Old EA Message Board

Hi Mirta.

I just wanted to say that I resonated personally to where you wrote:
"In Individuated stage, individuation is being achieved by recovering projections. The Soul is learning to objectivize (or objectify) her consideration of the other (I mean, not subjective, not considering him as an object, but viewing him objectively in her individuality and with his reality)."

Recovering projections is beautifully put and fits perfectly to my own 2nd house Pluto. My Pluto is conj my Sn in Virgo, with the ruler Mercury in the 3rd House Libra and I can tell you that your phrase of recovering projections is always on my mind 

All the best...
Henrik

Hi Mirta,

Once again your analysis has captured the essence of this EA paradigm, and how it interacts within itself. Your continuing development and evolution within this work is wonderful to experience Mirta. Bravo !

God Bless, Rad

Hi Rad,
Thanks you very much.
These practices are a powerful stimulus  and great opportunityto deepen my understandig.
God Bless
Mirta

Hi Henrik

I am glad with your resonance. Thanks. You have put this theoretical concept in a living EA context.
Recovering projections is also a beautiful concept for me (NN in VII in Taurus, Venus and Sun in Libra, SN in Scorpio, Moon-Uranus in VIII), and very important in junguian psychology, one of the mechanisms that promote individuation.
Certainly you already did the accurate associations regarding the 2nd house Pluto. I noticed also Virgo's part. 
May be you know that what Jung called individuation is a process leading to discover the uniqueness of our soul in its current manifestation, and a way to become more complete human beings. Jung said that we cannot be perfect, but we can aspire to be complete.
Important for Virgo, isn't it?
We generally think that we project "negative" aspects and it may not be easy to understand that we do the same with our qualities. But indeed we project all that we don't accept, repressing it.
And then, when the psique cannot live something within, it looks for it or "finds" it outside in order to experience it.
I believe that guilt and Virgo's feeling of imperfection, of not being ready, may lead to projecting positive traits and abilities. It may take time and work to recognize these aspects, bring them back and reintroject them in our psique.
But it's worth because it not only completes our inner valuation and validation, but it is also crucial to define the other's identity in relationships.
Sorry for my English expression. I am argentine and completely out of practice in speaking and writing in this language.
God Bless
Mirta

Hi Mirta.

Your english is just fine, and then some...

Yes, the agnowledgement to our self of the direct correllation/connection between the inner processes and the outer realities is so important.

Looking forward to the next configuration from Rad. Being able to read your analysis hass also been very helpful.

All the best to you.
Henrik

Hi Practice Chart Group,

Both Henrik and Mirta have done their analysis of the current EA paradigm that we are working with. I need to know if any of the rest of you are planning on working with this paradigm. If not, then we will start a new one.

God Bless, Rad

Hi Rad ...Apologies ...missed the boat on the last thread.. would like to jump on board with the next one!
Maggie

Hi Practice Chart Group,

Ok, seems like it is time to begin a new EA paradigm. This one will have Pluto in the 8th, it's S.Node in the 11th, Pluto's polarity point is the 2nd, and the N.Node is in the 5th.

Let's have a go at it ............

God Bless, Rad

Hi Rad.

In order to not get ahead of myself I'm posting my understanding of Pluto in the 8th house first. Then, after whatever adjustments that has to be made, I thought I'd go ahead and post how the Sn in the 11th has been used to actualize the Pluto (desire) function in the 8th. I hope this is ok...

Pluto, in whatever house or sign, correlates with the desire (often unconscious) of the soul to evolve. However, Pluto also correlates to unconscious security. Thus, to evolve means to move beyond what constitutes the familiar and therein lies the paradox. This may be why Pluto in any sign and house is often associated with degrees of resistance and compulsive behavior. Depending on the archetypes of the sign and house you find Pluto and the evolutionary/karmic past may give us a clue as to whether the change will be progressive and/or cataclysmic. The desires emanating from the soul will be transmitted to and acted out via our Mars function on an instinctual basis. (Is this an ok way of describing it in general?)

Pluto in 8th House
The why as to the Pluto 8th house individual is because the soul desires to evolve and since the 8th house/Scorpio archetype deals with introspection/penetration and the psychology of why, sooner or later one is bound to discover the limits of what we are vs. what we are not. This means that unavoidably (and necessary so from the point of view of the desire of the soul) the limits of what we are (self, compared to others) becomes a focus area in these peoples' lives. To discover a limit/powerlessness is to realize that which we are not (internal/external confrontation) and this forms the basis for that which we need. So we initiate relationships to people and/or symbols that we feel have something that we need that we currently lack. Whereas Pluto in Libra desired to be in a wide variety of relationships, Pluto in Scorpio is more selective about whom they form relationships with. The selection is based on forming relationships to anything that symbolizes something the Pluto in Scorpio person lacks.

Pluto in any house or sign correlates with compulsion. In the 8th house this quality is even more emphasized (double archetype) and it is directed at the desire of power or maybe more to the point, not feeling powerlessness (as in emotionally vulnerable, Scorpio sq Cancer). Can it not be said that we sometimes do things repeatedly that we know (or at least afterwards realize) to be against all logic or rationale? Yet, against our rational judgment, we do it again. Why? It's because such instinctual impulses are associated with unconscious desire (Mars instinctually acting out the desires of Pluto/Soul) (natural inconjunct between 8th/Scorpio and 1st/Aries). However, compulsion can also occur because of unconscious security. In either case compulsive behavior is necessary because it sooner or later leads us to really look deep into ourselves and to identify why we act in such a way.

The following paragraph is actually a question dressed up as a statement: The interesting thing about Pluto in the 8th is that these people KNOW what they need (is this so, at least at some level?). What is at stake is the HOW they go about acquiring what they need. The how implies choice making and this is why karma is heavily emphasized in this configuration. If I initiate an intimate relationship with you because you possess something I desire and then (once I have taken in what I need) leave you, most likely you will feel used. It is bad enough that the relationship is terminated, but the worst part will be that the other person will probably know that they have been used. How will they know? Unless there was a mutual give/take transmutation, one person will remain the same and the other will have gained something. This will be felt (even if it's at an unconscious level) by both parties. Thus karma is set in motion. Also, when most of us initiate a relationship we invest ourselves emotionally and this only adds to the feeling hurt, especially if we feel that the other person had ulterior motives.

The 8th house Pluto may compulsively be drawn or draw unto them situations or people that are seen as holding some source of power or there may be some sort of attraction on the surface that underneath triggers a repulsion (push/pull). The problem with this compulsion is that it invites manipulation. Unless the person is evolved and honest to themselves and others about their intentions, the means to their end may be more important than how it is achieved. . If we only take that which we think we need but do not internalize it (manipulation), then we will have to repeat the process (sooner or later) until it's an integral part of our selves.

If there is a true merging of that which we have initiated a relationship with, then we actually evolve via the 2nd house and internalize this as a resource. Pluto in the 8th represents internal and external confrontations on a cyclical basis because there is a dual desire that is acted upon. This behavior comes from the desire to feel secure (separating) and the desire to grow (return).

Thought: If the symbol that is focused on for growth is not primarily a person in a relationship, then a more stable relationship may be possible. The underlying process of severing the connection to that which represented what we needed (once we have internalized it) may in such a case then not necessarily mean the end of the relationship. In other words, if two people initiate a relationship based on mutual freedom to expand and grow then perhaps a termination of the relationship may be avoided. Obviously this will be rare until some level of individuality has occurred within each person. An interesting thing to ponder is that if you focus on a symbol and not a quality in a person, doesn't this already tell us that the person is in a higher state of evolution because they have been able to realize that a symbol can hold as much power (or more) as another person? This is not the same as people giving power to symbols that are directly linked with people in power. So for example, giving power to the cross as an extension of manmade religion and authoritative regimes is not what I mean. Instead I mean symbols that somehow speak to our soul in such a way that we somehow know that there is a greater truth to be revealed by studying such symbol. In other words, there has been a development within the person towards the abstract which in time will lead us to God/dess, which of course is even more abstract (unless you have already experienced/directly known God/dess).

Any and all feedback is greatly appreciated.

All the best,
Henrik

Hi everyone.

Oops, I just noticed an error in my posting (probably not the only one  ):

"...(as in emotionally vulnerable, Scorpio sq Cancer)."

sq Cancer is obviously not correct.

All the best,
Henrik

Hi Henrik,

Very nice to read your own way of putting together the archetypes within the 8th House Pluto as you have. The issue/ dynamic of 'symbols' can be almost anything within the 8th House Pluto that the Soul can become compulsively orientated too, and the 'power' projected into such symbols reflects the deeper emotional/ psychological issues within the Soul: it's specific pathology. For many whatever these symbols are is 'hidden' from most for the act of keeping it hidden, or private, creates even more power within those symbols for such Souls. These symbols thus correlate to the perceived 'needs' of the Soul and it is those 'needs' that can then become the basis of manipulating people or situations in order to have those needs met. It is this manipulation of situations or people that infers a dishonesty which then becomes the basis of the 'karma' created. It is the basis of 'using' others in order for those needs to be met as well.

Keep going Henrik you are doing great ..............

God Bless, Rad

Hi Rad
Sorry for the delay. I am abroad, working a bit and pretty disorganized.
I intend to post the analysis next week.
Here in Spain, in specialized bookstores, it is still possible to find some copies of Pluto and Uranus in Spanish, both out of print.
God Bless
Mirta

Hi Mirta,

Thanks for letting me know. Amazing about those books still be available in Spanish, yet out of print. I know that JWG told me years ago that Llewellyn has tremendous problems with the person who bought the rights to print in Spanish. He refused to forwards any royalties from the sales to Llewellyn which of course was part of the contract. They even took him to court, got an award, yet that person still failed to pay up. Such a nice world we are in, eh ?

God Bless, Rad

Hi Rad.

Thank you for your feedback.

Following what you wrote my question is:
Is karma two-fold: Karma (good or bad) returning from other people that we have interacted with before and karma returning from the sphere of recorded actions on Gaia (possibly acted out by humans, but not neccessarily from people that we have direct karma with. The second part could also possibly be played out in such a way that residual traces of that karma is connected to us such that we may attract karma from other people through some sort of magnetism)?

The relevance of this question has to do with karma set in motion through manipulation. Is the karma that follows a bi-product of feeling used or is karma set in motion regardless of if the other person realizes the manipulation?

I hope I'm not digressing to much from the purpose of the thread 

All the best,
Henrik

Hi Henrik,

"Following what you wrote my question is: Is karma two-fold: Karma (good or bad) returning from other people that we have interacted with before and karma returning from the sphere of recorded actions on Gaia (possibly acted out by humans, but not neccessarily from people that we have direct karma with."

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Yes, both are possible.

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" The second part could also possibly be played out in such a way that residual traces of that karma is connected to us such that we may attract karma from other people through some sort of magnetism)?"

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Yes, this is possible too. It's also possible for Souls who are highly evolved to attract others with whom they have no specific or individual karma with in order to absorb their karma so as to help them evolve more quickly: to bring specific karmic patterns and dynamics to a point of culmination.

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"The relevance of this question has to do with karma set in motion through manipulation. Is the karma that follows a bi-product of feeling used or is karma set in motion regardless of if the other person realizes the manipulation?"

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Karma, the natural law of, as you know is nothing more than every action ( desire ) having a proportionate reaction: karma. Thus, whether the one who is being manipulated realizes that they are or not is irrelevant to the fact that the one who is doing the manipulating will of course create that karma for themselves.

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God Bless, Rad