NEW PRACTICE CHART THREAD FOR BEGINNERS

[Elen]

Hi Rad,

A few questions:

1) JWG writes: "they have been learning to view themselves outside the confines of time and space."  Could you elaborate on this statement?  I know that "time" is referring to the evolution that occurs from the 10th to the 11th, but I am not sure I understand exactly what that means - how that would manifest in a person's life or in the self-understanding.

2) Re: Consensus expression of this archetype (11th Pluto/1st SN).  I am thinking of someone who has to sew their wild oats before settling down in some way into a more mainstream expression/lifestyle. In this example I am thinking of someone who very much feels themselves to be a part of their community/group, but they need and take leeway to do their own thing until eventually settling into a more "normal" life.

Another possibility is someone who has unique interests that fall outside the mainstream, but whose understanding of these interests is limited by evolutionary state (example: someone who reads a lot about some spiritual tradition; I met someone recently who reads a lot about Taoism, as an example).  While this person's understanding of these unique interests might be limited, nevertheless, the interests help to move the person along, evolutionarily.  Another possible expression of this example would be that these unique interests in some way help the person advance their positioning in society or help them to feel, at an ego level, that they are special.  And this feeling serves their needs at this time.

3) Linda addresses the possibility of this archetype resulting in the slow exhaustion of identity identification (with trauma as a vehicle for this advancement).  I am wondering if this will always be part of the operation of this combination of archetypes...?

Peace and much gratitude,
Ellen

[Elen]

Hi Rad,

One final question: I remember a documentary about Teddy Roosevelt.  At some point in his political life, I believe, he travelled abroad.  In the documentary, someone recollecting that moment in his life commented on how he came back a different person, as though he were now a citizen of the world (after that trip), rather than just a citizen of the United States.  He had grown.  I am wondering if this is what is meant by "standing outside of time and space."  I am also wondering what evolutionary state this example of Teddy Roosevelt represents.  And then finally, how this might occur differently at different evolutionary states.  For spiritual, perhaps, an orientation that is more and more centered in the divine than in humanity...?

Thank you,

Ellen

[Rad]

Hi Linda,

Thanks for making the effort to adjust your analysis to fit the consensus state. Please see below.

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Pluto 11th - SN 1st - PPP 5th - NN 7th

Re-do for CONSENSUS state


Rad's quote:    If you feel like it see if you can come up with an EA analysis that would apply to the Consensus State.


The Soul in the Consensus evolutionary condition identifies with the mainstream of her society, culture and country.  Her orientation to reality is an extension of the conditioning patterns of the consensus, and she cannot go outside of the box until she exhausts all desires in this evolutionary state.  The root desire that propels her Soul forward in the Consensus is the desire to "˜get ahead' of the system.  Her reaction in this condition will be oriented to the past, or showing some ambivalence to social change.

In the Consensus state, the archetype of deconditioning and liberation still operates.  However the 11th house archetype can be quite antithetical to the Saturnian Consensus evolutionary condition.  Her 11th house Pluto has been liberating and breaking her free from conditioning patterns by cyclically shattering her conditioned sense of identity thus allowing her to get just that little bit closer to her essential nature, or authentic unconditioned self....but this is a very long and slow process, filled with resistance, fear, trauma, the unwillingness to change, or to embrace progressive growth.

Being in the Consensus evolutionary condition means general resistance to the 11th house deconditioning impulse because it creates social insecurity within her.  She does not readily experience the joy of just being "free" but is bound by cultural and societal conditionings.  All her life her subconscious or higher mind had been suppressed.  Since the 11th house Pluto archetypal impulse is to become aware of the "unknown," then her safe and secure definitions of reality could become shattered by traumatic events. The degree of resistance equals the degree of trauma necessary to free up the suppressive tendency.

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This is not so. With the S.Node in the 1st House this Soul would in fact have an instinctual nature that gravitated to many activities, within the context of the consensus, that allowed it discover it's own unique, 11th House Pluto, identity relative to those activities. An example of this could manifest as a Soul who either joined, or became a leader of by starting, a group of people who were bonded by a sense of social purpose that was formed to benefit others in the overall society in some way. The S.Node in the 1st is not a symbol that will correlate with 'suppressing' anything. It is about the Soul giving itself an essential freedom to explore whatever desires manifest within it, it's evolutionary context or state, so that the Soul can then actualize it's inherent feeling of being different even within the consensus state. The consensus of the society that the Soul is within may judge this Soul as being 'eccentric', but that judgment would occur relative to activities within the consensus that are 'normal' relative to the parameters of consensus reality. This Soul then would discover, the S.Node in the 1st, who it is in the context of the consensus, the society of birth, relative to such 'eccentric' activities and behaviors. Your analysis that only trauma is that which will cause this Soul to evolve is just not correct.

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This deconditioning process works throughout her life in a unique way via the South Node in the 1st house where she experiences the urge to take new directions in an instinctive and spontaneous way.  These impulses are usually suppressed as they threaten her security patterns.  Therefore she experiences periods of deep depression due to squashing the 1st house impulses.  The impulse for freedom appears to be quite "irrational" and causes insecurity because of her cautious Consensus view of reality - so moving forward is not an easy process. 

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These urges are not suppressed. It seems what you are doing Linda is correlating the consensus state as causing this Soul to suppress. This is not the cause here. The Soul will indeed orientate to activities caused by it's own desires to 'individuate' in the context of the consensus that are socially acceptable to that consensus.

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Her 11th house Pluto subconscious contains that which she is suppressing (due to the Consensus conditionings);  suppression of her instinctual feelings and desires (1st);  suppression of sexuality in general (1st);  and, suppression of a homosexual tendency (11th).  Not acting on these natural urges or impulses would lead to depression, futility and withdrawal"¦and to deep anger (1st house).  She has the choice to either "suppress" or "to act." 

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Again, there is no suppression.

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She would cyclically experience immense "release" of what has been suppressed, due to the archetype of liberation.  Through objective observation and awareness, she learns that whenever she has the "courage" (1st) to decondition herself in any way, that this allows her to get in touch with her innate qualities of intelligence, brilliance, innovation, ingeniousness, and outstanding abilities - and thus to experiment and transform her identity (1st).  But due to these abilities she is usually judged harshly by her society.  When tradition is threatened, the sense of security is also threatened.  Therefore, she has learned that it takes acts of courage to be different, and these can result in periods of "aloneness" (1st). 

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Again, this Soul will orientate to activities and behaviors that within the Consensus reality that allow this Soul to actualize that which is different within itself. Your analysis of doing things that would threaten society would fit a Soul in the individuated state: not the consensus.

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An example of how the 5th house Pluto polarity point can manifest via the 7th house NN is through working with children:  by implementing new types of programs on how to work with or raise children, and acting in a leadership (1st) or counseling role (7th) to "pioneer" these programs (1st) in the community.  Through her natal 11th house Pluto she would encourage the expression of uniqueness and creativity within individual children (5th).  In a role such as this she would feel she had something special or unique to contribute to society. 

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This is a very good analysis that could in fact occur that reflects what I have said above. The difference here is the polarity point which would mean to do such things WITHOUT BEING DEPENDANT ON THE GROUP ITSELF to do so because of the sense of security, 11th House Pluto, that the Soul has had in a group context. The polarity point here means to do such activities from within itself without the need to have the sense of group bonding providing for it's sense of personal security.

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Her desire nature (1st) would lead to the forming of relationships (7th) in which she would learn new ways of relating to others, by learning to "listen" to the other so as to identify their reality, so as to be able to give them what they truly need, and not what she thinks they need from within her own self-reference (5th).  The core narcissism of the 1st house SN needs to be purged by learning that she is an equal among others (7th), and that by learning to give, and not just take, she will learn the fundamental lesson of equality in relationships. 

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Yes.

God Bless, Rad

[Rad]

Hi Ellen,

Hi Rad,

A few questions:

1) JWG writes: "they have been learning to view themselves outside the confines of time and space."  Could you elaborate on this statement?  I know that "time" is referring to the evolution that occurs from the 10th to the 11th, but I am not sure I understand exactly what that means - how that would manifest in a person's life or in the self-understanding.

***************************************************************

You have only supplied one sentance of something that he wrote. I would need to see more of the context in which this sentance existed within to be able help us understand what he wrote. I would suspect that he must have been refering to one of the achetypes of the 11th House which is to totally detach from within itself, devoid of emotional content because of that detachment, so as to then 'objectify' the nature of things including time and space, and the Soul's experience of itself detached from that time and space.

********************************************************************

2) Re: Consensus expression of this archetype (11th Pluto/1st SN).  I am thinking of someone who has to sew their wild oats before settling down in some way into a more mainstream expression/lifestyle. In this example I am thinking of someone who very much feels themselves to be a part of their community/group, but they need and take leeway to do their own thing until eventually settling into a more "normal" life.

Another possibility is someone who has unique interests that fall outside the mainstream, but whose understanding of these interests is limited by evolutionary state (example: someone who reads a lot about some spiritual tradition; I met someone recently who reads a lot about Taoism, as an example).  While this person's understanding of these unique interests might be limited, nevertheless, the interests help to move the person along, evolutionarily.  Another possible expression of this example would be that these unique interests in some way help the person advance their positioning in society or help them to feel, at an ego level, that they are special.  And this feeling serves their needs at this time.

*********************************************************************

Yes, this could be within the total spectrum of archetypal possiblities relative to the paradigm in question.

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3) Linda addresses the possibility of this archetype resulting in the slow exhaustion of identity identification (with trauma as a vehicle for this advancement).  I am wondering if this will always be part of the operation of this combination of archetypes...?

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No. Trauma is not a requirement for the Soul's evolution to occur in the paradigm in question. It is a possiblity, but not a requirement.

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God Bless, Rad

[Linda]

Thank you Rad.

You said:  It is about the Soul giving itself an essential freedom to explore whatever desires manifest within it, it's evolutionary context or state, so that the Soul can then actualize it's inherent feeling of being different even within the consensus state. The consensus of the society that the Soul is within may judge this Soul as being 'eccentric', but that judgment would occur relative to activities within the consensus that are 'normal' relative to the parameters of consensus reality.

It didn't make sense to me that since everyone CONFORMS to being the SAME in the Consensus, that the 11th house Pluto is "different" and yet the "same."

So you are clarifying that this individual will learn how it is "different" WITHIN the Consensus...and will be seen as "eccentric" by the Consensus.  That the Consensus only describes the reality or parameters in which this individual expresses its uniqueness.  I do understand that.

[Dhyana]

Let me know if this post belongs on this thread or if I should start a new thread.

About a day or two after we started this this particular practice chart Pluto in the 11th SN in the first, it just so happened that a person came to me with this same configuration. Synchronistic, I guess we could say. I was happy to have this support going on already as you might imagine.

Perhaps this real example of a real person might shed more understanding to us all and bring this particular practice chart more to life. And it is kind of ironic I should get this person within a couple days of this practice.

So this person I am working with is a male 44 years old who I knew well in my late teens and early 20's. He was a drummer in a rock band back then. I know he always felt a strong connection to me, a sort of kinship, but he would never really allow us to get romantically involved --it was more like he wanted to keep it "brotherly or sisterly" (maybe due to his Gemini of the 8th?? and my Mercury in his first house??, as an aside of course).

In fact, I had never known him to have a serious girlfriend, just attractions and flings here and there, and I do not believe he ever married. Although I am sure his sexual orientation is to woman. He was flirtatious, but does NOT seem to like to give of himself too much in relating (SN H1) NN Taurus H7, yet he had intensity, depth and charisma (SN H1 Scorpio w/ Moon Neptune conj.).

He now lives in LA and works in  the music and movie industry and is fairly successful, but I believe he had dreams of making it to stardom ( would correlate with the PPP H5, combined with H1 SN special purpose), but what he does is actually work more behind the scenes in video and audio or movie set production (Scorpio, Neptune). He is single. I am not sure if he is in  first stage individuated or third stage individuated. He is kind of reaching out to me and I can feel a more spiritual motivation there, so that tends to make me feel he might  be in third?

His Pluto is in Virgo in the 11 opposition Saturn in the 5th -- and the SN is in SCORPIO in the first house conjunct Moon and Neptune.

I would like to write up my analysis on here while including the signs I just mentioned and the conjunction and the opposition, to get some feedback and perhpas ask my questions, to see if I am understanding his evolutionary intention correctly thus far.

This may be useful for the group, as well?


So moderators, is this okay because it is the same configuration Pluto 11/SN h1, or should I start another thread for this because of the additiona information of sign and planets --making this more complicated -- when the basis of this thread was "beginners" --thus would this be mmoving too far from the "keeping it simple" of this thread?

Thanks
Dhyana

birth data for this person is
June 1, 1966
at 522pm
in buffalo new york

[bluesky]

Re: the discussion between Linda and Rad:

what is the difference between eccentric and individuated?  I guess I had assumed that eccentric implied individuated

so Rad, you are saying that individuation within the consensus may give rise to behavior which is considered "eccentric" by the consensus, but not threatening the way individuated behavior (especially, say, 2nd individuated) may be seen by consensus folks?

Hope I have the right - but please feel free to clarify - thanks.

*****
I would like make an observation here - this is an interesting point Rad has brought up.  I have seen instances of consensus folks "individuating" with the full support and approval of the environment around them - but this seems to be especially true if their individuating-within-consensus behavior will somehow enhance the immediate environment and the people in it in some way.

As opposed to people who are individuating in a seemingly threatening manner, and wind up becoming marginalized, etc. instead.

[Linda]

Rad's quotes:  

The consensus of the society that the Soul is within may judge this Soul as being 'eccentric', but that judgment would occur relative to activities within the consensus that are 'normal' relative to the parameters of consensus reality.

Even in the 2nd Stage within the consensus such a Soul could still feel it has something different and unique to contribute.  Remember one of the archetypal dimensions of the 11th house is of 'inventions.'


Rad,

Pluto 11th - SN 1st - PPP 5th - NN 7th

I've put together a condensed RE-DO in the Consensus evolutionary condition.

Consensus (2nd sub-stage):  The Soul perceives there are others who have more than he has:  more possessions of a grander nature, or social positions within society that he does not have.  These perceptions fuel the root desire to get ahead and have more.  

Core Soul intention (unconscious):   To liberate, de-condition, objectify, detach, shed the skins of the past, join groups of like-mind for personal security.

Invention:   To get ahead and have more, he could, for example, invent some contraption using his unique skills to make him more money.  Within this 'normal' Consensus activity (ie inventing something to make more money), he could express his natural inventiveness, creativity, detachment and differentness.  He could be labeled by his society, friends or groups as "eccentric" but accepted nevertheless, for his inventive nature is not threatening, but provides a service or fulfills a need for the Consensus group.  His invention, for example, could be a revolutionary new form of exercise equipment (SN 1st).  His motto:  "I did it my way."

Within what PARAMETERS does he actualize his invention?  It would be within the parameters of the prevailing Consensus reality:  values, customs, norms, rights, wrongs, rules, regulations, and what is required for his ambition to be actualized.  He would completely conform with the Saturnian consensus reality by adhering to all the rules.  For example, he would need to apply for a patent for his design.  

It is possible that he could resist the rules and regulations (the "rebel"), or omit to follow the proper procedures.  In this case, he could suffer fines, rejection, shocks and trauma, forcing him to change and to conform to the prevailing Consensus values.  

Groups of like-mind:  Through the process of actualizing his invention, he would attract others in the same industry.  This could lead him to initiate the formation of a group of like-minded people (11th), where he acts as leader (1st).  Examples could be a gym or health club, sitting on the committee, etc.  His group of people would have the same values as he does, narcissistic, overtly sexual types, etc. (1st)

Sexual attractions/Marriage/Children:    Within his group of friends or associates, he meets many people, has magnetic attractions and sexual adventures (1st).  This group bonding gives him a sense of personal security (11th). These adventures eventually lead to a major "relationship" (still within the codes and values of the Consensus) which then leads to a formal "marriage" (7th) which bears children (5th).  

Lessons in relationships:  With his partner, he learns new relationship patterns:  how to give, how to receive, when to give, when not to give, and how to listen to the reality of his partner in order to give to her according to her reality (7th).  He encourages the uniqueness and creativity within his own children (5th).

In order to provide for his family, he learns to take charge of his own life by translating his innovative ideas into action through his free will.  He undertakes these activities from within himself without the need to have the sense of group bonding that provided for his sense of personal security.  

~~~

Could you please confirm that this exercise is accurate.  It seems there are quite a few of us who are having difficulty, but are just beginning to grasp how this paradigm could play out in the Consensus state.

Thank you Rad for your review of my work.

[Elen]

Re: the discussion between Linda and Rad:

what is the difference between eccentric and individuated?  I guess I had assumed that eccentric implied individuated

so Rad, you are saying that individuation within the consensus may give rise to behavior which is considered "eccentric" by the consensus, but not threatening the way individuated behavior (especially, say, 2nd individuated) may be seen by consensus folks?

Hi bluesky,

This has been a question for me, too, and I am looking forward to Rad's response.  After reading Linda and Rad's exchange, and then reading your question, I wondered if the answer is that the very being of this person, being consensus, simply would not be experienced as a threat, ie, there is no vibe coming from this person that is in fact threatening to consensus reality because this Soul IS consensus.  Thus the consensus will tolerate this person's eccentricity and not see it as a reason to reject her/him.  And perhaps even they will see this person's eccentricity as reflecting back in a positive way about them....?  (Oh, I just read what you wrote below...Seems we're on the same track...) Rad, could you affirm or correct what I've written.


Hope I have the right - but please feel free to clarify - thanks.

*****
I would like make an observation here - this is an interesting point Rad has brought up.  I have seen instances of consensus folks "individuating" with the full support and approval of the environment around them - but this seems to be especially true if their individuating-within-consensus behavior will somehow enhance the immediate environment and the people in it in some way.

As opposed to people who are individuating in a seemingly threatening manner, and wind up becoming marginalized, etc. instead.

[Rad]

Hi Dhyana,

No, this is not the thread to introduce people's charts. This is a practice thread, and at this point, want to keep it as simple as possible: just natal Pluto, the S.Node, Pluto's polarity point, and the N.Node. When you start adding other symbols this will of course determine how the specific archetypes manifest: the individuation of the archetypes themselves. At this point I don't want to do that yet because, after all, this is for beginners to grasp the fundamentals first.

God Bless, Rad

[Rad]

Hi bluesky,

Re: the discussion between Linda and Rad:

what is the difference between eccentric and individuated?  I guess I had assumed that eccentric implied individuated

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It would appear so.

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so Rad, you are saying that individuation within the consensus may give rise to behavior which is considered "eccentric" by the consensus, but not threatening the way individuated behavior (especially, say, 2nd individuated) may be seen by consensus folks?

**********************************************************************

Yes.

*********************************************************************


>

God Bless, Rad

[Rad]

Hi Linda,

YOU HAVE IS EXACTLY RIGHT NOW ........... HIGH FIVES.

God Bless, Rad

[Rad]

Hi Ellen,

"This has been a question for me, too, and I am looking forward to Rad's response.  After reading Linda and Rad's exchange, and then reading your question, I wondered if the answer is that the very being of this person, being consensus, simply would not be experienced as a threat, ie, there is no vibe coming from this person that is in fact threatening to consensus reality because this Soul IS consensus.  Thus the consensus will tolerate this person's eccentricity and not see it as a reason to reject her/him.  And perhaps even they will see this person's eccentricity as reflecting back in a positive way about them....?  (Oh, I just read what you wrote below...Seems we're on the same track...) Rad, could you affirm or correct what I've written."

************************************

This is exactly right ...............

God Bless, Rad

[Rad]

Hi Ellen,

This thread is for practice charts and I would like to keep it that way. Again, the sentence you have taken from JWG has not context around it. It is just a sentence detached, 11th House !!, from it's context. I responded before to what I thought he may have meant.

Briefly: Teddy Roosevelt also had an 11th House Pluto. It is actually pretty amazing of how many of the presidents of the USA have had that. But it also makes perfect sense: a 3rd Stage consensus Soul who detaches from society in order to objectify it, then, in so doing, determines what that society needs to move forwards. In his case, and in his time, he realized that the tycoons and corporations of that time needed massive government intervention in order to regulate their activities. And, in so doing, to recreate American itself so that the common person had a more fair economic shake. It was revolutionary at that time: 11th House Pluto. He was in fact perceived by others in general as being 'eccentric' because of his rugged individuality manifesting in all kinds of ways. He did travel to other places in the world. And that of course expanded his own inner horizons of awareness as to the 'human condition'. This, of course, would happen to almost anyone who does travel to other places. He was totally dedicated to preserving as much of Nature as he could as well: his Venus was in Sagittarius. And, thus, he was responsible to getting all kinds of laws past, for the first time, 11th House Pluto, that tried to protect Nature in the U.S.A. He established all kinds of National Parks that preserved Nature. These were all brand new and innovative ideas at that time. His main focus was to help the 'common person': the normal families of America. His S.Node was in the 4th in Virgo, his N.Node in Pisces in the 10th. This is reinforced by his Cancer Moon in the 2nd, and it's opposition to his 8th House Mars, the lower octave of Pluto, in Capricorn in the 8th. His creating brand new economic regulations and laws that reigned in the tycoons and corporations of that time was revolutionary.

God Bless, Rad

[Elen]

Hi Rad,

Thanks so much for your replies.  I posted my question about Teddy Roosevelt before you had a chance to respond to my first question.  I appreciate your desire to keep this thread bare bones for beginners and so I especially appreciate the information you shared about Roosevelt's life.  I had only meant it (bringing his life up as an example) as a way to see if I was understanding that fragment....  Here's the entire paragraph surrounding that fragment from JWG's book (p. 199):

"As a result ["of learning to liberate themselves from the shackles of the past"], these individuals have needed to reject any situation that arbitrarily defines them; that tells them who and what to be and how to act.  By rebelling they have learned to deflect any external agent that has tried to limit or define them in any way that did not naturally resonate to what they felt they were or were trying to become.  In this way, Eleventh House Pluto individuals have been learning how to remove themselves, to pull away from the mainstream of society.  They have been learning to resist becoming shackled, conditioned or defined by the customs of society.  In addition, they have been learning to view themselves outside the confines of time and space and thereby have developed a sense of objectivity and detachment.  It is as if the have learned to stand on the sidelines of human activity, viewing themselves and others from afar  Because of this, they are disconnected from the bondage of any forms of national or cultural identity."



I struggle with the notion of "standing outside of time".  I get learning to remove oneself from cultural context/conditioning and thus to stand outside of that - to see it and relate to it in an objective manner.  But I have a hard time understanding the objectivity from a "time" perspective...?

Hope this contextualizes and clarifies my question.

Peace,
Ellen