Old EA Message Board

Hi Rad,

I've deleted my post.  I'll wait for more
information and see what you say about this first.

Thanks.

Hi all, many thanks.
I am participating, digesting, reflecting, etc...
This thread will not end, simply change rate of activity as we progress through all the generic possibilities.
So be it!

Quote from: Linda on Jun 23, 2009, 03:21 PM
Rad:

I would like to do it in the way you suggested, plus a diversity of others ways in the future if you wish - it's all good!

It seems there are different levels of participants, from beginners to advanced.  I am happy to do it along with the more advanced practitioners as this is a great way to learn.

May I offer a few suggestions?

• To commence a new thread for each practice session or each example chart, so that they can easily be referred to later on.


• To give each chart a name, eg PRACTICE CHART:  Sue, Peter, etc.


• To commence a special thread that contains a LIST of everything we've covered, the first one being:
  
  Name:  PRACTICE CHARTS
  
  Date commenced:   24 March 2009
  
  Areas covered:  Pluto 8th / SN 3rd / SN Ruler 10th
  
  Contributors:  Rad, Deva, Issa, Sajani, Lia, Michelle, Stacie, Linda, ari moshe, cranberry, inyo, gruff, Kristin, yarrow8, birdwhistler, david, PamS

Thanks!


PS:  Perhaps occasionally we could work on REAL charts of ourselves, friends, famous people, etc.

In response to reply's 68 & 69, showing support to continue with Pluto in each house. 
I appreciated Linda's idea of multiple threads.  After sitting with this idea, I was thinking that, in terms of thinking of the future of this thread and the future flux of participants(new and old students), it could be helpful to create a thread for pluto in each house.  So, we would have started the "Pluto in 7th Thread" and while allowing the continuation of the "Pluto in the 8th Thread".

What do you think?

Also, I liked Linda's idea of a thread that would introduce future participants to the "Practice Chart Threads"

Personally, I've appreciated Rad's focused approach on just Pluto in a house and then adding a nodal house position, highlighted with a peppering of "real" practice charts.  It feels as if the content would be more valuable to introductory students visiting the message board to at least begin the threads in this fashion.

Thanks for all the support and sharing
What do you think Rad?

and Deva, what are your thoughts on this also?

Hi Bradley..I like your idea. The information provided has been quite useful. I am working on a chart now with an 8th house Pluto.

I've been meditating on the 7th house Pluto and have such a hard time writing my thoughts. I wanted to add the idea of 7th house Pluto being the "Chameleon" as they are always nice and trying to have peace, getting along with others to the point of loosing themselves. They can change and fit into any group, like an actress. I am a seventh house Pluto and the first time I had a reading with Jeffery he said this to me and I was offended because I didn't find this to be true as I had been studying and growing spiritually on so many levels. But now, I do understand as I came into a family with a consensus type ruler ship and with many projections put on me as to who I was, sometimes it's a matter of survival. I can see it in a new light now although I still relate and understand the many personalities I was exposed to.It's interesting because in the Native culture there is a Shape Shifter, I think this could be the same idea as an empowered 7th house.There is a period in life where 7th house Pluto has to go through figuring out who they are. I was also very shy when I was younger and afraid of people due to the projections. I think it also depends on the placement and rulership of Venus in the chart. I am Pluto in Virgo so looking at Mercury in the 12 house also adds to the inability to speak my truth out of fear of persecution.
Jeffery also mentions the anger involved with a 7th house Pluto and how shocking it can be to others when the volcano erupts. As they move toward the polarity of Aries in the first house and start to find their center, when they are pulled on or projected to be someone that they are not it can cause a rebellion.
I also have experienced strong Karmic relations with others. These relationships can be very intense. It was mentioned that the 7th house Pluto person might end the relationship before the partner is ready for it to end, creating new Karma to be resolved at a later time. It also works the other way around where the partner leaves the 7th house Pluto and they don't understand why.These experiences are deeply painful to the core but create much soul growth as they work through the pain, being forced back onto themselves, ending the codependency on another. As they evolve toward spirit as the ultimate relationship and learn to be self reliant they find the balance and peace within.

I don't know how to post my chart but I'd be happy to share if it helps for study purposes.
Jan. 14th 1969
Tucson, Az
9:29am

Blessings,
Michelle

Hi Bradley,

In terms of practice charts it is best to do them in a building block fashion, step by step, versus creating all kinds of various threads reflecting Pluto in different houses and signs. Without the building block approach, which Wolf always advocated and taught, it leads to confusion do to dispersion.
  I have tried since the beginning of this message board to keep the flame alive for these practice charts but as you can see no one really wants to stay with it. If you and/ or Michelle would like to contribute to the existing thread that has been focused on the 7th House Pluto please do. Just as Linda and Stephan has done. If I can see ongoing input then I am more than keen to keep doing these practice charts.

  Rad

Hi, I wanted to add some input based upon Michelle's post about Pluto in the 7th house. To me, the chamellion aspect of the 7th house reflects that the individual is fulfilling the expectations of others in such a way that they become an "alter ego" of the other person they are in a realtionship with. The 7th house person's identity becomes defined relative to this pattern, and so the chamellion dynamic manifests relative to whaterver expecations and projected needs of the current partner that are being fulfilled by the 7th house Pluto person. In other words, the person has become dependant upon relationships to understand their own sense of identity. Of course, in the other extreme, lets remember that Libra corrlates to extermes, the 7th house Pluto person could operate in the opposite way and manipulate others to become his or her alter ego to have their own needs fulfilled. In all cases, the core dynamic to remember about the 7th house and Libra is the need to be needed, and how this need dictates the nature of the realtionships that are formed in the context of the dyanmics discribed above. Lets keep going with this thread!
Deva

This brave soul, Michelle, offered to use her chart - perhaps she could go ahead & post her evolutionary state & some background?

 Hi Deva,

QuoteTo me, the chamellion aspect of the 7th house reflects that the individual is fulfilling the expectations of others in such a way that they become an "alter ego" of the other person they are in a realtionship with. The 7th house person's identity becomes defined relative to this pattern, and so the chamellion dynamic manifests relative to whaterver expecations and projected needs of the current partner that are being fulfilled by the 7th house Pluto person. In other words, the person has become dependant upon relationships to understand their own sense of identity. Of course, in the other extreme, lets remember that Libra corrlates to extermes, the 7th house Pluto person could operate in the opposite way and manipulate others to become his or her alter ego to have their own needs fulfilled.

Thanks for the clarity. A couple questions....How would this 7th house Pluto work in the 3rd stage individuated and spiritual evolutionary states. Does the "chameleon"  exist at all evolutionary stages? Plus would you find this manipulation in these stages of evolution? I guess Jim Jones(Chart example, In Pluto 1) was a 7th house Pluto, not sure of evolutionary stage but that seems like a good example of the manipulative type hiding behind God. I'm assuming this was Jim Jones the cult leader who lead all his followers to their death, is this right?

Lucius,
I put myself in 3rd stage individuated moving into 1st stage spiritual?
Raised Roman Catholic
Spiritual beliefs-I have always related to Shamanism and feel most connected in nature. I study about many beliefs but favor the teachings of Yogananda.
I work at an organic company that sells bugs. I also paint murals and sale paint.(practice astrology and Reiki)
My parents were Italian & Irish Dad worked in Construction, Mom worked in restaurants and then went through a 20 year battle with Cancer. Dad spent some time in prison.

Thanks,
Michelle

Hi Michelle, yes this dynamic can operate within the third stage individuated and spiritual early spiritual states.
     In the spiritual state, in a general sense, the dependancy will be upon a spiritual teacher type to provide answers that the Soul is seeking. In the other exterme the Soul act as a spiritual teacher type who manipulates others who are uncounsciously seeking such advice in thw ways allready described. The point within this is to embrace the 1st house or Aries polarity point in order to discover/recover the Soul's instrisinic identitiy indepndant from any relationship. In the spiritual state the Soull cannot be dependant upon any spiritual teacher/group in the ways described above, and must independantly act upon the need to spiritualize. This will transform the individual's orientation and approuch to groups and teachers of this nature so the individual can particiapte as an equal if communities of like minded others are sought out.
The example you gave is certainly an extreme and I do not know alot about him as an individual but feel that what you are saying about him is correct. I hope others can provide more info about him.
Hope this helps.
Deva

So...it's almost impossible for a 7th house Pluto not to be involved in relationships of this nature unless in higher spiritual states? So more than likley I won't be happy sitting on a mountain top by myself meditating for a couple years alone unless I'm with a group of like minded souls. Even then the dynamics of learning from relationships will still be present as we each have our soul work to do. Or if I was able to be alone for a while someone would find me!;) I think I am finally understanding.

QuoteThe point within this is to embrace the 1st house or Aries polarity point in order to discover/recover the Soul's instrisinic identitiy indepndant from any relationship. In the spiritual state the Soull cannot be dependant upon any spiritual teacher/group in the ways described above, and must independantly act upon the need to spiritualize. This will transform the individual's orientation and approuch to groups and teachers of this nature so the individual can particiapte as an equal if communities of like minded others are sought out.

Would this type of soul have more aspects in the first house/polarity to pull away from the Pluto position?

Michelle

http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Jones%2C_Jim

This is a link to Jim Jones- Source Lois Rodden

7th house Pluto in Cancer

Alan Watts is another example used in Pluto Vol.1

Hi Michelle

QuoteSo...it's almost impossible for a 7th house Pluto not to be involved in relationships of this nature unless in higher spiritual states? So more than likley I won't be happy sitting on a mountain top by myself meditating for a couple years alone unless I'm with a group of like minded souls. Even then the dynamics of learning from relationships will still be present as we each have our soul work to do. Or if I was able to be alone for a while someone would find me!;) I think I am finally understanding.

Quote
The point within this is to embrace the 1st house or Aries polarity point in order to discover/recover the Soul's instrisinic identitiy indepndant from any relationship. In the spiritual state the Soull cannot be dependant upon any spiritual teacher/group in the ways described above, and must independantly act upon the need to spiritualize. This will transform the individual's orientation and approuch to groups and teachers of this nature so the individual can particiapte as an equal if communities of like minded others are sought out.

The issue is not to have no further relationships, but learning to have relationship in a new way.  The 7th house or Libra person, when in relationships, has a tendency to lose self in those relationships - to assign too much importance to "the other" and lose focus on self.  Libra represents projection, the outpicturing of our own inner states/dynamics onto others, with all the associated expectations and agendas, both from the person onto their partners, and vice versa.  Thus you see the conditions which lead to the losing of Self.  The Soul (Pluto) forgets what it is experiencing through those partners (7th house) is actually its own self and stuff - that means getting pulled as far away from self as one can possibly get - 180 degrees.

Libra also represents extremes (seeking balance) so it would be typical for a 7th house Pluto who is deeply enmeshed in relationship consciousness to envision going 180 degrees in the other direction and just being alone on the mountaintop.  There is plenty to be said for being alone on the mountaintop, but it won't work if its going to swing from one extreme to the other - its just the mirror image of the same thing.  The soul is actually seeking the balance - what is the appropriate balance between aloneness and togetherness.  In the beginning stages of becoming aware of the existing imbalance, a lot of time alone is often a good things.  But the lessons to be learned do relate to relationship (both with self and others), so relationships will come back into the picture, but in a new way, where the soul is beginning to learn not to lose itself in them.  To maintain autonomy, to know when its time to leave the partner and go home for a while, so to speak.

A 7th house Pluto is so used to being in relationships that thoughts of having to be alone are often not pleasant thoughts.  Yet at the same time that Soul knows its growth lies exactly there (1st house polarity), so another part of that Soul welcomes the experience and actually finds relief there.

QuoteWould this type of soul have more aspects in the first house/polarity to pull away from the Pluto position?

That often occurs but there is no hard and fast rule that applies to all Souls.  Taurus/2nd is another symbol one often sees in charts of people like this, the need to become self-sustaining and self-reliant, not dependent.  Or Cancer/Cap. 4th/10th, (squaring 1/7) the need to take responsibility for their own emotional states, to realize their security is actually internal, only appears to be in a partner.

Steve

Hi,
Rad, thanks for the clarification-this building block approach does make more sense than fragmented potential chaos in following multiple threads.
Michelle, thanks for sharing-and everyone else.
I've found the discussion of the chamellion aspect of pluto in the 7th personally interesting in light of also having a 7th house pluto from the pluto libra gen.  Along with north node libra 7th, and pisces rising, venus and moon in first +many neptune aspects and midpoints, ...no doubt the levels of objectivity to see to the core of this chamellion dynamic-not ever understanding its link to a 7th house pluto til now.  Wow!  It makes more sense-another missing piece to the puzzle.
The struggle to be alone or in relationship for the seventh house pluto is interesting.  At some point, I decided I was becoming a serial monogamist. 

Right now, I'm meditating on this question of:  How does this manifest differently-pluto 7th for a herd state vs. the idividuated-->spiritual as discussed earlier  in regards to in our American culture right now?
Is there an internal conflict with the herd state pluto 7th between what our culture teaches what relationship should be vs. what is actually happening/ed in their life.  Or, is it that there is simply not so much interest to the whys of the reality that they are experiencing and living?

Blessings,
Bradley J

Hi Bradley, thanks for the question. In the herd state, the 7th house Pluto person would simply "echo" or conform to the mainstream expectations of what relationships "should be" from a cultural standpoint. If the prevailing norm in the culture is for men/women to relate to each other in specific ways then the herd state 7th house person will unconsciously expect conformity to these socially accepted ways of behavior. In the individuated state, the 7th house Pluto person will be desiring to liberate from these conformity patterns in order to actualize his/her inherent individuality within relationships. The problem within this is that commonly the individual is deeply insecure as to the individuated process, and is dependant upon a partner/relationship for a sense of identity and security. In other words, the person will be unconsciously seeking another who will provide emotional security to feel ok about simply being different and the need to individuate. The chameleon archetype would then manifest as adapting to the expectations of others to be different from others or rebel in certain ways even if it does not reflect the Soul's true individuality. In other words, the individual will unconsciously fulfill the other person's expectations of this nature and loose his or her own sense of individuality by acting in this way.