Old EA Message Board

Hi Rad,

Thank you so much for offering this thread. I went ahead and wrote up my analysis without looking at what others wrote.  I really just wanted to make sure I actually wrote my analysis up so I could participate in a more active way.  I felt that if I read through other posts first, I would not have then wrote mine up.  Having written mine, I now feel that I can take the time to read through the others.  I hope it is ok with you that I have done it this way.  I really do want to participate and receive your feedback.

Peace,
Ellen


Pluto in the 11th House/SN in the 1st House

This Soul has been engaged in recent lifetimes in breaking free of old conditioning patterns adopted through contact and identification with family, friends, society, work, etc. (Pluto/11th, SN/1st).  There has been a strong evolutionary need to shed old identifications (Pluto/11th) and actively seek out new forms of identity (SN/1st).  As a result of this evolutionary intent, freedom and independence have been strong forces in this Soul's makeup in recent lifetimes.

Pluto in the 11th House.  In all evolutionary stages, the 11th House Pluto Soul has been seeking to disengage in some way (or resisting the evolutionary intent to do so) from the bonds that have chained her/him to the past and to old, outmoded ways of identifying herself/himself.  The stage of development will determine to what extent the Soul has been identifying the origin of the attachment to be within or without and thus to what extent the process has been occurring consciously or unconsciously.   In the Consensus and early Individuated states, the Soul has been understanding the cause for the attachments to be due to external forces; feeling a strong need to belong, the Soul will have been having a hard time tuning into these feelings of disconnect (Consensus) or accepting them (early Individuated) and thus will have been resisting them.  The person in these states has been feeling isolated and alone and, not understanding why, has been projecting these feelings onto society/family/friends/etc, blaming them.  In these stages, the alienated Souls, if fortunate, have found other alienated Souls to hook up with, forming alienated subcultures of belonging.  In either case, there have been strong forces acting on this Soul (unconscious projection), forcing a progressive shift in self-identification.  More advanced Souls (later Individuated and Spiritual states) have progressively seen the cause of the attachments as originating within in the form of desires, old emotional patterns, cultural conditioning, cognitive misunderstandings, etc., and have progressively been able to accurately identify these causes, allowing them to then free themselves of them.  As these Souls have shed the old restrictive patterns, they have also learned how not to become enchained again.

SN in the 1st House.  With the SN in the 1st House, this person has been actively shedding everything from the prior cycle of evolutionary development that has been holding her/him back, or s/he has been actively resisting the evolutionary need and intent to do so.  If s/he has been cooperating with the evolutionary need/intent to shed past obstacles to growth, s/he has most likely actualized the sense of special destiny s/he feels in a positive way, helping to advance society or simply having succeeded in shedding old personal identifications and pioneering for her/himself new forms of identification.  If s/he has been resisting this evolutionary intent, s/he will have been actively working to keep society locked into old moral codes of conduct and traditions, feeling this to be the special destiny s/he has been asked to fulfill.   Or s/he will have been simply isolating her/himself from society at large, relentlessly criticizing society from this angry and desperate place.  Whether this Soul has been actualizing her/his destiny in a constructive or destructive way, there has been a strong need to refrain from developing strong attachments to anyone, any group or any perspective.  This Soul's imperative has been freedom for the purpose of facilitating an objective perspective and presence in the world.  If actualizing in a destructive manner, the Soul would actualize this need in an angry and rebellious manner - using anger and rebellion as a means of breaking off connection with others.  If actualizing in a more constructive manner, the Soul's natural growth processes would lead to feelings of dissatisfaction with the latest status quo and thus an instinctual disengagement with old people, forms, groups, etc. and consequent engagement with new people, forms, groups, etc.  as the need to grow became stronger than the need to belong.  Because of the constant need for growth in terms of identity, the Soul has been experiencing ongoing insecurity in the form of identity crises.  Ultimately, the result of this process for this Soul has been an allegiance to self alone or at least above all else. Depending on the level of awareness of the Soul, this insecurity resulting from the constant need to grow beyond old forms of identity, may have been resulting in feelings of frustration and anger (and possibly violence) directed at others.

PPP in the 5th House and NN in the 7th House

With the PPP in the 5th House and the NN in the 7th House, the evolutionary intent in this lifetime is to develop a strong sense of self and corresponding sense of life purpose by comparing and contrasting possible self-identities as encountered in the context of one-on-one relationships.  Whereas in past lifetimes, the response to identity crisis and insecurity might have led to allegiance to self alone, in this lifetime, the need is to encounter "the other" for the purpose of gaining the perspective needed to understand one's own life purpose better.  Rather than "Who am I?", the question in this lifetime that is wanting and needing to be answered is, "What is my purpose?"  By pursuing (one-on-one) relationships with others, perhaps within the context of larger groups, this Soul will begin the process of discovering her/his purpose and how to actualize it within the context of the larger group.  Resistance to this evolutionary intent will manifest as anger towards "the other" and, as a result, continued allegiance to self alone.  Because such a response will lead to a failure to actualize in the world, in this circumstance the Soul would experience a sense of extreme alienation.  Eventually, this alienation will force the Soul to connect with "the other", initiating the process towards realizing the evolutionary intent of the Soul.  Progressively, the Soul would feel a deeper and deeper sense of special purpose.

For this Soul, "the other" would be the initiator into this realm of special purpose.  Initially there would be resistance to receiving the attention of the other as the Soul would still be oriented towards the culture of one that has allowed her/him to answer the question: Who am I?  But as the Soul progressed, s/he would experience an increasing need for the validation from this other, eventually depending on it.  Because this Soul would still feel that they have to do it all on their own, s/he would instinctually manipulate relationship situations in such a way as to receive the needed attention that s/he cannot yet accept that s/he needs.  On the one hand, the Soul would experience anger towards the other for intruding on her/his independence and freedom.  And on the other hand, the Soul would experience a strong, instinctual need for the other.  From the perspective of the evolutionary intent of the PPP in the 5th and the NN in the 7th, insecurity would be felt in response to the need to let down one's guard and accept the presence of the other in one's life.

As the Soul evolved through this evolutionary intent, s/he would initiate relationships with a wide variety of others, thus allowing her/his unique sense of self to develop and deepen.  As s/he became secure in her/his sense of self and purpose in the world, s/he would progressively come to see the other as her/his equal and co-creator.  One danger of this evolutionary profile would be the cultivation of dependency resulting in a loss of unique sense of identity and the instinctual need to angrily rebel.  Another danger would be instinctually partnering with such a wide variety of people that all perspective was lost, thus resulting further in a confused sense of self and purpose.

Pluto in the 11th house, SN in 1st house, NN in 7th house.

Here's one possible story I can see:
This soul could be a freedom fighter . One who has intensely identified with his mental and ideological views, who has felt different from the prevailing views of his overall environment, with the possibility of identifying with a small group within his society.  He understands that his socialized individuation has value to the whole even if it is only part of the whole.  His south node in 1st house could indicate that he was willing to fight for these views, like a Robin Hood or Che Guevera. He has relied on his instincts to liberate himself and those that share in his views and he would likely have had little patience for anything that stood in the way of his vision or that of his group, resorting to violence without reservation, as long as it aligned with his ideology.
In this life , his soul's intent is to actualize the vision he has been fighting for by learning to have his heart involved and not just his head .  The north node in the seventh would find him relating to others and feeling for them, perhaps even taking on the projections of others who can sense his leadership abilities, and charisma.  He will be learning have a more intimate and heartfelt connection to the needs of the community  and the reality of an ideology when it is actualized with many others, not just the chosen few who share in his views. He will be learning to not act on impulse or with the threat of violence, he will be learning to use harmonious relationship as the vehicle to deliver his vision of liberty and how to do things better.  He wouldn't necessarily lose his ability to fight for what is right but he would learn to temper his instincts to fight with other means. His individuated soul desire for self actualization is in fact realized by the actualization of group values.

Variations on this would be seen depending on his evolutionary state, how much he is resisting actualizing his "differentness", and what the other archetypes are in his chart.

This is what I can do for now,
Thanks, Heather

Pluto 11th - SN 1st - PPP 5th - NN 7th

The core evolutionary desires of (her) Soul that had preceded the current life had been to rebel or liberate herself from consensus value systems due to an emphasized feeling within her psyche of being different.  Her personal, social, political, economic, domestic, relational, artistic and intellectual values were a radical departure from the consensus;  therefore she stood apart - sometimes as a group of one.  The awareness of her relentless "differentness" equated to a sense of alienation from the societal, parental or peer group milieu.  The intention to rebel against the existing society would have taken one of three forms:  absolute rebellion due to feeling totally disconnected;  joining with others as a group who are also rebelling;  or, trying to resurrect the value systems of the past. 

Other core evolutionary intentions of her Soul were "detachment," to objectify and understand, in a non-emotional way, the overall nature and dynamics of anything, how whole systems are structured, how emotional and psychological dynamics are structured - and how this objective understanding can lead to self-knowledge.  Her choices in new pathways reflected a fundamental desire for freedom, exploration and experimentation with life. 

In the evolutionary past, the 1st house archetype needed to initiate a new evolutionary direction because an old cycle had ended.  She would therefore have needed the freedom, independence and adventure to follow the paths that she was instinctively and spontaneously attracted to.  Taking these new paths and directions actually allowed her to learn more about herself, her identity, and who or what she was to become.  Since the function of the 1st house is in a state of continual movement or "becoming," how she identified herself was continually changing and developing.  The egocentric structures created by her Soul took the shape of a personality that appeared to be quite narcissistic and self-orientated, with a special destiny to fulfill. 

The reaction to being different would have expressed itself through her desire nature.  The 1st house is naturally ruled by Mars, the lower octave of Pluto, and an examination of Mars in her chart would give more information.  With the SN in the 1st house, the desires emanating from her Soul would have been brought to egocentric consciousness in a directly instinctive way, and they would have been acted upon immediately. 

If her soul desire to rebel against society took the form of "absolute rebellion due to feeling totally disconnected" then she would have experienced a total disconnection from parents, society and peer group.  Egocentric behaviours expressed via the SN/1st could have been quite confrontational, radical, aggressive, righteous, intellectual, challenging, and defiant to the existing system.  Due to her absolute detachment from the social system, she would have chosen to be independent from groups - becoming a group of one - and preferring to relate, sporadically, to others on an individual basis who were just as alienated as herself.  The intensity of her rebellious vibration naturally challenged the security of others. 

If her soul desired to "interact with others in group situations," then the choices she made served her own needs, and her own sense of meaning and purpose in some way.  She could easily have acted as leader of the group.  Her friends would have had the same orientation as her:  shared values, rebelling against society, strong sexual nature, narcissistic types - with the sense of purpose and meaning dependent on belonging to a group.  Magnetic attractions to others in the group expressed a strong sexual desire nature, perhaps of a bi-, homosexual or experimental kind, together with an instinctual fear of becoming too enmeshed in any relationship.  Also, as soon as her strong curiosity was satisfied in any relationship, she rebelled against the idea of any commitment.  The purpose for these sexual adventures was to gain self-knowledge as to her basic sexual nature, and to learn essential evolutionary lessons around the nature of friendship.

If her soul tried to "resurrect the value systems of the past" (eg social dinosaur), then she would have rebelled against all present day value systems, and formed friendships only with those of like-mind who were just as iconoclastic and fixed as she was.  Her value system would have been very limited, rigid, conservative and traditional.   

The next step in her evolution is demonstrated by the Pluto polarity point in the 5th house.  The core bottom line desire correlates to learning how to separate from the peer group so that she can actualize her own unique individuality, destiny, creativity, willpower and value systems.  In order to do this she must learn how to creatively actualize her own purpose within the larger social group and within society as a whole.  In objectifying the values of any group, any value system, or any emotional or psychological dynamics within relating to others, she learns whether or not those values or dynamics will be conducive and beneficial to her own special individual creative purposes.

The North Node 7th correlates to the evolving egocentric structure that she is creating that allows the Pluto polarity point to be actualized:  she is learning that by embracing the individual needs of a partner or friend that she herself will attract others who will do the same for her.  She is learning how to give rather than create relationships where the others must serve only her needs and purposes.  Relationships are a new pattern for her - and so she is breaking free from fear and the patterns of the past for complete freedom.  She is learning to make different choices in life:  to overcome her earlier fear of commitment in relationships. 

She came from a past life orientation where her reality was of primary importance, but through the 7th house NN she is grasping the reality of another person, how to listen, how to give, when to give, when not to give - rather than just using others for her own purposes and then discarding them.  By listening to the reality of her partner, she will be able to grasp their needs and give according to their reality.  Relationships for her have the potential for balancing her basic need for independence with supporting another person, therefore she is learning how to be free within a relationship, how to give time to herself, and how to give time to her partner.

The 7th house dynamic could attract a partner with a submissive orientation, perhaps one who is very needy for commitment.  This is brought about by the 5th house polarity point, the current evolutionary intention, the need for control, and for everything to revolve around her.  She could revert to the security of the past, by creating an exit point in the relationship, or she could learn how to objectify the dynamics in the relationship, thereby learning the fundamental lessons of balance and equality.

I was trying to think of how shock/trauma would manifest in this chart and Linda's insight that s/he might have bi/homosexual tendencies led me to think that the shock/trauma would come about in the form of moments of self-realization in terms of sexuality.  Self-realization would come about from the realization that s/he found her/himself feeling aroused by someone of the same gender.  This would create internal shocks as the realization would come as a complete surprise to this individual, coming to realize it only after the instinctual action brought it to her/his consciousness. This realization would then lead to a choice ranging anywhere from complete denial (and thus becoming a staunch defender of "traditional" values) to complete acceptance (and possibly promiscuity as another form of self-destruction if s/he could not deal with the realization...?).  If s/he chose denial, s/he would feel increasingly alienated from the world and from her/himself.  This course could lead, in extreme cases, to suicide (violence inflicted at self) or violence directed outward, even to the point of killing another.  This person in this circumstance of denial would probably lead a double life, unable to completely suppress her/his natural and instinctual tendencies and also unable to completely suppress the natural evolutionary intent to experiment with identity as a means of growth.  Since there is a narcissistic orientation to the 1st house archetype and a self-centered orientation to the 5th house, it is possible that this person would not be aware of the impact her/his actions have on others.  Thus, shocks/traumas could come about in the aftermath of whatever actions s/he took in relation to others as s/he saw the results of that action as it impacted others.  S/he may experience person after person (perhaps lover after lover) leaving her/him in response to her/his narcissistic orientation.  This would certainly create shocks of awareness that would ultimately lead to growth.  A possible seed of this narcissistic orientation that led to the loss of lovers could be the social rejection s/he faces/faced, leading to unhealed wounding.  The repeated failure of relationship would be necessary to awaken her/him to this unhealed wound and thus begin the process of healing it....

That's what I can come up with...

Ellen

Addition: positive/constructive expression of this evolutionary signature could be the partnering with someone of the same gender (culture of 2) and associating with other glbt people (11th house), and from this place of fringe identity and relationship, develop a strong sense of identity and awareness.  This then could lead to participation, from the outside, in the slow but hopefully progressive enlightenment of society at large.

One question: would this person NECESSARILY be gay/bi?  Or could the sexual nature of this archetype still play out evolutionarily even if straight..?

Further addition: One thought I had in the case of someone who wasn't gay - if this is possible with this signature.  But the possibility could be someone born into a puritan kind of family/cultural environment.  Then, just the discovery of her/himself as a sexual being would constitute a shock that would trigger the evolutionary growth required.

Hi Rad,

I was wondering if the sexual distortion seen in something like NAMBLA (National Association for Man-Boy Love) could be a manifestation of this chart...?

5th house - children
1st house - sexual instinct (distorted!)
11th house - groups
7th house - equality and one-on-one relationship (distorted!)

Ellen

SEE CORRECTED POST BELOW
A couple of more thoughts:

natural inconjunct between the 7th house (NN) and the 11th house (Pluto):  thus crisis is inbuilt in this signature, in addition to shock/trauma, in terms of making progress towards the evolutionary intent.

natural trine between the PPP (5th house) and the SN (1st house): not sure how this would play out.  To take a shot at it, the 5th house PPP would easily draw upon the 1st house SN.  This to me suggests and increase in the tension between choosing to be a culture of one vs. the evolutionary intent of forming partnerships to gain greater perspective on self.

natural sextile between the 11th house (Pluto) and the 1st house (SN):

natural sextile between the 5th house (PPP) and the 7th house (NN):

Sextile suggests opportunity that can be taken advantage of if the person makes an effort to do so.  To me this suggests the possibility of focusing solely on the past or solely on the future, depending on where the Soul takes advantage.  I suppose it is possible to take advantage of both.  Possibly in this case the trine between the future (PPP) and past (SN) - the ease of this - leads to crisis (inconjunct between NN and Pluto).  And this combination awakens the sextile opportunities.  Just taking a crack at this....  Thought thinking about the aspects might be relevant....  Any validity to this?

Peace,
Ellen

Hi
I apologize for my english expression.

I really appreciate the attention , time and knwledge that Rad, Deva, Steve,  and Adina, are offering in this forum with great generosity.
I also appreciate the participation of all members, whose questions, insights and practice are an opportunity for me to learning.

Hi Rad
This is my first try.
It is perhaps too abstract or theoretical.
May be it is a leftover of my astrological practice. In psychological astrology I prefer to remain in an archetypal level when I analize a chart in order to avoid my own projections.
For me it is like an understanding framework. Then, the prson's experience gives "flesh" and definition to it.
I would like to know if it is a background or a load, a handicap, to EA reasoning.

Pluto in 11th House - South Node in 1st House, North Node in 7th House.

The pre-existing dynamic of this soul - prior to Pluto in 11th. , was one of conforming to social or/and familial expectations and ways of self -defining.
Now, from prior lifetimes nearer to this one, the Soul is trying to liberate from this need to conforming to society.(Capricorn, 10th House)
The Soulmay also be needing, and intending, to liberate from past life memories held within the individuated unconscious (Uranus).

There are three ways in whichindividuals with Pluto in 11th H. react to this evolutionary intent.
One of them is more uranian in nature, and the other 2 are more related to the saturnian aspect of Aquarius, that is, they react resisting the impulse to liberation and sticking to tradition.
I think it depends on the evolutionary stage. In  the Individuated stage the Soul will accept and develop the intent of liberation, in Consensus stage it will stick to society, to tradition. In each stage, to less evolution would correspond more resistance.
The reaction could also depend on other factors in the chart.

I will take only the first reaction, the uranian, for the sake of simplicity.
Also because, although it depends on all the factors in the chart, this evolutionary/karmic dynamic seems to me orientated to liberation.
May be with an 10th House South Node, or even with 4th,6th or 3rd H. SN I would be thinking of more resistance to the intent. Is that correct or am I confusing levels of interpretation?

I took this reaction because:
JWG said that liberation from cattle consciousness (Capricorn, Saturn) demands Arian courage, even to stand as a group of one if necesary.
This Arian courage could have been provided by the egocentric structures that thios Soul took, reflected in her South Node.

Here I wonder if resistance to liberation resides in the Soul (because of dual desires) and therefore she takes these egocentric structures.
Or if the egocentric structures are who hold the resistance or develop the necessary courage to liberate.
Or both?.

Then, from this SN we can infere that this Soul tried to liberate initiating new experiences, mostly in relationships. She has beeen living a brand new cycle.
The goal was self-discovering and discovering new things.
May be she did it in an egocentrical and uncontroled way, but always in search of freedom and independence.
May be she also experienced a conflict between manifesting that freedom and resisting the evolutionary impulses, that lead to cyclical crises.
Anyway, the need of independence was compulsive
And the impulse to create new relationships, new experiences was,in a way, instintive.
The relationships she probably sought was with people who could help to answer her questions: Who am I?, What am I? in a de-conditioned way.
And she sought this answers in the experience.

There is an inherent paradox in 1/7 nodal axis, between being independent or in relationships.
Jung said that the way to surmount an opposition in finding what in essence is common in them, that is finding the unity behind the duality.
I believe that the way to overcome, to surmount it,is develping the capacity to be in a relationship of equality and independence, where no one "needs" the other for any motive, but both are together because they want to.
That is, being in relationship in a not dependent way.

There is a similar paradox, I believe, in Aquarius, although different in quality, perhaps a higher vibrational or evolutionary octave.
It is between being an independt individual (individuated if more evolved), and being part of a group, part of society, Humanity.
I think that the differencfe that exists in this similarity is that in 1/7 the alternative is individuality or partnership.
In Aquarius it is individuation or group relationship.
And individuality is still egoic. Individuation and indivduated group relationship means detaching from the ego, from the egocentric individuality.

In this Soul,that would be the intent behind the 1/7 relationship tests and trials.

PLUTO'S POLARITY POINT
The PPP is to take command of his destiny, to creatively actualize it.
It means not only to establish her own self-definition and goals, but also to creatively actualize them, to transform them in action, in concrete realities.

To do that is necessary:
1) to minimize her need of security based on other's acceptacion.
This involves not waiting that other people confirm her ideas; not waiting that other act first to be able to acting.
It also involves the need of accepting her own difference, and even affirming it. In this difference resides her power and ability to self actualization.
2) The Soul, in whatever evolutionary condition,by means of her egocentric structure,needs learning to be objective.
That is the key to liberating from past conditioning.
This means, relative to Leo polarity, that consciousness needs learn to detach form its own subjective reality as the only point of view of reality.
and, again, that means detaching form the ego.

Then, consciousness needs to become objective.
And to attain objectivity we need to be more conscious, i.e. to change a subjective-instintive attitude into a conscious attitude.
JWG said that the act of rebellion is a necessary psychological act for individuation to occur.
And Jung said that the conscious elaboration of unconscious material is fundamental to achieve the individuation process.
JWG  also said that only suffering because of a karmic imbalance we don't resolve the pattern, we have to understand it, to make it conscious. (I hope I am correctly rememebering what I read somewhere in his writings).

Here is where the North Node in 7th House takes its part in the process, trying to actualize objectivity through a different form of living the relationships.
In 1st. House independence is an instintive impulse.
In 7th House independence becomes a conscious attitude.
The Soul will initiate different realtionships in order to learn through comparison and contrast, through recognizing the other's perspective.

In 1st House she always needed to oppose to someone in order to feel independent or different (somehow as a teenager does).
But the need to have someone to whom oppose involves a dependence. The self definition may be "not being like the other", instead of "being myself".
In 7th House the goal is to attain an attitude of not needing to oppose, not needing to agree, not "needing the other" in that sense, thus not depending.
The goal will then be:being actually independent because the ultimate sense of security is found within the inner universe (Aquarius).

May be the NN  (after many lifetimes) will attain this actaulization through a "test and trial" sequence of experiences in wich, may be,
a) The Soul lives relationships in which she is the dominant person.
b) Relationships where she is dominated ( here she has the oppportunity to atone and to understand, become more conscious)
c) Eventually she establishes relationships based on equality, not defensive and with mutual commitment.
Equality means also gender roles (not only power), and that can lead to the construction of the androgynous interior self.
This libran androgynous within can be the foundation of the aquarian whole interior universe.

I believe this can be achieved in the Individuated Stage.
In consensus stage realtionships are still based on hierarchy and unconsious projections, also gender projections.
However, the effort to attain objectivity and to establish relationships of equality can help to evolve into the Individuated stage.

When the Northe Node has provided the possibility of equal relationships, it will be more possible for this Soul to establish relationships with like-minded people who reflects the way she sees life and society.
And also to participate in goups in an individuated manner, what is also another aspect of her evolutionary intent.

I am sorry, Rad for the length of this practice, for not being able to synthesize this raw material.
God Bless
Mirta

A couple of more thoughts:

natural inconjunct between the 7th house (NN) and the 11th house (Pluto):  thus crisis is inbuilt in this signature, in addition to shock/trauma, in terms of making progress towards the evolutionary intent.

Correction: this is not correct.  There is a natural TRINE between the 7th (NN) and 11th (Pluto), thus setting up a mystic rectangle.  Perhaps this simply signifies the ease with which one on one relationships would come about through group engagement.


natural trine between the PPP (5th house) and the SN (1st house): not sure how this would play out. To take a shot at it, the 5th house PPP would easily draw upon the 1st house SN.  This to me suggests an increase in the tension between choosing to be a culture of one vs. the evolutionary intent of forming partnerships to gain greater perspective on self.

natural sextile between the 11th house (Pluto) and the 1st house (SN):

natural sextile between the 5th house (PPP) and the 7th house (NN):

Sextile suggests opportunity that can be taken advantage of if the person makes an effort to do so.  To me this suggests the possibility of focusing solely on the past or solely on the future, depending on where the Soul takes advantage.  I suppose it is possible to take advantage of both.  Possibly in this case the trine between the future (PPP) and past (SN) - the ease of this - leads to crisis (inconjunct between NN and Pluto).  And this combination awakens the sextile opportunities.  Just taking a crack at this....  Thought thinking about the aspects might be relevant....  Any validity to this?

This also is wrong.  Because there in no inconjunct, but instead 2 trines, both sextiles would be active at the same time, with both trines enlisting both the past and present evolutionary intents...


Peace,
Ellen

Hi green,

Quote from: begreen on Nov 13, 2010, 10:50 AM
hi rad.
are you referring to unadressed evolutionary intentions of 11th house pluto, or of combined pluto with n & s nodes?

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In combination with the Nodes.

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can you say more about how the analysis reflects 2nd stage individuated?

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Here is what is posted on the main website about the Individuated Evolutionary Stage: the three divisions within it including the 2nd Stage Individuated.

In the first subdivision the Soul will typically try to "˜compensate´ for this inner feeling of being different, of not belonging to the consensus, and the inner sense of alienation by trying to "˜appear´ normal. This compensation will then cause the Soul to structure their outer reality much as Souls do in the consensus state: normal kinds of work, normal kinds of friends, the normal appearance, and so on. Yet inwardly their feel and know that they can no longer personally identify with that compensatory reality that they attempt to sustain. This compensation manifests in this subdivision because, after all, the consensus is just where the Soul has been. Thus, it constitutes a sense of security relative to the inner feeling of being detached and different. We must remember that for most people the sense of security for life is a function of self-consistency. And self-consistency is a function of the past. As a result the compensation manifests as a reaction to this increasingly new feeling of being different, of not belonging anymore to the consensus. This feeling creates a sense of insecurity in this subdivision because is it brand new: the Soul has not been here before. Yet this very act of compensation creates a very real state of being in a "˜living lie´.

Even as this compensatory behavior occurs the Soul will nonetheless will be questioning everything deep within themselves: the privacy of their own inner life. Typically, they will read all kinds of books that contain ideas that go way beyond the "˜norm´ as defined by the consensus. Many, depending on cultural possibilities, will take classes or workshops that have the same theme or intention. Some will seek out these kinds of "˜alternative´ environments in order to find and bond with others of "˜like mind´: others who feel just as they do. This compensatory behavior will progressively give way, involution, as the Soul evolves further through this subdivision. The Soul will progressively distance itself from the consensus and begin to form relationships with other alienated Souls just like itself. Because of the necessity of work, or a job, most of these Souls will either do any kind of work just to get by without identifying with such work in any way, or they will actualize a work that is individualistic and symbolic of their own individuality.

In the second subdivision the underlying archetype of Uranus as it correlates to rebellion is at it's highest. This rebellion is so extreme that the Soul has now "˜thrown off´ almost any idea or philosophy that has come before at any level of reality. Such Souls end up in a kind of existential void and typically hang out with other such alienated Souls that has the effect of reinforcing the total state of rebellion from all of reality other than the reality that they have now defined through the existential void.

These Souls will exhibit a deep fear of integrating into society in any kind of way for the fear suggests to them that if they do so that somehow that very same society or reality will absorb their hard won, at least to them, individuality which is defined through the act or rebellion in this stage. As a result these Souls typically hang out on the avant-garde of society hurling critical atom bombs at it so as to reinforce there sense of personal righteousness defined by their alienation from the consensus. Because of the natural law of evolution, which is always preceded by an involution, these people at some point will realize that their fear of integrating into reality, into society, is just that: a fear only. Once this is realized they will them begin to make the effort to integrate back into society but with their individuality in tact. Once this is realized the Soul will then evolve into the third subdivision within the individuated state.

In the third subdivision the Soul will then begin to manifest within society or reality as truly unique and gifted people from the point of view of the consensus. This means that such Souls will have in some way a unique gift, or capacity, to help the consensus itself evolve by integrating that capacity or gift within the consensus. Yet these people will not inwardly feel identified with the consensus: they are standing inwardly very distant from it. The consciousness of these Souls have progressively expanded through the individuated state in such a way that they are aware of the entire world and the relativity of beliefs, values, moralities, and so on. As a result they will feel within themselves to be "˜world citizens´ much more than being a singular citizen of the country of birth. The inner pondering as to the very nature of existence, the nature of Creation, the nature of who they "˜really´ are essentially defines the nature of their consciousness. Progressively these people begin to really open up their consciousness to the universal, the cosmos, to God/ess. Not the God/ess defined through consensus religions but the real or natural God/ess. A perfect example in recent history that reflects such a soul is Albert Einstein. Another example would be Carl Jung.

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God Bless, Rad

Hi blueksy,

Quote from: bluesky on Nov 13, 2010, 12:12 PM
Hi Rad and all:

I am wondering if the 11th house pluto archetype in the consensus could, on a neutral level, be simply about progress in the area of improvement of life conditions - ie. upgrading the quality of lifestyle.

any feedback and thoughts would be appreciated.

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Yes, this can be but that desire would occur as a result of other archetypal processess that occur within the 11th House Pluto. Those processes would then lead to such a desire, and the S.Node in the 1st House would then be linked with that desire by way of determining from within itself what special or unique abilities the Soul had for that to be actualized.

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God Bless, Rad

Hi Ellen,

Very, very good effort at trying to demonstrate the differences in the different EA conditions, and the interrelationship between Pluto, the Nodes, and the polarity point for Pluto.

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"For this Soul, "the other" would be the initiator into this realm of special purpose.  Initially there would be resistance to receiving the attention of the other as the Soul would still be oriented towards the culture of one that has allowed her/him to answer the question: Who am I?  But as the Soul progressed, s/he would experience an increasing need for the validation from this other, eventually depending on it."

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The actual role of 'the other' is to teach the Soul to be an equal within society at large, and in it's personal interactions with others in general. It is to teach the Soul of what others actually need according to themselves, not what this Soul thinks that others need. This then requires the Soul to learn how to 'listen' to others in such a way as then to be able to 'objectify' the realities of others, versus a subjective projection upon others of who the Soul thinks that they are, and what they need. There is a core narcissism within the Pluto in the 11th, S.Node in the 1st that needs to be eliminated or purged from within this Soul. Thus, the polarity point of Pluto, and the N.Node in the 7th in order to learn that this Soul is an equal to others that is learning to give, not take. In learning to give to others what they actually need then enforces this lesson in learning to listen to others as they actually are, and that, in turn, progressively evolves the Soul from the existing inner orientation to itself from the self centered narcissist to an equal among everyone else. One of the roles of the 'other' then is to help keep this Soul aligned with that core evolutionary intention by way of the feedback that the other provides.

Good job !

God Bless, Rad

Hi Heather,

What you came up with is fine, it is within the realm of achetypal possiblities.

God Bless, Rad

Hi Linda,

Exceptional EA analysis that would primarily apply to the Individuated Evolutionary Stage. If you feel  like it see if you can come up with an EA analysis that would apply to the Consensus State. Again, for me, it is just wonderful to experience your own ongoing evolution and understanding of EA. Bravo.

God Bless, Rad

Hi Mirta,

You did just fine for a very first effort. I would encourage you to read what others have written as well. And the length is just fine Mirta.

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Quote from: mirta on Nov 14, 2010, 06:46 AM
Hi
I apologize for my english expression.

I really appreciate the attention , time and knwledge that Rad, Deva, Steve,  and Adina, are offering in this forum with great generosity.
I also appreciate the participation of all members, whose questions, insights and practice are an opportunity for me to learning.

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Hi Rad
This is my first try.
It is perhaps too abstract or theoretical.
May be it is a leftover of my astrological practice. In psychological astrology I prefer to remain in an archetypal level when I analize a chart in order to avoid my own projections.
For me it is like an understanding framework. Then, the prson's experience gives "flesh" and definition to it.
I would like to know if it is a background or a load, a handicap, to EA reasoning.

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No, it is important to stay within the realm of the archetypes themselves. So it is not a handicap in anyway: it is the right way to do this work.

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Pluto in 11th House - South Node in 1st House, North Node in 7th House.

The pre-existing dynamic of this soul - prior to Pluto in 11th. , was one of conforming to social or/and familial expectations and ways of self -defining.
Now, from prior lifetimes nearer to this one, the Soul is trying to liberate from this need to conforming to society.(Capricorn, 10th House)
The Soulmay also be needing, and intending, to liberate from past life memories held within the individuated unconscious (Uranus).

There are three ways in whichindividuals with Pluto in 11th H. react to this evolutionary intent.
One of them is more uranian in nature, and the other 2 are more related to the saturnian aspect of Aquarius, that is, they react resisting the impulse to liberation and sticking to tradition.
I think it depends on the evolutionary stage. In  the Individuated stage the Soul will accept and develop the intent of liberation, in Consensus stage it will stick to society, to tradition. In each stage, to less evolution would correspond more resistance.
The reaction could also depend on other factors in the chart.

I will take only the first reaction, the uranian, for the sake of simplicity.
Also because, although it depends on all the factors in the chart, this evolutionary/karmic dynamic seems to me orientated to liberation.
May be with an 10th House South Node, or even with 4th,6th or 3rd H. SN I would be thinking of more resistance to the intent. Is that correct or am I confusing levels of interpretation?

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The resistance would be a function of the individual nature or each Soul. No astrological symbol, of itself, would correlate with a resistance to the evolutionary imperatives of the Soul. When resistance occurs then it is necessary to determine, from an EA point of view, why that resistance is occurring.

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I took this reaction because:
JWG said that liberation from cattle consciousness (Capricorn, Saturn) demands Arian courage, even to stand as a group of one if necesary.
This Arian courage could have been provided by the egocentric structures that thios Soul took, reflected in her South Node.

Here I wonder if resistance to liberation resides in the Soul (because of dual desires) and therefore she takes these egocentric structures.
Or if the egocentric structures are who hold the resistance or develop the necessary courage to liberate.
Or both?.

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The resistance, when observed, occurs from within the Soul.

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God Bless, Rad

Hi Ellen,

Quote from: Ellen on Nov 14, 2010, 05:53 AM
I was trying to think of how shock/trauma would manifest in this chart and Linda's insight that s/he might have bi/homosexual tendencies led me to think that the shock/trauma would come about in the form of moments of self-realization in terms of sexuality.  Self-realization would come about from the realization that s/he found her/himself feeling aroused by someone of the same gender.  This would create internal shocks as the realization would come as a complete surprise to this individual, coming to realize it only after the instinctual action brought it to her/his consciousness. This realization would then lead to a choice ranging anywhere from complete denial (and thus becoming a staunch defender of "traditional" values) to complete acceptance (and possibly promiscuity as another form of self-destruction if s/he could not deal with the realization...?).  If s/he chose denial, s/he would feel increasingly alienated from the world and from her/himself.  This course could lead, in extreme cases, to suicide (violence inflicted at self) or violence directed outward, even to the point of killing another.  This person in this circumstance of denial would probably lead a double life, unable to completely suppress her/his natural and instinctual tendencies and also unable to completely suppress the natural evolutionary intent to experiment with identity as a means of growth.  Since there is a narcissistic orientation to the 1st house archetype and a self-centered orientation to the 5th house, it is possible that this person would not be aware of the impact her/his actions have on others.  Thus, shocks/traumas could come about in the aftermath of whatever actions s/he took in relation to others as s/he saw the results of that action as it impacted others.  S/he may experience person after person (perhaps lover after lover) leaving her/him in response to her/his narcissistic orientation.  This would certainly create shocks of awareness that would ultimately lead to growth.  A possible seed of this narcissistic orientation that led to the loss of lovers could be the social rejection s/he faces/faced, leading to unhealed wounding.  The repeated failure of relationship would be necessary to awaken her/him to this unhealed wound and thus begin the process of healing it....

That's what I can come up with...

Ellen

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Yes, all this is possible within this paradigm ............

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Addition: positive/constructive expression of this evolutionary signature could be the partnering with someone of the same gender (culture of 2) and associating with other glbt people (11th house), and from this place of fringe identity and relationship, develop a strong sense of identity and awareness.  This then could lead to participation, from the outside, in the slow but hopefully progressive enlightenment of society at large.

One question: would this person NECESSARILY be gay/bi?  Or could the sexual nature of this archetype still play out evolutionarily even if straight..?

Further addition: One thought I had in the case of someone who wasn't gay - if this is possible with this signature.  But the possibility could be someone born into a puritan kind of family/cultural environment.  Then, just the discovery of her/himself as a sexual being would constitute a shock that would trigger the evolutionary growth required.

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No, it is not necessary at all. Yes, the EA intent can be played out by being straight.

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God Bless, Rad