Old EA Message Board

Heather,

I hope you don't mind me popping in here to offer an answer.    This is a very good relevant question, and the brief answer is yes, Virgo is very much at play here in the first stage spiritual. Each of the archetypes contains its polarity withIN in, so in relation to that, the Virgo archeytpe would definitely be active in the 1st stage spiritual, overall ruled by Neptune. In addition, as JWG taught, the 1st stage spiritual person feels very small--like the proverbial grain of sand on the beach--in relation to its understanding of God. And since it feels so small, it feels inadequate to the task(s) to which it's called - again, the Virgo archetype. As one proceeds through that stage the Virgo (I'm not good enough, I'm not ready enough) consciousness gradually moves into the "I can't do it, but God can do it THRU me" stage, where it "cooperates" with the godhead within, and finally to the last part of the stage. It's at the last part of the 1st stage spiritual where the soul has typically now experienced the 1st level of samadhi, and therefore, has experienced SOME of the "truth".... but under current patriarchal conditioning, it can think it knows more than it does, thus catapulting it over into 2nd stage spiritual, which I think is co-ruled by Leo - being full of itself because it knows PART of the truth.

I'm not sure it's a separating of the chaff from the grain, unless you mean a shedding of skins of sort, as in thinking that it's separate from God/Source, or as the beginning of a conscious effort to begin eliminating separaring desires (Maybe that's what you were getting at?) in earnest. It's being AWARE of who and what we are and beginning to act on that accordingly, if that makes sense.

To me, there's a "learning curve" in relation to keeping one's mouth shut as Steve pointed out. And by learning curve, I mean that the soul at this level -- because it IS finally realizing SOME of the "truth" -- and the love and beauty OF that truth, wants to share it with others, but must learn to "discriminate" (Virgo) when that's appropriate and when not, as well as in what form. From my observations, many in 1st stage spiritual have prior lifetimes where they got into all kinds of trouble - including tortured - because they spoke the truth. (Although this could/would be true of anyone in the spiritual state).... but at this point, the soul is just learning when and with whom to share information.  Hope this helps. I'm sure Steve will be along to add to this.

Quote from: Steve on Mar 24, 2010, 04:53 PM

Quote
I am making this point somewhat strongly because if you follow it back to its root you will grasp a clearer perspective on the psychology of the individuated stage, especially third stage.  They really don't care what anyone else is doing, or what one is "supposed to do".  That is the whole point of 3rd stage indiv.  They will only do what is necessary for them to most effectively carry forth the mission or purpose.  If that includes getting a degree, they will do so.  Jeffrey said if it requires them to wear a tie and jacket they will do so, but they will see it as a costume, not as some definition of who they are or what they accept about societal "supposed to's".
Steve

Hi Steve,

I think I am finally beginning to grasp the nature of some of my own confusion with regard to this topic. It seems to have to do with a failure to grasp the inherent difference between 3rd stage individuated and 1st stage spiritual.  It is my understanding that 1st stage spiritual feels small and that this feeling of smallness is, if I have understood Adina correctly, because the person in this stage is beginning to understand itself in relation to God.  And with this new awareness, the Soul feels utterly small - like a grain of sand.  Is it correct to say that 3rd stage individuated does NOT feel any of this smallness? And then is the reason it does not feel this smallness because the Soul in this stage has not yet understood itself - grasped the magnitude of - its relation to the Divine?  So then can you say that there is a shift between 3rd individuated and 1st spiritual - the former not caring what anyone else (ie, its reference point is the rest of humanity) thinks of what it is doing while the latter shifts into beginning to care what GOD thinks of what it is doing (ie, its reference point is God, not people)? 

This question arises in part out of the statement that 1st spiritual, like 3rd individuated, knows it is different and isn't interested in conforming.  Yet 1st spiritual feels small while 3rd individuated does not necessarily feel this way.  I am also thinking about this from the perspective of skipped steps and hiding - the 1st spiritual that hides in consensus reality, not having a clue who s/he is and not understanding why no one is seeing him/her - the naivete of the child - assuming s/he will be loved for who s/he is.

I hope this makes sense.  It still feels pretty murky to me but I wanted to begin to try to voice the question/confusion.  I appreciate any answer you can give.

Peace,
Ellen

Hi there, I have some questions about the spiritual state:

1. Steve's remarks about neptunian "hiding" - can this manifest at any evolutionary level or is it exclusive to 1st spiritual?

2. Steve and Adina's comments about 1st spiritual keeping its mouth shut - is this some sort of necessity? or a growth process? (I am not quite sure how to express this question, hope I made myself clear).

3. finally, if the the 1st spiritual is learning that life isn't about what they want, but instead what they are here to do -- it is possible to see in the chart just what it is that there are here to do, large or small? it seems to me that "resistance" behaviour could be caused at least in part by simply not knowing what this task/process is (what it is there are here to do, etc.).

thanks for any insight, it is much appreciated.

Thanks so much Steve.  Your response really helped me understand more fully.

Blessings,
Wendy

Hi Dhyana

Quote from: Dhyana on Mar 27, 2010, 10:07 AM

YOU WROTE "Questions one and two can't be answered from the info you gave."
What more information can I give you so that the question can be answered? (in the context I just mentioned above)? BC that us what I am here for.

I did answer this in my original answer

QuoteQuestions one and two can't be answered from the info you gave. You have to look at the entire evolutionary signature (Pluto, south node, ruler, aspects being made)  and sense how that signature might have played out in the past and present lives.

Since in your case the 1st house Saturn/Chiron are conjunct in Pisces, opposing the Mars/Uranus/Pluto conjunction, squaring Venus in 10th, sesquiquad Moon/Jupiter, I'd say the answer about hiding being exaggerated is yes.  The past woundings/traumas as a result of who you are and what you know have been so intense, at your core, that you have not wanted to be seen.  This became adopted as a, 1st house, instinctual survival strategy.   Becoming aware of the tendency is a step towards changing the pattern.

Heather and Adina - I think Adina answered your questions, Heather, very well.  I don't have anything to add to what Adina said, at this point.
Steve

hi bluesky

I will share my thoughts on your questions, which are very good.  These are my thoughts, not necessarily authoritative EA answers.

Quote from: bluesky on Mar 27, 2010, 12:49 PM
1. Steve's remarks about neptunian "hiding" - can this manifest at any evolutionary level or is it exclusive to 1st spiritual?

Since the hiding is going to be about not revealing the person's awareness of spiritual realities that are well out of consensus norm, I'd say the hiding would be at its peak in 1st stage spiritual.  That is where the personal awareness of those realities is being deeply integrated and applied within the Soul.  As Adina said earlier, in that stage that Soul is feeling very small and humble, and has already experienced getting in trouble for revealing its actual reality.  This creating a tendency to not want to show what it knows, to stay out of trouble.

The hiding could start appearing in 3rd stage individuated as the Soul is becoming increasingly aware of the existence of other spiritual realities, prior to its beginning to adopt them as the center of its way of life. 

Second stage spiritual is not going to be hiding its awareness of spiritual reality, it is going to broadcast it all over the place.  Third stage spiritual has BECOME that spiritual reality, thus its not hiding it either.  Prior to 3rd stage individuated the awareness of spiritual realities has not yet begun developing, thus its not going to be hidden there either, since it doesn't yet exist.   The hiding associated with 1st stage indiv is not Neptunian hiding, more like Saturnian hiding, trying to pretend its part of consensus.

Quote2. Steve and Adina's comments about 1st spiritual keeping its mouth shut - is this some sort of necessity? or a growth process? (I am not quite sure how to express this question, hope I made myself clear).

Well, actually what I said about 1st stage spiritual keeping its mouth shut was about the 12th house/Pisces/Neptune hiding phenomenon, which I addressed in your 1st question.

Adina discussed something else altogether, a tendency to want to share the truth the Soul has discovered with others, which can be done somewhat indiscriminately, which can create repercussions.  She was describing the role of Virgo, the Pisces polarity, in that process, to learn to discriminate, when to speak about it and when to remain silent.

As far as keeping the mouth shut as necessity or a growth process, if the issue is indiscriminate talking, there is going to be a necessity to learn discrimination.  In the example of Neptunian hiding, its really the opposite.  The person will tend to remain silent when they should be speaking and showing up.  Thus its going to be a growth process to learn to speak and not hide away.

Quote3. finally, if the the 1st spiritual is learning that life isn't about what they want, but instead what they are here to do -- it is possible to see in the chart just what it is that there are here to do, large or small? it seems to me that "resistance" behaviour could be caused at least in part by simply not knowing what this task/process is (what it is there are here to do, etc.).

To me that is the whole point of the EA methodology - to interpret the evolutionary signature (Pluto, nodes, rulers, aspects they all make) to determine the life lessons that person is here to work on, to see the evolutionary directions the life is intended to move in.  The overall signature reveals the types of life lessons intended, the nodes and rulers show more specific ways those life lessons are intended to be applied, including the types of expressions (including vocations) that facilitate the life lessons unfolding.

Certainly not knowing what they are supposed to be doing could play a large part in resistance behavior.  Another example of the power of EA to reveal and objectify the Soul's intentions.

Hope these answers help.
Steve

Hi Ellen

Quote
I think I am finally beginning to grasp the nature of some of my own confusion with regard to this topic. It seems to have to do with a failure to grasp the inherent difference between 3rd stage individuated and 1st stage spiritual.  It is my understanding that 1st stage spiritual feels small and that this feeling of smallness is, if I have understood Adina correctly, because the person in this stage is beginning to understand itself in relation to God.  And with this new awareness, the Soul feels utterly small - like a grain of sand.  Is it correct to say that 3rd stage individuated does NOT feel any of this smallness? And then is the reason it does not feel this smallness because the Soul in this stage has not yet understood itself - grasped the magnitude of - its relation to the Divine? 

In some cases 3rd stage indiv can be a bit pumped up, ego wise, aware of its capacity for genius, forward thinking, etc.   The issue there would be that person confusing who and what is the source of their abilities - as if they came straight from their personal brilliance, rather than they are tapping into some universal source. 

By the time 1st stage spiritual is established, there is awareness the Soul is not the source of its own abilities, thus the sense of smallness.

Einstein was identified as 3rd stage indiv.  One of his quotes is "I want to hear God's thoughts.  All the rest is details".  You would think from that he was in the spiritual state.  The difference would be how deeply he had integrated the thoughts he heard into his total sense of self, the shift in the center of gravity from the world and the self, to that sense of the smallness of the individual we associate with 1st stage spiritual.

QuoteSo then can you say that there is a shift between 3rd individuated and 1st spiritual - the former not caring what anyone else (ie, its reference point is the rest of humanity) thinks of what it is doing while the latter shifts into beginning to care what GOD thinks of what it is doing (ie, its reference point is God, not people)? 

Well, I would say the sense of not caring what anyone else thinks of it exists throughout the spiritual state, in all 3 stages.

I wouldn't phrase it as "beginning to care what GOD thinks of what it is doing", because I don't think that is really the way that God/Goddess look at us.  They are not sitting there smiling or frowning at Souls based on a Soul's behaviors.   It is much more a matter of becoming aware of the natural intentions for all Souls and that specific Soul, and gradually aligning one's personal will with those intentions.  The reference point becomes more of knowing what one is intended to be doing, and committing to doing it.

QuoteThis question arises in part out of the statement that 1st spiritual, like 3rd individuated, knows it is different and isn't interested in conforming.  Yet 1st spiritual feels small while 3rd individuated does not necessarily feel this way.  I am also thinking about this from the perspective of skipped steps and hiding - the 1st spiritual that hides in consensus reality, not having a clue who s/he is and not understanding why no one is seeing him/her - the naivete of the child - assuming s/he will be loved for who s/he is.

I'm not clear why you feel that feeling small makes a difference in terms of not interested in conforming.  Its simply wanting to live from its natural nature, to drop conditioned programmings it has picked up that pull it away from its natural nature. 

You are not going to find 1st stage spiritual hiding in consensus reality.  1st stage spiritual is incapable of hiding in consensus reality.  It may not always LIKE that it is incapable of doing that hiding, none the less it can't.   It will also not feel it has no clue who it is - they do know who they are, that is the problem.  They may not understand how different from everyone else they are - that would relate to the feeling of not being seen.   They are typically going to have many experiences from early childhood on showing them they are NOT going to be loved for who they are.  That in fact almost no one will have any idea who they are.  Those experiences, while not fun, are designed by the Soul to throw that person back on them self, to be forced to explore their inner reality more deeply.

Steve

This is an excellent thread, helping me grow leaps and bounds while finally learning about these EA stages.

Thank you.

Hi Adina, I'm grateful you've responded. And thanks Steve and all for your continuation of this thread.

Quote'm not sure it's a separating of the chaff from the grain, unless you mean a shedding of skins of sort, as in thinking that it's separate from God/Source, or as the beginning of a conscious effort to begin eliminating separaring desires (Maybe that's what you were getting at?) in earnest. It's being AWARE of who and what we are and beginning to act on that accordingly, if that makes sense.

What this metaphor means to me is that the soul is as you said "earnestly" looking to sort through what will nourish its return to God (grain) rather than just the shell of what looks like it will nourish it (chaff) from the outside. It may apply here, I don't know. It seems to me the first stage is rather fraught with things like... is this or isn't this the way home ...  what will nourish me now that I need real (spiritual) food... and how do I relate to the rest of the world or do something useful with this knowing...

Also I wonder about this eliminating separating desires. I've never quite gotten this.  I thought the desire to separate was a natural state of the soul, to grow and evolve, in order to enrich creation, to be creation.
Why do I want to eliminate my urge to grow? I know I've not got this concept yet. Any help on this would be welcome, this feels important at this first stage spiritual.

QuoteFrom my observations, many in 1st stage spiritual have prior lifetimes where they got into all kinds of trouble - including tortured - because they spoke the truth. (Although this could/would be true of anyone in the spiritual state).... but at this point, the soul is just learning when and with whom to share information.  Hope this helps. I'm sure Steve will be along to add to this.

What function does the persecution and torture serve to the soul that is spiritualizing and returning to God?

In bud and gratitude,  Heather

Steve,

thanks for posting answers to my questions - I really appreciate the knowledge you and your fellow EA administrators share with us on this board.

Hi Steve,

Thanks for your answers.  I'll get this eventually....

Ellen

Hi All,

This post is by bluesky from the "opposition" thread.  I thought I'd post it here since it deals with the stages.  Anyone have any responses?  It is intriguing to me.

Ellen


Dhyana and Wendy,

my chart is loaded with oppositions - visually, it is a see-saw pattern with a t-square to nepture.  I often finding myself instinctively checking my own behaviour (is this person simply mirroring me?), imaging myself in someone else's shoes, etc. Very polarity!

Anyway, I have been contemplating the opposition along the following lines (with respect to evolutionary states):

consensus (may) = projection
individuated (may) = throwing off
spiritual (may) = integration of the polarities.

I realize this may be a simplistic view of the opposition aspect. I also realize that the chart needs to be considered as a whole, but that whole breaks down to parts...

Anyone who's got any ideas, insight - please feel free to jump in.

Hi again, Heather. I too am grateful for this thread; it's really a terrific learning and sharing experience for all. I've inserted my thoughts into your text.... I hope!  LOL

Quote from: mountainheather on Mar 27, 2010, 10:39 PM
Hi Adina, I'm grateful you've responded. And thanks Steve and all for your continuation of this thread.

Quote'm not sure it's a separating of the chaff from the grain, unless you mean a shedding of skins of sort, as in thinking that it's separate from God/Source, or as the beginning of a conscious effort to begin eliminating separaring desires (Maybe that's what you were getting at?) in earnest. It's being AWARE of who and what we are and beginning to act on that accordingly, if that makes sense.

What this metaphor means to me is that the soul is as you said "earnestly" looking to sort through what will nourish its return to God (grain) rather than just the shell of what looks like it will nourish it (chaff) from the outside. It may apply here, I don't know. It seems to me the first stage is rather fraught with things like... is this or isn't this the way home ...  what will nourish me now that I need real (spiritual) food... and how do I relate to the rest of the world or do something useful with this knowing...

Ah so, Heather, thank you for your explanation. I think we ARE talking about the same thing; i.e., eliminating separating desires. It's a focus on God and anything that will move us toward knowing and returning to God'dess as opposed to that next thing that keep us occupied IN the world, to paraphrase Jesus. To me, what you're describing with the questions of is this the way home, what will nourish me, etc., is more reflective of the end of 3rd stage individuated, wherein the soul has pieced together different bits of this and that philosophy and/or belief system, creating its own system, so to speak, but realizes that's not quite it and so begins to narrow down its search to the one of several already known ways/paths to God that it feels most aligned with. This also relates to the soul types; for example a soul whose essence is devotional will naturally align with a path of devotion, etc. And yet, I think the questioning of just what IS the way home also relates to the need for a guru or "true" spiritual teacher to help us navigate both the particular AND overall path we're on. Within that, then, comes what we "do" with the information, how we serve, which is, as you know, directed by God from within.

Also I wonder about this eliminating separating desires. I've never quite gotten this.  I thought the desire to separate was a natural state of the soul, to grow and evolve, in order to enrich creation, to be creation.

Heather, I don't think you're alone in thinking that the desire to separate is a natural state of the soul.. because that's what the patriarchy has taught for thousands of years now, i.e., that the soul separated ITSELF from God, when in actuality, God created and creates each soul as part of itself and yet SEPARATE from itself. (I hope that makes sense). This separation, to me, is different from the desire to grow and evolve. And this is only MY take on it "˜cause who the heck really fully knows what God intended in the first place (LOL)"¦. And that is that the desire to grow and evolve mirror God's own desire to evolve, which it does thru its creation - through expanding and contracting universes. And thus we too grow and evolve thru our creations, but what it boils down to is what those creations are and where they lead; i.e., away from or toward God/Source.

Why do I want to eliminate my urge to grow?

I don't think we do, Heather, but I don't think it's a matter of eliminating one's urge to grow, it's a matter of how and in what direction. At its simplest, the concept of separating desires reflects all those desires that are NOT the desire to return to that which created us. These, of course, are only limited by our imagination, so there are myriads of separating desires, while the desire to return is just that - one desire. According to all the world's "true religions" that IS the "goal" of life (all life ultimately, but spiritual life consciously), i.e.,TO know and return to the Source. Again, we don't really recognize that until we get to the cusp of 1st stage spiritual and beyond. And so what we chose from that point forward is whatever will propel that growth toward God/Source, because in the end, that's the ONLY thing that actually satisfies us. Or as the great one, Yogananda, put it, "Mankind is engaged in an eternal quest for that "˜something else' he hopes will bring him happiness, complete and unending. For those individual Souls who have sought and found God, the search is over. He is that something else." (Man's Eternal Quest)

I know I've not got this concept yet. Any help on this would be welcome, this feels important at this first stage spiritual.

From my observations, many in 1st stage spiritual have prior lifetimes where they got into all kinds of trouble - including tortured - because they spoke the truth. (Although this could/would be true of anyone in the spiritual state).... but at this point, the soul is just learning when and with whom to share information.  Hope this helps. I'm sure Steve will be along to add to this.

What function does the persecution and torture serve to the soul that is spiritualizing and returning to God?

I'm not exactly sure what you're asking here, Heather. My observation of this happening to people in prior lifetimes is just that, an observation of what happened when speaking out in a consensus reality, not that it serves any "function."

I hope this helps a little bit. Obviously, the topic is vast, and we could discuss it for hours on end. What a fascinating discusssion that would be, eh?   

Blessings,
Adina

In bud and gratitude,  Heather

Hi All,


I just wanted to add to something Ellen asked  



I think I am finally beginning to grasp the nature of some of my own confusion with regard to this topic. It seems to have to do with a failure to grasp the inherent difference between 3rd stage individuated and 1st stage spiritual.  It is my understanding that 1st stage spiritual feels small and that this feeling of smallness is, if I have understood Adina correctly, because the person in this stage is beginning to understand itself in relation to God.  And with this new awareness, the Soul feels utterly small - like a grain of sand.  Is it correct to say that 3rd stage individuated does NOT feel any of this smallness? And then is the reason it does not feel this smallness because the Soul in this stage has not yet understood itself - grasped the magnitude of - its relation to the Divine?  So then can you say that there is a shift between 3rd individuated and 1st spiritual - the former not caring what anyone else (ie, its reference point is the rest of humanity) thinks of what it is doing while the latter shifts into beginning to care what GOD thinks of what it is doing (ie, its reference point is God, not people)?  



Steve answered this pretty well, but my addition is from my observation and correlation is.. I am an artist and astrologer, some of my clients are 3rd stage individuated and so were some of my teachers in art school.... The thing I have observed over the years is that 3rd stage thinks it knows the universe, they really feel that they have hit the end and know what it is....  Its a Leo archetype...  1st stage spiritual knows they don't know....Transition between 3rd individuated and 1st the humbling process has already taken place so there are inklings of feeling small... The only smallness the 3rd indvuated feels is the deep knowing that the system does not support them.  But their ego blows right through that.    hope that helps....


pam