Hi,
I am wondering if there are new members, or old ones, who would like to do practice charts using the EA paradigm. We would begin very, very simply and progress from there just as we did in the older thread on practice charts. So if you are interested please let me know.
God Bless, Rad
I like the idea! :D
I would love too participate. THank you.
God'dess Bless,
Wendy
I will participate!
Heather
Count me in! ;D
I'd like to learn each step thoroughly before we move on to the next step.
Thank you Rad!
Hi to our new practice chart group,
Ok, so let's begin our journey practicing together the EA paradigm. At first we will keep as simple as possible and progressively build from there as the evolution within our group warrants. I do want to stress that I don't care right now if the analysis by any of you is 'right' or 'wrong'. The value is in the effort and if any of us keeps making a sincere and committed effort it will in fact lead learning how to apply this paradigm to any chart correctly.
It can also be very useful as we start our journey for you to refer to JWG'S Pluto one book: Pluto through the houses. So, for example, we can start a simple paradigm wherein we will put Pluto in the 11th house, S.Node in the 1st, N.Node in the 7th, and Pluto's polarity point would of course be the 5th house. Pluto in the 11th would correlate to the core evolutionary desires that have preceded the current life, and thus where the Soul has left off. The S.Node would correlate to the 'mode of operation', the egocentric structures that the Soul has created in order to actualize the desires inherent to the 11th House. In combination with the 11th House Pluto this is where the Soul has been, and where it comes into the current life at. The polarity point of Pluto of course will correlate to the core, bottom line, desires that correlate to the next step in the Souls evolution, and the N.Node will correlate to how this will be done: the evolving egocentric structure that the Soul is creating that allows for the polarity point to be actualized.
So it can be very useful to refer to the Pluto One book. You can read Pluto in the 11th. You can read Pluto in the first and replace the language of the Soul to the language of the egocentric structures created by the Soul to actualize it's intentions. You can read Pluto in the 5th House and adjust the language to reflect the next evolutionary step for the Soul, and you can read Pluto in the 7th and adjust the language to reflect the evolving egocentric structures created by the Soul to actualize it's core evolutionary intentions as symbolized in the polarity point of Pluto.
Again, the value is in the effort. So for those of you who want to do this now is the time to have a go at it.
God Bless, Rad
Wow... I am very interested in this!
Rad:
pluto in 11th, south node in the 1st and their polarities - this is what stumps me right off the bat.
there seems to be something impersonal about that pluto in the 11th and therefore the personalizing (balancing) aspect of the polarity point. but how does the north node in the 7th aid this? that sounds like more depersonalization.
new member here and thrilled to participate in this practice group!
i'll be hopping to the first configuration asap... have you established a deadline for posting responses?
thank you kindly,
green
Hi bluesky,
Quote from: bluesky on Nov 08, 2010, 09:56 AM
Rad:
pluto in 11th, south node in the 1st and their polarities - this is what stumps me right off the bat.
there seems to be something impersonal about that pluto in the 11th and therefore the personalizing (balancing) aspect of the polarity point. but how does the north node in the 7th aid this? that sounds like more depersonalization.
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I would suggest that you read again Pluto through the houses in JWG first Pluto book so that you can understand more fully the totality of the archetypes involved. The very nature of your question above demonstrates, to me, that you need to more fully understand the totality of the archetypes within the houses and signs. The totality of the 11th house or Aquarius is much fuller and deeper than just being 'impersonal'. God Bless, Rad
Hi begreen,
Welcome to our mb. There is no formal deadline.
God Bless, Rad
ok, I will take a stab at this to see if I'm even close to being on the right track:
the soul comes into this life with a feeling of being different and the need to individuate. This would relate directly to the south node in the 1st house, ie. their very identity, desires, and perhaps what they fear (themselves?). the need is to creatively actualize this (5th house polarity point) and this is done through the 7th house north node - contrast, comparison, and the need to be involved in relationships in a way which would allow them to do this - equality and interdependence.
I am totally open to any comments or criticisms you may have about my analysis, thanks!
Hi bluesky,
Quote from: bluesky on Nov 09, 2010, 09:18 AM
ok, I will take a stab at this to see if I'm even close to being on the right track:
the soul comes into this life with a feeling of being different and the need to individuate. This would relate directly to the south node in the 1st house, ie. their very identity, desires, and perhaps what they fear (themselves?). the need is to creatively actualize this (5th house polarity point) and this is done through the 7th house north node - contrast, comparison, and the need to be involved in relationships in a way which would allow them to do this - equality and interdependence.
I am totally open to any comments or criticisms you may have about my analysis, thanks!
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Thanks for making the effort that you have. Now ask yourself the questions: individuate from what and whom, and how does that implicate the N.Node in the 5th. What underlying emotional paradox is symbolized by the South Node being in the 1st, and the N.Node in the 7th. What is the basis of this paradox ? What is the resolution of it ? And how does the 5th House polarity of Pluto become actualized relative to the N.Node in the 7th ? **********************************************
God Bless, Rad
Hi Rad and thanks for the questions to allow me to work on this, here are my answers:
The 11th house Pluto need is to individuate from the mainstream and the peer group.
The 5th house Pluto polarity point is about taking charge of creatively actualizing what is unique and different about them without the approval of the peer group or mainstream.
The underlying emotional paradox of the 1st/7th house nodal axis is the need for independence versus the need for relationship.
The 5th house polarity point becomes actualized by the north node by attracting others of like mind who are also attempting to individuate and to actualize themselves, and who will not be threatened by the need of the 1st house south node person who is also attempting to do this.
Hi bluesky,
Great start, and good for you to keep making the effort relative to this paradigm. Let's keep developing it bluesky as below.
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Quote from: bluesky on Nov 09, 2010, 11:27 AM
Hi Rad and thanks for the questions to allow me to work on this, here are my answers:
The 11th house Pluto need is to individuate from the mainstream and the peer group.
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What is the underlying emotional dynamic within the 11th House Pluto person, a preexiting dynamic of lifetimes, that creates the evolutionary need to 'liberate' from that dynamic so that the Souls evolution can proceed ?
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The 5th house Pluto polarity point is about taking charge of creatively actualizing what is unique and different about them without the approval of the peer group or mainstream.
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Yes, and what would a 'liberated' psychological attitude be for this to occur ?
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The underlying emotional paradox of the 1st/7th house nodal axis is the need for independence versus the need for relationship.
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What is the need for independence about ? And sense we are now linking the S.Node in the 1st House to the 11th House Pluto try to put together how these two archetypes have interacted in prior lifetimes, leading to the current one. How does this S.Node affect the Souls orientation to the 11th House archetype ? And based on that orientation how does that then correlate and define the meaning of the N.Node in the 7th ?
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The 5th house polarity point becomes actualized by the north node by attracting others of like mind who are also attempting to individuate and to actualize themselves, and who will not be threatened by the need of the 1st house south node person who is also attempting to do this.
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True, but there many other orientations to relationship, new orientations symbolized by the 7th House N.Node, that this Soul is learning. What are they ? And how do they then become reflected back to this Soul by way of the relationships that it forms with others ?
God Bless, Rad
Hi Rad, it may take me a day or so to get back to you with my answers - I really have to think about your questions! thanks for the feedback, I appreciate it.
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I do have a question about the 7th house north node in relation to the polarity point - are you saying that the person's relationships will reflect whether or not they are actualizing their pluto polarity point?
thanks again.
Hi bluesky,
"I do have a question about the 7th house north node in relation to the polarity point - are you saying that the person's relationships will reflect whether or not they are actualizing their pluto polarity point?"
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Yes, the 'types' of relationships that will reflect this. It will come down to two distinct types. One will reflect the past of this Soul, it's existing dynamics, and the other will reflect the evolutionary future, intent, of this Soul as symbolized by the N.Node in the 7th relative to the 5th House polarity point of the Souls Pluto.
God Bless, Rad
Hi Rad, I have another question I would like to ask before I go back to working on the questions you posed.
Could it be that the person's response to the 11th house pluto was to become a "group of one" (since this could have been necessary)?
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I will try not ask more one-off questions after this, instead will try and roll them into my next post with the answers (could be a couple of days for that).
thank you!
Hi bluesky,
"Could it be that the person's response to the 11th house pluto was to become a "group of one" (since this could have been necessary)?"
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The Soul in prior life would feel independent and different in a group context yet, paradoxically, NEED to be within a group context in order to detach from it in order to discover it's own individuality.
God Bless, Rad
EA BEGIINNERS PRACTICE (#1)
DHYANA
Pluto in the 11th house
South Node in the 1st House
The core evolutionary desires that have proceeded this lifetime for the 11th house Pluto person was to break free from a confining self definition that has come into being by outdated identification with the types of societies, peer groups and friends in which they have been overly influenced by in the past and show up early on in this life. This individual will have a keen sensitivity to the group consciousness and societal expectations. This person/soul will have crystallized patterns of identification within this context.
They may often feel an obsessive (Pluto) need to somehow mold themselves to fit into a certain peer group that they feel secure with often at the expense of their own unique individuality.
Or there can be the very opposite way that this can play out -that would be that the person will strongly rebel against these societal expectations they were raised and/or peer groups, and therefore they may demonstrate an obsessive need to appear "different"--acting out a rebellion of sorts from the group expectations and norms --still they may be doing so at the expense of their own authentic unique individuality -- even if this way that it plays out is more subtle and "seems" or "appears" to be more individualisitc than the conforming way it may play out.
In which direction this will go can only be found by observing and correlating the other placements and aspects in this chart.
But in either scenario,what is present is the same issue -- the issue of SOCIETAL expectations, peer group influences/friend issues and expectations. These specific influences will be the underlying motivating dynamic of the life.
The 11th house Pluto soul has chosen to take birth in order to work out the karma around these themes and break free from the ties of identification around the group or herd influences specifically. These are the influences that are unconsciously motivating this individual and the lifetime will be about bringing consciousness to these unconscious motivations one way or another.
Based on the South Node placement in the First House as the mode of operation or the roles that this soul has played in the past in order to actualize or play out it's 11th House Pluto desires, it may make sense to say that this particular persons life will play out as the latter scenario mentioned --non conformist. (I think Iwould know better if this were actually the case of how this individual would play this out, if I knew the sign on the 1st house???) ...
...Anyways, to continue --This person will choose roles that make them believe they are different --pushing against societal and peer expectations and influences trying to claim an identity apart. (1st house SN). Playing roles in life that emphasize a conjured up identity that stands alone. (SN 1st house). This may very well be someone who actually does not know their own identity at all (identity crisis) but is believing in the identity they created/conjure up, by standing out and apart from "other"--standing apart from the group/society. (1st house SN). Believing in and behaving as if they are this identity is how they maintain their feelings of security.
Yet at the core, it is the 11th house influences that are actually forming this seeming identity in which they are clinging to for security, which is all motivated unconsciously by this 11th house Pluto.
The energy of the first house is one of an over-focus on ones own identity/self -- a strong imbalanced focus on them self in order to maintain a feeling of emotional security. A SN in the 1st is learning in this lifetime about the delicate balance of relating one to other as an equal ( NN in the 7th house). They are to initiate relationships with others to help loosen the strong-hold of lifetimes of relating narscisitically to their self image alone.
The initiation of relationships with others will be forced upon them each time they implode upon themselves and lose foothold of their prior constructed identity --the idenityt that is fabricated, based on that 11th house Pluto unconscious identifications with societal values etc.
This very implosion upon them self will more or less force them into relationship with others (H7) even in spite of them feeling as if in doing so they will loose their own (shaky) sense of identity.
Basically what I am trying to say is that the way this person/soul forms and crystallized their own identity (SN H 1) is soley based on the past influences of the societies and peer group expectations --Either in strongly conforming, and thus this conforming self has become their identity OR by rebelling against these influences and the identity is based on that rebelling --Both identities being mainly unconsciously motivated, thus being an inauthentic identity and therefore false --an over-focus on a false identity (SN 1st house). It will be in the arena of one to one connections with other people that this image they have of them self will be mirrored back to them -and they will find them self being challenged and/or supported, or put back into unconsciousness depending on who they choose to be with and/or how they choose to use each relationships (opening up and becoming more aware or closing/shutting down).
The next step in this souls evolution correlates to the Pluto Polarity Point in the 5th House. The way this evolutionary intention is to be actualized is by way ot their North Node in the 7th house. I would explain this by saying that the evolutionary intention of this soul is to find their AUTHENTIC identity --their very own unique and creative self (5th house PPP). This individual is meant to shine as a unique expression of life that is INHERENT in them, not molded out of a motivation to "not be" what I am expected to be -but to BE WHAT I AM (hope that made sense) --In other words, creative self actualization!
And as I already touched upon above --how this person will find this out is via the energy of the 7th house.(NN) -initiating and being in various one to one relationships with other people rather than just groups. By forming all kinds of different relationships this soul will start comparing and contrastin them self to others in order that they can find out who they really uniquely are and who they uniquely are not.
In the end, if this person chooses the path of evolution, they will be able to rejoin the society with a firm established sense of their authentic self that is not under the influence of either conforming or rebelling, but just contributing to the society from their own creative self actualized way of being.
Hi Dhyana,
Very good first effort on your part, and your EA reasoning was very solid. And, yes, in the end it is so necessary to understand the exact evolutionary state of the Soul to know exactly how the Soul will manifest within the totality of the archetypal spectrum of these archetypes. It is entirely possible, for example, that the Soul does indeed have a very authentic identity within itself in the context of the groups that it interacts with. This would begin to occur from the individuated evolutionary state and beyond. Yet, even then, the 11th House Pluto Soul would be 'dependent' on the group interaction so as to validate that authentic identity because of the group interaction. And that is exactly one of the core intentions of the 5th House Pluto: to fully actualize from within itself without the dependent need of the group to validate that inner actualization of the Soul.
There are many, many other dynamics to understand within this paradigm. But, so far, you have done a very good job.
God Bless, Rad
Hi Rad and all,
Here is my go at it, I don´t have the Pluto book at the moment but have read it quite extensively.
Thanks for the time and energy to go thru our work here, am looking forward to your feedback and corrections.
Practice chart 1
Pluto in the 11th, S.node in 1st
A Soul with Pluto in the 11th house will be defined at a core level by a desire to be different and detached from the majority of people in its social environment. The soul will have had prior lives in which it desired to rebel against social conventions of all kinds as a way of discovering that which it really is. The 11th house, Uranus and Aquarius correlate with the archetype of rebellion and liberation from the known as JWG teaches, with Pluto located there it indicates that this Soul has learned to find security in an objective and detached manner. By standing back and observing. This Soul will define and secure itself by detaching from an experience or situation and rejecting anything that it doesn't indentify with. In other words thru objective analysis it will rebel against that which tries to fit it into any type of mould of what it should or should not be. The Soul has been and is trying to discover its own unique individuality within the context of society. The Soul does this by defining what it is NOT.
This will be the type of individual that has difficulty fitting in a group as it has had past lives in which the intention was to detach from external impositions of any kind, including peer pressure from friends or those in their inner circle. Trying to find its own unique identity by rebelling against what society imposes, the individual has learnt to stand apart from the crowd and feel safe in its own objective perspective of reality. This can create a sense of alienation and loneliness since the person will always be in a state of rebellion, even against those close, who do not fit into that which the person believes to be right. The person will choose to relate to people who think in a similar fashion, people who share his/her views and social beliefs (or lack of) and will rebel against the old ways or, traditional values that in his/her mind are obsolete and do not serve the current times the person is living in.
The person will be interested in freedom and can be a natural humanitarian who idealizes a world where everyone has equal rights and is seen as a whole, unique individual. Instead of a number in a social machine that swallows individuality and human rights.
It is possible that the person has subconscious past life traumas of not being accepted by those considered friends and, by society in general, which can re-enforce the desire to keep emotional and psychological distance from almost everyone. Since Pluto in the 11th house finds security by rebelling against that which it is not or doesn't agree with, in turn others can also rebel against the 11th house Pluto person, forcing the individual back upon itself in order to analyze its own attitude towards society. Others can feel that this is someone who shakes their sense of security by challenging the way society is constructed. The 11th house Pluto individual will want to break free from old ways of being in society and this can create an inner frustration as the other people or the environment can reject the ideas put presented, because of their own need for stability and self consistency. This can lead to a destructive, rebellious attitude based on the need for change and evolution, fuelled by frustration of not being accepted for their way of thinking.
The Soul has its S.node in the first house which will correlate with a Soul that in the past created an egocentric identity that listens to no one and goes its own way no matter what. Relative to the 11th house Pluto the person would desire total freedom to pursue a lifestyle that reflected its true unique and individual nature. The person could have a sense of special destiny that nothing could get in the way of. Not even intimate relationships, as they can be time and energy consuming. Relationships require compromise, which is something this person would not be good at. Quite the opposite. The person would rebel against relationships of an intimate nature as they require the ability to listen to another's reality as it is for them. The person could also rebel against the typical roles in relationships, as it is looking to individuate and de-condition from that which suppresses its true inherent nature. Many relationships will seem below their true potential for this individual and will seem to throw them back into the "herd" type mentality that they have been trying to detach from for lifetimes. (S.node in 1st relative to Pluto in the 11th) Sexually the person will still have urges and needs and could be attracted to people who are also looking to individuate. The person will be attracted to those that reflect his/her own alienation from society and would want to bond with people who are as different as he/she is. The person would use sex as a way to experiment and learn about him/her-self and could use people for the purpose of serving ulterior needs and desires, moving on shortly after those desires were satisfied.
The souls evolutionary desire is to integrate into society and use its uniqueness as a way of bringing its talents to the world. The Polarity point being the fifth house or Leo, correlates with a subconscious evolutionary desire and need to take charge of ones life and be able to live in a way that is an expression of its unique self. Its like saying "ok now I rebelled and discovered that which I am by rejecting that which I am not, now I know what I am... I will give my contribution to the world, one that no one else can give, as what I will give is my unique creative self"
The polarity point in the fifth house correlates with a need for the soul to be captain of its ship and sail it to the desired destination.
The north node is the evolving ego the Soul needs to develop relative to the Polarity point. The north node located in the 7th house indicates the need to learn to relate to others on an individual and equal basis without the fear of losing its identity or freedom. The soul will need to learn how to compromise and listen to the needs of their partners and others in general. To think of others needs as being just as important as their own. Relative to the 11th house Pluto the person will need to understand others do not all see the world as they do and each individual has their own unique process of individuating, growing and evolving. By initiating a variety of relationships the individual will learn to recognize the individuality of others.
Relative to the fifth house polarity point the soul will need to relate to others in order to be able to actualize itself creatively. This can be done in a team effort of balancing individual needs vs the needs of the partner or group. By understanding their values and meeting them half way, there can be mutual support which will lead to growth in the area that the soul desires (polariy point). The soul will progressively get the needed feedback and support from others as it progresses to meet them on fair and equal terms and acknowledges that in society there is a need for interdependence.
Hi Skywalker,
Very, very good EA reasoning relative to this paradigm. The essence of your analysis would apply to all Souls in this paradigm that were in the individuated evolutionary state and beyond. In the first stage individuated the Soul, of course, would still want to have it's feet in both worlds: the consensus and the individuated.
There are of course millions of Souls with 11th House Pluto's that are not in the individuated state, or beyond. And thus, for those, the essence of your analysis would not apply. See if you can come up with an analysis that would apply to those within the consensus state. Some of the U.S. presidents have had 11th House Pluto's for example: The first Bush, LBJ, and Clinton. And of course they all were within the 3rd Stage of Consensus evolutionary condition.
God Bless, Rad
Rad,
Thank you for your feedback. I was looking to write regardless of the evolutionary state and grasp the core dynamics. Next week I will add additional information regarding those in the consensus state.
S.Node in the 1st
Pluto's polarity point 5th
N.Node in the 7th
Pluto in the 11th house desires to experience itself as an evolving force of freedom. An 11th house Pluto individual inherently needs to free itself from the known and from any stale patterns that limit its self-discovery. This need implies detachment from its own subjective mind and an objective awareness of the whole.
Through that awareness, an understanding is developed of how each of the individual parts that make up the whole (as ego, as son, as friend, as member of a group, society, or nation) contribute to that whole. The Soul's desire, as implied by the 5th house polarity point, to actualize its awareness of itself as a unique individual is crucial to its evolutionary intent.
It must take charge of its own destiny and implement what it discovers about itself into the experience of its life. In fully embodying his specialness while maintaining objective understanding of the whole, he can act upon his individual purpose and link it to a societal cause. This will ultimately lead him to revolutionize and transform (himself and the whole), and allow for him to serve the whole as a crystal clear transmitter of what is not yet known.
In order to actualize the 11th house desire for the individual to experience itself as an evolving force of freedom, this Soul would have lived many lifetimes in which it was subject to realities where certain social rules, conventions, and ideas were expected to be followed, yet within these confines, constantly felt itself different from others. Synthesized with its 1st house S node mode of operation, which secures the individual with independence, self-reliance, and an instinctive autonomous nature, this Soul would have perpetuated being an "outsider" and not needing others.
It might come into this life highly protective of itself, involved solely in its own mission, and resistant to relating with any person or thing that would prevent its individuality. It could come across as a rebel without a cause- having this innate impulse for liberation but nothing to liberate from having isolated itself from people, groups, social scenes, etc. Since the Soul has been wired to realize its individuality through being subject to a group then liberating and detaching from it, its self-realization is essentially contingent upon its realization of others and its ability to relate to any person or anything at all, as implied by 7th house N node.
Therein lies the paradox.
Staying on its solo path and relying only on itself (1st house S node) can keep its sense of freedom dependent only on how different it is from the people around him and precipitate a self-fulfilling prophesy of endless entrapment.
In order for the Soul to evolve its consciousness, it needs to seek out other fringe-folk and initiate relationships with them (7th House Node). In doing that, the individual sets itself up to be reflected by the objectivity and open-mindedness in the others- qualities it's familiar with in itself. That mirroring allows for the individual to feel resonance with these souls and develop trust in them. As these bonds deepen, it inevitably becomes aware of the different uniqueness of each person. While its focus on another remains through its "big picture" lens, it begins to understand how and why its connection even exists.
To fully give itself to partnering with others in relationship while maintaining its own individuality requires interdependence, which gives 11th House Pluto the perfect opportunity to radically free itself from what it known about "freedom" altogether.
Relative to the 5th house polarity point, its will to actualize and share its own ideas will enable the individual to freely be who it is as it continues to see clearly who it is not.
It will embrace who it discovers itself to be as an individual and evolve its sense of freedom, realizing that which had truly prevented his individuality was his own subjective mind.
Hi Rad,
It was great to get your feedback! Thank you.
If this soul were in a consensus state, then would the need to individuate and bring that creative uniqueness (h5 ppp) back into society still be present? Or would they be bringing back a more conformist contribution(h5 ppp)?? I am confused about how that would play out in consensus --especially 2nd stage consensus or even 3rd?
thanks
Begreen,
Your analysis was within the realm of archetypal possibilities relative to the paradigm we are working with. The analysis would reflect those primarily within the 2nd Stage of the Individuated evolutionary condition. Even is this specific evolutionary condition that your analysis reflects there are other evolutionary intentions that have not been addressed in your analysis. You may wish to try to uncover them and repost. Good job so far.
God Bless, Rad
Hi Dhyana,
"If this soul were in a consensus state, then would the need to individuate and bring that creative uniqueness (h5 ppp) back into society still be present? Or would they be bringing back a more conformist contribution(h5 ppp)?? I am confused about how that would play out in consensus --especially 2nd stage consensus or even 3rd?"
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Yes, in the consensus state such a Soul would still feel within itself that it has something special or unique to contribute to the society in which it lived that had a direct application to that society of birth: it's context. Examples of the 3rd Stage are reflected in some of your presidents such as the first Bush, Clinton, and LBJ. Remember LBJ's vision was one of the 'great society' in which there was an essential social equality. He as in fact the great champion of the poor that created all kinds of new social programs that helped them. Even in the 2nd Stage within the consensus such a Soul could still feel it has something different and unique to contribute. Remember one of the archetypal dimensions of the 11th house is of 'inventions'. And, of course, of of the archetypal dimensions of the S.Node in the 1st house is the inner sense or feeling of having a 'special' destiny that requires freedom in order to discover and actualize. There is also an inherent capacity of leadership within it. So in the 2nd Stage of the Consensus that could manifest as something like a welder who develops a new way of welding for example, etc, etc, etc.
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God Bless, Rad
hi rad.
are you referring to unadressed evolutionary intentions of 11th house pluto, or of combined pluto with n & s nodes?
can you say more about how the analysis reflects 2nd stage individuated?
thank you,
green
Hi Rad and all:
I am wondering if the 11th house pluto archetype in the consensus could, on a neutral level, be simply about progress in the area of improvement of life conditions - ie. upgrading the quality of lifestyle.
any feedback and thoughts would be appreciated.
Hi Rad,
Thank you so much for offering this thread. I went ahead and wrote up my analysis without looking at what others wrote. I really just wanted to make sure I actually wrote my analysis up so I could participate in a more active way. I felt that if I read through other posts first, I would not have then wrote mine up. Having written mine, I now feel that I can take the time to read through the others. I hope it is ok with you that I have done it this way. I really do want to participate and receive your feedback.
Peace,
Ellen
Pluto in the 11th House/SN in the 1st House
This Soul has been engaged in recent lifetimes in breaking free of old conditioning patterns adopted through contact and identification with family, friends, society, work, etc. (Pluto/11th, SN/1st). There has been a strong evolutionary need to shed old identifications (Pluto/11th) and actively seek out new forms of identity (SN/1st). As a result of this evolutionary intent, freedom and independence have been strong forces in this Soul's makeup in recent lifetimes.
Pluto in the 11th House. In all evolutionary stages, the 11th House Pluto Soul has been seeking to disengage in some way (or resisting the evolutionary intent to do so) from the bonds that have chained her/him to the past and to old, outmoded ways of identifying herself/himself. The stage of development will determine to what extent the Soul has been identifying the origin of the attachment to be within or without and thus to what extent the process has been occurring consciously or unconsciously. In the Consensus and early Individuated states, the Soul has been understanding the cause for the attachments to be due to external forces; feeling a strong need to belong, the Soul will have been having a hard time tuning into these feelings of disconnect (Consensus) or accepting them (early Individuated) and thus will have been resisting them. The person in these states has been feeling isolated and alone and, not understanding why, has been projecting these feelings onto society/family/friends/etc, blaming them. In these stages, the alienated Souls, if fortunate, have found other alienated Souls to hook up with, forming alienated subcultures of belonging. In either case, there have been strong forces acting on this Soul (unconscious projection), forcing a progressive shift in self-identification. More advanced Souls (later Individuated and Spiritual states) have progressively seen the cause of the attachments as originating within in the form of desires, old emotional patterns, cultural conditioning, cognitive misunderstandings, etc., and have progressively been able to accurately identify these causes, allowing them to then free themselves of them. As these Souls have shed the old restrictive patterns, they have also learned how not to become enchained again.
SN in the 1st House. With the SN in the 1st House, this person has been actively shedding everything from the prior cycle of evolutionary development that has been holding her/him back, or s/he has been actively resisting the evolutionary need and intent to do so. If s/he has been cooperating with the evolutionary need/intent to shed past obstacles to growth, s/he has most likely actualized the sense of special destiny s/he feels in a positive way, helping to advance society or simply having succeeded in shedding old personal identifications and pioneering for her/himself new forms of identification. If s/he has been resisting this evolutionary intent, s/he will have been actively working to keep society locked into old moral codes of conduct and traditions, feeling this to be the special destiny s/he has been asked to fulfill. Or s/he will have been simply isolating her/himself from society at large, relentlessly criticizing society from this angry and desperate place. Whether this Soul has been actualizing her/his destiny in a constructive or destructive way, there has been a strong need to refrain from developing strong attachments to anyone, any group or any perspective. This Soul's imperative has been freedom for the purpose of facilitating an objective perspective and presence in the world. If actualizing in a destructive manner, the Soul would actualize this need in an angry and rebellious manner - using anger and rebellion as a means of breaking off connection with others. If actualizing in a more constructive manner, the Soul's natural growth processes would lead to feelings of dissatisfaction with the latest status quo and thus an instinctual disengagement with old people, forms, groups, etc. and consequent engagement with new people, forms, groups, etc. as the need to grow became stronger than the need to belong. Because of the constant need for growth in terms of identity, the Soul has been experiencing ongoing insecurity in the form of identity crises. Ultimately, the result of this process for this Soul has been an allegiance to self alone or at least above all else. Depending on the level of awareness of the Soul, this insecurity resulting from the constant need to grow beyond old forms of identity, may have been resulting in feelings of frustration and anger (and possibly violence) directed at others.
PPP in the 5th House and NN in the 7th House
With the PPP in the 5th House and the NN in the 7th House, the evolutionary intent in this lifetime is to develop a strong sense of self and corresponding sense of life purpose by comparing and contrasting possible self-identities as encountered in the context of one-on-one relationships. Whereas in past lifetimes, the response to identity crisis and insecurity might have led to allegiance to self alone, in this lifetime, the need is to encounter "the other" for the purpose of gaining the perspective needed to understand one's own life purpose better. Rather than "Who am I?", the question in this lifetime that is wanting and needing to be answered is, "What is my purpose?" By pursuing (one-on-one) relationships with others, perhaps within the context of larger groups, this Soul will begin the process of discovering her/his purpose and how to actualize it within the context of the larger group. Resistance to this evolutionary intent will manifest as anger towards "the other" and, as a result, continued allegiance to self alone. Because such a response will lead to a failure to actualize in the world, in this circumstance the Soul would experience a sense of extreme alienation. Eventually, this alienation will force the Soul to connect with "the other", initiating the process towards realizing the evolutionary intent of the Soul. Progressively, the Soul would feel a deeper and deeper sense of special purpose.
For this Soul, "the other" would be the initiator into this realm of special purpose. Initially there would be resistance to receiving the attention of the other as the Soul would still be oriented towards the culture of one that has allowed her/him to answer the question: Who am I? But as the Soul progressed, s/he would experience an increasing need for the validation from this other, eventually depending on it. Because this Soul would still feel that they have to do it all on their own, s/he would instinctually manipulate relationship situations in such a way as to receive the needed attention that s/he cannot yet accept that s/he needs. On the one hand, the Soul would experience anger towards the other for intruding on her/his independence and freedom. And on the other hand, the Soul would experience a strong, instinctual need for the other. From the perspective of the evolutionary intent of the PPP in the 5th and the NN in the 7th, insecurity would be felt in response to the need to let down one's guard and accept the presence of the other in one's life.
As the Soul evolved through this evolutionary intent, s/he would initiate relationships with a wide variety of others, thus allowing her/his unique sense of self to develop and deepen. As s/he became secure in her/his sense of self and purpose in the world, s/he would progressively come to see the other as her/his equal and co-creator. One danger of this evolutionary profile would be the cultivation of dependency resulting in a loss of unique sense of identity and the instinctual need to angrily rebel. Another danger would be instinctually partnering with such a wide variety of people that all perspective was lost, thus resulting further in a confused sense of self and purpose.
Pluto in the 11th house, SN in 1st house, NN in 7th house.
Here's one possible story I can see:
This soul could be a freedom fighter . One who has intensely identified with his mental and ideological views, who has felt different from the prevailing views of his overall environment, with the possibility of identifying with a small group within his society. He understands that his socialized individuation has value to the whole even if it is only part of the whole. His south node in 1st house could indicate that he was willing to fight for these views, like a Robin Hood or Che Guevera. He has relied on his instincts to liberate himself and those that share in his views and he would likely have had little patience for anything that stood in the way of his vision or that of his group, resorting to violence without reservation, as long as it aligned with his ideology.
In this life , his soul's intent is to actualize the vision he has been fighting for by learning to have his heart involved and not just his head . The north node in the seventh would find him relating to others and feeling for them, perhaps even taking on the projections of others who can sense his leadership abilities, and charisma. He will be learning have a more intimate and heartfelt connection to the needs of the community and the reality of an ideology when it is actualized with many others, not just the chosen few who share in his views. He will be learning to not act on impulse or with the threat of violence, he will be learning to use harmonious relationship as the vehicle to deliver his vision of liberty and how to do things better. He wouldn't necessarily lose his ability to fight for what is right but he would learn to temper his instincts to fight with other means. His individuated soul desire for self actualization is in fact realized by the actualization of group values.
Variations on this would be seen depending on his evolutionary state, how much he is resisting actualizing his "differentness", and what the other archetypes are in his chart.
This is what I can do for now,
Thanks, Heather
Pluto 11th - SN 1st - PPP 5th - NN 7th
The core evolutionary desires of (her) Soul that had preceded the current life had been to rebel or liberate herself from consensus value systems due to an emphasized feeling within her psyche of being different. Her personal, social, political, economic, domestic, relational, artistic and intellectual values were a radical departure from the consensus; therefore she stood apart - sometimes as a group of one. The awareness of her relentless "differentness" equated to a sense of alienation from the societal, parental or peer group milieu. The intention to rebel against the existing society would have taken one of three forms: absolute rebellion due to feeling totally disconnected; joining with others as a group who are also rebelling; or, trying to resurrect the value systems of the past.
Other core evolutionary intentions of her Soul were "detachment," to objectify and understand, in a non-emotional way, the overall nature and dynamics of anything, how whole systems are structured, how emotional and psychological dynamics are structured - and how this objective understanding can lead to self-knowledge. Her choices in new pathways reflected a fundamental desire for freedom, exploration and experimentation with life.
In the evolutionary past, the 1st house archetype needed to initiate a new evolutionary direction because an old cycle had ended. She would therefore have needed the freedom, independence and adventure to follow the paths that she was instinctively and spontaneously attracted to. Taking these new paths and directions actually allowed her to learn more about herself, her identity, and who or what she was to become. Since the function of the 1st house is in a state of continual movement or "becoming," how she identified herself was continually changing and developing. The egocentric structures created by her Soul took the shape of a personality that appeared to be quite narcissistic and self-orientated, with a special destiny to fulfill.
The reaction to being different would have expressed itself through her desire nature. The 1st house is naturally ruled by Mars, the lower octave of Pluto, and an examination of Mars in her chart would give more information. With the SN in the 1st house, the desires emanating from her Soul would have been brought to egocentric consciousness in a directly instinctive way, and they would have been acted upon immediately.
If her soul desire to rebel against society took the form of "absolute rebellion due to feeling totally disconnected" then she would have experienced a total disconnection from parents, society and peer group. Egocentric behaviours expressed via the SN/1st could have been quite confrontational, radical, aggressive, righteous, intellectual, challenging, and defiant to the existing system. Due to her absolute detachment from the social system, she would have chosen to be independent from groups - becoming a group of one - and preferring to relate, sporadically, to others on an individual basis who were just as alienated as herself. The intensity of her rebellious vibration naturally challenged the security of others.
If her soul desired to "interact with others in group situations," then the choices she made served her own needs, and her own sense of meaning and purpose in some way. She could easily have acted as leader of the group. Her friends would have had the same orientation as her: shared values, rebelling against society, strong sexual nature, narcissistic types - with the sense of purpose and meaning dependent on belonging to a group. Magnetic attractions to others in the group expressed a strong sexual desire nature, perhaps of a bi-, homosexual or experimental kind, together with an instinctual fear of becoming too enmeshed in any relationship. Also, as soon as her strong curiosity was satisfied in any relationship, she rebelled against the idea of any commitment. The purpose for these sexual adventures was to gain self-knowledge as to her basic sexual nature, and to learn essential evolutionary lessons around the nature of friendship.
If her soul tried to "resurrect the value systems of the past" (eg social dinosaur), then she would have rebelled against all present day value systems, and formed friendships only with those of like-mind who were just as iconoclastic and fixed as she was. Her value system would have been very limited, rigid, conservative and traditional.
The next step in her evolution is demonstrated by the Pluto polarity point in the 5th house. The core bottom line desire correlates to learning how to separate from the peer group so that she can actualize her own unique individuality, destiny, creativity, willpower and value systems. In order to do this she must learn how to creatively actualize her own purpose within the larger social group and within society as a whole. In objectifying the values of any group, any value system, or any emotional or psychological dynamics within relating to others, she learns whether or not those values or dynamics will be conducive and beneficial to her own special individual creative purposes.
The North Node 7th correlates to the evolving egocentric structure that she is creating that allows the Pluto polarity point to be actualized: she is learning that by embracing the individual needs of a partner or friend that she herself will attract others who will do the same for her. She is learning how to give rather than create relationships where the others must serve only her needs and purposes. Relationships are a new pattern for her - and so she is breaking free from fear and the patterns of the past for complete freedom. She is learning to make different choices in life: to overcome her earlier fear of commitment in relationships.
She came from a past life orientation where her reality was of primary importance, but through the 7th house NN she is grasping the reality of another person, how to listen, how to give, when to give, when not to give - rather than just using others for her own purposes and then discarding them. By listening to the reality of her partner, she will be able to grasp their needs and give according to their reality. Relationships for her have the potential for balancing her basic need for independence with supporting another person, therefore she is learning how to be free within a relationship, how to give time to herself, and how to give time to her partner.
The 7th house dynamic could attract a partner with a submissive orientation, perhaps one who is very needy for commitment. This is brought about by the 5th house polarity point, the current evolutionary intention, the need for control, and for everything to revolve around her. She could revert to the security of the past, by creating an exit point in the relationship, or she could learn how to objectify the dynamics in the relationship, thereby learning the fundamental lessons of balance and equality.
I was trying to think of how shock/trauma would manifest in this chart and Linda's insight that s/he might have bi/homosexual tendencies led me to think that the shock/trauma would come about in the form of moments of self-realization in terms of sexuality. Self-realization would come about from the realization that s/he found her/himself feeling aroused by someone of the same gender. This would create internal shocks as the realization would come as a complete surprise to this individual, coming to realize it only after the instinctual action brought it to her/his consciousness. This realization would then lead to a choice ranging anywhere from complete denial (and thus becoming a staunch defender of "traditional" values) to complete acceptance (and possibly promiscuity as another form of self-destruction if s/he could not deal with the realization...?). If s/he chose denial, s/he would feel increasingly alienated from the world and from her/himself. This course could lead, in extreme cases, to suicide (violence inflicted at self) or violence directed outward, even to the point of killing another. This person in this circumstance of denial would probably lead a double life, unable to completely suppress her/his natural and instinctual tendencies and also unable to completely suppress the natural evolutionary intent to experiment with identity as a means of growth. Since there is a narcissistic orientation to the 1st house archetype and a self-centered orientation to the 5th house, it is possible that this person would not be aware of the impact her/his actions have on others. Thus, shocks/traumas could come about in the aftermath of whatever actions s/he took in relation to others as s/he saw the results of that action as it impacted others. S/he may experience person after person (perhaps lover after lover) leaving her/him in response to her/his narcissistic orientation. This would certainly create shocks of awareness that would ultimately lead to growth. A possible seed of this narcissistic orientation that led to the loss of lovers could be the social rejection s/he faces/faced, leading to unhealed wounding. The repeated failure of relationship would be necessary to awaken her/him to this unhealed wound and thus begin the process of healing it....
That's what I can come up with...
Ellen
Addition: positive/constructive expression of this evolutionary signature could be the partnering with someone of the same gender (culture of 2) and associating with other glbt people (11th house), and from this place of fringe identity and relationship, develop a strong sense of identity and awareness. This then could lead to participation, from the outside, in the slow but hopefully progressive enlightenment of society at large.
One question: would this person NECESSARILY be gay/bi? Or could the sexual nature of this archetype still play out evolutionarily even if straight..?
Further addition: One thought I had in the case of someone who wasn't gay - if this is possible with this signature. But the possibility could be someone born into a puritan kind of family/cultural environment. Then, just the discovery of her/himself as a sexual being would constitute a shock that would trigger the evolutionary growth required.
Hi Rad,
I was wondering if the sexual distortion seen in something like NAMBLA (National Association for Man-Boy Love) could be a manifestation of this chart...?
5th house - children
1st house - sexual instinct (distorted!)
11th house - groups
7th house - equality and one-on-one relationship (distorted!)
Ellen
SEE CORRECTED POST BELOW
A couple of more thoughts:
natural inconjunct between the 7th house (NN) and the 11th house (Pluto): thus crisis is inbuilt in this signature, in addition to shock/trauma, in terms of making progress towards the evolutionary intent.
natural trine between the PPP (5th house) and the SN (1st house): not sure how this would play out. To take a shot at it, the 5th house PPP would easily draw upon the 1st house SN. This to me suggests and increase in the tension between choosing to be a culture of one vs. the evolutionary intent of forming partnerships to gain greater perspective on self.
natural sextile between the 11th house (Pluto) and the 1st house (SN):
natural sextile between the 5th house (PPP) and the 7th house (NN):
Sextile suggests opportunity that can be taken advantage of if the person makes an effort to do so. To me this suggests the possibility of focusing solely on the past or solely on the future, depending on where the Soul takes advantage. I suppose it is possible to take advantage of both. Possibly in this case the trine between the future (PPP) and past (SN) - the ease of this - leads to crisis (inconjunct between NN and Pluto). And this combination awakens the sextile opportunities. Just taking a crack at this.... Thought thinking about the aspects might be relevant.... Any validity to this?
Peace,
Ellen
Hi
I apologize for my english expression.
I really appreciate the attention , time and knwledge that Rad, Deva, Steve, and Adina, are offering in this forum with great generosity.
I also appreciate the participation of all members, whose questions, insights and practice are an opportunity for me to learning.
Hi Rad
This is my first try.
It is perhaps too abstract or theoretical.
May be it is a leftover of my astrological practice. In psychological astrology I prefer to remain in an archetypal level when I analize a chart in order to avoid my own projections.
For me it is like an understanding framework. Then, the prson's experience gives "flesh" and definition to it.
I would like to know if it is a background or a load, a handicap, to EA reasoning.
Pluto in 11th House - South Node in 1st House, North Node in 7th House.
The pre-existing dynamic of this soul - prior to Pluto in 11th. , was one of conforming to social or/and familial expectations and ways of self -defining.
Now, from prior lifetimes nearer to this one, the Soul is trying to liberate from this need to conforming to society.(Capricorn, 10th House)
The Soulmay also be needing, and intending, to liberate from past life memories held within the individuated unconscious (Uranus).
There are three ways in whichindividuals with Pluto in 11th H. react to this evolutionary intent.
One of them is more uranian in nature, and the other 2 are more related to the saturnian aspect of Aquarius, that is, they react resisting the impulse to liberation and sticking to tradition.
I think it depends on the evolutionary stage. In the Individuated stage the Soul will accept and develop the intent of liberation, in Consensus stage it will stick to society, to tradition. In each stage, to less evolution would correspond more resistance.
The reaction could also depend on other factors in the chart.
I will take only the first reaction, the uranian, for the sake of simplicity.
Also because, although it depends on all the factors in the chart, this evolutionary/karmic dynamic seems to me orientated to liberation.
May be with an 10th House South Node, or even with 4th,6th or 3rd H. SN I would be thinking of more resistance to the intent. Is that correct or am I confusing levels of interpretation?
I took this reaction because:
JWG said that liberation from cattle consciousness (Capricorn, Saturn) demands Arian courage, even to stand as a group of one if necesary.
This Arian courage could have been provided by the egocentric structures that thios Soul took, reflected in her South Node.
Here I wonder if resistance to liberation resides in the Soul (because of dual desires) and therefore she takes these egocentric structures.
Or if the egocentric structures are who hold the resistance or develop the necessary courage to liberate.
Or both?.
Then, from this SN we can infere that this Soul tried to liberate initiating new experiences, mostly in relationships. She has beeen living a brand new cycle.
The goal was self-discovering and discovering new things.
May be she did it in an egocentrical and uncontroled way, but always in search of freedom and independence.
May be she also experienced a conflict between manifesting that freedom and resisting the evolutionary impulses, that lead to cyclical crises.
Anyway, the need of independence was compulsive
And the impulse to create new relationships, new experiences was,in a way, instintive.
The relationships she probably sought was with people who could help to answer her questions: Who am I?, What am I? in a de-conditioned way.
And she sought this answers in the experience.
There is an inherent paradox in 1/7 nodal axis, between being independent or in relationships.
Jung said that the way to surmount an opposition in finding what in essence is common in them, that is finding the unity behind the duality.
I believe that the way to overcome, to surmount it,is develping the capacity to be in a relationship of equality and independence, where no one "needs" the other for any motive, but both are together because they want to.
That is, being in relationship in a not dependent way.
There is a similar paradox, I believe, in Aquarius, although different in quality, perhaps a higher vibrational or evolutionary octave.
It is between being an independt individual (individuated if more evolved), and being part of a group, part of society, Humanity.
I think that the differencfe that exists in this similarity is that in 1/7 the alternative is individuality or partnership.
In Aquarius it is individuation or group relationship.
And individuality is still egoic. Individuation and indivduated group relationship means detaching from the ego, from the egocentric individuality.
In this Soul,that would be the intent behind the 1/7 relationship tests and trials.
PLUTO'S POLARITY POINT
The PPP is to take command of his destiny, to creatively actualize it.
It means not only to establish her own self-definition and goals, but also to creatively actualize them, to transform them in action, in concrete realities.
To do that is necessary:
1) to minimize her need of security based on other's acceptacion.
This involves not waiting that other people confirm her ideas; not waiting that other act first to be able to acting.
It also involves the need of accepting her own difference, and even affirming it. In this difference resides her power and ability to self actualization.
2) The Soul, in whatever evolutionary condition,by means of her egocentric structure,needs learning to be objective.
That is the key to liberating from past conditioning.
This means, relative to Leo polarity, that consciousness needs learn to detach form its own subjective reality as the only point of view of reality.
and, again, that means detaching form the ego.
Then, consciousness needs to become objective.
And to attain objectivity we need to be more conscious, i.e. to change a subjective-instintive attitude into a conscious attitude.
JWG said that the act of rebellion is a necessary psychological act for individuation to occur.
And Jung said that the conscious elaboration of unconscious material is fundamental to achieve the individuation process.
JWG also said that only suffering because of a karmic imbalance we don't resolve the pattern, we have to understand it, to make it conscious. (I hope I am correctly rememebering what I read somewhere in his writings).
Here is where the North Node in 7th House takes its part in the process, trying to actualize objectivity through a different form of living the relationships.
In 1st. House independence is an instintive impulse.
In 7th House independence becomes a conscious attitude.
The Soul will initiate different realtionships in order to learn through comparison and contrast, through recognizing the other's perspective.
In 1st House she always needed to oppose to someone in order to feel independent or different (somehow as a teenager does).
But the need to have someone to whom oppose involves a dependence. The self definition may be "not being like the other", instead of "being myself".
In 7th House the goal is to attain an attitude of not needing to oppose, not needing to agree, not "needing the other" in that sense, thus not depending.
The goal will then be:being actually independent because the ultimate sense of security is found within the inner universe (Aquarius).
May be the NN (after many lifetimes) will attain this actaulization through a "test and trial" sequence of experiences in wich, may be,
a) The Soul lives relationships in which she is the dominant person.
b) Relationships where she is dominated ( here she has the oppportunity to atone and to understand, become more conscious)
c) Eventually she establishes relationships based on equality, not defensive and with mutual commitment.
Equality means also gender roles (not only power), and that can lead to the construction of the androgynous interior self.
This libran androgynous within can be the foundation of the aquarian whole interior universe.
I believe this can be achieved in the Individuated Stage.
In consensus stage realtionships are still based on hierarchy and unconsious projections, also gender projections.
However, the effort to attain objectivity and to establish relationships of equality can help to evolve into the Individuated stage.
When the Northe Node has provided the possibility of equal relationships, it will be more possible for this Soul to establish relationships with like-minded people who reflects the way she sees life and society.
And also to participate in goups in an individuated manner, what is also another aspect of her evolutionary intent.
I am sorry, Rad for the length of this practice, for not being able to synthesize this raw material.
God Bless
Mirta
A couple of more thoughts:
natural inconjunct between the 7th house (NN) and the 11th house (Pluto): thus crisis is inbuilt in this signature, in addition to shock/trauma, in terms of making progress towards the evolutionary intent.
Correction: this is not correct. There is a natural TRINE between the 7th (NN) and 11th (Pluto), thus setting up a mystic rectangle. Perhaps this simply signifies the ease with which one on one relationships would come about through group engagement.
natural trine between the PPP (5th house) and the SN (1st house): not sure how this would play out. To take a shot at it, the 5th house PPP would easily draw upon the 1st house SN. This to me suggests an increase in the tension between choosing to be a culture of one vs. the evolutionary intent of forming partnerships to gain greater perspective on self.
natural sextile between the 11th house (Pluto) and the 1st house (SN):
natural sextile between the 5th house (PPP) and the 7th house (NN):
Sextile suggests opportunity that can be taken advantage of if the person makes an effort to do so. To me this suggests the possibility of focusing solely on the past or solely on the future, depending on where the Soul takes advantage. I suppose it is possible to take advantage of both. Possibly in this case the trine between the future (PPP) and past (SN) - the ease of this - leads to crisis (inconjunct between NN and Pluto). And this combination awakens the sextile opportunities. Just taking a crack at this.... Thought thinking about the aspects might be relevant.... Any validity to this?
This also is wrong. Because there in no inconjunct, but instead 2 trines, both sextiles would be active at the same time, with both trines enlisting both the past and present evolutionary intents...
Peace,
Ellen
Hi green,
Quote from: begreen on Nov 13, 2010, 10:50 AM
hi rad.
are you referring to unadressed evolutionary intentions of 11th house pluto, or of combined pluto with n & s nodes?
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In combination with the Nodes.
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can you say more about how the analysis reflects 2nd stage individuated?
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Here is what is posted on the main website about the Individuated Evolutionary Stage: the three divisions within it including the 2nd Stage Individuated.
In the first subdivision the Soul will typically try to "˜compensate´ for this inner feeling of being different, of not belonging to the consensus, and the inner sense of alienation by trying to "˜appear´ normal. This compensation will then cause the Soul to structure their outer reality much as Souls do in the consensus state: normal kinds of work, normal kinds of friends, the normal appearance, and so on. Yet inwardly their feel and know that they can no longer personally identify with that compensatory reality that they attempt to sustain. This compensation manifests in this subdivision because, after all, the consensus is just where the Soul has been. Thus, it constitutes a sense of security relative to the inner feeling of being detached and different. We must remember that for most people the sense of security for life is a function of self-consistency. And self-consistency is a function of the past. As a result the compensation manifests as a reaction to this increasingly new feeling of being different, of not belonging anymore to the consensus. This feeling creates a sense of insecurity in this subdivision because is it brand new: the Soul has not been here before. Yet this very act of compensation creates a very real state of being in a "˜living lie´.
Even as this compensatory behavior occurs the Soul will nonetheless will be questioning everything deep within themselves: the privacy of their own inner life. Typically, they will read all kinds of books that contain ideas that go way beyond the "˜norm´ as defined by the consensus. Many, depending on cultural possibilities, will take classes or workshops that have the same theme or intention. Some will seek out these kinds of "˜alternative´ environments in order to find and bond with others of "˜like mind´: others who feel just as they do. This compensatory behavior will progressively give way, involution, as the Soul evolves further through this subdivision. The Soul will progressively distance itself from the consensus and begin to form relationships with other alienated Souls just like itself. Because of the necessity of work, or a job, most of these Souls will either do any kind of work just to get by without identifying with such work in any way, or they will actualize a work that is individualistic and symbolic of their own individuality.
In the second subdivision the underlying archetype of Uranus as it correlates to rebellion is at it's highest. This rebellion is so extreme that the Soul has now "˜thrown off´ almost any idea or philosophy that has come before at any level of reality. Such Souls end up in a kind of existential void and typically hang out with other such alienated Souls that has the effect of reinforcing the total state of rebellion from all of reality other than the reality that they have now defined through the existential void.
These Souls will exhibit a deep fear of integrating into society in any kind of way for the fear suggests to them that if they do so that somehow that very same society or reality will absorb their hard won, at least to them, individuality which is defined through the act or rebellion in this stage. As a result these Souls typically hang out on the avant-garde of society hurling critical atom bombs at it so as to reinforce there sense of personal righteousness defined by their alienation from the consensus. Because of the natural law of evolution, which is always preceded by an involution, these people at some point will realize that their fear of integrating into reality, into society, is just that: a fear only. Once this is realized they will them begin to make the effort to integrate back into society but with their individuality in tact. Once this is realized the Soul will then evolve into the third subdivision within the individuated state.
In the third subdivision the Soul will then begin to manifest within society or reality as truly unique and gifted people from the point of view of the consensus. This means that such Souls will have in some way a unique gift, or capacity, to help the consensus itself evolve by integrating that capacity or gift within the consensus. Yet these people will not inwardly feel identified with the consensus: they are standing inwardly very distant from it. The consciousness of these Souls have progressively expanded through the individuated state in such a way that they are aware of the entire world and the relativity of beliefs, values, moralities, and so on. As a result they will feel within themselves to be "˜world citizens´ much more than being a singular citizen of the country of birth. The inner pondering as to the very nature of existence, the nature of Creation, the nature of who they "˜really´ are essentially defines the nature of their consciousness. Progressively these people begin to really open up their consciousness to the universal, the cosmos, to God/ess. Not the God/ess defined through consensus religions but the real or natural God/ess. A perfect example in recent history that reflects such a soul is Albert Einstein. Another example would be Carl Jung.
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God Bless, Rad
Hi blueksy,
Quote from: bluesky on Nov 13, 2010, 12:12 PM
Hi Rad and all:
I am wondering if the 11th house pluto archetype in the consensus could, on a neutral level, be simply about progress in the area of improvement of life conditions - ie. upgrading the quality of lifestyle.
any feedback and thoughts would be appreciated.
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Yes, this can be but that desire would occur as a result of other archetypal processess that occur within the 11th House Pluto. Those processes would then lead to such a desire, and the S.Node in the 1st House would then be linked with that desire by way of determining from within itself what special or unique abilities the Soul had for that to be actualized. ****************************************************************
God Bless, Rad
Hi Ellen,
Very, very good effort at trying to demonstrate the differences in the different EA conditions, and the interrelationship between Pluto, the Nodes, and the polarity point for Pluto.
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"For this Soul, "the other" would be the initiator into this realm of special purpose. Initially there would be resistance to receiving the attention of the other as the Soul would still be oriented towards the culture of one that has allowed her/him to answer the question: Who am I? But as the Soul progressed, s/he would experience an increasing need for the validation from this other, eventually depending on it."
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The actual role of 'the other' is to teach the Soul to be an equal within society at large, and in it's personal interactions with others in general. It is to teach the Soul of what others actually need according to themselves, not what this Soul thinks that others need. This then requires the Soul to learn how to 'listen' to others in such a way as then to be able to 'objectify' the realities of others, versus a subjective projection upon others of who the Soul thinks that they are, and what they need. There is a core narcissism within the Pluto in the 11th, S.Node in the 1st that needs to be eliminated or purged from within this Soul. Thus, the polarity point of Pluto, and the N.Node in the 7th in order to learn that this Soul is an equal to others that is learning to give, not take. In learning to give to others what they actually need then enforces this lesson in learning to listen to others as they actually are, and that, in turn, progressively evolves the Soul from the existing inner orientation to itself from the self centered narcissist to an equal among everyone else. One of the roles of the 'other' then is to help keep this Soul aligned with that core evolutionary intention by way of the feedback that the other provides.
Good job !
God Bless, Rad
Hi Heather,
What you came up with is fine, it is within the realm of achetypal possiblities.
God Bless, Rad
Hi Linda,
Exceptional EA analysis that would primarily apply to the Individuated Evolutionary Stage. If you feel like it see if you can come up with an EA analysis that would apply to the Consensus State. Again, for me, it is just wonderful to experience your own ongoing evolution and understanding of EA. Bravo.
God Bless, Rad
Hi Mirta,
You did just fine for a very first effort. I would encourage you to read what others have written as well. And the length is just fine Mirta.
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Quote from: mirta on Nov 14, 2010, 06:46 AM
Hi
I apologize for my english expression.
I really appreciate the attention , time and knwledge that Rad, Deva, Steve, and Adina, are offering in this forum with great generosity.
I also appreciate the participation of all members, whose questions, insights and practice are an opportunity for me to learning.
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Hi Rad
This is my first try.
It is perhaps too abstract or theoretical.
May be it is a leftover of my astrological practice. In psychological astrology I prefer to remain in an archetypal level when I analize a chart in order to avoid my own projections.
For me it is like an understanding framework. Then, the prson's experience gives "flesh" and definition to it.
I would like to know if it is a background or a load, a handicap, to EA reasoning.
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No, it is important to stay within the realm of the archetypes themselves. So it is not a handicap in anyway: it is the right way to do this work.
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Pluto in 11th House - South Node in 1st House, North Node in 7th House.
The pre-existing dynamic of this soul - prior to Pluto in 11th. , was one of conforming to social or/and familial expectations and ways of self -defining.
Now, from prior lifetimes nearer to this one, the Soul is trying to liberate from this need to conforming to society.(Capricorn, 10th House)
The Soulmay also be needing, and intending, to liberate from past life memories held within the individuated unconscious (Uranus).
There are three ways in whichindividuals with Pluto in 11th H. react to this evolutionary intent.
One of them is more uranian in nature, and the other 2 are more related to the saturnian aspect of Aquarius, that is, they react resisting the impulse to liberation and sticking to tradition.
I think it depends on the evolutionary stage. In the Individuated stage the Soul will accept and develop the intent of liberation, in Consensus stage it will stick to society, to tradition. In each stage, to less evolution would correspond more resistance.
The reaction could also depend on other factors in the chart.
I will take only the first reaction, the uranian, for the sake of simplicity.
Also because, although it depends on all the factors in the chart, this evolutionary/karmic dynamic seems to me orientated to liberation.
May be with an 10th House South Node, or even with 4th,6th or 3rd H. SN I would be thinking of more resistance to the intent. Is that correct or am I confusing levels of interpretation?
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The resistance would be a function of the individual nature or each Soul. No astrological symbol, of itself, would correlate with a resistance to the evolutionary imperatives of the Soul. When resistance occurs then it is necessary to determine, from an EA point of view, why that resistance is occurring.
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I took this reaction because:
JWG said that liberation from cattle consciousness (Capricorn, Saturn) demands Arian courage, even to stand as a group of one if necesary.
This Arian courage could have been provided by the egocentric structures that thios Soul took, reflected in her South Node.
Here I wonder if resistance to liberation resides in the Soul (because of dual desires) and therefore she takes these egocentric structures.
Or if the egocentric structures are who hold the resistance or develop the necessary courage to liberate.
Or both?.
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The resistance, when observed, occurs from within the Soul.
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God Bless, Rad
Hi Ellen,
Quote from: Ellen on Nov 14, 2010, 05:53 AM
I was trying to think of how shock/trauma would manifest in this chart and Linda's insight that s/he might have bi/homosexual tendencies led me to think that the shock/trauma would come about in the form of moments of self-realization in terms of sexuality. Self-realization would come about from the realization that s/he found her/himself feeling aroused by someone of the same gender. This would create internal shocks as the realization would come as a complete surprise to this individual, coming to realize it only after the instinctual action brought it to her/his consciousness. This realization would then lead to a choice ranging anywhere from complete denial (and thus becoming a staunch defender of "traditional" values) to complete acceptance (and possibly promiscuity as another form of self-destruction if s/he could not deal with the realization...?). If s/he chose denial, s/he would feel increasingly alienated from the world and from her/himself. This course could lead, in extreme cases, to suicide (violence inflicted at self) or violence directed outward, even to the point of killing another. This person in this circumstance of denial would probably lead a double life, unable to completely suppress her/his natural and instinctual tendencies and also unable to completely suppress the natural evolutionary intent to experiment with identity as a means of growth. Since there is a narcissistic orientation to the 1st house archetype and a self-centered orientation to the 5th house, it is possible that this person would not be aware of the impact her/his actions have on others. Thus, shocks/traumas could come about in the aftermath of whatever actions s/he took in relation to others as s/he saw the results of that action as it impacted others. S/he may experience person after person (perhaps lover after lover) leaving her/him in response to her/his narcissistic orientation. This would certainly create shocks of awareness that would ultimately lead to growth. A possible seed of this narcissistic orientation that led to the loss of lovers could be the social rejection s/he faces/faced, leading to unhealed wounding. The repeated failure of relationship would be necessary to awaken her/him to this unhealed wound and thus begin the process of healing it....
That's what I can come up with...
Ellen
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Yes, all this is possible within this paradigm ............
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Addition: positive/constructive expression of this evolutionary signature could be the partnering with someone of the same gender (culture of 2) and associating with other glbt people (11th house), and from this place of fringe identity and relationship, develop a strong sense of identity and awareness. This then could lead to participation, from the outside, in the slow but hopefully progressive enlightenment of society at large.
One question: would this person NECESSARILY be gay/bi? Or could the sexual nature of this archetype still play out evolutionarily even if straight..?
Further addition: One thought I had in the case of someone who wasn't gay - if this is possible with this signature. But the possibility could be someone born into a puritan kind of family/cultural environment. Then, just the discovery of her/himself as a sexual being would constitute a shock that would trigger the evolutionary growth required.
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No, it is not necessary at all. Yes, the EA intent can be played out by being straight.
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God Bless, Rad
Hi Ellen,
Quote from: Ellen on Nov 14, 2010, 06:10 AM
Hi Rad,
I was wondering if the sexual distortion seen in something like NAMBLA (National Association for Man-Boy Love) could be a manifestation of this chart...?
5th house - children
1st house - sexual instinct (distorted!)
11th house - groups
7th house - equality and one-on-one relationship (distorted!)
Ellen
The archetypes here support that but there would have to be other symbols within the whole chart to make it as specific as that.God Bless, Rad
Hi Rad,
Thanks so much for your feedback.
I have read the other practices after posting. I didn't it before to avoid conditioning and self critic comparations.
God Bless
Mirta
Quote from: Rad on Nov 15, 2010, 08:09 AM
Hi Ellen,
Very, very good effort at trying to demonstrate the differences in the different EA conditions, and the interrelationship between Pluto, the Nodes, and the polarity point for Pluto.
**************************************
"For this Soul, "the other" would be the initiator into this realm of special purpose. Initially there would be resistance to receiving the attention of the other as the Soul would still be oriented towards the culture of one that has allowed her/him to answer the question: Who am I? But as the Soul progressed, s/he would experience an increasing need for the validation from this other, eventually depending on it."
********************************************
The actual role of 'the other' is to teach the Soul to be an equal within society at large, and in it's personal interactions with others in general. It is to teach the Soul of what others actually need according to themselves, not what this Soul thinks that others need. This then requires the Soul to learn how to 'listen' to others in such a way as then to be able to 'objectify' the realities of others, versus a subjective projection upon others of who the Soul thinks that they are, and what they need. There is a core narcissism within the Pluto in the 11th, S.Node in the 1st that needs to be eliminated or purged from within this Soul.
Hi Rad,
Is the core narcissism of the 11th house Pluto BECAUSE of the 1st house SN? Or is it intrinsically narcissistic in and of itself? I would have thought that 11th house Pluto, by itself, would NOT be narcissistic because of the group orientation of the sign. Can you explain this to me? Thanks.
Thus, the polarity point of Pluto, and the N.Node in the 7th in order to learn that this Soul is an equal to others that is learning to give, not take. In learning to give to others what they actually need then enforces this lesson in learning to listen to others as they actually are, and that, in turn, progressively evolves the Soul from the existing inner orientation to itself from the self centered narcissist to an equal among everyone else. One of the roles of the 'other' then is to help keep this Soul aligned with that core evolutionary intention by way of the feedback that the other provides.
Good job !
God Bless, Rad
Rad,
Thank you so much for your feedback. I truly appreciate it and am thrilled to have this opportunity. I'm hopeful I will be able to keep participating, though there's a little over a month left of my school program so that may still have to take precedence.... :-[
I understand what you are saying with regard to the 7th house archetype. The evolutionary intent is to learn to see the other for who the other actually is, not according to one's projections, and from there to be able to give according to that other's needs, not according to one's projected ideas of her/his needs. Yes? One question I have is, would what I wrote be a possibility if the dynamic were playing out in a dysfunctional way? I think I was thinking in terms of what would happen if the 11th House Pluto/1st House SN person failed to move beyond the essential narcissism, ie, if this person were resisting the evolutionary intent. So there would be SOME movement towards it (entering into partnerships) but a failure or refusal to actually do the work of learning to see the other for who s/he really is. Any validity to this scenario?
Peace and gratitude,
Ellen
Hi Ellen,
"Is the core narcissism of the 11th house Pluto BECAUSE of the 1st house SN? Or is it intrinsically narcissistic in and of itself? I would have thought that 11th house Pluto, by itself, would NOT be narcissistic because of the group orientation of the sign. Can you explain this to me? "
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It is because of the S.Node in the 1st House, an Aries House, that this narcissism exists.
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"I understand what you are saying with regard to the 7th house archetype. The evolutionary intent is to learn to see the other for who the other actually is, not according to one's projections, and from there to be able to give according to that other's needs, not according to one's projected ideas of her/his needs. Yes? One question I have is, would what I wrote be a possibility if the dynamic were playing out in a dysfunctional way? I think I was thinking in terms of what would happen if the 11th House Pluto/1st House SN person failed to move beyond the essential narcissism, ie, if this person were resisting the evolutionary intent. So there would be SOME movement towards it (entering into partnerships) but a failure or refusal to actually do the work of learning to see the other for who s/he really is. Any validity to this scenario?"
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Yes there is, and the resistance would be based on the self importance of it's own ego balloon.
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God Bless, Rad
>
Hi Rad,
Thanks again for your answers/clarifications/confirmations. Are there other directions to take these archetypes beyond what we have gotten to so far? More about trauma? More about sexuality? More about relationship? Anything else you could recommend looking at? Perhaps more about how the archetypes would manifest differently in the different signs? I will be thinking about all of this, though won't be able to look at it in depth til the weekend. I thought some direction from you might be helpful..
Peace and gratitude,
Ellen
Hi Ellen,
Well they are a variety of different dynamics that have yet to be mentioned or discussed in the paradigm that we are working with. That's why I mentioned that it would be useful for some to read JWG's Pluto through the houses and signs: in this case the 11th House, 1st House, etc. I have a feeling that those who have posted what they have on the paradigm that we are currently working with, some of them, or not yet done with this paradigm. So have been waiting to see if any more responses come in about it. If not, then we will begin another one. At this point I do want to keep it as simple as possible instead of taking, for example, the current paradigm and then linking it to specific signs and/or putting in the planetary rulers of the Nodes.
For those who are participating in this thread let me know if you want to still keep working on this paradigm, or to begin a new one.
God Bless, Rad
Rad,
I am presently still working on the current paradigm. I am putting it into the context of the CONSENSUS evolutionary condition, as you suggested.
Thanks.
Hi Rad,
Thanks so much for your response. I'd like to take another look at it this week. I'd like to read through JWG again, as you suggest, and also incorporate a little of what Deva and Kristin talked about on Kristin's show (the one where they talked about the nodes in Aries/Libra). It was a very insightful conversation.
Ellen
I have a question or maybe just thoughts about the first house. What would lead a soul to feel that they had a special destiny or overly identify with themselves as special? Could it be that they are working out karma with some people that they don't necessarily like? i.e. they were born into a family that is on a different evolutionary level than them and that makes them feel inherently different and 'special' because they 'see' things differently than these people with whom they interact on a daily basis? Maybe they suddenly had to finish off some 2000 year old karma with these people so that they could move to the next level and they are 'angry' about it. They are 'narcissistic' because they feel they don't belong with these people and therefor withdraw into themselves, thinking about their special destiny as it relates to being different from everyone around them.
If you are a third stage individuated soul born into a 2nd stage consensus family or somewhere abouts there, it seems that would create a natural withdrawl into oneself, anger, narcissism, etc. and other 'negative' attributes that we may think of when we think of first house archetype.
The reason I am saying this is because sometimes I feel like I am hearing people throw out some words about 1st house people without thinking of the possible causes of the tendencies that they might have.
They are not inherent egomaniacs necessarily, there is a cause for that behavior that needs to be considered.
Pluto 11th - SN 1st - PPP 5th - NN 7th
Re-do for CONSENSUS state
Rad's quote: If you feel like it see if you can come up with an EA analysis that would apply to the Consensus State.
The Soul in the Consensus evolutionary condition identifies with the mainstream of her society, culture and country. Her orientation to reality is an extension of the conditioning patterns of the consensus, and she cannot go outside of the box until she exhausts all desires in this evolutionary state. The root desire that propels her Soul forward in the Consensus is the desire to "˜get ahead' of the system. Her reaction in this condition will be oriented to the past, or showing some ambivalence to social change.
In the Consensus state, the archetype of deconditioning and liberation still operates. However the 11th house archetype can be quite antithetical to the Saturnian Consensus evolutionary condition. Her 11th house Pluto has been liberating and breaking her free from conditioning patterns by cyclically shattering her conditioned sense of identity thus allowing her to get just that little bit closer to her essential nature, or authentic unconditioned self....but this is a very long and slow process, filled with resistance, fear, trauma, the unwillingness to change, or to embrace progressive growth.
Being in the Consensus evolutionary condition means general resistance to the 11th house deconditioning impulse because it creates social insecurity within her. She does not readily experience the joy of just being "free" but is bound by cultural and societal conditionings. All her life her subconscious or higher mind had been suppressed. Since the 11th house Pluto archetypal impulse is to become aware of the "unknown," then her safe and secure definitions of reality could become shattered by traumatic events. The degree of resistance equals the degree of trauma necessary to free up the suppressive tendency.
This deconditioning process works throughout her life in a unique way via the South Node in the 1st house where she experiences the urge to take new directions in an instinctive and spontaneous way. These impulses are usually suppressed as they threaten her security patterns. Therefore she experiences periods of deep depression due to squashing the 1st house impulses. The impulse for freedom appears to be quite "irrational" and causes insecurity because of her cautious Consensus view of reality - so moving forward is not an easy process.
Her 11th house Pluto subconscious contains that which she is suppressing (due to the Consensus conditionings); suppression of her instinctual feelings and desires (1st); suppression of sexuality in general (1st); and, suppression of a homosexual tendency (11th). Not acting on these natural urges or impulses would lead to depression, futility and withdrawal"¦and to deep anger (1st house). She has the choice to either "suppress" or "to act."
She would cyclically experience immense "release" of what has been suppressed, due to the archetype of liberation. Through objective observation and awareness, she learns that whenever she has the "courage" (1st) to decondition herself in any way, that this allows her to get in touch with her innate qualities of intelligence, brilliance, innovation, ingeniousness, and outstanding abilities - and thus to experiment and transform her identity (1st). But due to these abilities she is usually judged harshly by her society. When tradition is threatened, the sense of security is also threatened. Therefore, she has learned that it takes acts of courage to be different, and these can result in periods of "aloneness" (1st).
An example of how the 5th house Pluto polarity point can manifest via the 7th house NN is through working with children: by implementing new types of programs on how to work with or raise children, and acting in a leadership (1st) or counseling role (7th) to "pioneer" these programs (1st) in the community. Through her natal 11th house Pluto she would encourage the expression of uniqueness and creativity within individual children (5th). In a role such as this she would feel she had something special or unique to contribute to society.
Her desire nature (1st) would lead to the forming of relationships (7th) in which she would learn new ways of relating to others, by learning to "listen" to the other so as to identify their reality, so as to be able to give them what they truly need, and not what she thinks they need from within her own self-reference (5th). The core narcissism of the 1st house SN needs to be purged by learning that she is an equal among others (7th), and that by learning to give, and not just take, she will learn the fundamental lesson of equality in relationships.
Hi Rad and all,
I am ready for the next paradigm whenever it is posted. I haven't gone to the extent of analysis of each evolutionary stage, and would rather not now since I am at maximum capacity with one thing at a time.
Of course, will gladly wait and learn if others are going to be looking at the other evo stages.
Heather
Echoing Sunyata's comments, I have also been wondering if there isn't also sometimes a positive interpretation of that south node.
I have also been thinking about other possible scenarios for the 1st house/11th house interpretation: that the 1st house south node person withdrew into themselves because of 11th house events/traumas, or a desire to separate from the pack, etc. because it was squelching the person's individuality or "progress".
Hi bluesky and sunyata,
It is simply necessary to understand the nature of the archetypes in order to understand how and why they manifest the way that they do. In the first house or Aries there is a NECESSARY NARCISSISM. So, why is that ? It is because Aries, and the first house, correlate with a new evolutionary cycle of becoming: that which has not occurred before. Because of this evolutionary development the Soul necessarily requires independence and freedom in order to act upon the impulses and desires within it so as to discover what this new evolutionary cycle is about. As a result of this necessary freedom and independence that equal the discovery of what this new evolutionary cycle is about requires a core self focus: narcissism. This is necessary within this archetype. It simply is what is for what it is. The 'judgments' of negative or positive are not necessary by anyone. It simply is what is.
In the paradigm that we are working with the 11th House Pluto will feel different no matter what it's evolutionary condition is. Different from the entire group of people, it's peers, and the society of birth. When this is then combined with the S.Node in the 1st House this feeling of being different then ignites the the core narcissism that is required in order to step back from that peer group, society, in order to initiate whatever experiences the Soul feels instinctively drawn to initiate in order to discover what that feeling of being different is about.
One of the beauties of EA, to me, is to be able to see things just as they are, and for the reasons that they are without projecting judgments of negative or positive. In this way we can then truly help those that come to us for counseling and understanding. So in the paradigm that we are working with the Pluto in the 11th and the S.Node in the 1st simply correlates to where the Soul has been, and why. It correlates to their own unique evolutionary process, and the reasons for that process.
God Bless, Rad
Hi Linda,
I will get to your updated analysis tomorrow. Am very busy and running a bit behind at the moment.
God Bless, Rad
Quote from: Rad on Nov 18, 2010, 02:45 PM
One of the beauties of EA, to me, is to be able to see things just as they are, and for the reasons that they are without projecting judgments of negative or positive. In this way we can then truly help those that come to us for counseling and understanding. So in the paradigm that we are working with the Pluto in the 11th and the S.Node in the 1st simply correlates to where the Soul has been, and why. It correlates to their own unique evolutionary process, and the reasons for that process.
God Bless, Rad
Simply beautiful....
Thank You.
Hi Rad,
A few questions:
1) JWG writes: "they have been learning to view themselves outside the confines of time and space." Could you elaborate on this statement? I know that "time" is referring to the evolution that occurs from the 10th to the 11th, but I am not sure I understand exactly what that means - how that would manifest in a person's life or in the self-understanding.
2) Re: Consensus expression of this archetype (11th Pluto/1st SN). I am thinking of someone who has to sew their wild oats before settling down in some way into a more mainstream expression/lifestyle. In this example I am thinking of someone who very much feels themselves to be a part of their community/group, but they need and take leeway to do their own thing until eventually settling into a more "normal" life.
Another possibility is someone who has unique interests that fall outside the mainstream, but whose understanding of these interests is limited by evolutionary state (example: someone who reads a lot about some spiritual tradition; I met someone recently who reads a lot about Taoism, as an example). While this person's understanding of these unique interests might be limited, nevertheless, the interests help to move the person along, evolutionarily. Another possible expression of this example would be that these unique interests in some way help the person advance their positioning in society or help them to feel, at an ego level, that they are special. And this feeling serves their needs at this time.
3) Linda addresses the possibility of this archetype resulting in the slow exhaustion of identity identification (with trauma as a vehicle for this advancement). I am wondering if this will always be part of the operation of this combination of archetypes...?
Peace and much gratitude,
Ellen
Hi Rad,
One final question: I remember a documentary about Teddy Roosevelt. At some point in his political life, I believe, he travelled abroad. In the documentary, someone recollecting that moment in his life commented on how he came back a different person, as though he were now a citizen of the world (after that trip), rather than just a citizen of the United States. He had grown. I am wondering if this is what is meant by "standing outside of time and space." I am also wondering what evolutionary state this example of Teddy Roosevelt represents. And then finally, how this might occur differently at different evolutionary states. For spiritual, perhaps, an orientation that is more and more centered in the divine than in humanity...?
Thank you,
Ellen
Hi Linda,
Thanks for making the effort to adjust your analysis to fit the consensus state. Please see below.
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Quote from: Linda on Nov 17, 2010, 10:35 PM
Pluto 11th - SN 1st - PPP 5th - NN 7th
Re-do for CONSENSUS state
Rad's quote: If you feel like it see if you can come up with an EA analysis that would apply to the Consensus State.
The Soul in the Consensus evolutionary condition identifies with the mainstream of her society, culture and country. Her orientation to reality is an extension of the conditioning patterns of the consensus, and she cannot go outside of the box until she exhausts all desires in this evolutionary state. The root desire that propels her Soul forward in the Consensus is the desire to "˜get ahead' of the system. Her reaction in this condition will be oriented to the past, or showing some ambivalence to social change.
In the Consensus state, the archetype of deconditioning and liberation still operates. However the 11th house archetype can be quite antithetical to the Saturnian Consensus evolutionary condition. Her 11th house Pluto has been liberating and breaking her free from conditioning patterns by cyclically shattering her conditioned sense of identity thus allowing her to get just that little bit closer to her essential nature, or authentic unconditioned self....but this is a very long and slow process, filled with resistance, fear, trauma, the unwillingness to change, or to embrace progressive growth.
Being in the Consensus evolutionary condition means general resistance to the 11th house deconditioning impulse because it creates social insecurity within her. She does not readily experience the joy of just being "free" but is bound by cultural and societal conditionings. All her life her subconscious or higher mind had been suppressed. Since the 11th house Pluto archetypal impulse is to become aware of the "unknown," then her safe and secure definitions of reality could become shattered by traumatic events. The degree of resistance equals the degree of trauma necessary to free up the suppressive tendency.
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This is not so. With the S.Node in the 1st House this Soul would in fact have an instinctual nature that gravitated to many activities, within the context of the consensus, that allowed it discover it's own unique, 11th House Pluto, identity relative to those activities. An example of this could manifest as a Soul who either joined, or became a leader of by starting, a group of people who were bonded by a sense of social purpose that was formed to benefit others in the overall society in some way. The S.Node in the 1st is not a symbol that will correlate with 'suppressing' anything. It is about the Soul giving itself an essential freedom to explore whatever desires manifest within it, it's evolutionary context or state, so that the Soul can then actualize it's inherent feeling of being different even within the consensus state. The consensus of the society that the Soul is within may judge this Soul as being 'eccentric', but that judgment would occur relative to activities within the consensus that are 'normal' relative to the parameters of consensus reality. This Soul then would discover, the S.Node in the 1st, who it is in the context of the consensus, the society of birth, relative to such 'eccentric' activities and behaviors. Your analysis that only trauma is that which will cause this Soul to evolve is just not correct.
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This deconditioning process works throughout her life in a unique way via the South Node in the 1st house where she experiences the urge to take new directions in an instinctive and spontaneous way. These impulses are usually suppressed as they threaten her security patterns. Therefore she experiences periods of deep depression due to squashing the 1st house impulses. The impulse for freedom appears to be quite "irrational" and causes insecurity because of her cautious Consensus view of reality - so moving forward is not an easy process.
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These urges are not suppressed. It seems what you are doing Linda is correlating the consensus state as causing this Soul to suppress. This is not the cause here. The Soul will indeed orientate to activities caused by it's own desires to 'individuate' in the context of the consensus that are socially acceptable to that consensus.
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Her 11th house Pluto subconscious contains that which she is suppressing (due to the Consensus conditionings); suppression of her instinctual feelings and desires (1st); suppression of sexuality in general (1st); and, suppression of a homosexual tendency (11th). Not acting on these natural urges or impulses would lead to depression, futility and withdrawal"¦and to deep anger (1st house). She has the choice to either "suppress" or "to act."
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Again, there is no suppression.
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She would cyclically experience immense "release" of what has been suppressed, due to the archetype of liberation. Through objective observation and awareness, she learns that whenever she has the "courage" (1st) to decondition herself in any way, that this allows her to get in touch with her innate qualities of intelligence, brilliance, innovation, ingeniousness, and outstanding abilities - and thus to experiment and transform her identity (1st). But due to these abilities she is usually judged harshly by her society. When tradition is threatened, the sense of security is also threatened. Therefore, she has learned that it takes acts of courage to be different, and these can result in periods of "aloneness" (1st).
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Again, this Soul will orientate to activities and behaviors that within the Consensus reality that allow this Soul to actualize that which is different within itself. Your analysis of doing things that would threaten society would fit a Soul in the individuated state: not the consensus.
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An example of how the 5th house Pluto polarity point can manifest via the 7th house NN is through working with children: by implementing new types of programs on how to work with or raise children, and acting in a leadership (1st) or counseling role (7th) to "pioneer" these programs (1st) in the community. Through her natal 11th house Pluto she would encourage the expression of uniqueness and creativity within individual children (5th). In a role such as this she would feel she had something special or unique to contribute to society.
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This is a very good analysis that could in fact occur that reflects what I have said above. The difference here is the polarity point which would mean to do such things WITHOUT BEING DEPENDANT ON THE GROUP ITSELF to do so because of the sense of security, 11th House Pluto, that the Soul has had in a group context. The polarity point here means to do such activities from within itself without the need to have the sense of group bonding providing for it's sense of personal security.
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Her desire nature (1st) would lead to the forming of relationships (7th) in which she would learn new ways of relating to others, by learning to "listen" to the other so as to identify their reality, so as to be able to give them what they truly need, and not what she thinks they need from within her own self-reference (5th). The core narcissism of the 1st house SN needs to be purged by learning that she is an equal among others (7th), and that by learning to give, and not just take, she will learn the fundamental lesson of equality in relationships.
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Yes.
God Bless, Rad
Hi Ellen,
Quote from: Ellen on Nov 19, 2010, 05:08 AM
Hi Rad,
A few questions:
1) JWG writes: "they have been learning to view themselves outside the confines of time and space." Could you elaborate on this statement? I know that "time" is referring to the evolution that occurs from the 10th to the 11th, but I am not sure I understand exactly what that means - how that would manifest in a person's life or in the self-understanding.
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You have only supplied one sentance of something that he wrote. I would need to see more of the context in which this sentance existed within to be able help us understand what he wrote. I would suspect that he must have been refering to one of the achetypes of the 11th House which is to totally detach from within itself, devoid of emotional content because of that detachment, so as to then 'objectify' the nature of things including time and space, and the Soul's experience of itself detached from that time and space.
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2) Re: Consensus expression of this archetype (11th Pluto/1st SN). I am thinking of someone who has to sew their wild oats before settling down in some way into a more mainstream expression/lifestyle. In this example I am thinking of someone who very much feels themselves to be a part of their community/group, but they need and take leeway to do their own thing until eventually settling into a more "normal" life.
Another possibility is someone who has unique interests that fall outside the mainstream, but whose understanding of these interests is limited by evolutionary state (example: someone who reads a lot about some spiritual tradition; I met someone recently who reads a lot about Taoism, as an example). While this person's understanding of these unique interests might be limited, nevertheless, the interests help to move the person along, evolutionarily. Another possible expression of this example would be that these unique interests in some way help the person advance their positioning in society or help them to feel, at an ego level, that they are special. And this feeling serves their needs at this time.
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Yes, this could be within the total spectrum of archetypal possiblities relative to the paradigm in question.
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3) Linda addresses the possibility of this archetype resulting in the slow exhaustion of identity identification (with trauma as a vehicle for this advancement). I am wondering if this will always be part of the operation of this combination of archetypes...?
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No. Trauma is not a requirement for the Soul's evolution to occur in the paradigm in question. It is a possiblity, but not a requirement.
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God Bless, Rad
Thank you Rad.
You said: It is about the Soul giving itself an essential freedom to explore whatever desires manifest within it, it's evolutionary context or state, so that the Soul can then actualize it's inherent feeling of being different even within the consensus state. The consensus of the society that the Soul is within may judge this Soul as being 'eccentric', but that judgment would occur relative to activities within the consensus that are 'normal' relative to the parameters of consensus reality.
It didn't make sense to me that since everyone CONFORMS to being the SAME in the Consensus, that the 11th house Pluto is "different" and yet the "same."
So you are clarifying that this individual will learn how it is "different" WITHIN the Consensus...and will be seen as "eccentric" by the Consensus. That the Consensus only describes the reality or parameters in which this individual expresses its uniqueness. I do understand that.
Let me know if this post belongs on this thread or if I should start a new thread.
About a day or two after we started this this particular practice chart Pluto in the 11th SN in the first, it just so happened that a person came to me with this same configuration. Synchronistic, I guess we could say. I was happy to have this support going on already as you might imagine.
Perhaps this real example of a real person might shed more understanding to us all and bring this particular practice chart more to life. And it is kind of ironic I should get this person within a couple days of this practice.
So this person I am working with is a male 44 years old who I knew well in my late teens and early 20's. He was a drummer in a rock band back then. I know he always felt a strong connection to me, a sort of kinship, but he would never really allow us to get romantically involved --it was more like he wanted to keep it "brotherly or sisterly" (maybe due to his Gemini of the 8th?? and my Mercury in his first house??, as an aside of course).
In fact, I had never known him to have a serious girlfriend, just attractions and flings here and there, and I do not believe he ever married. Although I am sure his sexual orientation is to woman. He was flirtatious, but does NOT seem to like to give of himself too much in relating (SN H1) NN Taurus H7, yet he had intensity, depth and charisma (SN H1 Scorpio w/ Moon Neptune conj.).
He now lives in LA and works in the music and movie industry and is fairly successful, but I believe he had dreams of making it to stardom ( would correlate with the PPP H5, combined with H1 SN special purpose), but what he does is actually work more behind the scenes in video and audio or movie set production (Scorpio, Neptune). He is single. I am not sure if he is in first stage individuated or third stage individuated. He is kind of reaching out to me and I can feel a more spiritual motivation there, so that tends to make me feel he might be in third?
His Pluto is in Virgo in the 11 opposition Saturn in the 5th -- and the SN is in SCORPIO in the first house conjunct Moon and Neptune.
I would like to write up my analysis on here while including the signs I just mentioned and the conjunction and the opposition, to get some feedback and perhpas ask my questions, to see if I am understanding his evolutionary intention correctly thus far.
This may be useful for the group, as well?
So moderators, is this okay because it is the same configuration Pluto 11/SN h1, or should I start another thread for this because of the additiona information of sign and planets --making this more complicated -- when the basis of this thread was "beginners" --thus would this be mmoving too far from the "keeping it simple" of this thread?
Thanks
Dhyana
birth data for this person is
June 1, 1966
at 522pm
in buffalo new york
Re: the discussion between Linda and Rad:
what is the difference between eccentric and individuated? I guess I had assumed that eccentric implied individuated ???
so Rad, you are saying that individuation within the consensus may give rise to behavior which is considered "eccentric" by the consensus, but not threatening the way individuated behavior (especially, say, 2nd individuated) may be seen by consensus folks?
Hope I have the right - but please feel free to clarify - thanks.
*****
I would like make an observation here - this is an interesting point Rad has brought up. I have seen instances of consensus folks "individuating" with the full support and approval of the environment around them - but this seems to be especially true if their individuating-within-consensus behavior will somehow enhance the immediate environment and the people in it in some way.
As opposed to people who are individuating in a seemingly threatening manner, and wind up becoming marginalized, etc. instead.
Rad's quotes:
The consensus of the society that the Soul is within may judge this Soul as being 'eccentric', but that judgment would occur relative to activities within the consensus that are 'normal' relative to the parameters of consensus reality.
Even in the 2nd Stage within the consensus such a Soul could still feel it has something different and unique to contribute. Remember one of the archetypal dimensions of the 11th house is of 'inventions.'
Rad,
Pluto 11th - SN 1st - PPP 5th - NN 7th
I've put together a condensed RE-DO in the Consensus evolutionary condition.
Consensus (2nd sub-stage): The Soul perceives there are others who have more than he has: more possessions of a grander nature, or social positions within society that he does not have. These perceptions fuel the root desire to get ahead and have more.
Core Soul intention (unconscious): To liberate, de-condition, objectify, detach, shed the skins of the past, join groups of like-mind for personal security.
Invention: To get ahead and have more, he could, for example, invent some contraption using his unique skills to make him more money. Within this 'normal' Consensus activity (ie inventing something to make more money), he could express his natural inventiveness, creativity, detachment and differentness. He could be labeled by his society, friends or groups as "eccentric" but accepted nevertheless, for his inventive nature is not threatening, but provides a service or fulfills a need for the Consensus group. His invention, for example, could be a revolutionary new form of exercise equipment (SN 1st). His motto: "I did it my way."
Within what PARAMETERS does he actualize his invention? It would be within the parameters of the prevailing Consensus reality: values, customs, norms, rights, wrongs, rules, regulations, and what is required for his ambition to be actualized. He would completely conform with the Saturnian consensus reality by adhering to all the rules. For example, he would need to apply for a patent for his design.
It is possible that he could resist the rules and regulations (the "rebel"), or omit to follow the proper procedures. In this case, he could suffer fines, rejection, shocks and trauma, forcing him to change and to conform to the prevailing Consensus values.
Groups of like-mind: Through the process of actualizing his invention, he would attract others in the same industry. This could lead him to initiate the formation of a group of like-minded people (11th), where he acts as leader (1st). Examples could be a gym or health club, sitting on the committee, etc. His group of people would have the same values as he does, narcissistic, overtly sexual types, etc. (1st)
Sexual attractions/Marriage/Children: Within his group of friends or associates, he meets many people, has magnetic attractions and sexual adventures (1st). This group bonding gives him a sense of personal security (11th). These adventures eventually lead to a major "relationship" (still within the codes and values of the Consensus) which then leads to a formal "marriage" (7th) which bears children (5th).
Lessons in relationships: With his partner, he learns new relationship patterns: how to give, how to receive, when to give, when not to give, and how to listen to the reality of his partner in order to give to her according to her reality (7th). He encourages the uniqueness and creativity within his own children (5th).
In order to provide for his family, he learns to take charge of his own life by translating his innovative ideas into action through his free will. He undertakes these activities from within himself without the need to have the sense of group bonding that provided for his sense of personal security.
~~~
Could you please confirm that this exercise is accurate. It seems there are quite a few of us who are having difficulty, but are just beginning to grasp how this paradigm could play out in the Consensus state.
Thank you Rad for your review of my work.
Quote from: bluesky on Nov 19, 2010, 05:41 PM
Re: the discussion between Linda and Rad:
what is the difference between eccentric and individuated? I guess I had assumed that eccentric implied individuated ???
so Rad, you are saying that individuation within the consensus may give rise to behavior which is considered "eccentric" by the consensus, but not threatening the way individuated behavior (especially, say, 2nd individuated) may be seen by consensus folks?
Hi bluesky,
This has been a question for me, too, and I am looking forward to Rad's response. After reading Linda and Rad's exchange, and then reading your question, I wondered if the answer is that the very being of this person, being consensus, simply would not be experienced as a threat, ie, there is no vibe coming from this person that is in fact threatening to consensus reality because this Soul IS consensus. Thus the consensus will tolerate this person's eccentricity and not see it as a reason to reject her/him. And perhaps even they will see this person's eccentricity as reflecting back in a positive way about them....? (Oh, I just read what you wrote below...Seems we're on the same track...) Rad, could you affirm or correct what I've written.
Hope I have the right - but please feel free to clarify - thanks.
*****
I would like make an observation here - this is an interesting point Rad has brought up. I have seen instances of consensus folks "individuating" with the full support and approval of the environment around them - but this seems to be especially true if their individuating-within-consensus behavior will somehow enhance the immediate environment and the people in it in some way.
As opposed to people who are individuating in a seemingly threatening manner, and wind up becoming marginalized, etc. instead.
Hi Dhyana,
No, this is not the thread to introduce people's charts. This is a practice thread, and at this point, want to keep it as simple as possible: just natal Pluto, the S.Node, Pluto's polarity point, and the N.Node. When you start adding other symbols this will of course determine how the specific archetypes manifest: the individuation of the archetypes themselves. At this point I don't want to do that yet because, after all, this is for beginners to grasp the fundamentals first.
God Bless, Rad
Hi bluesky,
Quote from: bluesky on Nov 19, 2010, 05:41 PM
Re: the discussion between Linda and Rad:
what is the difference between eccentric and individuated? I guess I had assumed that eccentric implied individuated ???
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It would appear so.
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so Rad, you are saying that individuation within the consensus may give rise to behavior which is considered "eccentric" by the consensus, but not threatening the way individuated behavior (especially, say, 2nd individuated) may be seen by consensus folks?
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Yes.
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>
God Bless, Rad
Hi Linda,
YOU HAVE IS EXACTLY RIGHT NOW ........... HIGH FIVES.
God Bless, Rad
Hi Ellen,
"This has been a question for me, too, and I am looking forward to Rad's response. After reading Linda and Rad's exchange, and then reading your question, I wondered if the answer is that the very being of this person, being consensus, simply would not be experienced as a threat, ie, there is no vibe coming from this person that is in fact threatening to consensus reality because this Soul IS consensus. Thus the consensus will tolerate this person's eccentricity and not see it as a reason to reject her/him. And perhaps even they will see this person's eccentricity as reflecting back in a positive way about them....? (Oh, I just read what you wrote below...Seems we're on the same track...) Rad, could you affirm or correct what I've written."
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This is exactly right ...............
God Bless, Rad
Hi Ellen,
This thread is for practice charts and I would like to keep it that way. Again, the sentence you have taken from JWG has not context around it. It is just a sentence detached, 11th House !!, from it's context. I responded before to what I thought he may have meant.
Briefly: Teddy Roosevelt also had an 11th House Pluto. It is actually pretty amazing of how many of the presidents of the USA have had that. But it also makes perfect sense: a 3rd Stage consensus Soul who detaches from society in order to objectify it, then, in so doing, determines what that society needs to move forwards. In his case, and in his time, he realized that the tycoons and corporations of that time needed massive government intervention in order to regulate their activities. And, in so doing, to recreate American itself so that the common person had a more fair economic shake. It was revolutionary at that time: 11th House Pluto. He was in fact perceived by others in general as being 'eccentric' because of his rugged individuality manifesting in all kinds of ways. He did travel to other places in the world. And that of course expanded his own inner horizons of awareness as to the 'human condition'. This, of course, would happen to almost anyone who does travel to other places. He was totally dedicated to preserving as much of Nature as he could as well: his Venus was in Sagittarius. And, thus, he was responsible to getting all kinds of laws past, for the first time, 11th House Pluto, that tried to protect Nature in the U.S.A. He established all kinds of National Parks that preserved Nature. These were all brand new and innovative ideas at that time. His main focus was to help the 'common person': the normal families of America. His S.Node was in the 4th in Virgo, his N.Node in Pisces in the 10th. This is reinforced by his Cancer Moon in the 2nd, and it's opposition to his 8th House Mars, the lower octave of Pluto, in Capricorn in the 8th. His creating brand new economic regulations and laws that reigned in the tycoons and corporations of that time was revolutionary.
God Bless, Rad
Hi Rad,
Thanks so much for your replies. I posted my question about Teddy Roosevelt before you had a chance to respond to my first question. I appreciate your desire to keep this thread bare bones for beginners and so I especially appreciate the information you shared about Roosevelt's life. I had only meant it (bringing his life up as an example) as a way to see if I was understanding that fragment.... Here's the entire paragraph surrounding that fragment from JWG's book (p. 199):
"As a result ["of learning to liberate themselves from the shackles of the past"], these individuals have needed to reject any situation that arbitrarily defines them; that tells them who and what to be and how to act. By rebelling they have learned to deflect any external agent that has tried to limit or define them in any way that did not naturally resonate to what they felt they were or were trying to become. In this way, Eleventh House Pluto individuals have been learning how to remove themselves, to pull away from the mainstream of society. They have been learning to resist becoming shackled, conditioned or defined by the customs of society. In addition, they have been learning to view themselves outside the confines of time and space and thereby have developed a sense of objectivity and detachment. It is as if the have learned to stand on the sidelines of human activity, viewing themselves and others from afar Because of this, they are disconnected from the bondage of any forms of national or cultural identity."
I struggle with the notion of "standing outside of time". I get learning to remove oneself from cultural context/conditioning and thus to stand outside of that - to see it and relate to it in an objective manner. But I have a hard time understanding the objectivity from a "time" perspective...?
Hope this contextualizes and clarifies my question.
Peace,
Ellen
Hi Ellen,
My answer would be the same as before:" I would suspect that he must have been refering to one of the achetypes of the 11th House which is to totally detach from within itself, devoid of emotional content because of that detachment, so as to then 'objectify' the nature of things including time and space, and the Soul's experience of itself detached from that time and space."
This does not, or would not mean, that time stops or that there is no time. I think you must be getting stuck on that in terms of you not understanding what he must have meant. It does mean that a Soul can so inwardly detach from within itself that there in no longer any reference to anything except that fact of consciousness itself, and the sense of individual identity within that consciousness. Thus, there 'appears' to be no time, or a sense of time.
God Bless, Rad
Quote from: Rad on Nov 20, 2010, 10:38 AM
Hi Ellen,
My answer would be the same as before:" I would suspect that he must have been refering to one of the achetypes of the 11th House which is to totally detach from within itself, devoid of emotional content because of that detachment, so as to then 'objectify' the nature of things including time and space, and the Soul's experience of itself detached from that time and space."
This does not, or would not mean, that time stops or that there is no time. I think you must be getting stuck on that in terms of you not understanding what he must have meant. It does mean that a Soul can so inwardly detach from within itself that there in no longer any reference to anything except that fact of consciousness itself, and the sense of individual identity within that consciousness. Thus, there 'appears' to be no time, or a sense of time.
God Bless, Rad
Hi Rad,
Is what you are saying essentially the "NOW"? - being in that moment?
Ellen
Hi Rad,
This is my attempt to understand this paradigm from a 1st Consensus perspective. I'm not at all sure I've gotten it, so before going onto 2nd Consensus and 3rd, I thought I should get your feedback.
1st Stage Consensus (Thanks, Linda, for the basic format of how to put this together"¦):
The 1st House Consensus person's primary desire is conforming to the prevailing cultural norms - to feel a sense of belonging. At this stage of development, ambition has not yet developed and the primary motivation is getting one's basic needs met. As a result, Souls at this stage of development tend to be the worker bees of society, working at the lower rungs of society, doing the grunt work that makes life possible for the rest of society.
Pluto in the 11th /1st House SN:
Even at this stage of development, the 11th House Pluto person, in prior lifetimes, will have learned to view society from an objective level. And, from this objective perspective, they will be naturally scanning their surroundings for ways to make it better. Linda and Rad talked about the inventiveness of the 11th house archetype, so it may be that the 1st stage Consensus person sees ways to improve the work functions (by inventing a technique or a device) at the level at which s/he is working, thus helping to improve the lives of those at her/his level. This person would see her/himself as very much a part of the collective in which s/he finds her/himself and the other members of the collective will embrace her/him as one of their own. Another way this archetype may express itself in 1st Consensus is through the individual's natural attunement to injustices. Perhaps the working conditions are poor. This individual may be a champion of the rights of her/his co-workers. The awareness of injustices may also be a primary trigger for evolutionary growth in that it would create the awareness that others have more than her/him and those at his level and thus create a desire to advance to this level - to attain these things for her/himself.
I am struggling to understand the leadership signatures of Aquarius/Aries in a 1st stage consensus individual. I am thinking of things like labor rights, but am wondering exactly what 1st stage consensus role would be given the leadership signatures. Would this person be a participant, sharing her/his ingenuity and inventiveness, contributing in that way. Or would s/he be a leader in this kind of struggle because of the leadership signatures and despite the 1st stage consensus situation?
Depending on other factors in the chart, these archetypes may play out in a dysfunctional way. In this situation, perhaps the individual will adopt eccentric identity after eccentric identity, trying to impress others but making no real inroads in terms of discovering an authentic identity. Thus, rather than being able to draw on her/his awareness to help improve the lot of her/his companions, s/he will simply be spinning her/his wheels. Ultimately, this may lead to the further distortions of anger and the desire to dominate others. But this all would play out within the context of Consensus reality, not outside it. (But I am having a hard time coming up with an example of how this may play out"¦.?)
5th House PPP/7th House NN
If the archetype is expressing in a constructive way, this person will be encountering others who will help her/him to facilitate her/his fullest creative expression. These others may encourage the person in actualizing her/his natural leadership abilities (as described above). Encountering these others will also help the person begin to zero in on just who s/he is (rather than continuing the process of instinctually initiating the exploration of new identities). Finally, within the context of relationship that these encounters actualize, this person will learn lessons of equality - of seeing and relating to the other as an equal - learning the art of genuine listening and learning to see a person for who s/he really is (rather than, perhaps, the romantic vision that an Aries SN might be tempted to see, ie, as the person to be rescued - the damsel in distress (thus demonstrating her/his own courage and worthiness). With NN in Libra, courage will be redefined as the challenge to relate to another as an equal and to express one's true self.
If dysfunctional expressions of 11th House Pluto/1st House SN reach the level of anger and the desire to dominate others, then the 5th House PPP/7th House NN will lead to shocks resulting from encounters with others who expect to be treated as equals. On the other hand, this person may attract others who do not wish to relate as equals, preferring instead dependent relationships. The chronic failure to tap into her/his own true creative potential as a result of this dysfunction will lead to inner shocks of awareness and realization of the dependency and dysfunction, prompting healing and growth.
Hi Ellen,
Good for you in trying to a apply this paradigm to the 1st Stage consensus. The value is in the effort. Please see below.
Quote from: Ellen on Nov 20, 2010, 11:49 AM
Hi Rad,
This is my attempt to understand this paradigm from a 1st Consensus perspective. I'm not at all sure I've gotten it, so before going onto 2nd Consensus and 3rd, I thought I should get your feedback.
1st Stage Consensus (Thanks, Linda, for the basic format of how to put this together"¦):
The 1st House Consensus person's primary desire is conforming to the prevailing cultural norms - to feel a sense of belonging. At this stage of development, ambition has not yet developed and the primary motivation is getting one's basic needs met. As a result, Souls at this stage of development tend to be the worker bees of society, working at the lower rungs of society, doing the grunt work that makes life possible for the rest of society.
Pluto in the 11th /1st House SN:
Even at this stage of development, the 11th House Pluto person, in prior lifetimes, will have learned to view society from an objective level. And, from this objective perspective, they will be naturally scanning their surroundings for ways to make it better. Linda and Rad talked about the inventiveness of the 11th house archetype, so it may be that the 1st stage Consensus person sees ways to improve the work functions (by inventing a technique or a device) at the level at which s/he is working, thus helping to improve the lives of those at her/his level. This person would see her/himself as very much a part of the collective in which s/he finds her/himself and the other members of the collective will embrace her/him as one of their own. Another way this archetype may express itself in 1st Consensus is through the individual's natural attunement to injustices. Perhaps the working conditions are poor. This individual may be a champion of the rights of her/his co-workers. The awareness of injustices may also be a primary trigger for evolutionary growth in that it would create the awareness that others have more than her/him and those at his level and thus create a desire to advance to this level - to attain these things for her/himself.
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Yes.
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I am struggling to understand the leadership signatures of Aquarius/Aries in a 1st stage consensus individual. I am thinking of things like labor rights, but am wondering exactly what 1st stage consensus role would be given the leadership signatures. Would this person be a participant, sharing her/his ingenuity and inventiveness, contributing in that way. Or would s/he be a leader in this kind of struggle because of the leadership signatures and despite the 1st stage consensus situation?
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The leadership archetype here is totally dependent on the actual conditions of the Souls life, and would be ignited relative to the overall conditions of the community of people in which the Soul was part of. For example, it could be a Soul living within a community somewhere in in Africa that had a need for another supply of water because it had run dry. Such a Soul in that context could then figure out, invent, another way of finding that water and getting it to it's community. Thus, the Soul would be seen as a leader because the Soul from within itself figured out how to do this. This example could be examples in countless ways. The point is that it is the actual conditions of the community of people in which this Soul is existing within, and what that community needs relative to what it lacks, that then becomes the causative factor for ignites this inventive capacity within this Soul, and the leadership capacity to make that happen.
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Depending on other factors in the chart, these archetypes may play out in a dysfunctional way. In this situation, perhaps the individual will adopt eccentric identity after eccentric identity, trying to impress others but making no real inroads in terms of discovering an authentic identity. Thus, rather than being able to draw on her/his awareness to help improve the lot of her/his companions, s/he will simply be spinning her/his wheels. Ultimately, this may lead to the further distortions of anger and the desire to dominate others. But this all would play out within the context of Consensus reality, not outside it. (But I am having a hard time coming up with an example of how this may play out"¦.?)
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You are having a hard time coming up with examples because it would not play out this way given the paradigm that we are working with, and only that paradigm. Even within the paradigm itself such a Soul would not be experimenting with trying on different eccentric identities just to try them out. And there is no inherent dysfunction within this paradigm at all.
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5th House PPP/7th House NN
If the archetype is expressing in a constructive way, this person will be encountering others who will help her/him to facilitate her/his fullest creative expression. These others may encourage the person in actualizing her/his natural leadership abilities (as described above). Encountering these others will also help the person begin to zero in on just who s/he is (rather than continuing the process of instinctually initiating the exploration of new identities). Finally, within the context of relationship that these encounters actualize, this person will learn lessons of equality - of seeing and relating to the other as an equal - learning the art of genuine listening and learning to see a person for who s/he really is (rather than, perhaps, the romantic vision that an Aries SN might be tempted to see, ie, as the person to be rescued - the damsel in distress (thus demonstrating her/his own courage and worthiness). With NN in Libra, courage will be redefined as the challenge to relate to another as an equal and to express one's true self.
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Again, there simply isn't any process of instinctually initiating the exploration of identities at this level of evolution. At this level of evolution this would be a Soul who found their own unique role within the community in which they lived, and their entire sense of identity would be defined by that role. With the S.Node in the 1st this could also equal a natural loner, not wanting to be married for example, in that community. Of itself this would then create a real sense of being 'different' in that community given that most people do marry at some point no matter where they live, or what cultural contexts that a Soul lives within. This creates a Soul that is a member of that community, but a member in that community that is standing on the outside looking in.
The N.Node then directly correlates to new step in this Souls evolution: to enter the arena marriage to another. And in this way all those 7th House, Libra, type lessons then would exist. The 5th House polarity would then of course correlate with having children which expands upon the lessons within the 7th House. As these lessons occur this will then evolve the Soul's orientation to it's community as well. The Soul will evolve from being a member of it's community who is essentially standing on the outside of it, yet wanting to help it by way of what that community needs, to becoming a member within it who has now embraced its total reality because of living within it: the opposite of standing on the outside looking in.
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If dysfunctional expressions of 11th House Pluto/1st House SN reach the level of anger and the desire to dominate others, then the 5th House PPP/7th House NN will lead to shocks resulting from encounters with others who expect to be treated as equals. On the other hand, this person may attract others who do not wish to relate as equals, preferring instead dependent relationships. The chronic failure to tap into her/his own true creative potential as a result of this dysfunction will lead to inner shocks of awareness and realization of the dependency and dysfunction, prompting healing and growth.
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Again, there is no inherent dysfunction in this paradigm. It is true that the Soul will encounter potential shock from others who want to be treated as equals. That shock would then of course enforce the Soul to objectify itself as to why such shocks are occurring in the first place. In that objectification the Soul could then learn what those 7th House lessons are all about, and then make choices that would allow those lessons to be embraced. Conversely, the Soul can of course resist these lessons. If so, then the Soul will remain as part of it's community, yet living on the outside of it looking in.
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God Bless, Rad
Hi Rad,
Thank you so much. A couple of brief follow up questions. See below in blue. (Addition: also, just below the red there is a question in bold following what you wrote in bold. For some reason the blue didn't take.)
Quote from: Rad on Nov 22, 2010, 08:45 AM
Hi Ellen,
Good for you in trying to a apply this paradigm to the 1st Stage consensus. The value is in the effort. Please see below.
Quote from: Ellen on Nov 20, 2010, 11:49 AM
Hi Rad,
This is my attempt to understand this paradigm from a 1st Consensus perspective. I'm not at all sure I've gotten it, so before going onto 2nd Consensus and 3rd, I thought I should get your feedback.
1st Stage Consensus (Thanks, Linda, for the basic format of how to put this together"¦):
The 1st House Consensus person's primary desire is conforming to the prevailing cultural norms - to feel a sense of belonging. At this stage of development, ambition has not yet developed and the primary motivation is getting one's basic needs met. As a result, Souls at this stage of development tend to be the worker bees of society, working at the lower rungs of society, doing the grunt work that makes life possible for the rest of society.
Pluto in the 11th /1st House SN:
Even at this stage of development, the 11th House Pluto person, in prior lifetimes, will have learned to view society from an objective level. And, from this objective perspective, they will be naturally scanning their surroundings for ways to make it better. Linda and Rad talked about the inventiveness of the 11th house archetype, so it may be that the 1st stage Consensus person sees ways to improve the work functions (by inventing a technique or a device) at the level at which s/he is working, thus helping to improve the lives of those at her/his level. This person would see her/himself as very much a part of the collective in which s/he finds her/himself and the other members of the collective will embrace her/him as one of their own. Another way this archetype may express itself in 1st Consensus is through the individual's natural attunement to injustices. Perhaps the working conditions are poor. This individual may be a champion of the rights of her/his co-workers. The awareness of injustices may also be a primary trigger for evolutionary growth in that it would create the awareness that others have more than her/him and those at his level and thus create a desire to advance to this level - to attain these things for her/himself.
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Yes.
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I am struggling to understand the leadership signatures of Aquarius/Aries in a 1st stage consensus individual. I am thinking of things like labor rights, but am wondering exactly what 1st stage consensus role would be given the leadership signatures. Would this person be a participant, sharing her/his ingenuity and inventiveness, contributing in that way. Or would s/he be a leader in this kind of struggle because of the leadership signatures and despite the 1st stage consensus situation?
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The leadership archetype here is totally dependent on the actual conditions of the Souls life, and would be ignited relative to the overall conditions of the community of people in which the Soul was part of. For example, it could be a Soul living within a community somewhere in in Africa that had a need for another supply of water because it had run dry. Such a Soul in that context could then figure out, invent, another way of finding that water and getting it to it's community. Thus, the Soul would be seen as a leader because the Soul from within itself figured out how to do this. This example could be examples in countless ways. The point is that it is the actual conditions of the community of people in which this Soul is existing within, and what that community needs relative to what it lacks, that then becomes the causative factor for ignites this inventive capacity within this Soul, and the leadership capacity to make that happen.
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Depending on other factors in the chart, these archetypes may play out in a dysfunctional way. In this situation, perhaps the individual will adopt eccentric identity after eccentric identity, trying to impress others but making no real inroads in terms of discovering an authentic identity. Thus, rather than being able to draw on her/his awareness to help improve the lot of her/his companions, s/he will simply be spinning her/his wheels. Ultimately, this may lead to the further distortions of anger and the desire to dominate others. But this all would play out within the context of Consensus reality, not outside it. (But I am having a hard time coming up with an example of how this may play out"¦.?)
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You are having a hard time coming up with examples because it would not play out this way given the paradigm that we are working with, and only that paradigm. Even within the paradigm itself such a Soul would not be experimenting with trying on different eccentric identities just to try them out. And there is no inherent dysfunction within this paradigm at all.
Rad, is this true at all evolutionary stages or just this one? Would experimenting with identities be a possibility for an Individuated Soul within this paradigm? Or does this paradigm not support such a reading at any evolutionary stage?
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5th House PPP/7th House NN
If the archetype is expressing in a constructive way, this person will be encountering others who will help her/him to facilitate her/his fullest creative expression. These others may encourage the person in actualizing her/his natural leadership abilities (as described above). Encountering these others will also help the person begin to zero in on just who s/he is (rather than continuing the process of instinctually initiating the exploration of new identities). Finally, within the context of relationship that these encounters actualize, this person will learn lessons of equality - of seeing and relating to the other as an equal - learning the art of genuine listening and learning to see a person for who s/he really is (rather than, perhaps, the romantic vision that an Aries SN might be tempted to see, ie, as the person to be rescued - the damsel in distress (thus demonstrating her/his own courage and worthiness). With NN in Libra, courage will be redefined as the challenge to relate to another as an equal and to express one's true self.
************************************************************
Again, there simply isn't any process of instinctually initiating the exploration of identities at this level of evolution.
>Is that the key here, ie, AT THIS LEVEL OF EVOLUTION?
Also, is there any validity to the part that I hightlighted in red?
At this level of evolution this would be a Soul who found their own unique role within the community in which they lived, and their entire sense of identity would be defined by that role.
So, rather than EXPERIMENTING with identity (which might happen in individuated????), this person would have a sense of identity that gave her/him a sense of special place in the community, but with the feeling of standing on the outside looking in....?
With the S.Node in the 1st this could also equal a natural loner, not wanting to be married for example, in that community. Of itself this would then create a real sense of being 'different' in that community given that most people do marry at some point no matter where they live, or what cultural contexts that a Soul lives within. This creates a Soul that is a member of that community, but a member in that community that is standing on the outside looking in.
The N.Node then directly correlates to new step in this Souls evolution: to enter the arena marriage to another. And in this way all those 7th House, Libra, type lessons then would exist. The 5th House polarity would then of course correlate with having children which expands upon the lessons within the 7th House. As these lessons occur this will then evolve the Soul's orientation to it's community as well. The Soul will evolve from being a member of it's community who is essentially standing on the outside of it, yet wanting to help it by way of what that community needs, to becoming a member within it who has now embraced its total reality because of living within it: the opposite of standing on the outside looking in.
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If dysfunctional expressions of 11th House Pluto/1st House SN reach the level of anger and the desire to dominate others, then the 5th House PPP/7th House NN will lead to shocks resulting from encounters with others who expect to be treated as equals. On the other hand, this person may attract others who do not wish to relate as equals, preferring instead dependent relationships. The chronic failure to tap into her/his own true creative potential as a result of this dysfunction will lead to inner shocks of awareness and realization of the dependency and dysfunction, prompting healing and growth.
**************************************************************************
Again, there is no inherent dysfunction in this paradigm. It is true that the Soul will encounter potential shock from others who want to be treated as equals. That shock would then of course enforce the Soul to objectify itself as to why such shocks are occurring in the first place. In that objectification the Soul could then learn what those 7th House lessons are all about, and then make choices that would allow those lessons to be embraced. Conversely, the Soul can of course resist these lessons. If so, then the Soul will remain as part of it's community, yet living on the outside of it looking in.
With regard to dysfunction, I don't mean to imply that it's inherent. But isn't it true that any paradigm can possibly play out dysfunctionally depending on circumstances? Or do I have that wrong..? I was just wanting to think about the paradigm from all perspectives, including positive and possible negative manifestations to better understand it. But perhaps some paradigms will not play out negatively?
With gratitude,
Ellen
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God Bless, Rad
Hi Ellen,
"Rad, is this true at all evolutionary stages or just this one? Would experimenting with identities be a possibility for an Individuated Soul within this paradigm? Or does this paradigm not support such a reading at any evolutionary stage?"
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This could begin to occur in some way towards the end of the 1st Stage Individuated, and then on into the 2nd Stage Individuated.
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"So, rather than EXPERIMENTING with identity (which might happen in individuated?Huh), this person would have a sense of identity that gave her/him a sense of special place in the community, but with the feeling of standing on the outside looking in....?"
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Yes
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"With regard to dysfunction, I don't mean to imply that it's inherent. But isn't it true that any paradigm can possibly play out dysfunctionally depending on circumstances? Or do I have that wrong..? I was just wanting to think about the paradigm from all perspectives, including positive and possible negative manifestations to better understand it. But perhaps some paradigms will not play out negatively?"
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I would suggest that we look at these paradigms simply from the point of view of the archetypes within them that do not need to be judged in a positive or negative way. The circumstances for any of us, at any level of evolution, are created by our Souls. Thus any potential dysfunction occurs from within the Soul, not the circumstances themselves because those circumstances would be a reflection of the dysfunction going on within the Soul itself.
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God Bless, Rad
Rad wrote:
I would suggest that we look at these paradigms simply from the point of view of the archetypes within them that do not need to be judged in a positive or negative way. The circumstances for any of us, at any level of evolution, are created by our Souls. Thus any potential dysfunction occurs from within the Soul, not the circumstances themselves because those circumstances would be a reflection of the dysfunction going on within the Soul itself.
Hi Rad,
Thank you again. With regard to your quote above, I have a lot to learn. I believe I understand what you are saying with regard to the Soul creating the circumstances it needs - so whether those circumstances are "positive" or "negative" isn't really the point or the question. The question is, what is the Soul needing to learn and why. Is this correct?
What I don't understand is how you can tell from the paradigm we're working with that Aries might not play out as dominant and Libra as codependent. Does this question make sense? How can we know, from the perspective of the assignment we are doing (ie, without observation and correlation) that those possibilities won't manifest or aren't at least a POSSIBLE manifestation?
Hope my question makes sense. And thanks for bearing with me.
Peace,
Ellen
Hi Ellen,
"Thank you again. With regard to your quote above, I have a lot to learn. I believe I understand what you are saying with regard to the Soul creating the circumstances it needs - so whether those circumstances are "positive" or "negative" isn't really the point or the question. The question is, what is the Soul needing to learn and why. Is this correct?"
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Yes.
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"What I don't understand is how you can tell from the paradigm we're working with that Aries might not play out as dominant and Libra as codependent. Does this question make sense? How can we know, from the perspective of the assignment we are doing (ie, without observation and correlation) that those possibilities won't manifest or aren't at least a POSSIBLE manifestation?"
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It is entirely possible for the S.Node in the 1st or Aries to be dominant not only in it's intimate relationships, but also in relating to people in general. With a variety of prior lives actualized through the 11th House Pluto, S.Node in the 1st, it would not be possible for the Soul to become DEPENDANT on another in the sense of being able to not function without another in the Soul's life. It is possible for this Soul to become co-dependent on an intimate other in the sense that that other is designed by this Soul to create objective feedback, and deliver necessary information, about the existing dynamics within this Soul that do need to evolve in the ways that this paradigm means. However, this still would not mean that this Soul could not live without that other, or others in general because of it's prior life orientations to reality.
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God Bless, Rad
Hi,
Let me know if all those who are participating in our beginner's practice charts are ready to move on to another one. The first response by those participating has been wonderful. So let me know.
God Bless, Rad
Ready. Heather
Rad's quote:
It is entirely possible for the S.Node in the 1st or Aries to be dominant not only in it's intimate relationships, but also in relating to people in general. With a variety of prior lives actualized through the 11th House Pluto, S.Node in the 1st, it would not be possible for the Soul to become DEPENDANT on another in the sense of being able to not function without another in the Soul's life. It is possible for this Soul to become co-dependent on an intimate other in the sense that that other is designed by this Soul to create objective feedback, and deliver necessary information, about the existing dynamics within this Soul that do need to evolve in the ways that this paradigm means. However, this still would not mean that this Soul could not live without that other, or others in general because of it's prior life orientations to reality.
Hi Rad,
One more follow up. And I'm sorry if I'm seeming or being obtuse here, but I just want to make sure I understand. With regard to the part that I highlighted in blue, this is so because of Aries alone, or because of both 11th house and Aries? I am thinking it is both: 11th house objectivity and 1st house need for freedom/independence. But I want to be sure.
Again, sorry to drag this out.
Peace,
Ellen
Ready after that one last question. Thanks for this opportunity, Rad. I feel so fortunate to be able to practice here and receive your feedback.
Peace,
Ellen
Hi Ellen,
Yes, it's the combination of the 11th House Pluto, S.Node in the Aries House. Don't worry about dragging things out: your have a deep and sincere desire to learn this stuff, and that is what I truly respond too.
God Bless, Rad
I'm ready too.
Just a reminder to please set the evolutionary condition. Or do we choose?
This is a great thread, and it's wonderful that you are helping us learn this paradigm from the ground up.
Thanks so much Rad.
Hi Rad
I am ready for a new try.
Thanks for the opportunity
God Bless
Mirta
Thanks Rad.
Peace,
Ellen
Hi,
Let me know if all those who are participating in our beginner's practice charts are ready to move on to another one. The first response by those participating has been wonderful. So let me know.
God Bless, Rad
p.s I am reposting this message to make sure all who want to participate see it. So far Linda, Mirta, Ellen want to continue.
I am interested.
I am ready to do the next one too.
Thanks
Dhyana
Hi Practice Group,
So it seems like it the right time to work with another paradigm. At this point I do not want to specify a specific evolutionary state. In our last paradigm I had not either yet it did lead to appropriate discussions about the difference between the individuated and the consensus states. And that was a great discussion to have.
So as we work with this next paradigm I am sure that issue will come up again, but it will come up spontaneously as a result of what is posted by all of you. And, for now, I would like to leave it that way. As we progress down the road our next step will be to add the planetary rulers of each of the Nodes.
So, for now, lets work with the following paradigm: Pluto is in 9th House, the S.Node will be in the 7th, the polarity point for Pluto of course being in the 3rd, and the N.Node in the 1st House.
So let's have a go of it.
God Bless, Rad
Hi Rad,
This is what I've come up with so far...
Pluto in the 9th
The Soul with Pluto in the 9th will come into this life with an intuitive sense of the deeper cosmological reality underpinning phenomenological reality. In prior lives this Soul may have absorbed very deeply the customs of one particular culture or travelled far and wide, exposing herself to many beliefs and customs. In either case, in this lifetime, the Soul will experience a sense of alienation to a greater or lesser extent depending on how closely the culture she is born into mirrors her own sense of this larger reality that she has built up, through experience and study, in prior lifetimes. This sense of alienation will lead this Soul to continue her search for the truth. Depending on her evolutionary stage of development, this search will take her towards the study of religious doctrine (consensus), free-thinking (individuated), or spiritual truths (spiritual).
SN in Libra
With the SN in Libra, this Soul, in prior lifetimes, has engaged with others in one-to-one encounters in her quest for the truth. Whether she consciously sought out these encounters for the purposes of comparing and contrasting, or whether these encounters "happened" to her, forcing her to expand her perspective, in either case the purpose of these encounters was to do just that - expand her perspective. With SN in Libra, it has been through the encounter with "the other" (whether a person or a belief system), that she has experienced repeated challenges to her existing world view, and thus repeated cycles of insecurity leading to the need to synthesize what she has encountered into a new, harmonious, expanded framework for understanding and explaining reality. Depending on her evolutionary stage of development, this expanded framework will be religious, intellectual or spiritual. At the consensus level of development, there will be a desire to convert others to this new found understanding.
PPP in the 3rd House
While this Soul has a well-developed intuitive sense of the universe, in this lifetime she is needing to learn how to communicate this sense to others in a way that they can understand. Inevitably she will meet resistance to her understanding until she learns to communicate it in a way that others can understand. This resistance may come from her immediate environment, including siblings and local community. In order to successfully learn this lesson, she will need to take in all kinds of new information, collating this with already well-developed intuitive sense, thus creating for herself a means of articulating what she already knows in a way that others can appreciate and understand. At the consensus level of development, she will most likely communicate in a way that is meant to convert others to her point of view. At the individuated level, she will communicate in a way that is meant to free others to think for themselves. At the spiritual level, her means of communication will be designed to help the other realize her true nature.
NN in the 1st House
The way that this Soul will go about searching for new information of all kinds will be by actively and instinctually following her intuitive sense of what information to pursue. She will not know why she is pursuing a particular path or piece of information, driven as she is by the past (trine to Pluto); she will just know within herself that she must. The information and paths she pursues will not be the tried and true; rather her quest will be the information at the cutting edge of thought (according to her evolutionary stage of development). Going along in this way, she may eventually find herself the teacher of a new paradigm of thought. At the level of consensus development, this new paradigm in thought will be religious in nature. At the individuated level, it will be intellectual in nature. At the spiritual level, it will be spiritual, or transcendant, in nature.
Pluto in the 9th house
SN in the 7th
The core evolutionary desires that proceeded this lifetime for the Pluto in the 9th was to understand it's own place within the world or universe in which they find themself. The way this may have been done is via osmosing (Pluto) various beliefs systems, cultural morals or laws, intellectual theories, and various philosophies in order to form and identify meaning and purpose in life. This is how they derive a sense of security.
Typically, a Pluto in the 9th house soul base their very security on what they believe - Any philosophy, be it religious, cultural, intellectual, legal or spiritual or even atheistic - ANY belief system that can explain who they are, why they are, and where they find themselves, within the greater scheme of things, may be obsessively clung to with Pluto in the 9th. Again, holding to these views will keep them feeling secure and give their life some kind of meaning.
This may also describe a soul that has been exposed to many cultures and settings world wide, and therefore has widened their exposure to life in general and the laws and systems of many different places, hence an inner pull to continue on opening up their world view. Thus, they may feel stifled in the land they are born into, since the soul already knows there is so much more out there. This can result in sort of restlessness and an obsessive kind of seeking and searching for new horizons. They may travel literally, or via study of other cultures/beliefs/philosophies etc.
On the other hand, this can also play out in a different direction
-Let me try to clarify
-They may feel like the culture/ land they are born into is quite foreign to them, and they would like to feel the security of belonging --hence they may obsessively seek out ways to feel secure within the culture they find themselves --Such as learning as much as they can about the laws, rules, morals, customs, and beliefs of the place they find themselves, and molding them self into that structure/system/religion/culture, thus, becoming even more narrow in their views as a way of maintaining safety and security in the land/culture they find themself. Thus they may feel more secure staying put there and avoid altogether opening (in mind or literal travel) to different cultures/beliefs/philosophies etc. (Rad, is this paragraph accurate? Or would there have to be other factors for this to be accurate?)
Either way, the motivating force for all of this mentioned is
the same; Belief=Security. The motivation is also quite unconscious (Pluto).
The core intention of the soul with Pluto in the 9th is to evolve and free up tightly held patterns in the area BELIEF.
At the freest, clearest or most high level for the Pluto in the 9th soul -what the soul is ultimately working towards, is understanding and living Natural Law! This ultimately will be the release of all beliefs altogether. For Natural Law would be grokked so fully, that belief of any kind is no longer necessary. Natural Law is ultimately True security and it does not require belief. Nature is Trustworthy. It is self evident and needs no philosophical system held in mind to be what it is. It simply demonstrates itself to life as itself naturally without belief of any kind.
Until the 9th house Pluto soul recognizes this on all levels of being, they will unconsciously be pulled towards, and proceed through various belief systems, religious systems, cultural systems, philosophies, legal systems and personal theories --Ranging from the most dense moving towards less dense as according to evolutionary condition. --Always obsessively seeking a security that cannot actually ever be found, eventually leading to Natural Law fully embraced and lived.
Throughout the evolutionary journey, the Pluto in the 9th house soul will encounter power struggles and wounding or crisis/trauma in this area. These power struggles are designed to shake the soul free from the shackles of belief according to their current evolutionary stage, in order for evolution to occur.
Some ways the traumas and power struggles can occur are;
They can experience a core alienation relative to their country and culture and origin.
They may have intense belief system confrontations with others, or a society in which their beliefs are fundamentally at odds, or contradictory to the beliefs of most others. They can experience intense violations of truth, honesty, and the principle of justice, relative to the truth of any given situation.
When these cataclysmic life events occur it is meant to force them to examine the nature of their beliefs and underlying principles that generated those beliefs.
SN in the 7th House.
The mode of operation or the life roles that this Pluto in the 9th dynamic will play out is via the South Node of the Moon in the 7th house. The roles this soul has taken on in the past were in the area of one to one relating and learning the lessons of balance in relating. When we see a 7th house SN we know that the person has a habit of realting to other, at the expense of themselves. There is a sort of addiction to the other that has become imbalanced. We also know that the House 1/House 7 axis is one of extremes. So we can conclude that the relationship with "other" has become extreme an over dependent. With the 9th house Pluto being the core motivation, and this SN in the 7th, we can offer a couple scenarios as far as the roles this individual has been habitually playing out;
--This person may find themselves habituated to heavy reliance on others to provide themselves with a philosophy to live by (Pluto 9/ SN7). This individual may take on the beliefs of their partners, or any one they idealize, as knowing more than they do when it comes to the themes of the 9th house - ie. what to believe in". They may have lost touch with their own inner intuition, seeing that intuition is natural to the 9th house, due to the habit of relying too heavily on the beliefs of others over time. This person may acquiesce too often to others beliefs and deny their own truth as well.
Another scenario could be that this individual could be habituated to shoving their beliefs that were acquired for security, down others people's throats, so to speak. THey can try to convert those significant others in their life to beleive as they do in order to keep the co-dependecy going, but in this way they are causing the other to be dependent on them (unconsciously of course). They can be very preachy towards others in general. In significant relationship they will have power struggles and intense conflicts and confrontations which get ignited whenever their beliefs are threatened by significant others.
The next step in the evolutionary involvement of this soul correlates to the Pluto Polarity Point in the 3rd house. This would be more like slowing down the in the seeking mechanism, and opening up and enjoying the current environment in it's full variety. Seeing that others have a variety of views and opinions and that this is okay - it is part of a discovery process (Gemini). They can begin to gather more facts and data regarding what they believe to be true and exercise logical thought, rather than continuing on with their over generalized theoretical stances.
The way this can be facilitated is through the North Node in the first house. What this means is that this soul need to get in touch with the their Aries nature (1st house), which is pre-thought therefore, in this case, with a 9th house Pluto, pre-beleif! What does this individual know for themselves and them self alone? WHat do their INSTINCTS tell them about what is true? Where are they individually and instinctively driven to discover more about what is true? They can follow their OWN lead! Basically this individual will need to begin the journey of self reliance and self discovery of their own truths. In turn, this will ignite their sense of selfhood -- get them in touch with what they believe, what they feel is true, which will not based on the opinions of others. -- And the go persue it! With practice, they will come to feel more secure within themself --no longer relying or addicted to the counsel of other. And hence, as they become more secure with themselves --get to know their own truth, they will be able to open to that 3rd house PPP--
-- really just being in the environment they find themselves, without feeling threatened by the diversity and variety. This way they can begin to communicate (3rd house) with others in a way that is more relaxed, more relevant to the surroundings and hence offer themselves, according to what other factors we find in the chart, to their current eviornment within it's own context.
They will find they can use the tool of their logical mind more freely in the spirit of discovery, without feeling the threat to their aquired beliefs. They may find themself communicating their truth, within the context of their evolutionary stage, without the compulsion to preach. This will make whatever communication they offer, much more accepted by those in their current surroundings.
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As an aside- I want to thank you for this particular signature--
I was able to unravel even more subtle layers for my self (even though the Pluto and SN are in reversed houses). Truly, such a Gift, I am greatful.
From The Heart,
Dhyana
Aspects
Pluto Sextile SN
The feelings of alienation that this Soul has felt in past lives has created the opportunity for encounters with others that have been meant to facilitate the exploration of these feelings and thus have in turn opened up the opportunity for a more expansive search for meaning. The extent to which this Soul actively took advantage of these opportunities will have determined the quality of the relationships she became involved in and consequently how far she was able to "travel" in search of meaning.
PPP Trine SN
The information gathering that this Soul is prompted to do in this lifetime allows her to communicate what she intuitively knows, thus having a beneficial effect on her one-on-one relationships with others. Such an effect would in turn seem to have the effect of diminishing this Soul's deep feelings of alienation.
PPP Sextile NN
The opportunity here is for the information gathering propensities of the PPP and the instinctual search for self (for, Who am I) to work in a harmonious way such that the NN will instinctually seek out new information - information at the cutting edge of its awareness - and this instinctual search will provide the necessary information needed by the PPP to create the framework needed to evolve the Soul.
Pluto Trine NN
The intrinsic feelings of alienation experienced by the 9th House Pluto Soul will facilitate the instinctual search for meaning in the form of "Who am I?" that is represented by the 1st House NN. Thus the experiences of the past will trigger the evolutionary intent of this Soul in a harmonious way.
Hi Rad,
I just wanted to clarify something about the aspects with regard to waxing/waning. I'll list what I think. Could you let me know if I've got it right? (It is my understanding that even though the nodes travel retrograde, when determining aspects, you do so as if they were traveling direct. Is this correct? And if so, why?, ie, why not determine based on the actual retrograde motion??)
Pluto/SN = waning sextile
Pluto/NN = waxing trine
PPP/SN = waxing trine (can you do this - determine aspects from the PPP?)
PPP/NN = waning sextile
Thank you,
Ellen
Addition: after reading Ari's post on the sesquiquadrate thread in which he identifies a 2nd House Pluto in gibbous phase sesquiquadrate to 9th House NN, it is clear I've gotten the above mixed up. So:
Pluto/SN = WAXING sextile
Pluto/NN = WANING trine
PPP/SN = WANING trine
PPP/NN = WAXING sextile
Correct?
Ellen
Hi Rad
Here is my effort. I am trying to better adapt to EA format (and reasoning, of course).
I appreciate your additional work of understanding.
This practice is very stimulating for me. Thanks.
Pluto in 9th,SN in 7th, NN in 1st
General understanding
This Soul comes with a desire and evolutionary need of understanding life and herself in a philosophical, cosmological or religious way.
She has needed, and still needs, to understand and explain the link, the relationship with the universe and with a level of reality that transcends the empirical.
Knowledge of that link is the key in this evolutionary intent.
In her search of consciousness expansion she has tried to attain this by initiating a new cycle (that is still going on) in which she could develop objectivity and learn equality, relativity and attention.
In this lifetime her evolutioanry purpose is to learn that her vision of reality, her beliefs and moral are relative.
She needs to know and accept other person's views and ways to discover truth and that
this is her way to attain the essential unity behind all different ways and approaches to truth.
The way to actualize this challenge is initiating new relationships in an independent way, perhaps being her own teacher, and letting other people discover and hold their own truth.
Her need and acceptance of new experiences will let her to listen and learn from that.
Her courage and daring will take her beyond the limits of what she feels as security.
Specific ways of manifestation o this paradigm will be indicated by evolutionary stage and other karmic and astrological factors.
I am going to imagine some scenarios.
Consensus evolutionary stage
Pluto in 9th House
This souls desire was - and is - to expand her consciousness by explaining her relationship to more powerful forces by means of religion or some consensus philosophic system.
Her emotional security is related to holding that belief system.
However, she needs and desires freedom to live experiences and to reflect about them in search of truth.
This soul feels having a special destiny or identity, based in her relationship with religious or philosophical principles that explain or justify her link with universe.
She is more concerned with the aprehension of reality as a whole than with physical environment.
In this search Soul has perhaps traveled in prior lifetimes or has lived in different cultures. (I find this more possible in individuated stage).
In this lifetime she may be a natural loner. This paradigm involves some form of alienation from the person's culture or environment. In consensus stage it can manifest as some form of withdrawing from the immediate environmental relationships.
Evolutionary problemsrelated to the need of concentration and developing the intuitive faculty, and derived from the opposite desires in the soul:
a) The separative impulse leads to strong identificationswith the religious or philosophical system that reflects societal consensus.
This identification is related to her need of emotional security.
In an extreme (and frequent) manifestation of that she tries to "convert" others to her belief system. This conversion of people is supposed to reassure her.
As evolution proceed she will realize that it is a delusion.
b) Communication problems: Related to the difficulty to transmit what she "simply knows", her intuitions.
They also can be based on her own problem with accepting other's thinking, understanding or speaking.
SN in 7th House
This soul has been, and is, initiating many types of relationships, involving her with many different people.
In her search for knowledge, for ultimate truth, she has exposed herself to different emotional patterns and also to different intellectual systems (at least with people holding these intellectual systems).
In her intent to understand and attend other's reality as it exists for the other, she has put herself in the challenge of not sharing her belief system. This has been done at an experiential, subjective level, may be not at an intellectual level. (In individuated will she be able to confront intellectual systems).
She has done it looking for objectivity. Objectivity is a complex concept, and she still has a long path to attain it.
I believe she developed one aspect of 9th House archetype, that of knowing herself in a larger context.
In her compulsive need to establish relationships this soul has initiated different types of them and held different subjective positions.
One type probably was teacher = pupil relationships in that she could be in one or the other situation.
Other type: relationships that let her know a large spectrum o human possibilities.For example in a philosophical ego structure: living personal experiences as an anthropological exploration or research.
In the relationships she initiated looking for teachers, she could have been dependent or submissive to them.She could also hold her teacher's belief system or religion to be accepted. This could lead to a loss of individuality and to being dominated by teacher's philosophy or religion as being her own.
If she was the teacher, may be she was dominant or authoritative. With her ability to attend to others and her capacity to listen and understand she has actualized her attraction to people that needs of advice or intellectual reassurance. Indeed she was looking for her own emotional security.
The outcome was probably a manipulative control trying that pupil admits teacher's values and beliefs as his own.
Both possibilites can lead to a person who tries to "convert" others.
In the latter it may be a direct consequence.
In the former as a way to demonstrate how trustful she is. Or in a compensative or shadowy way,I mean she is dominated by her teacher and acts as adominator with weaker people.
PPP in 3rd House
This soul needs learn relativity in her vision of reality and truth. She is learning that there are many ways to approach truth and that every person has her own.
This lesson is learned by means of intellectual, philosophical or religious arguments and confrontations.
This exposure to diversity challenges her sense of emotional security. On one hand it furthers evolution by learning acceptance and open-mindedness. On the other hand resistances to other's points of view may arise.
By overcoming resistances she becomes less defensive and develops an open attitude towards understanding truth through other individuals and cultures.
Resistance can manifest in aggresive ways to expose the weakness or inaccuracy of other's reasoning or in enigmatic ways of expression.
But this soul will atract challenging people, with powerful reasons or strong beliefs that will expose her own limitations.
She may also attract people not able to understand what she thinks or says. This people may be pupils, siblings, or other relatives and it may also be very upsetting. The purpose behind this is learning to communicate in an understandable way, to see her own communication limitations and obstacles.
More she resists, more needs she this challenging relationships.
NN in 1st House
The new egocentric structures she is building have the potentiality of innovation and courage.
She may still be authoritative, but the need for new experiences and feedom will eventually lead to acknowledge and accept other's reasons and beliefs.
If evolutionary lessons are learned, these structures will let the PPP attainment by accepting other's freedom to think and express their way, and even to encourage them to do that.
Independence minimizes the need that other people confirm or accept his convictions.
Cusp to Individuated stage
The soul that in consensus stage adopted some form of religion may do a (or some) transitory lifetime as agnostic before accepting a spiritual vision of Reality in her return to Natural Law.
Individuated Stage(some ideas)
Consciousness expansion and search for truth is now philosophical or cosmological: Heterodox philosophical systems, even Perennial Philosophy; astrology, transpersonal psychology, even spiritual teachings.
The possible alienation is now cultural alienation. In former lives this Soul traveled much or lived in different cultures, and now identification with the society of birth becomes difficult. She may also abandon it if she feels repressed or suffocated.
NN boldness actualizes that.
Alienation is a necessary experience for that soul to eliminate barriers to understanding universal principles, Natural Law.
Alienation from consensus cultural knowledge furthers intuition (in-tuition).
NN gives the courage to accept what Soul already knows form within, without conscious reasoning, without the need to justify before people.
Communication problems derived from difficulty to express in linear thinking (left brain) her intuition (right brain) may be more frequent in this stage. However, independence and deepening of intuition develops tha ability to communicate what she intuits.
In consensus stage the problem was more based in rigidity or in agressively exposing other's weaknesses.
Intellectual or verbal agressiveness is still a problem, specially in 2nd. individuated.
But in this stage, SN experiences have developed more objectivity in relationships and in self-knowledge. And the soul is now in better conditions to accept challenges to her beliefs.
So, learning the PPP evolutionary lessons she will be able to transmit her interior wisdom gained in former lives understandings.
Thanks again, Rad
God Bless
Mirta
Hi Ellen,
First, yes, you corrected yourself about the waxing and waning aspects: the nodes mean motion being retrograde.
Second, your EA analysis so far, your reasoning, is sound. One of the dimensions within this paradigm that needs to be developed more occurs when the Soul has become totally dependent on external teacher types: S.Node in the 7th relative to the 9th House Pluto. When this is the case then such a Soul will simply be a collection of various teachers teachings over many lifetimes, even in the consensus: some limited religious/cosmological belief system. Thus the 3rd House polarity point of Pluto, relative to the N.Node in the 1st would manifest as others now confronting the Soul in the current life wherein the nature of the confrontations is to expose the weak links in the Souls religious/ cosmological understanding of life. The intent of the Soul is designing those circumstances is to force the Soul to begin to ask and answer it's own questions: to become it's own teacher. In so doing this then expands the consciousness of the Soul, and, in turn, allows for an entirely different way of communicating with others: that there are a variety of ways leading to a final understanding of Truth: the natural laws that are the structure of the manifested Creation. Within this it enforces the intent for the Soul to learn how to trust it's own intuition leading to it's own inwardly realized knowledge versus that which has been externally gained and simply 'believed' in.
God Bless, Rad
Hi Dhyana,
"Thus they may feel more secure staying put there and avoid altogether opening (in mind or literal travel) to different cultures/beliefs/philosophies etc. (Rad, is this paragraph accurate? Or would there have to be other factors for this to be accurate?)"
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Yes, very accurate because in this possibility within the total spectrum of the archetypes of the paradigm is to feel so threatened, Pluto, by any other existing belief/cosmological understanding of the manifested Creation that the Soul simply shuts out those competing understandings or views.
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Your EA analysis is very sound Dhyana and all that you said is entirely possible within the totality of the archetypes of this paradigm.
God Bless, Rad
Hi Mirta,
Very good effort, and your EA reasoning relative to the paradigm that we are working with is solid. All that you have stated so far is entirely possible. Good job.
God Bless, Rad
Quote from: Rad on Nov 29, 2010, 08:21 AM
Hi Ellen,
First, yes, you corrected yourself about the waxing and waning aspects: the nodes mean motion being retrograde.
Second, your EA analysis so far, your reasoning, is sound. One of the dimensions within this paradigm that needs to be developed more occurs when the Soul has become totally dependent on external teacher types: S.Node in the 7th relative to the 9th House Pluto. When this is the case then such a Soul will simply be a collection of various teachers teachings over many lifetimes, even in the consensus: some limited religious/cosmological belief system. Thus the 3rd House polarity point of Pluto, relative to the N.Node in the 1st would manifest as others now confronting the Soul in the current life wherein the nature of the confrontations is to expose the weak links in the Souls religious/ cosmological understanding of life. The intent of the Soul is designing those circumstances is to force the Soul to begin to ask and answer it's own questions: to become it's own teacher. In so doing this then expands the consciousness of the Soul, and, in turn, allows for an entirely different way of communicating with others: that there are a variety of ways leading to a final understanding of Truth: the natural laws that are the structure of the manifested Creation. Within this it enforces the intent for the Soul to learn how to trust it's own intuition leading to it's own inwardly realized knowledge versus that which has been externally gained and simply 'believed' in.
God Bless, Rad
Hi Rad,
Thanks. I had a really hard time with this one. I will work on it more, taking in consideration your feedback.
Peace,
Ellen
PS The DEPENDENCY in this case can happen with regard to prior lives and thus the conditioning in this life, because aries is NOT a part of that prior life conditioning. Yes? (Whereas in the prior practice chart, Aries was a part of that past life structure, thus dependency was not a possibility for that Soul...?)
Hi Ellen,
Yes .......................
God Bless, Rad
Thank you Rad for your feedback to my effort.
The value is in your encouragement.
God Bless
Mirta
Rad, Your feedback is very supportive and confirming. So appreciative to be a part of this group. Thanks for this opportunity.
Peace,
Dhyana
Quote from: Rad on Nov 29, 2010, 08:21 AM
....the Soul has become totally dependent on external teacher types: S.Node in the 7th relative to the 9th House Pluto. When this is the case then such a Soul will simply be a collection of various teachers teachings over many lifetimes, even in the consensus: some limited religious/cosmological belief system. Thus the 3rd House polarity point of Pluto, relative to the N.Node in the 1st would manifest as others now confronting the Soul in the current life wherein the nature of the confrontations is to expose the weak links in the Souls religious/ cosmological understanding of life. The intent of the Soul is designing those circumstances is to force the Soul to begin to ask and answer it's own questions: to become it's own teacher. In so doing this then expands the consciousness of the Soul, and, in turn, allows for an entirely different way of communicating with others: that there are a variety of ways leading to a final understanding of Truth: the natural laws that are the structure of the manifested Creation. Within this it enforces the intent for the Soul to learn how to trust it's own intuition leading to it's own inwardly realized knowledge versus that which has been externally gained and simply 'believed' in.
God Bless, Rad
...Powerful ! Such insight..... Thank you for articulating this just the way you have here Rad.
I
really understand this ! ;)
Peace,
Dhyana
Hi Practice Chart Group,
So am wondering if those who are participating want to add more to our existing paradigm, and for those who have not written anything yet if you so intend. Please let me know. There are many, many dynamics in our existing paradigm that have yet really been covered. For example, what is the underlying emotional/ psychological paradox of having the S.Node in the 7th, the N.Node in the 1st ?
Anyway, let me know how you all wish to proceed.
God Bless, Rad
Hi Rad,
I will post before tomorrow morning. I need to take it slow, ie just the natal Pluto, ppp and nn and sn. I will continue to read and learn, though, if the group wants to move on.
Many thanks, Heather
Thanks Rad. I'd had an unexpected visitor and other things came up - but at last I am free today to do this current practice chart.
Hi Rad,
I'd like to give it another shot. I should be able to do something this weekend.
Ellen
Pluto 9th - SN 7th - PPP 3rd - NN 1st
The prior core evolutionary intention of the Soul was a search for the truth of existence through philosophical, cosmological, metaphysical or religious investigations. Internal and external reality was interpreted through the right-brain, intuitive, 6th sense function. She (the Soul) came in with a desire to align with Natural Laws.
Specifically, through the South Node in the 7th house, the Soul interpreted life and reality through "relationships" that allowed investigations into the "relativity of truth." Within such relationships she was able to compare and evaluate her belief systems with others. Her core desire or line of questioning was: "How can relationships be expressed in a natural way?" (in alignment with Natural Law).
The Soul generally had no conscious understanding of how she received intuitive knowledge nor why she was attracted to certain people. Once a committed relationship was formed, a philosophical superstructure was built that gave the relationship meaning and purpose. Generally, due to the SN 7th, she and her partners would take on the same beliefs for security purposes, in order to bring a (false) sense of stability or sense of "reality" to the relationship.
Through the NN 1st, it became necessary for her (or her partner) to break away from this "falseness" and "dishonesty" so as to discover the real truth from her own personal perspective: what she instinctively needs from a partner? - and how she pursues these new needs through spontaneous attractions to others.
In the Consensus evolutionary condition, relationships were co-dependent, with pressure to conform to the mainstream patriarchal expectations of what relationships "should be." The Soul and her partners projected their need for expansion onto each other. This resulted in the projection of religious judgment or criticism, or trying to convert the other to their own particular belief structure in order to feel secure and powerful. The dominant/submissive roles and the dependency upon each other to provide the meaning for their lives and for their relationship resulted in the relationship becoming unbalanced in terms of normal boundaries.
The Soul in the Individuated evolutionary condition desired to liberate from conformity patterns in order to actualize her inherent individuality within relationships. In the 1st subdivision Individuated, both partners unconsciously fulfilled the other's expectations, thus losing their own sense of individuality. There were lessons in honesty due to "living a lie" by pretending to be part of a religious organization.
In the 2nd subdivision Individuated, the Soul's reality had been created by exploring alternative beliefs along with other alienated souls (friends) by deeply criticizing, for example, cover-ups, conspiracies, injustices, inequalities and secrets in society or the world, but not really doing anything about them. Imbalances in personal relationships were quite extreme, with the Soul lashing out against her partner, allowing her to break free, and leading her to the NN expression of individuality (1st).
In the 3rd subdivision Individuated, the Soul exhibited a form of social genius by expressing progressive and expansive artistic, intellectual, philosophical or metaphysical ideas to help transform the world. Roles in society included artist, psychologist, teacher, relationship counselor, wildlife advocate, etc.
In the Spiritual evolutionary condition, the Soul and her partners had usually been together for many lifetimes. In the 1st subdivision Spiritual, the Soul was aware of the need to improve herself and to expand her consciousness. Her relationships were defined by the ability to love the partner unconditionally, to be natural people, and to seek knowledge that embodied the truth.
In the 2nd subdivision of Spiritual, the Soul played the role of spiritual teacher or healer with a spiritual mission to fulfill. She taught many students in teacher/student relationships which were marked by inequality because of a need to convert others to her versions of (part) truths. The lesson here was that she needed to face the fact that she was not the source of this knowledge, that God was, and so a humiliation of the ego would have been necessary.
In the 3rd subdivision of Spiritual, the Soul would be firmly identified with Universal Truth, and her role as a loving world spiritual teacher would be based on the knowledge (and Oneness) of Natural Law and Universal Law.
In most of the evolutionary stages, the Soul, along with her partners, desired to explore various philosophies, religions, metaphysical systems, cosmologies, cultural diversities or Natural Law in order to attain knowledge and natural wisdom. Deep cultural alienation was experienced due to the constant need for freedom and expansion, and the need to express the right-brain function.
In her personal relationships, there was an issue with honesty. The philosophical superstructures created by her and her partners masked their actual realities and that of their relationships. The difficulty in being honest with each other lead to extremes of misrepresentations, exaggerations and half-truths. Covering up the truth of relationships had become a compulsive and habitual pattern for her in the past, and this eventually lead to a more refined search to find the actual truth. Periods of truth alternated with periods of dishonesty, and were punctuated by confrontations with her partners.
Since the archetype of the 9th house symbolizes the desire "to know the truth of anything," the revelation of the truth in the Soul's relationships was fated to occur at some point. When the truth was finally revealed, the reaction was massive disillusionment, bewilderment and betrayal. In evolutionary terms, these shocks lead to further relationships where limited past behaviour patterns could be worked upon and rectified in the quest for "the actual truth of a relationship" or "how to be in relationships in a natural way."
Another way this karmic signature could have manifested was by way of student/teacher relationships. Teachings that either partner possessed spanned everyday living to the philosophical, metaphysical or spiritual. The core dynamics of these relationship were defined by the inequality of roles, and the emotional investment for security purposes. The role of student would have progressively lead to breaking free of that role in order to find the truth for herself through the NN 1st, through being attracted instinctively and spontaneously to new forms of knowledge.
The Pluto polarity point in the 3rd house is teaching the Soul to be absolutely honest, and to "speak the truth." She is learning how to make an honest examination of the dynamics of her relationships so that the superstructure of beliefs honestly reflect her desires and needs. The imbalance in her relationships would need to be addressed by really "listening" to the reality of her partners without having to convert them to her own version of reality, to build effective and honest communication, to allow the partner to independently think for themselves thereby allowing them to fully express their own sense of individuality (1st), and by balancing the need for time alone with the need for relationships.
The underlying emotional/psychological paradox of SN 7th and NN 1st is one wherein the Soul has two opposing emotional needs. One is a need for absolute freedom, and the other is a need for absolute relationship. She can create "exit points" in her relationships so that freedom and independence are assured. Based on the opposite direction of these desires, the Soul had been choosing partners in which only some of the core needs were met. In her search for truth and balance in relationships, she is learning how to resolve the emotional/psychological dilemma of the 7th/1st by honestly identifying all of her core and essential needs, and by making the right choices in her relationships based on that knowledge.
In her relationships, this becomes a paradox because on the one hand, the Soul desires to really listen to the reality of her partner so as to be able to give him whatsoever he truly needs in the relationship; yet, on the other hand, her partner's needs may be in direct opposition to her own needs. He may require absolute freedom - she may require absolute relationship. He may continue with dishonesty - while she would need absolute truth (and this would create confrontations). He may want to remain uncommitted - while she may need full commitment. The polarity point in the 3rd house allows them to interact through effective communication to discuss their relationship needs in an honest way, to make compromises, and to incorporate instinctive desires and needs into the equation. Thus, honesty (9th), balance (7th), communication (3rd) and freedom (1st) are allowed to flourish in the relationship.
Pluto in the ninth house:
This individual would come to this life with knowledge of himself in a cosmological sense. If in consensus, religious doctrines or beliefs would be that source. If in individuated, freedom to explore the realm of his own direct experience of beliefs would occur, and if in spiritual state, he would be resonating with natural truths that are evident without the need for belief.
Based on the rest of his chart he could have had either the pursuit of higher learning about his cosmological context challenged and hindered, or accelerated and supported, or a combination of both.
SN in 7th house:
His landscape of discovering about larger truths has typically been through other people and his relationships. He could have been a leader or follower of a socially accepted religious doctrine(consensus), he could have been involved in a small community of seekers liberating themselves from prevailing views to develop their own interpretation of the laws of life(individuated) or he could again have been a guru or follower of a guru in or a shaman or shaman's apprentice in a community that base its existence on what is learned through exploration on what is natural truth. In any case, his seeking for truth would be developed by initiating relationships, learning and interpreting the information from these relationships and then expanding his world view.
PPP in the third house:
THis soul desires to find his overall world view in specific ways. He desires the information to hone his perspective. He will be looking for intellectual communication in ways that his views are confronted and thus reshaped to reflect the ongoing way nature integrates more information to evolve. In consensus, he would be confronted by information about his religion that might conflict with what he previously believed and he would have to adjust his thinking to accommodate this. In individuated, he may be released from his previous views entirely because of new information he gathers. In a spiritual state he may be exposed to teachings that give him specific ways to communicate what he knows are universal truths, but he hasn't been able to articulate before this current life.
In each state, he will be working to develop a mental framework to communicate what he understands to be larger truths about life.
NN in the 1st house:
With this placement he is learning to find security from within his own instincts. The evolutionary requirement to confront his existing beliefs and views is facilitated by learning to trust and learn the truth from following his own instincts.
In consensus he might have to actually physically fight for the right to have his views communicated. In individuated he may be fighting for the freedom to choose, based on his instincts, which views he will inform himself with to meet his evolutionary requirements. In a spiritual state, he would likely use the energy of his instinctual self to fuel his ongoing personal evolution. In spiritual, he would find ways to channel the instinctual energy to transform and purge beliefs that no longer support his evolutionary path. I each case, he will be learning to find a self image and security within his instinctual self and then using that to find the information he needs to evolve his world view.
I did try to gently introduce a simple take on each evolutionary stage...I new step for me. THanks for all the encouragement here.
Heather
Hi Heather,
It's so good to see that you are already growing, evolving, beyond your first effort in our last paradigm. It is wonderful to see that you are starting to try to discriminate between the different EA stages as well. What you have come up with is of course within the total possibilities of archetypes of the paradigm that we are working with. GOOD FOR YOU HEATHER. Bravo.
God Bless,Rad
Rad, I think you missed my practice chart above Heather's. Thanks.
Hi Rad,
I will probably not be able to give another shot at this paradigm as I had hoped. School, a little bit of healing crisis, the realization that I now really have to start thinking about a job, and giving attention to the chart of a friend have taken my attention away. So feel free to move on if I haven't posted before you are wanting to do that. I'll content myself with reading what others have posted and learning from the comments you have posted in response.
Thank you, as always, for this opportunity, Rad. I am hopeful that I will continue to be able to take advantage of it at least to some degree..
Peace,
Ellen
Hi Rad,
Quote[Hi Heather,
It's so good to see that you are already growing, evolving, beyond your first effort in our last paradigm. It is wonderful to see that you are starting to try to discriminate between the different EA stages as well. What you have come up with is of course within the total possibilities of archetypes of the paradigm that we are working with. GOOD FOR YOU HEATHER. Bravo.
God Bless,Rad
/quote]
So satisfying to have made the effort and try harder this time!
Thank you for the warm encouragement
Heather
Hi Linda,
Sorry I missed your post last week. Please see below.
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Quote from: Linda on Dec 03, 2010, 10:16 PM
Pluto 9th - SN 7th - PPP 3rd - NN 1st
The prior core evolutionary intention of the Soul was a search for the truth of existence through philosophical, cosmological, metaphysical or religious investigations. Internal and external reality was interpreted through the right-brain, intuitive, 6th sense function. She (the Soul) came in with a desire to align with Natural Laws.
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In this paradigm, so far, we can not say that the Soul 'came in' with a desire to align with Natural Laws.
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Specifically, through the South Node in the 7th house, the Soul interpreted life and reality through "relationships" that allowed investigations into the "relativity of truth." Within such relationships she was able to compare and evaluate her belief systems with others. Her core desire or line of questioning was: "How can relationships be expressed in a natural way?" (in alignment with Natural Law).
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This would be true in the Individuated Evolutionary State. This would not occur in the Consensus State.
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The Soul generally had no conscious understanding of how she received intuitive knowledge nor why she was attracted to certain people.
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In a Consensus State this is true, but even in that state the Soul would in fact know why she was attracted to certain people: they would 'believe' what she herself believed. And that mutual belief would then become the basis for the relationship itself, creating a deep sense of co-dependency wherein they mutually reinforced those beliefs together in order to feel individually secure within the relationship itself.
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Once a committed relationship was formed, a philosophical superstructure was built that gave the relationship meaning and purpose. Generally, due to the SN 7th, she and her partners would take on the same beliefs for security purposes, in order to bring a (false) sense of stability or sense of "reality" to the relationship.
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The stability for the relationship built in this way is not 'false' to the Soul. It is very real and necessary at this point in the Soul's evolution.
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Through the NN 1st, it became necessary for her (or her partner) to break away from this "falseness" and "dishonesty" so as to discover the real truth from her own personal perspective: what she instinctively needs from a partner? - and how she pursues these new needs through spontaneous attractions to others.
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There was no 'falseness' or 'dishonesty'. The N.Node here correlates to the Soul's need, desire, to evolve beyond the security of co-dependency in relationships via the S.Node in the 7th. It correlates to the Soul learning to ask and answer it's own questions. What the Soul thus needs are others in general who encourage the Soul to be as independent as it needs to be, to ask and answer it's own questions, and to create a life in which the Soul is free to act upon it's own desires for self-discovery that are not hindered, undermined, or impeded by an intimate other. And the Soul, in the end, would need to learn how to be in a intimate relationship because it simply wanted to be, not because it 'needed' to be.
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In the Consensus evolutionary condition, relationships were co-dependent, with pressure to conform to the mainstream patriarchal expectations of what relationships "should be." The Soul and her partners projected their need for expansion onto each other. This resulted in the projection of religious judgment or criticism, or trying to convert the other to their own particular belief structure in order to feel secure and powerful. The dominant/submissive roles and the dependency upon each other to provide the meaning for their lives and for their relationship resulted in the relationship becoming unbalanced in terms of normal boundaries.
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This is one possibility that exits. Others also exist at the Consensus level. What are they ?
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The Soul in the Individuated evolutionary condition desired to liberate from conformity patterns in order to actualize her inherent individuality within relationships. In the 1st subdivision Individuated, both partners unconsciously fulfilled the other's expectations, thus losing their own sense of individuality. There were lessons in honesty due to "living a lie" by pretending to be part of a religious organization.
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There is nothing in this paradigm that correlates to loosing their own sense of individuality. The Soul's sense of individuality is a function of the relationships that it forms with others in general, and an intimate other specifically, in which the asking and answering of the 9th House type of questions occurs. At this point in the Soul's evolution that would then correlate to others in general, and intimate others specifically, in which the nature of the questions, and thus the answers, would be of a progressive rebellion against the consensus of 'beliefs' held within the society of birth that would then progressively lead to questioning and examining other belief structures beyond that society of birth. There is no 'pretending' to be part of a religious organization here as a result. The underlying issue, again, is the co-dependency upon others in general, and intimate others specifically, in terms of the asking and answering the 9th House questions. Thus, the N.Node in the 1st, the polarity point of Pluto in the 3rd in order to induce the Soul's next evolutionary steps.
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In the 2nd subdivision Individuated, the Soul's reality had been created by exploring alternative beliefs along with other alienated souls (friends) by deeply criticizing, for example, cover-ups, conspiracies, injustices, inequalities and secrets in society or the world, but not really doing anything about them. Imbalances in personal relationships were quite extreme, with the Soul lashing out against her partner, allowing her to break free, and leading her to the NN expression of individuality (1st).
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In this subdivision the Soul would bond with others, S.Node in the 7th, who would share the Soul's own core sense of alienation from the world at large. Other Soul's whose own alienation kept them on the outskirts of society, the world. The Soul at this point, philosophically speaking, would be defined by a core agnosticism and/or atheism in terms of how it understands the nature of life, of Creation. The lashing out would occur to any other Soul that did attempt to bind the Soul in anyway. The N.Node in this context, relative to the polarity point of Pluto, means that the Soul must radically adjust this orientation to phenomenal reality because this orientation will ultimately lead to nihilism. Thus, the Soul is desiring and needing to create new understandings, philosophical, that allow it to come to see that there is a natural order to life, that there are Natural Laws that do explain everything. So, in essence, the Soul at this point is desiring to CONFRONT ITSELF relative to this preexisting orientation to life, and those others that it does form relationships too who share that orientation.
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In the 3rd subdivision Individuated, the Soul exhibited a form of social genius by expressing progressive and expansive artistic, intellectual, philosophical or metaphysical ideas to help transform the world. Roles in society included artist, psychologist, teacher, relationship counselor, wildlife advocate, etc.
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True, but what are the underlying archetypes that explain this ? And what does the N.Node in the 1st, and the polarity point of Pluto mean here ?
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In the Spiritual evolutionary condition, the Soul and her partners had usually been together for many lifetimes. In the 1st subdivision Spiritual, the Soul was aware of the need to improve herself and to expand her consciousness. Her relationships were defined by the ability to love the partner unconditionally, to be natural people, and to seek knowledge that embodied the truth.
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In the paradigm that we are working with the S.Node in the 7th will correlate to a Soul that is repeating key intimate relationships at all the Evolutionary Stages. In prior lifetimes this would correlate, at this point, to a Soul who has been asking the giant cosmological questions as to the nature of the Creation and has formed relationships with others to that end. At this point this will typically correlate with a Soul who has sought out teacher types who appeared, or were, more evolved than itself who could answer the questions that this Soul has been asking. Through intimate relationships the Soul at this point will either form a relationship to another who is equally asking the same questions with the same dependence on the external teacher types that is more evolved and this then forming the basis of their intimate relationship together that creates a co dependence on one another to reinforce the relationship in this way, a relationship in which the Soul becomes a defacto teacher to an intimate other by way of playing back the teachings gained by the relationship to the external teacher itself, or becoming the student in intimate relationships in which the partner is then playing back such teachings gained at the hands of the external teacher.
In all cases the foundation of the intimate relationship is some shared cosmological understanding for life itself. So, of course, the N.Node in the 1st, the polarity point of Pluto, correlates to the next step in evolution for a Soul at this point: to learn how to ask and answer their own cosmological questions so that they become free and inwardly secure from within them self. In essence, to become their own teacher. This then requires by way of the polarity point of Pluto a desire to confront any 'belief' that is not inwardly provable by the Soul itself. Thus, shedding beliefs outright and replacing beliefs with 'knowledge': knowledge gained from within them self. In turn, this then evolves the S.Node in the 7th wherein they encourage others to do exactly the same thing in general, and by way of their intimate relationships being involved with another who is also doing that. As a result of this they will then create a partner in which both simply want to be together because they want to be, not because they need to be. And, a result of that, they will then be in a relationship in which the projected needs of another does not occur because both partners will be fulfilling their own needs from within them self. In turn, this allows for a relationship in which each is truly listening to one another and then giving to one another what each actually needs, versus what old pattern of giving to a partner where that giving is an extension of their own subjective projections of their own reality upon the other.
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In the 2nd subdivision of Spiritual, the Soul played the role of spiritual teacher or healer with a spiritual mission to fulfill. She taught many students in teacher/student relationships which were marked by inequality because of a need to convert others to her versions of (part) truths. The lesson here was that she needed to face the fact that she was not the source of this knowledge, that God was, and so a humiliation of the ego would have been necessary.
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True, but the deeper issue is the Soul's need to be validated for all that supposed power reflected in the 'knowledge' that the Soul has by way of all the people around it that is validating to the Soul how wonderful and powerful it is because of that 'knowledge'. This would be a Soul that points to itself versus pointing to God. God would certainly be part of it's lingo but to get to that God means to go through them in some way. With the N.Node in the 1st, the polarity point of Pluto, the Soul at this point will actually design circumstances that lead it being confronted by others as to the nature of not only the 'teachings' but the Soul's egocentric need to be considered as some sort of great spiritual personage. These types of confrontation are intended to break up that preexisting orientation so that the Soul then remembers that it is only a messenger who points the way home, and does not point to itself as the way to go home.
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In the 3rd subdivision of Spiritual, the Soul would be firmly identified with Universal Truth, and her role as a loving world spiritual teacher would be based on the knowledge (and Oneness) of Natural Law and Universal Law.
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At this stage, from beginning to end, the Soul is progressively evolving beyond the need for any human intimate relationship to a total and complete inner relationship with God/ess itself. The Soul is progressively learning how to speak in a variety of tongues in order to reach / teach progressively larger and larger amounts of people.
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In most of the evolutionary stages, the Soul, along with her partners, desired to explore various philosophies, religions, metaphysical systems, cosmologies, cultural diversities or Natural Law in order to attain knowledge and natural wisdom. Deep cultural alienation was experienced due to the constant need for freedom and expansion, and the need to express the right-brain function.
In her personal relationships, there was an issue with honesty. The philosophical superstructures created by her and her partners masked their actual realities and that of their relationships. The difficulty in being honest with each other lead to extremes of misrepresentations, exaggerations and half-truths. Covering up the truth of relationships had become a compulsive and habitual pattern for her in the past, and this eventually lead to a more refined search to find the actual truth. Periods of truth alternated with periods of dishonesty, and were punctuated by confrontations with her partners.
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This is one way for this paradigm to manifest, but only one way.
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Since the archetype of the 9th house symbolizes the desire "to know the truth of anything," the revelation of the truth in the Soul's relationships was fated to occur at some point. When the truth was finally revealed, the reaction was massive disillusionment, bewilderment and betrayal. In evolutionary terms, these shocks lead to further relationships where limited past behaviour patterns could be worked upon and rectified in the quest for "the actual truth of a relationship" or "how to be in relationships in a natural way."
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The truth about the Soul's own orientation to reality, and why, is what is the 'truth' here. This, of itself, does not mean that it leads to massive disillusionment, etc, etc, etc. Again what you are stating is a possibility for certain Souls, not all.
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Another way this karmic signature could have manifested was by way of student/teacher relationships. Teachings that either partner possessed spanned everyday living to the philosophical, metaphysical or spiritual. The core dynamics of these relationship were defined by the inequality of roles, and the emotional investment for security purposes. The role of student would have progressively lead to breaking free of that role in order to find the truth for herself through the NN 1st, through being attracted instinctively and spontaneously to new forms of knowledge.
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Yes
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The Pluto polarity point in the 3rd house is teaching the Soul to be absolutely honest, and to "speak the truth." She is learning how to make an honest examination of the dynamics of her relationships so that the superstructure of beliefs honestly reflect her desires and needs. The imbalance in her relationships would need to be addressed by really "listening" to the reality of her partners without having to convert them to her own version of reality, to build effective and honest communication, to allow the partner to independently think for themselves thereby allowing them to fully express their own sense of individuality (1st), and by balancing the need for time alone with the need for relationships.
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Yes
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The underlying emotional/psychological paradox of SN 7th and NN 1st is one wherein the Soul has two opposing emotional needs. One is a need for absolute freedom, and the other is a need for absolute relationship. She can create "exit points" in her relationships so that freedom and independence are assured. Based on the opposite direction of these desires, the Soul had been choosing partners in which only some of the core needs were met. In her search for truth and balance in relationships, she is learning how to resolve the emotional/psychological dilemma of the 7th/1st by honestly identifying all of her core and essential needs, and by making the right choices in her relationships based on that knowledge.
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Yes
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In her relationships, this becomes a paradox because on the one hand, the Soul desires to really listen to the reality of her partner so as to be able to give him whatsoever he truly needs in the relationship; yet, on the other hand, her partner's needs may be in direct opposition to her own needs. He may require absolute freedom - she may require absolute relationship. He may continue with dishonesty - while she would need absolute truth (and this would create confrontations). He may want to remain uncommitted - while she may need full commitment. The polarity point in the 3rd house allows them to interact through effective communication to discuss their relationship needs in an honest way, to make compromises, and to incorporate instinctive desires and needs into the equation. Thus, honesty (9th), balance (7th), communication (3rd) and freedom (1st) are allowed to flourish in the relationship.
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Yes, this is certainly a possibility within the total spectrum of the archetypes in the paradigm we are working with. What are other possibilities ?
Please review my comments Linda and resubmit your analysis if you feel drawn too.
God Bless, Rad
This old one, :D would love it. Looking to deepen and refine..blessings
Hello All,
I truly wanted to participate in this thread and haven't been able to thus far-my cat has been very ill, maybe dying and I have been working quite a bit. Hope I can participate in the future. :)
Blessings,
Wendy
Quote from Rad: In this paradigm, so far, we can not say that the Soul 'came in' with a desire to align with Natural Laws.
Hi Rad,
Is this simply because we don't yet know the evolutionary stage of this Soul? Or is there more reason for your statement above....?
Thank you,
Ellen
Hi Ellen,
By phrasing it that way, 'came in with', implies that the Soul has a conscious desire to do so. There are millions of Soul's on our planet that have a 9th House Pluto who do not have such a desire.
God Bless, Rad
Hi Rad,
I am wondering if Souls in the spiritual state would have that conscious desire...........
Thank you,
Ellen
Rad's Quote:There is nothing in this paradigm that correlates to loosing their own sense of individuality.
Hi Rad,
Is there a paradigm/archetype that would/could indicate this?
The Soul's sense of individuality is a function of the relationships that it forms with others in general, and an intimate other specifically, in which the asking and answering of the 9th House type of questions occurs.. The underlying issue, again, is the co-dependency upon others in general, and intimate others specifically, in terms of the asking and answering the 9th House questions.
I wanted to throw this out there so that I could get your response because I'm confused about the term co-dependency. I had always understood co-dependency to involve "losing oneself" or "giving oneself away". But you are saying this is not true. I guess I am confused about terms - from co-dependency to dependency to "losing oneself".........
Thanks, Rad. I appreciate any response you are able to give.
Peace,
Ellen
Rad,
I apologize for slipping off this practice chart thread for some time, I have been traveling and have been completing some other projects. As soon as possible I will jump on board again.
Thank you for your support and for understanding.
Pluto in the 9th House
The Soul with Pluto in the 9th House will have had the experience of its overall perspective being expanded. The need for this Soul will have been the need for freedom to explore whatever belief system or culture or philosophy it felt naturally drawn to. Being exposed to these different views and realities will have had the effect of shifting and expanding its understanding of "truth". This Soul will have encountered experiences that challenged it with regard to honesty. In this life, due to the wandering type of existence this Soul has experienced in prior lives, there will be a sense of loneliness that perpetuates the need and desire to continue its search: what out there resonates with what I believe/know/understand? In some cases, the Soul will be born into a culture that resonates with its own beliefs/knowledge/understanding. Thus, while there will still be a sense of loneliness, it will be ameliorated some in this type of situation. In this case, the Soul will deeply explore the beliefs/values/customs of the culture into which it was born, deepening its understanding of the world around it and its place in it. In other cases the Soul will be born into cultures that feel alien to it. In these cases, the Soul will continue to wander and search for that outside it which resonates to what it intuitively knows inside.
SN in the 7th
With the SN in the 7th house, the Soul has relied on his one-on-one contacts with others as his primary means of searching. In his encounters with the other, he has been exposed to beliefs/ knowledge/ philosophies that have challenged and thus expanded his own intuitive understanding of the world and universe. In past lives he may have been the student teaching the other or he may have been the teacher expounding to the other what he intuitively knew, but since the archetype of Libra is one of equality, these types of relationships would have contributed to the feeling of aloneness as his real desire would have been to relate equally to another. Perhaps the sense of special purpose that this Soul has felt has prevented him from being able to let go of the role of teacher or student, thus perpetuating the inner feeling of loneliness born out of the intrinsic inequality of these kinds of relationships. There also seems to be another potential bind here. This Soul will have an intuitive understanding of something, but perhaps not yet the ability to communicate what he knows. Combining this with the sense of special destiny this Soul may feel, and also with the tendency toward inequality and extremes in the Libra archetype, the Soul may feel superior to others, thus preventing the realization of the true intent of the Libran archetype: equality.
PPP in the 3rd House
The Soul in this lifetime is desiring to learn how to communicate to others what it intuitively knows. This desire, whether conscious or not, will continually lead this Soul to explore more left-brained, analytical systems of thought that help him to give voice to what he knows in ways that others can understand. I am thinking that the 3rd house archetype would indicate that in this lifetime he is less likely to travel far and wide but instead will encounter resistance in his more immediate community/environment and that it will be these encounters that will stimulate his need/desire to pursue ways and learning that will allow him to articulate what he knows so that others can understand. Perhaps in prior lives his position was such (royalty?) that he didn't need to be concerned with whether or not others understood him. But in this life that is not the case. Even his siblings will require that he explain his understanding in a way that they can understand.
NN in the 1st House
With the NN in the 1st house, this Soul will be driven in this lifetime to find answers to the question: Who am I? Because so much of the Soul's identity in the past has been defined in relation to the other, there is a need in this lifetime to come to an understanding of who he is separate from the other. It is possible, with the Aries archetype, that there will be angry confrontations with others that will force this Soul to begin to actualize the 3rd house PPP - the need to learn how to articulate what it intuitively knows so that others can understand. Thus in this way the NN would act as a facilitator to the PPP. There would also be in this lifetime an intrinsic evolutionary need for freedom. Thus, with the Libran opposition signifying the past, it seems like the need would be to break free from relationship patterns that were no longer growth-promoting. These relationship patterns would be those based on inequality. The confrontations that the Soul experiences in this lifetime would awaken the Soul to this inequality and thus awaken the Soul's desire for equal relationships. The struggle (because it is the NN and thus not familiar) would be to learn to define himself independently from the other and to learn to stand on his own. With the PPP in the 3rd, his way of doing this will be to pursue the knowledge systems that help him to more clearly define and articulate his intuitive sense of things. By doing this, he will gradually relate to others as equals, recognizing that his way/understanding is only one of many and that relationship is about 2 equals sharing with others what they know and 2 equals respecting each others differences.
One final thought
One thing I didn't address in this archetype is the possibility that this Soul will have the tendency of feeling/believing that it can't do it on its own. I think this feeling would contribute to the sense of inner isolation the Soul feels because he would not be claiming his full power. The Aries NN will force this Soul in this lifetime to begin to define himself as an independent being - and this according to the requirements of the PPP (ie, by pursuing more left-brained ways of understanding and communicating). This process will have the effect of alleviating that inner sense of isolation/loneliness.
Hi Ellen,
Quote from: Ellen on Dec 10, 2010, 08:32 PM
Hi Rad,
I am wondering if Souls in the spiritual state would have that conscious desire...........
Thank you,
Ellen
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The underlying desire within the Spiritual State is to understand the nature of Creation, and the natural laws of the manifested Creation. *************************************
God Bless, Rad
Hi Ellen,
Quote from: Ellen on Dec 10, 2010, 08:49 PM
Rad's Quote:There is nothing in this paradigm that correlates to loosing their own sense of individuality.
Hi Rad,
Is there a paradigm/archetype that would/could indicate this?
*****************************************************
There are a variety of possible paradigms that could correlate with this if we understand 'loosing their own sense of individuality' as a total loss of individual/ egocentric identity. Understood in exactly that way would then mean that the Soul has become something like an automaton that manifests as the Soul simply being as extension of others expectations. More darkly, this automaton like condition for the Soul could also occur as a function of being brainwashed by another or others. And the very worse cases would involve being 'possessed' by evil entities.
******************************************************************
The Soul's sense of individuality is a function of the relationships that it forms with others in general, and an intimate other specifically, in which the asking and answering of the 9th House type of questions occurs.. The underlying issue, again, is the co-dependency upon others in general, and intimate others specifically, in terms of the asking and answering the 9th House questions.
I wanted to throw this out there so that I could get your response because I'm confused about the term co-dependency. I had always understood co-dependency to involve "losing oneself" or "giving oneself away". But you are saying this is not true. I guess I am confused about terms - from co-dependency to dependency to "losing oneself".........
************************************************************************
Seems it depends on how is going to understand the word co-dependency. To me this does not correlate to 'loosing oneself' at all. To me it means that one's sense of reality and identity is dependent on others to sustain one's sense of individual reality and identity. The core dynamics of course being dependency, dependent upon. That would be very different than literally 'loosing oneself. Loosing oneself, to me, means that one's entire sense of individual identity has been lost: no sense of individual identity at all.
**********************************************************************
God Bless, Rad
Hi Skywalker,
Thanks for letting me know.
God Bless,Rad
Hi Ellen,
Quote from: Ellen on Dec 11, 2010, 07:54 AM
Pluto in the 9th House
The Soul with Pluto in the 9th House will have had the experience of its overall perspective being expanded.
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Prior to the current life this Soul has desired to expand it's understanding of the nature of life, of Creation................
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The need for this Soul will have been the need for freedom to explore whatever belief system or culture or philosophy it felt naturally drawn to. Being exposed to these different views and realities will have had the effect of shifting and expanding its understanding of "truth". This Soul will have encountered experiences that challenged it with regard to honesty.
***********************************************
Expand on the issue of honesty here if you can .........what challenges and why ?
**************************************************
In this life, due to the wandering type of existence this Soul has experienced in prior lives, there will be a sense of loneliness that perpetuates the need and desire to continue its search: what out there resonates with what I believe/know/understand? In some cases, the Soul will be born into a culture that resonates with its own beliefs/knowledge/understanding. Thus, while there will still be a sense of loneliness, it will be ameliorated some in this type of situation. In this case, the Soul will deeply explore the beliefs/values/customs of the culture into which it was born, deepening its understanding of the world around it and its place in it. In other cases the Soul will be born into cultures that feel alien to it. In these cases, the Soul will continue to wander and search for that outside it which resonates to what it intuitively knows inside.
SN in the 7th
With the SN in the 7th house, the Soul has relied on his one-on-one contacts with others as his primary means of searching. In his encounters with the other, he has been exposed to beliefs/ knowledge/ philosophies that have challenged and thus expanded his own intuitive understanding of the world and universe. In past lives he may have been the student teaching the other or he may have been the teacher expounding to the other what he intuitively knew, but since the archetype of Libra is one of equality, these types of relationships would have contributed to the feeling of aloneness as his real desire would have been to relate equally to another.
******************************************************
Yes, but it's also entirely possible in this paradigm that the Soul forms relationships with others in general, and an intimate other specifically, wherein there is a equally shared philosophical/ religious understanding of the universe, or Creation. Thus, the aloneness would not exist at all when this occurs.
************************************************************
Perhaps the sense of special purpose that this Soul has felt has prevented him from being able to let go of the role of teacher or student, thus perpetuating the inner feeling of loneliness born out of the intrinsic inequality of these kinds of relationships.
**************************************************************
Relative to just the Pluto in the 9th, and the S.Node in the 7th, there is nothing within those symbols that correlate to any sense of a 'special purpose'.
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There also seems to be another potential bind here. This Soul will have an intuitive understanding of something, but perhaps not yet the ability to communicate what he knows.
******************************************
This would only occur if the Soul was born into a culture, society, or tribe in which the consensus and prevailing 'beliefs' of those groups created a sense of alienation within the Soul. The sense of alienation is born out of the 9th House Pluto. When that becomes the operational archetype then, yes, the Soul is intuitively sensing something deeper, larger, and different than those existing and prevailing beliefs of the group that it is born into. This then can create the affect of what you have said: the ability to communicate what the Soul intuitively feels or knows.
*****************************************************
Combining this with the sense of special destiny this Soul may feel, and also with the tendency toward inequality and extremes in the Libra archetype, the Soul may feel superior to others, thus preventing the realization of the true intent of the Libran archetype: equality.
PPP in the 3rd House
The Soul in this lifetime is desiring to learn how to communicate to others what it intuitively knows. This desire, whether conscious or not, will continually lead this Soul to explore more left-brained, analytical systems of thought that help him to give voice to what he knows in ways that others can understand. I am thinking that the 3rd house archetype would indicate that in this lifetime he is less likely to travel far and wide but instead will encounter resistance in his more immediate community/environment and that it will be these encounters that will stimulate his need/desire to pursue ways and learning that will allow him to articulate what he knows so that others can understand.
******************************************************
The existing paradigm does not correlate to restricting the travel of this Soul. Wherever the Soul is the archetype and analysis you are describing would occur. This polarity point can also mean, for example, that the Soul is literally designing a life in which it's existing philosophical understandings of life, which the Soul may attempt to prove and ram down people's throats in order for the Soul to feel secure, is aggressively challenged and confronted by others. The intent within this is of course for the Soul to expand upon it's own understanding of life, or to eliminate it completely and begin the process of searching for that philosophical meaning of life all over again.
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Perhaps in prior lives his position was such (royalty?) that he didn't need to be concerned with whether or not others understood him. But in this life that is not the case. Even his siblings will require that he explain his understanding in a way that they can understand.
**********************************************************************
There is nothing in this paradigm to suggest royalty. It is possible however that in previous lives the Soul has been in positions within it's culture, tribe, or society of origin in which the very nature of the position correlated to authority in some way so that whatever was emanating from the Soul by way of 'teachings' was not challenged.
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NN in the 1st House
With the NN in the 1st house, this Soul will be driven in this lifetime to find answers to the question: Who am I? Because so much of the Soul's identity in the past has been defined in relation to the other, there is a need in this lifetime to come to an understanding of who he is separate from the other. It is possible, with the Aries archetype, that there will be angry confrontations with others that will force this Soul to begin to actualize the 3rd house PPP - the need to learn how to articulate what it intuitively knows so that others can understand. Thus in this way the NN would act as a facilitator to the PPP. There would also be in this lifetime an intrinsic evolutionary need for freedom. Thus, with the Libran opposition signifying the past, it seems like the need would be to break free from relationship patterns that were no longer growth-promoting. These relationship patterns would be those based on inequality.
************************************************************
And dependency for those relationships, equal or not.................
*************************************************************
The confrontations that the Soul experiences in this lifetime would awaken the Soul to this inequality and thus awaken the Soul's desire for equal relationships. The struggle (because it is the NN and thus not familiar) would be to learn to define himself independently from the other and to learn to stand on his own. With the PPP in the 3rd, his way of doing this will be to pursue the knowledge systems that help him to more clearly define and articulate his intuitive sense of things. By doing this, he will gradually relate to others as equals, recognizing that his way/understanding is only one of many and that relationship is about 2 equals sharing with others what they know and 2 equals respecting each others differences.
One final thought
One thing I didn't address in this archetype is the possibility that this Soul will have the tendency of feeling/believing that it can't do it on its own. I think this feeling would contribute to the sense of inner isolation the Soul feels because he would not be claiming his full power. The Aries NN will force this Soul in this lifetime to begin to define himself as an independent being - and this according to the requirements of the PPP (ie, by pursuing more left-brained ways of understanding and communicating). This process will have the effect of alleviating that inner sense of isolation/loneliness.
Very good effort Ellen.
God Bless, Rad
Quote from: Rad on Dec 11, 2010, 09:23 AM
Hi Ellen,
Quote from: Ellen on Dec 10, 2010, 08:49 PM
Rad's Quote:There is nothing in this paradigm that correlates to loosing their own sense of individuality.
Hi Rad,
Is there a paradigm/archetype that would/could indicate this?
*****************************************************
There are a variety of possible paradigms that could correlate with this if we understand 'loosing their own sense of individuality' as a total loss of individual/ egocentric identity. Understood in exactly that way would then mean that the Soul has become something like an automaton that manifests as the Soul simply being as extension of others expectations. More darkly, this automaton like condition for the Soul could also occur as a function of being brainwashed by another or others. And the very worse cases would involve being 'possessed' by evil entities.
So this to me seems to signify the water trine. Cancer=ego. Scorpio=possible possession. Pisces=losing oneself. Is this correct?
******************************************************************
The Soul's sense of individuality is a function of the relationships that it forms with others in general, and an intimate other specifically, in which the asking and answering of the 9th House type of questions occurs.. The underlying issue, again, is the co-dependency upon others in general, and intimate others specifically, in terms of the asking and answering the 9th House questions.
I wanted to throw this out there so that I could get your response because I'm confused about the term co-dependency. I had always understood co-dependency to involve "losing oneself" or "giving oneself away". But you are saying this is not true. I guess I am confused about terms - from co-dependency to dependency to "losing oneself".........
************************************************************************
Seems it depends on how is going to understand the word co-dependency. To me this does not correlate to 'loosing oneself' at all. To me it means that one's sense of reality and identity is dependent on others to sustain one's sense of individual reality and identity. The core dynamics of course being dependency, dependent upon. That would be very different than literally 'loosing oneself. Loosing oneself, to me, means that one's entire sense of individual identity has been lost: no sense of individual identity at all.
Thank you, Rad. I believe I understand what you are saying and understand the difference now between co-dependence and losing oneself. In co-dependence, the main issue is believing that you can't stand on your own two feet or do it alone, thus you rely heavily on another. When you lose yourself, you literally have lost your connection to yourself - to who you are, and may even have allowed yourself to be taken over/possessed by another.
God bless,
Ellen
**********************************************************************
God Bless, Rad
Rad's quote: "Expand on the issue of honesty here if you can .........what challenges and why ?"
Hi Rad,
Thank you so much for your feedback. I will take time to reread and absorb your comments so that I can fully understand. With regard to the above quote, my thinking was that, because the Soul's desire and need has been to expand, and that this occurs through encountering other people and other cultures with different ideas and beliefs systems, etc., the Soul, as s/he evolves, will encounter places of untruth within him/herself. But also, I am thinking, that, in cases where the Soul resists this desire/need, s/he will hang onto old ideas and views that are not true for her/himself anymore. Thus there would be a dishonesty with oneself and this dishonesty would be thus present in relationships. This in turn would contribute to feelings of alienation. But then these feelings would be the driving force that eventually forced the Soul to look more deeply at its beliefs and to search for new answers. The more tenaciously the Soul hung onto its old beliefs and truths, the greater the confrontation that the Soul will encounter with the other in her/his life.
Is this correct? Is there more to it?
In kindness,
Ellen
Hi Ellen,
Quote from: Ellen on Dec 11, 2010, 04:00 PM
Rad's quote: "Expand on the issue of honesty here if you can .........what challenges and why ?"
Hi Rad,
Thank you so much for your feedback. I will take time to reread and absorb your comments so that I can fully understand. With regard to the above quote, my thinking was that, because the Soul's desire and need has been to expand, and that this occurs through encountering other people and other cultures with different ideas and beliefs systems, etc., the Soul, as s/he evolves, will encounter places of untruth within him/herself. But also, I am thinking, that, in cases where the Soul resists this desire/need, s/he will hang onto old ideas and views that are not true for her/himself anymore. Thus there would be a dishonesty with oneself and this dishonesty would be thus present in relationships. This in turn would contribute to feelings of alienation. But then these feelings would be the driving force that eventually forced the Soul to look more deeply at its beliefs and to search for new answers. The more tenaciously the Soul hung onto its old beliefs and truths, the greater the confrontation that the Soul will encounter with the other in her/his life.
Is this correct? Is there more to it?
******************************************************************
Excellent, and very correct Ellen.
********************************************************************
"So this to me seems to signify the water trine. Cancer=ego. Scorpio=possible possession. Pisces=losing oneself. Is this correct?"
**********************************************************************
Those archetypes would certainly be involved in such cases, but, of course, there is much more to it.
God Bless, Rad
Hi Rad,
Thank you so much for your feedback. I'm hoping to be able to look more closely at your responses tonight or tomorrow. I had to take a break to study for an exam I had today...
Peace and well wishes,
Ellen
Hi Maggie,
Of course you are welcome on our mb, so welcome to you !. The purpose of this mb is to teach and spread EA to anyone who honesty desires to learn it, and to spread it as far and wide as possible. Feel free to participate in any thread that you wish.
God Bless, Rad
Welcome Maggie, it's great to have you here..
God Bless,
Stacie
Hi Maggie!
I'm a beginning beginner, this is a safe place to learn!
Blessings, Heather
Hi Practice Chart Group,
For those who have been participating in our last practice paradigm I need to know if there is anything else that any of you want to add to it, or ask about it. And, if not, if we are ready to proceed into a new paradigm to practice with.
God Bless, Rad
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Hi Rad,
A couple of follow ups in red.... A very big thank you for your initial feedback and for the responses to come....
Peace,
Ellen
Yes, but it's also entirely possible in this paradigm that the Soul forms relationships with others in general, and an intimate other specifically, wherein there is a equally shared philosophical/ religious understanding of the universe, or Creation. Thus, the aloneness would not exist at all when this occurs.
Hi Rad, An intimate other specifically simply because this is one of the various "partner" possibilities and so this is just one way to look at it? Or should I always be thinking "intimate" with 7th house....? (I had always understood the 7th house to be about "partnership" and the 8th house to be more about intimacy, that is why I'm asking - to clear up some confusion on my part...
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Perhaps the sense of special purpose that this Soul has felt has prevented him from being able to let go of the role of teacher or student, thus perpetuating the inner feeling of loneliness born out of the intrinsic inequality of these kinds of relationships.
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Relative to just the Pluto in the 9th, and the S.Node in the 7th, there is nothing within those symbols that correlate to any sense of a 'special purpose'.
This one is also confusing to me... I thought intrinsic to the 9th house was a sense of special purpose? I am not understanding why it would not be so in this case? Something to do with the 7th house SN??? JWG quote: "As with Pluto in all natural fire houses, the Ninth House placement gives the individual the feeling that they have a special destiny or identity..." (p. 165, v. 1)
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There also seems to be another potential bind here. This Soul will have an intuitive understanding of something, but perhaps not yet the ability to communicate what he knows.
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This would only occur if the Soul was born into a culture, society, or tribe in which the consensus and prevailing 'beliefs' of those groups created a sense of alienation within the Soul. The sense of alienation is born out of the 9th House Pluto. When that becomes the operational archetype then, yes, the Soul is intuitively sensing something deeper, larger, and different than those existing and prevailing beliefs of the group that it is born into. This then can create the affect of what you have said: the ability to communicate what the Soul intuitively feels or knows.
Thinking out loud here...So the PPP in 3rd in this case would be...? Seeking information as a means of expanding on what s/he already knows???
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Combining this with the sense of special destiny this Soul may feel, and also with the tendency toward inequality and extremes in the Libra archetype, the Soul may feel superior to others, thus preventing the realization of the true intent of the Libran archetype: equality.
PPP in the 3rd House
The Soul in this lifetime is desiring to learn how to communicate to others what it intuitively knows. This desire, whether conscious or not, will continually lead this Soul to explore more left-brained, analytical systems of thought that help him to give voice to what he knows in ways that others can understand. I am thinking that the 3rd house archetype would indicate that in this lifetime he is less likely to travel far and wide but instead will encounter resistance in his more immediate community/environment and that it will be these encounters that will stimulate his need/desire to pursue ways and learning that will allow him to articulate what he knows so that others can understand.
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The existing paradigm does not correlate to restricting the travel of this Soul. Wherever the Soul is the archetype and analysis you are describing would occur. This polarity point can also mean, for example, that the Soul is literally designing a life in which it's existing philosophical understandings of life, which the Soul may attempt to prove and ram down people's throats in order for the Soul to feel secure, is aggressively challenged and confronted by others. The intent within this is of course for the Soul to expand upon it's own understanding of life, or to eliminate it completely and begin the process of searching for that philosophical meaning of life all over again.
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Perhaps in prior lives his position was such (royalty?) that he didn't need to be concerned with whether or not others understood him. But in this life that is not the case. Even his siblings will require that he explain his understanding in a way that they can understand.
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There is nothing in this paradigm to suggest royalty. It is possible however that in previous lives the Soul has been in positions within it's culture, tribe, or society of origin in which the very nature of the position correlated to authority in some way so that whatever was emanating from the Soul by way of 'teachings' was not challenged.
jWould prominence be a better word than royalty? You mention authority. I am wondering if that is in the form of, or the result of prominence. I am asking because I equate authority to Saturn. I am thinking 9th house/Jupiter might correlate more to prominence (I think this is what I was after when I came up with royalty...)
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And dependency for those relationships, equal or not.................
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[/quote]
Very good effort Ellen.
God Bless, Rad
[/quote]
Hi Maggie,
Welcome! I'm a newbie too... ;D
Welcome Maggie. Looking forward to learning with you!
Ellen
Hi Ellen,
Quote from: Ellen on Dec 14, 2010, 06:48 PM
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Hi Rad,
A couple of follow ups in red.... A very big thank you for your initial feedback and for the responses to come....
Peace,
Ellen
Yes, but it's also entirely possible in this paradigm that the Soul forms relationships with others in general, and an intimate other specifically, wherein there is a equally shared philosophical/ religious understanding of the universe, or Creation. Thus, the aloneness would not exist at all when this occurs.
Hi Rad, An intimate other specifically simply because this is one of the various "partner" possibilities and so this is just one way to look at it? Or should I always be thinking "intimate" with 7th house....? (I had always understood the 7th house to be about "partnership" and the 8th house to be more about intimacy, that is why I'm asking - to clear up some confusion on my part...
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The 7th House and Libra is the archetypes in which we INITIATE relationships with others which can include intimacy, and the 8th House and Scorpio correlate to making choices with whom to be with on a long term basis .. such as marriage. Thus, the 7th House/Libra correlates to initiating relationships and being in them for certain amounts of times which can include intimacy. The partners that emerge from this that we would consider possible 'life partners' would be an 8th House/Scorpio archetype.
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Perhaps the sense of special purpose that this Soul has felt has prevented him from being able to let go of the role of teacher or student, thus perpetuating the inner feeling of loneliness born out of the intrinsic inequality of these kinds of relationships.
**************************************************************
Relative to just the Pluto in the 9th, and the S.Node in the 7th, there is nothing within those symbols that correlate to any sense of a 'special purpose'.
This one is also confusing to me... I thought intrinsic to the 9th house was a sense of special purpose? I am not understanding why it would not be so in this case? Something to do with the 7th house SN??? JWG quote: "As with Pluto in all natural fire houses, the Ninth House placement gives the individual the feeling that they have a special destiny or identity..." (p. 165, v. 1)
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You are right. I forgot about this, but it is true. Sorry.
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There also seems to be another potential bind here. This Soul will have an intuitive understanding of something, but perhaps not yet the ability to communicate what he knows.
******************************************
This would only occur if the Soul was born into a culture, society, or tribe in which the consensus and prevailing 'beliefs' of those groups created a sense of alienation within the Soul. The sense of alienation is born out of the 9th House Pluto. When that becomes the operational archetype then, yes, the Soul is intuitively sensing something deeper, larger, and different than those existing and prevailing beliefs of the group that it is born into. This then can create the affect of what you have said: the ability to communicate what the Soul intuitively feels or knows.
Thinking out loud here...So the PPP in 3rd in this case would be...? Seeking information as a means of expanding on what s/he already knows???
*****************************************************
Yes, and that can include relative to that 9th House Pluto traveling to other places or lands for the same purpose.
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Combining this with the sense of special destiny this Soul may feel, and also with the tendency toward inequality and extremes in the Libra archetype, the Soul may feel superior to others, thus preventing the realization of the true intent of the Libran archetype: equality.
PPP in the 3rd House
The Soul in this lifetime is desiring to learn how to communicate to others what it intuitively knows. This desire, whether conscious or not, will continually lead this Soul to explore more left-brained, analytical systems of thought that help him to give voice to what he knows in ways that others can understand. I am thinking that the 3rd house archetype would indicate that in this lifetime he is less likely to travel far and wide but instead will encounter resistance in his more immediate community/environment and that it will be these encounters that will stimulate his need/desire to pursue ways and learning that will allow him to articulate what he knows so that others can understand.
******************************************************
The existing paradigm does not correlate to restricting the travel of this Soul. Wherever the Soul is the archetype and analysis you are describing would occur. This polarity point can also mean, for example, that the Soul is literally designing a life in which it's existing philosophical understandings of life, which the Soul may attempt to prove and ram down people's throats in order for the Soul to feel secure, is aggressively challenged and confronted by others. The intent within this is of course for the Soul to expand upon it's own understanding of life, or to eliminate it completely and begin the process of searching for that philosophical meaning of life all over again.
*********************************************************************
Perhaps in prior lives his position was such (royalty?) that he didn't need to be concerned with whether or not others understood him. But in this life that is not the case. Even his siblings will require that he explain his understanding in a way that they can understand.
**********************************************************************
There is nothing in this paradigm to suggest royalty. It is possible however that in previous lives the Soul has been in positions within it's culture, tribe, or society of origin in which the very nature of the position correlated to authority in some way so that whatever was emanating from the Soul by way of 'teachings' was not challenged.
jWould prominence be a better word than royalty? You mention authority. I am wondering if that is in the form of, or the result of prominence. I am asking because I equate authority to Saturn. I am thinking 9th house/Jupiter might correlate more to prominence (I think this is what I was after when I came up with royalty...)
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Yes, an example of that would be a teacher for example, or a minister, etc.
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God Bless, Rad
Thanks, Rad! All of what you wrote makes perfect sense to me. Thank you for sticking it out with me!
Peace,
Ellen
Hi Practice Chart Group,
For those who have been participating in our last practice paradigm I need to know if there is anything else that any of you want to add to it, or ask about it. And, if not, if we are ready to proceed into a new paradigm to practice with.
God Bless, Rad
Hi Rad,
I'm ready to move on.......
Ellen
Hi Rad,
Thank you for your feedback on my last Practice Chart; I did not have the time to re-do it, but as usual I learned a great deal from your feedback. I learned where I am missing some understandings in the Pluto dynamic, what I have gotten correct, areas that can be improved, and further understandings to grasp down the line, etc.
Yes, I am ready for the next paradigm, but will apply myself to it soon after I complete the Planetary Nodes assignment.
We have a few new people - welcome to all! - and I'm looking forward very much to this next Practice Chart assignment!
Hi Rad,Hi everyone! hoping you get this!
Hi there Rad..... and all those who welcomed the new student from over the pond! This is an attatchment 'cos I seem to delete the work when I try to post it.. so ..here goes!.Im not sure if my language/terminology is in harmony with the paridigm but Its my way to osmose the information (Sag Moon!)..Its basic ..acknowledging there are few examples of evolutionary states..but its a start.. so I'll just let it flow if thats ok.
The 11th house Pluto The souls evolutionary desires that have preceeded the present life.This 11th house soul has been learning to break free from the 10th house (Capricorn/Saturn) restrictions..its customs religions,taboos etc, the 11th house soul has an inherent ability to 'think outside the box' but must learn that this does not mean it has to necessarily stand outside the box.The 11th house soul has the capability to transform (Uranus) an idea/concept.. into a tangable/reality (Saturn).How the individual does this will be dependant on its evolutionary state and its level of pre-conditioning ....as is the nature of the 11th house Pluto; it can alienate itself totally, fearing its uniqueness will be lost...or worse.. that it will be ostrasized because of its view/ideals/etc. The 11th house soul must learn that it has the ability through the duality of its Saturn/ Uranus energy to be both objective and attatched by acknowledging and actualising its need to embrace the NN polarity (Libra/ Venus) and the group/relationship dynamic of the 7th. This is where the soul learns that it need not be 'alone' in its' aloneness' despite the past life traumas/crisis/..its concious/ unconcious memory of being ostracized for its views/beliefs/ideologies..whatever the resistance to move toward the polarity....If this soul can embrace that polarity it will realise that both 'revolution' and 'evolution' the Saturn/Uranus mix can quite happily walk together. The result of which can not only bring about transformation for the individual but for mankind as a whole. Many 11th house souls have the potential blue print for genius..and whatever potential a soul has.. is should be shared/ cherished and utilized in such a way as to benefit the collective.
SN in the 1st (Aires/Mars)This is mode of operation/egocentric structure that the soul has used to actualise the desires that are inherent in the 11th house soul in the very recent past. With the SN in the 1st house this soul is filled with an instinctive 'New born' energy..it rushes into the life with a feeling of special destiny..and asks itself..Who am ? What am I?.. A brand new cycle has begun..this soul will not be restricted! So..relative to the 11th house this 'rebel without a clue' instinctively/naturally throws itself towards another/others and life experience to have those questions answered...and consequently a validation of 'self'.Through the very natural magnetisim of the souls' Mars energy others are naturally drawn to them, and all manner of encounters will occur.Whether these encounters are physical/psychological/social ... true to their nature; when they have found those answers and they have exhausted their need to experience those others/other 1st house soul can quite happily be on its way again! Its instinctive nature and the evolutionary intent has been; and will be; that of freedom and adventure to discover who it is, what it is..to express its opinions with boundless energy; unhindered... but what goes up ,must come down and it is when crisis and disillusionment sets in and the why? cannot be answered from within 'self' ..it is then that the soul will learn its Pluto lesson! It has exhausted its own instinctual limitations and because of its inherent fear of losing its freedoms/uniqueness (11th house Uranus) and thereby its inner security /reality (Saturn) it will also realise that a balance will need to be struck... the need for personal freedom and the need to share self and by doing so nurture/care for 'self' (Aires) and others (Libra). By the accepting/embracing of another/others( NN 7th ) and the realisation that the unique individuality still remains and is met with unconditional acceptance of its differences..its unique self, its spontanaety.. this is where the soul learns the evolutionary lesson of 'acceptance and tolerance'..the concept of 'giving and recieving' of 'equality and relativity'..this lesson is learned through the NN polarity of the7th house.
PPP 5th house(Leo/Sun).This will correlate to the soul core desires and the bottom line of the souls evolution in the present life. It is through the power of the Leo/Sun energy of the 5th; that the 11th house soul can achieve its evolutionary goal. It is through sheer will and self determined effort, that the NN 7th polarity can be realised. This Sun/Leo energy endows this soul with an ability to harness these innovative ideas and inventions for the good of others/society/planet. Relative to the souls evolutionary state; distortions of this power have proven throughout history to be be disastrous and cataclysmic..The distortion occurs when there is development of egocentic self orientation... whereby; through self interest; these ideas/new concepts and beliefs benefit only the'self'.By willingness to find the balance through the 1st/7th polarity;and integrating self/sharing self.. and those ideas/concepts and ideologies this soul can transform (Uranus) these innovations/ ideas and concepts into a tangable reality(Saturn) It is through the power of the Sun and its 5th house energy with its inspiring Leonian strength/determination that the 11th house soul can then actualize its special destiny using both its objectivive viewpoint in a subjective way.... for the good of self/others/society/planet.
The NN in the 7th house (libra) the soul will corellate to how this evolutionary journey will be actualised, its mode of operation and the egocentric structure it has created to continue its evolutionary journey in this life.It is by comparison and 'self' evaluation (1st/Aires) this soul will determine its individuality (11th house) within a group/relationship. It will learn humility and an ability to share both its time (1st house) and its powerful and inspiring 5th house energy with another/group and relate in a balanced way to other/ others.. It is here that the soul learns that its uniqueness does not require it to stand outside the box..there is room inside and that its uniqueness, is in fact celebrated and accepted unconditionally.
Light for the journey Rad
Kindest, Maggie
Hi Maggie,
I posted your analysis so others could also see and share. You have made a wonderful first effort. All that you have stated is within the realm of the total archetypal possibilities of this paradigm. Good for you Maggie.
God Bless, Rad
Hi Practice Chart Group,
So it seems to be time to start a new paradigm. So our new paradigm will have Pluto in the 8th, the S.Node in the 10th, Pluto's polarity point of course is in the 2nd, and the N.Node is in the 4th.
So let's have a go at it.
God Bless,Rad
Hi Rad..Thank you so much for the encouragement.I'll have a go at the new one too..E A is just amazing!
Kindest
Maggie ;D
Hi Rad,
Here's what I've come up with so far...
Pluto in the 8th House
The Soul with Pluto in the 8th House has experienced lifetimes in which the means of growth has been the experiencing of power (what is within) and powerlessness (what is without). This Soul has been compelled to transcend the limits of her/his own power by merging with that which has existed outside of her/himself. In this way this Soul has provided for itself a means of knowing that it would not otherwise have had access to. As symbolized by the Scorpion, this process has led to experiences of profound betrayal that have themselves led to a deep inward reflection, led ever deeper by the often painful question, "Why?" Through this deep reflection, the Soul in time has gained the capacity for a clear understanding of both what is within and what is without; the Soul, through its own pain and suffering, has learned to identify the deep psychological truths of both itself and others. Understanding these truths, the Soul has then had to learn the way of the Phoenix: of stepping into the fire of its own emotional devastation and allowing itself to be purified and born anew. Ultimately, that is what this house is about: death (to one's old self - powerlessness) and rebirth (to one's new self - power).
SN in the 10th House
The SN in the 10th House has facilitated the Soul's intention in prior lifetimes. Because the 10th House is a cardinal archetype, right off the bat we know that the Soul's manner of proceeding has taken the form of 2 steps forward and 1 step back. Thus perhaps the Soul has had to learn through trial and error which external objects to merge with and which to stay clear of; those that proved to be harmful would have led to the 1 step back scenario. The 2 steps forward, 1 step back process can be understood as a process in which steps were taken into the external world (10th House), only to lead to "stings" (Scorpion), prompting 1 step back into the world of deep inner reflection. In this way, through this manner of learning, the Soul slowly learned to navigate its world. The world that this Soul has been navigating has been the world of social context and social expectation. With the 10th House, there is a need to find one's place within the larger social context. At yet another level, the question, "Who am I?" is being asked here. And this Soul's manner of finding the answer to that question has been to merge with external objects of power in the social arena, including position and status (Consensus), (what would the individuated Soul be merging with???? - perhaps political change groups?????), and spiritual traditions/lineages and gurus for the person in the Spiritual stage. There is also the question of gender identity with the 4th/10th axis. The Consensus Soul would not be consciously aware of this issue and would work to suppress it. The early individuated Soul would experience this quite intensely as a primary reason for the 1 step back part of the process, with the 1 step back hindering self-actualization in the social arena. Yet this experience would advance their evolution in the best cases. Later individuated would still experience the 1 step back, but they would emerge in a new way, in possession of their personal power and thus able to step into their social function. The person in the early spiritual stage would be thrown back on itself without realizing her/his full power in the world while the later stage spiritual Soul would emerge from the 1 step back process with both male and female aspects of itself fully integrated and thus from this place step into its social role. The 2nd stage spiritual Soul might experience disgrace of some sort in response to its failure to recognized the limits of what it in fact knew.
PPP in the 2nd House
The evolutionary intent of the Soul can be seen by the 2nd House. The primary archetype of the 2nd House is self-sufficiency. As the Soul experiences the realities of powerlessness that s/he encounters in the external world, and as these experiences throw her/him back in on her/himself, s/he begins to recognize the importance of learning self-sufficiency; rather than being at the mercy of the larger social context - rather than trying to find one's place by fitting into something outside her/himself - s/he begins to uncover her/his own values - her/his own bottom lines. And from this place emerges the possibility of self-sustainability. The 2nd House is also about tunneling down one's perspective. So in a sense what the Soul is needing to do is to withdraw her/his attention from the external world of the 10th House and direct it inwardly, towards her/his own internal bottom line. What do I believe (as distinct from what the world tells me I should believe)?
NN in the 4th House
The means of realizing the evolutionary intent of the PPP, the Soul relies on the NN as the facilitator of this intention. The 4th House is the house that symbolized ego and self-image, and also family. Whereas the 10th House SN could be said to have been a citizen of the particular culture in which it lived, the parameters of the 4th House Soul is much more limited - to that of home/family/mother - and to the ego development that arises naturally from these more fundamental structures. This Soul is needing to understand itself as distinct from its social role for further growth to occur and perhaps to avail itself to a much smaller group of people. In terms of the 2 steps forward and 1 step back manner of proceeding, the Soul, during the 1 step back phase, would retreat to the smaller (and hopefully more nurturing) realm of family to begin the necessary process of determining just who it is and thus from there understanding how it can meet its own needs (as opposed to meeting those needs through the process of merging with external sources of power). If gender switching were manifest and accepted (individuated/spiritual), then this Soul's values could be determined by a large extent by the discovery and acceptance of the inner reality, assuming the larger culture was biased against such expression. In the case of a Consensus Soul, I am wondering how this would play out? Would the valued be defined, in a sense, by the very denial of who s/he is? And would the family be the primary source of support for this denial? In other words, the family would still be the "womb" to which the Soul retreated, but they would support an essential denial. The other question I have is, would the family always be a source of support? What if it were not? The Soul is thrown back on the family due to some form of social betrayal, yet the family itself is a source of betrayal. In this case, this Soul is then being asked to develop its value system independent of anyone else and thus s/he is completely on her/his own with regard to self-sustenance. In this case the need for this Soul is to learn the s/he can be her/his own source of self-sufficiency"¦"¦"¦"¦.?
Thanks, Rad. Looking forward to your feedback"¦.
Hi Rad, All,
I am going to try to get to this practice chart but it may take me longer than usual bc of the holiday rush with the children and family. Plus, my computer charger broke and I have to borrow a charger in order to keep it powered. Hopefully I will be getting a new mac charger soon.
I just wanted you to know that I am gonna try, but it wont be as timely as my last two.
Thanks,
Dhyana
Hi Ellen,
Quote from: Ellen on Dec 18, 2010, 04:49 PM
Hi Rad,
Here's what I've come up with so far...
Pluto in the 8th House
The Soul with Pluto in the 8th House has experienced lifetimes in which the means of growth has been the experiencing of power (what is within) and powerlessness (what is without).
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This is a descriptive statement. EA requires an understanding as to the why of anything. Any EA analysis must start with an understanding about the prior life desires that the Soul has had, and why. Thus, with the 8th House Pluto what has the Soul been desiring, and why, within the archetypal parameters of the 8th House ? Even using those words about power and powerlessness why would the Soul desire that ? And, within that, what constitutes power and powerless in this archetype ?
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This Soul has been compelled to transcend the limits of her/his own power by merging with that which has existed outside of her/himself.
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Why has the Soul been compelled to do that, and what is the evolutionary purpose or intent of merging with that which has existed outside of itself ? If that occurred what would then happen, and for what reasons ? The use of the word 'merging' must be understood in the context of the 8th House Soul forming 'relationships' to a variety of symbols that correlate with the Soul's desire to grow, to metamorphose it's existing state of reality. This requires a inner confrontation within itself relative to the limits of what it already is and knows about itself, or it can require, if inner denial is in place about the nature of it's existing reality that manifests as a compulsion to sustain that existing reality at all costs, as external confrontation in which the nature of that inner resistance is then realized.
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In this way this Soul has provided for itself a means of knowing that it would not otherwise have had access to.
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This is one way. It is entirely possible within the 8th House Pluto archetype for the Soul itself, within itself, to realize that nature of it's own existing limitations, the reasons for those limitation, and desiring from within itself to access whatever will symbolize growth and evolution beyond those limitations.
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As symbolized by the Scorpion, this process has led to experiences of profound betrayal that have themselves led to a deep inward reflection, led ever deeper by the often painful question, "Why?"
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What is the Souls intent of creating betrayals to itself leading to the question why ? And exactly what is the answer to that why relative to the Soul's need to create betrayal at all ? And, of course, the 8th House Pluto Soul has commonly betrayed others. So, again, why ?
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Through this deep reflection, the Soul in time has gained the capacity for a clear understanding of both what is within and what is without; the Soul, through its own pain and suffering, has learned to identify the deep psychological truths of both itself and others. Understanding these truths, the Soul has then had to learn the way of the Phoenix: of stepping into the fire of its own emotional devastation and allowing itself to be purified and born anew. Ultimately, that is what this house is about: death (to one's old self - powerlessness) and rebirth (to one's new self - power).
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Why does the 'old self' correlate with powerlessness , and the 'new self' with power ? It there has been emotional devastation in prior lives what has been the cause ? The evolutionary intent for ? And is it not also possible within this archetype for the Soul to have caused emotional devastation to others ? And, if so, why ? What has been the cause ? The intent ?
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SN in the 10th House
The SN in the 10th House has facilitated the Soul's intention in prior lifetimes. Because the 10th House is a cardinal archetype, right off the bat we know that the Soul's manner of proceeding has taken the form of 2 steps forward and 1 step back. Thus perhaps the Soul has had to learn through trial and error which external objects to merge with and which to stay clear of; those that proved to be harmful would have led to the 1 step back scenario. The 2 steps forward, 1 step back process can be understood as a process in which steps were taken into the external world (10th House), only to lead to "stings" (Scorpion), prompting 1 step back into the world of deep inner reflection. In this way, through this manner of learning, the Soul slowly learned to navigate its world. The world that this Soul has been navigating has been the world of social context and social expectation. With the 10th House, there is a need to find one's place within the larger social context. At yet another level, the question, "Who am I?" is being asked here. And this Soul's manner of finding the answer to that question has been to merge with external objects of power in the social arena, including position and status (Consensus), (what would the individuated Soul be merging with???? - perhaps political change groups?????), and spiritual traditions/lineages and gurus for the person in the Spiritual stage.
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It is not a matter of "merging" with objects of power within the world at all here. The 10th House archetype requires learning the rules of the road in any society of birth in order to actualize a work or career. This then requires concrete steps to be taken over a period of time ( 10th House correlates with time ). So, for example, let's say the 8th House Pluto desired within itself to become a psychologist. Even though the Soul may indeed be a 'natural psychologist' because of the prior lifetimes that lead to a natural understanding of human psychology, the Soul would then have to understand how to actualize that perceived inner capacity within the context of the 'rules of the road' in the society of birth. And then make a decision to either go through the steps necessary to actualize it, or not. In other words, it can't just happen through merging with becoming a psychologist without taken those concrete steps to do so.
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There is also the question of gender identity with the 4th/10th axis. The Consensus Soul would not be consciously aware of this issue and would work to suppress it. The early individuated Soul would experience this quite intensely as a primary reason for the 1 step back part of the process, with the 1 step back hindering self-actualization in the social arena. Yet this experience would advance their evolution in the best cases. Later individuated would still experience the 1 step back, but they would emerge in a new way, in possession of their personal power and thus able to step into their social function. The person in the early spiritual stage would be thrown back on itself without realizing her/his full power in the world while the later stage spiritual Soul would emerge from the 1 step back process with both male and female aspects of itself fully integrated and thus from this place step into its social role. The 2nd stage spiritual Soul might experience disgrace of some sort in response to its failure to recognized the limits of what it in fact knew.
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The 8th House Pluto in relation to the 10th House S.Node is a Soul that has already been spending a great deal of time within the same gender. It is the 4th House N.Node that can correlate with the evolutionary need to switch genders for a series of lifetimes. When this is the case, which it often is, the Soul will simply feel an inner foreignness to the new gender at birth. This will be true at all Evolutionary levels or conditions of evolution. There is no general 'rule' that dictates how the Soul will deal with that inner foreignness. One must look at the totality of the birth chart of each to know how that will be responded too, and for what reasons.
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PPP in the 2nd House
The evolutionary intent of the Soul can be seen by the 2nd House. The primary archetype of the 2nd House is self-sufficiency. As the Soul experiences the realities of powerlessness that s/he encounters in the external world, and as these experiences throw her/him back in on her/himself, s/he begins to recognize the importance of learning self-sufficiency; rather than being at the mercy of the larger social context - rather than trying to find one's place by fitting into something outside her/himself - s/he begins to uncover her/his own values - her/his own bottom lines. And from this place emerges the possibility of self-sustainability. The 2nd House is also about tunneling down one's perspective. So in a sense what the Soul is needing to do is to withdraw her/his attention from the external world of the 10th House and direct it inwardly, towards her/his own internal bottom line. What do I believe (as distinct from what the world tells me I should believe)?
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The core archetype of the 2nd House is one about one's on inner relationship to oneself. Within that what one needs for that inner relationship to be realized and actualized. Those 'needs' then correlate with a combination of learning how to supply one's own needs leading to being relatively self reliant, with the real 'needs' that external conditions can only meet in order for that inner relationship to be fully developed. In turn this then correlates to what will constitute 'meaning' for the Soul, the meaning for one's life, and, in turn, what the Soul will then value. This includes one's inner sexual relationship with oneself, and what then constitutes sexual meaning for the Soul: what the Soul needs sexually from others as a function of the Soul's inner relationship to it's own sexual nature.
Relative to this paradigm this all means that the Soul's orientation to the world, and it's inner self, is being fundamentally metamorphosed in the current life. What had constituted meaning before is now totally changing. How the person has been in relationship to others in totally changing. How the person is in the world at large, and for what reasons, is totally changing. What the person has valued before is totally changing. The Soul's orientation to it's own sexuality is totally changing.
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NN in the 4th House
The means of realizing the evolutionary intent of the PPP, the Soul relies on the NN as the facilitator of this intention. The 4th House is the house that symbolized ego and self-image, and also family. Whereas the 10th House SN could be said to have been a citizen of the particular culture in which it lived, the parameters of the 4th House Soul is much more limited - to that of home/family/mother - and to the ego development that arises naturally from these more fundamental structures. This Soul is needing to understand itself as distinct from its social role for further growth to occur and perhaps to avail itself to a much smaller group of people. In terms of the 2 steps forward and 1 step back manner of proceeding, the Soul, during the 1 step back phase, would retreat to the smaller (and hopefully more nurturing) realm of family to begin the necessary process of determining just who it is and thus from there understanding how it can meet its own needs (as opposed to meeting those needs through the process of merging with external sources of power). If gender switching were manifest and accepted (individuated/spiritual), then this Soul's values could be determined by a large extent by the discovery and acceptance of the inner reality, assuming the larger culture was biased against such expression. In the case of a Consensus Soul, I am wondering how this would play out? Would the valued be defined, in a sense, by the very denial of who s/he is? And would the family be the primary source of support for this denial? In other words, the family would still be the "womb" to which the Soul retreated, but they would support an essential denial. The other question I have is, would the family always be a source of support? What if it were not? The Soul is thrown back on the family due to some form of social betrayal, yet the family itself is a source of betrayal. In this case, this Soul is then being asked to develop its value system independent of anyone else and thus s/he is completely on her/his own with regard to self-sustenance. In this case the need for this Soul is to learn the s/he can be her/his own source of self-sufficiency"¦"¦"¦"¦.?
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All of that is possible, and more. Each case is unique to itself in the case of gender switching. The core archetype here, in combination with the natal Pluto, it's polarity point, and the 10th House S.Node is one of a total change, evolution, within the Soul of how it has been in the world, and how it learning how to be in the world in this life. There is simply so much to this that needs to be understood in full. For example, the entire archetype of 'judgments' and what has been the prior basis of those judgments. This of course includes self judgments, and why. Within this the entire archetype of guilt, and what has caused prior life guilt, and why. This in combination includes projecting judgments on others and for what reasons, and causing others to feel guilty, and for what reasons. Within this the issue of depression, and what has caused depression before, and why ? Within all of this is the issue of ambitions, and how ambitions has been actualized prior to the current life.
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Thanks, Rad. Looking forward to your feedback"¦.
Ellen: You are making a great effort to understand EA. My hat is off to you because of. And it is in that spirit that I am now trying to help you think ever more deeply, realize ever more deeply, the fuller dimensions of the archetypes in the current paradigm we are working with. Every step you are making in your efforts is leading to just that.
God Bless, Rad
OMG, Rad! Thank you (!) for your feedback. I am actually laughing quite hard because I really thought I had gotten it! I am so, so thankful for your feedback! It shows me that there is so much MORE than I have been understanding. And even though I thought I was getting it, somehow I always felt FRUSTRATED. So I will think about what you have written, do some reading, see what others post and then try again!
Warmly,
Ellen
Hi Rad,
I would like to post a well written analysis.
But in some places I expressed my thinking in a "kindergarten" way because I know that other way I am not able to transmit my thinking in English without leading to misunderstandings. In other cases I didn't find the correct english structure or the precise word, but I am concerned with exposing my reasoning by unfolding it, in order to know if I am in the right course.
It would be better if I only had Pluto1 in English, but I am reading it in Portuguese; and then I think in Spanish . . .what a mess!
For me, I think,it's a way to overcome limitations and humiliate my ego in a public, group situation [Moon in Gemini in 8th House, gibbous inconjunct Jupiter in Scorpio in 1st H.; Jupiter in FP inconjunct to Uranus (conjunct Moon)]. (I would only hope not needing harder or less safe situations to it. )
But you deserve something better. I am really sorry and very grateful.
I unite to the community prayer you propose. Best wishes and happy holiday to you too.
Pluto in 8th House, South Node in 10th House. PPP in 2nd House, NN in 4th.
Pluto in 8th House
This soul is and has been trying to face and overcome her own limitations, the limits of her self, of who she is in opposition to what she is not.
The evolutionary intent has demanded, and demands the experience os these limitations and its metamorphosis in order to evolve.
Soul is - and have been in prior lives - becoming aware of forces, of power beyond herself; aware of other's resources, other's values and above all of universal forces.
This awareness has created and is still promoting the desire to evolve past its own limits.
The way she intended to transform these limitations was establishing realtionships with symbols that representd what she wanted or needed in order to evolve.
In this process she has experimented power and powerlessness. Power because of she already is. Powerlessness because of awareness of limitations (that has promoted evolution), and also because her own resistance to metamorphosis.
I mean, if her merging with symbols of power leads to metamorphosis, her power is increased in an evolutionary sense.
If this merging is only a fusion, or a way to absorbing external power without internal transformation, it would had and will have as a result a distortion manifested as manipulation or betrayal (she betrayals other people).
In any case she is learning to get power from these symbols.
The need of merging, of relating to them may be compulsive. Compulsion may be caused by resistance to get rid of old patterns that provided emotional security.
But we can't prevent evolution, only delaying it. Resistance, or even compulsion creates suffering and/or attraction of cataclismic events or difficult relatioships.
Guilt may also be the cause of some compulsions.
Only the individual chart and experience will add precision in determination of hte karmic and evolutionary reasons of it.
Other fundamental need for this soul is finding out the causes, the deep motivations of anything. Asking Why? is a leading course and a leit motiv in her life.
Knowledge is power for her, in the best or in the worst sense.
In an undistorted way it is not only a matter of gaining power, but of attaining this power penetrating the core of all dynamics; and living it as a way to transcend limitations, to metamorphosis.
This need and ability to understand every core dynamics produces a individual who is a spontaneous psychologist who understands and helps others, but also a potential manipulator in relationships, or both.
It depends on karmic and evolutionary conditions.
The path of evolution is not directly progressive. This soul threads it through cyclical alternation of experiences of power and powerlessness.
These cycles are caused by the antithetical desires in the soul.Desires of symbolical death and rebirthing in a new level, like the caterpillar needs competely die in order to become a butterfly.
The separative desire requires periods of stabilization of the new level and protection of the expanded limits. So far it may be healthy, evolutionary proces is slow and hasten it may be dangerous.
But the protected areas may become stagnant.
Even in a healthy process soul will feel so in certain moments. The meaning, the goal,would be to promote deep analysis in order to understand who she is, why it is so, what is the evolutionary intent.
SN in 10th House
Some reflections:
-I wonder how 8th House fixity realtes to 10th House archetypal need of structure and stability. And therefore, what degree of chaos this soul can tolerate.
8th house metamorphosis demands chaos, obsolete patterns must be destroyed. On the other hand, in 10th house archetype desire to access chaos often creates a reaction of more control, external or internal.
Karmic and evolutionary conditions will reflect that, SN sign and ruler would provide further information.
-the search for causes can have support in SN ability and need of reflection. Self analysis, social analysis and motivations could have been deep and resposible.
-10th H. resposibility and respect for rules could help in appropriate choices and commitments.
But distortions of all of that are also possible.
In her search of knowing and transforming limitations, in former lives this soul has been learning to establish her individuality and authority in a social context.
This involved learning to relate and integrating her identity in a social structure.
I wonder how this integration was made. Was it within the Saturnian, structuring limits of this house, of the social context?; Was it by means of an evolutionary osmosis, a metamorphosis?; or was it by fusion with distorted ways of obtaining power, understanding how the system works in order to manipulate?
Again, karmic and evolutionany conditions will reveal that, other factors in the chart will help to trace possibilities.
With pluto in 8th House, this soul is becoming aware of the limits between who she is and who or what is she not. In 10th house the limits and parameters are given by social function or position. So, in former lives she has learned to define individuality by means of, or within, the social function.
How did she done it? Some hypothesis are:
a)Social position has determined, fixed, her limits preventing its transformation and the attainment of higher levels of evolution. That happened because she was attached to her need of emotional security. Then powerlessness and stagnation was felt.
This could have promoted reflection leading to awareness of her motivations and internal dynamics that started the evolutionary process and metamorphosis or moved it on.
Negatively, depression or pessimism would have been the result.
-Another factor that could have blocked the evolutionary impulse to relate with social sources of power in a transformative way is guilt.
In this paradigm there may be either
-learned guilt caused by cultural or social judgements projected upon the soul or introjected by her.
-or natural guilt caused by violations to Natural Law manipulating others in realtionships, or improperly acting to obtain social power or success, or betraying.
b)Soul merged with sources of social power as a way to expand her limits
b.1.-She could do it learning lessons of self-determination and discipline in order to find a social position and learning to be responsible.
This would have provided her awareness of power, understanding of social functioning, and the ability to attain a position of control, not allowing society to control her.
This could have lead to a transformative attitude, in which the individual employs her power plus the
social power incorporated (or learned) to help society to evolve.
In consensus state, she helps society to evolve towards an honest and responsible consensus.
In individuated, helping to decondition from judging or reactionary man made laws and morality.
In spiritual state her spiritual authority would help humanity to realign with Natural Law.
In that case, 10th's house arena would have been a safe container for the power unfolded or obtained.
b.2.-The individual learned self determination and discipline but in a separative, egocentric way.
She also learned how social system works employing 8th house Pluto ability to penetrate in its basic structure. But she uses it in order to manipulate the system, or people, in her own benefit. Goals justify means is a justification.
If her understanding of system is in finding out that corruption, for example, is the "modus operandi", then her way of gaining power would be corrupting herself. Or destroying who stands in her way.
Projected guilt, or resentment and revenge desire based on former frustrations or betrayals may be the motives or the justification of these behaviors.
Over identification with career in former lives may also be a reason for that, or can create karmic problems in future lives if it is so currently.
c)Merging with social power symbols occured absorbing consensus limiting patterns and parameters.
Powerlessness and cyclical confrontations can arise.
Guilt may be the cause, because of an inner feeling of not deserving more. Or unconscious memories of persecutions because of violations man made rules, or even only transgression of man made rules.
This individual is potentially a repressor of other people, consciously or not.
Awareness of mortality from an egocentric point of view can stimulate an opportunity sense and further individual evolution or promote it in the social arena.
Positively, awareness of a limited amount of time triggers emotional maturation and reflection, consciousness of the need of change and implementing the proper steps to it.
Pluto in 8th house promotes apprehension of timeless values, 10th house SN tries to apply them temporally, worldly.
Negatively, because of preponderance os a separative point of view, depression or frustrations may arise.
PPP in 2nd House
For evolution to proceed this soul needs developing self reliance and recognizing her/his own values in order to attain personal independece. Over-identification with other's values must be overcome.
Situations generated by NN in 4th house will help to attain an inner sense of self worth based on internal security.
In a general sense she needs learning to reduce or eliminate dependences on external sources of power.
The soul learns to allow that his deep self analysis and merging with power symbols produces a metamorphosis in her own resources or values, so that she doesn't depend anymore.
Looking within to find out her power, becoming her own symbol of transformation she will find what she really needs, and what are her essential needs of survival, not only in a material, biological or social sense.
That involves discernement between material, emotional and spiritual needs, and an internal definition of her way of living in the world, integrated but not depending.
This way, an identification of her essential identity will replace social masks and over identification with social roles.
She would become self motivated and able to encourage other's development without manipulating or allowing dependences on her.
NN in 4th House
Learning to develop internal security as a base of identity makes self reliance possible.
The individual is learning to see herself without the traps, delusions and security based on social function or career, and attains a self actualization not dependent on success or status.
Familial situations or problems, with parents or children will provide emotional lessons that promote self analysis based on internal emotions. Accepting that she establishes internal security and eliminates dependece on external sources os power.
Professional problems, obstacles to success or loss of social position at birth can also be the opportunity for that learning. She would propably have to face both type of situations.
And the causes may be founded in evolutionary need or consequence of former abuses of power or manipulative attitudes.
Again, deep self analysis and self support is the goal; also reflection about how career provides emotional security.
If she reacts positively, this reflections will allow her to find within the source of power (although she knows that other sources exist, the frog is already out of the well), and becoming her own symbol of transformation.
Learning to internalize her need of security she develops a detached attitude with regard to possesions and success.
She learns also that values and convictions that rule her life are subjective, and this learning diminishes over-identification with other's or social values. Thus she doesn't judge or repress herself or other people according to the social morality criteria; instead of that her behavior will be ruled by ethical criteria, universal principles, based on Natural Law.
Self analysis and self knowledge lead to accept her responsibility and better manifest the potential of commitment.It would also be the founfation of self determination and honesty, which means not more manipulating.
God Bless
Mirta
Hi Mirta,
First, there is no need for you to have to apologize because of trying to work with English. You are conveying yourself just fine. Everything in your analysis of the current paradigm is possible within the total spectrum of the archetypes that we are working with. You are making a wonderful effort, and I can already see the progression of your capacity to synthesize and integrate the paradigm itself. I remember Wolf sharing about his books going into so many different languages, and how the nature of the languages themselves altered in some ways the nature of what he wrote. And, not only that, but how the nature of the languages would change how long or short the Pluto books would be. If I remember correctly his first Pluto book in English was something like 340 pages. Yet in German that went up to almost 500 pages. If I remember right the Portuguese one was less than 300 pages, etc, etc, etc. So for you to be reading it in Portuguese then thinking it in Spanish, and then trying to write it in English is quite a feat ! In any case your are progressing very well Mirta.
God Bless, Rad
HI Rad,
Thank you so much for your feedback. I am happy with it.
Rad, portuguese version of Pulto 1 has 399 pages. Portuguese and spanish are extended and descriptive languages. Many times we use a complete sentence to say what you express with a verb and a preposition; English defines very much with prepositions (German too). And that's why I use that kindergarten style, because I don't manage it and I know that if I change only one word I am not saying what I mean.
I also remember reading somewhere Jeffrey saying that he didn't accept a German translation and that he doesn't matter with language correction, but with the meaning. I believe portuguese version is correct in meaning (I don't find conceptual differences with the DVD course or Deva's book), although it is not fluent to read. But is still Pluto 1, and that is important.
Thanks again, Rad.
God Bless
Mirta
Hi Mirta,
Gosh, thanks for letting me know about the version in Portuguese. I just remembered it wrong from Wolf had said I guess. I do remember he was upset with the German version because they had managed to reverse on of the core principles in EA. I don't remember what that was exactly though. I remember too the French version had quite a time of it since they don't really have a word for Soul either. I know there used to be a Spanish version too, but don't know if that one is in print anymore. I do know too the Bulgarian version I have was very good at translating the core principles accurately.
God Bless, Rad
Yes, Rad, the Spanish version of Pluto is out of print.
It seeems like Uranus also, I don't find it in the Internet, but somebody told me that in Spain there would be some copies available.
God Bless
Mirta
Happy New Year ;D
H Rad, here's my plug at the new chart..a little long and drawn out!. I think the 8th house qualities were working overtime here Ha Ha! Im wondering if i should bring it into a client type context?? ..Not sure?. Hoping the New Year brings peace and enlightenment for all at E.A.
The core evolutionary desires of the 8th house Pluto soul ; those which have preceeded the current life. The Scorpio 8th house individual will desire to experience the lessons of Who it is..what it is..and more importantly; what it is not and will never be. It is through the duality of Pluto (Scorpio/soul) and its mix of 'lower'octave Mars (Aires/Self) that the individual will desire to understand the complexities of its own essence/existance in order measure its personal power in this context...Its innate ability to penetrate/analyize/merge with the body/mind of another/others in order to compare/validate its personal power in the larger reality (10th house). Mars/Aires asks WHO am I? and Pluto/Scorpio asks the deeper question..WHY am I?..this duality ensures this soul is 'well equipped' to learn its evolutionary lessons...the Mars/Aires and its energetic Who? and the deep and penetrating Scorpio/Pluto Why?.. a spirit/flesh duality. The 8th house soul will use its instinctive/impulsive(Aires) and the analytical/psychological (Pluto) 'power' to experience/examine/understand and evaluate its inner self/ personal power in order to understand its relativity/security within society/universe. The 8th house desires to experience ALL relationships/associations with another/others/God/ess. This ability to penetrate/osmose the body/mind of self/another/others and in extremes; the essence of another; can/does create distortion and trauma.. In its desire/search for true security (4th house) the experience/understanding of these 10th house lessons will depend on the souls evolutionary state..and sadly in true Scorpio style 'That which is hidden needs to be unearthed ' .. To be a 'God' amongst men has been the pre-occupation of man throughout human existance.The alchemists, the satanists, the religious zelots; illuminati, the rituals of sex, magic/ human sacrifice, some present day geneticists..all manner of distortions..in an attempt to obtain ultimate power/ immortality and the ' psuedo' security of the 10th .. It is only through the emotional body; the 4th house ppp that true security is learned and understood. All souls will naturally experience the 8th house lessons; Pluto is the soul. We all experience the grief of losing a loved one through physical death or the emotional loss of another.. the emotional/psychological pain this brings, the loss of family/friends/lovers.. even our beloved pets.. With the egocentric structure and mode of operation being SN 10th (Saturn/Capricorn) the soul has desired to confront its mortality; its limitations ..that which it is not. It is by desiring/experiencing the evolutionary lessons of the 10th ..that the soul desires to learn the true extent of our mortality/ power..we are powerless in the face of life and death....we are as mortal as the next man. Here all souls are faced with the 8th house futility... the limitation of the 10th house reality/flesh...and the needs of that reality/ flesh. The often painful lessons of the 10th teach us that we cannot control the nature of all things ....in the 10th we come face to face with our limitations..we cannot prevent the death of another soul. This distortions of this train of thought..positively or negatively will be dependant on the choices we make. 2nd house PPP The core evolutionary desires that have proceeded the present life..The soul would naturally gravitate towards the 2nd house (Taurus/Venus) PP specifically because of the 2nd houses' natural insticts toward self presevation, personal security and ultimately the self reliance/ power to maintain that level of 'earthly' survival (Taurus)..Scorpio wants to examine the dynamics of the 2nd...in its need for both security and power.What it really finds here is the true meaning of 'relationship'. Here it learns to empower itself/another/others within the boundaries of 10th house reality. The soul learns to honour and value self, to love/understand self; to love/understand another/others in a healthy and simplistic way. Through the 2nd house polarity; we learn how to transmute (Scorpio) our personal power for the good of self/other/others and the collective.The soul will desire to experience and understand the true nature of another, learn to positively enhance the mind of another ..to naturally experience the body of another with selfless motivation, with no hidden agendas: Aren't we all changed through the power of love? (Venus). Many emotionally mature 8th house souls have used their intense sense of purpose and personal power through their relationships/associations in business/science/neighbourhoods/ etc, they have recognised the needs of others and have shared the self/knowledge/ and used that in a philanthropic way.The need for the evolving ego to experience its full potential will be done by working toward the NN 4th house(Cancer) It is through the emotional body that the lesson of true security is felt and understood..The 8th house evolutionary intent to find inner security is done so through the 4th house polarity. It has 'uncovered' and understood in the10th/2nd its power to enpower/sustain self/another in that 10th house reality. In the 4th it finds the true meaning of security..inner security .Here the soul learns to feel secure to feel self assured/self reliant and no longer looks to control/manipulate/overpower another/others or any natural law in order to find security. It is here in the 4th that the soul experiences the natural balance/completion of the water triad Cancer/emotional, Scorpio/ psychological. It is here that it will acknowledge that at the end of its journey..when all seperating desires have been exhausted the soul will naturally merge again with the true and ultimate power and selfless/unconditional love of God/ess( 12th house/Pisces).
Light for your Journey
Thanks Rad!
Maggie
Hi Maggie,
Quote from: maggie on Dec 31, 2010, 11:14 AM
Happy New Year ;D
H Rad, here's my plug at the new chart..a little long and drawn out!. I think the 8th house qualities were working overtime here Ha Ha! Im wondering if i should bring it into a client type context?? ..Not sure?. Hoping the New Year brings peace and enlightenment for all at E.A.
The core evolutionary desires of the 8th house Pluto soul ; those which have preceeded the current life. The Scorpio 8th house individual will desire to experience the lessons of Who it is..what it is..and more importantly; what it is not and will never be. It is through the duality of Pluto (Scorpio/soul) and its mix of 'lower'octave Mars (Aires/Self) that the individual will desire to understand the complexities of its own essence/existance in order measure its personal power in this context...Its innate ability to penetrate/analyize/merge with the body/mind of another/others in order to compare/validate its personal power in the larger reality (10th house). Mars/Aires asks WHO am I? and Pluto/Scorpio asks the deeper question..WHY am I?..this duality ensures this soul is 'well equipped' to learn its evolutionary lessons...the Mars/Aires and its energetic Who? and the deep and penetrating Scorpio/Pluto Why?.. a spirit/flesh duality. The 8th house soul will use its instinctive/impulsive(Aires) and the analytical/psychological (Pluto) 'power' to experience/examine/understand and evaluate its inner self/ personal power in order to understand its relativity/security within society/universe. The 8th house desires to experience ALL relationships/associations with another/others/God/ess. This ability to penetrate/osmose the body/mind of self/another/others and in extremes; the essence of another; can/does create distortion and trauma..
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Why ? And what distortions and traumas would that be ?
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In its desire/search for true security (4th house) the experience/understanding of these 10th house lessons will depend on the souls evolutionary state..and sadly in true Scorpio style 'That which is hidden needs to be unearthed ' .. To be a 'God' amongst men has been the pre-occupation of man throughout human existance.The alchemists, the satanists, the religious zelots; illuminati, the rituals of sex, magic/ human sacrifice, some present day geneticists..all manner of distortions..in an attempt to obtain ultimate power/ immortality and the ' psuedo' security of the 10th .. It is only through the emotional body; the 4th house ppp that true security is learned and understood. All souls will naturally experience the 8th house lessons; Pluto is the soul. We all experience the grief of losing a loved one through physical death or the emotional loss of another.. the emotional/psychological pain this brings, the loss of family/friends/lovers.. even our beloved pets.. With the egocentric structure and mode of operation being SN 10th (Saturn/Capricorn) the soul has desired to confront its mortality; its limitations ..that which it is not. It is by desiring/experiencing the evolutionary lessons of the 10th ..that the soul desires to learn the true extent of our mortality/ power..we are powerless in the face of life and death....we are as mortal as the next man. Here all souls are faced with the 8th house futility... the limitation of the 10th house reality/flesh...and the needs of that reality/ flesh. The often painful lessons of the 10th teach us that we cannot control the nature of all things ....in the 10th we come face to face with our limitations..we cannot prevent the death of another soul. This distortions of this train of thought..positively or negatively will be dependant on the choices we make. 2nd house PPP The core evolutionary desires that have proceeded the present life..The soul would naturally gravitate towards the 2nd house (Taurus/Venus) PP specifically because of the 2nd houses' natural insticts toward self presevation, personal security and ultimately the self reliance/ power to maintain that level of 'earthly' survival (Taurus)..Scorpio wants to examine the dynamics of the 2nd...in its need for both security and power.What it really finds here is the true meaning of 'relationship'. Here it learns to empower itself/another/others within the boundaries of 10th house reality. The soul learns to honour and value self, to love/understand self; to love/understand another/others in a healthy and simplistic way. Through the 2nd house polarity; we learn how to transmute (Scorpio) our personal power for the good of self/other/others and the collective.The soul will desire to experience and understand the true nature of another, learn to positively enhance the mind of another ..to naturally experience the body of another with selfless motivation, with no hidden agendas:
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Selfless motivations, and no hidden agendas would not apply in the 2nd House polarity. The archetype of Taurus, the 2nd House, and the Taurus side of Venus is all about personal needs, and the inner relationship with oneself that creates those needs. Relative to the 8th House Pluto those personal needs can certainly correlate to 'hidden agendas' wherein the motives are in fact based on what the Soul/ self needs.
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Aren't we all changed through the power of love? (Venus). Many emotionally mature 8th house souls have used their intense sense of purpose and personal power through their relationships/associations in business/science/neighbourhoods/ etc, they have recognised the needs of others and have shared the self/knowledge/ and used that in a philanthropic way.The need for the evolving ego to experience its full potential will be done by working toward the NN 4th house(Cancer) It is through the emotional body that the lesson of true security is felt and understood..The 8th house evolutionary intent to find inner security is done so through the 4th house polarity. It has 'uncovered' and understood in the10th/2nd its power to enpower/sustain self/another in that 10th house reality. In the 4th it finds the true meaning of security..inner security .Here the soul learns to feel secure to feel self assured/self reliant and no longer looks to control/manipulate/overpower another/others or any natural law in order to find security. It is here in the 4th that the soul experiences the natural balance/completion of the water triad Cancer/emotional, Scorpio/ psychological. It is here that it will acknowledge that at the end of its journey..when all seperating desires have been exhausted the soul will naturally merge again with the true and ultimate power and selfless/unconditional love of God/ess( 12th house/Pisces).
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Ultimately yes that would be true. However, most Soul's on Earth have not reached the evolutionary place of total exhaustion of all separating desires. Given that fact what type of experiences would the Soul create for itself in order to learn the 4th House lessons ?
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From an organizational point of view it would be much better if you could at first say whatever you wish to say about the 8th House Pluto. Then, say whatever you wish to say about how those 8th House archetypes were actualized via the 10th House S.Node. From there you can share whatever you wish to say about the 2nd House polarity point, and, from there how this becomes actualized via the 4th House N.Node. A sequential presentation in this way makes it much easier to follow your thoughts.
A good effort Maggie.
God Bless, Rad
Hi Rad,
I've been away, and would still like to participate. Probably won't get to post until later in the week , but don't want to hold anything up here... Will the weekend be soon enough? Oh and likewise for the planetary nodes thread...
Thank you, Heather
Hi moutainheather,
That's just fine.
God Bless, Rad
Thank You Rad.. I'm on it! Venus in Gem and my mercury all over the place last week! ::)
Kindest Maggie
Hi Rad,
Just wanted you to know that I don't know if I'll be able to look further into this. I got acaught up in the Cap thread and now the crunch is on to find a source of income..... May possibly advertise to do some astrology readings but not sure..... All up in the air.....
Hopefully I will be able to do something, but just want you to know I might not be able to at this time...
Thank you for everything,
Ellen
Hi Ellen,
Certainly hope you can find a meaningful source of income Ellen.
God Bless, Rad
Hi Practice Chart Group,
I would like to know how many of you are wanting to continue with this thread, and for those who do, if you would like to begin a new paradigm.
God Bless, Rad
Hi Rad..Would love to have a go at another practice chart..I will finish up on the old one and also attend to the comments made by you regarding my last submission.
Maggie :)
Hi Rad and all,
I have had to skip this last paradigm, if I am able, I will participate in the next one.
Blessings, Heather
Hi Rad,
I want to continue with this thread. But right now I am going to travel. I will only be able to do the next practice the first week of february.
Thank you very much.
God Bless
Mirta
Rad, Yes, I am ready to begin a new paradigm. Thanks so much.
Thank you, Rad...
My best to you,
Ellen
I am not going to do the last one or this one, as I have actual( people) charts I am working on and do not have time. I will be checking in here however. So please don't wait on me this time around.
Thank you,
Dhyana
Hi Practice Chart Group,
Ok, let's do a new paradigm. Our new one will have a 7th House Pluto, the S.Node in the 6th, Pluto's polarity of course in the 1st, and the N.Node in the 12th.
Let's have a go at it ....
God Bless, Rad
Hello Everyone,
Tonight I looked at this thread and saw you all were starting a new paradigm and thought it would be okay to join in.
Rad, this is my go at the 7th house Pluto, SN 6th, PPP 1st and NN 12th. I haven't read or studied the Pluto book lately and may need to read more to get myself going. Thanks for the opportunity.
7th House Pluto
The 7th house Pluto soul has experienced many lifetimes where they have been valued (possibly used) for their need/desire to be fully intimate in relationship with others, most likely in a dependent way and thus have a sense of feeling unworthy, possibly useless unless they are in constant reliance/relationship with others. The soul has a desire to be powerful in relationship, or empowered, thus they have a deep sense of being disempowered in relationships and most likely were born into circumstances wherein they are cast into scenarios where they cannot easily get out of those relationships (marriage, business, familial). This also means they have been completely dependent/reliant on outer relationships to make they feel okay.
Now in the current life, they will be compelled, even forced to learn self-reliance, PPP, to balance their need for constant dependance on others. The way this will happen is by having many relationships in which they felt originally valued for their need to be close/dependent, only to be abandoned (in one form or another, even if it is within a relationship), forcing the soul to face their dependence issues.
In this life they are learning how to be deeply, intimately involved with others without losing themselves in the process of that intimacy, thus they would create current life scenarios where they may feel valued only when they are in relationship with others, then when others want to break free from the relationship, towards individuation, the soul will feel traumatized, thrown back on itself, forcing them to reevaluate and come to terms with their own inherent value and need for independence, freedom to explore and feel their drive/energy to act in their own best interest in terms of those they choose to relate with.
I NEED TO READ DIFFERENCE BETWEEN 2ND HOUSE AND 7TH HOUSE PLUTO, TO CLARIFY MY CHOICE OF WORDS (VALUE VS. RELATING?). THIS IS MY GO AT IT WITHOUT LOOKING IT UP.
S.Node in the 6th
Relative to a 7th house Pluto, a S.Node 6th house soul has a tendency towards guilt, especially in terms of their relationships with others. And yet the soul also possesses a discerning mental acuity, including a knack for organization, craftsmanship, devotion of some kind, quite possibly devotion towards the marriage archetype (7th house Pluto) or need for beauty, and will feel unconsciously comfortable in striving for perfection in their relationships, and most likely will have deeply ingrained critical voices, towards itself and others, and possible health issues which force the issue of dependence on others. Crises will arise for the individual, via health issues and their need for perfection from self and others, bringing the soul to a choice point (12th house NN). This soul also feels the need to be of service to others, to a fault, giving over their power in relationships via servitude.
These patterns/issues will manifest and begin resolving at different rates for each soul, depending on the consciousness stage of the soul (consensus, individuated, spiritual). A first stage spiritual may have near-death experience as a child, due to health issues, and have a spiritual awakening (12th house) which sets the karmic wheel of the soul in motion to access its NN polarity, and thus the ingrained patterns of the soul (Pluto SN) will begin to quickly shift in the soul's life towards some type of faith, or spiritual practice--compassion and the experience of oneness, and ultimate experience with God-Goddess. Amma Chi could be a good example of this--second stage spiritual I believe.
PPP in the 1st House
The evolutionary intent of a 7th house Pluto soul is to embrace their need/desire to fully experience themselves in relationship with itself. The soul has spent so many lifetimes focused on others, they have an inherent need to discover what makes them tick. The tendency to focus on others is strong and the soul will most likely go back and forth between the two houses, until the soul completely emerges itself in the 1st house, me, myself and I. In-to-me-see (definition of intimacy). Once the soul experiences itself, what drives it, including their sexual drive, and their drive to take action on whatever motivates them (cardinal house), they will experience freedom from the constraints of their past relationship patterns, and will be free to be in relationships in a healthy inter-dependent way.
NN in the 12th
The way this soul can access their 12th house NN will be through compassion in action, spiritual experiences via devotion to meditation, peace, free-will, possibly developing a style of meditation. This soul could be a civil-rights activist, a motivational spiritual speaker. The soul is learning compassion for others via the 12th house, bringing them out of the 7th house into a bigger framework to completely conceptualize, know, feel, be God. This soul will need to immerse itself into some form of spirituality as a means to transform its previous experiences and to heal the past.
I'm getting tired now, so the last piece here probably needs more.
Thanks again Rad.
Blessings,
Wendy
Hi Wendy,
First, great that you have joined our practice chart group. Your first effort is a good effort and does reflect a core understanding of the paradigm itself. The only exception I would take right now with what you shared is the 'near death experience' thing as a child. There is nothing in the paradigm that would symbolize this. Heath issues in general yes, but not such a specific thing as a near death experience. I would of course also strongly suggest that you do allow yourself to read the relevant sections in the JWG first Pluto book so as to deepen your understanding of the archetypes and how they interact via the specific paradigms that we use in our practice charts.
Good first effort Wendy !
God Bless, Rad
Yeah! Thank you Rad. I look forward to continued participation, reflection and study, and will continue to refine and use discernment with what I add based on my intuition.
Thanks,
Wendy
Hi Rad...Im unsure I've got this one down..comments ALWAYS welcomed..and will finish up on the last paradigm.
Maggie
Hi Maggie,
A very good effort. Your analysis is all within the realm of the archetypes within this paradigm.
God Bless, Rad
Pluto in the 7th house symbolizes a soul that feels secure while in relationship with others. And so compulsively feels the need to maintain relationships at all costs, which leads to extremities within the relationships and ultimately experiencing allot of pain and suffering as a result. In order to heal these wounds this person would need to embrace the polarity point (1st H) by recognizing that the only way they are to ever find balance in relationships with others, is to realize that time alone is essential to their well being. Because it is through the courageous act of initiating a relationship with themselves first, that the healing can truly begin. Once they start exploring: through initiating new experiences, a new landscape will emerge from the depths of their souls, and a greater awareness of their own unique individuality will likely form. This process will help the person then be able to be in relationships with others, but in a healthy way because they now have a stronger sense of self, who they are as an individual, what their needs are ect...
South Node in the 6th house symbolizes that this is a soul coming from a place where it has gained a strong sense of identity with it's work function and of being of service to others through whatever that work assignment is. In other words this soul is consumed by all the details of whatever their work is and therefore their awareness of who they are remains limited. The North Node in the 12th suggests that this person must look up at the night sky! Contemplate it for a while. They need to develop the spiritual realm as part of their every day reality, If they want to experience health and a sense of well-being in this life.
Hi treesha,
Your analysis is very brief and limited is scope but is fine for what it is. I would suggest that you read the archetypes in JWG's first Pluto book: Pluto through the houses. This will deeper your consciousness and allow for a much fuller understanding of this, and other paradigms, that we will be working with. Thanks for making the effort.
God Bless, Rad
Thanks Rad, for the feedback!
All,
If any of you wish to continue with our practice charts for beginner's please let me know.
God Bless, Rad
Hi Rad,
I wish to continue with this thread.
Right now I am going to begin with the last paradigm, as I have told you.
But as soon as I finish with it - next week-end I believe - I will be ready for the next one in the following week.
Thanks so much
Mirta
I would like to continue, as I just jumped back in and would like to practice. Thanks Rad.
WEndy
Hi Rad and Group
Thanks for the tolerance to my delay.
Rad,
Here is what I could see in this paradigm.Thanks for your assesment.
PLuto in 7th House, SN in 6th House
PPP in 1st House, NN in 12th House
Pluto in 7th House
This Soul is living a new cycle of evolution, and that has been already so in prior lifetimes.
We can see that not only because Pluto is in a cardinal house, but also because the Soul is initiating the archetypal phase form 7th to 12th House (LIbra to Pisces), phase of objective orientation.
Thus, the individual is learning to develop an objective awareness of her/him, and lessons of relativity and equality.
In order to learn that, thius Soul has already been involved in many relationships, that motivated her exposure to other's value systems, ideas, beliefs and emotional patterns.
Yet, the individual continues to initiate relationships in order to learn about her/his identity by comparison and contrast. This way, the evolutionary lesson of objectivity can be learned.
This process teaches her/him to identify reality as it exists for others, and so be able to know how and what to give them accordingly to their reality.
This is crucial because of the need to integrate into society and operate in relationships as an equal instead of on a dominant or subservient basis (Pluto in 7th, SN in 6th).
This is a central point for this Soul in the current lifetime, because in order to attain objectivity and equality all traces of egocentricity and subjective orientation to life must be purged.
I wonder if the evolutionary intent is in a way to "complete" the 6th house transitional work but puttting already the core focus in 7th house, if it could be an example of what you and Steve said that Pluto's evolution through the houses is not linear, but the core themes sometimes reappear in interchanged positions.
This individual has the need to complete the self through relationships. This can manifest in a distorted form as the need to be needed, if the fulfilling of emotional needs is displaced projecting it onto the partner.
As the Soul is learning balance through a pendular movement between extremities, this individual may:
-Dominate a partner with her/his own self-centered needs, thus excluding the other's needs and manipulating the relationship making him/her codependent, and even losing his/her sense of personal needs and identity, or
-Becoming the alter-ego of the partner. In this case, the individual feels that by meeting the needs of the partner she/he is havingf her/his own needs meet.
The Soul has alternated these types of relationships in prior lifetimes and continues to do it until finding balance and equality.
SN in 6th House
This attitudes interweave with guilt feelings and create sado-masochistic relationship patterns.
Although I tend to see a masochistic position here, I believe that the paradigm itself can manifest also in a sadist position. Other chart (and life experience)elements are necesssary to define it.
The first case, when the individual is dominant, can have different motivations considering 7th house, but if it is related to a guilt feeeling , we find a sadist position, in which he feels guilty yet superior, and then reacts form the anger he feels blaming the partner. He will then hurt and humilliate the other in order not to be hurt, and punish the partner as a form of self punishment.
On the other hand, in 6th house the soul is learning necessary lessons of humility. And if instead of true humility the individual lives it as humilliation and if it interweaves with the guilt feeelings the masochistic position is very possible.
The individual then feels inferior, and guilty, and tries to atone for this guilt. Together with the cyclical crisis she/he maybecome subservient to the partner; and therefore living to fulfill the other's needs and even becoming an alter-ego. This way she will be trying to atone for her guilt.
This Soul feels an 'essential void', that is more than a just basic aloneness, and that intensifies its compulsive need to be in relationships, intending to fill this void.
Through 6th house experiences the Soul also develops discrimination ability, very necessary to find individual's identity and to establish adequate realtionships.
This Soul has a real need to be of service. She needs learn to be of service in a way that is truly helpful to others, yet is nor self-destructive.
Being truly helpful means giving that kiund of help that the other really needs, accordingly to her/his reality.
PP in 1st House
To develop the evolutionary intent this Soul must overcome its security patterns, daring self-discovery and learning to make her own decisions, not depending on other's opinions.
The individual needs to take her way alone in order to fulfill her/his own special destiny, minimizing her dependence on the partner to do it.
She/he must also not controlling or interfere with partner's decisions or autonomy.
Embracing the PP teaches to overcome fears and to recognize her/his inner strength; teaches also to supply personal needs.
All this will help to find the courage to develop her own identity in an independent manner; and therefore create independent and equality based relationships.
In that sense, the PP also reflect the need to learn when to give and when not. NN in 12 th house lessons on when to serve and when not are a fundamental way to attain it. Overcoming the need to be needed is also necessary to that.
PP in 1st House requires and encourages choosing partners who have the capacity to actualize their own life by their own means, and who also encourage mutual independence.
All this lessons help this Soul to be in relationships in a self secure manner, being able to ask its own questions form within(NN's looking within is a way to it), aiding discovering or recovering individual's identity and encouraging the partner to do the same.
NN in 12th HOuse
This Soul develops the PP by looking inside and dissolving emotional barriers; by dissolving guilt patterns and self centeredness that prevent finding individual identity and acknowledging other's reality; dissolving self- centered inner dialogues that condition the way it listens to the partner.
NN also helps establishing an adequate awareness of her/his place in the universe, I mean that her/his relationship with the universe and with Divinity will give her/him an adequate perspective of her place in relationships.
This can also give an adequate measure or proportion of her/his responsibility (instead of guilt).
Awareness of adequate priorities is another important attainment that this node promotes and necessary to acknowledge her needs and desire, thus her independence and self-determination.
12th house experience of intrinsec alonenenss teaches the necessary lesson that only a relationship with the Divine can fill the interior void, and helps to overcome the compulsive tendency to be in relationships to fill it.
The relationship with the Divine avoids also the risk to convert the partner in a defacto god.
Awareness of the All promotes sincere humility, differentiating it from humilliation that promotes subservient behavior or a masochistic position.
In opposition to 6th house criticism, 12th house teaches self-forgivenes and tolerance for all our faults, imperfections and mistakes. Once we learn these lessons, it will be reflected in the Soul's behavior with others.
The individual will then be able to love herself and others unconditionally, overcoming the 7th house distortion of conditional love.
This all will develop a clear awareness of the Soul's relationships with others, thus learning a fundamental lesson of discernment and when to serve and when not, so important within this paradigm.
God Bless
Mirta
Hi Mirta,
Bravo Mirta, bravo ! Your analysis is exceptional, and your capacity of being able to synthesize the interactions within the paradigm as a whole is exceptional as well. It is a great pleasure to experience your own evolution within Evolutionary Astrology. Bravo !
God Bless, Rad
Thanks so much, Rad!
I am very happy for being able to reasoning within this wonderful evolutionary and helping tool that is EA.
And above all for beginning to be up to the great privilege of your teaching, assesment and orientation.
I am very grateful.
God Bless
MIrta
Hi Practice Chart Group,
Ok, let's start on another paradigm with Pluto in the 2nd House, the S.Node in the 5th, Pluto's polarity point is the 8th House, and the N.Node is in the 11th. Let's have a go at it.
God Bless, Rad
Hi everyone.
I have been following many of the postings here and I have found it greatly awarding. Since I'm now trying to be more sincere in my effort towards applying my self to EA I thought I jump in and give it a go. I have viewed the first segment in the DVD course but have not made any attempts do do the homework. My name is Henrik and I'm from Sweden. Any feedback is greatly appreciated.
Pluto in 2nd House; SN in 5th House;
PPP in 8th House; NN in 11th House.
Pluto in 2nd has had a series of lifetimes where the Soul has desired to subjectively identify it's own resources and values to sustain themselves on the physical and emotional plane. Why? The Soul has desired to look within and consolidate the essence of what is "me" contrasted to the changing scenery around them.
In terms of archetypes what you have is the Taurus (2nd House) (Fixed and Yin)/ Scorpio (Pluto) (Fixed and Yin) synthesis. Thus, even though PPP is in the 8th House, you already have an influence of the Scorpio archetype just because of Pluto. Thus, we have an enormous focus of energy inwards. Why? The Soul now wants to direct attention to that which we can identify as our own.
Assuming that the person has identified some resources, the SN in the 5th house means that the person has tried to creatively actualize those resources or talents that the person has identified as its own; to actually project them outwards to the world. Because it is the SN this also means that the person has been "successful" at doing it; the person feels secure at doing things this way. It also means that the focus has been extremely self-oriented and that the person has not been able to recognize others who are creative or others with resources and talents that are different than our person. Also, because the SN is in a fixed house, there is a real risk (unless mitigating factors exist) that whatever resources and talents that have been identified will be rooted (2nd House) and centered (SN in 5th) in consciousness and that the person may have a hard time seeing anything outside of its own reality (i.e. personal limitations).
The PPP in the 8th house points to the next step in evolution. The archetype of Scorpio involves personal limitation. Having identified one's own resources and values, the next step is to realize the how and why as it pertains to the identification of those particular resources and values. Once the how and why is realized, the Scorpio archetypes involves the transformation of limitations. But let's not forget that whatever house Pluto is found, this is an area where the Souls has probably lived a number of lives in and thus feels some level of security at. Thus, change is only going to happen as the person starts to feel that things are not working for them anymore in regards to this area. In other words, there will be signs of internal or external confrontation in these areas.
The NN in the 11th house combined with the PPP in the 8th house ultimately leads to the objective awareness of how to transform one's limitations inherent in the Pluto 2nd house and to link those new ways of looking at one self and one's purpose as an individual with that of the larger group. However, unless the sign of the SN or Pluto is in a mutable sign or other mitigating factors (being that both the 2nd house Pluto and the 5th house SN are fixed houses) evolution may occur mostly through ego blows and other shocks. Such confrontations will be aimed at forcing the individual inwards (Pluto) to examine their personal limitations and their overly egocentric view of their purpose to creative actualize who they are. The reason change is necessary is that the person has gotten overly identified with the resources (security). It has worked for them through many lives. This is no longer the case and so the person is thrown back on themselves.
How change will occur is seen through the NN in the 11th house and so we can see that society will prevent the person from actualizing his special destiny until there is a transference from the subjective to the objective. As long as the pyramid structure is maintained, the individual will not be acknowledged for her/his creative endeavors. The self-narcissistic view of the world needs to be altered into a more detached view and the person needs to develop into becoming a member of society. The PPP in the 8th will actually help in this process because the (unconscious) desire to evolve will manifest itself through life situations whereby the person is exposed to whatever personal limitations that exists and how they have identified with those limitations.
Hi Henrik,
First, it wonderful that you have decided to participate in our little practice chart group.
Your analysis is very accurate relative to the spectrum of the various archetypes within this paradigm, and your synthesize of these archetypes is just as accurate. One word that you could have used, and I am sure it was within your consciousness anyway, relative to the 8th House polarity with the N.Node in the 11th facilitating it, is objectification. In other words, one of the core reasons that such a Soul would design necessary confrontations to itself by others is to help the Soul objectify it's subjective reality. In so doing this then given the Soul an opportunity to 'liberate' from those preexisting orientations to the reality of itself, and others.
Good job Henrik.
God Bless, Rad
Hi Rad.
Thank you for those encouraging and constructive comments. I realize that I haven't adressed the different levels of evolution and the variety of ways that these archetypal configurations would have played out. I'm trying to keep it simple for now and concentrate one the core issues.
Once again, thanks, and I feel thrilled to be able to participate :)
All the best...
Henrik
Hi Rad,
Here is my practice. As always, your feedback is essential to furthering my evolution.
Thanks so much.
Pluto in 2nd House, SN in 5th House; PP in 8th House, SN in 11th House
General Understanding: this is a fixed paradigm; the 4 positions are in fixed houses.
I tend to see it analogous to a fixed grand cross. Thus, powerful inner strength and self-determination, but also stubbornness and rigidity, at least great resistance to change.
This resistance to changes has different manifestations in each evolutionary condition:
Consensus stage: rigidity, resisting to change emotional patterns and situations in the material plane, social structures and society conditioning patterns.
Individuated stage is Uranian, and Uranus doesn't easily express itself in fixed signs and houses personally orientated as Taurus and Leo.
However, it may be firmness and determination in liberating from consensus society's conditioning relative to individual's inner valuation and validation, and in affirming the individual or individuated point of view.
In the Spiritual stage the characteristic energy returning to the center and the strong will force will be of great help in threading the spiritual path.
There will be great concentration in meditation and also leading to internal and external action.
The will and determination in changing past patterns of behavior, destroying the old and building new ones may be constantly furthering detachment and evolution.
Generally speaking, I see it as a paradigm of evolution form subjectivity to objectivity, from focus no I to involvement and acknowledgment of the Other (other people, society, other powers, other's power, transpersonal and Universal power; other's values, other's reality, other's needs).
Pluto in 2nd House: The previous desire and evolutionary need was to develop self reliance and self sustainment.
In prior lives this soul has been learning to identify its values and individual needs in order to develop these qualities of self-reliance and self sustainment. It has been grounding its sense of identity.
The individual came to this lifetime with this self-reliance (although not always aware of it), and a great need to survive and self sustaining in the physical plane and also in the emotional plane.
She/he had the need to withdraw in former lives and will be attracted by (to?) withdrawal experiences in this life.
This withdrawal had the aim to interiorize its awareness focus in order to discover her/his needs and values within. But she/he may do (or did) it in a very subjective self-concentration (SN in 5th H.)
This self-rooted way of living and finding her own values leads to the feeling her/his own essence as different from the flow of environmental circumstances.
This, in turn, would have created the "frog in the well" karma, i.e. the individual came to this life with a limited vision of him and life that constitutes a security pattern. She/he trusts in it, because it works.
May be this limited vision led to a environmental recognition (SN in 5th H.), but I can create inertia or laziness and, specially with this SN, a great resistance to "jumping out of the well" and fear to lose the recognition that she/he desperately needs.
This soul, in this moment of its evolution may have a great resistance to change past patterns of behavior because of the insecurities that it produces.
This person is learning to establish an adequate inner relationship with itself and an inner orientation to life. In order to do this, she/he is choosing and affirming her/his values and what is of meaning.
Therefore, she/he is trying to find the essential need to survival.
The survival instinct creates the need to become self-reliant and self-sustaining.
Then, she is establishing what she/he needs to:
a) Physical survival:
In Consensus stage material values are the means for individual independence.
In Individuated stage, the soul learned to identify with personal resources that create the means for individual independence.
In Spiritual condition the Soul is aware that the universe, the Source, provides what is necessary for self-sustaining when receptive to It.
Limitation is always implicit in 2nd House experience. But in Consensus, where there is identification with material values, the limitation is in the values themselves.
B) Procreation instinct:
As part of the survival instinct this individual is learning lessons relative to the procreation instinct, lessons related to her/his sexual values.
She/he has a strong sexual nature and physical inclination.
The evolutionary intent requires that she/he learns to relate and unite with a partner in an emotional way. Indeed, her emotional power leads naturally to strong physical and sexual needs. And she needs to liberate energy through the activities and functions correlated to the 8th House PP in order to achieve emotional stability.
Even when involved with another person, this individual may have a masturbatory activity as a way to relate with himself. Masturbation may become a frequent and intense activity if the procreation and sexual instinct correlates with self-reliance.
There is a risk that this person uses her/his sexual or emotional power in order to possess or manipulate other people. This can be made by sexually attracting in order to obtain something or even by denying sexual activity.
The Soul is also learning lessons of inner relationship with itself. This relationship correlates with how the individual is inwardly vibrating and listening to her/himself, her inner dialogue; dialogue and vibration that are the causative factors of the relationships she/he attracts.
In turn, this inner vibration is based on our values. Thus, if she/he is overidentified with material, external values, the distortion of relating to her/him and others as objects, as possessions may create use and manipulation in relationships. Using sexuality as a way to possess or manipulate is a distortion derived from that orientation. Also masturbation, because of the difficulty of relating to another persona on a deep, emotional, ego-transcending way.
Manipulation, I believe, is more possible in Consensus stage, but not only.
In Consensus the individual is less aware, or even unaware, of her/his unconscious projections, and of course of her/his own individuality.
Thus, the distortion of treating himself and her/his partner as an object is more probable and so is the tendency to manipulate from his subjective or selfish point of view and needs.
In Individuated stage, individuation is being achieved by recovering projections. The Soul is learning to objectivize (or objectify) her consideration of the other (I mean, not subjective, not considering him as an object, but viewing him objectively in her individuality and with his reality).
And therefore the individual can establish sexual relationships based not only in his strong physical and procreative impulse, but in a deep emotional commitment (8th House PP) with a partner; and relating as a way of transcending the personal ego, at least in this one-to-one relationship.
Manipulation may still appear, but less and less as evolution proceed.
In Spiritual condition sexual energy is not experienced as physical (although there may be physical procreation), but as a sacred energy originated in God and a way to returning to Him.
Instead of a relieving physical manifestation, sexual energy ascends through the chakras, opening the Love center in the hearth and the higher centers to receiving the Light.
Sexual relationship is experienced as a consciousness expansion for the partners, a way to unite themselves in the union with the Divine.
Tantric yoga, Taoist or other spiritual sexuality techniques are necessary and helpful.
There is not possibility for manipulation. (Or there is in 2nd. Spiritual substage?)
SN in 5th House: This soul has been learning to creatively actualize itself in a self-reliant manner. If this crucial lesson is not already learned, stress might still be experienced.
The individual needs to be self-reliant and self sustaining instead of expecting another person to actualize her/his capacities.
Also, materialist values (2nd. house) that promote self interest and exclusion will create a narcissistic creative actualization process.
If laziness or inertia in actualizing her /his life by her/his own means manifest, other distortions in relationships can occur, because this soul needs (and has needed) to take control of its special destiny and actualize it out of the strength of the will.
The individual needs to establish and project her/his creative objective in the environment, but aware of the desire and evolutionary need of attaining this goal form within. So, he needs creatively actualize himself in a self reliant manner from within.
This means not projecting this need onto other persons, not expecting other people doing it for him, and also not expecting recognition or flattering for it or to it.
This individual was born with a strong need of being recognized and treated as special. If
self-reliance is not attained, if insecurities remain, she/he may be like a "bottomless pit" of compulsive needs of attention and flattering. Manipulating others to satisfy these needs may be a frequent behavior.
Selfishness and egocentricity may also manifest. The self- centered and/or narcissistic creative actualization related to 2nd house self-sufficiency need may lead this person to believing he/she is the source of his own creativity. The subjective individualized (not individuated) power is felt in its maximum expression.
This is of course a limitation (although her/his belief is the contrary) from an universal point of view, and can also produce a feeling of powerlessness if he doesn't attain her/his goals, or even to attain them.
A most possible problem with this individual can be related to his way of giving. SN in 5th house can manifest a self-centered form of giving, i.e. the individual only gives to another in order to have her/his own self-centered needs met. Or at least, and almost surely, he will give to another according to his/her own reality, not what the other needs.
This in turn will promote a negative feedback from others, and the consequent emotional confrontations needed to weaken the pyramidal structure of reality, and perhaps she/he will then experience the powerlessness (8th house PP) that leads her/him to recognize that he needs to consider the other (NN in 11th house) and therefore transform powerlessness in a shared power (PP in 8th house).
If the 2nd house need of identifying his own capacities, self worth and self reliance has been met, it will be possible to establish values of a nonconditioned nature and thus helping others in a selfless way, identifying also the other's reality and needs.
PP in 8th House: The frog needs to pull out of the well. For evolution to proceed, this Soul needs to confront and purge all internal limitations that are preventing growth.
The PP promotes the awareness of why the individual is relating to himself in that way and why she/he has these values. The internal and external confrontations are intended to produce this awareness, that her/his pre-existing orientation to life and limitations are causing the current behavior and problems.
This Soul needs learning to merge itself and its resources with others in such a way that it adds to what it and others are. In order to it the individual has to learn self-reliance. He will then learn to unite without depending on the person or power to whom she/he has united.
This way she/he will be transmuting and overcoming the limitations she/he brought to this lifetime.
NN in 11th House: The individual will be able to overcome and transform her/his limitations by learning objectivity.
She/he needs to develop and objective awareness of her/himself in general and specially to detach from the pyramid reality structure she/he created. This way she/he will be able to acknowledge the creativity and capcities of others without feeling threatened in her/his own self-reliance.
She/he needs to detach from her/his emotions, subjectivity, narcissism and need of recognition and acceptation.
Other's reality will then be recognized and accepted, and selfless giving will be possible, while manipulations become unnecessary.
She/he will then become aware of is really inherent and unique within her/himself and be able to express and actualize the Soul's inherent and unique individuality; thus being able to relate to her/himself and others in a self-reliant but selfless manner, affirming his own values but at the same time accepting and respecting other's values, needs and reality.
Sexual relationships, parental roles will be transmuted in an evolved manner.
The objective awareness that this NN promotes will help this person to understand how she/he (and others) can positively contribute to a group and how individual's creative and special talents can best be used to serve humanitarian needs.
She/he will then merge with other and other's power and link her/his special destiny and creative purpose to a socially relevant need. Once this link is established, leadership abilities and strength of will would manifest, but with awareness of not being the source of power. Also, her/his merging with a transpersonal power would manifest through her/him as a vehicle or instrument of the real Source.
God Bless
Mirta
Hi Mirta.
I just wanted to say that I resonated personally to where you wrote:
"In Individuated stage, individuation is being achieved by recovering projections. The Soul is learning to objectivize (or objectify) her consideration of the other (I mean, not subjective, not considering him as an object, but viewing him objectively in her individuality and with his reality)."
Recovering projections is beautifully put and fits perfectly to my own 2nd house Pluto. My Pluto is conj my Sn in Virgo, with the ruler Mercury in the 3rd House Libra and I can tell you that your phrase of recovering projections is always on my mind :)
All the best...
Henrik
Hi Mirta,
Once again your analysis has captured the essence of this EA paradigm, and how it interacts within itself. Your continuing development and evolution within this work is wonderful to experience Mirta. Bravo !
God Bless, Rad
Hi Rad,
Thanks you very much.
These practices are a powerful stimulus and great opportunityto deepen my understandig.
God Bless
Mirta
Hi Henrik
I am glad with your resonance. Thanks. You have put this theoretical concept in a living EA context.
Recovering projections is also a beautiful concept for me (NN in VII in Taurus, Venus and Sun in Libra, SN in Scorpio, Moon-Uranus in VIII), and very important in junguian psychology, one of the mechanisms that promote individuation.
Certainly you already did the accurate associations regarding the 2nd house Pluto. I noticed also Virgo's part.
May be you know that what Jung called individuation is a process leading to discover the uniqueness of our soul in its current manifestation, and a way to become more complete human beings. Jung said that we cannot be perfect, but we can aspire to be complete.
Important for Virgo, isn't it?
We generally think that we project "negative" aspects and it may not be easy to understand that we do the same with our qualities. But indeed we project all that we don't accept, repressing it.
And then, when the psique cannot live something within, it looks for it or "finds" it outside in order to experience it.
I believe that guilt and Virgo's feeling of imperfection, of not being ready, may lead to projecting positive traits and abilities. It may take time and work to recognize these aspects, bring them back and reintroject them in our psique.
But it's worth because it not only completes our inner valuation and validation, but it is also crucial to define the other's identity in relationships.
Sorry for my English expression. I am argentine and completely out of practice in speaking and writing in this language.
God Bless
Mirta
Hi Mirta.
Your english is just fine, and then some...
Yes, the agnowledgement to our self of the direct correllation/connection between the inner processes and the outer realities is so important.
Looking forward to the next configuration from Rad. Being able to read your analysis hass also been very helpful.
All the best to you.
Henrik
Hi Practice Chart Group,
Both Henrik and Mirta have done their analysis of the current EA paradigm that we are working with. I need to know if any of the rest of you are planning on working with this paradigm. If not, then we will start a new one.
God Bless, Rad
Hi Rad ...Apologies ...missed the boat on the last thread.. :( would like to jump on board with the next one!
Maggie
Hi Practice Chart Group,
Ok, seems like it is time to begin a new EA paradigm. This one will have Pluto in the 8th, it's S.Node in the 11th, Pluto's polarity point is the 2nd, and the N.Node is in the 5th.
Let's have a go at it ............
God Bless, Rad
Hi Rad.
In order to not get ahead of myself I'm posting my understanding of Pluto in the 8th house first. Then, after whatever adjustments that has to be made, I thought I'd go ahead and post how the Sn in the 11th has been used to actualize the Pluto (desire) function in the 8th. I hope this is ok...
Pluto, in whatever house or sign, correlates with the desire (often unconscious) of the soul to evolve. However, Pluto also correlates to unconscious security. Thus, to evolve means to move beyond what constitutes the familiar and therein lies the paradox. This may be why Pluto in any sign and house is often associated with degrees of resistance and compulsive behavior. Depending on the archetypes of the sign and house you find Pluto and the evolutionary/karmic past may give us a clue as to whether the change will be progressive and/or cataclysmic. The desires emanating from the soul will be transmitted to and acted out via our Mars function on an instinctual basis. (Is this an ok way of describing it in general?)
Pluto in 8th House
The why as to the Pluto 8th house individual is because the soul desires to evolve and since the 8th house/Scorpio archetype deals with introspection/penetration and the psychology of why, sooner or later one is bound to discover the limits of what we are vs. what we are not. This means that unavoidably (and necessary so from the point of view of the desire of the soul) the limits of what we are (self, compared to others) becomes a focus area in these peoples' lives. To discover a limit/powerlessness is to realize that which we are not (internal/external confrontation) and this forms the basis for that which we need. So we initiate relationships to people and/or symbols that we feel have something that we need that we currently lack. Whereas Pluto in Libra desired to be in a wide variety of relationships, Pluto in Scorpio is more selective about whom they form relationships with. The selection is based on forming relationships to anything that symbolizes something the Pluto in Scorpio person lacks.
Pluto in any house or sign correlates with compulsion. In the 8th house this quality is even more emphasized (double archetype) and it is directed at the desire of power or maybe more to the point, not feeling powerlessness (as in emotionally vulnerable, Scorpio sq Cancer). Can it not be said that we sometimes do things repeatedly that we know (or at least afterwards realize) to be against all logic or rationale? Yet, against our rational judgment, we do it again. Why? It's because such instinctual impulses are associated with unconscious desire (Mars instinctually acting out the desires of Pluto/Soul) (natural inconjunct between 8th/Scorpio and 1st/Aries). However, compulsion can also occur because of unconscious security. In either case compulsive behavior is necessary because it sooner or later leads us to really look deep into ourselves and to identify why we act in such a way.
The following paragraph is actually a question dressed up as a statement: The interesting thing about Pluto in the 8th is that these people KNOW what they need (is this so, at least at some level?). What is at stake is the HOW they go about acquiring what they need. The how implies choice making and this is why karma is heavily emphasized in this configuration. If I initiate an intimate relationship with you because you possess something I desire and then (once I have taken in what I need) leave you, most likely you will feel used. It is bad enough that the relationship is terminated, but the worst part will be that the other person will probably know that they have been used. How will they know? Unless there was a mutual give/take transmutation, one person will remain the same and the other will have gained something. This will be felt (even if it's at an unconscious level) by both parties. Thus karma is set in motion. Also, when most of us initiate a relationship we invest ourselves emotionally and this only adds to the feeling hurt, especially if we feel that the other person had ulterior motives.
The 8th house Pluto may compulsively be drawn or draw unto them situations or people that are seen as holding some source of power or there may be some sort of attraction on the surface that underneath triggers a repulsion (push/pull). The problem with this compulsion is that it invites manipulation. Unless the person is evolved and honest to themselves and others about their intentions, the means to their end may be more important than how it is achieved. . If we only take that which we think we need but do not internalize it (manipulation), then we will have to repeat the process (sooner or later) until it's an integral part of our selves.
If there is a true merging of that which we have initiated a relationship with, then we actually evolve via the 2nd house and internalize this as a resource. Pluto in the 8th represents internal and external confrontations on a cyclical basis because there is a dual desire that is acted upon. This behavior comes from the desire to feel secure (separating) and the desire to grow (return).
Thought: If the symbol that is focused on for growth is not primarily a person in a relationship, then a more stable relationship may be possible. The underlying process of severing the connection to that which represented what we needed (once we have internalized it) may in such a case then not necessarily mean the end of the relationship. In other words, if two people initiate a relationship based on mutual freedom to expand and grow then perhaps a termination of the relationship may be avoided. Obviously this will be rare until some level of individuality has occurred within each person. An interesting thing to ponder is that if you focus on a symbol and not a quality in a person, doesn't this already tell us that the person is in a higher state of evolution because they have been able to realize that a symbol can hold as much power (or more) as another person? This is not the same as people giving power to symbols that are directly linked with people in power. So for example, giving power to the cross as an extension of manmade religion and authoritative regimes is not what I mean. Instead I mean symbols that somehow speak to our soul in such a way that we somehow know that there is a greater truth to be revealed by studying such symbol. In other words, there has been a development within the person towards the abstract which in time will lead us to God/dess, which of course is even more abstract (unless you have already experienced/directly known God/dess).
Any and all feedback is greatly appreciated.
All the best,
Henrik
Hi everyone.
Oops, I just noticed an error in my posting (probably not the only one ;D):
"...(as in emotionally vulnerable, Scorpio sq Cancer)."
sq Cancer is obviously not correct.
All the best,
Henrik
Hi Henrik,
Very nice to read your own way of putting together the archetypes within the 8th House Pluto as you have. The issue/ dynamic of 'symbols' can be almost anything within the 8th House Pluto that the Soul can become compulsively orientated too, and the 'power' projected into such symbols reflects the deeper emotional/ psychological issues within the Soul: it's specific pathology. For many whatever these symbols are is 'hidden' from most for the act of keeping it hidden, or private, creates even more power within those symbols for such Souls. These symbols thus correlate to the perceived 'needs' of the Soul and it is those 'needs' that can then become the basis of manipulating people or situations in order to have those needs met. It is this manipulation of situations or people that infers a dishonesty which then becomes the basis of the 'karma' created. It is the basis of 'using' others in order for those needs to be met as well.
Keep going Henrik you are doing great ..............
God Bless, Rad
Hi Rad
Sorry for the delay. I am abroad, working a bit and pretty disorganized.
I intend to post the analysis next week.
Here in Spain, in specialized bookstores, it is still possible to find some copies of Pluto and Uranus in Spanish, both out of print.
God Bless
Mirta
Hi Mirta,
Thanks for letting me know. Amazing about those books still be available in Spanish, yet out of print. I know that JWG told me years ago that Llewellyn has tremendous problems with the person who bought the rights to print in Spanish. He refused to forwards any royalties from the sales to Llewellyn which of course was part of the contract. They even took him to court, got an award, yet that person still failed to pay up. Such a nice world we are in, eh ?
God Bless, Rad
Hi Rad.
Thank you for your feedback.
Following what you wrote my question is:
Is karma two-fold: Karma (good or bad) returning from other people that we have interacted with before and karma returning from the sphere of recorded actions on Gaia (possibly acted out by humans, but not neccessarily from people that we have direct karma with. The second part could also possibly be played out in such a way that residual traces of that karma is connected to us such that we may attract karma from other people through some sort of magnetism)?
The relevance of this question has to do with karma set in motion through manipulation. Is the karma that follows a bi-product of feeling used or is karma set in motion regardless of if the other person realizes the manipulation?
I hope I'm not digressing to much from the purpose of the thread ::)
All the best,
Henrik
Hi Henrik,
"Following what you wrote my question is: Is karma two-fold: Karma (good or bad) returning from other people that we have interacted with before and karma returning from the sphere of recorded actions on Gaia (possibly acted out by humans, but not neccessarily from people that we have direct karma with."
**********************
Yes, both are possible.
************************
" The second part could also possibly be played out in such a way that residual traces of that karma is connected to us such that we may attract karma from other people through some sort of magnetism)?"
****************************
Yes, this is possible too. It's also possible for Souls who are highly evolved to attract others with whom they have no specific or individual karma with in order to absorb their karma so as to help them evolve more quickly: to bring specific karmic patterns and dynamics to a point of culmination.
********************************
"The relevance of this question has to do with karma set in motion through manipulation. Is the karma that follows a bi-product of feeling used or is karma set in motion regardless of if the other person realizes the manipulation?"
**********************************
Karma, the natural law of, as you know is nothing more than every action ( desire ) having a proportionate reaction: karma. Thus, whether the one who is being manipulated realizes that they are or not is irrelevant to the fact that the one who is doing the manipulating will of course create that karma for themselves.
*****************************************
God Bless, Rad
Hi Rad.
Apologies... I'm finding very little time to get to grips with the latest 8th house thread. ::). I'll catch you on the next one.
Kindest
Maggie
Thank you Rad for answering my questions. As I have seen elsewhere in this forum your invaluable guidance and patience with our inquisative minds is truly a gift to the Universe.
Your answer to my posting on Pluto in the 8th probably answered my question in many aspects. However, I thought I'd post the particular paragraph/question again to see if there was something else you wanted to comment on:
The following paragraph is actually a question dressed up as a statement: The interesting thing about Pluto in the 8th is that these people KNOW what they need (is this so, at least at some level?). What is at stake is the HOW they go about acquiring what they need. The how implies choice making and this is why karma is heavily emphasized in this configuration. If I initiate an intimate relationship with you because you possess something I desire and then (once I have taken in what I need) leave you, most likely you will feel used. It is bad enough that the relationship is terminated, but the worst part will be that the other person will probably know that they have been used. How will they know? Unless there was a mutual give/take transmutation, one person will remain the same and the other will have gained something. This will be felt (even if it's at an unconscious level) by both parties. Thus karma is set in motion. Also, when most of us initiate a relationship we invest ourselves emotionally and this only adds to the feeling hurt, especially if we feel that the other person had ulterior motives.
Any comments would be greatly appreciated.
All the best,
Henrik
Hi Henrik,
Your answer to my posting on Pluto in the 8th probably answered my question in many aspects. However, I thought I'd post the particular paragraph/question again to see if there was something else you wanted to comment on:
The following paragraph is actually a question dressed up as a statement: The interesting thing about Pluto in the 8th is that these people KNOW what they need (is this so, at least at some level?).
********************
Yes, but not necessarily WHY they need whatever it is they need.
**********************
What is at stake is the HOW they go about acquiring what they need. The how implies choice making and this is why karma is heavily emphasized in this configuration. If I initiate an intimate relationship with you because you possess something I desire and then (once I have taken in what I need) leave you, most likely you will feel used. It is bad enough that the relationship is terminated, but the worst part will be that the other person will probably know that they have been used. How will they know?
*************************
Because typically there are all kinds of declarative statements of intentions and reasons for wanting to be with the one who symbolizes what the other feels they needs. So when the one who has issued such statements of intentions, etc, then ups and leaves the one who have been left is now holding an empty bag full of those stated intentions and declarative statements.
********************************
Unless there was a mutual give/take transmutation, one person will remain the same and the other will have gained something. This will be felt (even if it's at an unconscious level) by both parties. Thus karma is set in motion. Also, when most of us initiate a relationship we invest ourselves emotionally and this only adds to the feeling hurt, especially if we feel that the other person had ulterior motives.
********************************
Of course yet the one who has been effectively used by the other also has their own dynamics that are responsible for allowing themselves to be used and mislead yet one more time. And until those inner dynamics are acknowledged within an intention to change them then that person is destined to keep recreating those relationship dynamics until they do.
***********************************
God Bless, Rad
Thank you Rad for your comments.
Your last statement helped me realize what a slippery slope one's actions can be. Until one realizes that each action has a re-action which leads to yet another re-action one will never be truly free. I guess it doesn't matter if one feels that what has been done upon one-self is unjust (of course we put our-selves in this situation in the first place). In fact, following upon your last statement (and I do feel this is so inside) it takes even more courage to forgive (or rather to take a higher stand in an encompassing point of view) than to live your life without inflicting pain to someone.
All the best,
Henrik
Hi Henrik,
"In fact, following upon your last statement (and I do feel this is so inside) it takes even more courage to forgive (or rather to take a higher stand in an encompassing point of view) than to live your life without inflicting pain to someone."
***************************************
Yes, this is exactly right Henrik. JWG wrote about this very point in his Pluto 2 book on relationships. As he put it how can one know who did what to who in the first place ? Unless one has some type of consciousness that can 'see' such things. Since most don't it does then come to this exact place of making a conscious choice to forgive, and then to move on. This doesn't mean that it is not essential to identify one's own inner dynamics that are responsible for creating whatever: it is.
God Bless, Rad
Hi Rad,
Indignation is the minimum that produces what youhave said about the Spanish publisher.
In addition, Luis Cárcamo isn´t a good publishing house. I have Alexander Ruperti's Astrological Houses in a bad translation, full of mistakes.
And now I saw that Uranus's subtitle in Spanish is "Freedom by knowledge" (??!!).
This is also lack of ethics isnt'it?.It should be forbidden for them to sell these books.
I hope EA and JWG's work will have a better way of spreading in the Spanish speaking countries.
This is the analysis I could do:
Pluto in 8th House, SN in 11th; PP in 2nd house, NN in 5th house.
General Understanding: My general vision of this paradigm is a passage from transpersonal to personal, in a kind of second turn or a way to approaching individual and concrete issues in a higher level of an evolutionary spiral. (I mean that although evolution is not linear, if Pluto and SN are between Libra and Pisces is because in some way the Soul has already been in the individual part of the archetypal spectrum, from Aries to Leo).
It is also a passage from knowing to acting, from a knowledge, theoretical approach to a concrete, actualizing plane.
This Soul has been accelerating its evolution in prior lifetimes, whatever its evolutionary condition may be (Pluto in 8th: metamorphosis; SN in 11tth: acceleration of evolution).
Now the evolutionary purpose is learning to identify the new values and resources produced by metamorphosis in order to attain more personal independence; doing it by creatively actualizing the objective knowledge and power attained through deconditioning and detachment.
Pluto in 8th House:
This Soul has been facing the limits of the individual's identity, of who she/he is (experience of power), and who she/he is not and cannot be (powerlessness).
The evolutionary impulse of overcoming its limits is approached fundamentally in three aspects: Power, Knowledge and Relationships.
Power: In former lives this soul had to experience its limitations and to transform them in order to evolve.
The individual learned to absorb power from the power symbols to which he related producing a metamorphosis. These symbols could have been relationships, social status and a knowledge system or corpus.
The separation desire could have created a conflict and the need to stabilize the attained point to protect the limits of the last interior metamorphosis. Resistances to destroying patterns could emerge leading even to a stagnation; or not, it could also have been a saturnine structuring time (Saturn coregent of 11th House) creating new limits that the Soul would be able to overcome later.
Knowledge: Psychological knowledge specially. This Soul is and has been living emotional, intellectual and spiritual confrontations that produced an interior psychoanalysis, leading to a deep knowledge, personal and transpersonal.
Always asking why, this soul seeks the meaning of all situations and experiences, why the individual (and other people) works as it does.
In a positive way the individual uses her/his natural psychological knowledge (according to her/his evolutionary condition) to help others to understand their motivations and desires, and to purge or eliminate negative or outworn patterns.
The objectivity developed by her/his SN made it possible.
Doing it, she/he helps other people to liberate from their interior limitations and to decondition from cultural and familial patterns from present and former lives.
I believe that here we can find a natural relationship between 8th and 11th houses archetypes, also manifested in Uranus's exaltation in Scorpio (although JWG didn't attend much to exaltations. . . )
In a positive manifestation the Soul will give power to others instead of using it to control or manipulate them.
SN 11th house detachment can aid in overcoming the need to manipulate. But it could also provide clarity to see how to better do it.
The individual would also be able to transform his/her limitations in higher levels of self-knowledge.
This soul has been trying to have direct experience of the symbols or sources of power it merged with.
The individual needs to see, sense, live directly the object of her/his desire or power. It is through this direct experience that she/he merged with the transformation symbols.
For him it is not a matter of belief, but of experience, objective experience (SN in 11th). Positively, this experience would lead to a spontaneous metamorphosis in him/herself.
Negatively, the individual would try to manipulate the symbols for egocentric goals: objectification instead of objectivity.
Relationships: The evolutionary purpose of this Soul is learning to discern and decide with whom becoming involved and who could it trust (difficult for Pluto in 8th) and commit.
The individual is learning to choose people who could be in harmony with his desire, needs and karma, and specially with her/his Soul.
He/she is learning to do adequate choices. But, adequate in what sense?
The individual needs a person that symbolizes something she/he needs consciously; but this can create an emotional dependency.
Or she/he looks for somebody that needs her/him (or sees him) as a transformation symbol, and that may also create dependency.
SN in 11th House's experiences can develop detachment and teach the individual to recognize likeness in an objective manner, and this way doing adequate choices without emotional dependency or manipulation.
Conflicts may also arise between 8th house's subjective identification and detached objectivity that SN promotes, until through overcoming it evolution could proceed.
Pluto will then choose partners who desire to evolve and change, accepting to put in risk what represents its security and SN could help to liberate from old stagnant relationship patterns.
SN in 11th House: This Soul has been overcoming its limits and doing its metamorphosis by liberation from crystallized forms of self definition; liberating from social and personal past patterns, and risking to liberate from the known.
The individual has been learning to avoid misidentifications, to not merge with external agents without a real likeness with her/him or that could limit or condition him to society consensus.
This Soul has been learning to see itself out of the limits of space and time.
The individual has been learning to observe her/himself in an objective manner in order to understand why she/he is the way she is, its limitations, power and powerlessness, and to eliminate the conditioning or stagnant elements or patterns that prevented metamorphosis and evolution.
Her/his tendency to accept the new helped to find new experiences of self-discovering and new answers to Soul's "why? ".
The evolutionary need of learning objectivity could have produced great upset (emotional, intellectual, spiritual or even physical) if the fixed archetypes manifested in some kind of rigidity. These upsets are intended to make the individual aware of her/his attachment to some ideas or beliefs.
SN in 11th House could help this Soul to leave its past conditionings, to develop new ways of relating with others and to experience what is unique in it.
The feeling of being different could allow the individual to merge with power symbols without undifferentiated fusion and to relate with other people understanding and respecting individuality.
PP in 2nd House: The evolutionary purpose for this lifetime is learning to identify the new values and resources produced by metamorphosis in order to attain more personal independence.
The individual is learning to reduce compulsive dependencies of external objects, personal and social, and looking within, to her/himself as a transformation symbol.
Through detachment from the environment and society she/he would identify her/his essential identity, eliminating emotional and karmic identifications with other people that she/he has been considering as aspects of himself.
Manipulation karma will then be transmuted because her/his development will not be dependent of other people or external situations.
Adequate choices will then be possible.
Self motivation and self reliance will be the basis of her/his action and behavior, and also she/he will encourage partners and relationships to develop in an independent way.
NN in 5th House: This nodal position helps the Soul to develop its evolutionary purpose by taking control of its destiny, thus not depending on external determinations or societal conditioning patterns.
It is of great importance that the individual learns to make his ideas becoming concrete realities, regarding her/himself and her/his values; in a self-reliant but not narcissistic way.
The purpose is creatively actualizing the new identity developed by objectively facing limitations, powerlessness and compulsions; deconditioning from societal pressures and objectively transforming her/his relationships.
She/he needs to actualize herself based on her own self-reliant efforts in her/his unique way, transmuting the need for external validation and creating re-empowerment within the Soul without needing to merge with other's power or resources nor manipulate.
Thanks for your understanding and patience.
God Bless
Mirta
Hi Mirta,
Very, very good analysis of this paradigm. Within this paradigm there also exists the archetypal possibilities of great trauma. What types of trauma do you think this could be ? As a result of possible traumas prior to the current life what impact would those traumas have on the current life ? What would be the way to understand or resolve those traumas relative to the signature of this paradigm ? Within this paradigm there exists the dynamic of compulsions and obsessions that could, as a result, create evolutionary stagnation. What types of compulsions and obsessions would occur within this paradigm, and what would the evolutionary intentions be in order to evolve beyond them ? How do these things then correlate to the type of inner relationship that the Soul has to itself, and what type of inner relationship would occur if the Soul makes the choices to evolve in this life ?
God Bless, Rad
Hi Rad,
Thanks for your feedback. I appreciate your questions, they are the guide I need to deepen my understanding by focusing in the specificities and particularities, and also paradigmatic of what I have to ask when facing a paradigm.
I have a little problem, I will be in Spain until March 23. I am going to think about these questions, but I am afraid I will not be able to complete it until coming back home.
If Henrik or other students are ready to continue with the next paradigm, I will then post these answers together with it.
Thanks again
God Bless
Mirta
Hi Rad and Mirta and others in this thread.
I've had a hard time with this one as I have tried to include the different evolutionary stages and how our current configuration would manifest. I have not read what anyone might have posted in the last week as well as any comments from Rad so that I could try to come up with a simple analysis my self first.
Sn in the 11th
The archetype of Aquarius is about objectifying and deconditioning from the clouds of subjective thoughts and the clouds of all that we have identified with that is not intrinsically ours. The intention is to liberate our self from the conditioning of our identity that we have been exposed to from the outside and that we have taken in through interacting with other people and society. In a sense, we are cleansing ourselves from everything that is not inherent to ourselves. Why? We are preparing to focus on our relationship with source of creation. Obviously, except for a very few, this is not consciously felt. Before this can happen we need to discover (Sn) and then creatively project (Nn) something unique about our self out into the world. This archetype also correlates to the phenomenon of trauma (emotional fracturing as a response to an emotional shock). Traumatic events will occur when there has been resistance to the Uranian evolutionary impulse. The intention then is to become aware of some blockage that is preventing us from liberating oneself from the conditioning of the social/society sphere. Just as depression is a natural expression of the Saturnian archetype to adjust our circumstantial inner/outer reality, so trauma is a natural occurrence to an unnatural identification of parts that is not inherent to our true individuality.
Depending on the evolutionary stage, the range of possible ways that the Sn in the 11th has been used to fulfill the evolutionary desires of the soul goes from a Saturnian to a Uranian expression,or a blend thereof. Regardless of the evolutionary stage, the person will seek out groups of likeminded souls.
Pluto in 8th house/Sn in the 11th house
The Pluto in the 8th will focus on what constitutes power in these groups and the dynamic that exists. How come this person is the leader or the person with power within the group? What is the dynamic at work here (within the group)? What are the roles and supporting power roles within the group? How do I motivate the people around me to subscribe power to me? What is it that this person has that I lack? How can I incorporate this into my psychological make-up? Is there something that I have identified with that is preventing me from radiating power to other people? Another way the Pluto 8th person with the Sn in the 11th might have experienced the past is betrayal (with)in groups from people he/she considered to be allies/friends (possibly traumatic). The intention is to analyze why? What were the motives of the Pluto person for considering these people to be allies/friends?
In the consensus state these groups will reflect the norms and values of society at large and within these groups the Pluto 8th person will try to form relationships to those people that symbolize power/leadership. If the person is in the 3rd sub stage they may actually lead such groups and may try to steer the group with a vision of transformation, yet within the confines of society at large. They will have identified the power base(s) of whatever group they wish to lead. For example, if they want to be a leading politician (say a President), they will have identified the political party (and the key people within that party) as the power base. In order for the person to be a president they would have to make sure that the key people leading the party would believe that they stand to gain (subscribe power) by supporting this person. As Saturn is the Co-ruler of the 11th house, the person will have identified both the structures and the group dynamics of the party.
In the individuated stage (which is already inherently Uranian) these groups will be oriented to something that differentiates it from the main stream. If they are in the crossing over between the consensus and the individuated they may choose to seek out secret societies with norms and values that are different from the main stream so that they can appear normal at the surface but investigate groups that are beyond the consensus. Pluto in the 8th with Sn in the 11th will be driven by the search to find its' true identity and power within and will form relationships to groups that seem to correspond to the next step in their own evolution. If the group/members do have something to offer the person will remain. In the 2nd sub stage, the person will wholeheartedly join groups that oppose the thoughts, norms, and values of the main stream. In the last sub stage the person will have objectified and identified its' true individuality. At this stage the person will naturally attract others in the individuated state unto her/him as they see this person as representing something unique. The challenge at this stage is still to creatively project (Nn) some identified resource within (PPP) and to link this to a socially relevant need.
In the spiritualized stage the focus will be directed at individuals within groups that may have developed a direct relationship to the source. The person in this stage will be searching (albeit unconsciously at first) for ways to align themselves to groups that expresses the timeless and service to mankind. Of course, even here, (2nd sub stage) delusions of grandeur might be exhibited by those who have experienced the power of aligning themselves to the source. The delusion may come as these people start believing that the power that has been expressed is really coming from within them and not as a direct conduit of the source. Regardless of the evolutionary stage, the key to further development is to take action and to move to the Nn; to creatively link their unique ideas to a socially relevant purpose.
With Pluto being in the 8th/Scorpio, the mode of operation has been to wield power within groups (Sn in the 11th) or to align oneself with people and/or groups that seem to signal the transformative symbol of social power. Manipulation or being manipulated via group dynamics and power (often with the aid of sex) has been a central theme. Because of the focus on psychological motivations and group dynamics, this person may very well have developed the ability to form power bases through groups and to be the leader of such groups. Other people will be drawn to this person as someone who might have something they need. Of course, in the past the reverse would have been true. The potential/risk for forming or belonging to sects in the past is high with this configuration. Whereas a Pluto 7th/Libra person with this Sn might initiate a wide variety of relationships to different people in (and perhaps even different) groups, the Pluto 8th/Scorpio is very selective with what people and what group it forms relationships with. Because it is the Sn in the 11th, this person has probably developed extensive understanding (Aquarius) of group dynamics and how to assert power within groups. Because of recent lives the Pluto 8th person has been through experiences of personal transformation and these experiences have occurred within groups. Because Pluto in the 8th demands direct experiences, sex with key people (attempting to merge) within groups have probably been a re-occurring theme.
At some point evolutionary forces will produce situations that beckon the person to look inside in search for answers as to why situations have occurred involving manipulation of groups/people. Because both the Sn and Pluto are in fixed archetypes (unless mitigating factors) there might be serious resistance to change in the psychological orientation. For example compulsively searching out people who we think possess something we think we need only to find out that we have been manipulated and are left with emotions of anger and resentment. Thus, cataclysmic events may be common. On the other hand, the ability to focus inwardly (Scorpio) on the reasons in psychological terms of why such an event might have occurred is enhanced in a Pluto in the 8th/Scorpio person.
So, traumatic events (cataclysmic) might be one way that the Sn in the 11th has been affecting the Pluto 8th person in this life or recently in past lives. Such traumatic events would probably be around the theme of manipulation and using or being used by power within groups. Until the PPP is developed, the person will be oriented to the Sn, seeking out people and groups that seem to possess something the person lacks.
PPP in the 2nd house/Nn in the 5th house
The underlying intention (even if unconscious) for a person with Pluto in the 8th house/Scorpio and the Sn in the 11th house/Aquarius is to, via the transformation of one's identity within group dynamics (Sn in the 11th/Aquarius) focus inwardly (Pluto) to identify limitations within (Pluto in the 8th/Scorpio), to alter or remove things in one's psychological make-up so that a metamorphose can occur; to learn how to identify oneself as the resource and source of power (PPP in the 2nd).
Once the person starts to become self-reliant they will start to see that they have something of value (Taurus) that is unique (Aquarius) and that needs to be expressed creatively (Leo). Whether they will be successful or not depends on their ability to link whatever they wish to express to some societal need (whether the society has realized that such a need yet exists or not) (Nn in the 5th/Leo).
Any feedback is greatly appreciated...
All the best,
Henrik
Hi Henrik,
First, the correct way to do these EA paradigms is to start with Pluto because that is the core of desires within the Soul that correlate to it's ongoing evolutionary needs. Then to the S.Node as the vehicle in which these desires became actualized. Then to the polarity point of Pluto as the core of the evolutionary desires for the current life, then to the N.Node as the way in which these core desires will be actualized.
Your analysis covered certain parts of the overall archetypes within the paradigm itself. To the extent of what you included it was very good except the relative lack of development for Pluto's polarity point, and the N.Node. Much more can be said relative to these two parts of the paradigm we are considering. The polarity point for Pluto in this paradigm correlates at a root level to the Soul's inner relationship it has to itself which of course implies the basis of the inner relationship it had to itself before: the natal 8th House Pluto relative to the S.Node in the 11th. Within this what the Soul comes to value and, through extension of those values, what is going to constitute the core meaning for it's life. As a result of this evolutionary growth or change how this then affects how the Soul is in relationship to others in general, and it's intimate others specifically. Bases on this evolutionary growth, the Soul's next steps, how does the Soul go about actualizing these new evolutionary intentions: the N.Node in the 5th ?
God Bless, Rad
Hi Rad.
Thank you for your feedback. I did post a lengthy part I on Pluto in the 8th house where I stated that I would take it step by step and continue with the Sn in the 11th house. I totally agrree with you that the part of the PPP and the Nn is very underdeveloped, maybee I shouldn't have submitted that part and only the Sn/Pluto part. I will take in what you wrote and come back with a more complete follow up.
Thanks again for your time and guidance.
All the best,
Henrik
Hi Rad
I apologize for another delay; my health was not very good.
And then it was not easy to do this assignment, so I had to take more time and do a little research in order to organize my thoughts. Besides of my lack of knowledge, I believe the difficulty has to do with my own chart, my Soul.
Now, here is my try to following your furthering questions on the last paradigm:
Pluto in 8th House, SN in 11th house; PPP in 2nd House, NN in 5th house:
Quote from: Rad on Mar 10, 2011, 11:48 AM
Within this paradigm there also exists the archetypal possibilities of great trauma. What types of trauma do you think this could be ? As a result of possible traumas prior to the current life what impact would those traumas have on the current life ? What would be the way to understand or resolve those traumas relative to the signature of this paradigm ? Within this paradigm there exists the dynamic of compulsions and obsessions that could, as a result, create evolutionary stagnation. What types of compulsions and obsessions would occur within this paradigm, and what would the evolutionary intentions be in order to evolve beyond them ? How do these things then correlate to the type of inner relationship that the Soul has to itself, and what type of inner relationship would occur if the Soul makes the choices to evolve in this life ?
TRAUMA: Psychological research shows that compulsion to repeat the trauma always arouses. But also that repetition by itself only causes further suffering for the victim (past or current) or for people on their surroundings.
In his early works Freud had stated that repetition led to gain mastery in relation to traumatic events. But later he abandoned abreaction (and so did Jung) because he discovered that
what helped to resolve was not repeating but remembering (and elaborating it). Repeating may be only an "˜acting out' without understanding or removing the causes.
Then he stated that "All that we do not remember is repeated" and that remembering is what allows elaboration and resolution.
Thus remembering (Aquarius: long-term memory) and elaborating (attaining objectivity) is the way of not repeating (the causes of trauma or traumatic events, sometimes creating more trauma, or karma), and liberate of them.
I think that compulsion to repetition is Pluto, Scorpio, 8th House, and remembering and elaborating a Uranus, Aquarius, 11th House issue.
(Rad: I elaborated this paragraph from an article: The Compulsion to repeat the Trauma from the Trauma Website you once recommended to Gonzalo; and with what I had studied about Freud's theory. Is that correct from an EA point of view?)
By the way, working with the great Freudian themes (trauma, compulsion to repetition) I was looking at his chart: Pluto and NN in Taurus in 6th House, Moon in 8th house, Scorpio ascendant, Sun conjunct Uranus in Taurus and Mars in 11th House.
Pluto in 8th House, SN in 11th house; PPP in 2nd house, NN in 5th house:
Trauma: I am not sure how to reasoning, but thinking that trauma can be necessary in order to become aware of the emotional patterns that we need to liberate from; and that in this paradigm there may be the need to liberate from emotional or psychological patterns that create limitations, I believe that trauma has been one of the means that SN in 11th house used in order to overcome the limitations that Pluto in VIII felt, and also to destroy and transform the stagnant patterns that this fixed paradigm could have.
I believe that the types of trauma should be looked for, first, in the emotional body and related to 8th House issues. But there may be also trauma in the mental body. Indeed, they are related.
Assuming that compulsion to repetition is Pluto in 8th House, and objectifying is what this Soul has been trying in the last lifetimes (SN in 11th house), I believe that this paradigm has a great potential of trauma, but also a great potential to elaborate and resolve it (11th House) and then transforming its ideas and desires in concrete realities (5th house) that express its values (PPP in 2nd House).
So, trauma in this Soul could be caused by: a) Loss of those that are closest to her/him; b): Abandon, suffered or caused by her/him; c) Betrayal and violations of trust, fundamentally being betrayed, but also having betrayed others; d) sexual trauma; e) excessive attachment; f) memories of persecutions;
These traumas could have happened in prior lifetimes. In the current life it is possible a repetition of them, even a compulsion to repeat the trauma, in order to gain objectivity and become aware of the causes, thus dissolving the patterns that created trauma.
Traumatic events were repressed and are stored in the individuated unconsciousness (Aquarius - Uranus) and can remain as "frozen" fragments of the psyche (complexes) that can even produce some splitting and when reliving they create the feeling that pain is caused by current situations or stress.
a) Loss of relationships: may be the Soul has been, and still is, seeking understanding and detachment in order to not so much suffer.
But it may also be (perhaps more possible) that the individual still tries to cling to in order to prevent loss, or even to manipulate to it. In that case she/he will only create more trauma.
It is also possible that the Soul looks for a prior life relationship in which loss would have happened in order to elaborate it.
In any case trust would be difficult; fear of loss would always be present in a way or other.
b) Abandon: Similar manifestations. Also, fear of abandon can also lead to abandon first in order to avoid pain.
c) Betrayal: If the individual was betrayed I believe the impact would be similar to the former.
Perhaps trust is even more difficult, and suspicion and hidden attitudes in order to avoid betrayal may be possible.
In this case trauma could also manifest in the mental plane (Uranus, 8th house), creating psychologically cataclysmic states.
If she/he was who betrayed, objectivity in order to see her own responsibility can be more difficult because of guilt, and thus the impulse to betray others or even take revenge may appear.
d) Trauma because of violations of trust can include sexual abuse. The individual may have had, or still has, desires to experience and know different forms of manifestation of sexual energy, embracing not conventional forms or taboos. The potential of misuse of sexual energy could create karmic conditions where others could also abuse the individual.
e) Excessive attachment and the consequent need of trauma in order to attain detachment.
f) The person may have also memories of having been persecuted for being different ( 10th House or Capricorn issues that SN in 11th House is trying to liberate from) , and develops a compensation defense mechanism of adopting the appearance of normalcy.
This way the repression of trauma creates more trauma because of feeling that she/he is living a lie.
g) There may also be physiological manifestations of trauma, in the genital or urinary area pancreas and colon; elimination or retentive problems: difficulty on eliminating urine or dehydrating, constipation; also nervous or neurological diseases.
In all these cases,
objectivity - the ability to see that the trauma suffered was the consequence of her/his actions or choices - is the only way to destroy the patterns and overcome trauma. At least it is the way to understand the causes.
The individual has to understand that basically current trauma is rooted in this stagnant patterns and prior choices, and not in the external conditions of the present moment (at least, that she/he attracted these conditions in order to understand and resolve.)
The way to resolve them is
not holding to her/his own stagnant patterns, and understanding that any partnership or friendships that she/he have overly invested herself in such a way that she/he was blocking her growth must be liberated from.
May be she/he was intending to feel more powerful through this attachment, by merging with the other or by controlling. But it is the awareness that this overinvestment and attachment was actually blocking, what empowers the individual and allows her/him to furthering evolution.
The Soul needs develop self-reliance and self-sufficiency and living the relationships from that subjective position.
The individual should have accepted aloneness, even becoming a group of one.
After that, the new form of subjectivity that NN in 5th House is developing will be possible, less dependent on others recognition and taking control of its destiny, thus not depending on external validations or societal conditioning patterns.
The purpose is creatively actualizing the new identity developed by objectively facing limitations and traumatic compulsions deconditioning from past pressures and objectively transforming her/his relationships.
COMPULSIONS
Obsessive thoughts and compulsive acts are behaviors that a person feels impelled by an internal force to actualize. If she doesn't, anxiety or anguish arises.
This compulsive acts or rituals are an attempt to avoid painful feelings emergence to consciousness, as a way to "control" them. Indeed, the individual is controlled by them and by the underlying patterns. This defensive attitude produces stagnation of these patterns and prevents (or delays) evolution.
This Soul can manifest compulsive attitudes in relation to its merging with symbols of power that attracted it, and also to rituals that relate it to them.
Sexual compulsions would be a very possible manifestation, related to situations in which a sexual situation was empowering, or even as repetition of a traumatic sexual event.
The evolutionary intentions in order to evolve beyond them should have been to establish an objective relationship with the objects of its desires, compulsively experienced.
In relationships, for example, the possible compulsive need of being in them may be a distortion of the individual's desire to commit (8th house) and also to overcome her/his limitations. But the compulsive distortion, or distorted compulsion, creates evolutionary stagnation because there can't be commitment without respect for the other's integrity, without freedom to be and to choose.
On the other hand, the compulsive need of somebody doesn't produce overcoming of limitations; on the contrary the compulsive attachment becomes a limitation by itself, indeed is dependency (7th house issues not resolved)
The Soul would be relating with others as being a part of itself, and therefore not allowing identifying its inner essence.
The evolutionary intention should have been deconditioning and liberating from compulsive needs, replacing them by a capacity to detach from people or symbols of power, reducing compulsive dependencies on external objects and thus gaining an objective knowledge of her/his desires and need of them.
Her/his life would be more simple, self reliance and self-sufficiency will be possible, and the ability to commit to a partner in a sustained relationship will manifest.
Adequate choices would be possible because they were based on objectively understanding her/his subjective needs and genuine Soul values.
She/he would then look within, to her/himself as a transformation symbol and become a self-motivated individual who could help others to evolve with freedom.
Thanks so much for your support and guidance
God Bless
Mirta
Hi Mirta,
First, sorry to hear of your health issues. Whatever they are I sure pray that they become resolved. Second your analysis was exceptional. Bravo.
" (Rad: I elaborated this paragraph from an article: The Compulsion to repeat the Trauma from the Trauma Website you once recommended to Gonzalo; and with what I had studied about Freud's theory. Is that correct from an EA point of view?)"
Yes, as far as it went. Beyond the remembering issue, which is important, is the need to objectify the inner dynamics and causes within the Soul itself that then correlates to self knowledge. The famous 8th House WHY. And, then, if the Soul chooses to liberate from such existing dynamics and inner causes to learn how to apply the personal will of the Soul relative to that which will help liberate the Soul from those existing inner dynamics that have lead to the compulsions in the first place.
I really applaud you in your determined efforts to deeply and fully grasp the nature of EA in the ways that you are Mirta. To make the effort that you did to research these issues is truly inspiring to me.
God Bless , Rad
Thanks Rad, I really appreciate all your feedback.
Yes, I am sincerely willing to grasp and understand EA, but I wouldn't be able to do it actually without your encouragement, support and guidance.
God Bless
Mirta
Hi Rad.
Sorry for the delay. Me and my girlfriend is having our baby in June and have been looking for a place to live that can house the three of us. Mirta: sending you good vibrations and hoping that you recover well.
I have tried to rewrite som parts as well as excluding the various stages so as to simplify my analysis.
Rad:Thanks for your patience with my postings as I feel that your fedback is truly helpful...
General Methodology
Pluto in a sign correlates with the generational evolutionary requirements. Pluto in whatever sign and the specific house placement of Pluto will correlates to the individualized patterns in prior identity association to which the person will naturally gravitate to for emotional security. Where you find Pluto there has already been some development of the qualities associated with that sign and house.
The Sn indicates the past formation of ego-centric identities that have been used to actualize the Pluto (desire) function. The soul will choose the position of the moon that best serves its intentions in the current life-time to consciously express itself and its (often unconscious) desires on a moment by moment basis. As the ego evolves it will begin to gravitate more and more towards the Nn on the Sn-Nn axis. I suppose this can happen in the same way as with the evolution of the soul; uniform and/or cataclysmically.
The PPP and the Nn represents counterpoint awareness that is necessary for evolution to continue. The PPP represent the core desires of the soul for this life whereas the Nn represents (unless mitigating circumstances) the direction of the evolving ego and way we consciously can express the unconscious desires of the soul. Here I suppose that for most people the main difference is that awareness of the PPP is unconscious whereas the Nn can be understood even though resisted.
Pluto
Pluto, in whatever house or sign, correlates with the desire (often unconscious) of the soul to evolve. However, Pluto also correlates to unconscious security. Thus, to evolve means to move beyond what constitutes the familiar and therein lies the paradox. This may be why Pluto in any sign and house is often associated with degrees of resistance and compulsive behavior. In whatever sign and house you find Pluto, there has already been some development. Depending on the archetypes of the sign and house you find Pluto and the evolutionary/karmic past may give us a clue as to whether the change will be progressive and/or cataclysmic. The desires emanating from the soul will be transmitted to and acted out via our Mars function on an instinctual basis.
Pluto in 8th House
The why as to the Pluto 8th house individual is because the soul desires to evolve and since the 8th house/Scorpio archetype deals with introspection/penetration and the psychology of why, sooner or later one is bound to discover the limits of what we are vs. what we are not. This means that unavoidably (and necessary so from the point of view of the desire of the soul) the limits of what we are (self, compared to others) becomes a focus area in these peoples' lives. To discover a limit/powerlessness is to realize that which we are not (internal/external confrontation) and this forms the basis for that which we need. So we initiate relationships to people and/or symbols that we feel have something that we need that we currently lack. Whereas Pluto in Libra desired to be in a wide variety of relationships, Pluto in Scorpio is more selective about whom or what they form relationships with. The selection is based on forming relationships to anything that symbolizes something the Pluto in Scorpio person lacks but wants.
Pluto in any house or sign correlates with compulsion. In the 8th house this quality is even more emphasized (double archetype) and it is directed at the desire of power or maybe more to the point, not feeling powerlessness (as in emotionally vulnerable). Can it not be said that we sometimes do things repeatedly that we know (or at least afterwards realize) to be against all logic or rationale? Yet, against our rational judgment, we do it again. Why? It's because such instinctual impulses are associated with unconscious desire (Mars instinctually acting out the desires of Pluto/Soul) (natural inconjunct between 8th/Scorpio and 1st/Aries). However, compulsion can also occur because of unconscious security. In either case compulsive behavior is necessary because it sooner or later leads us to really look deep into ourselves and to identify why we act in such a way. I suppose a Mars in Aries in the 1st house would approach the unknown future (instinctively) in a very different way than a Mars in Taurus in the 2nd house.
The interesting thing about Pluto in the 8th is that these people KNOW what they need (but not WHY). What is at stake is the HOW they go about acquiring what they need. The how implies choice making and this is why karma is heavily emphasized in this configuration. The 8th house Pluto may compulsively be drawn or draw unto them situations or people that are seen as holding some source of power or there may be some sort of attraction on the surface that underneath triggers a repulsion (push/pull). The problem with this compulsion is that it invites manipulation. Again, the Pluto in the 8th knows what they need. Unless the person is evolved and honest to themselves and others about their intentions, the means to their end may be more important than how it is achieved (risk for manipulation).
If there is a true merging of that which we have initiated a relationship with, then we actually evolve via the 2nd house and internalize this as a resource. Pluto in the 8th represents internal and external confrontations on a cyclical basis because there is a dual desire that is acted upon. This behavior comes from the desire to feel secure (separating) and the desire to grow (return).
Sn in the 11th house
The archetype of Aquarius is about objectifying and deconditioning from the clouds of subjective thoughts and the clouds of all that we have identified with that is not intrinsically ours. The intention is to liberate our self from the conditioning of our identity that we have been exposed to from the outside and that we have taken in through interacting with other people and society. In a sense, we are cleansing ourselves from everything that is not inherent to ourselves. Why? We are preparing to focus on our relationship with source of creation. Obviously, except for a very few, this is not consciously felt. This archetype also correlates to the phenomenon of trauma (mental fracturing as a response to an emotional shock). Traumatic events will occur when there has been resistance to the Uranian evolutionary impulse. The intention then is to become aware of some blockage that is preventing us from liberating oneself from the conditioning of the social/society sphere. Just as depression is a natural expression of the Saturnian archetype to adjust our circumstantial inner/outer reality, so trauma is a natural occurrence to an unnatural identification of parts that is not inherent to our true individuality.
The term "point-of-view" nicely describes the process involving the Sn in 11th house/Aquarius. As we interact and observe how people think and act within groups and over time between groups we start to see that depending on where we stand, different views are possible. Some sort of process of detachment is going on in this archetype (or impulses from out of nowhere transmit signals to our mind that ignites thoughts in our consciousness"¦). Thus to detach our self from the different viewpoints allows us to objectively observe and mentally experiment to find out which view best fits our individual self. Through the process of detaching our self we can start to see how we have defined our self and also what parts of our self-definition that has been taken in as a bi-product of conditioning from our external environment. Even though Aquarius is a fixed archetype, because it's in a less dense element than for example earth (like Taurus), it is easier to both experiment with and change to other views. Also, while in a detached state of mind, we may identify some component about our self that prevents us from seeing clearly. By removing this ingredient we can then get a clearer view. Regardless of our evolutionary stage, in some area we will start to get signals that do not fit with those around us. We either ignore or suppress those ideas or we start to look for other groups where people seem to mirror our own view in some area.
So with a Sn in the 11th house/Aquarius, we may expect a behavior that evolves as time goes by; at first there will be a process of objectifying consciously how groups/society has impacted us in terms of values, beliefs, and anything else that we have taken in as a defining part of our self. Over many lifetimes as the ego evolves we start to feel the pull of the Nn more strongly. The ego integrates the tension between the past and the future and gives it form and personal identity in every moment in the present. So the Sn will correlate with those egocentric identities that our soul has chosen in the past in order for its evolutionary intentions to manifest. Thus, the Sn represents the conscious way that we have acted in the past in order to best fulfill/actualize (from the soul's point-of-view) our unconscious desires (Pluto). In a sense the Sn in the 11th house/Aquarius has allowed us to discover how we have been influenced by the outside and what is unique about our self.
Question: Is it correct to view the development of the ego in a more conscious way (from the view-point of our incarnated self) than the development of the soul??? If so, can we interpret the long-term development of Sn to Nn as more conscious process in terms of consciously knowing or feeling the pull from the future?
Depending on the evolutionary stage, the range of possible ways that the Sn in the 11th has been used to fulfill the evolutionary desires of the soul goes from a Saturnian to a Uranian expression, or a blend thereof. Regardless of the evolutionary stage, the person will seek out groups of likeminded souls.
Pluto in 8th house/Sn in the 11th house
The Pluto in the 8th will focus on what constitutes power in these groups and the dynamic that exists. How come this person is the leader or the person with power within the group? What is the dynamic at work here (within the group)? What are the roles and supporting power roles within the group? How do I motivate the people around me to subscribe power to me? What is it that this person has that I lack? How can I incorporate this into my psychological make-up? Is there something that I have identified with that is preventing me from radiating power to other people? Another way the Pluto 8th person with the Sn in the 11th might have experienced the past is betrayal (with)in groups from people he/she considered to be allies/friends (possibly traumatic). The intention is to analyze why? What were the motives of the Pluto person for considering these people to be allies/friends?
With Pluto being in the 8th/Scorpio, the mode of operation has been to wield power within groups (Sn in the 11th) or to align oneself with people and/or groups that seem to signal the transformative symbol of social power. Manipulation or being manipulated via group dynamics and power (often with the aid of sex) has been a central theme. Because of the focus on psychological motivations and group dynamics, this person may very well have developed the ability to form power bases through groups and to be the leader of such groups. Other people will be drawn to this person as someone who might have something they need. Of course, in the past the reverse would have been true. The potential/risk for forming or belonging to sects in the past is high with this configuration. Whereas a Pluto 7th/Libra person with this Sn might initiate a wide variety of relationships to different people in (and perhaps even different) groups, the Pluto 8th/Scorpio is very selective with what people and what group it forms relationships with. Because it is the Sn in the 11th, this person has probably developed extensive understanding (Aquarius) of group dynamics and how to assert power within groups. Because of recent lives the Pluto 8th person has been through experiences of personal transformation and these experiences have occurred within groups. Because Pluto in the 8th demands direct experiences, sex with key people (attempting to merge) within groups have probably been a re-occurring theme.
At some point evolutionary forces will produce situations that beckon the person to look inside in search for answers as to why situations have occurred involving manipulation of groups/people. Because both the Sn and Pluto are in fixed archetypes (unless mitigating factors) there might be serious resistance to change in the psychological orientation. For example compulsively searching out people who we think possess something we think we need only to find out that we have been manipulated and are left with emotions of anger and resentment. Thus, cataclysmic events may be common. On the other hand, the ability to focus inwardly (Scorpio) on the reasons in psychological terms of why such an event might have occurred is enhanced in a Pluto in the 8th/Scorpio person.
So, traumatic events (cataclysmic) might be one way that the Sn in the 11th has been affecting the Pluto 8th person in this life or recently in past lives. Such traumatic events would probably be around the theme of manipulation and using or being used by power within groups. However as as the personal identity (moon) develops from life to life, the gravitational pull from the future (Nn) gets stronger and the person consciously begin to fel the need to actively express their own ideas (Nn in the 5th/Leo).
PPP in the 2nd house/Nn in the 5th house
The underlying intention (even if unconscious) for a person with Pluto in the 8th house/Scorpio and the Sn in the 11th house/Aquarius is to, via the transformation of one's identity (or what it has identified with) within group dynamics (Sn in the 11th/Aquarius) focus inwardly (Pluto) to identify limitations within (Pluto in the 8th/Scorpio), to alter or remove things in one's psychological make-up so that a metamorphose can occur; to learn how to identify oneself as the resource and within finding the source of power (PPP in the 2nd). It is possible that in the past, the Pluto 8th person did not have a healthy relationship to itself inwardly because it didn't trust itself and at times felt powerlessness. Of course this would then be reflected in the external environment as not being able to trust others either. Also, there will have been in the past experiences where the Pluto in the 8th person will have drawn to itself people or situations that would have reflected how the person felt inwardly about themself. In the specific case of the Pluto in the 8th/Sn in the 11th (whatever the level of evolution) past traumas involving betrayal would serve as the spark to initiate a different way of how to relate to oneself. The PPP in the 2nd means to develop trust in one's own abilities and to be able to rely on one's own resources. In other words to reorient oneself in the inner relationship to oneself. As with most Pluto positions in the upper hemisphere there needs to be a movement from the objective to the subjective in order for evolution to proceed. First we observe and objectively understand something then we "put it to use" (subjectively expressing/acting on the understanding). With the Nn in the 5th there is a need to consciously and creatively express ideas, values or anything that constitutes understanding of the Scorpio spectrum of archetypes that is now identified with from within.
Once the person starts to become self-reliant and starts to trust in themselves they will start to see that they have something of value (Taurus) that is unique (Aquarius) and that needs to be expressed creatively (Leo). Whether they will be successful or not depends on their ability to link (objectively Sn in 11th/Aquarius) whatever they wish/need to express (PPPin the 2nd/Nn in the 5th/Leo) to some societal need (Aquarius/11th) (whether the society has realized that such a need yet exists or not).
It is the act of expressing and acting on the insights they have identified with that will help the person to liberate themselves from past traumas and past experiences of betrayal.
PPP in the 2nd will teach the individual to shed the conditioning patterns of the past. In conjunction with the Nn in the 5th, the person will creatively project that which is identified as inherent to them self.
Thank you for you comments and feedback...
All the best,
Henrik
Hi Henrik,
Much better work than the previous effort. A simple way to understand the N.Node in the 2nd, and the 5th House polarity point, is that the Soul is literally learning how to recreate itself FROM THE INSIDE OUT. As a result the Soul in this paradigm must come to a place in their life in which they begin the process of ISOLATING themselves from their overall environment, to literally become a group of one. In so isolating they Soul then recreates the focus within itself to itself instead of other people, groups, or situations that it previously felt it needed in order to feel secure, and to evolve. By recreating it's focus in this way sets in motion an inner journey in which the Soul learns to use itself as it's own symbol of evolution. In so doing the Soul then becomes inwardly aware of capacities and resources that it previously had no idea that it possessed. In so doing the Soul then evolves into new awareness of what it values, and that which constitutes real meaning for it's life. As this is progressively uncovered the Soul then learns how to utterly recreate itself from the inside out, and, in so doing, needs no other external validation from any source to actualize itself in this new evolutionary way. It has begun the process of self sustainment and self reliance.
You stated: "The interesting thing about Pluto in the 8th is that these people KNOW what they need (but not WHY)"
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This is not necessarily true. Many Souls who have an 8th House Pluto understand why they need what they need and become very compulsive because of understanding the why of they need(s). In fact it is often the knowledge as to why they need what they need that is then used as the JUSTIFICATION for the compulsive behavior itself.
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so trauma is a natural occurrence to an unnatural identification of parts that is not inherent to our true individuality.
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This is true but there a vast array of possibilities for the causes of various kinds of trauma in this paradigm.
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Question: Is it correct to view the development of the ego in a more conscious way (from the view-point of our incarnated self) than the development of the soul??? If so, can we interpret the long-term development of Sn to Nn as more conscious process in terms of consciously knowing or feeling the pull from the future?
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The Soul creates the ego of course, it is not something separate from it. Yet, most people on Earth are not consciously aware of their Soul: they are aware of there sense of being an independent person from all other peoples on Earth: something separate. And that is because the center of gravity within their consciousness is there ego instead of their Soul. Thus, most people are aware of the development of their ego, their apparent sense of individual development as contrasted with other individuals. So the answer is yes but, on the other hand, by developing or being more aware of their ego they are simultaneously developing their Soul whether they are aware of this or not.
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Good work Henrik.
God Bless, Rad