus, the ruler of the S.node in Leo in the 9th, and squaring her Pluto, sextile the Mars, she of course has met very powerful women in the past, and will continue to do so. Relative to her evolutionary stage, coming out of the 2nd Individuated, she would already have rebelled against the consensus traditional roles of male/ female anyway. So I feel she has, and will, be open to certain of these powerful women sexually: not so much for sex as sex, but as a vehicle to osmose one another. She would naturally, at this stage of evolution, see sex and as a vehicle of metamorphosis.
Rad
Hi Rad,
I am VERY SLOWLY working with this practice chart. However, I do not think I will reach the point of being able to contribute to this thread at this time. I am wanting at this time to go through each archetype in as much detail as I can before moving onto the next, then slowly starting to see how each fits in with the other. My mind's been slow these last years and is a little restless now with my impending move and on top of that I'm a horrendously slow reader to start with.. I really want to learn EA. And for me right now that means going at a slower pace than is possible to be able to contribute here. I hope you understand. And I hope this thread will still be here when I catch up...
Peace,
Ellen
Rad,
Appreciate the support. I do have more I am looking forward to posting, yet it is just in my head currently and have a busy few days ahead. Probably by tuesday night or earlier.
Blessings,
Bradley
Hi Ellen,
Your approach is exactly right. This practice chart thread will be here as long as the message board is. God Bless, Rad
I've been thinking about her relationships, and how they relate to her evolutionary intention.
The intense aspects to Pluto, involving Libra Aries, Mars and Venus have strong implications regarding personal relationships.
This soul will naturally be attracted to other people who are of her community, sharing the same purpose, sharing the same vision and drive. Venus in 9th as ruler, and sextile the sn in Libra in the 11th, trine mars... These people will be highly creative souls who feel themselves to be special (Leo). As stated earlier, she will be able to appreciate, listen to, objectively hear, and validate another's reality.
This soul will love deeply and be entirely devotional and committed to those that she shares herself with sexually. And thus naturally expect the same. Venus in leo, squaring Pluto
Just as she can over do it in fulfilling her purpose (all the inconjuncts with Mars and Aries) she needs a partner who can gratify her physical, sexually, intellectually because she needs to push her physical and intellectual boundaries all of the time. I imagine she will enter into many sexual relationships too (Libra on 11th?). However, I suspect that ultimately she'll desire a monogamous sexual relationship (Venus in Leo). Sexuality can be a wonderful outlet for letting out all of her creative energy in a way that is healthy for the body.
QUESTION: Can you clarify this soul's tendency for monogamy or non monogamy... especially in light of a last quarter Venus Pluto square?
There is in fact a yod signature here with Pluto at the apex and both points operating as a full phase inconjunction. I'm going to explore this very lightly, as I'm just getting familiar with the Yod.
Full phase, as I'm understanding it, is associated with Libra/Scorpio. It relates to the need to made adjustments for OTHER people. Developing social humility. Learning what can and cannot be done in a social context. Learning appropriate limitation. When the limitations are not embraced, then various crisis will occur in order to enforce the lesson of humility.
So we know this soul is already very intellectually adept and skillful when it comes to communication, listening to others, picking up lots of info etc. The nature of the yod here, seems to imply specifically that she will try to hard to associate with other people, try to hard to interact with them, to dialog, to argue, to get information, to exchange ideas- ALL THE WHILE REFUSING TO TAKE INTO ACCOUNT what is socially appropriate. This will create crisis in relationship by which her partners and friends will feel distant from her because she becomes absorbed in her own world. Focusing on Pluto in Scorpio in the 12th- the underlying lesson here is learning how to let go. With the Polarity point being int Taurus in the 6th house, that is enabled by creating boundaries and developing a practical point of focus.
An example of this would be during conversation or dialog. Her conversation partner may not be interested in intense intellecualization. She can even get defensive about various ideas (Mars in Gemini), and competitive (nn in Aries in 5th) and feel lost and emotionally vulnerable at the onset of various inner intellectual conflicts (Yod to Pluto in 12th). In the same way that she may experience physical health crisis that would lead her to slow down, she would also experience these relationship crisis- to learn how to appropriately slow down in order to relate to others in a balanced way.
The underlying lesson here is one of humility. Pluto in the 12th as apex of yod indicates that God has a purpose for her- to fulfill on behalf of the whole. If she listens, truly, to what is CURRENTLY AVAILABLE to her in her social reality, (as opposed to forcing what she wants all the time), then she can do the most good, and stop pissing her friends off.
While she certainly has a strong capacity to engage in passionate focused sex- (Venus in Leo squaring Pluto in Scorpio int he 12th)- and really osmose, surrender herself to her partner, and really open her heart (Venus, Leo)- She also has the tendency to, in a moments notice, SWItCH to an entirely different vibration of intellectualization (yod with Mars in Gemini). It's again linked to the lack of appropriate social boundaries (yod).
I appreciate any feedback you have on this! This is my first real attempt at interpreting a yod. Thank you Rad,
Ari Moshe
Hi Ari,
"QUESTION: Can you clarify this soul's tendency for monogamy or non monogamy... especially in light of a last quarter Venus Pluto square?"
******************************************************************************
The issue of monogamy will be an ongoing struggle for her Soul. Given the nature of her evolutionary stage, coming out of the 2nd Stage individuated, relative to her S.Node in Libra in the 11th, it's ruler in Leo in the 9th squaring her Pluto in Scorpio in the 12th, she has desired a total freedom to explore, to discover, her own self in an unlimited way. She has not wanted to be 'bound' by anything, or anyone. She has thus giving herself the freedom to be with whomever she has wanted to be with whenever she wanted to be with them. And this is indeed part of the ongoing struggle in intimate relationships with her that come into this life because there would have been others who wanted her to be committed or monogamous to them.
This would of course have created confrontations and many wounded feelings by those who did attempt to limit her own need for freedom. Some would have even been traumatized by this. And this would have been confusing, the 12th House Pluto in Scorpio square the Venus in the 9th, to her because she would have been honest from the beginning with whomever. Honest in the sense of telling whomever about her nature: that she could be with whomever for a certain amount of time, but not 'forever' in the sense of just remaining committed to that one person. When that has occurred in other lives it has, and will mean in the current life, that certain others have not been honest with themselves in terms of what they could or could not live with: her nature that needed freedom in general, freedom to be with others whenever she wanted to.
All of this is intensified by the fact that her Mars is in Gemini in the 7th, full phase inconjunct back to that Pluto in the 12th, the Mars of course the ruler of her N.Node in Aries in the natural Leo house, the Mars sextiling the S.Node ruler in Leo in the 9th. Of course these aspects all correlate to the fact that her Soul has, and will be, meeting lot's and lot's of people in a variety of social contexts. Thus, she will be experiencing many attractions to many of these people. One of the main vehicles that creates these attractions to others are those with whom she will have a high degree of intellectual and philosophical compatibility with, those that trigger her own intellectual and intuitive capacities. This intellectual/ philosophical meeting ground can thus trigger her emotional/ sexual responses to others. As a result, she can experience a multiple of attractions very quickly, or even at the same time.
What to do with these various attractions can thus correlate to 'crisis' in the sense of whom to actually become involved with emotionally/ sexually, and whom not. This crisis is intentional by her Soul because it is indeed learning, on an ongoing basis, that very lesson of whom to become intimate with and whom not, and for what reasons either way. In essence to exercise discrimination. One form that these crisis could take in order to enforce such a lesson is a physical one in the sense of creating sexual diseases for herself that occur through not being discriminate with others. Another form of crisis could manifest by others confronting her relative to the duplicity of being attracted to many others while being with them.
What will typically happen to such a Soul, at some point, is that she will become attracted to another Soul with whom she will want to commit to in every way: another Soul that symbolizes and represents everything that she feels that she needs. And when that happens she will then want to make a conscious choice to commit to just that one person: her Venus in Leo square her Pluto in Scorpio in the 12th. The crisis of belief within that last quarter square would be about believing that she needed absolute freedom to do whatever, be with whomever, to now needing, believing, that she needed just one other.
When that finally happened another crisis could then happen: that this one other that she finally found would very likely wound not be able to commit to one other that she herself wants to do. In other words another partner who be much like the way she had been herself for many lifetimes. This likelihood is symbolized by her N.Node in Aries in the Leo House, inconjunct back to her Pluto in the 12th, it's ruler that very Mars in Gemini in her 7th, sextile her Venus in Leo in the 9th. In essence another who 'mirrored' her former self.
This would be intentional by her own Soul. This kind of mirroring affect is for her own self learning purposes. And this self learning is for her to continue to evolve. And one of those evolutionary intentions, as symbolized by her Venus square the Pluto is the lesson of commitment itself: the value of being committed to one other Soul on a Soul/ emotional/ sexual basis. So, in essence, she will learn to become monogamous and VALUE IT.
Rad
Rad and all,
I'm posting this next part I'd been working on and finished. After I typed this, I did read over Ari Moshe's and your last posts. The awareness of what you wrote about the monogamy question certainly brings in another layer. I did not want to be too redundant here, yet hoping to see that I'm still on track with the following.
Thanks,
Bradley
Looking back on what I've brought forth thus far, I keep coming back to the "˜why?' question. Why? What is the evolutionary reasons for all of these relationship and sexual dynamics written about?
Stepping back and reviewing the whole signature thus far, rereading more - there are a few dynamics that really keep coming up.
The evolutionary need for her to learn discretion, discrimination, and to "˜fine tune' her choices/adjusting to pick and choose exactly what relationships she will draw from, expose herself to, and allow to influence and impact her life. This is coming from 1. the ppp is 6th, 2. the venus(as sn ruler and trine nn) squaring pluto, 3. sn in libra 11th, and 4. the waning inconjuncts of nn and it's ruler to pluto. So, within this, we see the themes of virgo/6th need to self adjust as well as waning inconjunct(scorpionic/8th) need to socially adjust and learn exactly what will be of use at a core level. Of course, the venus pluto square reinforces all of these lessons and evolutionary needs. Basically, as we have already stated, her vast exposure to so many intense, powerful, and persuasive individuals and groups has been part of the her evolutionary lessons in many past lives. She has already opened up to, on an individual level, many many experiences with so many different people and perspectives. Thus, the evolutionary need to adjust and discriminate is essential to allow her to set her own limits and parameters to have the capacity to stabalize and settle into a specific work/service/role in which she is helping her community and people also stabilize and secure what is of value to their group's shared vision. If she does continue to "˜spread herself thin' by lacking the discrimination of when to stop listening, stop engaging, and at times simply excluding certain opinions, ideas, and perspectives she will have crises in centering herself and having a core source of energy inside herself which she can tap into to continue with her own work. We have already discussed her potential to overwork and burn out in this regard and the physical impact - hence the health crisis - she will experience as the "˜universe'/"˜God' calls her to make her needed adjustments.
Sexually speaking, is sex important for her in this life and why? This is one of my questions. With the north node in the 5th house, venus pluto squaring, and pluto being in scorpio 12th - thus polarity point is taurus 6th, I'm saying that YES - sex will be important for her for a couple main reasons. Is sex an evolutionary neccessity for her to evolve in this lifetime? I do not know this right now. So, first, with Pluto scorpio in the 12th, sexuality will be a sacred experience, the "˜little death' of orgasm would be a gateway to experience divinity. She, of course, may not use these words, yet would have this experience.
Relative to the evolutionary needs of learning to discriminate - especially in relationships(venus square pluto) we know that she has shared and opened up to others, on a mundane level as well as sexual, in which she has, in her past, learned via many relationships and sexual experiences exactly who she is and who she is not(venus as sn ruler/sn 11th libra/square to pluto) In her past, this was needed for her individuation/evolution. Currently, she is learning to apply this awareness of who she is to proceed to actualize her vision of her life purpose. (nodal axis 11/5) The signature has a lot of air and fire - granted we do not know about mercury and 3rd house, yet we see that the pluto polarity point is double earth -taurus 6th, while the south node by house and sign is double air - libra 11th. This, relative to the dominate air and fire of the nodes and rulers, in a sexual context, says that she, for evolution to continue, would be continuing to(already activated nn and ppp) find specific practical techniques and routines by which she can create rhythm to an otherwise potentially scattered reality in her day to day living. Sex alone is not THE way for her, yet when in natural time she partners with the right person(venus 9th trine nn), the sex within that relationship, routinely, will allow her to ground down into herself, anchoring all the mental energy as well as release of excessive nervous and adrenal energy. So, in this sense, sex would be helpful in bringing her from a more fragmented and scattered energy to the rooting into the karma yoga she is destined to do.
Hi Bradley,
A couple of things to understand about her paradigm. One is that her sexual needs/ rhythm will not be predictable. Her rhythm/ needs can fluctuate from being in a pattern of almost zero need to total need with all possibilities in between. This is symbolized by her S.Node in the 11th, it's ruler in Leo in the 12th, and the ruler of her N.Node, and the N.Node itself inconjunct her Pluto. Her challenge is to be in harmony with her unpredictable patterns sexually/ emotionally. If not, then various emotional/ psychological/ and sexual issues can arise that create crisis for her, and her partner.
Within this she can have cycles of being so 'detached' from herself and others that this mental detachment can affect her emotional/ sexual ability to respond to sexual/ emotional stimulus. This can then cause inner frustration for her that could then manifest as wanting to try increasingly intense forms of sexual expression in order to 'feel' again. With her Mars in Gemini, and the S.Node in the 11th, this could also create a high degrees of sexual 'curiosity' to explore/ experience a diverse array of sexual possibilities. Exploring some of these curiosities could also create a high degree of Soul humiliation AFTER THE FACT.
Sexuality is important for her evolution for it is a vehicle through which her evolution from many of the past life dynamics that need to be jettisoned so that she can progressively learn/ know that which correlates to her actual nature.
Rad
Wow! Thank you.
Rad, do you want us to still continue with this assignment? If so, I was planning to rewrite and synthesize all that I've learned around relationships and sexuality with our practice chart; unless you have other suggested direction/guidance.
Also, wondering if there are other aspects to this you would like to bring to our awareness that we have yet to realize?
I keep going back to the genuine sincerity and honesty of this soul as you have expressed- the root of this coming from the pluto scorpio 12th? In combination with the sn and ruler?
We have observation and correlation yes, and then we also have the story that the chart alone speaks regarding the soul. In the dvd's Jeffery teaches looking at the orientation and soul intent as seen thru the chart. I'm thinking of an example where it was clear that the soul had made a contract with evil several lifetimes back. Here, in this practice chart, we have the opposite - the innocence of the openness of a soul in which they have been wounded and experienced trauma as a result.
Question: Would there be a chart with a pluto 12th in which it could be seen right away that the soul has made a contract with evil?
Hi Bradley,
Quote from: Bradley J on Jun 02, 2010, 10:28 PM
Rad, do you want us to still continue with this assignment? If so, I was planning to rewrite and synthesize all that I've learned around relationships and sexuality with our practice chart; unless you have other suggested direction/guidance.
Also, wondering if there are other aspects to this you would like to bring to our awareness that we have yet to realize?
***************************************************************************
Feels like we have done enough of this practice chart now. But if you want to do a rewrite and synthesize all that you have learned about the relationships/ sexuality dynamics please feel free to do. Of course there are many other things that could be said about the practice chart we have been working on, but I feel we have covered enough now on this one.
***************************************************************************
I keep going back to the genuine sincerity and honesty of this soul as you have expressed- the root of this coming from the pluto scorpio 12th? In combination with the sn and ruler?
***************************************************************************
Yes...and the N.Node trine the S.Node ruler, it's own ruler, Mars, sexitle the ruler of the S.Node
*****************************************************************************
We have observation and correlation yes, and then we also have the story that the chart alone speaks regarding the soul. In the dvd's Jeffery teaches looking at the orientation and soul intent as seen thru the chart. I'm thinking of an example where it was clear that the soul had made a contract with evil several lifetimes back. Here, in this practice chart, we have the opposite - the innocence of the openness of a soul in which they have been wounded and experienced trauma as a result.
Question: Would there be a chart with a pluto 12th in which it could be seen right away that the soul has made a contract with evil?
****************************************************************************
As I recall Bradley Wolf never taught or said that one can determine from just the chart alone whether a Soul has made a contract with Evil. That one always must employ observation and correlation to the chart at hand. So, no, whether it's a 12th House Pluto, or any other signature, one can not make that determination just from the chart.
God Bless, Rad
Hi Practice Chart Group,
First, need to know how many of you still want to do this practice chart stuff ? And, if any of you have a need to make it more simple again as in simply putting Pluto in a House, the N and S Nodes in Houses, and the location of their rulers. I am happy to keep doing these practice charts but need to know what the group needs, and who is in it.
God Bless,
Rad
Yes, another opportunity sounds great. Same approach would be great; also open to other requests.
Thanks
Hi there Rad,
Yes, I would very much like to participate in this practice again. I should have my new eye glasses very soon. Together with Stephen, I would like to go back to just putting Pluto/Nodes/rulers in houses as in this alone there would be thousands of combinations, and getting the basics right is so essential. I got lost with the advanced stuff. Simplicity is the essence I feel. Bless you, thank you.
Hi Rad,
I'm interested but extremely caught up in getting ready for my move in a couple weeks, so won't be able to actively participate for awhile. Also, I don't know how long the adjustment period will take once I'm in my new locale. So, I'm interested, and the simpler the better, but can't say for sure that I can contribute...
Peace and thank you,
Ellen
Hi Rad,
Thanks for mentoring this thread.
I would very much like to do these again.
I would vote for maybe starting a new thread when the new chart is started (this thread is getting to be quite a big print job to read remotely!). For myself, I would like to start once once again with the basics, as you suggested.
Blessings,
Stephen
I'm all in for another!
I personally want immense complexity. The kind that pushes me to try harder. AND I am more than grateful for the simple stuff as there is great depth and a lot to learn, practice in just the basics.
Thank you for offering to keep on going with this Rad,
Ari Moshe
Maybe this is too complicated, but perhaps there could be 2 versions of the same practice chart, 1 simple - just the basics, 1 more complex - with some added dimensions to it.
Peace,
Ellen
Hi Rad,
Its long been a goal of mine to get involved with the practice charts thread, but I do have a lot on my plate at the moment - moving house over June, and then health treatments for a couple of months. So I probably cannot participate for a while ... but I'm ultra keen, and really hope the thread is still going strong later when I will be able to partake. Also either the simple or more advanced stuff is fine with me, but I think my abilities are more at the simple level. However either is fine, the complex is just more of a challenge but I don't mind that.
And I am really grateful that you're doing this for us Rad - thank you heaps.
blessings Upasika
Hi Upasika,
Thanks for your message Upasika. All the best in your house move, and of course will send prayers that the ongoing medical treatments you are having take hold and bear fruit.
God Bless, Rad
Hi Practice Chart Group,
Ok, let's start work on a new paradigm. We will do this one is a much simpler way than the most recent ones. Back to the basics, so to speak. The Evolutionary State will be in the last part of the 3rd Stage Consensus, a 10th House Pluto, the S.Node will be in the 8th House, and it's ruler will be the 12th House. So we will have the Pluto polarity point in the 4th, the N.Node in the 2nd, and it's ruler will be the 11th House.
So, let's have a go of it !
Rad
Hi Rad, thankyou
Hi Rad,
As much as I want to go gung-ho on this practice thread, I've had a relapse of the mystery virus and have no physical energy or mental focus. I've started a homeopathic intensive, and have arranged some time off work to rest and recover, so hopefully I'll be back up to par before too long.
Thank you for mentoring this thread, and I look forward to following everyone's posts.
Blessings to All,
Stephen
Hi Stephan,
I hope you recover from this, and integrate whatever this means for you.
I don't know if it's appropriate to ask this- but if you feel comfortable with this, perhaps you can post your chart in another thread and we can learn from an ea point of view what's going on in your body, and why?
With Love,
Ari Moshe
Thanks Ari for your kind words.
My wife and I are also curious to find out the details of what is going on in my body and the reasons why. I've never had an illness of this nature, nor of this duration. We are researching causes and healing methods on the physical level, but that still doesn't completely answer all the questions from a spiritual level. I have as yet received no clear guidance during meditation.
However, I am certain it has to do with this transition I am going through. Also, it is unusual for me to be gentle with myself and to not meet deadlines...so perhaps that is part of the purpose for this 'healing lesson'.
I cannot promise to review any posts made about this illness in any regular fashion if at all, so...since there won't be any feedback...most likely your time is better spent just working the current practice thread. However, if you are still interested, my chart is posted in the following thread:
Chart Practice with Client Feedback: Stephen
Thanks again, and All Blessings,
Stephen
Added at night:
Hi All,
I am going to drop off the MB for awhile...just letting everyone know.
Thanks for the community and fellowship, and for the mentoring.
God'dess Bless,
Stephen
Hi Gonzalo,
Extremely real reasoned and thought out. An excellent understanding of the EA paradigm. BRAVO !!
God Bless, Rad
Hi Rad,
What culture is this soul a part of, and is this soul male or female? Or are we purposefully not getting that specific?
Also, when you say "very last part of the 3rd stage consensus" does this mean that this lifetime will be about beginning the transition to individuated, or rather that certain things would have to take place in order to set the stage for the transition in a near future life?
Thank you,
Ari Moshe
Hi Ari,
The desire within our little group here was to make it more simple again. Thus, the gender and culture of origin was left out. The last stages of the 3rd Stage Consensus means that the Soul is beginning to culminate this stage of evolution while at the same time very tentatively taking a few steps towards the 1st Stage Individuated.
God Bless, Rad
Rad,
Checking in, I guess this is my typical timing, yet I felt compelled to check in and let you know I've been tied up with life responsibilities and am in the process of reading the chapters.
I hope to post within a week from today.
Blessings,
Bradley
Ditto,
Thanks Rad
With love and gratitude for another practice opportunity,
Soul is at the very end of the consensus state.
10th house Pluto, sn in 8th house- ruler in 12th.
nn in 2nd house- ruler in 11.
11th house nn ruler squaring nodes.
11th house nn ruler semi-sextile sn ruler and pluto
sn ruler trine sn. nn sextile sn ruler.
sn sextile Pluto.
At this evolutionary stage, this soul would has already achieved a profoundly penetrating awareness of it's social reality. How power operates. How to rise the ranks in society, how to manipulate and control others according to one's egocentric drive for social power. This soul would have naturally done such things, as is the current nature of the consensus state.
There is not much further that the soul has to go when it comes to mastering the rules. This soul will no longer be evolving within the context of the consensus state, therefore this life time is meant to produce a deep awareness of this soul's limitations and the limitations of consensus reality, setting the stage for future individuation.
Prior to this life, this soul has tapped in to the collective spirit (12th house) and used that energy to grow in power and social esteem (sn in 8th- Pluto in 10th). There have been various unresolved traumas through which this soul has participated in the oppressive of, and even been a victim of such things like group oppression whereby power hungry folks where were in power would do destructive things to the earth and other people on behalf of a "social good". (11th house squaring nodes. Being semi-sextile Pluto and 12th house sn ruler= social idealism giving way to random action as "elitist agendas" that are based on an illusory sense of grandeur, and a desire for more social power).
I'm not sure at this stage if this soul will become victim to such things as the oppressed, or will be still playing it out as the oppressor. My sense is that this soul already has caused such things prior to this life- and will have to experience in some way or another, the limitations of it's own power in order to develop a core guilt of it's use of power (10th house Pluto).
With the chart signatures we know about, I imagine this person's life can take many forms. I can think of 2 possibilities:
1. The soul is actually in a position of social power in this life. In such a case, circumstances in this soul's life will lead it to turn more inward and become aware of the use and misuse of power. There would have to be some sort of loss of power making this soul realize that they cannot rely on the social power gained from the manipulation of the masses. That there needs to be a deeper owning up to who they are- and in so doing this soul will develop a deeply objective and psycologically intense awareness of the innate problems with the way the current society is built (11th house nn ruler semi-sextile 10th house Pluto- integrated through south node in 8th), this will support the cultivation of self reliance in this soul in the face of not getting what they are so used to getting from society (nn in second house, ruler in 11th). They will naturally become more aware of the effects of social power, what it is doing to others.
The nn ruler is integrated first through the 8th house sn. This might mean that this soul will relive various traumas in this life- as it's own secrets, agendas, hidden power ploys, hidden past, sexual misconduct etc- will all be revealed to the masses (12th house) by way of a subversive political or subculture group publisizing such things. This can happen through the internet (11th house) for example.
This will serve as an evolutionary catalyst via the social judgements based on this soul's behavior (10th house pluto). This will lead to the self reliance mentioned above, which enacts the Pluto Polarity point of this soul learning how to provide for itself emotionally, w/out the inner pressure to conform and repress it's needs all the time. Relative to the nn in second, this means that taking care of itself- really simplifying and taking care of it's core emotional needs according to the self knowledge it has of itself. This will be very isolating (nn ruler in 11th) as it strays more and more from consensus expectations in favor of supplying for itself it's core human needs.
2. The soul will experience a core disempowerment via other souls who are in power. The intent of this would be to enforce a broader, more objective, psychologically adept social awareness whereby this soul realizes that attaining (8th house) the american (10th house) dream (12th house) isn't all it's made out to be.
The catalysts will naturally be traumatic whereby this soul will have to re-live various traumas that correlate to the abuse of power from those who are in power. This can be based on anything about this soul that is deemed different, or unaceptable from the viewpoint of the consensus. Perhaps being born with a genetic abnormality (8th house sn, ruler in 12th) based on biological warfare, or some distorted technology (11th house ruler of nn squaring 8th house sn). This will lead the soul to be greatly judged- distancing the soul ever more from the consensus reality.
This will catalyze the opportunity for a core self reliance, realizing that society will not recognize and support it's core needs as a human being. There will naturally be other souls that will come into this soul's life that will plant the seeds of individuation. People who do things differently, who don't care about the judgement of consensus reality.
In all cases, the evolutionary intention for this soul is to become focused on itself, on what it needs, and on being emotionally available for its needs (as well as it's own family if it has one). This soul will become increasingly different from others as it internalizes it's own individuality- this will necessarily lead to increased feelings of alienation.
If this soul has a family, then a lot of these dynamics may be played out or catalyzed through the family. Either judgement from family- or having children who themself are at a higher evolutionary state, who feel emotionally neglected.
I can also see the possibility that this soul will remain in positions of social power and will be faced with various ethical, humane, moral dilemas by which it will be faced with assessing what it naturally knows to be right and wrong. The decisions this soul makes will be the determinant for what happens next. The soul will either risk social rejection in favor of being ethical. Or it will risk being unethical in favor of social acceptance. In the case of the latter- because this soul is now ready to begin individuation, pretty intense catalysts will occur in order to force a core humilty and ethical awareness upon the soul.
A lot of these catalysts will also occur through this soul's marriage partner. The spouse would be someone who in some way or another sets the stage for great abandonment and rejection for this soul (south node 8th, squared by 11th house ruler of nn). The sn ruler in the 12th, trine the sn in 8th implies the ability to surrender to another, to let go and become one. There can be a strong degree of attachment which, upon abandonment, will force the soul further unto itself and it's core needs.
Just as likely these signatures can also imply that the soul will abandon their own marriage partner by cheating on them with others who they have attracted to their life. This leading to a scandal/ great emotional chaos/ and of course divorce, and ultimately the opportunity for the soul to introspect on the ways in which it hasn't been living it's life- has been repressing it's core needs and finding distorted ways to fulfill them.
EA Assignment:
Pluto 10th, south node 8th w/ruler 12th; north node 2nd w/ruler 11th.
Evolutionary State: late 3rd stage consensus, approaching individuated.
This is a soul who has learned to climb the social ranks and "˜play the game' to achieve status, rank, and material wealth in recent lifetimes. S/he has changed gender recently to complete her/his capacity to achieve ambitious goals with both masculine and feminine role-playing in society. The journey to the top for this soul has not been alone. There is a great deal of karma to resolve in this life surrounding the past due to her/his breaking free from the person(s) s/he has worked with. Merging with others who have already achieved success in the world to rise in his/her own authority and social power, s/he has had repeated karmic experiences of leaving a partnership and also of being abandoned him/herself. There are "˜skipped stems' which need to be recovered in this life regarding learning to build appropriate healthy trust in sharing power and resources. S/he, by breaking free and acting on one's own ideas and vision of how operations work or could work, s/he amassed relatively large sums of money and material wealth. While becoming successful to solely operate a business, s/he is starting to have shifts in core values while approaching the cusp of individuated evolutionary stage. Compulsion and drive to succeed independently and survive have resulted in the wounds and emotional trauma of sudden breaks with partners. This soul is learning evolutionary lessons of finding security within, and not from her/his role in society, career, and position/rank. Learning to allow emotions to be shared with discretion and a proper judgement which will open up to finding roles that are not taken out of compulsion to maintain the past. (integration of skipped step sn8th/ruler 12)
In the past, this soul has learned the cumulative knowledge of how to operate and work within cultural traditions and social structures. (sn ruler 12 waxing trine sn & nn waning trine pluto 10th) S/he has become so developed in this sense, there has begun to be the evolutionary impulse to now start the foundations of a new value system(nn 2nd, ruler 11th), a foundation upon which s/he can enter into his/her individuation process. This newness may be new for him/her, yet actually be inner realigning with the consensus religion's morals, values, and right and wrong (nn ruler 11th)
Any yet, there is "˜unfinished business' from the past in which the awareness of this exists in the consciousness in every moment of their life. S/he is truly torn between sharing in both a business and personal sense and the desire to limit, control and be free to manage resources entirely on their own. (nn ruler 11th square nodal axis)
The influence and power of others has been a learning ground and sparked a creative awareness of how to grow and progress in life. (sn 8th waxing trine ruler 12) This growth thru others has allowed an increased sense of personal power, authority, inflated self purpose, and over-identification on a single aspect of their life: career. ( sn ruler 12th waxing trine sn 8th) Yet, there has been something, deep within, which has repulsed this individual about continuing to work toward the future merged with a more powerful person/organization. On one hand, there has become an inner clashing of value systems. S/he has felt limited and blocked from personal financial gain by staying "˜under the wing' of another. Any yet, staying in those positions has also brought success thru realization of specific aspects and avenues of work which s/he could excel at.
This clash in values may also have roots in a deeper guilt carried forward from previous life's. Others means to an end, tactics to maintain and achieve power have led to manipulative use of social power and status and resulted in the misfortune of others. The deception experienced by working within institutions who hold social power has in part led to a mistrust of other's motives and resulted in the development of his/her own values and sudden breaks from their "˜ways'. (nn ruler 11th squaring nodes) These breaks may have been progressive at times as well as a return to tradition. The nn ruler in the 11th will be starting to vacillate between the rigid "˜right and wrong' of past traditions and new self inspired visions(nn 11 relative to nn waning trine to pluto).
The attraction and repulsion to these past dynamics of shared power, knowledge, and resources also has it's roots in: past confrontations which left him/her alone-"˜abandoned' and a sense in which they were being used by the larger organization(used, abused and released) or that the one's s/he had been working for did not have her/his own interests in mind at all. In this sense, there are deep karmic wounds around feeling betrayed by others and a resulting mistrust in others motives when sharing power. (sn ruler 12th operating as a blind spot/naivety in accessing power) S/he has naturally responded to these situations by severing all ties(nn ruler 11th) and taking sole control of all personal possessions and resources(nn 2nd), thereby creating her/his own foundation on which to establish personal security and wealth. Part of him/her understands that these dynamics are the result of specific relationships and that, ultimately, one can not judge all shared ventures based on a couple "˜shocking experiences'. These types of experiences, of course, needed to happen for the continued evolution of their soul. This type of experience, in which s/he is "abandoned and/or betrayed" necessarily threw him/herself back upon her/himself such that a deep inner examining of motives and life goals. (pluto 10th) Resulting from this, the reality of one's responsibility to finding security from within, not from career and worldly success. Also, lessons of filling responsibilities at home, which would have gone neglected with such a focus on career. (ppp 4th)
These types of shocks have led to the liberation from those in his/her life which s/he then saw as not the types of people that s/he really valued. This resulted in, as stated, a liberation and breaking free of these types of jobs/ partnerships/ situations because there is/has been a movement to align his/her work with work that was not just to achieve success in the world. (ppp 4th activated) Wealth of material kind has begun to lose the focus as the end all goal. (start of transition of evolutionary stage) S/he has begun down the road to an inner restructuring of personal values which are supporting a sense of inner emotional security. (ppp 4th relative to nn 2nd)
By her/him then breaking free from those with whom they did not want in their life, karmic relationships and ties have resulted. Also, a fear of staying committed to another in a true sharing of power. In fact, much of the "˜ultimate meaning' of life as s/he knows it came from those s/he has been close with(sn ruler 12th) in this life and (unconsciously) from previous lives. And, it was this type of growth awareness that led to the sense of self motivation and belief in her/his own purpose and capacity to success in life.(sn ruler waxing trine to sn) This push/pull internal dynamic (nn ruler square nodes applying to sn 8th) is triggered because s/he still has deep desires to grow and can not exist in a bubble/stagnate routine. So, there is a strong attraction to connect with, plug into, merge with those who have advanced the next steps in society, while a strong repulsion regarding those experiences. Again, the repulsion is a result of a. desires to be in personal possession and power b. fear/mistrust of past abandonment/betrayals c. desires to begin reorientation of life by casting off all which is not in essence aligned with his/her own developing core values and beliefs. d. inner sense of guilt due to past misuse of power in working with others- having participated in deception of the masses and patriarchal lies.
Part of breaking free of others and becoming a private business owner has been because s/he has learned enough from working together/under others to grasp a larger perspective of how systems of society operate. (nn waning trine to pluto) S/he has learned how to, thru self effort, also achieve the same results. In this way, s/he has risen in status and wealth thru his/her own efforts in vision and management. Part of this path created a need, out of sheer personal exhaustion(pluto 10th, nn 2nd), to have employees.(resolve skipped step sn 8th) The need to include others was essential for the ultimate survival of the business. So, s/he has also acted in role of teacher and mentor to others to train them to help run the business.
In this type of situation, the ever present attraction/repulsion dynamic would manifest in simultaneous desires to increase the shared responsibility, which would free her/him up to keep a steady consistent stable role. And, at the same time, the personal desire to run everything and be in full control of the operation. Naturally, s/he would teach those closest to him/her more about success of the business. The money would be one thing that was kept in full control. This control was something that brought great sense of security and grasp the means to survive, yet, on some level, this position would always be isolating and stagnating. An emptiness has come over pursuit of success from a purely monetary and material value. (skipped ahead to nn 2nd via ruler 11th). There is a detachment and aloneness in this role.
Another possible manifestation of this would be a return to "traditional business practice" (nn ruler 11th, nn 2nd) instead of being progressive(skipped sn 8th). This would again be acted out because there was a sense of inner emotional security in the older, traditional, more familiar business practices. Perhaps, even a greater sense of living out a traditional family life which led to a greater sense of fulfilling one's duty and responsibility as a parent. Part of this scenario would include a fear to progress and grow. There are unintegrated dynamics from the past because of repressed fears. Solely following the ways of the past would trigger confrontations because the past role actually has been grasped onto out of avoidance and fear of intimacy. There is, in this case, an inner fear of what may come up, to keep pushing the limits of his/her own comfort zone.
In the situations in which s/he has had employees, this sets the stage for another situation in which s/he has had a blind spot of compulsive focus on the creative actualization of his/her own vision and, unconsciously allowed others enough power and knowledge would have resulted in partners/employees stealing from him/her. Becoming a victim of own fears(sn ruler 12 trine sn 8th) This type of betrayal and shock was again necessary because it triggers a core re-examination of the whys of what they are doing. Then, by searching deeper for the ultimate meaning of their life, making the proper discriminating choices to realign the purpose and organization of career to support his/her own inner emotional security, not just the outer success.
This is the integration of the skipped step. We would, as counselors/evolutionary astrologers, be looking to see that there is a healthy self growth occurring by selectively choosing whom to trust and whom to exclude from their life. (integrated sn 8th) A total shutting down of this trust would reveal a deep fear still needs to be overcome and personal sense of vulnerability remains when allowing others some control. (sn ruler 12) This type of held and repressed fear could cripple their marriage, shut them out from truly being close to their children and family, and potentially result in a great financial loss. (blocked nn and ppp)
For this soul to complete their sense of inner emotional security, they need to open up to change and allowing others power and control...yet selectively. This, again, is a lesson that everything needs to be brought thru - bottom line - the sn 8th skipped step. Part of the past trauma was a lack of discrimination when it came to the sharing of power and gaining of power. Relative to the waxing trine of sn ruler 12 to sn 8th, it was the sense self inflated purpose that created the blind spot of being manipulated and used by others in the past, while believing s/he was gaining. Re-examining one's own inner motives for this power and status while still allowing others to be close is key. The nn ruler 11th also shows us that this path to self sufficiency has been led by the emotional detaching of those closest. The groups which are sought out(nn ruler 11th) may actually be very empty if there is not a real emotional sharing present. The groups which s/he involves them self with would provide keys to where they are at with this integration of the past and future. Also, relative to the family and home, the level of warmth, intimacy and sharing in this would also provide us clues as to where they are at with integrating the future thru the past. At this stage of evolution, we may see that there is great progress of the soul in this integration when we see them involved in religious groups and organizations. (integration of pluto, nn, and it's ruler thru sn and it's ruler) Within this, the "˜ultimate meaning' (sn ruler 12) of shared power (sn 8th) would now have a new place within the newly constructed reality. For example, we could have someone who chooses to be a sole proprietor, a successful private business owner who thrives because s/he has employees who share in religious values and inherent sense of right and wrong. Surrounding her/him self with these types of individual's would be an example of allowing making appropriate choices about with whom to involve oneself with. With this step in place, s/he can then establish(nn2nd) their own vision(nn ruler 11th) and redefine the meaning of their career(pluto 10th) based on choices that are coming from an inner emotional fulfillment that had been only partially fulfilled in the past.
Relative to partners in intimate relationships, much of these dynamics would carry over in a similar fashion. Certainly, the drive to success and carry out responsibilities could easily leave the relationship void and unattended to. This would set the stage for the emotional shocks of abandonment in personal relationships. Learning to open up and trust, allowing intimacy will foster a needed nurturing relationship. Without allowing personal vulnerability and intimacy before sex, the partner would feel like the shared sex was more an experience of self gratification and feel that s/he was very distant from them. As this soul evolves, learns the lessons of re-establishing trust, this opening up sexually with their partner can really awaken them to real self growth, and an "in-touch' sense of their inner self. Their partner would begin to see they have a very physical controlled side to them and also a soft, sensitive, and nurturing side which has been slow to reveal itself.
Rad,
Many thanks for your guidance. Any and all feedback is welcome and appreciated.
I am questioning my understanding of how I developed the ppp 4th and interwoven this into the analysis.
Thanks,
Blessings,
Bradley
Hi Ari,
Very good EA reasoning in your analysis so far.
God Bless, Rad
Hi Bradley,
"I am questioning my understanding of how I developed the ppp 4th and interwoven this into the analysis. "
****************************************************************************
So far your analysis and interweaving of ALL the dynamics, including Pluto's polarity point, is exceptional. It is a great joy for me to be able to experience your own evolution Bradley with your work in EA. Everything that you analyzed about this paradigm so far is right on, and correct. You are displaying a depth and totality of understanding that is truly a joy for me to experience.
God Bless, Rad
It is a joy to read this. Truly grateful.
In regards to other dynamics that could be developed:
More dynamics of being born a woman in patriarchal paradigm at this state.
More details of skipped step response relative to the saturn and uranus sides of 11th archetype and evolutionary state.
Ruler of north node semi-sextile pluto-relative to above and everything else.
Waxing Sextile of south node ruler to pluto.
Waning sextile of sn ruler to nn.
Relationship patterns
Sexuality
and ??
Granted, most souls who have been on earth for some time have lived many lifetimes according to natural laws, times before patriarchal imbalance. In the last practice assignment, we learned that the signature revealed a significant number of recent lives - strong subconscious memories of living in cultures who still carried out life in natural rhythms and in touch with nature. For that soul, my understanding is that she has the sensation of not belonging to the culture of birth, feeling out of place of sorts, and finding things in life that resonate deeply from other cultures. This is right??
In our current assignment, granted we have less details, but still I am wondering if anything suggests development of taking on prominent roles in society/culture in which the rules of the game, so to speak, would be vastly different than the patriarchal power dynamics that are clearly being held on to and have been the driving force for so long now? Not sure if I'm asking this clearly, like - because of being at the end of the consensus stage, do we know that this soul has achieved status and learned to establish personal authority in many different cultures? and in ways that would be very different than in, say current america? Is this information still unknown without more of the signature/chart?
I believe I will be able to answer my own question and also develop this more.
If you see us staying with this assignment for a bit longer, I'll go ahead and begin working on this next chance I get.
Blessings,
Bradley
Recently, I came across some articles of women in the past who would disguise themselves as men to have privileges and/or gain of men in the patriarchal society-such as an inheritance or joining the military or being a pirate. Actually, quite common. While examining these stories, I saw that the dynamics actually fit the pluto 10th with sn 8th, ruler in 12th. By being in disguise, deceiving those they were joining forces with(sn 12th), they would be able to attain great power, whether it be for money or rank. (sn 8th to pluto 10th) I found these very interesting, yet the one key piece that does not fit is the evolutionary stage. This assignment we are discussing a late consensus soul; these stories are more along the lines of hmmm.... maybe the cusp of second and third stage individuated?
I started with this to bring in the creative aspect of seeing into past and present life story lines which can take us deeper into the meaning of this type of signature. In the above stories, we see the sn ruler 12 aspect of disguise, hiding an aspect of self, being able to singularly focus on one part of who they are to achieve more social power. In the example of joining the military as a woman in disguise, the motive is not consensus based-for this act is not directly linked with wealth and risks one's life-clearly for individual evolutionary purposes.
So, what as a soul in late consensus stage, would be example story lines which reveal these same archetypes playing out? One example is portrayal of a single aspect of one's self (sn ruler 12th), thereby hiding true self to marry someone who has social power and wealth. In a patriarchal culture, this could be a female in marriage to a man of "high standing", yet it could be a man marrying a woman from upper class family. In this example, the sn 8th is a symbol of merging with someone who has wealth and resources - power by definition of consensus perspective. Relative to the sn ruler 12 in waxing sextile to pluto 10th, playing the role of "wife" or "husband" which the other wants/thinks they are with would be a role which leaves them alone, isolated with time to internally process the way in which their life is unfolding. In this story, we see the nn ruler square the nodes manifesting as the internal conflict in each moment to stay with the status quo, keep wearing the mask out of sense of power and security from the partner/marriage OR to break free. Major inner crisis; relative to waning square of nn ruler to nn, there is a crisis in belief surrounding personal values, which are just beginning to vacillate between consensus based values and individual values. Relative to sn waxing square, the crisis in action is the impulse to caste off, abruptly break free and liberate from this "living a lie" - to sustain oneself, thereby finding all security from within, what one is identifying with internally who they are and what they are capable of. We need to ask, at what point, relative to consensus reality, will one stick their neck out and take such a leap of faith to be free(nn ruler waning square to nn)? This question's answer lies in knowing what specific era/time, and culture we are actually talking about, as well as gender, the totality of the chart, etc. The point here is that this story starts to suggest the dynamics and how they may play out.
Now, we could also see the breaking free from whatever the sn 8th symbolized as a road to being thrown into "survival situations" in which s/he needed to rely on their own inventiveness and ideas to survive.(nn 2nd/ruler 11th) Imagine someone suddenly leaving a small town. Connecting with another group of people would be a step in survival, securing basic resources. Once in this new group, we may see the sn8th/ruler 12th play out relative to pluto 10th-the person unconsciously desires to be in a place of power in this group - this is what is familiar and comfortable to him/her. Here, the individual comes constantly into the same inner conflict. By playing a certain role/wearing this or that mask/amplifying a specific trait/persona/disguising their true nature(all sn ruler 12th) they would create (waxing trine to sn 8th) the merging with a specific person, group, organization, bureaucracy, etc. (sn 8th) thereby achieving a powerful position and increase in wealth and social standing(pluto 10th).
Coming back to the square of nn ruler to nodal axis, the individual is constantly torn between the inner reality of being extremely attracted and repulsed by what they just created, and being extremely attracted(and repulsed) by idea of breaking away again from shared power dynamics. Seeing the ppp activated, the individual has already experienced great inner emotional fulfillment by being able to personally succeed, sustain one's self, to survive in a worldly sense without the "trappings" of working with another person/group. "Trappings" relative to the impulse and crisis in action to act out one's own visions and ideas.
On the other hand, people can go on and on, live days, weeks, years, and lives convincing themselves that what they are doing is right. Relative to sn and based on the late consensus stage and the sn ruler 12th, we will see the attraction to stick with working for/with someone/thing of greater resource/power/wealth to be a choice which, partly s/he can go on fooling her/himself that this is ideal(sn ruler 12th). We have two things to consider at this point - a. the skipped step square and b. the resulting evolutionary necessity of staying with someone/thing out of illusion of needed power/security. So, in this signature, part of the self is like "hell no, I want to get the heck out of this" but then may simply pretend this inner dialogue isn't really happening.(sn ruler 12). So, we could see this person, depending on the actual chart and strength/emphasis of 12/pisces/neptune relative to pluto and sn, have this inner attraction repulsion be this inner argument that is so familiar to her/himself. In this example, where the individual is repeatedly convincing self that this is where they should be and the role is only being followed for the money and security of job/career, we can then except to see the evolutionary necessity of the 8th house "rug pulled out from under the feet" relative to ppp 4th- and of course the abandonment, betrayal, resulting "˜slow to trust', felt deceived. We see the sn ruler 12 played out by the individual in first example and by the "other" which they merged with(sn 8th) in this last example.
What we know by seeing the lateness of third stage consensus is that this pattern is old, deep in the individuated unconscious. They have already broken ties, gone solo and survived- the resulting experience was much more fulfilling on an inner emotional level for them then holding onto a career that had held onto for the power it allowed connection to. (11-> 2-> 4th). We also know that part of them is repulsed by doing it all alone - this is because they have life experiences in which they realized the creative power of merging with others. (sn 8th waxing trine ruler 12th)- ultimately, this too was fulfilling for them and there were needed experiences in establishing who they are "out in the world"- work/career/society. (pluto 10th) This nodal square also means that they have unfinished business in learning self achievement, discipline, motivation, and personal authority. Relative to skipping ahead to nn 2nd, gaining more personal wealth running their own business may resulted in a laziness, stagnation, loss of motivation and ambition. They may have become more focused on improving their home. In this example, channeling gained money into building and improving their home(very consensus 4th house result of nn 2nd), they have settled down. Relative to the skipped step 8th, they need to, bottom line, incorporate these 2nd and 4th house experiences thru the 8th. Another way of saying this, is: ask these questions- where is the growth in this person's life? Who is close to them? What or who, outside of their self are they committed to? Is their business changing/evolving? Are they having sex? Are they having intimate relationships which push them, are powerful shaping forces in their life?
Mentioned in the first post was the guilt pattern with a pluto 10th house. Relative to late consensus, the guilt would be connected to the path that brought them into positions of social power. Already mentioned guilt of past lives of being deceived by an organization/corporation which one was working for. Used, abused, they abruptly left the situation feeling manipulated, cheated and lied to and participated/contributed to corrupt use of power unknowingly. This is one possible reason s/he would carry guilt.
Another would be, back to the earlier example of (sn ruler 12th) wearing the disguise to access the power themselves. There may be guilt and self judgement, both from social conditioning and possibly violation of natural laws because of these past acts of deception.
Another example, relative to this signature, which would explain carrying guilt, would be that s/he by accessing power and wealth via others in upper class standing(sn 8th relative to pluto 10th in late consensus); achieved this because of role playing an inflated self image(sn ruler 12 waxing trine)- even something like parading around like a peacock, so to speak. "I am so great, blah, blah, blah..." Something like this would be an act that was a dis-service to self/creator. Even mocking those who are "less fortunate" from this self inflated place of power. There may have been, via karmic retribution, the removal of access to such power, forced cut off, deep haunting guilt of having "bettered one self" for sake of material gain.
Whatever the actual stories, past experiences that led to guilt, we can be keeping in mind that a lot of this guilt may have it's sourcing in the conditioning of a moral right and wrong relative to society which a life was/is lived. For example, the taught "˜right and wrong'- relative to the sn ruler 12th/sn 8th--> "fake it until you make it" approach may be taught by the culture as deceitful and wrong, yet it may have been exactly what this person needed to be doing to evolutionary progress in the past.
I asked the question in an earlier post about knowing if this soul has achieved high social standing, success, wealth in many different cultures.
Here is my answer to this:
Most likely, there would be several cultures in which this soul has had such experiences.
We do have the sn, sn ruler, nn ruler all in waxing aspect to pluto. We, also, do not know the location of pluto in the 10th - is it just entering or is it late in the 10th? Also, we lack the clues of an actual chart - where does sag and jupiter show up relative to the core evolutionary signature? Other planets in 9th? What about the planetary nodes?
This question does not have a yes or no answer- there is a spectrum of manifestation which we need more info to go further with.
Rad and all,
here is "˜going further' with this assignment.
I found it challenging to tie in sn ruler waxing sextile to pluto, aspect between nodal rulers, and sn to pluto.
Also, I have not yet gone too deep into relationship and sexuality. Surely, there is more dynamics relative to each part and the whole which still have not been gone into.
As always, any feedback is welcome and appreciated.
Thank You.
Hi Bradley,
It's wonderful that you are allowing yourself to so creatively explore the possibilities within the archetypes presented in the current paradigm. Are there are indeed many, many possibilities within the totality of these archetypes: as in any paradigm. And one of those possibilities in the current paradigm you have rightly discovered in your historical research that you have shared here. So, yes, what you have discovered and shared is totally possible within this paradigm.
"maybe the cusp of second and third stage individuated? "
This possibility can occur at any stage of the evolutionary development of the Soul: not limited to the second or third stage. And there are other paradigms that can also correlate to this phenomena of a women making herself appear as a man, or visa versa.
God Bless, Rad
Rad,
thanks for your reply.
This reminds me of the compulsion of a pluto 10th to achieve, the risks taken out of ambitious plans and, relative to the sn 8th, obsessive motivations...manifesting potentially as positive evolutionary growth, corrupt action, and the spectrum inbetween.
My pinning this to the later individuated stage shows that I am still learning the bottom line of pluto in the 10th period.
Blessings,
Bradley
Pluto 10th - SN 8th - SN Ruler 12th
PP 4th - NN 2nd - NN Ruler 11th
End of 3rd Consensus
The prior evolutionary intention of the Soul was to establish its authority and individuality (values, needs, purpose) within the upper strata of society (Pluto 10th, 3rd consensus) by merging with sources and symbols of power (SN 8th) such as prestige, status, family dynasty, material abundance, authority, political power (10th), sexual power, taboo experiences, intimate relationships, inheritances (8th), and to realize the Ultimate Source of power (SN ruler 12th). He has a psychoanalytical orientation to penetrate to the core of himself, to understand himself, and so he seeks to understand "why" he seeks power in society, etc.
He is beginning to exhaust or dissolve some of these root desires (3rd consensus) by liberating from existing cultural/societal/parental conditioning (11th); resolving skipped steps by detaching, viewing and therefore healing past life conditioning patterns; liberating himself (11th) from unhappy relationships (8th); redefining his self-image (4th); and discovering how he can be his own symbol of transformation through his own efforts (2nd), as he evolves toward the cusp of 1st Individuated.
He overly identifies with externalities such as a powerful social position for a sense of bottom line security (10th). The karmic signature symbolizes various possibilities such as being born into a powerful and wealthy family with an intense, strict, disciplinarian father (10th) who was absent (12th) or who was emotionally unavailable to him (4th); inheritance of wealth (8th); merging resources with a powerful marriage partner or marrying into money (8th); manipulating the system to his own advantage (10th); and, the creation of his bottom line desires through his co-creative power (12th).
The last metamorphic event keeps him fixed on the treadmill as a powerful and authoritative social figure (10th, 3rd consensus). Any effort to implement change (cardinal 10th) causes insecurity, as his behavioural patterns are very rigid and fixed. The emotional dynamics of his inner child are repressed and stifled (4th) due to over-identification with career, social position, duty, and responsibility for a sense of meaning and security (10th).
He has a compulsion to merge with others he perceives as powerful (8th) through the sexual body, and he would have a strong tendency to fantasize and daydream (12th) about sex, powerful people, how he can manipulate and use them. These figures, based on prior life connections, symbolize something that he desires, eg power, influence, material success, or they may seek him out for the same reasons. Various degrees of sexual manipulation will occur in these relationships/liaisons implying an unhealthy emotional dependence. The attractions will be obsessive, compulsive and irrational, and some may bring back unconscious memories of being hurt, abused, manipulated and then abandoned (8th) and could result in negative behaviours such as revenge, manipulation, or control (8th). Once his need for these sexual partners has been fulfilled, these relationships are usually discontinued.
Violations of trust, abandonment, betrayal, loss, and emotional shocks delivered by family, children, divorce, fall from grace or secrets uncovered - when the rug is pulled out from under him - causes his artificial world to collapse. This leads to a sense of being out of control of his life (12th) and he could try to grasp for more power and control (8th) by reverting to the security of the past, and an all-consuming fear or resistance to the Source (12th) due to feelings of intense guilt and self-judgment (10th). He is forced in upon himself to deeply examine "why" these cataclysms have occurred.
It is possible that he sustained psychological abuse (8th) by a tyrannical father (10th), or suffered intense delusion, betrayal and loss through an unhappy marriage (8th), thus impacting upon his emotional reality/self-image (PP 4th), which then necessitated the liberation (11th) from and resolution/healing of the skipped steps.
Behind the societal expectation (consensus) that he present himself as a man of stature, masculinity, toughness and power may lie shyness and timidness, and this could point to another form of crisis: a suppressed bi/homosexual tendency (11th) exacerbated by a recent gender switch (10th/4th). In this case he would attract past-life connections in order to resolve the problem of his sexuality (skipped steps) by metamorphosing the limitations (8th), developing detachment and objectivity (11th) in order to liberate his sexuality, and to transcend the limitations of cultural consciousness and the judgments therein (10th, consensus).
He could try to hide repetitive compulsive behaviours and all manner of "skeletons in the closet" and would experience breakdowns, cataclysms, crises and disillusionment around: family secrets, loss of family support, suspect business dealings, loss of wealth, fall from grace, depression, feeling great emptiness (10th), secretive sexual liaisons, obsessive infatuations, taboo sexual desires and experiences, failure to repay loans (8th), alcoholism, insanity, irrational behaviour, phobia, paranoia, incarceration, attempts at suicide, fear (12th), quite possibly leading to a mental/nervous breakdown (11th).
The limitations of his sense of power will force him back in upon himself (4th, 2nd) and cause him to approach spirituality when nothing else would work (12th), allowing him to experience new thoughts, realizations, dimensions and new ways of relating to himself (12th). He would regain faith in life (12th), find security within (4th), and find his true sense of value and self-worth (2nd).
Since he's had great difficulty in trusting life, he is learning to let-go and trust. He realizes that going through the old motions of success and social position are not serving any further purpose, and so he learns to develop security and personal fulfillment on in an inner level, freeing himself from overly harsh responsibilities.
On the ashes of these crisis scenarios, he begins to blast his way out of the old karmic signature, to rebel against societal pressure, and to attract people of like mind (11th), who don't fit the usual mold or societal conditioning. The rebellion against his existing conditions allows for the beginning of an individuation process to occur (end of 3rd consensus).
His societal position continues to evolve through a process of reflection on what structurally needs to change in his life (10th) in order that further growth can occur (8th), and this leads to liberation (11th) from the old conditions. He also liberates from existing fears of betrayal, abandonment, loss and violations of trust by examining the causal factors therein (8th), and then changing the patterns.
The same process of liberation applies to his self-image (4th), whereby the need to be held and touched (2nd, 8th), to be nurturing and empathetic (4th), creates emotional renewal and inner security (PP 4th) and a sacred quality (12th) whereby he is able to metamorphose personal limitations (8th) and purge self-defeating thoughts (12th). The liberation of his sexuality makes way for a budding desire to change his political views and to make the system more socially equitable for all citizens (11th).
~ ~ ~
Hi Linda,
A very good, succinct, analysis of this EA paradigm.
God Bless, Rad
Hi Practice Group,
Let me know how you wish to proceed. God Bless, Rad
Rad,
Personally, I had been thinking about starting the next assignment in whatever fashion and detail you choose.
Today, I began to revisit this signature regarding relationships and sexuality.
I'll be posting a bit more on this in a day or two, otherwise feel ready to move on.
Blessings,
Bradley
Pluto 10th Assignment continued:
Relationship and Sexual Dynamics
This individual, on a soul level, has been driven to achieve and establish their own power and authority. In personal relationships, this dynamic would be seen in s/he maintaining a sense of control and power in the relationship - to be in control and more comfortably taking a dominant role.
This dynamic is tied to pluto, sn and it's ruler. It would be natural and easy for him/her to appear as different than this. Relative to sn ruler 12th, s/he would be able to appear to his/her partner as the person which they desire. S/he would naturally take on these roles/fall into these roles because it is naturally more comfortable for them to maintain a sense of control and power in the relationship, thereby one manifestation of this would be dominating the relationship while having the appearance of doing and/or being exactly what their partner wants.
This is a parallel to the same pattern discussed earlier regarding how s/he has learned to "shape change"/play the role needed to access power/maintain control to hold a dominant position.
In some cases, relative to the pluto 10th, we may see, at times a deep struggle of suppressed emotion coming out in the relationship as being "frozen" in a sense. With a mate, it would be possible to see this even play out as, in the case of a female bodied person, faking orgasm and having their partner experience, via illusion, an amazing sexual experience, yet inwardly being restricted, closed off, and not personally having sex bring a sense of emotional warmth, closeness. This dynamic really depends on the individuals unconscious needs to maintain a dominant role in the relationship. For a woman in patriarchal America, for example, this would be where we get the phase "I can see who wears the pants in the family" and other patriarchal responses to a woman holding the power position in a relationship. For a male in this same example of american culture, it would feel like a naturally taught role, relative to the culture, yet leave inner isolation.
Yet, this person, on a soul level, is no longer satisfied with this role exclusively. Male or female, we know that the sense of living a lie, specifically in relationship, has increased and resulted in casting off holding power and control and the position in which they had embodied so often. (square nn ruler to sn) The pluto 10th aloneness, the "ebinezzer scrooge" experience of isolation of being on the top, cold and alone because of their compulsion to hold power position has lost its glory and reward. Inwardly, they may become "trapped" in roles that were molded for them, resulting in that sense of "living a lie". This is all relative to time and society/culture of birth. In the two american cultural examples, both "˜roles' are culturally archetypal roles and have a familiarness to them - relative to the pluto 10th, this means a natural comfortability. Extending this to partnership leading into family, we see that it would be easy for this person to naturally be the disciplinary and "˜authority' of the family. An example of this playing out in a parental role, s/he would be able to maintain authority and control by subtly altering situations, circumstances, and even objects in a room. On a very mundane level, this could be seen in, as a parent of a toddler, "keeping hidden" things that may happen until the timing is "˜right', subtly steering, unknown to the child, them away from a person, experience, or situation which would alter the child's experience. This style of parenting is in no way "wrong" or "right", it is totally relative to the individuals use of power.
So, this same pattern would be playing out in the relationship(s). What this means is that s/he would be even more subtle (sn ruler 12) and at times secretive (sn 8) around specific situations which would potentially threaten their own standing in the relationship.
Now, the above is not the totality of the individual's experience. The above is an isolation of the pluto, sn and it's ruler to begin to paint the picture of one polarity of reality that s/he will be coming from. Now, to weave in the north node 2nd, it's ruler 11th relative to the pluto polarity point 4th, we can see that, on a soul level, outer achievement has not been the end all. In a personal relationship area, this means that, relative to the nn 2nd and it's ruler, s/he has made effort to break away from past patterns of complex entanglement and simplify their life, thereby creating more space in their life for a home life. (resulting activated ppp 4) Pulling out of full submergence into the career path, s/he has already created experiences of connecting to learning how to be emotionally present and nurturing. This would extend into partnerships, relationships with children, and sex life.
Now, the push-pull of the nodal axis and it's square from nn ruler in the 11th. This is applying to the south node, as discussed prior. What this means in terms of relationship dynamics is that their is a struggle, on a soul level, to stay within his/her own limits of power or go outside of the self and "seize the reigns" so to speak. This is a constant inner struggle because of the ways in the past that s/he has taken hold of greater power. On one hand, there can be guilt and self judgement around this. Also, a sense of again leaving them emotionally cut off by controlling and dominating. The actual past life experiences of betrayal, abandonment, and confrontation which reside in the individual's subconscious play out in such a way that there is also a fear of being to deeply involved. Relative to this, the withdrawn into self(nn 2nd) by making abrupt breaks in these types of relationships and/or relationship patterns, while simplifying(2nd) her/his life and allowing more alignment of the outer with his/her own inner identity, they also symbolize the skipped step - which, relative to relationships means that s/he has a evolutionary lesson of learning to integrate the evolving inner core self identity (2nd-4th) thru the experience of intimacy and merging with their partner.
To say this another way, s/he will not be emotionally complete just by living out the north node, thereby the ppp 4th unless it is re-integrated thru the past egocentric identity of merging together to accomplish purpose. The signature suggests fears of intimacy relative to the past wounds when they were very open to greater power outside of themself. (sn ruler 12) While they have proven that they can succeed "by theirself", the fruits of the ppp - 4th - inner emotional security will not be truly experienced unless it is integrated thru the sn 8th and natal pluto. In an intimate relationship, the resolution of the past karmic signature could be played out many different ways, of course. One example would be allowing them self the freedom to connect with other groups of like minded individuals while in relationship which cultivate a sense of core values and having achieved a deep enough trust and intimacy in the relationship (resolved 8th, 10th) that there is a real resulting inner emotional security - such that there is no longer a need to control their partner's similar desires for freedom. This allows freedom to be self sufficient within the context of a shared power relationship that has a sense of deeper meaning. (integration nn 2nd and ruler 11 thru sn 8th) If s/he can come to this place, they may not need to still repeat this skipped step in the future. This level of freedom within relationship means that they are not emotionally detaching from the relationship, they are no longer retreating into them self, the combination of the two creating a "running away from intimacy" - so, we see how clear it becomes that it is crucial that this soul learns to integrate the experience of individual freedom and self reliance into partnership, marriage, union with another. Without this integration, the resulting patterns would be the ones initially described - inner aloneness.
A very healthy individual which is evolving through the skipped steps (integrating the future thru the past) will show the emotional security to allow a "˜loss of control' and maybe even open up to the uncontrollable chaotic experiences which sex and intimacy can release. Where this individual is at with this can only be determined thru, of course - observation and correlation.
Hi Bradley,
Excellent !! Simply excellent EA work.
God Bless, Rad
Hi Rad,
I am ready for the next assignment along the lines that you choose. I hope others will join in too, eg Ellen. The value is in the effort!
Love,
Linda
Hi Linda,
First, let's find out who still wants to do the practice charts. So for anyone who wishes to do this let me know.
God Bless, Rad
Oh I spaced on this, sorry. Yes I would like to continue.
Hi Ari,Gonzalo,Linda,Bradley, and any others that want to continue doing our practice charts ,
Ok, the new practice chart will have Pluto conjunct Mars in the 9th, new phase, the S.Node will be in the 11th conjunct Neptune, and N.Node in the 5th, and it's ruler will be in the 4th. The evolutionary stage will be 3rd Stage Spiritual.
Let's have a go at it.
God Bless, Rad
Hi Rad,
Where should we place the sn ruler?
Hi Ari,
The S.Node is in the 11th, and it's ruler is Pluto.
God Bless, Rad
Rad,
Is the intention to not incorporate signs into this at this point?
Hi Bradley,
Well was just trying to keep it simple. But, heck, let's put the signs on this paradigm. The S.Node is Scorpio, and Pluto and Mars are in Virgo. The N.Node obviously Taurus, and it's ruler, Venus is in Pisces in the 4th.
God Bless, Rad
Bradley and Rad,
Due to recent interest shown by some beginners, we were going to keep it simple. But since most participants at the moment are not beginners, Rad you are adding the signs. That's absolutely fine with me, I will try my best, whatever practice chart you set here. As said earlier, I didn't want to hold the others up. For anyone interested in this practice, here are the details:
PRACTICE CHART:
Pluto/Virgo/9th conjunct Mars (new phase)
Pluto Polarity Point/Pisces/3rd
SN/Scorpio/11th conjunct Neptune (balsamic phase)
SN Ruler Pluto
NN/Taurus/5th
NN Ruler Venus/Pisces/4th
3rd Stage Spiritual
Is the spiritual stage when a soul realizes that outer reality reflects inner reality? or can this occur at any stage? thanks for any details anyone can give....
Hi Linda,
The S.Node/ Neptune phase is balsamic .................
God Bless, Rad
bluesky,
This can be understood an an 'idea' pretty much from the 3rd Stage Consensus forwards. As the Soul evolves forwards this understanding of the idea of the phenomena progresses to the point wherein the Soul is consciously, and contantly, aware of the inner reality within itself being reflected back to it via the circumstances of the Soul's life. That full blown awareness, thus understanding, begins at the 1st Stage spiritual and progresses from there.
God Bless, Rad
Thanks for that, Rad.
Hi Rad,
Is this soul new, in the middle, or in the end of this third stage spiritual?
Upasika, thanks for bringing that up about Jesus and masochism- just your questions were very clarifying for me.
Ari Moshe
Ari, I think you're referring to Gonzalo there, not me ...
lol, yes. Thanks Gonzalopan- as above :D
Hi Gonzalo,
The EA analysis relative the paradigm is excellent. And for the sake of this paradigm it is important to simply understand what this paradigm is from an archetypal point of view independent of any particular person, including Jesus who had this paradigm in his birth chart. Using the life to illustrate the paradigm is fine, or other 3rd state spiritual Souls as well. Yet we must remain within the paradigm itself rather than focusing on any one individual. If you want to post the whole chart of Jesus and then ask questions, as you have within your analysis, that would be fine, and the best way to proceed.
God Bless, Rad
If the chart of Jesus is going to be delineated, could we please have a separate thread for it? I do think it would be a fascinating study! ;D
Hi Rad, you may have missed my questions:
Is this soul new, in the middle, or in the end of this third stage spiritual? Thank you,
Ari Moshe
Hi Ari,
Sorry for missing your question. I think what would be neat to do, if all agree, is to do this paradigm initially for the beginning of the 3rd Stage spiritual, then we can do it for the middle, and then after that do the final stage ... this would be neat to do because of the obvious progression/ evolution through the stage. Right now though let's start with the beginning of this stage. Let me know your thought about my idea, and also Gonzalo, Linda, and Bradley would like you to think about this, and let me know too.
God Bless, Rad
sounds great.
That sounds really great Rad- I think we would all learn a lot that way.
Yes, I would also like to see how the progression/evolution takes place through the stages. This will be highly educational, challenging but rewarding. Thank you Rad.
For future reference, here is the link to the part on spiritual evolutionary stage on the school's home page:
http://schoolofevolutionaryastrology.com/school/essence-of-ea/the-spiritual-state
Hi Rad, I realized that I've been assuming that Venus is inconjunct/semi sextile the nodes because of the 4th house/5th house relationship, and that's how Gonzalo interpreted it. However perhaps it is sextile/trine the nodes because of the Pisces/Taurus relationship? Just want to clarify which one...
Hi Ari,
Well, I did not make that specific when I posted the paradigm. Wanted to 'try' to keep it as simple as possible. Anyway, let's go with the trine to the S.Node, and sexitle the N.Node.
God Bless, Rad
Hi Rad,
Are you intending for us to integrate the combined dynamics of venus in opposition and inconjunct by sign/house to the pluto mars? I see Gonzalo has weaved this together and my thought/question is that thru this paradigm dynamics we are learning how to see and interpret planets in opposition by sign or house,yet inconjunct by the other.
Does this question make sense? Like, would the fact that venus is in a scorpionic inconjunct by house symbolize this dynamic between venus(in this case) and the natal pluto mars?
Or, to ask another way, it is possible for two planets to be just degrees away from an opposition and be in inconjunct houses. In these situations, I'm under the impression the dynamic symbolized would be very different than if the opposition was also in opposing houses. And that this is/will be part of what we are learning thru this practice chart. Is this correct?
Thank You,
Bradley
Hi Bradley,
Well, first, I was intending to make it more simple again. But, if you want to analyze this paradigm that way, then go for it. And, for Linda, if you want to keep it more simple for yourself, then please do. The Zodiac is of course the totality of our consciousness, and the planets within the Zodiac the psychology within that consciousness. So when planets are in a house, and naturally inconjunct other planets, or in opposition yet inconjunct by house, they do have their own meanings, and the reasons for those types of dynamics. So, sure, Bradley if you want to analyze it this way for your own development, then go right ahead. So, for this paradigm, make that Venus in opposition to the Mars/Pluto, yet inconjunct by Houses.
God Bless, Rad
For those who are desiring to work with all the aspects just clarified, here is a copy of the chart I believe we are working with:
(http://i417.photobucket.com/albums/pp255/arimoshe/thirdspiritualpracticechart.jpg)
In gratitude and love,
New to third stage spiritual:
At this stage in this soul's evolution, it's underlying motive is burning any remaining separating desires that prevents from a complete union with source. It has become deeply attuned to its oneness with Creator, with the source of all things and no longer has any need to identify with the particular form it is inhabiting. At this stage, the soul knows that its very existence is to serve the oneness, and it will thus desire to attune itself to the ways in which it is meant to do so. It understands that it has a unique purpose to fulfill on behalf of creator, yet is not invested in identifying with that purpose in any way at all. It knows that it's essence is of Truth, and not of the form. Its desire to serve will be selfless, the soul will expect nothing in return.
As a consequence of that selflessness, this soul will be relatively unaware of the effect it has on other people. This is because the center of their gravity is moving more and more towards service, not on trying to reach any results or prove who they are in anyway.
As this soul is very new to this evolutionary state, in light of the Mars Pluto new phase we see that this is in fact the first, or one of the first lifetimes in which this soul is inhabiting this planet with such a purpose. Prior to this lifetime, this soul has come into cultures, societies in which its purpose has been to help groups of people recover from the distortion of thinking that dictates various ideas about who they are and who they aren't- helping human beings uncover their essential nature as soul. This soul has been facing the underlying assumptions and beliefs of society as a whole and has naturally been faced with the task to shake things up and wake people up out of their dissociated coma.
The way this has happened has been through teaching. This soul would have gravitated in the past to a particular philosophy, belief system that it came to through direct revelation- and taught that system to others. The nature of this system would have been a methodological approach to uncovering the essential nature of the soul (Pluto in Virgo in the 9th as ruler to Scorpio sn in the 11th) such as a system like a soul focused astrology (11th house/ Scorpio, Pluto).
Because it has operated through teaching and working within a system of knowledge, it has necessarily been faced with people's resistance to finding the truth out for themselves. This soul has in the past been very dogmatic and intense when it has come to making other people see the truth (Virgo in the 9th house as ruler of Scorpio sn) to the point where it has in fact tried harder than was necessary to teach others/ make others see. In the end this has produced disillusionment (Neptune) whereby it has attracted to itself immense persecution from other people who truly did not want to hear what this soul had to say.
A humbling lesson for this soul in this life is to literally chill out. What marks this soul's entry into the third stage spiritual would be the inward realization that it is only here to act upon the role that God appoints for it- and not to force anyone to evolve quicker than is possible (Scorpio sn conjunct Neptune in 11th house, sextile all the Virgo 9th). In this life it is deepening it's understanding that discernment and discrimination are necessary qualities when teaching others. This is signified by Venus in Pisces in the 4th in a full phase opposition to the Mars Pluto in Virgo in the 9th. Full phase opposition here means that this soul is required to enter into relationships as an equal, meaning with the intent on listening objectively to the reality of others in order to clearly determine what its specific role in the relationship is. This soul naturally has the ability to see the best in everybody (Venus in Pisces in the 4th), the ability to nurture others based on seeing who they actually are, and support them to reach their highest. Trine the sn and Neptune- this patterns has become consciously known, and this soul understands the imperative to become a better listener and pay better attention to the people it is interfacing with.
At this stage there will be an inner resistance to acting upon the work that it is meant to do. The nature of this resistance is simply residual doubt: That there is too much to heal on this planet, and the task is too great. Also this soul is aware of the collective resistance to change, and does not want to set the world ablaze. However, it has no choice and is aware of the work it must do.
Therefore, this soul will make choices to initiate a new path for itself (Mars Pluto new phase) to write, publish, lecture, and communicate it's spiritual teachings. This will manifest primarily though a wide range of media, and mostly random actions (new phase). The soul will not know how this will develop, how this will unfold, but it knows that it must act in order to get the ball rolling, so to speak. As this soul progresses on its journey, various structures will manifest that will appropriately contain and give definition for the teachings of this soul. For example: devoted students who are ready for these teachings. This soul needs to surrender its need to do everything perfectly, and simply write and communicate in the way that other people can receive it.
In this life, its sole purpose is to really be in the world, to be accessible to the right people in the right way. This is done by way of the north node in Taurus in the 5th ruled and sextile venus in Pisces in the 4th. Becoming a householder and taking care of its own family are evolutionary necessities. Why? In order to bring this soul back down to earth, into the world. Sn in Scorpio in the 11th, with Neptune there, ruled by Pluto in Virgo in the 9th has so much effort and passion written all over it. This soul has gotten lost in the effort to save the world and has been disillusioned and martyred as a result of that time and time again. By focusing on its own emotional life, by way of building an actual family, and living somewhere remote and peaceful, this soul is literally grounding into this earth. This signifies its willingness to be here and act on behalf of creator (Taurus= saying yes to life) as well as the necessity to learn appropriate boundaries, learning how to be self sufficient within its own spiritual life without constantly needing to effect change in the external environment.
This path of householder also manifests on the level of intimacy. Actually being with a partner who can support this soul in the spiritual teaching work, and support this soul in maintaining proper boundaries between its teaching life and home life (Venus Pluto/Mars full phase). This partner will be emotionally sensitive and be very supporting to the evolutionary purpose of the soul.
However with the full phase opposition with Venus and Pluto and Mars, relative to the Scorpio SN, I understand that this soul would likely have attracted intimate partners into its life who were NEEDING something from that soul- who took and took and took and manipulated. This would have had the intent on disillusioning the soul, assisting it to create appropriate boundaries and only develop intimacy with the right partner. I imagine that this at this evolutionary juncture, this is possibly the first time that the soul will not need to engage sexually, as the energy will have already been released through the spine? Therefore, this partner will also be at such a level? I'd like more clarity about this soul's relationship to sexuality. I imagine it has just reached, or is reaching in this lifetime with the right partner, natural celibacy, is this correct?
The Evolutionary purpose of this life in the end is to communicate in ways that the masses can be served. This is the ppp in Pisces in the 3rd. All of that is enacted by the creation of personal and social boundaries and only doing the work in this world that is appropriate. It's important to note that this soul will gradually amass more and more students. This will happen effortlessly by way of others being attracted to the intensity of truth emanating from the teachings. Those who are not of integrity, or have manipulative reasons for associating with this soul, will eventually be VERY TRIGGERED by the honesty and directness of this soul. It is important that the soul not "take these people on"- but rather simply be a mirror, and let their own karma work itself out.
God Bless,
Ari Moshe
Hi Ari,
A simply excellent analysis of this paradigm so far. Your EA reasoning here is exceptional. Relative to the intimate relationship issues this Soul would not have evolved to a place of NATURAL celibacy yet. That place is only arrived at, naturally, by the end of the 3rd Stage spiritual. So, sexually, at this stage of evolution the sexual orientation will be to use sexuality as a vehicle back to God/ess as well. Thus, vehicles like natural tantra would be the natural orientation of this Soul. This Soul is a Soul who is all about Natural Laws versus man made one's. Thus, even the vehicle of Tantra will be questioned relative to the patriarchal perversions of this natural sexual way. One of the ongoing 'liberations' of this Soul, S.Node in Scorpio with Neptune in the 11th, trine the 4th House Venus is in fact in it's emotional body. Not only a liberation but a healing within it. The very essence of the Source, in the end, is emotional: Love. Thus the necessity, as you rightly pointed out, for the path of the householder as a result.
Within this the Soul has ongoing lessons to understand the difference between what the Soul naturally and rightly perceives as who another Soul is: how any Soul has been created by the Creator. Thus, the right perception of potential, who the Soul actually is. And of course this Soul will desire to help any Soul come back to their original natures as a result. The underlying problem that has created crisis before, the Pluto/ Mars in Virgo in opposition to the Venus in Pisces, is a failure to recognize the ACTUAL REALITY of the Soul in any given life. And because of that this has lead to massive traumas, crisis, and disillusionment as a result. This then becomes an on going evolutionary development, lesson, for this Soul: while recognizing the potential of any given Soul, of being able to 'see' who any given Soul naturally is, while as the same time recognizing what the Soul has become that has served to 'condition' and alter who the Soul actually is.
This will be true in the Soul's life work as well as it's personal/ intimate life with another. The key of course will be for the Soul to choose another who in fact self sustaining at the point of attraction: N.Node in Taurus. And of course a Soul who has the same deep commitment to God/ess, whose evolutionary station is the same.
God Bless, Rad
Hi Rad,
I'm intending to do this practice chart, but am really busy till next next week so wouldn't have anything ready till monday/tuesday, hopefully that wouldn't be too late.
Upasika
Hi Upasika,
That's fine of course, and welcome to our little practice group.
God Bless, Rad
EA Assignment: Mars waxing conjunct Pluto Virgo 9th, sn balsamic neptune conjunct Scorpio 11th, nn ruler Venus Pisces 4th in waning (full) opposition to Pluto. Early 3rd Stage Spiritual.
We know this is a soul who has journeyed thru many many lifetimes and a vast array of life experiences over many many cultures. In this, this soul has just completed it's liberation from the creation of more karma which has it's source in the ego. This souls only reason for continuing to reincarnate on the planet earth is to be in service to the Source - to act as a natural teacher relative to where and when God/ess leads him/her to do so.
S/he has encountered the full spectrum of human beliefs, cosmologies, metaphysics and religious concepts at it's evolvution out of the 2nd stage spiritual. All of these human concepts have gone thru intense evaluation.(pluto virgo as ruler sn scorpio 11th) It's alignment with Source(transition from 2nd to 3rd) has been thru the total dissolving and liberation of all mental attachment to her/his own "˜knowing'(no longer infused with any egocentricity)(scorpio sn 11/balsamic neptune relative to pluto virgo 9th) Or, to say this another way, relative to what she/he identifies and knows in terms of the timeless and infinite nature of the Source, s/he has distilled out all remaining mental attachment to beliefs - attachment which were sourced in her or his own ego's identity. This has been accomplished thru the learning of special mental techniques(sn 11 scorpio and pluto virgo); for example meditation, techniques of thought control, and spiritual rituals and practices which foster the dissolving and release of any form of attachment. What has resulted is the evolution of the ego aligning with the soul's natural orientation toward it's (the soul's) belief in simply being alive on earth to be of service to God/ess.(pluto virgo 9th)
This soul has developed a strong intuitive and psychic knowing over the past lifetimes on the planet. This "˜knowing' is not clouded by any human teachings - it is simple alignment with the Source of all knowing. What this soul has been doing is liberating itself from anything that has blocked it's growth - in the past it has pinpointed all inner blocks(sn scorpio 11) and learned special techniques to eliminate all influences which cloud and distort pure knowing from the Source of all.(pluto sn ruler virgo 9th) Thru these techniques, s/he has learned to fully surrender to the divine, complete it's merging with the God/ess and overcome all related fears.(sn balsamic neptune) S/he has fully embrace a transcendent belief system where the definition of being in service to God/ess is no longer defined by any of the pre-existing religions and spiritual paths. (Although aspects of this may be reflected in other belief systems) It is a living changing inner relationship to the Creator, which moves one in ways that the ego centered consciousness could not ever foresee.(nn ruler venus pisces 4th trine sn) This divine path of service naturally unfolds and leads this soul to places it is called to go to in this life. The actual concept(9th) of being in service(virgo) to the divine(neptune sn + 3rd spiritual) metamorphasizes (sn scorpio/ruler pluto 9th) into this intimate inner relationship with the Creator.(nn ruler pisces 4th) The resulting humbleness(pluto mars virgo) is naturally visible and compassion and love embodied.(venus pisces 4th)
Over so many lives, this soul has synthesized elements from many different cultures which do resonate with Source(pluto 9th virgo relative to sn neptune), and identified every element within all the human cultures and teachings which had arbitrarily defined her/his own soul nature and the nature of God/ess.(sn 11th scorpio) In learning these techniques, in past lives s/he has submerged her/himself(sn scorpio) into spiritual communities(sn neptune 11) and into relationship with others of like mind/spirit who had/projected this shared vision and goal. S/he has been living in human cultures, yet resonated energetically in such a way as to be evident s/he is not "˜of it' - in it but not of it.(spiritual state + sn 11, waning sextile pluto/mars to sn) It has been natural for this soul to fall into teaching roles. This soul's very natural uniqueness and passion to uncover the ultimate truth and meaning of human constructed belief systems for many lifetimes has been the source of many confrontations from others. These confrontations have occurred in a variety of ways.
One type of past life confrontation is when, within the culture s/he was living in, a group within that culture felt very threatened by his/her rejection/elimination of "˜unnatural' aspects of their own belief systems.(sourced from patriarchal distortions of God) In a very egocentric fashion, these others would have taken this as personal insult and attack and felt threatened by his/her influence over others within the community. Because of their own egocentric identification and attachments, they were blind to see her/his own true intentions and ended up projecting onto him/her false motives and intentions. This type of confrontation would have its source from within the community at times/lives and in other cases would have been outside groups within the villiage/town/city. A common projection would be that the message s/he was teaching was only for him/her to have a personal sense of power. This was a direct reflection of their(the other) own need to have power over the group/community/culture. Along with this would come the rhetoric that there were hidden agendas and motives, etc.
Also, confrontations would also be coming from within. An example of this would be calling out the falsehood, hypocricy, and distortions of truth which this soul would have known of and hoped to awaken someone from. This effort was because there was still egocentric attachment, investment in the liberation of humanity. One result of this type of confrontation of truth coming from within would have been the realization that her/his own desire could not change another or free another. Not necessarily dissilusionment at this evolutionary stage, rather awakening to the ultimate truth of how individuals come to know God.
Some of these types of experiences would have catalyzed a crisis in the form of his/her's continued identity with the spiritual community that s/he was in at that time. His/her own inner orientation toward the Divine and the false perception and accusation of being inflated in self importance simply by having x-ray vision to see thru the b.s. would have led to the need to cast off from the group which s/he was/had been submerged within. S/he is very familiar with distorted group consciousness and has inner knowing from which the source it came. The last remaining blindspot of her/him has been that egocentric attachment to the evolution of the group itself and to the investment in having truth be known. In this type of past life experience, people who were initially friends would have become enemies. Her/his own inner attachment/investment into these groups in the past is what partially created these crises. The resulting crisis of belief resulting from this last egocentric attachment - to the investment into the groups and teaching truth - and having to then reorient his/her own beliefs by learning to only trust the divine leading from within and seeing that there was a reason s/he had created these group dynamics/experiences. Another thing which evolved out of these recent types of experiences is that s/he has learned/penetrated to the core of what motivates, moves, controls, and has power over group consciousness. (sn scorpio 11th) S/he saw how s/he could use their own power for this, but would never choose to do such a thing because those types of actions in no way serve the Creator.
Other past life confrontations would be this soul confronting the presence of evil within the corruption of humanity. This soul has traveled many places and seen many atrocities, including whole groups and villages of peoples destroyed, the impact on humanity of war,greed, and distrortions of natural ways of living because of the domination of patriarchal religions. This soul would have brought the light of truth where ever s/he traveled. This would have attracted people and attention of all types. Many weirdos, outcasts, and eccentric types would have been attracted to her/him because s/he also walked to the the beat of a different drum and shined with the light of the creator. Also, s/he would have and still attracts those who were/are masochistic and desired a savior.
The presence of evil would have also been around, attempting to instill doubt and fear of speaking out the truth. Also, evil would have worked toward distorting her/his purpose and reason for being somewhere and why s/he was sharing, teaching and speaking. Evil would have used the attracting animosity to inject thoughts of doubt to the path and purpose. Past life memories would contain times of becoming a martyr because of having the courage to overcome fear and doubt and speak up. Hence, in this life, the venus opposite pluto aspect reflects learning to appropriately chose who to be around, where, when and how to share. The past was full of being so inflated with this purpose of speaking the ultimate truth of reality that s/he attracted a great amount of resistance and opposition, and sacrificed his/her own inner emotional security as a result of his/her travels. (venus 4th opposing pluto 9th)
S/he has had this inner knowing that what s/he was bringing was from the Source and ultimately only helpful(pluto virgo 9th as sn ruler conjunct neptune balsamic) for other like minded beings and groups, yet has now most recently learned to dissolve personal attachment to her/his own hopes that s/he is empowering the group/spiritual community in which s/he has identified and found to be a home of sorts. (sn scorpio/neptune/11 as symbol of last dissolved ego attachments) Again, this is a key dynamic of the final dissolving of egocentric desire for this soul.
What is new about this life is the great sense of purpose s/he brings relative to all these past awakenings. (nn 5th/ruler waxing trine to sn 11) What is new is the soul's desire to be the natural teacher that the Creator has called her/him to be(mars waxing conjunction to pluto virgo 9th) This special purpose will be seen in the sharing/teaching of his/her own spiritual resources/techniques which s/he brings into this life(techniques for self liberation - sn 11th - becoming nn taurus 5th - purpose to share these techniques such that they become a resource available to humanity and the natural world.) This purpose will again call this soul to travel and teach at certain times during her/his life.(mars waxing conjunct pluto 9th) This great wisdom, channelled directly from the Creator, will most likely come out in the form of spoken and written teachings, in the form of posing questions of an ultimate nature such that it awakens others to their own soul truth and inner liberation. Relative to the pluto polarity point in the 3rd Pisces, we see that the teachings of how to align oneself to be of service to God/ess(9th virgo pluto mars) could come forth in the form of asking questions in such a way, as led by the Source to do so, such that s/he does not become attached to for the answers - rather individuals will learn from her/him by answering the questions themselves. The teachings s/he brings may very well trigger crisis in belief for others, yet ultimately they will support the dissolution of false concepts of the Divine. In a true Virgonian sense, the teaching will result in self reflection, self analysis of other's beliefs and knowings, which will potentially lead others to a greater openness to all aspect of the divine, thus generating in others a personal sense of humility and desire to also learn to be of service to God/ess.
Relative to the north node being in taurus and the 5th house, seeing that sexuality will still be a part of this soul's knowing of God/ess (Rad's reply to Ari's post) it is quite clear that part of her/his purpose is to procreate and have children. Relative to the ruler of the north node being venus in the 4th, this also means having a family thru the establishment of her/his home first. Venus, treating as waxing trine to sn, full opposition to mars pluto by sign & waxing inconjunct to sn by house and waning inconjunct by house to mars pluto. Earlier, I made mention of certain past life crises in which this soul became alienated within it's own home. (venus by house inconjunct sn 11th while waxing trine by sign) So, there was a sense of purpose and identity - thus an inner relationship within to a spiritual group/community becoming a sense of home. But then this same group becoming a source of criticism. Or, vise versa, that inwardly s/he began to go to extremes - this relative to a certain amount of attachment to the group and simultaneously going thru an inner analysis of identifying with the community as home - seeing the imperfections in this relationship. One of the things this soul realized is that s/he needed more of a sense of retreat and solitude than living in a spiritual community was providing. (nn ruler venus pisces 4th) This past life imbalance and the need to detach and caste off belief that s/he would only be of service by remaining in the community (full opposition by sign of venus to pluto) and relative to the waning inconjunct of this same venus to the pluto by house, the need to have discrimination in choosing home.
And, Venus, by extension of relationship to self and home (and being in full phase to pluto) the need to choose the right partner - one who is also close to God/ess, at or near the same evolutionary state, one who embodies compassion and has the capacity to listen and hear what s/he is saying - and, relative to pisces 4th, a partner who can intuitively, psychically sense the emotional needs s/he has while not being a partner who is over needy and does not allow this soul it's own needed quietude and retreat within it's home space. This would be the definition of a soulmate relationship, where unconditional love is ever present.
So, Venus, as ruler of the north node is then the symbol of having a home and family with their soulmate, which will then facilitate their establishing and embodying this life's purpose. This could easily be seen also as home being the place where this soul puts these teachings into writing in the form of story, poetry, and spiritual teachings which all have a common theme of drawing closer to God/ess by humbling oneself and learning to be of service to the divine in many small ways: the mundane as a path to God/ess. Relative to the mars(desire) opposite venus(relationship to home and self) there would be a polarity in this life of being at home with family verses going out and traveling to teach again.
Rad,
I have gone over this a few times and have tried to not be redundant. Always appreciate any and all feedback. Thank you.
God/ess Bless,
Bradley
Hi Bradley,
Your EA analysis is spot on. The only minor correction I would make is when you keep using the word 'belief', or 'beliefs. This Soul will be teaching that they is in fact nothing to believe, and everything to know. Other than that, bravo !!
God Bless, Rad
Hi Rad,
I haven't read any of the posts done by others on this chart yet, just wanted to get something of my own done before doing so...
Practice Chart:
3rd Stage Spiritual
Pluto in Virgo in 9th new conjunction Mars, PPP in Pisces in 3rd
SN in Scorpio in 11th balsamic conjunction Neptune, ruler is Pluto in Virgo in 9th new conjunction Mars
NN in Taurus in 5th, ruler Venus in Pisces in 4th
Context
This soul has reached a point where it's separating desires are relatively exhausted. It has been a long time already in the spiritual stage of evolution, and the last major hurdle in its quest to return to the Source has been overcome. Now, at the beginning of the 3rd spiritual stage of evolution it will be consolidating lifetimes of struggle into a peaceful, loving existence, and it's new challenge will be to settle into being a natural vehicle for the expression of Source itself through it's presence and actions.
Having come out of the transition between 2nd and 3rd stage spiritual in recent lives the soul may still be a little hesitant to acknowledge it's new alignment with the Source. There will be deep memories of the agony of letting go of the separating desires belonging to the 2nd stage spiritual as it went through the transition, as temptations from these desires, and evil itself, would have been heightened and acute in those lives. Now, finally free from the relative grossness of the energy of those desires, it will be naturally relatively empty and free from all apparent selfishness, illusion, delusion, expectations, projections and separation. Yet this state being new, it will also be very sensitive, and probably in awe due to it's increased direct experience of union with the Source itself.
Background
With the SN in Scorpio, in recent past lives this soul has been developing it's understanding of the nature of the cosmos and natural law through intense experiences of many kinds. With the SN in the 11th these experiences would have been ones that allowed the soul to explore it's remaining attachments to it's individuality and to it's past. A possible example of this will serve to illustrate these dynamics. Given it's evolutionary stage and with Mars in 3rd qtr sextile to SN/Neptune, and Plu in 9th, this soul may well have been attracted to setting themselves up as a guru, shaman or priest and having many followers (SN 11th) as a symbol (Scorpio) of spiritual (SN conj Neptune) power (with Venus in Pisces trine SN/Neptune this may have been related to Christianity).
By having a group of followers the soul would have had a captive audience to whom they could have dispersed their ideas of truth (Plu 9th), and also a social group on which they could experiment (11th) for their own purposes (Scorpio). They may have been interested in ways they could use the group to indirectly improve society by urging their followers to abandon convention and turn towards spiritual ideals. They may have created an ashram for this purpose as a way of sheltering the group from the day to day impact of society (exclusion of 11th) or may have not done this, preferring a looser network structure, as a way of preserving their own privacy (Venus in 4th) even from their own followers.
With the SN in Scorpio they would have been attracted to explore social taboos, and may have encouraged their followers to engage in anything that represented a taboo in the society in which they were living. On the one hand this could have been for the general benefit of their followers, but it also could have been for their own benefit - creating a situation where they could observe and study how people reacted to certain taboos that they themselves were still personally interested in - or both. This would have allowed them to vicariously experience those taboos without actually having to personally go through the motions and thus expose themselves to potential confrontations from society (SN 11th) if these activities became known to the general public.
Without doubt one area of these taboos would have involved sex. Mars is in a new conj to Plu (SN ruler) indicating a desire for unchecked freedom of sexual expression (amongst other things) and opposite Venus. This may have led them to encourage their followers to break consensus society's rules regarding "right" relationships, e.g. to have orgies which they could observe (11th) and/or to allow sex amongst themselves with minors, and they also may have seduced some of their followers into having one on one sex with them, with promises that doing so would "open the follower's kundalini" in a way not possible otherwise (for the follower). Other taboos, or areas of interest that would be potentially threatening to the status quo that they may have been interested in could have been shamanic practices - eg use of consciousness altering substances (SN conj Neptune), alternative ways of living (eg communally - SN 1st qtr trine Venus in 4th), radical therapies (SN in 11th, 3rd qtr sextile Plu in Virgo) etc.
Throughout all of this, this person would have found themselves in a perplexing dilemma. With the SN in 11th there would have been a strong desire to identify where they were attached to ways of being, living and behaving that were limiting their growth and evolution. Already far beyond needing to fit in with society, this need of theirs would have been largely based on inner impulses, urges and thought activity and patterns that they perceived as blocks to an expansion of consciousness. Given their evolutionary condition, with Neptune in balsamic conj to SN they would have already developed a deep capacity for resonating with the Source through meditation and a devotional approach to life and would have sensed the possibility for complete dissolution of the ego. Yet at the same time with SN in Scorpio there would have been a deep resistance to doing so for fear of being rendered absolutely powerless. Attachment to power and control, even if well hidden from the outside world, would have haunted this soul in subtle ways internally. The soul's already enhanced knowledge and understanding of natural law (Plu in 9th) along with it's previous spiritual experiences (evolutionary stage) combined with it's desire for continual improvement (Plu in Virgo) would have created guilt in the soul regarding this resistance to letting go of it's egocentric centre of gravity. And underlying this sense of natural guilt would have been residual feelings of lack, doubt and imperfection (Plu in Virgo) also contributing to this dilemma. This dilemma would have sharpened the soul's desire for greater understanding of the metaphysical and cosmological laws of reality (Plu in 9th).
With the SN/Neptune in 11th it's highly likely that this soul eventually became the prey of its own illusions in the end. Followers commonly do not really understand their teachers (Plu in 9th) in the way their teachers may desire them to, with misinterpretations and misplaced expectations the rule rather than the exception (difference in evolutionary stages). And controlling such groups (11th) can be very difficult to do. Invariably things get out of hand to a greater or lesser extent at some point, and once this happens the limitations of personal power (Scorpio) are exposed and scandal (11th) is easily created. And religious or spiritual scandal incites the consensus public like nothing else as these kind of groups represents a great threat to the status quo of conventional religion. With Mars in new conjunction to Plu this person may have misused their power in many ways without a clear idea of how they were doing so, and if events erupted in their life they would have been tempted to use manipulative means to force people to do what they wanted, all the time trying to disguise their actions (SN/Neptune) so as to avoid being exposed (Scorpio) for doing so. This is where the two faced nature of the person's "truths" would have manifested, as they preached one thing but actually acted in contrary ways to that. The bottom line for this person would have been that they were always "right", and their teachings about tolerance for all (Neptune 1st qtr sextile to Pluto) would have gone up in smoke if serious conflicts with their followers or the public arose. At worst, the public as well as most of their followers would have turned on the person and persecuted them (Plu in Virgo, Venus in Pisces).
All of this would have had the effect of traumatising (11th) this soul, and could have caused it to reject (11th) it's followers in one form or another and retreat into an isolated position (Plu in 9th) convinced no-one was capable of understanding them. The alienation (SN in 11th, Plu in 9th) created would have been in marked contrast to their former situation where they would have been a central force of power (SN in Scorpio ruled by Mars conj Plu).
Current life
With Pluto in Virgo this person belongs to a generation that is destined to work on dismantling egocentric tendencies they find in themselves and replacing these with a sense of connection to the Whole, to the oneness of all things. This deep evolutionary requirement will have aligned well with this soul's own prior intentions in recent lives as it transitioned beyond 2nd stage spiritual to where it is now. Pluto being in the 9th shows us this soul has a highly developed intuitional grasp of reality, and will understand the natural laws that govern the phenomenal nature of the universe. It will be able to sense the connection between the past, present and future in a simple way, and will have a visionary aptitude that allows it a sense of direction not only for itself but for mankind as a whole. However this person may not be able to communicate much of what they know, one - because of the high level concepts through which they understand reality, and two - because their own stage of evolution means they will have experienced things that very few would actually be able to relate to. With Pluto in Virgo this could result in a subtle sense of guilt, that they were not "helping" enough.
Venus in Pisces (ruler of NN) being in trine to the SN/Neptune conjunction and in opposition to the Plu/Mars conjunction (which are also both sextile each other), shows however that in the current life this soul would be still working on many core themes and issues from recent past lives. The turbulent experiences from the past discussed above will have created a great deal of inner processing for this soul during those times, as it wrestled with the inner contradictions (11th) inherent in the situations and circumstances it had created for itself. It would have been forced to realise that it had been living in an illusionary world of it's own making (Venus in Pisces), which was not reflecting the actual reality of itself, but was based on a dream - that of being a guru/shaman/priest capable of showering love onto all (Venus in Pisces in 4th), and the conviction that their personal truths were the entire truth (Plu in 9th). As a result a core desire to withdraw from public confrontation (SN in Scorpio in 11th) and a need to find emotional nourishment (Venus in 4th), free from personal and social disillusionment (Venus in Pisces), would have arisen.
The resulting sense of emptiness in this life (Plu in Virgo) will not be as much a problem for this person as one lesser evolved. They will have the instinctive understanding of how to fill this void through meditation. And Venus being in full phase opposition to Mars/Plu shows that this prior life need to find real emotional nourishment would also be largely in place coming into this life, and that they are actually now capable of relating to others in the kind of selfless way they were aspiring to be able to do in their recent lives (albeit as part of a personal agenda). However there will be an ongoing process around this, as the past life tendency to want to withdraw from all social interactions (that they ended up in their most recent lives) will still be present in their unconscious in this life. They will also still feel natural guilt regarding their actions from those previous lives (Plu in Virgo) and feel somehow impure (Venus in Pisces), thus doubting their motives and readiness (Plu in Virgo) to contribute to others on an equal basis (Venus, natural ruler of 7th). So initially in this life, they will probably isolate themselves to an extent, and focus on creative pursuits that enable them a measure of control over how much they need to defer to, or even involve, others (NN in Taurus in 5th). This will be very good for them, as meeting their own survival and creative needs means unnecessary involvement with others will be minimised. This will make it easier for them to be more objective about and detached from any prior convictions, concepts, truths and visions that are no longer relevant to their own personal or social situation, to be more impersonal regarding changes they must make within themselves, and to create the space for new and innovative processes (NN in 5th) to open up within them. As this process continues the universal peace and calmness their soul longs for may start to manifest in their life (NN in Taurus).
What will be a challenge for this soul in this life will be what to do with their knowledge (Plu in 9th). They will certainly have a great deal of understanding and wisdom that they could impart, while knowing instinctively that this knowledge isn't really "theirs", that it comes from the Source itself. Nevertheless they will feel the need to share this with those who may be able to benefit from it (natural law). Attempts to share it may not be very fruitful in the beginning, as they may find it extremely difficult to communicate it in ways that make sense to the average person, and thus feel alienated in a way. This would also contrast (the natural quincunx between the 9th and 4th houses) with the need for daily emotional involvement (Venus in 4th) - all of this forcing them to see meaning (Plu in 9th) in daily life in a different (quincunx) way. As this process unfolds they will make the internal adjustments necessary so that the meaning that they are seeking manifests within them (Venus in Pisces in 4th). As they gradually reject (Neptune in 11th) subtle layers of emotional dependency (Venus in 4th) within themselves, a sense of self control (NN in Taurus) will gradually replace the subtlest sense of not really knowing themselves, who they are at the deepest of levels, that they would have felt from birth (Venus in Pisces in 4th).
Once these adjustments are made they will tap into creative ways (NN in 5th) to communicate to others, in ways that they are better understood, and this will help overcome their reluctance to engage widely with others on a social and collective level (which Venus in full phase opposition to Mars/Plu requires them to do). Nevertheless, with PPP in 3rd house they will inevitably encounter many different viewpoints to their own and this will help them to further clarify their message to others, and to also improve their ability to relate to others in terms and language the people they are communicating with can actually understand. They may provoke harsh criticisms and denial from others as their message will embody universal truths that may challenge the cherished beliefs of the average person. However, given their evolutionary stage they would not be identified anymore with their truth, knowing that what they have to say is true in itself, and that those who can benefit from it will be drawn to it, and relate to it naturally, without any need for coercion. They would tend to avoid engaging in confrontations unless prompted inwardly by Source itself to do so, and yet they still wouldn't be attached to the outcome of such exchanges.
*********************
I'll appreciate any feedback you can give me Rad on this so far.
Thank you and blessings,
Upasika
Hi Upasika,
Your EA reasoning is exceptional, and the various dynamics and possibilities that the symbols in this paradigm are accurate. There are other possibilities within the totality of these symbols, but the one's you have detailed in your analysis are accurate within that totality. Bravo !
God Bless, Rad
Thanks Rad
Hi Practice Group,
Need to know, yet again, who wishes to continue with our practice charts, and if those that do want to start a new paradigm. Let me know.
God Bless, Rad
I'm in.
I'm happy continuing with this one- to parctice interpretation with this soul in the middle of the 3rd stage spiritual. I feel this is very helpful for refining interpretive skill/appropriate application of ea states. I'm also happy moving on to a new paraidgm.
I'm just happy ;)
Ari Moshe
Hi Rad,
I'd love to keep going, either with this chart or a new one, but won't be able to.
I have medical treatment due to start soon, and need to focus on preparation for that now. But I'm very keen on this thread and whenever I can I will be back to continue here.
Thanks so much for it.
blessings Upasika
Rad
either or - yes, i'd like to continue.
if we go with this into 2nd substage of 3rd spiritual, do you envision us writing at the same detail level, or more of a discussion of the shifts? or?
thanks
Goddess Bless,
Bradley
Hi Rad,
I had been grappling with this last practice chart for some reason. It seems when I am in meditation or just relaxing, the intuitive flow works really well. But as soon as I sit down in front of the computer to structure the paradigm, my mind gets filled with "too much information" - and so I'm actually trying to "begin" this assignment. I have 36 pages of research. I'll try again - and hopefully will put something together in the next day or two. Thanks for your understanding.
Linda
Hi Linda,
You addressed Rad so I'm not answering in his place by any means, but I just wanted to say that, believe me, I f*%#ing know what you mean! I know how utterly frustrating this can be...all the intuitive perceptions just come flooding in, and when you actually sit down to connect these various understandings and perceptions into one integrated context, the picture has becomes SO large, and SO saturated with content, the mind freezes up and makes it seem like you have no understanding at all. Yep..I know it.
Have you tried the method suggested by Wolf by outlining your points, and then overviewing that work to identify repeating themes? Once you find repeating themes you now have a natural priority for what to focus on. ...or are you like me where you start writing down your info for point #1, and point #1 turns into 36 pages?
One thing to inwardly affirm to yourself in this process Linda, is that the VALUE IS IN THE EFFORT. I know that it can feel like the effort being put in is utterly disproportionate to the simple task at hand. And I know it can seem like the extent of your effort may never be seen or evident outside of the confines of your own mind..this is not true: Goddess sees it, and the inner teachers of this work see it. I also know that when the intuition is full of material, that its natural to want all of that material to be represented in your work..and that its natural to want to demonstrate your best work..and that its natural to want to demonstrate your best work by incorporating all of the material and insight in your brain. For me, I will often spend hours and sometimes days trying to integrate and articulate something, and in the end, I delete 90% of what I had written because what was truly pertinent in the end was simple.
Someone who I think reflects an utterly wonderful example of prioritizing and simplifying the bottom lines is Deva. The woman's comprehension of this work could fill the capacity of this entire message board, yet you'll notice the input she provides is always artfully prioritized, simple, and humble. And because of that the knowledge she shares packs a punch.
#1: I would just say to you, that if you allow yourself to be patient and accepting of your own unique and specific process, and allow your brain to operate naturally, in its own time, and make an effort to prioritize what is pertinent and what is not, there will come a point when you will find that all of the information that has been flooding out your poor intuitive structure will at some point naturally assimilate ITSELF, and that awareness will be readily available when you need it via inductive thought.
#2: God'dess knows how sincere you are Linda about this work, and it is endearingly reflected in the absolute effort you are making that no one else ever sees (with the exception of those I mentioned before). When we make our own effort, such as you are, God'dess will provide help that is AT MINIMUM proportionate to our own efforts. The results of that help is not always immediately *perceived*, but at some point you will find new momentum and new ease in translating your perceptions into an assimilated whole. This stuff happens in god's time...and I know this from direct experience. the key is to demonstrate humility in embracing god's time.
#3: Recognize that we currently have transiting uranus rx and jupiter rx in PISCES in a conjunction, and neptune is conjunct chiron in aquarius. This is creating an erratic effect within the brain and intuitive function therein. The collective human brain is undergoing structural changes and impacting the nature of how reality itself is perceived, so this is something to factor in, in terms of why your thoughts and intuitions are operating as they are.
We'll see what else Rad has to say..
God Bless,
Stacie
Perhaps Rad will have some.....candy? hehe, just noticed this.. i could delete it but instead i think i'll torture my inner virgo and let it stay ;)
Bless you Stacie!
Thank you so much for your KINDNESS. One minute I'm bawling and the next smiling...! The fact is I don't think I've ever been able to "capture" my intuition in these practice charts due to the overwhelming amounts of information. Your helpful advice has motivated me to approach this in a different way. How insightful about Uranus, Jupiter, Neptune and Chiron! I will be patient and try again.
*You're an angel!*
Stacie thank you for sharing that! I found everything you wrote very insightful and helpful for me as well.
With Love,
Ari Moshe
Bless your heart Linda, I am smiling to know that you are smiling. And Ari, I'm glad you drew benefit as well. I too am benefited through this exchange. As the next practice round unfolds lets make the effort to apply some of this and see what new growth may emerge.
God'dess Bless
Stacie
The core of that doubt, at the first part of the 3rd Stage Spiritual, is whether the Soul and the ego it has created is 'capable' enough to do what it is being asked to do from within by God. And that is a direct result of coming out of the 2nd Stage spiritual where there were lives, as you pointed out, of spiritual delusions of grandeur, and the realities that then created. Within this the self doubt of the Soul is realizing that by doing what is necessary of it, it's role on behalf of God, the types of experiences it will create because of this which will include massive levels of projection by others upon the Soul, and the persecution that is linked with this. The doubt will inwardly manifest as 'am I able to withstand this, and, what about the affects on others who love me, and know me for who I actually am'. And that of course will be in reference to the Soul's family of origin, and the Souls own family that it must create in this life in order to access the Soul's emotional body: the N.Node ruler in the 4th. Within this the Soul will doubt itself because of, as you pointed out, the impurities that remain within itself. That, of itself, has created in inner storehouse of guilt that then fuels this issue of doubt.
God Bless, Rad
Hi Rad,
I'm working on this practice chart now, but need at least 3 more days. Please do go ahead and post the new paradigm so that the others can begin. I really don't want to hold anyone back. Thanks!
I'm not sure that anyone is in an urgent hurry to start the next paradigm right "now". How do people feel about starting in a few days?...anyone itching to get going right away?
If the group is indeed ready to move on Linda, I will be available to you for questions and to provide feedback on your analysis if you like. I imagine you could also post it for Rad in a separate thread. Let's first get a read on where the group is at..
Stacie
Hi Stacie,
Thank you so much for your kind offer to answer questions and provide feedback! So far your advice is really working for me. I have read through the 36 pages of research (;D) and, as you suggested, I've made an Outline. Keeping in mind the evolutionary condition, I then ticked the notes that I thought would apply to this paradigm.
There are a few themes emerging (I think), and I'm getting a few ideas on how to proceed with the structure. I am seeing [Edit] two repeating themes only so far: Neptune balsamic conjunct SN - Venus in Pisces (ruler of NN) - PPP Pisces. So perhaps this means that where Neptune is completing something from the past (SN), Venus continues with a Neptunian/Piscean theme as it rules the NN - with the PPP in Pisces being the Soul's intention for this life (Pisces 3rd) - and of course all areas continue to evolve.
The other repeating theme is that Pluto's ruler is Mercury - and Mercury is the natural ruler of the 3rd house which contains the PPP.
Do you think I'm on the right track?
I perceive a dichotomy operating in this chart that is puzzling me, namely, Mars in new phase conjunction to Pluto. Pluto represents the "past" behaviours that the Soul is trying to metamorphose or throw off, yet Mars is initiating something completely new at the same time. Could it mean that the Soul is initiating a course of action to throw off the past conditioning in a "new" and instinctual kind of way? (and perhaps dealing with issues around suppressed anger?)
Next I will take your advice...
"Someone who I think reflects an utterly wonderful example of prioritizing and simplifying the bottom lines is Deva. The woman's comprehension of this work could fill the capacity of this entire message board, yet you'll notice the input she provides is always artfully prioritized, simple, and humble."
Thank you, Stacie, for this opportunity and for taking an interest in this thread.
Hi Linda,
It's fine to take three more days. There is no hurry to start the new paradigm. I had asked the group earlier if they wanted to start a new one since there had been no activity in this thread for sometime. As long as out little group wants to keep working on this paradigm it is of course fine with me. In fact the next we start will be this same paradigm but then analyze it from the 2nd Stage within the 3rd Stage Spiritual so we can understand the natural evolutionary progression with that Stage, using the same paradigm. And, again, it is very useful to read through what others in our group has already posted on this paradigm so as to help you understand it.
The new phase Mars/Pluto correlates to this Soul beginning a brand new development within itself, evolutionarily speaking that is symbolized within the paradigm itself. This would be true in ANY chart that you see such symbolism. And that new cycle starts by understanding the past that has brought it to the present life being lived. And that past is seen not only is Pluto's natal position by House and sign, and the aspects it is making to other planets, i..e Mars, it's opposition to the Pisces planets, but of course by the S.Node in it's own House and Sign and the aspects it is also making to other planets. In this case we also have Pluto and Mars also sextile that S.Node, and trining the N.Node which then means that both Nodes, and the Houses they are in, and their planetary rulers by their own House and Sign, have been acted upon before the current life. The new phase Mars/Pluto, in the current life, then means that all of these prior dynamics are now being evolved in a new way. This can certainly include an inner anger, Mars, and the reasons for that anger, and the manifestation of that anger and why.
God Bless, Rad
Ok Rad...I see you just posted. Since I already wrote this stuff gonna go ahead and post it anyways.
Quote from: LindaThere are a few themes emerging (I think), and I'm getting a few ideas on how to proceed with the structure. I am seeing [Edit] two repeating themes only so far: Neptune balsamic conjunct SN - Venus in Pisces (ruler of NN) - PPP Pisces. So perhaps this means that where Neptune is completing something from the past (SN), Venus continues with a Neptunian/Piscean theme as it rules the NN - with the PPP in Pisces being the Soul's intention for this life (Pisces 3rd) - and of course all areas continue to evolve.
Yes, great. And to answer your other question..yes..you do want to start with the bottom line of pluto to understand what the underlying desires and intentions are for the soul, because everything else in the chart is filtered from that bottom line...meaning all other symbols will have no meaning outside of this bottom line. So pluto is the most critical step. After pluto you'll incorporate the south node..then and its ruler...north node..then north node ruler.
Now to grasp an understanding pf repeating themes, you'll want to understand all the symbols that are within that theme as a living DYNAMIC. The following steps can naturally promote this kind of understanding. But before I go into this, I just want to say that if you find this info is having an overwhelming affect on your brain and not an affect where something "˜clicks', then please don't try to take it in just yet. Jut let me know if it's too much and I can restate things more simply. Ok, repeating themes: And again the goal is to understand this as a "˜dynamic', not a group of facts.
First thing you want to do is be clear about the function in consciousness that a symbol is representing: south node symbolizes what?..prior life ego structures that the soul has created to develop/act upon the evolutionary desires of the soul. And as you pointed out, that south node is in a balsamic conjunction to neptune. What is the function of neptune? And what is the significance of that function within a soul who has just evolved into the very beginning of the 3rd stage spiritual?
Once you're clear about the natural function of those symbols, you'll want to factor in what the conjunction means for how those functions operate. So we have the south node function in a condition of fusion with the neptune function. The nature of that fusion creates an osmosis between them..meaning that both functions are "˜fused' together so to speak, such that they operate in instinctual unity. Each symbol is still reflecting its own function, but the other symbol/function is an intrinsic part of it. Does that make sense? So the function of the south node is being directly defined by the function of neptune..and the function of neptune is being directly defined by the function of south node...they operate together as one. Now within this, there's an intention in that fusion..and that intention is to culminate something (balsamic). Reflect on these things and let the meaning come to you...try and "˜feel' what it means in terms of an inner experience rather than a purely mental idea (and remember to keep the backdrop of 3rd stage spiritual as you're doing this). The goal here is to arrive at a general grasp within yourself of what these functions are, what they are doing together, and how they are doing it. Once you've done that, you'll apply it to the context of the 11th house..keep it very simple here..try and intuit how the 11th house might be relevant to these functions. When you feel a little "˜ding!' in your gut, chances are you have it. Then you'll take that imagery (or feeling, or whatever)..intact..and try to intuit how it's conditioned by the archetype of scorpio. You now have made these living symbols, and by simply focusing on "˜tuning in' to these living symbols, they will begin to reveal the depth of their own story/meaning.
Now you'll move to the next symbol in the repeating theme: venus in pisces. venus in pisces is in what house?..the 4th...the nature of the 4th house reflects the nature of the south node, yes? so the repeating theme is twofold: neptune ruling pisces, and 4th house/sn correlating to emotional consciousness/structure of ego. So once again, start by reflecting on the function venus serves in consciousness. Think about how and why that function would be coming through the 4th house..how and why it's operating through the archetype of pisces Then you want to link this to the fact that the neptune/south node are facilitating the development of the venus' function, through the very nature of their own function (neptune ruling venus). Reflect on how these functions (venus and neptune/south node) are reinforcing each another in the soul's consciousness/life..the types of experiences this might produce..and why.
Then you'll follow the same blueprint by incorporating the north node. The function of the north node is what? How would that function operate in the context of the 5th house? ...taurus...and so on. How is venus in pisces in the 4th, relative to its own development being linked to the vehicle of neptune/sn in the 11th, meant to aid the development of the north node in taurus in the 5th? ......etc.
Anyway, I don't know if that's helpful, but something you can try if it resonates.
QuoteThe other repeating theme is that Pluto's ruler is Mercury - and Mercury is the natural ruler of the 3rd house which contains the PPP.
Do you think I'm on the right track?
Yes!
QuoteI perceive a dichotomy operating in this chart that is puzzling me, namely, Mars in new phase conjunction to Pluto. Pluto represents the "past" behaviours that the Soul is trying to metamorphose or throw off, yet Mars is initiating something completely new at the same time. Could it mean that the Soul is initiating a course of action to throw off the past conditioning in a "new" and instinctual kind of way? (and perhaps dealing with issues around suppressed anger?
The way to understand the new phase pluto/mars, relative to pluto reflecting past and mars in new phase reflecting something...well..new!, is this: in arriving at this point of a brand new cycle, the "˜past' that is applying here is the one that recently culminated in the previous cycle. Your last question/statement depends largely on what you mean by conditioning, so perhaps you can elaborate.
[/quote]
Right On Linda, you're determination is beautiful.
Stacie
Thank you Rad and Stacie for your great assistance!
I will take a step by step approach, Stacie, and wait for that 'ding!' My Mercury is Rx, you see, and Pluto's moving thru my 3rd house. So there's a burning desire...
Rad, I haven't read the others, because it has been difficult working out "why" they have written what they've written.
Correction: I had read Upasika's Practice Chart as soon as he posted it...and thought it was excellent!
He really captured the gentleness of this Soul, and I could "feel" the accuracy of this paradigm flowing so well through his words.
I usually do read others' work, but this time I wanted to attempt it purely from my own self.
Hi Linda,
Please remember that you have worked on the practice chart before now, and the one's that you have have done so you have done very well with. In those efforts your analysis of the paradigms that we had worked with were well reasoned relative to the 'why' of what your deductions were. And that 'why' of course is directly related to the archetypes themselves: Houses, Signs, and Planets from an evolutionary point of view. When you have not deduced something correctly is of course when I would then post my comments accordingly, and you would then adjust/ learn from there. That's my role as the moderator of this thread. It's the reason I wanted to start it in the first place: to 'practice'. So I can only encourage you to keep going remembering that the VALUE IS ALWAYS IN THE EFFORT.
God Bless, Rad
Pluto/Virgo/9th conjunct Mars (new phase)
Pluto Polarity Point/Pisces/3rd
SN/Scorpio/11th conjunct Neptune (balsamic phase)
SN Ruler Pluto
NN/Taurus/5th
NN Ruler Venus/Pisces/4th
Beginning of 3rd Stage Spiritual
The Mars/Pluto conjunction means a culmination in Pluto's previous cycle, and the beginning of a brand new development symbolized by this chart. Pluto/Mars sextile SN trine NN means that the Nodes, houses and their rulers have been acted upon before the current life. With Mars/Pluto opposite Venus/4th the Soul is faced with relationship karma, issues around self-image and sexuality. Balsamic Neptune/SN indicates ongoing lessons around dreams and illusion.
The past can be understood by Pluto's natal position in the 9th house, where he (the Soul) possesses natural wisdom as a natural teacher. For many lifetimes he had the evolutionary need for freedom and travel to fulfill a special destiny to uniquely express his teachings and understanding of Natural Law to small groups of people who resonate to his unity with the Source, and in so doing, became fundamentally alienated from his own culture and society. His intense intuitive faculty and prophetic visions into cosmic forces could confuse others, and so he and his transforming effect was sometimes avoided.
In the past, with Pluto in Virgo, the lesson of service to others - developed through intense self-analysis, guilt and atonement - meant that his personal needs were sacrificed in order to fulfill his teaching purpose. All traces of self-glorification had been purged, since coming out of the 2nd stage spiritual where he passed through being 'full of himself' as a teacher. The natural introspection of Virgo allowed (and continues to allow) him to adjust the past stagnant internal patterns that were preventing his ongoing evolutionary intentions.
The SN/Scorpio/11th represents the past egoic structures that were created for acting out his evolutionary desires. He has a unique and idealistic way of expressing his spiritual teachings to others, but in the process absorbs collective pain or impurities from the group. It was necessary that he remove the delusive holy mask, by shattering his pristine reality through psychic or spiritual trauma. These adjustments resulted in a need for total detachment, to become an extreme loner, so that he could purify himself through metamorphosis, healing with light, and deep meditation in unity with the Source.
Since his Soul's consciousness has finally shifted from his subjective ego to his Soul, there is a need to culminate the repetitive past behavioural patterns associated with this chart, and to begin a completely new cycle within it. He has a need to liberate from and exhaust old patterns associated with dreams and illusions around his relationships and self-image through the process of surrender, detachment, meditation, spiritual methods, and transcendence through sexual energy. To purify himself, he has the ability to osmose the healing power of god into himself, and to evolve further. Although he is firmly unified with the Source, he has yet to purify some past egoic structures in terms of this chart.
The nature of the 4th house trine the SN reflects his self-image and emotional consciousness. With Venus in the 4th house he experiences many different emotional states altering his self-image, which relate to his displaced emotions from childhood or from past lives. He has a deep silent expectation of getting his emotional needs fulfilled by attachment to friends within his group, since he has spent lifetimes giving of himself to others, but when this love is not reciprocated, leads to extreme emotional experiences, such as displaced anger which is then suppressed (Venus opposite Mars).
Hiding behind a spiritual persona in the past defined his inner self-image which lead to denial and compensation. The inner standard of judgment became masochistic, and the self-defeating behaviour allowed others to define who he was. He had to crack through the self-created illusions around his self-image. Since the SN/Scorpio trines Venus, he is completely aware of the need to purge impurities within himself which created a pattern of guilt - punishment - atonement - suppressed anger - denial - compensation - and disillusionment. Therefore he needed periods of withdrawal to do inner work so that illusion no longer defined his reality.
The function of Venus is to embrace the value and meaning in his relationships. Venus is expressed through the 4th house as the ability to relate to others on an equal emotional basis, by tuning in to others' needs for empathy, nurturing, compassion, forgiveness, and love, and being able to receive the same in return. With Venus opposite Pluto he is now forced to come out of his shell to relate, to cooperate and to share himself with others...and to evolve through the emotional body. This means involvement with others (either sex) in relationship or friendship to experience really listening, touching, holding, affection, food preparation, nurturing, and sacred sex...and with Venus in Pisces, giving and receiving unconditional love.
Since Mars tightly conjuncts Pluto and opposes Venus, he is learning about sexuality on an 'equal' basis with a partner, which means learning sexual methods and techniques that not only allow an instinctive and spontaneous enjoyment of his own sexuality, but that serve and please the partner's sexual needs as well. He is able to burn off the raw Mars/Pluto energies by engaging in sacred sex and sharing himself in relationship with others. He is learning to balance his personal needs with his special destiny in service to others.
Venus in the 4th house is teaching him to become more secure within himself, so that his instinctual survival response is quietened. Venus trine Neptune reinforce each other through compassion, forgiveness and love, so that he is able to give and receive the love that he needs for his emotional stability. He learns to become receptive to all his needs (emotional, physical, spiritual) being met in his 'relationship' to the Divine.
All the prior dynamics are being evolved in a new way, and this may include anger since Mars closely conjuncts natal Pluto/Virgo. Crisis and self-humiliation were created as vehicles to purify the unconscious natural (?) guilt based on past mistakes. Suppressed anger was the result of self-criticism, unfulfilled sexual needs, and a masochistic archetype in unequal relationships due to giving too much, and 'hiding.'
The function of the NN is the approach taken to develop the PPP/Pisces/3rd. Through the NN in the 5th house he is able to develop a new creative self-expression and new purpose in this life which will allow a healthy self-respect to develop. The SN had always allowed him to observe life in a detached way, but never really experience it. Venus, relative to Neptune/SN, aids the development of the NN/Taurus/5th by finding the "value" and beauty in reality. It allows him to come out of a dream state, and to feel down-to-earth goodness and warmth, and to develop a powerful commitment to his convictions.
The difficulty in communicating his intuitive understanding is motivating him to learn how to communicate in a logical and succinct way. Through the PPP, he is able to express a very creative imagination which can be used to teach Natural Law to others via poetry, metaphor or allegory. Since Pluto's ruler is Mercury, and Mercury naturally rules the 3rd house, the transition to find new ways to communicate his intuitive visions and natural teachings is facilitated by Venus/Pisces/4th by sensitively finding the right words to teach others about Natural Law and the importance of caring for Mother Earth.
~ ~ ~
Thanks so much to Stacie and Rad for your assistance with this one!
Hi Linda,
Quote from: Linda on Sep 19, 2010, 12:52 AM
Pluto/Virgo/9th conjunct Mars (new phase)
Pluto Polarity Point/Pisces/3rd
SN/Scorpio/11th conjunct Neptune (balsamic phase)
SN Ruler Pluto
NN/Taurus/5th
NN Ruler Venus/Pisces/4th
Beginning of 3rd Stage Spiritual
The Mars/Pluto conjunction means a culmination in Pluto's previous cycle, and the beginning of a brand new development symbolized by this chart. Pluto/Mars sextile SN trine NN means that the Nodes, houses and their rulers have been acted upon before the current life. With Mars/Pluto opposite Venus/4th the Soul is faced with relationship karma, issues around self-image and sexuality. Balsamic Neptune/SN indicates ongoing lessons around dreams and illusion.
*********************************************************************
The conjunction of Neptune and the S.Node in Scorpio in the 11th, which is ruled by the Pluto/Mars new phase conjunction, has much more to do that just dreams and illusions. Read the chapter in Pluto 1 that correlates with Pluto in the 11th House and see what else you can add to this Linda.
***************************************************************************
The past can be understood by Pluto's natal position in the 9th house, where he (the Soul) possesses natural wisdom as a natural teacher. For many lifetimes he had the evolutionary need for freedom and travel to fulfill a special destiny to uniquely express his teachings and understanding of Natural Law to small groups of people who resonate to his unity with the Source, and in so doing, became fundamentally alienated from his own culture and society. His intense intuitive faculty and prophetic visions into cosmic forces could confuse others, and so he and his transforming effect was sometimes avoided.
***************************************************************************
The alienation from the Soul's own culture of birth is not indicated in these symbols. It is entirely possible that the Soul has been born into cultures that themselves were living in various ways the very Natural Laws that this Soul has, and does, desire to understand, and share with others. These symbols simply means a Soul who had, and does, desire to understand the TOTALITY of those Natural Laws as they relate to the Nature and Origin of the Cosmos in the first place, and the subsequent desire to share with others that natural knowledge. Thus, the desire to travel in order to experience that totality via the diversity that is offered in a variety of cultures and the different lands that the Soul would travel.
***************************************************************************
In the past, with Pluto in Virgo, the lesson of service to others - developed through intense self-analysis, guilt and atonement - meant that his personal needs were sacrificed in order to fulfill his teaching purpose. All traces of self-glorification had been purged, since coming out of the 2nd stage spiritual where he passed through being 'full of himself' as a teacher. The natural introspection of Virgo allowed (and continues to allow) him to adjust the past stagnant internal patterns that were preventing his ongoing evolutionary intentions.
**************************************************************************
The Soul's personal needs also include his desire, need. to share, give, and teach others.
***************************************************************************
The SN/Scorpio/11th represents the past egoic structures that were created for acting out his evolutionary desires. He has a unique and idealistic way of expressing his spiritual teachings to others, but in the process absorbs collective pain or impurities from the group. It was necessary that he remove the delusive holy mask, by shattering his pristine reality through psychic or spiritual trauma. These adjustments resulted in a need for total detachment, to become an extreme loner, so that he could purify himself through metamorphosis, healing with light, and deep meditation in unity with the Source.
**************************************************************************
What types of 'psychic' and spiritual traumas do you think the Soul has created for itself ? And why ? What types of collective impurities and pain has the Soul absorbed, and why ? What does 'purify himself through metamorphosis mean ? healing with light ?
**************************************************************************
Since his Soul's consciousness has finally shifted from his subjective ego to his Soul, there is a need to culminate the repetitive past behavioural patterns associated with this chart, and to begin a completely new cycle within it. He has a need to liberate from and exhaust old patterns associated with dreams and illusions around his relationships and self-image through the process of surrender, detachment, meditation, spiritual methods, and transcendence through sexual energy. To purify himself, he has the ability to osmose the healing power of god into himself, and to evolve further. Although he is firmly unified with the Source, he has yet to purify some past egoic structures in terms of this chart.
**************************************************************************
What old patterns associated with dreams and illusions around his relationships and self image are you referring too ?
***************************************************************************
The nature of the 4th house trine the SN reflects his self-image and emotional consciousness. With Venus in the 4th house he experiences many different emotional states altering his self-image, which relate to his displaced emotions from childhood or from past lives. He has a deep silent expectation of getting his emotional needs fulfilled by attachment to friends within his group, since he has spent lifetimes giving of himself to others, but when this love is not reciprocated, leads to extreme emotional experiences, such as displaced anger which is then suppressed (Venus opposite Mars).
****************************************************************************
What displaced emotions would that be ? This Soul does not have attachments to friends within his group at all. Just the opposite: a total detachment. The issue of disillusionment is much more about the Soul's expectations, S.Node in Scorpio, Neptune conjunct, of others capacity to apply the knowledge that the Soul has to teach. The disillusionment has much more to do with the Souls emotional ASSUMPTIONS about others in terms of the Soul's capacity to see any other Souls inherent potentials, of who another Soul actually is, and EXPECTING THEM TO BE THAT. And, when that does not happen, the utter sense of disillusionment that comes out of that. This is then one of the deeper meanings of having his Pluto/Mars in Virgo in the 9th: to accept people as they actually are, and what they are, in reality, capable of doing and not doing: accepting this as the state of affairs here on Earth.
*************************************************************************
Hiding behind a spiritual persona in the past defined his inner self-image which lead to denial and compensation. The inner standard of judgment became masochistic, and the self-defeating behaviour allowed others to define who he was. He had to crack through the self-created illusions around his self-image. Since the SN/Scorpio trines Venus, he is completely aware of the need to purge impurities within himself which created a pattern of guilt - punishment - atonement - suppressed anger - denial - compensation - and disillusionment. Therefore he needed periods of withdrawal to do inner work so that illusion no longer defined his reality.
******************************************************************************
Denial of what ? And how would the 'compensation' manifest ? This is not a Soul who would allow others to define what it is. It is a Soul that has attracted a diversity of others 'projections', 11th House S.Node with Neptune, as to who they think that the Soul is. It is these ongoing projections that have also served to create a state of disillusionment and bewilderment within the Soul as to 'why' this has occurred, and is continuing to occur. So the real question becomes WHY is this ? What illusions do you think defined his reality ?
***************************************************************************
The function of Venus is to embrace the value and meaning in his relationships. Venus is expressed through the 4th house as the ability to relate to others on an equal emotional basis, by tuning in to others' needs for empathy, nurturing, compassion, forgiveness, and love, and being able to receive the same in return. With Venus opposite Pluto he is now forced to come out of his shell to relate, to cooperate and to share himself with others...and to evolve through the emotional body. This means involvement with others (either sex) in relationship or friendship to experience really listening, touching, holding, affection, food preparation, nurturing, and sacred sex...and with Venus in Pisces, giving and receiving unconditional love.
Since Mars tightly conjuncts Pluto and opposes Venus, he is learning about sexuality on an 'equal' basis with a partner, which means learning sexual methods and techniques that not only allow an instinctive and spontaneous enjoyment of his own sexuality, but that serve and please the partner's sexual needs as well. He is able to burn off the raw Mars/Pluto energies by engaging in sacred sex and sharing himself in relationship with others. He is learning to balance his personal needs with his special destiny in service to others.
Venus in the 4th house is teaching him to become more secure within himself, so that his instinctual survival response is quietened. Venus trine Neptune reinforce each other through compassion, forgiveness and love, so that he is able to give and receive the love that he needs for his emotional stability. He learns to become receptive to all his needs (emotional, physical, spiritual) being met in his 'relationship' to the Divine.
All the prior dynamics are being evolved in a new way, and this may include anger since Mars closely conjuncts natal Pluto/Virgo. Crisis and self-humiliation were created as vehicles to purify the unconscious natural (?) guilt based on past mistakes. Suppressed anger was the result of self-criticism, unfulfilled sexual needs, and a masochistic archetype in unequal relationships due to giving too much, and 'hiding.'
The function of the NN is the approach taken to develop the PPP/Pisces/3rd. Through the NN in the 5th house he is able to develop a new creative self-expression and new purpose in this life which will allow a healthy self-respect to develop. The SN had always allowed him to observe life in a detached way, but never really experience it. Venus, relative to Neptune/SN, aids the development of the NN/Taurus/5th by finding the "value" and beauty in reality. It allows him to come out of a dream state, and to feel down-to-earth goodness and warmth, and to develop a powerful commitment to his convictions.
**************************************************************************
It is not so much as a 'dream' state that the Soul lives within as it is a state of cosmic consciousness, a state of awareness that involves the whole of the Universe as manifesting on this Earth. This real issue with the N.Node ruler in the 4th is relearning how to live on this Earth as most people do which is vastly different that where the Soul itself lives within itself. Thus the evolutionary need to create the Soul's own family, children, etc. And, thus, learning how to relate to others in general from this common place of reality so that they inherent teachings that this Soul is destined to do can be received and applied in a much larger way than in other lifetimes.
*************************************************************************
The difficulty in communicating his intuitive understanding is motivating him to learn how to communicate in a logical and succinct way. Through the PPP, he is able to express a very creative imagination which can be used to teach Natural Law to others via poetry, metaphor or allegory. Since Pluto's ruler is Mercury, and Mercury naturally rules the 3rd house, the transition to find new ways to communicate his intuitive visions and natural teachings is facilitated by Venus/Pisces/4th by sensitively finding the right words to teach others about Natural Law and the importance of caring for Mother Earth.
~ ~ ~
Thanks so much to Stacie and Rad for your assistance with this one!
Linda: you have made a very good effort here. Please review the comments made and see then if you can apply them. If so, please resubmit for further review.
God Bless, Rad
Hi Rad,
Thank you for your review of my Practice Chart above. I have attempted to answer your questions:
Your quote: The conjunction of Neptune and the S.Node in Scorpio in the 11th, which is ruled by the Pluto/Mars new phase conjunction, has much more to do that just dreams and illusions. Read the chapter in Pluto 1 that correlates with Pluto in the 11th House and see what else you can add to this Linda.
The Neptune/SN conjunction in Scorpio/11th indicates that through past and continuing humility of service, acceptance of the Divine Will, and identification of unity with the Source, he has been sharing and teaching the totality of natural laws in a "˜spiritual group' of followers or disciples. It is possible that some past life conditions have not been resolved, but it is more likely that his highly-developed Neptune has been brought forward into the current life. With Neptune in the 11th house perhaps he had been too trusting or too innocent of the group, when challenges or confrontations occurred, bringing about emotional shocks, and severing of friendships. Certainly he would have suffered great disillusionment when his expectations of changing the world could not come about, and when his followers could not fulfill the potential he saw in them.
What types of 'psychic' and spiritual traumas do you think the Soul has created for itself? And why?
The types of psychic or spiritual traumas could have been that he became overly attached (Scorpio) or identified with certain visions or knowledge. He would have had to realize that some visions come true, while other would not. He could have felt abandoned by god when severely traumatic experiences befell himself or his followers. His deep compassion and fundamental wisdom attracted others to him, but could also have attracted those who, feeling threatened, persecuted him, and projected false judgments, motives and intentions onto him. His pure nature could expose the impurities and dishonesty in others. Putting down invalid forms of spirituality such as religion could have attracted persecution. Another problem could have been suffering betrayal, disloyalty or deception by his followers. The lesson was to align his will with a Higher Will, that god determines everything that happens, and to accept the "realities" that take place on earth.
What types of collective impurities and pain has the Soul absorbed, and why?
He would have had such idealistic expectations that injustice, inequality and dishonesty should not exist. He could have absorbed the collective pain of a sick community. These traumas could have caused a total detachment from external reality. He would have intensely desired that his followers remove their egocentric impurities, but suffered intense disillusionment when they could not uphold the potential that he saw in them. He could have absorbed collective trauma that was shared by his group, such as traumatic historical events, disasters, crimes, holocaust, war, death, etc. resulting in displacement, mourning and grief. Since he is entering the early stages of 3rd stage Spiritual, he is committed and attuned to working for the Divine in complete devotion and humility.
What does 'purify himself through metamorphosis mean? Healing with light?
He had just come out of the downfall and humiliation of the 2nd stage Spiritual (delusions of grandeur), which necessitated the need for re-purification (Neptune). Since he had been through almost every kind of life experience imaginable over a multitude of lifetimes he would have experienced many fundamental metamorphoses, giving him the capacity of knowledge of spiritual psychology and spiritual archetypes. He is unified with the Source, The Light, therefore any remaining egocentric impurities are purged. His soul is fundamentally pure and filled with the inner Light of the Source.
What old patterns associated with dreams and illusions around his relationships and self image are you referring to?
Neptune's theme (Neptune conj SN) is carried forward to some extent as it is the ruler of Venus/Pisces/4th (which is the ruler of the NN). He could have been too naively trusting, suffering betrayal, deception or persecution at the hands of others. His high expectations of his followers would have ended in disillusionment. I imagine his 'relationships' to friends would have affected his emotional states and his inner sense of self, which would have been very changeable (Pisces) and deeply sensitive.
Linda's quote: Hiding behind a spiritual persona in the past defined his inner self-image which lead to denial and compensation.
Denial of what? And how would the 'compensation' manifest? This is not a Soul who would allow others to define what it is. It is a Soul that has attracted a diversity of others 'projections', 11th House S.Node with Neptune, as to who they think that the Soul is. It is these ongoing projections that have also served to create a state of disillusionment and bewilderment within the Soul as to 'why' this has occurred, and is continuing to occur. So the real question becomes WHY is this? What illusions do you think defined his reality?
I was referring to the "spiritual persona" in the 2nd stage Spiritual, which could hold remnants of impurities or illusions around his self-image, and denial of who he really was. I thought the 4th house was highlighted because it relates to the "egocentric past" and the 11th house contains "the record of everything in the unconscious." I didn't think this Soul was completely god-realized just yet, as there are 7 levels, and perhaps he is just at the 1st level of god-realization. But you say, the Soul has attracted a diversity of "˜projections' from others. The reason for these projections is due to the fact that the Soul is fundamentally pure, and naturally exposes the impurities in others. He is like a living example of purity that exposes to others their falseness and attachment to man-made laws. The illusions that defined his reality in the past were that he had a vision to change the world, he believed in others, he saw their potential, he saw god in them, but suffered immense disillusionment when they could not live up to his expectations.
Hi Linda,
Really good Linda. You are demonstrating that, indeed, you are 'getting' how the interactions within the paradigm work. Your follow-up reflects this. Yeah.
God Bless, Rad
Really great!! Glad I'm getting there, slowly but surely. Thanks so much Rad!
Hi Practice Group,
So let me know if you are all ready to move on ? And, if so, if you still want to work with the last paradigm but shift it to the 2nd Stage Spiritual versus a brand new paradigm to work with ...........
God Bless, Rad
Hi Rad,
I would love that- to continue with this just at second stage spiritual. I feel that would be a great learning experience.
God Bless,
Ari Moshe
Hi Rad,
It was beautiful learning about a "Spiritual" soul.
I would love to learn more...so yes, going on to the 2nd sub-stage
would be a good idea.
Love.............Linda
yes,
2nd substage of 3rd spiritual
thanks
bradley
Hi Practice Group,
Ok, let's move ahead then, and continue with the current paradigm. This time we will put this paradigm in the 2nd level or stage of the 3rd Spiritual Evolutionary condition.
Let have a go at it !
God Bless, Rad
EA Assignment: Mars waxing conjunct Pluto Virgo 9th, sn balsamic neptune conjunct Scorpio 11th, nn ruler Venus Pisces 4th in waning (full) opposition to Pluto. Early 3rd Stage Spiritual.
We know this is a soul who has journeyed thru many many lifetimes and a vast array of life experiences over many many cultures. In this, this soul has completed it's liberation from the creation of more karma which has it's source in the ego. This souls only reason for continuing to reincarnate on planet earth is to be in service to the Source - to act as a natural teacher relative to where and when God/ess leads him/her to do so.
S/he has encountered the full spectrum of human psychological archetypes, beliefs, cosmologies, metaphysics and religious concepts (evolution 3rd stage spiritual). All of these human phenomenon have gone thru intense evaluation.(pluto virgo as ruler sn scorpio 11th) After it's alignment with Source(transition from 2nd to 3rd stage spiritual) there had been the total dissolving and liberation of all mental attachment to her/his own "˜knowing'(no longer infused with any egocentricity)(scorpio sn 11/balsamic neptune relative to pluto virgo 9th) Or, to say this another way, the transition into the 3rd stage of spiritual evolution marked the humbling and detachment from the ego's importance of it's own special destiny.
Having reached the middle of the 3rd stage of spiritual evolution, we are now seeing that this soul has learned liberation from all mental visionary ideal hopes. The natural trine from the venus pisces 4th to a balsamic neptune sn conjunct in scorpio 11th, in this evolutionary stage, means liberation from the illusory hope seen in the innate potential within other souls. This soul is coming from a purely compassionate place. The 11th house conjunction here, at this stage, is saying to us that this soul has reached the completion of this process: liberation from any mental illusions which actually lead into egocentric crisis or humility. The only major crisis left(pluto mars virgo) is relative to the broad spectrum which the source reaches thru this soul. The natural magnitude of the collective impression attracts strong energetic responses in the human/seen reality as well as the unseen realms. Unseen attacks from invisible "evil" sources are still increasing do to shear amount of vibrational energy of pure Source light moving thru this soul. Thus, the Virgo archetype here would be played out, relative to waxing mars conjunct pluto virgo 9 , ppp pisces 3rd, and nn taurus 5th, in culmination with the gifts from the past, such that natural discovery/learning of higher levels of divine knowing occur(PPP) while staying completely rooted in her/his special destiny of living as a spiritual teacher(nn taurus 5th) on earth. This soul is internalizing Source such that there is a sense of home inwardly regardless of where the Divine called her/him to travel to.
Rad, is it true hear that, in comparison with the beginning of 3rd, this soul, now mid third, the symbolism of venus pisces 4th reflects this inner spiritual home where ever she/he may roam? Compared to earlier in the early first stages of 3rd spiritual, venus pisces 4th as nn ruler, was symbolic of the role a rooted home and partner -> family played in facilitating her/him to establish her/his core evolutionary purpose(nn 5 taurus)......so, the question is: Is this right that this is changing as above by mid 3rd spiritual, such that this inner Divine identity fulfills the remaining soul desires - which would mean the soul's desire/need to evolve thru sexuality will be waning at this point? Subsequently, family and rooted home are not as important to the current life purpose - Can the symbolism here of the venus pisces 4th(as sn r.....) be as such?
This spiritual level of knowing has been accomplished thru the learning of special mental techniques(sn 11 scorpio and pluto virgo); for example meditation, techniques of thought control, inner astral travel, fully awakened "3rd eye"/psychic knowing, and spiritual rituals and practices which foster the dissolving and release of any form of attachment.
At his/her current evolutionary stage, mid 3rd stage spiritual, this soul's service(mars/pluto virgo 9) will be played out in a way that ripples thru a large percent of the collective conscious mind, as well as strong saturation into the collective unconscious. S/he will become well known in her/his time regionally and beyond for the visionary spiritual teachings which flow forth from the Source within.
This soul has developed a strong intuitive and psychic knowing over the past lifetimes on the planet. This "˜knowing' is not clouded by human consciousness - it is simple alignment with the Source of all knowing. What this soul has been doing is liberating itself from any snares that have potential to knock one off center.(doubt and illusion vs. truth) As a result of this liberation, accelerated growth in spiritual knowing occurs. (sn scorpio 11 relative to mid 3rd spiritual) In the past, this soul has pinpointed all inner blocks(sn scorpio 11) and learned special techniques to eliminate all influences which cloud and distort pure knowing from the Source of all.(pluto sn ruler virgo 9th) Thru these techniques, s/he has learned to fully surrender to the divine, complete it's merging with the God/ess and overcame all related fears.(sn balsamic neptune) S/he has fully embrace the transcendent Divine truth; the core purpose and expression of the life is being in service to God/ess. It is a living changing inner relationship to the Creator rooted in purpose, which moves one in ways that the ego centered consciousness could not ever foresee.(nn ruler venus pisces 4th trine sn) Divine guidance is actualized because this soul's core desire to have this lead all of its time on earth. Like currents within the ocean, the soul moves where her/his inner knowing of Divine leads the way. This divine path of service naturally unfolds and leads this soul to places it is called to go to in this life. The knowing of life "˜blue print' may actually be revealed/flashed thru the conscious mind much earlier than the timing of when s/he goes. The concept(9th) of being in service(virgo) to the divine(neptune sn + 3rd spiritual) metamorphasized (sn scorpio/ruler pluto 9th) into this intimate inner relationship with the Creator.(nn ruler pisces 4th) The resulting humbleness(pluto mars virgo) is naturally visible and compassion and love embodied.(venus pisces 4th)
Over so many lives, this soul has discovered(3rd ppp already active in previous lives) elements which do resonate with Source from many different cultures(pluto 9th virgo relative to sn neptune 11). Since s/he has identified and knows every archetypal element within all the human cultures/psyche, s/he has discovered distortions of natural law, teachings which had arbitrarily/falsely defined distort her/his own soul nature and the nature of God/ess.(sn 11th scorpio) Also, s/he has liberated from all of the ramifications of these distortions of natural law. S/he has manifested a pure higher octave of virgo 9th thru liberation of all distortions of bottom line truth.(sn) So, there is clearly no longer a need to liberate from learned guilt, a byproduct of patriarchal religious distortions and illusions of the true reality of the Creator. Disillusionment has already happened in the past. These illusions were seen through. Now, this evolved "˜man'ifestation of virgo is seen through bringing healing as a spiritual teacher. This is not to imply shame and guilt would not be projected upon her/him. S/he would still attract strong reaction/rejection by some, receive intense criticism because of the depth which one would feel threatened by this soul exposing the truth.
In past lives, s/he has submerged her/himself(sn scorpio) into spiritual communities(sn neptune 11) and into relationship with others of like mind/spirit who had/projected this shared vision and goal. S/he has been living in human cultures, yet resonated energetically in such a way as to be evident s/he is not "˜of it' - in it but not of it.(spiritual state + sn 11, waning sextile pluto/mars to sn). This soul's very natural uniqueness and passion to uncover the ultimate truth and meaning(south node) of human constructed belief systems(pluto) for many lifetimes has been the source of many confrontations from others. (combination of sn scorpio 11 and virgo 9th - These confrontations have occurred in a variety of ways. The special uniqueness of this soul has gone misperceived and misunderstood for various reasons.
One type of past life confrontation is when, within the culture s/he was living in, a group within that culture felt very threatened by his/her rejection/elimination of aspects of their own belief systems.(sourced from patriarchal distortions of God) In a very egocentric fashion, these others would have taken this as personal insult and attack and felt threatened by his/her influence over others within the community. Because of their own egocentric identification and attachments, they were blind to see her/his own true intentions and ended up projecting onto him/her false motives and intentions. This type of confrontation would have its source from within the community at times/lives and in other cases would have been groups met in traveling to other villages/towns/cities. A common projection would be that the message s/he was teaching was only for him/her to have a personal sense of power. Another projection would be others claiming the exact opposite of this soul - that the very words s/he says reveal that s/he has placed her/him self "˜above god'. This, of course, is an outright lie. Another part would be the "˜attack' on their own version of "˜god'(from their, the other's own perspective, of course.)
All these projections and more were simply a direct reflection of their(the other) own need to have power within the group/community/culture. This soul, as a bearer of light and truth, shines upon other's true nature. This makes others, whose real identity and protected persona are not in line, feel threatened of being exposed(often unconsciously). X-ray vision of truth seeing into souls. As a result, we see the need of others to work behind the scenes to "˜take down' and criticize the words being spoken, passive aggressive stings. For example, in one prior lifetime(or more), s/he has abruptly(11) left a community because of all of the above happening around. Even for the safety of it's own life. This is trauma of 11th sn in scorpio.
continued..
Within this soul, s/he sees all this, has compassion for they "˜know not what they do', and is continuing to learn from the criticism and feedback of others. Actually learning to speak words(the virgo 9 + ppp) that are so resonate with truth that others will lack any real argument. Evolving toward the point in which the actual words spoken are of such Source resonance that they(words/teachings) induce a deep sense of humility and of the divine within those who hear the words.
At this evolutionary stage, previous and current confrontations would also be taking place within(internally) while sourced from invisible external sources. Some of these dynamics would have catalyzed crisis in his/her's continued identity with the spiritual community that s/he was in at that time. The false accusatory voice of evil would have, in moments, created a parroting from others in the community, repeating the voice of evil which was being heard on a inner plane -intentioned to inject illusion and caste questioning and doubt from within. S/he is very familiar with distorted group consciousness(neptune scorpio balsamic sn 11) and has inner knowing from which the source it came. The presence of evil would have been around, attempting to instill doubt and fear of speaking out the truth. Also, evil would have worked toward distorting her/his purpose and reason for being somewhere and why s/he was sharing, teaching and speaking. Evil would have used the attracting animosity to inject thoughts of doubt to the path and purpose. Past life memories would also contain times of becoming a martyr/scapegoat because of having the courage to overcome fear and doubt and speak out and confront others in divine compassion. In this life, the venus opposite pluto aspect reflects learning to appropriately chose who to be around, where, when and how to share. In the earlier example of a past life where s/he had to abruptly leave the community, it is clear now the leave was a result of being so intensely projected upon, that remaining the followers would have seen this departure as victimization of their teacher amplified by the outer community still echoing the voice of evil. When s/he came forward and shed light of truth on the comments/actions of others that were rooted in falsehood, confrontations naturally resulted. In this type of past life experience, people who were initially friends would have become enemies. A teacher with a traitor among the students, the "Judas archetype". The resulting crisis lead to only trusting the Divine leading from within and seeing the reasons s/he had co-created these group dynamics/experiences. Part of the reason is seen in another thing which evolved out of these recent types of confrontations: that s/he has learned/penetrated to the core of what motivates, moves, controls, and has power over individuals and group consciousness. (sn scorpio 11th)
Other past life confrontations would be this soul outwardly confronting the presence of evil within the corruption of humanity. This soul has traveled many places and seen many atrocities, including whole groups and villages of peoples destroyed, the impact on humanity of war,greed, and distortions of natural ways of living because of the domination of patriarchal reality. This soul would have brought the light of truth where ever s/he traveled. This would have attracted people and attention of all types. Many weirdos, outcasts, and eccentric types would have been attracted to her/him because s/he also walked to the the beat of a different drum and shined with the light of the Creator. S/he would be very welcoming; others would naturally be drawn to her/him. If we are placing this in the NOW, s/he would have and still attracts those who are masochistic and desiring a savior. This soul would know that it's purpose is not to "˜save"˜ others - for only they can save themselves.
Evolutionary speaking, this soul is learning the level of service to Creator it takes to be completely inwardly secure in actualizing the visions revealed in the past. For, to carry out these purposes, the same group traumas will be triggered again, yet experiencing new extremes. S/he has had this inner knowing that what s/he was bringing was from the Source and ultimately only helpful(pluto virgo 9th as sn ruler conjunct neptune balsamic) for others, regardless of the projected shame, trauma of group conspiracy, and that her/his words may very well fall on "˜deaf ears' 90% of the time.
What is new about this life is the great sense of purpose s/he brings relative to all these past awakenings and visions. (nn 5th/ruler waxing trine to sn 11) What is new is the soul's desire to be the natural teacher that the Creator has called her/him to be(mars waxing conjunction to pluto virgo 9th) This special purpose will be seen in the sharing/teaching of his/her own spiritual resources/techniques which s/he brings into this life(techniques for self liberation - sn 11th - becoming nn taurus 5th - purpose to share these techniques such that they become a resource available to humanity and the natural world.) This purpose will again call this soul to travel and teach at certain times during her/his life.(mars waxing conjunct pluto 9th) This great wisdom, channelled directly from the Creator, will most likely come out in the form of spoken and written teachings(ppp), in the form of posing questions of an ultimate nature such that it awakens others to their own soul truth and inner liberation. Relative to the pluto polarity point in the 3rd Pisces, we see that the teachings of how to align oneself to be of service to God/ess(9th virgo pluto mars) could come forth in the form of asking questions in such a way, as led by the Source to do so, such that individuals will learn by answering the questions themselves. This approach also reflects the evolution beyond any attachment to the potential that s/he sees in others. Posing a question simply puts the ball in their hands. "They"(others) will do with it what they will.
The teachings s/he brings may very well trigger crisis in belief for others, yet ultimately support the dissolution of false concepts of the Divine. In a true Virgonian sense, the teaching will result in self reflection, self analysis of other's beliefs and knowing, which will potentially lead others to a greater openness to all aspect of the divine, thus generating in others a personal sense of humility and desire to also learn to be of service to God/ess. Many will call her/him "˜teacher' during this lifetime. Regardless of this soul's personal humility demonstrated, some others will still lift her/him up, praising all that she/he brings forth, and on and on.... When this happens, this soul will, naturally, only point the way back to the Source...from which what they are offering came from.
Another piece of the north node being in taurus and the 5th house, ruler of the north node being venus in the 4th, is having the complete inner emotional security in her/his spiritual values, nature, and identity.(Venus) This results in creating a sense of universal home in knowing the Divine is always within us. One of the things this soul knows is that s/he needs cyclical retreat and solitude from the community. (nn ruler venus pisces 4th) In past lifetimes dynamics, entrenchment, and immersion into the community work/service reached a point where it led into inner emotional extremes. These inner extremes were due to potentially "˜downloading' so much conscious awareness of life from divine source, knowing, and intuitive and psychic capacities it would literally be like tidal waves of a myriad of "˜awareness/knowing flowing into present consciousness. There comes a level of exhaustion with such an evolved multi-dimensional awareness. Balance of inner realms would be achieved by having the inner quiet time. Also, remaining compassionately detached(sn) was the way to be of service while remaining immersed in community (full opposition by sign of venus to pluto). And relative to the waning inconjunct of venus to the pluto by house, this soul has adjusted accordingly the need to have discrimination in choosing home and retreat within the life's work.
The inner side of Venus in the 4th (relationship to self and home) (and being in full phase to pluto) the need to choose the right partner - one who is also close to God/ess, at or near the same evolutionary state, one who embodies compassion and has the capacity to listen and hear what s/he is saying. Also, relative to pisces 4th, a partner who can intuitively, psychically sense the emotional needs s/he has while not being a partner who is over needy and does not allow this soul it's own needed quietude and retreat within it's home space. This would be the definition of a soulmate relationship, where unconditional love is ever present.
At the current evolutionary stage, I again have the question of: Does Venus, as ruler of the north node symbolize having a home and family with their soulmate, which will then facilitate their establishing and embodying this life's purpose?
Venus, as nn ruler, is saying her/his home will be the place where this soul puts spiritual teachings into writing(PPP Pisces 3rd) in the form of story, poetry, and "˜divine channeling' which all have a common theme of drawing closer to God/ess by humbling oneself and learning to be of service to the divine thru many small ways: the mundane as a path to God/ess.
If we apply this soul to the NOW on Earth, the healing this soul would flow outward would assist the reconciliation of the patriarchal distorted conflict between spirit and flesh. The teachings(9) would assist others(Virgo) to liberate into(11) their authentic selves(11th scorpio/5th taurus)and release from the guilt and masochistic tendencies that have roots in distortions of natural law. (ppp pisces, spiritually evolved pluto/mars virgo 9th) Relative to the mars(desire) opposite venus(relationship to home and self) there would be a polarity in this life of being at home with family verses going out and traveling to teach again.
Thanks for any and all feedback
Goddess Bless,
Bradley
Hi Bradley,
"Rad, is it true hear that, in comparison with the beginning of 3rd, this soul, now mid third, the symbolism of venus pisces 4th reflects this inner spiritual home where ever she/he may roam? Compared to earlier in the early first stages of 3rd spiritual, venus pisces 4th as nn ruler, was symbolic of the role a rooted home and partner -> family played in facilitating her/him to establish her/his core evolutionary purpose(nn 5 taurus)......so, the question is: Is this right that this is changing as above by mid 3rd spiritual, such that this inner Divine identity fulfills the remaining soul desires - which would mean the soul's desire/need to evolve thru sexuality will be waning at this point? Subsequently, family and rooted home are not as important to the current life purpose - Can the symbolism here of the venus pisces 4th(as sn r.....) be as such?"
**************************************************************************
Yes, this Soul's evolution through sexuality has reached it's end at this point in evolution. And, yes, the prior evolutionary need to be rooted in home and family has also culminated at this point as well. The teaching that will come from this Soul now will be one wherein wherever one finds oneself on the planet is exactly where the inner godhead is. That is does not require going somewhere to 'find' God/ess. Thus, to be rooted in one's inner home/godhead at all times. This Soul will have an inner conflict rooted in the desire to remove itself from normal complexity of the world, and to live alone in the context of remote places that no one can get too, and the desire to stay in the world so as to help others. This is the Mars/Pluto in the 9th, which is ruling the S.Node in the 11th and Neptune, and the opposition of all the Pisces planets in the 3rd, and of course the Venus in the 4th which is the ruler of the N.Node in Taurus: needing to isolate. The inner conflict of these desires is that which will remain for the Soul to resolve into it's next couple of lifetimes.
*************************************************************************
"At the current evolutionary stage, I again have the question of: Does Venus, as ruler of the north node symbolize having a home and family with their soulmate, which will then facilitate their establishing and embodying this life's purpose?"
***********************************************************************
No. At this point in the Soul's evolution that Venus, ruler of the N.Node, is in a full phase opposition to the Mars/Pluto. Thus, in this context, this means that the Soul is 'throwing off' that previous evolutionary requirement. It has now reached the point of being liberated from it: the S.Node/Neptune conjunction in Scorpio in the 11th.
***********************************************************************
"Relative to the mars(desire) opposite venus(relationship to home and self) there would be a polarity in this life of being at home with family verses going out and traveling to teach again."
*************************************************************************
At this point in the Soul's evolution, given it's history, other lives, leading to this one, these symbols are about others, many others, traveling to be with this Soul wherever it is living. Relative to all the Pisces planets in the 3rd this Soul will have a variety of 'homes' or 'centers' wherein the the teachings from this Soul are expressed. Thus, this Soul will travel between these places where each of them are 'homes' to this Soul. The Soul's family will be all those that inhabit those centers or places, and all those that travel to be around the this Soul. Within this, the Soul, as stated above, will have it's own inner desire conflicts that revolve around the Souls own desire to remove itself to remote environments versus the ongoing evolutionary requirements to keep making itself avaiable to as many other Souls as possible, relative to their needs.
*************************************************************************
You have done a great job in your EA analysis of this paradigm Bradley. Bravo !
God Bless, Rad
Hi Rad,
From your work with Bradley:
Quote"At the current evolutionary stage, I again have the question of: Does Venus, as ruler of the north node symbolize having a home and family with their soulmate, which will then facilitate their establishing and embodying this life's purpose?"
***********************************************************************
No. At this point in the Soul's evolution that Venus, ruler of the N.Node, is in a full phase opposition to the Mars/Pluto. Thus, in this context, this means that the Soul is 'throwing off' that previous evolutionary requirement. It has now reached the point of being liberated from it: the S.Node/Neptune conjunction in Scorpio in the 11th.
I want to clarify. Is this only true for a soul who has reached the second stage of third stage spiritual? Whereas in the beginning of third stage spiritual there would still be need for this soul to become a householder in order to fully integrate a sacred home life, which includes a relationship to sexuality that serves 100% as a gateway to God? In the beginning of third spiritual would the "throwing off" of a full phase opposition relate to whatever dynamics prevent from a completely sacred inner life with its spiritual partner (ie not getting involved in other people's "stuff" by way of simplifying and limiting its personal life)?
Another question about second stage of third stage spiritual- do you know of any examples of souls that are or have been in that state? Everyone I think of seems to be at the end of third stage spiritual.
Thank you,
Ari Moshe
Hi Ari,
Quote from: ari moshe on Oct 22, 2010, 11:12 AM
Hi Rad,
From your work with Bradley:
Quote"At the current evolutionary stage, I again have the question of: Does Venus, as ruler of the north node symbolize having a home and family with their soulmate, which will then facilitate their establishing and embodying this life's purpose?"
***********************************************************************
No. At this point in the Soul's evolution that Venus, ruler of the N.Node, is in a full phase opposition to the Mars/Pluto. Thus, in this context, this means that the Soul is 'throwing off' that previous evolutionary requirement. It has now reached the point of being liberated from it: the S.Node/Neptune conjunction in Scorpio in the 11th.
I want to clarify. Is this only true for a soul who has reached the second stage of third stage spiritual?
****************************************************
Yes
******************************************************
Whereas in the beginning of third stage spiritual there would still be need for this soul to become a householder in order to fully integrate a sacred home life, which includes a relationship to sexuality that serves 100% as a gateway to God?
******************************************************
Yes, and that includes progressively culminating any kind of sexual desire that is not linked with God/ess.
******************************************************
In the beginning of third spiritual would the "throwing off" of a full phase opposition relate to whatever dynamics prevent from a completely sacred inner life with its spiritual partner (ie not getting involved in other people's "stuff" by way of simplifying and limiting its personal life)?
******************************************************************
The Soul's life at this point is about progressively serving on behalf of God/ess the needs of those that the Soul is directed to work with. Thus, the 'throwing off' are any existing dynamics that stand of the way of this evolutionary need and requirement. The partner itself will be evolved, at minimum, to the evolutionary state of this Soul. Thus, their own inner directions of how best to serve the needs of others. Thus, their relationship will be defined by this shared evolutionary requirement that is reflected in their own Soul desires.
*******************************************************************
Another question about second stage of third stage spiritual- do you know of any examples of souls that are or have been in that state? Everyone I think of seems to be at the end of third stage spiritual.
************************************************************
Ananda Moyi Ma
*****************************************************
God Bless, Rad
Rad,
I have learned much about this current paradigm from others' assignments and your answers to their questions. I am not experienced enough to add much more, so thank you for this learning experience. I look forward to the next paradigm.
Hi Practice Group,
What I need to find out is how many of you wish to continue, and, also, I am thinking that it might be time to sort of start from the beginning: i.e. to start as simply as we can in working with the EA paradigm so that others who have not participated in this thread can do so. I have no idea if there are others who would like to do this who have not participated to date. For those that have.......Ari, Bradley, Upasika.. you have demonstrated a very fine ability to understand the paradigms that we have worked with very well: including the deeper dimensions of them. Linda has also demonstrated a fine understanding of the interactions within the paradigms to date, although the depth of her understanding has yet to be presented even though I sense that she does have that, that she does 'get it'. So I am open to continuing to work with our little group with new paradigms, and I am also wondering if there are others who have yet to participate that might want to, if we started over and being very simple at first. So please let me know.
God Bless, Rad
Hi Rad,
I am very interested as always in this wonderful opportunity to practice and learn. However right now I'm in a healing process and will have to take a break for 2 or 3 months from doing these in any signifcant way as they are very involving (well for me anyway). But I really value these assignments and will be back as soon as possible. Thanks so much, and I do hope you all continue. Also I do get the feeling others would like to participate and a fresh start in the vein you're suggesting sounds very good. As those who haven't participated yet but might want to may not always read this thread, would a new simple thread to ask this question be more accessible to them? ... just a thought anyway.
blessings Upasika
Hi Rad,
I am happy to continue in whatever way the group chooses. I also sense there are people who would like to attempt these assignments, and could benefit by a simplified step by step approach. I feel that jumping 'into the deep end' with these assignments had allowed me to learn a great deal and overcome my earlier hesitancy, but also that somehow I had missed some basics along the way (eg how to synthesize the dynamics). This work and learning is a priority for me, and I do have the time to apply myself to it. As always, thank you so much for your willingness to help us along.
Rad,
I love the practice thread and would be happy to continue in any way.
I also hope anyone who wishes to participate jumps in. Personally, I'd like to again encourage anyone to go for it. A bit over a year ago, when I first joined it, it is clear that i lacked a core understanding of the archetypes.(as taught in EA) It was and continues to be a thing where, for me, when i am unafraid to 'look a fool' by my lack of knowing, that the response and feedback allows the most growth. Mistakes are the best!
Goddess Bless,
Bradley
Hi Rad,
If you end up doing a simplified practice chart, this will be a good time for me to step out for a bit and focus on some other threads that I've been wanting to give more attention to.
I have a feeling that most people who may have an interest in starting a new practice chart on a more beginners level are likely not reading this thread. It may be a good idea to post a new thread as to get more people's attention.
As always, thank you for holding this space for us. This has definitely been one of the most beneficial learning experiences for me.
With Love,
am
thanks Ari Moshe for your last post.
i share a similar feeling on one hand...i mean, if i knew by my non-participation others would step up and commit, then i'd be happy to step out for a time..
on the other hand, the simplicity of the bottom lines is exciting to me and so essential to all of this. just the other day, watching the dvd where a woman begs and begs Jeffery to go over the 'pluto questions' for determining the house pluto is in(quite funny moment), it was another great learning experience going back to the basics...for i was lacking clear knowing of the difference in the 'special destiny' between aries and leo. Certainly have much to learn from further study of the bottom lines also....
Hi Group,
So I have started a new thread for beginners to do practice charts with the EA paradigm. So am also wondering for those of you who have been doing this from the beginning, and those that joined in later, in which we became progressively more deep and complete in our practice charts would like to continue. Please let me know.
God Bless, Rad
love to continue,
thank you kindly
Thanks Rad, I can't do these at the moment but am definitely into it, really value them, and hopefully will be able to get going on them again in a couple of months, Upasika
Thanks Rad for taking others into consideration. That is very kind of you.
The practice charts on this thread have really advanced and are becoming very complicated. It was difficult at times trying to work out how and why the others came to their conclusions. Even though they had clearly referenced their material, I still could not work out "why?"
Interestingly, when I give face to face readings with immediate feedback, my intuition flows extremely well. I am able to observe, correlate and synthesize the dynamics quite effortlessly, while trusting in my insights and intuition.
But for some reason, on these assignments, when I sat at my computer I was scared to make a mistake and expose my thoughts, ideas and intuition, and so I took the safe path which really did not work. I should have taken many more risks...but I suppose Mercury in Cap 3rd can be too cautious.
I will be able to do much better written assignments than what I've been doing here by beginning at the basics and following the process step by step with you. For this reason, I've switched to the Beginners Thread, and am really looking forward to this so much. I do want to get it right! I also hope to return here in the future.
Thank you for your time, patience and expertise here. You have been so marvelous.
Love and Gratitude,
Linda
Hi Ari, Bradley, and Upasika
So let me know if you want to continue on this practice chart thread. By default it seems this will now become more of an advance thread to practice the EA paradigm. Upasika I realize that because of you medical situation that your participation, at least in presenting an analysis, is based on that. If there are any others that wish to join of 'advanced' group please let me know.
God Bless, Rad
Thanks Rad for holding this additional space. I'm very interested in continuing.
am
Rad,
I would like to focus here and on the Planetary Nodes thread at this time.
Thank you
Goddess Bless,
Bradley
Good call- I'm with Bradley here. I think that's a wise choice on my part to stick with just the planetary nodes for now.
Hi Ari,
Let me know if I am understanding you correctly: you wish to do just the planetary nodes thread, or both this one and that one like Bradley ?
God Bless, Rad
Oh I see, I misread Bradley's.
Yes my intention is to focus only on the planetary nodes. At least for the next bit of time.