Old EA Message Board

Dear One and All,

Introducing myself, I'm Lila and really looking forward to participating and learning from these threads.

EVOLUTIONARY STAGES

Thanks to Linda, Daniel and Rad for your interesting comments.

I appreciate and understand Evolutionary Stages from a global perspective and it's fundamental in understanding how different archetypes live out differently in different people; But there are some descriptions and examples of Evolutionary Stages that i question and don't understand. It's a really complex discussion. Thanks Linda for the links to previous threads. I suppose my biggest question is concerning the proportions of people in each stage. I cannot believe that's its a constantly static proportion of the population. We are living in such extraordinary times of change. Are there not larger proportions of consensus moving into individuated? And possibly the same is true from individuated to spirituated but to a much smaller degree (or not) these are simply questions i ask myself?

And when transitioning from one stage to the next, is that logically where we feel we can relate to both (all) the stages simultaneously? Rad's comment's certainly help clarify that feeling:

Quote from: Rad on Nov 25, 2014, 08:03 AM

One thing to consider when a person says that they can identify with different parts of the four natural evolutionary states is the fact that all charts have an 11th House, the planet Uranus, the sign of Aquarius somewhere, all have a Neptune, 12th House, and the sign Pisces somewhere. Thus even if a Soul is entrenched in the Saturn, Cap, 10th House consensus evolutionary state they will identify, in some way, with the archetypes that are attempting to evolve them beyond that. This of course also applies to someone, say, in the 1st stage individuated in that they will identify with these ongoing evolutionary archetypes that are attempting to lead them forwards.

This can also be understood relative the the various planetary phases that exist within a birth between any two planets. The Last Quarter and Balsamic Phases are also archetypes who intent is to help the Soul evolve beyond where it currently is. Thus, any two planets in such phases will correlate to those archetypes that exist with the CURRENT STATE OF EVOLUTIONARY CONSCIOUSNESS FOR ANY GIVEN SOUL.

Many thanks to Linda and Cat for hosting this thread!

Lila

Hi All,
I am very excited for these threads to start! Thanks to all participating.
Thank you Linda & Cat for your energy and effort. For being great examples of tending to this community garden that is the EA message board. (Karma Yoga in action.)

God bless,

Katherine

Hi Jen,

Just a quick comment re your experiencing guilt...

While it's true as Linda said a certain kind of guilt is a hallmark of the 1st spiritual stage, guilt itself can arise for all manner of reasons, and in different stages - it isn't exclusive to 1st spiritual. Also for example really wanting to help others on a deep level can occur in 3rd individuated as well as in the spiritual stage.

So for example, it's necessary to be as clear as possible about the nature of the guilt - if it has a pattern it may not necessarily be indicative of 1st spiritual, instead it may be a specific karmic issue. If it's more generalized however it may be indicative of 1st spiritual.

Also talking now in a more general vein, it's natural to aspire to be the best we can be, and this may lead to identifying with a stage that appeals to us. However it's very important to get our stage correct as otherwise the real meaning of our whole chart can be missed, and that is of no use at all. When our evolutionary stage is correctly assessed everything in the chart becomes so much easier to comprehend in terms of karmic links between lifetimes up to the present, thus leading to the true liberating understanding of the present - understanding that sets us free no matter what stage we are in. So it's much more important to get our stage right than what that stage/sub-stage actually is.

And even though there are 3 main stages, and 3 substages with each stage, there are even further divisions. For example take the 3rd stage individuated - a substage of the Individuated stage. It itself has 3 stages (so these are sub-sub-stages). The beginning if 3rd stage individuated, the middle, and the end of 3rd stage individuated. There is no question the person is in the final individuated stage, but these different parts of that process are all different from each other, especially the beginning of the 3rd individuated and the end of it are noticeably different - at the beginning of the 3rd individuating it's like coming to rest by a cool bubbling stream on a hillside after bracing the hot steamy canyons of the 2nd individuated for so long. The end of the 3rd individuated stage is very different from this, its like being in a large riverboat moving effortlessly downstream on a large river, and sensing that not far away, soon the river will emerge into the sea itself. There is intense anticipation of something magical about to take place when the river will give way to the ocean, yet sometimes reluctance to give up the pleasures and richness of the river, all its variety, its lush banks, its homeliness, its abundant bounty and its comforts, its many places to rest.

Then in between each main stage (consensus, individuated and spiritual) are transition voids, where a strong vortex of evolutionary pressure swirls, where the past and future are like strong tides pulling the soul in alternative directions, a pull for a while forward into the new, then a pull back into the past, a seesaw process for a while during which time it can be confusing for the soul until it sheds its doubts and overcomes its fears and stabilizes its journey on the new level of vibration. (And in fact this process happens in a lessor way between the substages in each stage too.)

First spiritual is finally leaving the riverboat on the shore and swimming out to sea, naked. Initially can be great doubt as to whether this is even sane. Especially in the beginning, 24 hours a day feeling tiny. From feeling hugely uplifted at times and in others feeling very vulnerable and unsteady. Trust is paramount.

I'm not suggesting that you are not in the spiritual stage at all, and my immediate previous paragraphs were speaking generally. But rather I am just commenting on your own brief comments about why you feel you are the stage you are, and saying that it is good to qualify our reasons as much as possible to make sure we are on track. For instance, as Rad pointed out a chart with extensive Neptune aspects and/or a 12th house and/or Pisces emphasis can certainly make one feel spiritual.

And also as Linda pointed out there is a different feeling to things at a soul level that just reverberate so deeply true. But we must bear in mind that for many of us we are not always conscious at the soul level all the time.

While conscious desires at a Mars level do all come form the Soul, they are often noisy and contain much static. It generally takes some reflection upon oneself (and ideally some meditation of some kind - natural and/or practiced) to see ourselves intuitively and objectively enough to see our essential core desires that reveal our true evolutionary sub-stage.

blessings Upasika

Thank you Linda and Upasika for your responses. I greatly appreciate the insights.

EVOLUTIONARY STAGES

I totally agree with the importance of correctly assessing the evolutionary stage and I do not have any desire to be in any stage but only to get it right according to the given definitions. I realize that it can be difficult to fully comprehend the experiences described from a lower stage of consciousness and see that this can be the very issue at hand when trying to assess for oneself. I do not in any way believe myself to be spiritually advanced in a Jesus or Buddha like way and this was my dilemma when trying to assess the state.

When it comes to the guilt, it is mostly about not being good enough or not acting/reacting to life situations according to my inner knowing. I feel the need to apologize, then apologize for apologizing.  
This was reduced when I was detached through spiritual practices but I felt like I wasn't really learning how to apply and integrate my inner knowing then. I understand that the standard I put on myself are not always compassionate of my human nature and part of my daily challenge is about being more accepting and remembering that the value is in the effort.

I resonate with the spiritual state in general and believe myself to be categorized on this level and after further assessment I am more sure of 1st stage. I struggle with the definitions of what is considered spiritual devotion and spiritual practice for example. I do believe that I practice spirituality in my daily life through observation evaluation and adjustment. I feel that I am in my physical mental reality but observing it from my soul. I spent some time with practices that shifted my perception to being in the soul observing my physical reality but felt that this removed my emotional experience of life and connection to the world. I feel that much of my own journey has been about accepting the physical and have found peace within myself through embracing love and acceptance and universal truths. My mind is very quiet and I receive guidance, insights and premonitions very clearly without focusing or trying. This also helps me pick up on misalignments within myself.

I hope that this can help clarify. The words can be so limiting when trying to portray ones inner vibration in such a brief manner.

Thank you again for all the wonderful work you do. I deeply appreciate the opportunity to be a part of this journey with you all.
Jen

Hi Everyone,

I'm wondering if we should try thinking of examples of each stage/substage combination. This may make it easier. We have already identified Christ and Buddha as 3rd Stage spiritual.  This makes it easier for many of us to know we are not at that level yet :-)  I am thinking that examples of other stages may help as well. 

I once did a practice chart on Mother Teresa. Without giving it a lot of thought, Spiritual Stage is the first thing that comes to mind due to all of her devotion to God and service to humanity, right?  She was actually third stage Consensus. 

Please feel free to post further examples.  We can then put them into a chart that everyone can refer to. This may help some people.

cat

Hi Jen, Upasika, Cat and everyone,


EVOLUTIONARY STAGE

Quote from: Jen on Nov 26, 2014, 04:31 AMI resonate with the spiritual state in general and believe myself to be categorized on this level and after further assessment I am more sure of 1st stage. I struggle with the definitions of what is considered spiritual devotion and spiritual practice for example. I do believe that I practice spirituality in my daily life through observation evaluation and adjustment. I feel that I am in my physical mental reality but observing it from my soul. I spent some time with practices that shifted my perception to being in the soul observing my physical reality but felt that this removed my emotional experience of life and connection to the world. I feel that much of my own journey has been about accepting the physical and have found peace within myself through embracing love and acceptance and universal truths. My mind is very quiet and I receive guidance, insights and premonitions very clearly without focusing or trying. This also helps me pick up on misalignments within myself.

Jen, You have shared that you resonate with 1st stage Spiritual, and that you are "more sure of" this stage.

I have highlighted the sentences that, imo, are key to assessing your sub-stage of 1st Spiritual.

Further to Upasika's sharings, this is how the stage/sub-stage structure looks:  


SPIRITUAL EVOLUTIONARY CONDITION

1st Stage of Spiritual

1st sub-stage ~ beginning (cardinal)
2nd sub-stage ~ established (fixed)
3rd sub-stage ~ culminating (mutable)

2nd Stage of Spiritual

1st sub-stage ~ beginning (cardinal)
2nd sub-stage ~ established (fixed)
3rd sub-stage ~ culminating (mutable)

3rd Stage of Spiritual

1st sub-stage ~ beginning (cardinal)
2nd sub-stage ~ established (fixed)
3rd sub-stage ~ Final Liberation (mutable)



Your highlighted sentences indicate a "maturity" and a "stability" in the 1st stage Spiritual.  I would place you in the transition from 2nd sub-stage of 1st stage Spiritual (established) which is rather like the "fixed" energies (stable), and moving towards the 3rd sub-stage (culminating) which is rather like the "mutable" energies. These are about the Soul desiring experimentation, to move forward, to do more, try more, make changes, and make the transition.

The transition from any stage or sub-stage to the next is described by a sense of "there must be more than this."

From your quote, I sense a stability but also a sense of "there must be more than this."

What do you think, Jen?

~ ~ ~

Upasika, do you agree with the sub-stages being cardinal, fixed and mutable?

~ ~ ~

Cat, thanks for your great suggestion.  I will send some examples of each state soon.  Others can do this too.... I will table it all together.... to help the volunteers determine their Evolutionary Stage.

~ ~ ~

If anyone else would like to share how we can determine Evolutionary Stage in an on-line environment, please go ahead.

Thanks.


Cheers,

Linda

Thank you Linda!

EVOLUTIONARY STAGE

I have been reflecting on how to describe where I am and would like to describe it as stable yet ever shifting. Shifting in a sense that I do not know what I will know tomorrow and stable because that is okay. I am not sure if I feel that there must be something more.. I do, but I am not searching for it. I know that there is more and trust that it will come to me at the right time. My main focus has been on letting go. Removing definitions of myself and everything that has been known. Removing all attachments, knowledge, fears. Being completely open honest and vulnerable. Shedding layer beyond layer of personal, social, cultural and patriarchal conditioning until there seems to be nothing. But there is also everything. Attuning to the flow and guidance of source and to completely surrendering to that guidance. I feel connected and safe. Applying this to daily life is the challenge.

This is the most accurate description of where I am. I truly value and appreciate your input and assessment of my stage and sub-stage and I trust that you have the experience and objective perspective to do so better than myself. I am not sure if the description above changes anything.

Thank you <3
Jen

Thank you Linda and Cat!  This could prove to be the most eye-opening, thorough process I've ever witnessed.  Can't wait to follow along.

chuck

Hi All,
For me, I can think of two things that would be helpful with my understanding of Evolutionary States and this process. 1) A clearer idea of what behaviors and choices would not be made within a certain state/ sub-state i.e. throw a little oil in the water to see how they divide. (Relying on the more experienced folks here.) 2) From the volunteers, some clear WHY's as to their perceived Evolutionary State i.e. quick run down of examples of real events, circumstances, choices. Evidence vs. conjecture.

Maybe, for the other six we could get the bio/ intake at the same time, and then get into pinning down the state/sub-state?

God bless,
Katherine

Welcome Katherine and Chuck!


Welcome Lila, one of our volunteers.

Hi Jen,

I think you're 1st spiritual because it's all starting to add up to that. I find that's often what it comes down to, lots of things all pointing in the same direction. Now that you have said more about yourself it is making it clearer.

These are things that stand out for me, which taken together I feel start adding up to 1st spiritual:    

...much of my own journey has been about accepting the physical
My main focus has been on letting go
Removing definitions of myself and everything that has been known. Removing all attachments, knowledge ...
...helps me pick up on misalignments within myself
...according to my inner knowing
I receive guidance
...completely surrendering to that guidance
I do, but I am not searching for it ...
...trust that it will come to me at the right time
...seems to be nothing. But there is also everything...

Plus, the manner in which you are speaking, the whole way you are expressing yourself.

And Linda, yes that's spot on to me about the sub-sub-stages being cardinal, fixed and mutable like. As long as we remember that many lives can be spent even in a sub-sub-stage so it all plays out over a very long timeframe. And I also agree that the transitions are about feeling empty handed, discontented, feeling the need inwardly to move on.

I also feel you're right too about Jen being stable within the 1st spiritual, feels mature and steady. I think you could be right that Jen is between the middle and last sub-stage of 1st stage spiritual.  

And also Cat and Katherine calling for concrete examples of people in each stage and sub-stage, and disparate behaviors and choices also makes a lot of sense (although we'd need a bit of time to put that together)

Thanks Jen for being so free, flowing and relevant in your expression of yourself, really is helpful.

blessings Upasika

EXAMPLES OF STAGES OF EVOLUTION



CONSENSUS

Susan Boyle - 2nd/3rd stage Consensus
Queen Elizabeth I - 3rd stage Consensus
Paul Ryan - 3rd stage Consensus
Hitler - 3rd stage Consensus transitioning into 1st stage Individuated
Princes Dianna - cusp 3rd stage Consensus and 1st stage Individuated



INDIVIDUATED

Yoko Ono - cusp 2nd and 3rd stage Individuated
Syd Barrett - entering 3rd stage Individuated by a hair
Julian Assange - 3rd stage Individuated
Virginia Woolf - 3rd stage Individuated
Oscar Wilde - 3rd stage Individuated
Rachel Maddow - 3rd stage Individuated
Mark Zuckerberg - 3rd stage Individuated
Michael Jackson - 3rd stage Individuated
Nelson Mandela - 3rd stage Individuated
Beatles (except John Lennon) - 3rd stage Individuated
Krishnamurti - 3rd stage Individuated
Ghandi - 3rd stage Individuated
Oprah - 3rd stage Individuated
Carl Yung - 3rd stage Individuated
Anne Frank - cusp 3rd Individuated and 1st Spiritual
President Obama - cusp 3rd Individuated and 1st Spiritual


SPIRITUAL

Mother Teresa - 1st stage Spiritual
John Lennon - 1st stage Spiritual
Leonard Cohen - 1st stage Spiritual
Elizabeth Clare Prophet - 2nd stage Spiritual
Osho Rajneesh - 2nd stage Spiritual
David Koresh (Waco) - 2nd stage Spiritual
Elijah Muhammad - 2nd stage Spiritual
Adi Da (Da Free John) - 2nd stage Spiritual
JZ Knight (Ramtha) - 2nd stage Spiritual
Grigori Rasputin - 2nd stage Spiritual
Edgar Cayce - 3rd stage Spiritual
Ramana Maharshi - 3rd stage Spirtual
Therese Neumann - 3rd stage Spiritual
Yogananda - 3rd stage Spiritual
Joan of Arc - 3rd stage Spiritual
Jesus Christ - 3rd stage Spiritual

Hello Jen, all volunteers, and EA members:


EVOLUTIONARY STAGE


We've let the above in-depth discussion about Jen's personal evolutionary stage take place so that everyone in this group can learn HOW to determine the evolutionary stage of the Soul in an on-line environment.  

Thank you to all EA astrologers at all levels who have shared really helpful information.  We've heard from volunteers Lila and Eos.  And Upasika and Linda have looked at volunteer Jen's sharings in-depth.


As pointed out to me by Skywalker, there is of course a correct procedure in determining evolutionary stage:

-  observation and correlation

-  interaction with the client

-  asking certain questions such as "Why are you here?"

-  and in Jen's case, looking at the birth chart to see how she was living out certain dynamics

-  seeing Jen's strong Pisces signature in the birth chart

-  bio

-  photo


When we open Jen's thread very soon, we will re-cap and re-quote the process by which we are coming to understand Jen's evolutionary condition.


Please check out the next post for quotes from the EA Glossary.


Cheers,

Linda

QUOTES FROM THE EA GLOSSARY


EVOLUTIONARY STAGES


Thank you to the wonderful "foundational" EA astrologers for sharing the following:


Accurate Determination of Evolutionary Stages


It is extremely important to understand no astrologer can determine which evolutionary condition exists for any Soul by simply looking at the birth chart alone. The astrologer must observe and interact with the client in order for this determination to be made. A good way to do this is in a counseling situation where a client has come to the astrologer, is to simply ask the client why they are there, and what questions do they have. Generally, the very nature of the questions that the client has will clue the astrologer as to what evolutionary condition exists for that client. For example, if one client asks, "When can I expect enlightenment," and another asks, "When will I have my new BMW," there clearly is an observed difference reflecting the level of evolutionary progression of the Soul. (Rad)


To accurately determine the evolutionary stage for any Soul one has to understand the totality of that Soul's reality. To isolate upon one dynamic, as in a desire to be "˜seen,' will not, of itself be an indicator as to what the evolutionary stage is for any Soul. It is essential to know what any Soul's inner orientation to external reality is, what the bottom line within them is about as a core orientation to reality, to really know what the evolutionary stage is. The descriptions of the Four Evolutionary Stages, and their sub-stages, reflect what the core orientations to reality are for any possible Soul. The desire to be "˜seen,' in and of itself, comes from the Leo archetype. And, by the way, by the time the Soul evolves to the beginning of the 3rd stage Spiritual there will no longer be any desire to be "˜seen' from an egocentric point of view. Quite the opposite: an increasing desire to be unseen. (Rad)


The evolutionary stage is the evolutionary stage of the Soul, not of the personality. Without seeing the nature of the Soul you have no way to know the cause of the external phenomena you observe. You have to grasp the nature of the Soul. The externals, the personality, are EXPRESSIONS of the Soul. Each Soul will have its own reasons for having some external expression - unique to each Soul based on its past and the desire nature of that Soul. Without seeing the "why" behind the expression, you can't draw conclusions based on just the expression. In the chart we get clues to the nature of the Soul from the location of Pluto by house and sign, the location of Pluto's South Node by house and sign, the aspects Pluto is making to other planets by house and sign. Some of this may seem intangible. From my experience learning these things, if you keep working with it, gradually an inner light will turn on, an "aha" occurs, and you start grasping it from the inside out. (Steve)


The trick of learning the stages is to grasp the underlying psychological archetypes associated with a stage. Then you can begin to recognize that archetype playing out in various forms. 1st stage Individuated - are different, yet afraid to be different - pretend to be normal, are not. 2nd stage Individuated - look very different, have deep anger about the way things are, underneath, fear being pulled back into Consensus. 3rd stage Individuated - individuality fully formed - no way they can be pulled back to Consensus. They seek to reform, improve, transform the world for the better. 1st stage Spiritual - feel very small, desire to serve, spirituality of a devotional nature. (Steve)


When trying to discern the stage someone is in when they SEEM to be split between two stages. It could be said for someone in 3rd stage Individuated moving toward, or on the cusp of 1st stage Spiritual: they HAVE to do the same kinds of things the 1st stage Spiritual person would do in order to MOVE to that stage. (Adina)


I was hanging on to the last vestiges of "but surely if there is this or that signature it must have some reflection, even if indicating in the smallest of ways, that the person might be in evolutionary stage "˜X'" etc. This was because I was new to EA, and still subconsciously coming from the traditional western astrology paradigm. Over the last while I've been forced to evaluate the evolutionary stage and sub-stage of several people I'm karmically connected with, in order to clarify my ongoing relationship to/with them. This has taken a lot of internal thought and contemplation. And it's made it totally clear to me, yet again, how the evolutionary stage of a person and their chart are totally completely different things. I have always operated on that basis since, but it's absolutely as clear as day now - it's become something I know now as my own experience at a core level. (Upasika)


What I have learned (and continue to learn) is EA works because it is aligned with, is a symbolic expression of, how life actually works. Beyond theory and intellectual constructs. Just, bottom line, how it actually is. So, as we increasingly see that, we see the principles EA expresses playing out in our lives. No astrology is required - they are simply there. To me one of the main gifts EA offers is it lets us objectify what we are experiencing - to step back from our subjective perspective and simply see what is going on without personal emotional investment. The way I look at it, a natal chart is a blueprint, a script. That script can be fleshed out in many ways - each Soul is going to play it out differently, based on its past, its desire nature, and its evolutionary station. So a 1st stage Consensus and a 1st stage Spiritual Soul could be born at the same moment. They have entirely different reasons for picking that moment and they are going to play that script out quite differently. And yet, there will be similarities. Jeffrey quoting Sri Yukteswar in the beginning of Pluto Vol. 1 - "A child is born on that day and at that hour when the celestial rays are in mathematical harmony with his individual karma." A friend of mine with interest in astrology has recently met someone on-line she doesn't know, who was born two minutes after her, same day and year, 700 miles apart in the US. They are having quite a time comparing notes. They are finding it's as I said above - they have uncanny similarities, yet they each have fleshed that script out in their own unique and different, yet similar, ways. (Steve)