Old EA Message Board

Hi everyone
i realized b4 i proceed, it would help me to see a few examples of a well known people who are in the beginning of first stage individuated. got any?

Is bill clinton an example of one? or is he at the end of third consensus?

Gosh, good question, Ari. I know that years ago, when Clinton was going thru the Monica Lewinsky scandal, Wolf said he (as well as Hillary) was 3rd stage consensus on the CUSP of 1st stage individuated. I can't think of anything that would push him over INto 1st individuated yet, but maybe Rad, Deva, or someone else knows of something.

Hi Ari, and hello everyone,

I think it's hard to find famous people who are 1st stage Individuated because the nature of that condition is to be separating the self/Soul from the pack, from whence the famous people come. My Gen-X identity is showing full-on with this post, but I think two good examples of 1st stage Individuated, from my own point of view, and for whatever it's worth (?), are: Cyndi Lauper (who became famous FOR her "weirdness," and then ducked out of the spotlight and did non-mainstream stuff when her management wanted her to do consensus pop songs and stay famous), and Rivers Cuomo, singer/songwriter of the "alternative" rock band Weezer. Born in an ashram, a meditation teacher, and a generally eccentric guy, he still very much cares if his records sell, still needs the validation of the masses -- he openly admits to wanting #1 records.

To me, these people are good examples of 1st stage Individuated because they had (or still have, to some extent) mainstream success, but still have a lifestyle away from the spotlight that is very unique to them.

I hope you don't mind me chipping in my one and one half cents on this one! 

Love and blessings to you,
Lesley

Great question-Ari. If memory serves a good example of somebody in the 1st stage individuated state is Carl Jung. His approuch, or understanding, of psychology is based upon the individuation process in general, and that every human being has their own inherant individuality that must be expressed and actualized.  From what I understand of his work, he understood how to work with the individual nature of the person, and supported the need for personal individuation in the context of liberating from traditional, or conventional, ways of being in general.
Deva   

Hi Deva,

May I ask a question about Carl Jung's evolutionary stage? My understanding, such as it is, has always been that to have such a lasting and deep impact on the consensus, as Jung has had, and to bring a new paradigm to an old one so as to forever change the consensus' view of that original paradigm and evolve the paradigm itself forward, a Soul would be at around the 3rd stage Individuated evolutionary condition. He also wrote a lot about God, I believe, and had a cosmology of his own that informed his work...

I always thought of him as 3rd stage Individuated because he had such a firm grasp on the individuation process, it would seem that a Soul would need to be at 3rd stage Individuated to be able to understand and explain the condition, and all the varying degrees within it, so well. But I am just asking here...please know that I don't mean to argue the point at all. 

Love and blessings to all,
Lesley

Hi Lesley,
I would agree with you about Jung and being in the 3rd Stage individuated.

Rad

Hi Rad,

Thank you very much for your kind reply. Again I am so grateful for the ability to share thoughts and ideas on this board...in our little blessed community here.

Love and blessings to you,
Lesley

EA Assignment: Pluto 7th; South Node 6th w/ruler 10th; North Node 12th w/ruler 2nd; early individuated. Revision #1

   Coming into this lifetime, this soul has been learning a great deal through the experience of relationships.  In their past, they have felt most secure having people in their life they feel connected to and share experiences with.  This soul will have in the past and this lifetime naturally gravitate toward a role of serving in relationships.
          S/he has achieved a position in society before and has natural ability to work out in the world.  This signature suggests that the place in society was the way that allowed her/him to be of service to others.  Perhaps a career as a councelor, therapist, nutritionist, or one who teaches a life management.  Even positions in society of food service, body work(ex: massage or nurse) may have been the vehicle in which this soul was helping those around them.  Coming out of consensus reality paradigms, it is true that the past position was a "job" that exists in the consensus reality-so not a "wu-wu healer" or something.  A service occupation.  Yet, with just coming out of consensus evolutionary stage, we'd expect that they had achieved a high status role in society and was able to give to partner(s) the comforts of having all their external securities met thru this position(job).
    
   This experience of serving others, pleasing others, meeting others needs is so natural to them, that even in their close partnership/marriages, they would naturally gravitate to a role of "taking care" of the other.  They would always carry in their mind a list of all the chores and responsibilities that they saw as most important and would always be on task.  Driven to succeed in this way, always taking care of this and that, weather out in the world or at home, this person would repeatedly sacrifice their own time to continue to "do the stuff that needed to get done"-hence that ever so famous "list"

   With a 7th house pluto & sn 6th, there is a good chance that they ended up in relationships where they have attracted others that are needy.  They may take a natural role of "the one who wears the pants".  They would naturally feel a fulfillment as they are able to meet the other's needs. 

   We can expect that what has propelled this soul out of the late consensus stage into the early individuated stage was a crisis in the experiences of relationship.  Based on the south node in the 6th with the ruler in the 10th, we could expect to have seen the ways in which they served others was coming from a late consensus perspective in the past-specifically by providing others the service of material comforts and security.(ruler s.n. 10th)  At some point in relationship, the crisis would have arisen where this individual was faced with the reality that they were not fulfilling themselves at a soul level which was reflected back to them as their partner(s) were not being fulfilled by his/her efforts to serve from a consensus perspective-as opposed to serving with an understanding of their needs as an individual.
   This person in the past and this life carried with them a strong socially assimilated "code of conduct" which resulted in their own judgements-what is right and wrong behavior-in this case with an emphasis on behavior in relationships(pluto 7).  With the s.n. in the 6th, we except to see this person constantly analyzing their own actions-specific to how well they are serving the needs of others/partner(s) in relationships.  This pattern in their past lives resulted in a deep sense of what they perceived as their own failures/faults/shortcomings/imperfections in relationships.  Hence, they carry with them into this life a deep, probably unconscious, guilt of these past "mistakes".
   The operating of these unconscious guilt forces deep within are existing in the conscious mind in this life seen thru persistent desire to serve in relationships.  Always taking the service role, they will consciously judge their ability to meet their partner/other(s) needs...or not. 
   When they are in this state of mental self analysis and see the cases of not meeting partner/other(s) needs, it results in a form of a crisis.  In this type of crisis, there are three potential outcomes we'd expect to see.
First, if this criticism is all self focused and they may see themselves as "not good enough" and unworthy.  This lose of confidence in their self results in their own inability to receive in relationships and a pattern of procrastination-where they would be coming up with all the reasons why they are not ready for this thing, unworthy for this, etc.
The end result in this response to crisis thru relationship results in more self doubt, self criticism, self failure, self judgement---more guilt---->which results in a repeat of this cycle as this person will again and again be propelled out of need to atone for this guilt through serving others.
Second, we may see this criticism externalized.  With the sn ruler 10th, we would expect to see a pattern of their own sense of right and wrong resulting in judgement of others(natural square 10 to 7).  In this case, they will eventually drive off the other with all their projected judgements-creating in partner/other that same feeling that they are not ever able to live up to such high expectations.  The end result is aloneness.  This is a larger crisis for this person because it is thrown back in their face that they have failed to be a supportive/serving partner/friend.  The end result is an either or of carry more guilt or hopefully we'd see the pluto polarity point activated in this case.
Third, if this mental self analysis stays internal, it may result in self adjusting behaviors, self improvement, and self knowledge.  In this case, we could see the P.P.P being activated w/out a larger crises to catalyze the evolutionary momentum.

   Based on the actual nature of this square(planets, signs, and exact phase), we could get more specific on this.  Also, we'd look for the larger relationship crises to be during the fourth and eight harmonic contacts with the 7th/10th square via transit, progression and arcs-especially when it involves one of the planets in the squaring pair-pluto or the ruling planet of the south node. 

   Another type of crisis we see with this karmic signature is the "list" of responsibilities, in this case most likely external obligations(snr10), to be the thing that (a): Keeps this person unavailable from actually really sharing and hearing others in relationships. and (b):  Keeps this person from taking the time for themselves that they need.  It would be natural to see them first try to make time for other and then self if they are in deeper self denial pattern.  With a south node in 6th, we'd expect a natural self criticism to exist where it is "not perfect" behavior to be with their self-actually viewed as selfish and immature on some level.  On the flip side, they will see all their activities towards serving outside of themselves as the "perfect path".  This may not be conscious, but we will want to look for how hard it is to take this needed(from evolutionary perspective) time for them self.  And how hard it is to let go of this list of responsibilities (the ruler of the south node) and we'll see that they view their past approach to serving others as more perfect than the concept of service beginning with service to self.

   The positive side of all these crises is that they potentially reveal to them their own patterns and HOW they have actually failed to fulfill THEIR OWN capabilities.  In any crisis, we would ideally hope to see this person gain such self awareness and self insights and progress from that point.  This results in the self correction, self adjustment, and self improvement pattern. 
    One more negative response to crisis to watch for is the "web of mental and emotional paralysis" (thank your JWG).   The web is spun by the constant self criticisms.  In this web, we see the root of their immobilization.  The key out of this response is to simply keep talking, keep moving, keep walking, doing, living.  Even if it is just the dishes and cleaning the home, initiating this outer renewal can lead into the inner renewal needed.

   One more layer to this signature to keep in mind is the nature of their own judgements of right and wrong, which will have roots in a consensus paradigm(just left consensus w/sn ruler in the 10th).  So, watch for the casting off of this consensus defined right and wrong along with the search to establish their own version of this thru many different relationship experiences.  This creates a natural tension (again 7/10 square) as s/he will be seeking to have some functional form to judge and evaluate their own and others from.  First, we see this could result in confusion surrounding judgements and decision making.  Second, we see the tension of their openness to others point of view in relation to their own developing judgements.

    Eventually, at a potent evolutionary juncture in their life, they will find themselves alone.  Why did I end up alone? They have ended up alone to realize that the begining of transforming their service to others into perfect most first begin with self knowledge.  To learn that they alone are responsible for the fulfillment of their own needs.  They will need to learn that they are not actually fulfilling their own needs thru fulfilling others/partners needs.  They are going to need to pull away from the never ending "list" and let all the responsibilities of the world dissolve into the ethers.  In this quiet-tude, deep in their soul they will feel renewal and connection to something, something beyond words; certainly beyond descriptive understanding of the local consensus culture.  In this calm, in this nothingness and everything, all their worry, self doubt, guilt may dissipate like a fog clearing.  Guilt of how they acted in relationship, how they made others feel, etc... 
   They will be able to begin this "un-named" spiritual journey only by begining to fulfill their own needs.  They need to become more self reliant instead of projecting this expectation on relationships.  Once they become rooted into "who they are" and "what they are"-they can begin to take care of their self, not just others.  Seeing that the ruler of n.n. completes the grand trine to sn and it's ruler, we know that it will be of relative ease to apply all the skills that were directed to others and keeping the relationship going and apply these same skills to her/himself.  The challenge will be to actually BE with their self-the natural square of sn ruler 10th to p.p.p 1st suggests that it would be natural and comfortable to fall into being in their career/social position which will challenge them in making/allowing  the space and time to be with their self that they need.
   So, taking care of their own needs will lead them into getting in touch with the divine and thru that experience finding self. 
   Once in touch with their own self, they can know thyself and re-enter relationship in a balanced healthy way.
   Seeing that this soul is in the early individuated state, their sense of "supplying their own resources" will be moving beyond just paying their own bills, buying their own food, etc.  That will now have an emptiness to it which they will be casting aside.  They will more likely decide to focus on development of a particular skill of talent that they are drawn to.  This skill could easily be seen as some type of "zen"  or "monastic" activity-like book binding or knitting.  The process of practice of the skill, when they give them self the time, will be a gateway to experience the "divine".  At this stage of evolution, they may not exactly describe it as such, but they will know that in that "space" all the worry, doubt, self guilt often falls away and they exerience renewal.  They will attract others who have similar gravitation towards experience of life beyond the "ordinary" as defined by the local consensus culture.  In this way, they would be seen as "progressive" by the consensus culture which they are in, in service to, but no longer "of".

Thanks for taking time to read this and all feedback,
I feel that the evolutionary path signatures could still be developed.  How about the past karmic signatures developement?  Did i miss or misconstrew anything?  Thanks
Bradley

looks like i missed including the anger resulting from guilt. 

Hi, thanks Lesley and Rad for pointing out my error about Carl Jung (third stage individuated it is). I am still trying to think about a good example of person in the 1st stage individuated and will post if one comes to mind.
Thanks
Deva

Hi Bradley,

Thanks for taking time to read this and all feedback,
I feel that the evolutionary path signatures could still be developed.  How about the past karmic signatures developement?  Did i miss or misconstrew anything?  Thanks
Bradley

************************************************************************

Your analysis, via the specific avenue that you took it that focused on the Soul sacrificing it's own needs in order to take care of the needs of the partner relative to the conditioning come out of the just left behind Consensus State, the 'themes' if the types of work, the crisis's that result because of these dynamics, and how to begin to change this because of the intent to change the Soul's inner relationship to itself, were very well done.
But the analysis only dealt with one possible manifestation of these symbols of the 7th House Pluto, the S.Node in the 6th, it's planetary ruler in the 10th. For example it's possible in these symbols for the Soul to be an extreme masochist, or an extreme sadist. Your analysis did contain to some degree the masochistic archetype because of the Soul's need to sacrifice itself to others needs. If you were to develop these two other themes of extreme masochism, and extreme sadism, how would you then analyze and see the Soul in relationships then ? Not only within their intimate relationships , but the relationship to the world: 10th House ? If these are the way the symbols manifest in such Souls what types of parental environments would we expect the Soul to be born into ?
In terms of evolutionary development, N.Node in the 12th with it's ruler in the 2nd, focus on the archetypal theme of the Soul's INNER RELATIONSHIP TO ITSELF: 2nd house. And how that needs to totally change in the current life, and what that change it about. Correlate this then to the types of relationships formed based on this existing, and then changing inner relationship to him/herself. Within that what is going to constitute CORE MEANING for the individuals life, and the values that will correlate to that meaning, and how that correlates to the inner relationship. In turn how this correlates to how they integrate into the world. Within this how the very nature of the person's existing inner content within them self, from birth, has served as the basis of their judgment systems, and how that content will change equaling new judgment patterns that are based on what ? How is the Pluto polarity point going to correlate to all this ? 
Would you like to try to develop this more ? You are advancing well Bradley: your analysis is much fuller and deeper than ever before.

Rad

Rad,
Thanks again for taking time to review and give detailed feedback.
I realize that I have not yet really understood the meaning of sadist and masochist.
I really want to grasp all these elements and aspects of the signature.
Yes, I'll continue to develop this.  Thanks for the guidance,
b

Rad,
You said-"For example it's possible in these symbols for the Soul to be an extreme masochist, or an extreme sadist. "
Masochist: ONe who delights in being hurt or humiliated, esp. as a form of sexual perversion.
Sadist: One who derives pleasure from inflicting pain on another, especially as a form of sexual perversion.

As I am attempting to being to understand this, I am asking myself "how could a soul come into this life such that they are born an extreme sadist, extreme masochist, or both an extreme sadomasochist?"
My first conclusion, and the only one that really makes sense is that we are talking about a response of the soul to past incarnations, if it is sexual than we know that it is the soul's response to being sexually abused, manipulated, controlled, tortured, etc. 
Is this right?  Am I on the right track to beginning to grasp how this pattern begins?
Any support or feedback is greatly appreciated, thanks,
b

Hi Bradley,

Quote from: Bradley J on Nov 04, 2009, 08:21 PM
Rad,
You said-"For example it's possible in these symbols for the Soul to be an extreme masochist, or an extreme sadist. "
Masochist: ONe who delights in being hurt or humiliated, esp. as a form of sexual perversion.
Sadist: One who derives pleasure from inflicting pain on another, especially as a form of sexual perversion.

As I am attempting to being to understand this, I am asking myself "how could a soul come into this life such that they are born an extreme sadist, extreme masochist, or both an extreme sadomasochist?"
My first conclusion, and the only one that really makes sense is that we are talking about a response of the soul to past incarnations, if it is sexual than we know that it is the soul's response to being sexually abused, manipulated, controlled, tortured, etc. 
Is this right?  Am I on the right track to beginning to grasp how this pattern begins?
Any support or feedback is greatly appreciated, thanks,
b

First, Wolf wrote about this extensively in Pluto 2. So you may wish to read that. To answer your questions: The masochist is a Soul that has a core guilt that they need to 'atone' for. The atonement then creates the messages within the Soul that essentially say I deserve pain, punishment, and crisis in order to atone for that guilt. Once that is the operative dynamic in the Soul then a masochistic reality is created that has many, many applications through out their life and reality. And that can include sexual as well. The sadist has just as much guilt but, rather than desiring to atone for that guilt, they are angry because of that guilt and feel highly victimized as well. Combining that anger linked to guilt and feeling victimized within this then leads to the reality of being a sadist: wanting to get back at something, or someone. 
Let me know if this helps you Bradley.

Rad

Rad,
This is very helpful to begin this process of understanding.
I am a VERY slow reader and, even at almost a year now, am still digesting and have not fully read Pluto I.  I am hesitant to dive into Pluto II because of Jeffery Wolf Green makes it clear in the intro how to read the book, which you are probably well aware of.  But, if you were to suggest reading the relevant material in this case, I'd be open to going ahead to reach the deeper understanding here. 
Like Jeffery Wolf Green wrote at the start of Pluto I, paraphrased, it is not a quick read.  The material is really reprogramming the cookie cutter archetypes and has really blown me away in a good way. 
So, unless you suggest otherwise, I'll continue in the approach I've been with since January past.
Many thanks again,
b
Ohh, and I have started the dvd viewing, again relatively "slow" in this linear time rat race.