Old EA Message Board

Re: PLUTO 7TH HOUSE
Wow, this is great!  Thanks everyone.
I feel like we are close to taking the next step and putting the nodes in a house placemet.
With Stephen(post 56), Linda(post 60), Michelle(post 95), Deva(post 97,100, & previous), and Steve's posts 103 &105 we have beautifully reached the heart/bottom line of pluto in the 7th.

Rad & Deva: Do you sense there is any other aspects we should discuss before we build off of this foundation?

Hi Bradley, et all

Ok, let's move forwards with this 7th House Pluto and now put the S.Node in the 9th House, and make the evolutionary condition somewhere towards the beginning of the 1st stage individuated. So we now have a 7th House Pluto, it's polarity point in the 1st, S.Node in the 9th, N.Node in the 3rd. Beginning of 1st Stage Individuated.

Let's have a go of it ..........

Rad

At the initial processing of this set up(pluto 7th w/south node 9th coming into individuated), it is hard for me to think of scenarios in which the individual would not be in the more dominant role in relationship initially/early in life.

I'd speculate that they are at the start of owning their own belief set/life philosophy.  Perhaps they have a strong personal perspective of the cultural philosophies in which they grew up in or in the recent karmic past had come in contact with influential relationships which broke them out of the "herd state's philosophical paradigm."
In either case, their own philosophies and points of view would carry a lot of weight in how relationship dynamics would play out.  This is where it leads me to think of this carrying into relationship in such a way where I don't see them initially choosing partners that challenge their beliefs.  (If someone could explain otherwise, please do)  They would naturally feel more comfortable in relationships where the partner is acknowledging and praising their perspective. 
This would set up a evolutionary dynamic where the individual would not continue to evolve as long as they continue as just the "teacher" in the relationships in their life.  If they do not realize on their own the need to really do more than just hear others, the cataclysmic plutonian event would eventually come where they would be humbled into the student role.
Ultimately, it would be in their own interest to not invest so much energy into others perspectives; and learn to take that energy to develope the self.
Once they learn to go beyond their judgement vision and begin to listen knowing deep within that what another speaks may very well be complete truth for them, they will learn this lesson of how to really really support those around them in their life. 
In a healthy state, a cultivated north node 3rd, this person would certainly become celebrated for holding a larger vision while allowing others visions and perspectives valid space. 
When they know in their heart that they need not be "right" in relationship, they will begin to liberate themselves to develope their own self.

What do you think??

Coming into first stage individuated relative to Pluto in the 7th NN in the 9th. I think this soul would come from a past of relating to others through higher institutions of learning, or through being exposed to differing  cultures. Because they are new in the first stage of individuated they will still struggle with belief systems and knowing what their truth is versus others. They are expanding their consciousness. Maybe going back in forth between philosophical views. They connect to others in education, religion or cultural systems sometimes attracted to teachers that they learn from or looking for teachers.
They are learning duality,that two people can have different philosophys and both be right. Learning the karma of truth. When this is taken back to the 7th I could see the shifting that would go on between Not this, not that as they are learning who they are, what their truth is.
Humor may be involved,a gift they carry in relating to others.

Bradley

Quote from: Bradley J on Aug 19, 2009, 11:24 PM
At the initial processing of this set up(pluto 7th w/south node 9th coming into individuated), it is hard for me to think of scenarios in which the individual would not be in the more dominant role in relationship initially/early in life.

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At this stage of evolution, just moving into the 1st Stage individuated, the Soul is in a natural QUESTIONING mode Bradley. And because they are questioning the 'nature of things' as a reaction to where they have been, the consensus agreements of what 'reality' is as defined by consensus 'beliefs', including the beliefs that define for the consensus how we are 'supposed' to be in relationships, it is this questioning that would correlate to a Soul THAT IN NOT IN A DOMINATE POSITION within their relationship formations. Quite the opposite: the questioning would correlate to desiring to forming relationships with all kinds of folks who have themselves evolved beyond the consensus and have become INDEPENDENT THINKERS about the nature of everything, including the very nature of life itself. This of course reflects their own N.Node in the 1st House, and the questioning of everything reflects not only their own S.Node in the 9th..i.e. beliefs systems.., but of course their own N.Node in the 3rd: the diversity of belief systems all over the world. So because of this stage of evolution, just moving into the 1st Stage individuated, it is much more common for the Soul to become DEPENDENT on these types of relationships in which THEY ARE LEARNING FROM OTHERS because of their own evolutionary desire to evolve beyond the consensus.

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I'd speculate that they are at the start of owning their own belief set/life philosophy.  Perhaps they have a strong personal perspective of the cultural philosophies in which they grew up in or in the recent karmic past had come in contact with influential relationships which broke them out of the "herd state's philosophical paradigm."

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This is true. But you don't need to speculate: it comes with this stage of evolution within these symbols. That is indeed the beauty of EA once properly understood.

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In either case, their own philosophies and points of view would carry a lot of weight in how relationship dynamics would play out.  This is where it leads me to think of this carrying into relationship in such a way where I don't see them initially choosing partners that challenge their beliefs.  (If someone could explain otherwise, please do)  They would naturally feel more comfortable in relationships where the partner is acknowledging and praising their perspective. 

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Not so, see above

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This would set up a evolutionary dynamic where the individual would not continue to evolve as long as they continue as just the "teacher" in the relationships in their life.  If they do not realize on their own the need to really do more than just hear others, the cataclysmic plutonian event would eventually come where they would be humbled into the student role.

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That very thing, indeed, has happened prior to this life while in the consensus state which is why there are now where they are as specified above ...........

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Ultimately, it would be in their own interest to not invest so much energy into others perspectives; and learn to take that energy to develope the self.
Once they learn to go beyond their judgement vision and begin to listen knowing deep within that what another speaks may very well be complete truth for them, they will learn this lesson of how to really really support those around them in their life. 
In a healthy state, a cultivated north node 3rd, this person would certainly become celebrated for holding a larger vision while allowing others visions and perspectives valid space. 
When they know in their heart that they need not be "right" in relationship, they will begin to liberate themselves to develope their own self.

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This part is very accurate .............................

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What do you think??

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Think you did a very good first effort ..................................

     Rad

Michelle,

Quote from: Michelle on Aug 20, 2009, 07:39 AM

Coming into first stage individuated relative to Pluto in the 7th NN in the 9th. I think this soul would come from a past of relating to others through higher institutions of learning, or through being exposed to differing  cultures. Because they are new in the first stage of individuated they will still struggle with belief systems and knowing what their truth is versus others. They are expanding their consciousness. Maybe going back in forth between philosophical views. They connect to others in education, religion or cultural systems sometimes attracted to teachers that they learn from or looking for teachers.
They are learning duality,that two people can have different philosophys and both be right. Learning the karma of truth. When this is taken back to the 7th I could see the shifting that would go on between Not this, not that as they are learning who they are, what their truth is.
Humor may be involved,a gift they carry in relating to others.

What you have written is true, but very ,very brief in terms of the whole of what these evolutionary symbols mean. Perhaps you can expand on this ?

Rad

Thank you.

So, would this seeking out of teachers combined with a pluto 7th natural ability to unconsciously fulfilling anothers needs in relationship, in this case a teacher type, lead to potential cyclic tensions within the relationships with teachers at this early individuated stage because there is this "sampling" of other philosophies.  And, so at the point where the teacher's role is fulfilled for the individual, the teacher may not be ready to lose the student, but the student is ready to move on, yet has a challenge to break out of this habit of pleasing/fulfilling the others percieved needs? 
Does this question make sense?

Hi, I wanted to add some input to your question, Bradley. In the individuated state, the person will be desiring to liberate from a teacher/student relationship, and deeply question the beliefs that are socially accepted and have been gravitated to prior to the current life in order for this individuation process to manifest. In other words, it is absolutely necessary that the Soul question/confront those that would attempt to impose his or beliefs on the individual and restrict individual expression/questioning of those beliefs (Pluto in the 7th house, SN in the 9th house). In fact, in this state the person will respect the individual beliefs of other people, and naturally gravitate to others who are orientated in the same way. So, yes, potentially, confrontations with authoritarian  teacher types can occur as a reflection of the individuation process that Soul is seeking to actualize. The teacher type, in his or her own evolutionary state, may not be able to embrace these evolving needs of the 7th house person and that will require a break of the relationship (1st house polarity point).   

In your reply, Rad, you said:  "So because of this stage of evolution, just moving into the 1st Stage individuated, it is much more common for the Soul to become DEPENDENT on these types of relationships in which THEY ARE LEARNING FROM OTHERS because of their own evolutionary desire to evolve beyond the consensus."
I'm wondering to what extent souls coming into the individuated state are learning from others because of their own evolutionary desires to evolve beyond consensus?
To clarify this question, one can read this and think-"Oh, all souls in this state are learning from others to evolve" or is this comment truely specific to a pluto 7th w/S.Node in 9th?

A separate thought, Michelle made comment of the contacts with higher education and other cultures.
This also got me thinking about the 9th house ties with travel.
Can we know that this cataclysmic plutonian event that has propelled them out of the herd state is from their past travels and exposure to new paradigms and perspectives on reality? 
Or could all the same have occured because of the studies that were underway?
And, finally, I often see the ninth house as a house of leadership.  If this is true, could this past plutonian event have also potentially manifested within past relationships from something that came up while being a teacher/leader within the herd consensus reality?

Re: Pluto 7th w/s.n. 9th:

I realize now that my last series of questions brings up this line in the sand of "How much do we know for sure with only these 3 pieces of information-pluto by house, nodal houses, and evolutionary state"
This is the beauty of the practice charts thread.
Certainly, the last 3 questions I asked were attempts to reach the heart of the karmic past that would need the details of the rest of the chart to paint the full picture.
And so, I find this really interesting that there are specifics that we can know(in the broader sense) with the details to be filled in with the rest of the information.
So, on one hand, you could say-well, yes, all three of these conditions were possibly the situations that led up to the plutonian event that transformed the soul beyond the herd state.

Is the intention here to, as clear as we can, stay within what we can say for sure?
Is creating a list of what may have happened in the karmic past helpful or does it dissolve the core of what we want to know for sure?
Are we going for a "In the past karmic situations with pluto in 7th, s.n 9th in early individuated state, the karmic situations leading up to evolutionary events would have been this, or this, or this, or that.  And, in this lifetime, to continue to evolve, the individual will be learning through situations like this, this, or ...."

I ask this with the intention of learning how to most functionally build off of the foundations of knowledge without going out on tangets(different threads) or straying to far from the bottom line that is most essential to know.

Thanks in advance,
Bradley J

Bradley,

Quote from: Bradley J on Aug 22, 2009, 04:09 PM
In your reply, Rad, you said:  "So because of this stage of evolution, just moving into the 1st Stage individuated, it is much more common for the Soul to become DEPENDENT on these types of relationships in which THEY ARE LEARNING FROM OTHERS because of their own evolutionary desire to evolve beyond the consensus."
I'm wondering to what extent souls coming into the individuated state are learning from others because of their own evolutionary desires to evolve beyond consensus?
To clarify this question, one can read this and think-"Oh, all souls in this state are learning from others to evolve" or is this comment truely specific to a pluto 7th w/S.Node in 9th?

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It's specific to this signature in that they NATURE of the questions within them that correlate to evolving beyond the consensus state are philosophical in nature: philosophies equal beliefs which in turn determine how we 'interpret' reality,  which in determines the meaning and values that we project on the phenomena of life itself, which in turn determine our inner relationship to ourselves. This is the very essence of a Soul with this signature. So such a Soul will be asking all kinds of questions, pondering all kinds of things, that relate to this which serves as the determinant of the types of relationships that they initiate with others.

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A separate thought, Michelle made comment of the contacts with higher education and other cultures.
This also got me thinking about the 9th house ties with travel.
Can we know that this cataclysmic plutonian event that has propelled them out of the herd state is from their past travels and exposure to new paradigms and perspectives on reality?  Or could all the same have occured because of the studies that were underway?

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We can know that that is a possibility. It's just as possible, given the limited symbols so far, that the Soul created 'inner travel' that has lead to increasing alienation from the consensus. And that that alienation itself lead to a cataclysmic event in a recent prior life leading to the current life.

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And, finally, I often see the ninth house as a house of leadership.  If this is true, could this past plutonian event have also potentially manifested within past relationships from something that came up while being a teacher/leader within the herd consensus reality?

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Yes, that is a possibility.

Rad

Bradley,

Quote from: Bradley J on Aug 23, 2009, 05:03 PM
Re: Pluto 7th w/s.n. 9th:

I realize now that my last series of questions brings up this line in the sand of "How much do we know for sure with only these 3 pieces of information-pluto by house, nodal houses, and evolutionary state"
This is the beauty of the practice charts thread.
Certainly, the last 3 questions I asked were attempts to reach the heart of the karmic past that would need the details of the rest of the chart to paint the full picture.
And so, I find this really interesting that there are specifics that we can know(in the broader sense) with the details to be filled in with the rest of the information.
So, on one hand, you could say-well, yes, all three of these conditions were possibly the situations that led up to the plutonian event that transformed the soul beyond the herd state.

Is the intention here to, as clear as we can, stay within what we can say for sure?

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Yes, and that is determined by the nature of the archetypes themselves.

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Is creating a list of what may have happened in the karmic past helpful or does it dissolve the core of what we want to know for sure?
Are we going for a "In the past karmic situations with pluto in 7th, s.n 9th in early individuated state, the karmic situations leading up to evolutionary events would have been this, or this, or this, or that.  And, in this lifetime, to continue to evolve, the individual will be learning through situations like this, this, or ...."

I ask this with the intention of learning how to most functionally build off of the foundations of knowledge without going out on tangets(different threads) or straying to far from the bottom line that is most essential to know.

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If you stay within the archetypes themselves, relative to evolutionary states, once the whole chart is seen as a whole, inductive logic, going off in tangents will not occur. Making up lists of possibilities is not necessary. It is necessary to understand the totality of the archetypes though. Each archetype has a SPECTRUM within them that symbolizes the entire archetype. Once those archetypes are totally understood then the specific EA signatures in each chart becomes the determinant of where, how, and why this or that part of the archetypes in question have been the defining archetypes in each Soul relative to their own individual evolutionary journey back to God'ess.

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Thanks in advance,
Bradley J

Rad

Hi all,
Thank you for continuing this thread. I am an uber beginner who continues to absorb this information with much interest...hopefully at some point I'll be able to contribute! With gratitude, Heather

Pluto 7th w/s.n. 9th again:  Here's another re-hashing to place the emphasis in the right places.
In reviewing my posts, I'm sensing that the bottom line for a 7th house Pluto has lost a bit of its essence in integrating the nodes.

One born with Pluto in the 7th and south node in the 9th in the early stages of the individuated evolutionary state feels, like all 7th house pluto's, more comfortable and secure in relationships.  This has come from a place of gaining a lot of learning thru many relationships in the past.  A common theme in these relationships was a connection to beliefs and philosophies of life. 
Through these past relationships, the individual went through experience(s) that awakened a new perspective and philosophy about life that was much different than the herd state's consensus reality in the previous life.  This/these relationship(s) may have been involved with religion, education, or simply philosophical discussions of life perspectives.
Coming into this life strongly colored by new beliefs and ego perspectives, the individual is also has natural tendency to carry judgement into relationships regarding other's lives, choices and perspectives.  This tendency is extreme.  In it's shadow manifestation, it represents holding onto relationships with those who only support their views/philosophy etc. 
In this life time this individual's evolutionary path is to develope themselves, a journey that begins within the self, not the other.  How can they do this?  By cultivating the ability to be a student of life, being open to hearing their self, awakening their own personal discovery through mind's contact with more information without carrying in prejudgements. 
Once they learn to develope their self through feeding their own mind with inquiry and self discovery, they will be able to enter into relationship in a evolved healthy balanced sense.  At this point, they can truely hear their partner/others. 

The separating desires in this archetypal signature manifest in holding onto the security of shared views from relationships that they learned from and projecting these onto experiences leading to a blind which blocks the view of truely seeing where to focus their attention-their self.

The soul's desire to return to the source here would be seen as the individual learns to form a relationship with their self first.  We'd observe a healthy balance of meeting their partner's needs as well as their own.
We'd see honest check in's and healthy communication that isn't laden with pre-existing judgement. The result would certainly be the beauty of blossoming growth in both the individual and their ability to speak for themselves and communicate in a fair give and take with support to others as well as their own self; ultimately leading to a death of the old relationship ways and a rebirth of a new approach to all of life.

Bradley

Quote from: Bradley J on Aug 25, 2009, 06:45 AM
Pluto 7th w/s.n. 9th again:  Here's another re-hashing to place the emphasis in the right places.
In reviewing my posts, I'm sensing that the bottom line for a 7th house Pluto has lost a bit of its essence in integrating the nodes.

One born with Pluto in the 7th and south node in the 9th in the early stages of the individuated evolutionary state feels, like all 7th house pluto's, more comfortable and secure in relationships.  This has come from a place of gaining a lot of learning thru many relationships in the past.  A common theme in these relationships was a connection to beliefs and philosophies of life. 
Through these past relationships, the individual went through experience(s) that awakened a new perspective and philosophy about life that was much different than the herd state's consensus reality in the previous life.  This/these relationship(s) may have been involved with religion, education, or simply philosophical discussions of life perspectives.
Coming into this life strongly colored by new beliefs and ego perspectives, the individual is also has natural tendency to carry judgement into relationships regarding other's lives, choices and perspectives.  This tendency is extreme.  In it's shadow manifestation, it represents holding onto relationships with those who only support their views/philosophy etc. 

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No, there is no natural tendency to carry judgments into relationships regarding other's lives, etc. Quite the opposite: the 7th House is a natural archetype of relativity, the relativity of everything including values and belief systems of all kinds. Even though the person them self may have their own philosophy or beliefs, values, about something they can always understand and accept the values, beliefs, etc of others even if they don't hold to them them self. This is made more true by the fact of the S.Node in the 9th. The key to this is the evolutionary stage in our example: moving into the individuated.
If we were using an example of a Pluto in the 7th, and a S.Node in the 10th, and the evolutionary condition was within the consensus state, then this issue of judgments would be accurate. The 7th House is also an archetype of extremes. Thus, in this signature you could see through the symbolism the extremity of judgments projected on others where those judgments were extensions of not only the consensus of the society that they lived within, but also shared by their partner. So even though the 7th House is an archetype of relativity that relativity would be judged from within the person, and their partner, as threatening, Pluto, to their own reality as individuals, and thus their marriage:

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In this life time this individual's evolutionary path is to develope themselves, a journey that begins within the self, not the other.  How can they do this?  By cultivating the ability to be a student of life, being open to hearing their self, awakening their own personal discovery through mind's contact with more information without carrying in prejudgements. 

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Again, with Pluto in the 7th, S.Node in the 9th, the issue of 'prejudgments' does not exist. They are wide open to all kinds of new ways of thinking and understanding the phenomena of life.

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Once they learn to develope their self through feeding their own mind with inquiry and self discovery, they will be able to enter into relationship in a evolved healthy balanced sense.  At this point, they can truely hear their partner/others. 

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The 7th House, and the nature of Venus, both correlate to the psychology of hearing. Thus, with the 7th House Pluto is place, for lifetimes, they have already learned to 'hear' others in general relative to the realities of those others AS THEY EXIST FOR THEM. So much so that they need to learn how to listen or hear themselves from within: the intention of the polarity point of the 7th House Pluto: the 1st House.

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The separating desires in this archetypal signature manifest in holding onto the security of shared views from relationships that they learned from and projecting these onto experiences leading to a blind which blocks the view of truely seeing where to focus their attention-their self.

The soul's desire to return to the source here would be seen as the individual learns to form a relationship with their self first.  We'd observe a healthy balance of meeting their partner's needs as well as their own.
We'd see honest check in's and healthy communication that isn't laden with pre-existing judgement. The result would certainly be the beauty of blossoming growth in both the individual and their ability to speak for themselves and communicate in a fair give and take with support to others as well as their own self; ultimately leading to a death of the old relationship ways and a rebirth of a new approach to all of life.

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Ok............they will also learn to ASK AND ANSWER THEIR OWN QUESTIONS. They will evolve in such a way that their attitude towards a relationship will be: I want to be with you versus I need to be with you. And that will also be the key to their partner: wanting versus needing.

Rad