Old EA Message Board

Hi,
Well thanks to all of you that contributed input in the ways that you have to our practice chart starting with the 8th House Pluto. All of you had good things to contribute.
So to try to keep it simple for now let's remember that the 8th House, for any of  us, correlates in any given life to the EXISTING STATE OF OUR EVOLUTION. And based on that awareness of what we currently are, were we have come too, it simultaneously creates the awareness of what we need in order to continue in our personal evolution. The needs correlating to this evolution thus manifest as desires, and as we act upon those desires we then continue to evolve. This is why the 8th House, Scorpio, and Pluto itself correlate to 'symbols' that we form relationships too in such a way that the very fact of forming such relationships to whatever symbols generates as osmosis of those symbols into us. By osmosing the nature of those symbols into our existing state of evolution or reality we then evolve beyond the existing limits of that evolution or reality.
  When we see in a birth chart that a person has an 8th House Pluto this will always correlate to a Soul who has desired to form relationships with whatever symbols that have represented something that it felt that it needed that it currently did not have. It has, as a result, projected to high degree of power into those symbols that then correlates to the Soul's sense of emotional and psychological security. Because of this there then exists a high degree of resistance from moving beyond those symbols in order to continue to evolve. This then can become the basis of stagnation. It can become the basis of compulsions and obsessions. It can become the basis of manipulation and control. It can become the basis of emotional and psychological dependencies that prevent further evolution of the Soul.
  So, right now, for the sake of trying to keep this simple at first let's put Pluto in the 8th House and now link it to say a South Node in the 3rd House. Let's remember that the South Node will correlate to the types of egocentric structures that the Soul has created in order to actualize the desires within it. This specific orientation, i.e. the South Node in the 3rd House, will then correlate to the nature of the symbols that the 8th House Pluto is focused upon in order to actualize itself relative to it's ongoing evolution.
  So, let's have a go at it !
 
 
 

Hi all....

I'd think a 3rd house South Node would alert us to unresolved karmic issues with brothers and sisters and issues from our early childhood.  Communication in all forms would be significant for us and maybe karmic issues with having used many 3rd house experiences in a sort of "street smarts" way..... either for good or not so good.  Maybe there would be an ease with words, a bit like a con artist or the opposite.... the gift of the writer and public speaker.  With the Gemini influence of the 3rd, there would be a past that relates to high "curiosity" levels (needing to know what's going on, not missing anything).  It could also indicate a possible reluctance to go into things deeply, meaning... a tendency to the "Peter Pan syndrome".... never really growing up at a deeper level or taking on deeper roles of adulthood.

Coupled with Pluto in the 8th... it would tell us something was under pressure to face the limits of the 3rd house South Node .... I'd think, this could be really tricky with the 8th house forces of sex, death, meditation, magic, rituals, money, the occult , our power status, and taboo subjects being used to transcend the South Node.  Few of those 8th house Pluto urges would be "superficial" but they would defo lead to a deeper education of the understanding of the "meaning" of any Gemini flavored 3rd house issue.  Pluto in the 8th would be the catalyst for the positive spurring toward a deeper quest of "meaning" so our evolution can grow rather than stagnate. 

With Pluto in the 8th I'd also think... 3rd house South Node would learn of those limits through contact with others.  Perhaps there would be some sort of relationship compulsiveness in 3rd/8th house matters.  Perhaps both internal and outer conflicts between the personal boundaries of the South Node ego and an 8th house Pluto that draws in people/situations and issues of anything but "lighter Gemini" vibes.  There would be an inability to extract the ego from the more superficial with Pluto drawing them into ever deeper "relationship" situations that relate back to brothers. sisters, childhood, communication and our environment and how to effectively use our intelligence to think and share in order to get beyond the South Node limitations. 

it has incarnated into experiences in which it's ability to perceive and interact with it's environment has provided the soul with adequate information and awareness as to how to proceed further- either to make sure the status quo of security is maintained, or to connect the dots and literally perceive how it has been limiting it's own growth.

this may have manifested through all kinds of diversity- conversation, schooling, education, syblings, knowing their surroundings. the intent has been to learn and gradually understand more about the interconnectedness of phenomona or maybe of just particular phenomona.

this soul will be very interested in asking questions. the questions have always been triggers to greater soul awareness. it's evolutionary state will determine the kinds of questions that it has asked. however, in all cases evolution has been limited via any unwillingness to question it's shallow assumptions/ over identification with linear thinking.

Cool, great input! The Pluto in the 8th house/3rd house south node will be actualzing the need for emotional/psychological penetration and transmutaion through the type of intellectual information that is collected from the external enviornment. The limiations would then be rationalizing (3rd house south Node the resistance (8th house Pluto) towards evolving past the pre-existing psycological orientation to life in general. Yes, the intellect has become limitated in some manner, and the individual could potentially use the intellect/mental capacities to penetarte to the bottom line of this core dynamic in order to evolve past it. On the positive side the individual could have a very adapt ability to communicate powerful/transformative knowledge to others in order to promote growth within the other individual.
lets keep going!
   

With Pluto in Scorpio and South Node in Gemini I have seen the world through, become powerful from, and then become stagnant, through an intense relationship with the world of ideas.  I cling to my view of the world comprised of a confetti of ideas that I have constructed.  I have used my left brain to take apart the philosophical and belief systems of the very sources of power I have desired so deeply to merge with, and in doing I have been left without a sense of  meaning. 

I might be a writer whose second book was not picked up by the publisher.
I might be an invited speaker whose ideas are criticized by the members of an innovative, but "fringe" organization I have joined.
I might be a spiritual aspirant who has read all the books, talked with gurus, joined a mystical organization and earned its degrees, yet not found meaning.

I put this together before reading any of the others:

The existing state of evolution is signified by Pluto in the 8th.  The main approach taken to achieve the desires of the 8th house Pluto are demonstrated by the South Node in Gemini.  This individual, desiring to merge with powerful symbols and sources in order to become more powerful (and symbolizing the desire to return to Source) would:

• be involved in the collection of a vast array of in-depth facts, data and information to serve the original soul purpose (thus emphasising curiosity, the question "why," and the desire "to know")
• be operating on a normal day to day level of the mind - like on automatic pilot - the collection would skim the surface extracting the powerful bits that would serve the original soul intention
• have the ability to merge with and absorb the power from the array of information collected
• use compelling communication and intellectual skills (eg cleverness, wit, perspicacity, versatility, logic, analysis) to merge with powerful people in his day to day environment thus transforming himself and others
• by the collection of the powerful information, enhance the 8th house purpose (eg healing, transformation techniques)
• be forced, once mentality implodes, to redefine his search and find NEW information
  
• be karmically connected with siblings, relatives and neighbours (especially the powerful ones) but the relationship with them may not be especially conscious

I don't understand duality very well and how it would apply in this case.

Hi Everyone,

This really great!   
Let me add a few thoughts without reading through all previous posts...sorry if I repeat anything that has been said before.

One of the underlying characteristics of an 8th house pluto (and scorpio in general) is the direct experience of power -and powerlessness. It is a very intense archetype -correlating to the core phenomena of desire itself which is the fuel of evolution, but we need to remember that evolution is the result and not necessarily the desire......consciously desiring evolution comes into the picture only when the soul is further up in the evolutionary states.

With this example we can not know the evolutionary level of the soul in question, so what we can safely say is that there is a soul who have desired to merge with some powerful (8th house) ideas (3rd house) and in some ways (depending on the signs falling on the 8th and 3rd) directly experienced power and powerlessness as a result of those mergings. Thus, the soul has experienced power and powerlessness within its immediate environment in relation to the people with whom it interacted on a daily basis. 

The ideas/symbols it merged with were mostly left brain oriented in essence, logical, linear ideas - however these ideas  may have been extremely diverse (the degree will again depend on the sign the 3rd house would fall in) and the soul developed an ability to look at things at least intellectually from both sides. There is a more or less adaptive mental approach (again this could vary via the signs) and an inner psychology to use this in a way that consciously or unconsciously the soul will defend its own point of view in a way as to use its mental ability to find the weakest link in any opposing argument/opinion and tear it down; i.e. undermining it. There is a certain (depending on evolutionary state) degree of psychological knowledge which is used for better or worst ...depending on many things which we can't say from this two symbols yet. Only the whole chart can tell the particulars...what's for sure is the fact that relative to any evolutionary state, the soul has developed some level of psychological knowledge relative to it's own consciousness and did use this knowledge in some ways. What's sure is that it has used this knowledge in order to "be more powerful" than it was before.

With the 3rd house s.node the soul valued symbols that in some ways contribute to the notion of "knowledge" and communication as such was one of the key tool to establish and maintain its whatever "power" - which the soul identified with as its underlying security. Communication here can be direct or indirect i.e. verbal or written etc. For example it could have been a writer who were able to influence many - and yet experienced a halt of this powerful position in some sort of ways which then forced the soul to transform its ideas.

But of course that's just one possible scenario...

One of the important lessons of the 8th house is the proper use of power, including or rather starting with personal power. This lesson -as everything else - can be learnt only via polarity; i.e. embracing the lesson of what is the improper use of power. This is true in general and in particular terms.
8th house/scorpio also correlates to the deepest trust, the deepest intimate union with another, and of course sexuality as the means of a personal intimate merging with another. With an 8th house pluto these areas are also important aspects of the overall evolutionary lesson.

With the 3rd house s.node in the past this area of life too has been defined at least to some degree via means of intellectual, left brain oriented approaches. The degree of this, of course will depend on other factors of the chart (like where venus and mars is etc. etc.) But the above still will be true to one degree or another.

The other thing about 8th house/scorpio is that the soul perceives sources of power outside of itself. The desire to empower itself has taken place via merging with power sources outside of itself....with the 3rd house s.node we can safely say that the sources of power have been at least somewhat diverse. It could have been coming from different people and their different ideas that the soul osmosed in and then used it on its own ways for its own purposes. Again, for better or worst...

Hope this would help to induce some thoughts to further the picture

Blessings,

Lia

"The other thing about 8the house/Scorpio is that the soul perceives sources of power outside of itself. The desire to empower itself has taken place via merging with power sources outside of itself..."

Hi Lia,

when you say the 8the house pluto/scorpio perceives power outside itself are you also meaning that in terms of evolutionary stages?  What stage do you think that the 8th house pluto/scorpio moves from seeing power outside to power within?

thanks,

pam

Hi Pam,

Arcetypically speaking, the 8th house/scorpio archetype fundamentally correlates to the merging, uniting, osmosing with something some sort of power symbol outside of the self. In all evolutionary states.....of course at the very end of the evolutionary journey the ultimate source of power "outside" the self will become the Source itself...but there is a long way to get there.

So archetypically speaking Scorpio in itself is not about the power from within...it is about the evolutionary force that pushes the soul to realise that it NEEDS (desires) something MORE....something that it doesn't already have. So this in itself points outside of the self, outside of what it already is or already has within. The polarity, taurus, 2nd house correlates to the self while scoprio points outside of the self to something more - something that can be aquired only via overcoming the existing state's limitation. For whatever that state may be it always has some sort of limitation. In other words there is ALWAYS something more to life, something more to evolutin and the 8th house scorpio is the archetype that makes the soul consciously or unconsciously realise that and this is the force that pushes the soul forward.....again for better or worst.

The archetype is about the choices the soul makes inorder to fulfil that perceived need. Of course at the end the need/desire is to become more powerful within. But how it is done is not about utilising only the inner resources, the  inner power -for that is the limitation itself. I think it is very obvious that any level of evolution except the very last state when the soul merges (osmoses) with the Source itself, there is always "something more to it" i.e. the previous level of evolution always has limitation. To overcome that limitation the soul needs to (and inwardly forced to) look outside the previouis boundaries of its reality.

For example, is it not this scorpionic archetype that all of us have been atracted to EA and we are osmosing it, taking it in, in order to overcome the limitation of our previous state? Before we were attracted to EA before we started to osmose this kind of understanding there was some known or unknown limitation in our previous state/reality and we perceived it as something that we need. An outside source of power, that elusive "something more" that we DID NOT ALREADY HAVE.
As a symbol of power this "thing" was certainly outside of ourselves before we familiarised with it, and we all are in the process of empowering ourselves via progrerssively taking it in and making it "our own" in the process of osmosing it?
Is it not true that in return it simply metamorphosize our reality in all levels? And the limitation of our previous state sheds away and a totally new reality emerges.

Scorpio is progressively becoming aware of the forces of existence that are larger than itself. This process is what sheds the ego, for this archetype is the force via which the egocentric consciousness progressively becomes aware of the invisible forces that leads to the soul, and ultimately at the end of the road, this is what leads to the direct realisation and merging with the ultimate Force, the Source itself.

Hope this makes sense?

Blessings,

Lia

Hi Lia,

Thank you... Yes It makes perfect sense, Desire itself is is about merging with something.  I get that.  I think I am responding to the idea that you wrote about scorpio seeing power outside themselves, I think that is just a commplicated statement and so simple.   The desire to return to source is a desire and in one sense seeing  power outside.  Which I think is different than seeing "god" "goddess" outside one self... I think thats what Im trying to clarify.    I think I answered my own question....

thanks,

blessings,

pam

With pluto in the 8th and a south node in the 3rd, the soul has chosen past life ego structures that have had a natural curiosity intrinsic to them toward a diversity of subjects and experiences.  The extent of variety is tempered by virtue of the 8th focus, which brings depth to the 3rd house archetype's naturally lateral nature.  Curiosity itself will be driven by motive.  The ego may not always be conscious of the specific motive that is generating curiosity (evolutionary state will be a factor), but they will feel the influence of the motive making curiosities hypnotic.   The affect created is one wherein the individual feels compelled to follow such curiosities in order to find out where they lead and what new information they provide.  Along the way they will be driven by a need to know WHY the curiosity is so hypnotic...a sense of mystery will permeate the exploration...and they will attempt to answer that question by probing the subject/experience in a very concentrated way until the answer is experienced directly.  When the answer is finally penetrated, the hypnotic quality of the curiosity will diminish and a deep core awareness will emerge.  If the awareness presents a recognition of long-term value that will afford ongoing growth, a commitment will be made in the context of that experience or subject, and they will continue to study all of its components very deeply, learning all the ins and outs, all the related connections, the related "˜cause and effects', and extensive terminology that will allow a very deep communication of the knowledge gained in that study.  Experiences/subjects which do not provide recognition of long-term value will be left behind.  This reflects the 8th house lessons of making evolutionary choices of what to commit to, and what not to commit to, which is important because when we make a commitment to something, we are allowing a form of enmeshment to occur, which facilitates the cohesion of merging. If we commit ourselves to something that does not afford ongoing growth, we are in metaphorical terms, glueing ourselves to circumstances that will keep us standing in place and will produce progressive stagnation, which if sustained for too long, will then generate circumstances that have a cataclysmic effect of tearing that bond apart.  Torn bonds do not equal culmination of bonds.  When we tear bonds (any form) in this way, specific karma is generated that alters the course of our future by requiring us to go back at some point in time to confront/identify/resolve the casualties that occurred as a consequence of the forced separation.  This isn't to say all forced separations are 'bad', they simply implicate karma relative to what is left unresolved.  With respect to a 3rd house SN, this process will occur through experiencing a variety of circumstances that will share the same fundamental underlying issue, that will have the affect of triggering emotional dynamics rooted in the past.  There will be an intense temptation to try and reroute the emotional dynamics away from the emotional body and process them through intellectual channels instead.  Yet the natural function of the moon and its nodes is emotional, and thus these dynamics must ultimately be addressed on that level: in the emotional body.  The appearance of the circumstances that trigger these emotional dynamics will be different, but the core issue within them will be the same.  The lesson becomes one of exposing the core issue within the circumstance at hand, and addressing that specific issue fully to allow the necessary metamorphosis to occur.  Resistance to that lesson produces a pattern of continuing to abandon one circumstance for another, based on an assumption that the problem originates with the circumstance and not within the individual who is drawing the circumstance. 

Edit:  Upon reflection a question has occurred to me about whether I've overemphasized the role of the SN in my statements below and inadvertently morphed this into a 4th house pluto process rather than an 8th pluto process.  Rad and/or Deva, will you please supply some clarity on this?  Are these statements still on track given that we are only thus far considering pluto and its south node, or have I indeed deviated from the 8th house archetype and wandered into the 4th?  Sorry!..having a momentary incapacity for seeing the forest for the trees!

A 3rd house ego structure can be utilized by an 8th house soul by providing a context in which the soul can access a variety of past life identities, each reflecting their own core focus and specific emotional dynamics/imprinting associated with the focus.  A 3rd house ego structure comes to know itself through gathering a diversity of experiences, and through the nature of the circumstances that exploration occurs through.  The individual will relate their sense of identity on an ongoing basis though these diverse experiences, and particularly those to which a commitment has been made, by perceiving its self image as an extension of these experience/circumstances, creating a sense of being an embodiment of many different aspects and characteristics.  Being natural detectives (8th house pluto), those various aspects and characteristics associated with the sense of identity, will be intensely focused upon throughout life by the soul in order to arrive at the awareness of how each of these various parts are connecting at the same root in the core of oneself.  As these connections are made it will promote a natural assimilation of what may have previously been felt/seen/experienced as numerous unrelated parts, and allows one to grasp on an intuitive level a bigger picture of how these parts are integrated to reflect who they are in total.  8th house pluto/3rd house SN shows an intent to tap into and connect past life identities in order to arrive at this larger self-picture.  If a 3rd house ego structure is developed and defined through the collection of information and phenomenal experiences, and we have a SN reflecting these types of ego structures in the past, and an 8th house bottom line evolutionary intention of penetrating to the core of oneself, we can see how the hypnotic curiosities generated by the soul will lead the individual to the specific experiences and information that directly reflect and connect to these past life identities.  As the individual links one's current life experiences reflecting past life identities with the present self-image, a process occurs wherein the individual unconsciously (unless spiritually evloved) facilitates a deeper gathering/integration of the identities created over many lifetimes, in order to connect those identities and their related emotional dynamics and identify how those connections have come together to produce the soul's own inner workings.  The intent in identifying one's own inner workings is ultimately to discover how those inner workings can be applied more effectively to fulfill the core desires that will allow the soul to continue to evolve.

Stacie

HI Stacie,

Edit:  Upon reflection a question has occurred to me about whether I've overemphasized the role of the SN in my statements below and inadvertently morphed this into a 4th house pluto process rather than an 8th pluto process.  Rad and/or Deva, will you please supply some clarity on this?  Are these statements still on track given that we are only thus far considering pluto and its south node, or have I indeed deviated from the 8th house archetype and wandered into the 4th?  Sorry!..having a momentary incapacity for seeing the forest for the trees!

***************************************************************************

No, what you have written is excellent and does reflect the 8th House Pluto perfectly. The entire trinity of Cancer, Scorpio, Pisces, 4th, 8th, 12th in total correlate to the emotional body.

Rad

Oh good, thanks for helping me clear that up 

Stacie

Hi Stacie... beautifully written!   Rad... thanks for the all your input.  It's such a pleasure to come here. 

Quote from: cranberry on Apr 18, 2009, 04:06 AM
Hi Stacie... beautifully written!   Rad... thanks for the all your input.  It's such a pleasure to come here. 

HI Cranberry,
  Thanks for saying thanks and that it is such a pleasure for you to come here. Simple things like that mean so very much ... Thanks and God Bless ........... Rad