Hi All,
I've been working on an outline of the evolutionary conditions - mostly restating what JWG lectures on but with some of my own inferences - and was hoping for feedback. I'll just post one stage at a time.
Thanks,
Ellen
The Consensus State:
Key Phrase: I CONFORM
Underlying Archetype: Saturn
The need and desire to conform
Defined by separating desires (this was really eye opening understanding for me)
70 % of any collective mass/society is in the Consensus State
How you know someone is in the Consensus State:
The person will agree, without thinking, with whatever the generally agreed upon authorities of the collective say on any given matter.
The 3 Stages of the Consensus State:
Worker Bees: 1st Stage. These are the workers who sustain the society. Their level of self-awareness or consciousness is minimal; their view of and awareness of reality does not go beyond their own immediate, instinctual needs for survival and belonging. They do what they are told. Their behavior is essentially mindless.
The Professional Class: 2nd Stage. These are the people who have (egocentric) desires to succeed beyond the status of the common worker. They are more self-aware than the common worker: they understand the importance of position in society in terms of status and survival. They seek out proper social authorization - education/ training/credentialing - to move beyond worker status to higher levels of social position. They are the CEO's, the university professors, the self-employed business entrepreneurs. They still believe what they are told. Their motivation is still survival (social/psychological) and the need to belong.
The Political Leaders/ High Profile People in Society: 3rd Stage. It can be summed up as "the (egocentric) blind leading the (egocentric) blind". They are still part of the system and now know how it works. They are still operating in an egocentric (separating) manner. Survival and belonging are still their primary driving forces (ie, they do not yet feel a sense of alienation from the collective). Their desire is to manipulate the system to their advantage, according to their desire.
So, could the evolutionary necessity of the Consensus State be summed up as survival, and also as the necessary foundation (to compare/contrast with) for the future, evolving self-awareness to come?
Thanks All,
Ellen
Hi Ellen,
Very interesting thread, and I like the way you summarise these EA principles in your own succinct way.
One thing I've been interested in clearing up for myself is the 3rd stage Consensus.
It seems to be portrayed as being the stage of the "political" leader. I notice that you have put CEOs in the 2nd stage, but I think they might belong in this 3rd stage along with the political leaders.
What I'm not clear on yet, is that in any given society or grouping of people there are always those who are "natural" leaders. In less civilised societies where "might was right" it was mostly always the superior warrior who became the chief, the emperor etc by physical force. Even today that is still basically the criteria (got more weapons then you got more power, so we have the balance of power determined by whose army, airforce, navy is bigger, and in more sinister terms - who has the biggest nuclear strike power). And sometimes the warrior is not in disguise at all - eg the coup staged by the army leader in Fiji who is now ruling the country, Sadam Hussein etc. But not everyone can be a leader, there have to be a majority that are the folllowers.
It's like a pyramid, with the powerful people in society at the top of the pyramid. So to rise to the top of society is to get to the top of the pyramid, and this is the pathway into the Individuated Stage. But it seems a bit like going through the eye of the needle at the top of the pyramid, as not everyone can be a leader. So, if 20% of a society at any point in time are in the Individuated Stage, and they all had to go through the 3rd stage Consensus, then does this mean they all had to be political/social leaders? It would seem that the leaders of of a society do not amount to 20% of that society at any one point in time, or do they? .... or do souls have to wait for a long time to culminate the 3rd stage Consensus (cos there's not much room up there), and only a few are in that position at any one point in time, and they drip feed into the Individuated Stage, just as a few are drip feeding from the Individuated Stage into the Spiritual Stage (which consists of only 3-4% of a society at any point in time).
Upasika
Quote from: Upasika on Mar 03, 2010, 01:47 PM
Hi Ellen,
Very interesting thread, and I like the way you summarise these EA principles in your own succinct way.
One thing I've been interested in clearing up for myself is the 3rd stage Consensus.
It seems to be portrayed as being the stage of the "political" leader. I notice that you have put CEOs in the 2nd stage, but I think they might belong in this 3rd stage along with the political leaders.
What I'm not clear on yet, is that in any given society or grouping of people there are always those who are "natural" leaders. In less civilised societies where "might was right" it was mostly always the superior warrior who became the chief, the emperor etc by physical force. Even today that is still basically the criteria (got more weapons then you got more power, so we have the balance of power determined by whose army, airforce, navy is bigger, and in more sinister terms - who has the biggest nuclear strike power). And sometimes the warrior is not in disguise at all - eg the coup staged by the army leader in Fiji who is now ruling the country, Sadam Hussein etc. But not everyone can be a leader, there have to be a majority that are the folllowers.
It's like a pyramid, with the powerful people in society at the top of the pyramid. So to rise to the top of society is to get to the top of the pyramid, and this is the pathway into the Individuated Stage. But it seems a bit like going through the eye of the needle at the top of the pyramid, as not everyone can be a leader. So, if 20% of a society at any point in time are in the Individuated Stage, and they all had to go through the 3rd stage Consensus, then does this mean they all had to be political/social leaders? It would seem that the leaders of of a society do not amount to 20% of that society at any one point in time, or do they? .... or do souls have to wait for a long time to culminate the 3rd stage Consensus (cos there's not much room up there), and only a few are in that position at any one point in time, and they drip feed into the Individuated Stage, just as a few are drip feeding from the Individuated Stage into the Spiritual Stage (which consists of only 3-4% of a society at any point in time).
Upasika
Hi Upasika,
I have similar questions about this. RE: CEO's. I'm pretty sure I got this correct, ie, what JWG said in his lectures. I remember thinking it seemed odd to me also. However, thinking about it, CEO's aren't what they used to be - heads of mere single-entity corporations. The corporations have morphed into multi-national entities w/ major political power. So perhaps it makes more sense now to put them as 3rd stage...?
RE: the question of whether or not being a political leader is the only way through the gate, perhaps there are levels of this, ie, all the way through the political spectrum, right down to neighborhood associations. I'm guessing here. I don't really know. But it might be one way to make sense of it. Also, the category also includes social icons, I think, so movie stars, the social elite, etc. People strongly in the public eye. So perhaps this widens the gate some. From American culture, for example, would Paris Hilton be considered 3rd stage Consensus? How about Brad Pitt? etc....
BTW, I also had the same question re: 2nd stage spiritual. I know the percentages are small. But it still seems like a lot of spiritually ego-inflated Souls running around at one time. But again, perhaps the answer is that they can manifest in smaller circles...?
Peace,
Ellen
Quote from: Ellen on Mar 03, 2010, 03:48 PM
I have similar questions about this. RE: CEO's. I'm pretty sure I got this correct, ie, what JWG said in his lectures. I remember thinking it seemed odd to me also. However, thinking about it, CEO's aren't what they used to be - heads of mere single-entity corporations. The corporations have morphed into multi-national entities w/ major political power. So perhaps it makes more sense now to put them as 3rd stage...?
Hi Ellen,
I have found a bit more info on CEOs, quote from Rad below ...
Quote from: Rad on Mar 30, 2009, 11:12 AM
In this final subdivision within the consensus state the Soul desires to be "˜on top' of society; to have positions of social importance and relative power, prestige, and material abundance - the politicians, CEO's of corporations, important positions in the business world, mainstream religious leaders, and so on. As a result, these Souls constitute the "˜upper strata' of society.
.... so that probably confirms that they belong in 3rd substage.
Quote from: Ellen on Mar 03, 2010, 03:48 PM
RE: the question of whether or not being a political leader is the only way through the gate, perhaps there are levels of this, ie, all the way through the political spectrum, right down to neighborhood associations. I'm guessing here. I don't really know. But it might be one way to make sense of it. Also, the category also includes social icons, I think, so movie stars, the social elite, etc. People strongly in the public eye. So perhaps this widens the gate some. From American culture, for example, would Paris Hilton be considered 3rd stage Consensus? How about Brad Pitt? etc....
Well, I have no more idea than you if this is right or not, but if it was it makes some sense e.g. the leader of the local neighbourhood association. But it possibly depends on other motivations/beliefs that person has - how much ambition was involved basically in them holding that post? I could imagine they could be just doing the job because they like the social aspect and no-one else in their little group wanted such a boring mundane responsibility. And they might actually have very little interest of the wider world outside their little community. If that was the case they are probably not "upper strata of society" (i.e. 3rd stage Consensus) candidates... or are they? How big is this gate? As for celebrities and socialites ... yes, where do they fit in? Is their status the only criteria?
Guess we need more input from others on this.
Quote from: Ellen on Mar 03, 2010, 03:48 PM
BTW, I also had the same question re: 2nd stage spiritual. I know the percentages are small. But it still seems like a lot of spiritually ego-inflated Souls running around at one time. But again, perhaps the answer is that they can manifest in smaller circles...?
The world's population was about 6.8 billion in 2009.
70% of this = 4.7 billion (Consensus)
20% of this = 1.36 billion (Individuated)
5% of this = 340 million (Spiritual)
... so theoretically that's a lot in the Spiritual Stage now ! (Jeffrey says 5% in Pluto II)
And I'm not sure of %s for substages within the Spiritual Stage but if we assumed for arguments sake it was very very loosely in the same proportion as the whole Stages paradigm i.e 85% in the 1st substage, 14% in the 2nd substage & 1% in the 3rd substage (have no idea how accurate that might actually be!) ... then that would represent 47 million in the 2nd substage !! That indeed would be a lot of "spiritual egos" (as you put it) wandering around the planet at any one time. The same proportions would imply there were 3.4 million fully enlightened souls of the calibre of Buddha etc alive on the planet today. My feeling is that if this were the case, humanity wouldn't be in such dire straights as it is at this point in time, as I understand things anyway. So, I'm not sure about these figures and whether there are actually so many in the 2nd substage of the Spiritual Stage. Again, needs more input.
Love the topic ...
blessings Upasika
Upaskia, I love that you calculated it! I share that same question.
Here's a confusion I have. These days there are SO MANY spiritual teachers/egos talking about the evolution of consciousness on this planet. Some key words I often come across are:
Light bodies
DNA activation
5th domain
Ascension
Planetary ascension
The way I hear these teachers talk about it- it seems like they believe or see the potential for many souls to reach what ea would call third stage spiritual- in just less than a few years from now.
It can take more than hundreds of life times for a soul to evolve from one substate to the next. At the same time, there is clearly something unique happening at this moment in history.
What is a misunderstanding of what is ACTUALLY going on, and what is true? Is it indeed possible for so many souls to experience a rapid exceleration of evolution during this time- which otherwise would normally take hundreds or thousands of lifetimes?
Thank you
Quote from: ari moshe on Mar 03, 2010, 09:19 PM
Is it indeed possible for so many souls to experience a rapid exceleration of evolution during this time- which otherwise would normally take hundreds or thousands of lifetimes?
No - natural law is not going to be suspended for the brilliance of a few million or billion human beings.
Quote
What is a misunderstanding of what is ACTUALLY going on, and what is true?
What you have is boat loads of deluded egos who believe that due to their/our inherent specialness they or we are going to be able to violate all the laws of nature and have mass enlightenment with no money down by next week.
I have told many people the following: "If mass enlightenment occurred next month, the first thing that would happen is all the mental hospitals would be filled overnight".
How hard have you worked for and desired the spiritual growth you have achieved in this life? How easy has it been to attain? You WANTED it, and it was difficult. Now these people run around teaching that every Tom Jenny and Billy on the street, who have spent their whole life resisting every possible expansion of growth, are miraculously going to wake up one morning in full memory of who they are, to live in eternal bliss.
The first thing that happens when the lights go on is you see more of all your past crap. The typical response is deep guilt and remorse. And this is in those of us who actually SEEK such experiences.
So you are telling me that people who have never wanted any of this are going to wake up one morning and understand all this, integrate all their past crap, totally accept themselves and live in peace and total harmony, all over night. Centuries of past ingrained emotional patterns of greed selfishness fear control etc are going to miraculously dissolve and be replaced with eternal love and harmony, in a few months or years.
What is the capacity of a human organism to integrate radical change? That is why I say if this instant enlightenment occurred, the mental hospitals would be full.
Half this planet is starving but people are concerned about their own personal DNA getting activated in light bodies so they can get the hell out of here and leave the ignorant hungry to fend for themselves. Sounds very spiritual to me.
This is delusion, calling itself higher consciousness. The end result of all this greed callousness indifference and delusions of spiritual superiority is going to be very ugly for the human race and all other species on this planet.
In the end the real change on this planet is going to come, as JWG said for years, through circumstantial necessity, when anything other than people changing and banding together for survival collapses and completely stops working. Its not going to be pretty. Then you might start seeing some rapid growth, in the face of very difficult physical conditions.
Upasika
To me you are approaching evolutionary stages from an overly linear perspective. It is not mathematical.
Everything in life proceeds from DESIRE. Its basically a matter of yearning for or believing in something that seems to be what I want. I then go out and work to bring it into form, and eventually experience it.
Over eons of time I gradually discover what I thought I wanted does not create the feelings I thought it would. This brings on crises in loss of meaning and disillusionment. Then questions start arising within "There has to be more than this", which leads to soul searching, which eventually leads to daring to try something new.
The EA term is "exhaustion of separating desires". There are myriads of separating desires, thus it takes a long time.
Simple example - the majority of kids would probably feel its better to receive than to give. What do you have to go through before you reach an inner place where you know, you feel deeply, its better to give than to receive? How long does it take your Soul to realize that? Third stage consensus, in patriarchal reality, is for the most part about taking. What kind and how many disillusioning experiences must one have before they are willing to give up playing a big illusive part in running the show? Very often it takes a massive personal crisis or downfall, that creates context against which the shallowness and selfishness of the life that has been created is revealed. And even when that is finally seen, at that point the person knows no other way to live. That 3rd stage consensus life is all they know. To start all over at ground zero after having been in the illusive heights is not a small thing. They are literally starting at ground zero, releasing all that has been, or else life releases it for them against their will, and they are forced to move on. Imagine how much resistance they are feeling within.
Pluto represents resistance, and we all have resistance to necessary changes. Changes from stage to stage ultimately occur because of shifts in the Soul's desire nature. And what sort of experiences bring about those shifts? How do they feel on the human level? How easy is it to change those ingrained patterns, habits, ways of perceiving reality? It takes a long time and a lot of discouraging events, to move forward on the evolutionary journey. Out of all of that is born compassion, tender understanding of how difficult all this is, which is a signature quality of the highly evolved. They know from personal experience how hard this is. Out of love and caring they come around and help us understand, slowly, by example, by encouraging us when we are discouraged.
As we learn these deeper lessons, we are slowly yet inevitably progressing on that scale of evolutionary Soul stages. The advancement is all based on desire and personal effort.
Hi Steve,
Thanks very much for your input. What you have said about the evolutionary process, especially as it relates to 3rd stage Consensus is interesting and helpful, particularly the "taking" versus "giving", and it being a key hallmark of how separating desires manifest in the Consensus Stage.
Because of the approximate proportions of the population in the different stages that EA gives, I was playfully seeing how this looked in numbers of people as much as anything else, and I don't attach much to it. I understand that it's the desires in a person's Soul that drive that soul's evolution, and that exhausting those desires is a long and winding road, certainly not a linear or mathmatical process.
What I'm much more interested in is getting a clearer understanding of the reality and subtlety of the stages and substages, in particular whether people can be in 3rd stage Consensus without being a CEO of an international organisation or political leader of a country. While people in these roles are clearly in 3rd stage Consensus, is it really simply a matter of role in society?
And what I think I understand you are saying is that it isn't necessarily so. That it has more to do with a person's inner orientation to reality, rather than the specific role they have in society. So what I'm understanding from this is that someone could pass through the 3rd stage Consensus without necessarily having a high profile role in consensus society in any life as such (although many do have), rather it is more about their responses to everyday reality and life, their illusory ambitions and selfishness leading eventually to a fundamental existential crisis and the inevitable release of it all, which can play out within a person on an inner level over many lifetimes regardless of the roles in society the person has in the process. Would this be correct?
thanks, Upasika
QuoteSo what I'm understanding from this is that someone could pass through the 3rd stage Consensus without necessarily having a high profile role in consensus society in any life as such (although many do have),
Hi
These are just some thoughts on this. Don't take this as an authoritative answer.
Relative to desire natures, a person in 3rd stage consensus is going to be focused on attaining positions of power and authority within which they can be seen as special. What Jeffrey called the Zarathustra class. The gist of it being "I am among the elite, the ones who are beyond the rules, who make the rules for everyone, those rules not applying to them.
The
natural archetype here would be to rule in service to the whole - to wield power wisely. The distorted inverted version, most common today, is "I am special, all these peons can just serve me. I am the world shaker and mover."
Within this today you can find not only CEO's but political leaders on all levels - how about Senator Bunning holding up signing unemployment benefit renewal just because he felt like it, saying "Tough shit" when informed how much pain this would be causing to millions. Movie stars and producers, sports stars, even music stars. How about media "stars" who are household names and who lie for a living, every day broadcasting propaganda they know is untrue to keep millions buying into the very systems that are screwing them.
The archetype would be, I have learned how the world system works, how to manipulate it for the personal benefit of myself and my friends and people I care about. I am going to be one of those in that class. Some may not even like that the world is constructed this way, but this is just the way it is, and I'm going to participate and get mine for me. In 3rd stage consensus they aspire to do this on a large scale. Nowadays corruption is everywhere, so buying into that mindset includes accepting corruption. They decide not to care. They accept it as part of the cost of fulfilling those desires for personal specialness.
There are many forms in which that archetype could play out. You recognize it not so much by the outer position but by the inner psychology. 3rd stage consensus exists everywhere, including impoverished nations - look at some of the "leaders" in Africa. They won't be billionaires or household names in the USA. They are people willing to do whatever it takes to rise to the top of the pile, to see themselves as different special and beyond the rules that apply to everyone else. They don't care enough about the cost of this on others to restrain themselves. Not all of them are evil or doing terrible things. They are just willing to live with consequences in exchange for personal glorification and power.
Another example - politicians who will totally change their position on anything as the wind blows. One year I am against gay marriage. Next year gay marriage starts being seen as acceptable. Suddenly I am for gay marriage, and I was really truly always for it, just didn't come right out and say it. The point is, no principles at all except self-advancement. Whatever I need to say or do to get ahead, I'm there.
Steve
Hi Steve,
That is a great way to explain it more clearly - in one way it was nothing new to me at all, it immediately touched a chord deep in my bones as I've always known that this is the Consensus reality, the way they think and operate, and is so transparently obvious in many politicians for starters.
But in another way, the examples you've used regarding 3rd stage Consensus have put it so simply and concisely that it's really honed my appeciation of the subtleness of it, and how to recognise it more clearly. As you say, the events regarding Bunning are an unbelievable yet classic example of it, but I can see now how it relates to anyone with a certain mindset and lack of understanding of their desires and natural law - it's to do with the underlying attitude, regardless of their status in society or how visible they are in it. Which is as I suspected.
What you've said correlates not only to my own inner feeling, but also to observable reality in the world today, so to me it has a natural authority and I'm very appreciative of it. That's really cleared it up for me so thanks very much for your help Steve.
blessings Upasika
Quote from: Upasika on Mar 03, 2010, 05:12 PM
I have found a bit more info on CEOs, quote from Rad below ...
Quote from: Rad on Mar 30, 2009, 11:12 AM
In this final subdivision within the consensus state the Soul desires to be "˜on top' of society; to have positions of social importance and relative power, prestige, and material abundance - the politicians, CEO's of corporations, important positions in the business world, mainstream religious leaders, and so on. As a result, these Souls constitute the "˜upper strata' of society.
.... so that probably confirms that they belong in 3rd substage.
Well that's it, then! Always feels so good to have the confusion cleared!
Quote from: Ellen on Mar 03, 2010, 03:48 PM
But it possibly depends on other motivations/beliefs that person has - how much ambition was involved basically in them holding that post? I could imagine they could be just doing the job because they like the social aspect and no-one else in their little group wanted such a boring mundane responsibility. And they might actually have very little interest of the wider world outside their little community. If that was the case they are probably not "upper strata of society" (i.e. 3rd stage Consensus) candidates... or are they? How big is this gate? As for celebrities and socialites ... yes, where do they fit in? Is their status the only criteria?
Guess we need more input from others on this.
Yes, I agree. We probably need more input. But your thought re: the motivation behind holding such a post makes intuitive sense to me. I haven't read through Steve's posts below - perhaps he clears it up...
Quote from: Ellen on Mar 03, 2010, 03:48 PM
Love the topic ...
Me, too.
Ellen
Quote from: Steve on Mar 04, 2010, 09:25 AM
Quote
The natural archetype here would be to rule in service to the whole - to wield power wisely. The distorted inverted version, most common today, is "I am special, all these peons can just serve me. I am the world shaker and mover."
Hi Steve,
Thanks so much for your responses. The distinction between natural and distorted helps clear things up. In the practice charts thread, I am trying to clear up confusions I'm having re: the individuated stages and this distinction I think is the key.
Examples of distorted 3rd stage do seem everywhere and the world does feel to be a minefield of corruption. I am wondering if someone like Oprah would be an example of 3rd stage Consensus (or is she considered to be in the spiritual state), yet considered as an example of the natural expression of the archetype. And if she is not 3rd stage consensus and/or not considered an example of the natural expression of it, could you possibly offer an example of someone who is... It would help as I am still not sure how to understand what I am observing and how to correlate that to the different states and substages.
Thanks,
Ellen
Steve,
Just want to thank you for your thought-provoking, transformative
and humbling answer in this thread. Your words really helped me.
QuoteExamples of distorted 3rd stage do seem everywhere and the world does feel to be a minefield of corruption. I am wondering if someone like Oprah would be an example of 3rd stage Consensus (or is she considered to be in the spiritual state), yet considered as an example of the natural expression of the archetype. And if she is not 3rd stage consensus and/or not considered an example of the natural expression of it, could you possibly offer an example of someone who is... It would help as I am still not sure how to understand what I am observing and how to correlate that to the different states and substages.
Hi Ellen
I doubt you are going to find many (or any) examples of natural 3rd stage consensus in today's world. I was referring to thousands of years ago, when consensus was more aligned with natural.
I don't know enough about Oprah to know her evolutionary stage. I would guess individuated - she is trying to move society forward into unknowns. Consensus would not be doing that.
The trick of learning the stages is to grasp the underlying psychological archetypes associated with a stage. Then you can begin to recognize that archetype playing out in various forms.
1st stage Indiv - are different, yet afraid to be different - pretend to be normal, are not.
2nd stage Indiv - look very different, have deep anger about the way things are. underneath, fear being pulled back into consensus.
3rd stage indiv - individuality fully formed - no way they can be pulled back to consensus. they seek to reform improve transform the world for the better
1st stage spiritual - feel very small, desire to serve, spirituality is of a devotional nature
I don't know enough about Oprah to know her evolutionary stage. I would guess individuated - she is trying to move society forward into unknowns. Consensus would not be doing that.
Hi Steve,
Thank you so much! This clears up the confusion I was having in the Practice Charts threads re: how to make sense of the Columbine shootings and the linkage I had in my mind between the alienation of the individuated state with destructive rebellion. What a relief! I just couldn't figure out how to equate alienation with constructive action. But it's all around really - all the rights movements of our society.
I will go ahead and post my much more lengthy outline of the individuated states just to be sure I've got it right and hopefully stimulate some more discussion.
Peace,
Ellen
This is my outline for the Individuated State, though it is not really necessary after Steve's post.
The Individuated State:
Key Phrase: I REBEL
Underlying Archetype: Uranus
The need to rebel against the consensus reality
The need to reject the consensus reality as a defining principle in their overall reality
20% of any society/collective mass are in the Individuated State
How you know when someone is in the Individuated State
-will have the inner egocentric psychological experience, regardless of external appearances, of feeling or being different.
-will experience varying degrees of feeling alienated from the Consensus - of not knowing where to fit in.
-says, "I will think for myself!"
The 3 Stages of the Individuated State
Social Insecurity: 1st Individuated Stage. It is marked by feelings of social insecurity. On the one hand, the individual feels different/ alienated from the collective. On the other hand, the individual does not wish to be perceived as different - thus efforts to appear normal (ie, like the majority Consensus collective), despite the reality of inwardly feeling/being different.
Social Alienation: 2nd Individuated Stage. It is marked by feelings of social alienation and consequent anger. People in this stage feel profoundly disconnected from society. They unconsciously fear that their individuality will be absorbed back into the collective if they try to integrate with it, thus they remain apart and criticize society. Eventually, however, people in this stage come to realize that their individuality cannot be reabsorbed back into the collective. As a result they begin to understand that the value of their vision for a better society is in the effort they put into bringing it to fruition in the world.
Social Geniuses: These are the people who evolve society by the very fact of their genius and corresponding contribution. They fully understand that the value is in the effort and act correspondingly to realize their vision in the world. These are the social scientists and inventors.
Hi All,
Ok Steve, can we clear up this Oprah thing - I have asked about her EA stage for a long time and both Kim Marie and Jeffrey have said she is consensus... She has spent 25 years giving make overs for indivuated people turning them into Julia Roberts look a likes, that is not indivuated. She also tells people they are victims... so Im confused. Her relationship to money is very consensus...
I remember on one of the EA school videos, Jeffrey really touched me by almost crying about the love Ronald and Nancy Reagan had for each other, they were clearly consensus, but the love they had was a message to others and got people to think. So would it be that Ms Oprah is in late 3rd consensus moving into Indivuated? She is not 2nd indivuated and not 3rd, but has enough Leo to put her in late 3rd consensus making movement into something larger....
Oprah confusion....
blessings,
pam
Hi Pam ;) et al,
First, I think that determining the evolutionary stage of someone can many times be the most difficult part of the entire analysis, and especially now when the "New Age" information and lingo permeates society.
I wasn't present when either Jeffrey or Kim Marie stated Oprah's evolutionary state, but I agree with the 3rd stage consensus. I thought I'd add to this discussion because I had a client many years ago who had similar thought and behavior patterns (sans the fame and wealth) and asked about her stage on the original MB. I have found that the "New Age" terminology is so wide spread and many more people are studying meditation, crystals, etc., etc., they have the lingo down pat but without the actual evolutionary experience behind it. So we have to dig a little deeper with these people, Oprah being one of them. It is also this "dipping" into the next stage, so to speak, THROUGH the meditation, studying chakras, and what have you, that the 3rd stage consensus can actually begin to and then make the shift TO first stage individuated. This is one thing, for me anyway, that helps when trying to discern the stage someone is in when they SEEM to be split between two stages. The same could be said for someone in 3rd individuated moving toward, or on the cusp of 1st stage spiritual: they HAVE to do the same kinds of things the 1st stage spiritual person would do in order to MOVE to that stage.
I thought I'd add to what you offered, Pam, because I think this is a really good example of "appearance versus reality," that's so necessary to detect for an accurate reading, and you brought up some excellent points. And like you, Steve, pointed out, Oprah does appear to be helping people move beyond the consensus, but for me, anyway, all the guests she has on her show that ARE beyond consensus are also going to make her some big bucks, and it's kind of the "thing" to do. Still, she IS helping in her own way.
As another example of these same dynamics, below is my original question and Jeffrey's answer, with the caveat that besides the alleged 20 years of meditation, the woman had studied a little bit with a "shaman," knew quite a bit about crystals, and a couple of other things. It was only over time (we worked in the same office) that the other language made her stage more apparent.
Evolutionary Stage - Third Stage Consensus to First Stage Individuated
(Q): I'm trying to determine the evolutionary stage of this client. She has Pluto at 2 Leo in in 2nd house conjunct Mercury at 1 Leo in the 2nd and Mars at 10 Leo in the 3rd. The Sun is at 26 Cancer in the 2nd. All this opposes an 8th house Capricorn Moon, which forms the handle of a bucket. The nodal axis is: South Node in Aries in the 11th house, with the North Node opposite. Venus is at 26 Gemini in the 1st house, and Mars squares a Jupiter/Saturn balsamic conjunction in Taurus in the 11th. Venus is inconjunct the 8th house Capricorn Moon. Also, Uranus is in Taurus in the 12th house.
This is the information she wants from a reading: when she is going to get a new job (the one she has is way 'beneath' her); how much money can she expect, and what is going to happen with her social life? She supposedly has been studying with a mentor from India for the last 20 years and meditates, but has never accessed any past life information. In her own words, she has described herself as "Ms. IBM" (she works with computers) and a gray flannel bitch. She has a stuffed shark sitting on her desk, and she said "there's a reason that's sitting here." She "knows how to work the system - play the game and she'll milk this job so she can move on." She refers to herself and her friends as a "female rat pack." She was "born to be a star and will be one again." She refers to "power lunches and breakfasts," and what she wants to be is "a techie, a yuppie, with a little depth on the side." Her ideal job is working at NASA. It would appear she could be compensating, but she is so heavily invested in a power position and cash. Can you shed light on the evolutionary condition and how the meditating fits in with the heavy third stage consensus language?
(A): I would say that she is, in fact, in the third stage consensus, but right on the edge, got one foot tentatively in, the first stage individuated; thus, the India/meditation thing.
This is an excellent and oh-so-important topic! :)
Hi
As I stated in my original answer, I really don't know enough about Oprah to make an informed statement of her evolutionary stage. I never watch her show and I don't pay attention to her career. So I take back my guess of individuated, and leave it to those here more familiar with her life and show who are saying she is 3rd stage consensus.
Hi Everyone,
I have a list in my mind of 4 or 5 famous people who to me seem very invested in wielding power wisely/responsibly in the world but who also seem to fit in. It is unclear to me what their evolutionary states are. I would like to list them here and get feedback from others re: their evolutionary states FOR THE PURPOSES OF BETTER UNDERSTANDING THE EVOLUTIONARY STATES. It is not my intention to gossip. It is possible that this would not be a wise thing to do. So I would like to know if it would be ok to do this before I actually go forward with it.
Thanks,
Ellen
Here is my outline for the spiritual states and the 1st state.
The Spiritual State:
Key Characteristic: Universality
Underlying Archetype: Neptune
3-4% of any society/collective mass are in the Spiritual State
How you know when someone is in the Spiritual State:
People in the Spiritual State will not put down other valid forms of spirituality.
People in the Spiritual State will rightly criticize invalid forms of spirituality.
The 3 Spiritual Stages:
Bhakti Yoga (Devotion): 1st Spiritual Stage. Souls in this stage desire to be of benefit to others. They now understand that they are part of a much vaster cosmos/God-consciousness. They are very childlike and humble. They have no boundaries - no awareness of where they stop and another begins. They appear innocent, sincere, pure and honest. Many become healers.
Spiritual Delusions of Grandeur/Ego Inflation: 2nd Spiritual Stage. Souls in this stage have become deluded into thinking that they have the one and only spiritual truth. Their effort will be directed at trying to convince and convert others. By getting others to support them, they justify their delusions to themselves. However, there will be a fundamental discrepancy between their teachings and the ways in which they live their lives. And, ultimately, they will suffer downfall, forcing humiliation and further purification of the Soul.
My question here is the obvious: Is there really no other way? Could you not find some kind of practice and possibly some community of support that could see you through without giving into the temptation of ego-inflation? Or is this the only way to further purify the Soul?
Guru vs. Avatar: This is the 3rd Spiritual Stage. Souls in this stage become progressively more influential spiritual teachers. Initially, their teachings reach a few people and last only a short while. Eventually, their teachings reach multitudes and last centuries. These latter Souls are Avatars.
The First State of Evolution:
This state of evolution can be broken down into 2 types:
The Newly Evolved (into human consciousness): this is the 1st type
These are Souls who have typically just evolved into human form/consciousness from animal form/consciousness
Their consciousness is limited to a basic awareness of occupying time and space
Typical characteristics: very innocent, very simplistic, naturally happy, inherently buoyant (because they do not know anything else)
These Souls often manifest mental retardation, cretinism and other such deformities
If you look at the eyes, you will see a film over them
The Devolved or Fallen (from higher states of human consciousness): this is the 2nd type
Souls in this state are fulfilling a karmic requirement
Emotionally, they manifest anger and rage (because they know they are now in a limited condition)
If you look at the pupils of these Souls, you will see a brilliant point of white light
JWG mentioned that Hitler had devolved into this type. My question re: evil is, once it devolves does it stay in that state?
Hi Ellen, there's a whole lot of great material here about Evil.
You can search for the word "evil" or "luficer" in the archives: https://forum.schoolofevolutionaryastrology.com/index.php/board,4.0.html (https://forum.schoolofevolutionaryastrology.com/index.php/board,4.0.html)
And in this mb, there was a discussion about evil:
https://forum.schoolofevolutionaryastrology.com/index.php/topic,91.0.html (https://forum.schoolofevolutionaryastrology.com/index.php/topic,91.0.html)
I personally feel it is ok to share that list of famous people. My point of view is God created famous people (Leo) so that astrologers can develop more objective awareness (Aquarius). ;D
But seriously, I feel we are capable of reading these charts with the intent to see things for how they are- and at the same time inwardly honor and appreciate these souls for being on their own journey.
I also think that to really know a soul's evolutionary state, our observations of their character and choices needs to be correlated to the chart in order to properly contextualize everything.
When it comes to Oprah- Rad, I'd love to hear your opinion on her. With Pluto in Leo in the 8th, Neptune in 10th squaring the nodes, with nn in Capricorn in 1st- we can say that it is this soul's destiny to find empowerment from within by rising to social power and influencing the masses. Maybe she's been been hiding behind her social position (neptune in 10th) but is really inside, devoted to help people awaken. She has said on her soul series (a weekly podcast she had on her website a year ago in which she interviewed spiritual teachers including Byron katie, Eckart Tolle, Mariam Williamson etc...) that every day she thanks God that she has the opportunity to serve, and she prays that she be a clear vessel. And it's not a consensus type of prayer- she's talking about awakening, and she is devoted to help raise higher consciousness.
To me this is very much symbolic of that Neptune in the 10th. She comprehends and seems to deeply GRASP these spiritual concepts. Perhaps her outer reality and talk show appearance is just a fascad this soul has adopted to in order to be capable of serving the masses? It's obvious in the gentle way in which she talks to consensus people- adjusting her communication so that she can be accesible to them.
I think Oprah is a good example of having the 'new age' speak down pat. Not to say she isn't sincere - but, she is merely repeating what she's read from a book, - like a Marianne Williamson book. Also, these 'gurus' are the 'brand name' style 'mystics' if you understand what I mean. They have developed a product & they are selling it - the chopras, williamsons, tolles, etc. Not to say they also aren't sincere or have a desire to 'help'. But, I do question these people's motives sometimes.
It also sounds rather egotistical for her to make some claim to being or hoping to be a mouthpiece for God. Again, sounds like she feels pretty powerful - when her 'power' seems to be entirely consensus/ego based. Pat Robertson probably claims to the masses that he, too, just hopes to do God's will. I am skeptical about people who proclaim those types of desires to millions of folks. Zero humility.
'Spiritual' programming isn't the only type of programs she has, either. In many others she shows her consensus opinions/thoughts.
All good points Lucius!
Hi All,
There is also another reason why Oprah, in my opinion is 3rd consensus moving into 1st.. Just to say Ari, by your description she would have to been 2nd or 3rd Spiritual and that just does not feel right for this soul. There are a few things,
1. whats wrong with consensus evolving?
2. Oprahs relationship to her sexual molestation is very victim - victimizer predator prey"¦ its not that simplistic. Any real spiritual teacher knows at the core there is a relationship between these two, its not just simply victim victimizer. If Oprah was that highly evolved then she would know the relationship between these two and would casually albeit restrained put in her teachings about this. The most Oprah does is use Freud by acknowledging that children have sexual feelings and that victims of sexual abuse have sexual feelings. Oprah does not open up the consciousness about this topic. Granted its taboo, we live in a repressed society but still you can at the very least have a discussion about the complex relationship between a victim and the victimizer, She on no level goes there"¦ she could say "its complicated" or ask casually is there "a fate" going on, that in and of itself would open a door, but she does not"¦ I do think Marianne Williamson does do this"¦
I also have to bring in Steven Forrest, who even though he developed EA with Jeffrey, I was never really drawn to as a teacher but one thing he says which I do like is: that when people are in spiritual stages they are radically indivuated. Fitting in does not mean dissolving who you are out. I feel with Oprah that she is internally consensus and all that she learns is what puts her out in the (10th house) world. I don't see her as radically indivated and trying to be toned down to appeal to the masses. I think she is curious and open with her SN in Cancer new phase Uranus in the 7th with the ruler of that SN in 11th (Moon in Sag)..Her curiosity matters she also has Jupiter in Gemini and the 6th house .. She also has a skipped step Neptune in Libra in the 10th with the SN as the resolution node. Neptune in spiritual state is different than in a consensus. Neptune dissolves and is multi.. If she was Spiritual 2nd the Neptune in Libra skipped steps would be to get a firm ground of having spiritual authority and not abuse it, I don't see her on any level as someone who in previous incarnations has abused spiritual authority and is now trying to balance out that authority. Her spiritually is gained through the knowledge she gets from others"¦.
I think she's great and helps people"¦.I just don't know whats wrong with consensus?
I could also be all wrong to, but wanted to add my input and give this some more insight.
Thank you all for the discussion"¦.
pam
Hi Ari,
Thanks so much for the references on evil. I will check out the archives. I've read through the discussion on this message board and don't remember anything indicating what happens to a soul who has reached the diminished state.
Thanks, also, for your insights w/ regard to considering a person in relation to their chart to better understand what is going on. This makes a lot of sense to me. I'll hold off on posting the names (I loved your reasoning re: famous people!). I am thinking that I should look at them myself and see what I come up with on my own. If I'm still baffled, then I can ask for others' input.
Ellen
QuoteI also have to bring in Steven Forrest, who even though he developed EA with Jeffrey
Hi - Something needs to be clarified. Steven Forrest did not "develop EA with Jeffrey". That is a common misconception but it is not true. Jeffrey was out there for years, alone, talking about Pluto and EA. Steven Forrest was writing books about Sun/Moon/Asc astrology while Jeffrey was teaching EA.
Over the years Steven started integrating some of Jeffrey's EA principles into his astrological paradigm. Some years later he approached Jeffrey about the possibility of their doing some workshops together, out of which books could be created. And that did happen. That is when the association of Steven Forrest and Jeffrey began.
Steven later rewrote portions of his earlier books to include more of the EA principles that Jeffrey had been teaching for years.
Thus the idea that Steven co-developed EA is not correct. There are many differences in the EA Steven teaches and Jeffrey's original EA. One of the main reasons this site was created was to be a place where the focus on EA could be back to the original paradigm developed and taught by Jeffrey.
thank you
Hi Ellen, I'd like to offer some information in relation to your understanding and questions about 2nd stage spiritual.
Quote from: Ellen on Mar 06, 2010, 10:52 AM
Spiritual Delusions of Grandeur/Ego Inflation: 2nd Spiritual Stage. Souls in this stage have become deluded into thinking that they have the one and only spiritual truth. Their effort will be directed at trying to convince and convert others. By getting others to support them, they justify their delusions to themselves. However, there will be a fundamental discrepancy between their teachings and the ways in which they live their lives. And, ultimately, they will suffer downfall, forcing humiliation and further purification of the Soul.
My question here is the obvious: Is there really no other way? Could you not find some kind of practice and possibly some community of support that could see you through without giving into the temptation of ego-inflation? Or is this the only way to further purify the Soul?
First, the belief that one has the one and only spiritual truth leading to the need to convince and convert is associated with 3rd stage consensus; people like Billy Graham. Jeffrey used to say that he had "scripture realization" not God realization. The 2nd stage spiritual person DOES actually have a toehold on the truth, but it's only a PIECE of that truth, not the WHOLE truth. That's their "mistake," if you will, thinking that one piece is the whole thing. By the end of 2nd stage spiritual (again, as JWG taught it), the person typically has experienced the first four levels of samadhi, and they DO actually have a certain amount of God realization, but again, it's only partial in comparison to the totallity possible in a human form.
As far as there being another way for the 2nd stage to play out, yes, there is! Jeffrey also taught that these descriptions of the evolutionary stages are only valid in a patriarchal reality, which, sadly, we are still living in. If we were in a different yuga - if we were living according to Natural Law - the descriptions of the stages would be quite different. Now, to there being another way: The more you are able to recover and redesign yourself according to Natural Law (and really INtegrate it) instead of man-made beliefs, the more likely that you can mitigate and/or avoid the kind of spiritual egotism and downfall of the 2nd stage. When we look at the simple terms associated with each of these, we can understand how that's true. Because man-made beliefs are based on self-interest and EXclusion, while natural laws are based on giving, sharing and INclusion, so you can see how these would make a difference in how one would experience the 2nd stage spiritual.
That said, ALL souls still go thru "purification" processes over and over and over as they evolve thru the different stages and into Self-Realization. They may or may not "look" like the downfall of the 2nd stage spiritual person, but since we all have karma from many, many lifetimes, then the process of purification is also part of our evolution, at least as I understand it. In Kriyananda's version of Yogananda's Gita, for example, he points out that even when a soul has reach the point of being a jivan mukta and no longer incurs NEW karma, it still has to work out the karma it accumulated (and has not yet dealt with) in all it's different incarnations. Sigh.... such a long trip, eh?! :)
There's so much more that could be said about all of this, but I hope this helps with this section of the stages, Ellen.
Blessings,
Adina
Hi Adina,
What you have written is very interesting. I woud like to know more about how the evolutionary stages manifest when the world is not not in the grip of the patriarchy but more aligned with natural law. Steve indicated a little bit about how 3rd stage Consensus does, but I'd like to know where there is more info on this, do you know where I might find that?
I'd also like to confirm my understanding of what you are saying. You say that "the belief that one has the one and only spiritual truth leading to the need to convince and convert is associated with 3rd stage consensus". So how does that differ to the 2nd stage spiritual's conviction that their way to the truth is the only way? Is it that the consensus person has no actual experience of the truth whereas the 2nd stage spiritual does, that being the only difference?
thanks, Upasika
Hi Steve,
yes thank you for the correction, EA was developed by JWG....
the quote I just from steven forrest in in either Measuring the night 1 or 2.... I will look for it...
I stand corrected, please forgive my mistake !!!
pam
Hi Upasika,
Quote from: Upasika on Mar 07, 2010, 01:29 PM
Hi Adina,
What you have written is very interesting. I woud like to know more about how the evolutionary stages manifest when the world is not not in the grip of the patriarchy but more aligned with natural law. Steve indicated a little bit about how 3rd stage Consensus does, but I'd like to know where there is more info on this, do you know where I might find that?
I'd also like to confirm my understanding of what you are saying. You say that "the belief that one has the one and only spiritual truth leading to the need to convince and convert is associated with 3rd stage consensus". So how does that differ to the 2nd stage spiritual's conviction that their way to the truth is the only way? Is it that the consensus person has no actual experience of the truth whereas the 2nd stage spiritual does, that being the only difference?
thanks, Upasika
I don't know of any place the evolutionary stages are explained as such in terms of natural law, but if you remember and reflect on the times of natural law being ones of giving, sharing and including, you're well on your way. You can also read books such as
The Chalice and The Blade by Riane Eisler and
When God Was a Woman by Merlin Stone to get a better view of those times.
In relation to your questions about the difference between 3rd stage consensus and 2nd stage spiritual, yes, you're correct in that the consensus person has no ACtual experience of what we call truth / God / etc, while the 2nd stage spiritual person does. But unlike the 3rd consensus soul who thinks their way is the ONLY way, the 2nd spiritual soul does NOT think he has the only WAY; it's that she simply has a PORtion of the total truth, not the entire truth. What they know is "right" so to speak, but there's MORE to be known. Remember that old saying, "A little knowledge is a dangerous thing"? That very much applies here, for in 2nd stage spiritual, beCAUSE of this partial knowledge, the soul then starts to think it knows more than it does, and becomes full of itself, so to speak. Contributing to this is the fact that the center of gravity of consciousness of the 2nd stage spiritual person is also not yet in the soul; it's still in the ego, leading to the delusions of spiritual grandeur.
I hope this better explains the difference between the knowledge of the 3rd stage consensus and the 2nd stage spiritual. Again, the 2nd stage spiritual does not think his or her way or path - their truth - is the only one. They DO have some of the truth, but there's more to it than they realize.
Aha ... that explains it perfectly, thanks very much Adina for that. All makes sense -although I hadn't realised that the 2nd stage spiritual person's gravity of consciousness wasn't in the Soul yet. I thought because they have experienced up to the first four states of Samadhi that they must be, at least to some extent, anchored in the Soul for that to even occur. But from what you say that isn't so.
And I'll try and get hold of the books you mentioned.
thank you,
Upasika
Hi Pam
To make it really clear - I did not make the post about the origins of EA and Steven Forrest's later involvement to criticize what you said. My intentions were not personal about you at all. They were to clarify, for those who come along and read this later, what the actual origins of EA are.
One of the ways the belief that Steven Forrest co-created EA with Jeffrey has spread is because it has been stated in print a number of times. Due to the repetition factor, the more people read that the more it gets accepted as true. Especially when they read it on this message board, whose reason for being is to bring EA back to its original core focus. Thus it is important to clarify certain things said on this board, to stop the spreading of ideas that are not true.
Its clear you meant no harm.
Steve
Hi Steve,
oh yes, I did not take it personally, what I said without really knowing the depth or lack of how Jeffrey and Steven worked together set off a genuine response from you. No problem... I stand corrected about EA development.. It actually got me to re-read the forward to the measuring the night books and yes, steven says he pursured Jeff for his revolutionary ideas...
I also am very particular about clarity so I have no problem in setting the record straight!
thank you for the clarity,
Pam
Hi Adina,
Thank you so much for clarifying the difference between 3rd stage consensus and 2nd stage spiritual for me. It makes a lot of sense. I feel I can relax a tad knowing that there's a possibility of avoiding the pitfall. But I also find it true that it's very hard to carve out a space in this world where one can honor those natural laws and not get eaten alive. It makes me so sad - and tired.
Peace,
Ellen
Hi Everyone,
Here's an attempt I made at Oprah's chart. I was trying to keep in mind 3rd stage consensus. But right off the bat I think I encountered a snare. Would 3rd stage consensus come in really knowing who they are? I'd love feedback.
Also, I'd like to share a personal anecdote regarding Oprah and get feedback on what this might mean in terms of her evolutionary state. I had been ill for a number of years and, somewhere in the throes of that, I wrote her a brief note. I had been feeling grateful at the time for her modeling of giving. I said that when I was well, I wanted to help others. I was not expecting anything back. A few days later while I was walking down the street, I felt a wave of loving energy envelope me. I felt this for some time. I hadn't been thinking about Oprah when it came, but it very much felt like her. My question is, does this say anything about her evolutionary state?
Peace,
Ellen
Here's the link to her astro databank page: http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Winfrey,_Oprah
Oprah Winfrey
Oprah came into this life already knowing in a very deep way her purpose in life. This knowing came from deep within and is based on a deep, psychological understanding of who she is at the core of her being (Pluto in Leo in the 8th house). Her sense of purpose is rooted in a radical inner self-relating that itself is grounded in the experience of being perceived as different by virtue of her belonging to a specific racial/ethnic group. The inner insecurity that this situation produced necessitated the development of a strong inner sense of right and wrong (Moon in Sagittarius in 11th).
Oprah is here to continue the work that was started in a prior life of moving society forward through service (Pluto rx sextile Neptune rx in the 10th house, Neptune rx trine Jupiter rx in 6th house, Neptune rx applying to the SN). This work involves re-patterning society's basic thought structures and moral codes (Mercury in Aquarius in 2nd house conjunct NN completes a grand trine with Jupiter and Neptune). This re-patterning also involves a radical shift in race relations grounded in her own inner sense of self (SN conjunct Uranus rx in Cancer in 7th house, Pluto rx in Leo in 8th). She is also here to realize her dream of freeing her people from the mental patterning of bondage that still lingers through her commitment to education - to literally build educational structures (Grand Trine, Uranus sextile Neptune, NN in capricorn).
Oprah is also here to understand herself in a new way (NN in 1st house). This new way involves personal responsibility and self-reliance (NN in 1st house, PPP in 2nd house). Understanding who she is in the world is of particular importance (Saturn in 10th house). It is not surprising that among her first successes in life was that of beauty queen (Saturn square Venus/Sun). Image is a key theme for Oprah in this life (elevated Neptune applying to SN). The ultimate lesson in this regard seems to be to learn that beauty is within (Neptune rx, Venus conjunct Sun). It is also not surprising that she has struggled with extremes in terms of physical appearance, that this has occurred in the public eye and that this has been an area of personal, inner growth (Neptune in Libra in the 10th trine Jupiter trine Mercury in 2nd house - this is me, conjunct PPP).
Oprah's massive wealth seems very much tied into the personal depths that she has achieved in prior lives which guides and governs and creatively combines with her astute management of her resources (Pluto rx in Leo in the 8th quintile Saturn in Scorpio in the 10th). Her experience of poverty and her father's consequent teaching about saving also factors in. The lesson, in other words, was absorbed deeply, resulting in the accumulation of personal riches (Saturn in Scorpio in the 10th square [1st quarter] Sun/Venus). There is also a connection between wealth and relationship to the Divine (Pluto sextile Neptune in Libra).
What I would add here is that, to me, her huge accumulation of wealth seems connected to her insecurity - a compensation. And this statement seems to go against the previous paragraph, which in turn makes me question the first paragraph. Any thoughts?
Peace,
Ellen
Hi Ellen,
It's great you seem to be now posting without hassles ! I enjoyed your analysis of Oprah, nicely written.
Just a thought ...is Oprah attached to her wealth? I don't see having lots of money as, in itself, necessarily being a only a consensus thing, money comes in many ways, hard work and saving being one of them, but that doesn't mean a person is necessarily consensus does it? Or does it? It is more to do with one's attitude towards money I would have thought (and I know little about her, let alone her real attitude towards her wealth).
Upasika
Hi Ellen,
I'll offer a few thoughts on your experience and on Oprah's evolutionary stage. First, although it was Oprah's example that stirred you, and you wrote to her about it, the bottom line is that you put out the thought - the energy - the pure intention - that you wanted to help others, and you did this "without expectating anything back." God and gurus recognize such pure intentions of selfless love and desire to serve, so my guess is that the universe/source/god'dess heard your desire and confirmed it with that feeling you had. You might have equated it with Oprah because she had been on your mind.
Also, I came across a quote the other day by Oprah that is quite relevant to what we all have been discussing: "Somewhere I have always known I was born for greatness in my life." The operative word here, to me, is "greatness," indicating that she's thinking about herSELF: It's all about HER. Also, other than two issues of her Oprah magazine, she is always the only one on the cover of it. Hmmm. And I think you really answered your own question about whether or not a 3rd stage consensus person would know who they are, just by the fact that you said you 'hit a snare." None of this negates the good she has done for others, and she has done a great deal to help people.
I just remembered another thing that Jeffrey used to say in relation to this very thing, i.e., doing what's right, doing what's 'good,' helping others, etc. because we pretty much all know people in the consensus state who ARE kind and DO give their time and money, etc. to help others. But the bottom line is, does the person do it because they're "supPOSed to" or out of fear of retribution/punishment or simply because it's the right thing to do?
I' hope some others will add to the discussion.
Quote from: Upasika on Mar 09, 2010, 04:21 PM
Hi Ellen,
It's great you seem to be now posting without hassles ! I enjoyed your analysis of Oprah, nicely written.
Just a thought ...is Oprah attached to her wealth? I don't see having lots of money as, in itself, necessarily being a only a consensus thing, money comes in many ways, hard work and saving being one of them, but that doesn't mean a person is necessarily consensus does it? Or does it? It is more to do with one's attitude towards money I would have thought (and I know little about her, let alone her real attitude towards her wealth).
Upasika
Hi Upasika,
Thank you for your kind words. I have similar questions. We all have wounds we're working out. If someone accumulates a lot of wealth as compensation, does that, indeed, define them as consensus? To me, Oprah, frankly, seems 2nd stage spiritual. But it depends, I think, on what, ultimately, got her through her struggles - her sense of belonging to the masses, or her sense of belonging to the Divine. My sense, again, from observation, is a combination of both - her strong sense of identity with the struggles of her ancestors and, through that heritage, a strong faith in God. So I can also completely see an argument for 3rd stage consensus. If money is, indeed, a compensation (the sense I get from what I've observed is that it would be hard for her to let it go), might this - the wounds beneath it - be part of what is in need of healing/purification - the part of seeing only a part of the truth due to the limitations of wounds? Or am I completely misunderstanding this concept? Hopefully Adina or someone else who knows more will respond.
One final thing I would add is that again, based on my observations, her faith does not seem rote, which to me, if I'm getting this, would be characteristic of consensus.
Peace,
Ellen
Quote from: adina on Mar 09, 2010, 04:30 PM
Hi Ellen,
I'll offer a few thoughts on your experience and on Oprah's evolutionary stage. First, although it was Oprah's example that stirred you, and you wrote to her about it, the bottom line is that you put out the thought - the energy - the pure intention - that you wanted to help others, and you did this "without expectating anything back." God and gurus recognize such pure intentions of selfless love and desire to serve, so my guess is that the universe/source/god'dess heard your desire and confirmed it with that feeling you had. You might have equated it with Oprah because she had been on your mind.
Also, I came across a quote the other day by Oprah that is quite relevant to what we all have been discussing: "Somewhere I have always known I was born for greatness in my life." The operative word here, to me, is "greatness," indicating that she's thinking about herSELF: It's all about HER. Also, other than two issues of her Oprah magazine, she is always the only one on the cover of it. Hmmm. And I think you really answered your own question about whether or not a 3rd stage consensus person would know who they are, just by the fact that you said you 'hit a snare." None of this negates the good she has done for others, and she has done a great deal to help people.
I just remembered another thing that Jeffrey used to say in relation to this very thing, i.e., doing what's right, doing what's 'good,' helping others, etc. because we pretty much all know people in the consensus state who ARE kind and DO give their time and money, etc. to help others. But the bottom line is, does the person do it because they're "supPOSed to" or out of fear of retribution/punishment or simply because it's the right thing to do?
I' hope some others will add to the discussion.
Hi Adina,
Thanks for your response. I posted something just as you were posting this, so you have addressed much of my post. I am extremely interested in your perspective. I did want to clarify that in fact Oprah WASN'T on my mind when I had the experience.
Yes, I agree. She very much seems to identify with the "greatness". I think, once again, it is my own still limited understanding of the evolutionary states - and perhaps sufficient acquaintance (not necessarily personal) with examples of people in the spiritual state. The whole thing seems so darn tricky. One question I would like to pose for the purposes of helping me to better understand the states is, is it possible that that identification with greatness that Oprah has is simply part of her flawed nature that is still in need of purification? In other words, are you saying that under no circumstances a 2nd stage spiritual person would identify themselves with greatness? I also talk about money - what seems to be her identification with her wealth - and so I'll ask the same question about money. Does that identification preclude her from 2nd stage spiritual in and of itself?
Here is another anecdote that I read in a book about the founder of the Himalayan Institute (I can't think of his name). In that book is a story of a prince (I believe) who led a very wanton life. In the end he was burned on a pyre. His body was floated down river where a disciple of a guru found it. The guru said, bring him to me, he's mine, and then proceded to bring him back to life. I am not sure what this story means in terms of the evolutionary state of the prince. But I think I always just assumed he was pretty advanced but had this flaw and the life that he lived leading to death on a pyre was the way to purify him. So I think that is where I am coming from re: Oprah.
I very much appreciate any feedback that you have.
Peace,
Ellen
Ellen,
Yes, all these factors are very interesting. But when it comes to Oprah, I'm not from the states, I never watch her show, and so know extremely little about her so I couldn't say one way or another. My question about wealth and consensus was relevant to her, but I was also asking it as a general question as I don't know enough to comment on Oprah specifically.
I like what Adina has to say about her, but again I can only be a passive observer of this chat about Oprah as I know so little about her.
blessings Upasika
Keep in mind one of the people closest to Yogananda was a very wealthy man. Again, its not what you do on the outside, its what you are doing on the inside. This has no direct bearing on Oprah, its intended to illustrate a principle.
From Wikipedia:
Rajarsi Janakananda, born James Jesse Lynn (May 5, 1892 - February 20, 1955) was the leading disciple of the yogi Paramahansa Yogananda and a prominent businessman in the Kansas City, Missouri area. A self-made millionaire when he met Yogananda in 1932, he later left a total endowment of approximately six million dollars to Yogananda's organization, Self-Realization Fellowship, helping ensure its long-term success. Yogananda also chose Janakananda to succeed him as president of Self-Realization Fellowship. Janakananda was president of Self-Realization Fellowship from 1952 until 1955.
James Jesse Lynn was born into relative poverty to Jesse William Lynn, an itinerant farmer, and Salethia Archibald Lynn near Archibald, Louisiana, in the southern part of the United States. His early childhood was spent helping the family pick cotton, milk cows, churn butter, and doing other family chores. His simple education began in a small log schoolhouse.
Leaving school at the age of fourteen, he began working for the Missouri Pacific Railroad, sweeping floors for $2 a month. He continued with various railroad jobs for a few years, quickly moving up to the position of chief clerk to the division manager in Kansas City, Missouri. In Kansas City, he took night classes to finish his high school education, at the same time that he took law and accounting classes.
At 21 he began working at the Bell Telephone accounting division and, before even graduating from law school, he was admitted to the Missouri bar. In 1913, he was married to Freda Josephine Prill of Kansas City. At age 24, Lynn took and passed the Missouri certified public accountant exam, earning the highest score on that exam ever made. Soon after, he began working for the largest underwriting insurance company in the country, U.S. Epperson, and quickly worked his way up in the company. By the age of 30, Lynn had taken out a significant and risky loan to buy the U.S. Epperson Underwriting Company. That step launched a successful business career that included insurance underwriting, oil well and orchard ownership, and large investments in the railroad business. He would become a prominent businessman in the Kansas City area.
In spite of his material success Lynn was unhappy, and acknowledged that he had a short temper and nervous problems. In January, 1932, his life changed when he attended a series of classes given by Paramahansa Yogananda. Lynn felt instantly transformed in Yogananda's presence:
On the second night of the class, I became aware that I was sitting upright, my spine straight and I was absolutely motionless. I looked down at my hands, which were so restlessly moving before and which were now perfectly still"¦ I knew I had found the path that gave me inner peace and satisfaction and that I had found that something tangible I was seeking, a guru.
In Kansas City in 1932, following one of his lectures, Yogananda met Lynn privately. Shortly after that meeting, Lynn was initiated by Yogananda as his disciple. Because of bad publicity in the Kansas City area from his friendship with a previous Hindu teacher, Lynn and Yogananda agreed to avoid publicity regarding their association.
During the following twenty years, Lynn paid frequent visits to Yogananda at his main residence in Los Angeles, eventually moving to an apartment at Yogananda's retreat in Encinitas, California. The two spent long hours together over the years, meditating and discussing spiritual matters. Lynn said of his relationship with Yogananda:
One of the blessings I have received in my friendship with Paramahansa Yogananda has been permanent relief from a state of nervousness, a state of strain, an inward state of uncertainty. I have gained calmness, peace, joy, and a sense of security that cannot come to anyone until he has found the true security of the soul.
On August, 22, 1951, Yogananda gave Lynn the spiritual title Rajarsi Janakananda. Rajarsi combines the Sanskrit words raja, which means royal, and rishi, which means sage; thus the title Royal Sage. The second part of his name refers to King Janaka, famous in ancient India as a wealthy ruler who was also considered a great rishi. Later, Yogananda changed the spelling of James Lynn's sanyassi name, "Rajarsi," to "Rajasi." On Christmas, 1951, Yogananda explained to disciples that the name spelled without the 'r' means "King of the Saints," which is what he felt James Lynn really was. Yogananda said that Janakananda was his most spiritually advanced disciple. Yogananda was also frequently heard to say that he passed his spiritual mantle, or power, to Janakananda.
Hi all,
I have a few general questions, discussion points ...
a) Given the nature of the consensus stage, would it be highly unlikely that someone in this stage (unless at the end of the 3rd substage) would actually go to someone for an astrology reading in the first place? Seems it would be a bit of a contradiction.
b) I realise that it's what's going on the inside rather than outside that determines things, but generally would someone who was a mental health social worker be unlikely to be in consensus stage? The pay is often below average but can be good, but what they are doing is a very unselfish kind of job ... would this generally exclude a consensus type of attitude to life (taking, getting ahead, corruption etc) and thus being at the consensus stage?
c) If someone has done a lot of therapy and self development work on themselves (group processes/workshops/individual and group based therapies etc), would that generally indicate they were in the individuated stage?
blessings Upasika
Hi - my opinions...
Quote
a) Given the nature of the consensus stage, would it be highly unlikely that someone in this stage (unless at the end of the 3rd substage) would actually go to someone for an astrology reading in the first place? Seems it would be a bit of a contradiction.
I agree with that. Astrology is considered by consensus as bogus (except for the daily horoscope) thus consensus people won't be seeking astrological counsel.
Quote
b) I realise that it's what's going on the inside rather than outside that determines things, but generally would someone who was a mental health social worker be unlikely to be in consensus stage? The pay is often below average but can be good, but what they are doing is a very unselfish kind of job ... would this generally exclude a consensus type of attitude to life (taking, getting ahead, corruption etc) and thus being at the consensus stage?
not necessarily. the basic values taught a mental health social worker are the values or ideals of the consensus society. Not everyone in consensus state is selfish or self-centered. Also consider that in the US at least, the majority of mental health social workers are female. Consider the societal conditioning of the sorts of roles and attitudes that females are taught are proper - serving, giving, subduing self to the needs of others. Those are consensus values and can be carried out in a consensus way.
when someone beyond the consensus state finds self in that sort of job, and the sort of institution such people are employed by, they will tend to find themselves rebelling against the structural and philosophical limitations those situations impose.
The end result of consensus mental health social work training would be to orient clients to become functioning members of the consensus society, adopting the collective values - hard work, responsible, family values, church, etc.
Quotec) If someone has done a lot of therapy and self development work on themselves (group processes/workshops/individual and group based therapies etc), would that generally indicate they were in the individuated stage?
That depends on the nature of the therapy and self development work they have done. Remember, the evolutionary pull operates in all stages, including consensus. Virgo energy, for example, has a strong orientation to self-improvement. They could be doing therapy and self development work to become more functional and productive members of the consensus reality, through conforming to the collective stated values while expanding the range of their self-knowledge and awareness, yet still within the realm of what are consensus values.
Individuated and spiritual stage souls will be attracted to a very different type of therapy and self development work, as they will be attempting to break from consensus values and discovering more about their own uniqueness and nature. They will have little interest in trying to find ways to conform to societal expectations.
Steve
Thanks Steve,
Good to hear what you have to say, confirms the astro reading one (I've always felt that), and I can see just what you mean about the mental health worker too, yes they do tend to be women more etc etc and that all makes sense.
I can also see what you mean about the self development situation, but it would need somewhat detailed knowledge of the content of the work they've done to discern accurately. Seems more and more that talking lots with the person and asking many questions before or at the beginning of a reading is unavoidable in many cases to precisely ascertain the stage/substage correctly...takes up a lot of time. I know sometimes it is obvious, and easily intuited or they kind of spell it out for you just by being who they are, but often something of a mini spanish inquisition seems necessary! The hardest one I find to pick is 1st stage individual, because of the compensation element inherent.
Upasika
Hi Dhyana,
If you read back through this thread, you'll see that, indeed, we did discuss Oprah's evolutionary condition in terms of whether she was 3rd consensus or 1st stage individuated, and why.
Quote from: DhyanaDec2 on Mar 09, 2010, 06:01 PM
Is there any reason why no one is mentioning one of the individual states for Oprah? I do not know enough about the states yet or EA to post my sense about this topic, so the reason I am even posting a reply here is bc I think I may be missing something about individualized states? Is there an earlier post or thread I havent read? I just wonder why the discussion is between 3rd consensus or spiritual and not individualized at all? That just seems like a huge gap with a lot of differences that would be very obvious and perhaps the middle ground of somewhere in the individualized states would be considered, and if not, why?. But again, I am very new to this paradigm so maybe I am overlooking the obvious? Curious..
Thanks for any feedback,
Dhyana
The reason for the 3rd consensus/2nd spiritual discussion was that somewhere in the thread someone explained 2nd stage spiritual as one who believes they have the ONE truth and so feels the need to convince and convert others to that truth, which is why they experience the downfall. (Reply no. 20 by Ellen).
Here's what I posted earlier in relation to that: First, the belief that one has the one and only spiritual truth leading to the need to convince and convert is associated with 3rd stage consensus; people like Billy Graham. Jeffrey used to say that he had "scripture realization" not God realization. The 2nd stage spiritual person DOES actually have a toehold on the truth, but it's only a PIECE of that truth, not the WHOLE truth. That's their "mistake," if you will, thinking that one piece is the whole thing. By the end of 2nd stage spiritual (again, as JWG taught it), the person typically has experienced the first four levels of samadhi, and they DO actually have a certain amount of God realization, but again, it's only partial in comparison to the totallity possible in a human form. (Reply No. 26).
Ellen also asked about whether one HAS to experience the 2nd stage downfall as described, so I reiterated the way that Jeffrey taught the evolutionary stages in the first place, as well as the way he said one could avoid that severe a downfall. You'll also find that in Reply No. 26).
If you still have questions after reading that, please let us know. :) As I mentioned earlier, and as MANY EA's have said and experienced, determining the evolutionary stage seems to be one of the most difficult things, especially at first. But it's also one of the most important.
Jeffrey originally covered the evolutionary states in Pluto I and Pluto II, and the Pluto School, and Deva also discussed them in her book, EA: Pluto and Your Karmic Mission.
Blessings,
Adina
Wow,
what a dialogue, this is terrific!
I just have two things to say , Ellen, Oprah has a Neptune in Libra in the 10Th square the Nodes which is a skipped step, with the resolution Node being the SN in cancer in the 7th house. Which to me in the consensus states moving into individuated would be a skipped step of vision and actually having inner authority. She could have in past lives been a authority in a consensus church and is now slowly evolving out of that by developing an inner authority (10th house) of a bigger vision of the life (Neptune), that includes the social other (Libra). The back and forth of the 1st house 7th house axis could produce the evolutionary intent of breaking through (Neptune) of new ideas and inspiration that give her a whole new inner authority, that dissolves (Neptune) previous was of finding authority in the world.
Also as Steve said money lack of or having an abundance of is not the issue, its Oprahs relationship to the money that my feeling is that she thinks that is the only way to make things happen in the world... A spiritual stage person would know that money is like anything else a material, that it is in flow.. manifestation can occur with many different materials... not being attached to the power of money as the only form of power and change, is what a spiritual states teacher would embody Oprah, talks about living in the now etc, but my experience of her is that she thinks money is what makes the world go round .... ( I am simplifying this as I don't have the time right now to do into great depth).
Goodness there are yogis in India who live off a glass of milk a day that's it they manifest nutrition from meditation and the energy that is around them... goddess knows that is not my path in this life, but life is really really big, beautiful...
Adina, I saw Oprah on Barbara Walters and she said, that she had destiny for greatness... That was only ego talking....
Also all this takes time and practice, practice... be gentle with yourself !
have a nice day,
pam
Yes, what a great discussion, indeed!
Pam, thanks for identifying where that Oprah quote came from. I had it written down for some reason, but without the source, and I agree wholeheartedly that it's pure ego behind that statement. I remember what Jeffrey said in the original Pluto school, "Those that really have it (the actual realization behind their teachings that lead to "fame" etc., because of the knowledge, not as the goal) don't WANT it."
Hi Upasika
Quote from: Upasika on Mar 10, 2010, 02:29 AM
... Seems more and more that talking lots with the person and asking many questions before or at the beginning of a reading is unavoidable in many cases to precisely ascertain the stage/substage correctly...takes up a lot of time. I know sometimes it is obvious, and easily intuited or they kind of spell it out for you just by being who they are, but often something of a mini spanish inquisition seems necessary! The hardest one I find to pick is 1st stage individual, because of the compensation element inherent.
I agree with Adina that accurately determining evolutionary stage is one of the more difficult parts of doing EA assessments. I had a lot of trouble with that in the beginning. Still learning in fact, but my accuracy has improved over the years.
I've learned to listen for tell-tale words, beliefs, orientations that become the clues to seeing how someone's consciousness is oriented. That is why I've been writing these posts as I have, emphasizing its more about inner orientation than external circumstances. As I started understanding that, it became much easier to place people accurately.
I've had experiences with 1st stage indiv where someone who appears "normal", in my presence starts discussing beliefs that are well outside the range of consensus beliefs. That I've found is a tipoff. Another is, an astrologer is unlikely to see many consensus people thus in most cases (not all, however) whoever is in front of you is at least 1st stage indiv.
I've also become aware of an effect called Pisces/Neptune/12th house Hiding, where those archetypes tend to mask who they really are. At its extremes this can create a 1st stage spiritual person you could even confuse with consensus, so again it comes back to inner listening a lot more than what you are seeing on the outside. There are reasons for that hiding, also, which can be seen in the chart, and those reasons often need to be brought out during the reading as they can be an important part of the evolutionary signature.
Another tricky assessment is the cusp of two stages. I see many people transitioning from 3rd stage indiv to 1st stage spiritual for example. They will exhibit characteristics of both while seeming to fit neatly into neither. The transition is why. A soul engaged in a transition like that is going to be facing a unique range of archetypes and feelings (culminations and new beginnings), and their chart needs to be interpreted in relation to that inner reality they are experiencing.
Steve
Quote from: PamS on Mar 10, 2010, 08:10 AM
Wow,
what a dialogue, this is terrific!
I just have two things to say , Ellen, Oprah has a Neptune in Libra in the 10Th square the Nodes which is a skipped step, with the resolution Node being the SN in cancer in the 7th house. Which to me in the consensus states moving into individuated would be a skipped step of vision and actually having inner authority. She could have in past lives been a authority in a consensus church and is now slowly evolving out of that by developing an inner authority (10th house) of a bigger vision of the life (Neptune), that includes the social other (Libra). The back and forth of the 1st house 7th house axis could produce the evolutionary intent of breaking through (Neptune) of new ideas and inspiration that give her a whole new inner authority, that dissolves (Neptune) previous was of finding authority in the world.
Hi Pam,
Thank you so much for this. It makes perfect sense to me and completely clears up the matter. That is what I was really struggling with - how to interpret her chart in a consensus way. Now that I've seen it, it makes much more sense to me.
Also as Steve said money lack of or having an abundance of is not the issue, its Oprahs relationship to the money that my feeling is that she thinks that is the only way to make things happen in the world...
Yes, I completely agree with this! Again, you've said it in a way that just completely clicks.
A spiritual stage person would know that money is like anything else a material, that it is in flow.. manifestation can occur with many different materials... not being attached to the power of money as the only form of power and change, is what a spiritual states teacher would embody Oprah, talks about living in the now etc, but my experience of her is that she thinks money is what makes the world go round .... ( I am simplifying this as I don't have the time right now to do into great depth).
Ditto. That's exactly it - "she thinks money is what makes the world go round..."
Goodness there are yogis in India who live off a glass of milk a day that's it they manifest nutrition from meditation and the energy that is around them... goddess knows that is not my path in this life, but life is really really big, beautiful...
Yes, I know that this is true. Based on what you said above, the issue feels really settled for me re: Oprah. I feel like I finally get it. But this last statement above still leaves me with the general question that I posed through the story about the prince. He led a wanton life, was put to death, was revived by his guru (apparently this case is documented in the legal system in India). There is nothing in this story that I remember (I read it a number of years ago) that indicates the prince's evolutionary condition. I have been assuming that since a guru was interested in him, he must be more advanced. But I think that is the error I am making - to make that assumption about his evolutionary state. That would solve the riddle for me, anyway... Perhaps you or others have thoughts on this....
Peace,
Ellen
Adina, I saw Oprah on Barbara Walters and she said, that she had destiny for greatness... That was only ego talking....
Also all this takes time and practice, practice... be gentle with yourself !
have a nice day,
pam
Quote from: adina on Mar 10, 2010, 07:17 AM
The reason for the 3rd consensus/2nd spiritual discussion was that somewhere in the thread someone explained 2nd stage spiritual as one who believes they have the ONE truth and so feels the need to convince and convert others to that truth, which is why they experience the downfall. (Reply no. 20 by Ellen).
Hi Adina and All,
Sorry if I gave the impression that I considered my outlines definitive. My intention in posting them was to clarify my understanding. I have greatly appreciated the feedback and dialog that has occurred here. It has given me better understanding of the stages.
Peace,
Ellen
Hi Steve,
Thanks for posting the bio re: Rajasi Janakananda. It really gives great perspective on wealth, ie, how one is relating to it on an inner level. I also noticed a sense of peace within while reading it, which I think is a clue to these matters that I forget about. So again, it is nice to have this story as a reference point.
Peace,
Ellen
Ellen, there's absolutely NO need to be sorry. You brought up some very good issues and concerns related to the evolutionary stages; you got a good dialogue started on a difficult topic.
Oh, I think I see what you're saying, and yes, my original answer was to because I knew you were trying to clarify your understanding. If I wrote that last post that points to yours in a way that seemed offensive or hurtful, I'm truly sorry, for that was not my intent. My intent was to breifly explain the earlier posts so the next person could see where we were coming from.
Again, you brought a very difficult subject to the forefront and got a good discussion going. Thanks for doing that, Ellen!
Blessings,
Adina
Hi Ellen,
Yes Im with Adina, you are doing terrific! My experience of this kind of knowledge is that no matter I need to taste the truth of it for myself...so teasing out the difficult parts is part of the process.....it helps everyone....\
I think the prince story is deep... I mean think about your own internal processes over life times, when I am in a past life regression I bring back to life all the parts of me that lived wanton lives.. I have lives where I did some fairly nasty things, the guru inside me embraces them no matter what.
Im taking Jeffrey out of context, but as I think he said, sometimes the prostitute in this life was a pious nun in the last. The soul has to experience alll the different forms of sexuality...and maybe the nun thought sex was bad so a few life times down the soul experiences its own shadow..... I also think to me it seems the past lives do not work in a linear order.. But you get my idea around the story, anyways that is what popped up for me when I read it.... Actually as im sinking into it, the story means so many different things.. but i also want to know what you think of it......
take care,
Pam
Quote from: adina on Mar 10, 2010, 05:27 PM
Ellen, there's absolutely NO need to be sorry. You brought up some very good issues and concerns related to the evolutionary stages; you got a good dialogue started on a difficult topic.
Oh, I think I see what you're saying, and yes, my original answer was to because I knew you were trying to clarify your understanding. If I wrote that last post that points to yours in a way that seemed offensive or hurtful, I'm truly sorry, for that was not my intent. My intent was to breifly explain the earlier posts so the next person could see where we were coming from.
Again, you brought a very difficult subject to the forefront and got a good discussion going. Thanks for doing that, Ellen!
Blessings,
Adina
Hey Adina,
Thanks - for everything! The virtual world isn't always the easiest to decipher, so thanks a million. Sorry for misunderstanding. But I'm glad I had the opportunity to clarify my intention. I was also (like you but for different reasons) a little concerned that others reading the posts later might mistake where I was coming from - I wanted it to be clear that my outlines weren't meant to be definitive statements as that assumption would lead to confusion re: basic principles.
So sorry again for misunderstanding. I did understand very much that you were wanting to help Dhyana understand the thread re: 3rd Consensus and 2nd Spiritual and I appreciated that very much. And I very much appreciate now that that was truly your only intention.
Thanks so much for your encouragement. I really appreciate it. Also, thanks, generally speaking, for your posts here and elsewhere. I really value your guidance.
Peace,
Ellen
Quote from: PamS on Mar 10, 2010, 06:45 PM
Hi Ellen,
Yes Im with Adina, you are doing terrific! My experience of this kind of knowledge is that no matter I need to taste the truth of it for myself...so teasing out the difficult parts is part of the process.....it helps everyone....\
I think the prince story is deep... I mean think about your own internal processes over life times, when I am in a past life regression I bring back to life all the parts of me that lived wanton lives.. I have lives where I did some fairly nasty things, the guru inside me embraces them no matter what.
Im taking Jeffrey out of context, but as I think he said, sometimes the prostitute in this life was a pious nun in the last. The soul has to experience alll the different forms of sexuality...and maybe the nun thought sex was bad so a few life times down the soul experiences its own shadow..... I also think to me it seems the past lives do not work in a linear order.. But you get my idea around the story, anyways that is what popped up for me when I read it.... Actually as im sinking into it, the story means so many different things.. but i also want to know what you think of it......
take care,
Pam
Hey Pam,
Thanks so much for your post. I very much appreciate your words of support.
RE: the story about the prince.. I'm not sure what to make of it. I mean, I absolutely accept that it is true. I have no reason to doubt its veracity given the source and given my basic acceptance that we, ie, most of us contemporary humans, are pretty much clueless about what is truly possible in life. To me, a lot of my understanding of the story in terms of evolutionary condition hinges on this idea of who does a (genuine) guru take on as a student - all stages, just individuated and up, etc. In terms of how the story impacts me personally, well, I'd definitely like to know more about the prince's own process re: grappling with his past - I mean, I'm assuming that living that wanton life was absolutely essential for his evolutionary development. So, was it just a matter of getting it out of his system, then he could finally be done with it? (To me, this then becomes relevant with regard to Oprah...) Was there remorse he had to deal with or was he able to simply come away with greater understanding... Things like this I'm curious about. But I think stories are at there best when they just kind of slow brew in you. The understanding comes when the time comes...
Peace for now,
Ellen
Hi Ellen,
I think you are very insightful in reguards to you figuring out in your own way and time... My only addition is, to me it does not matter if the story is true or not, dreams sometimes are more real than life, as you probably know.... And still in reguards to Oprah, it is a deep feeling I get from her that tells me where I think she is living in herself... It does seems to me that even when people live a wanton life you get a feeling from them when you know they have lived a vast life you can see it in their eyes and in they aura.... The Guru question is complicated.... We also live in a Western context where that does not happen as often as it does in other cultures... Ive never had a guru (in this life) who has pulled me out of the world and ointened me, in a way I did it myself, my inner guru.. I understand your struggle, ..
Oprah does something for you so follow it where you need to go, might take you somewhere interesting....
I kinda keep adding to this, as it unfolds, In past lives I have had gurus that I have worked with and my internal guru is from life times of studies...
I still see some of your question as who decides who is evolved? And i still think it is all really paradoxical
keep on keepin on...
blessings,
pam
Hi, I wanted to add my input on this very important topic, and also wanted to say this is a great dialogue to have on the board. In terms of determining the evolutionary state of the Soul mu advice is to ask questions about the person's life (i.e-what is most important to them, and why the reading, etc), and based on the person's answers you can apply the principles of the evolutionary states given in the Ea material. For example, in the individuated state, the person is going to necessarily want to actualize his or her authority within society in a way that is free from the mainstream social conditioning patterns, and reflects the Soul's true individuality. As Steve said, in the 1st stage individuated, there is a lot of fear of breaking out of the box, so to speak, or allowing others to see them as different than those in the majority (the living lie that is described in the Pluto material for this stage of evolution, and the compensation that manifests because of that fear). Yet, the person, at the same time, typically truly desires to be validated and seen for who they really are free from the social conditioning and social mask they wear. The theme in the individuated states, in general, is to break free and liberate from social conditioning patterns, and to actualize their sense of authority in society based on their in herant unique talents and gifts. This need grows increasing more intense as the Soul evolves through this stage. In the spiritual state, the Soul then desires to know itself in a cosmic or holistic context and to merge with the Universal Source. In other words, the Soul desires to know itself as a reflection of the Creator, no longer in a societal context because the individuated process has been completed at this point in the journey. This requires that the Soul dissolves the prior egocentric identification patterns that are linked with its previous social identity in general terms (as a great scientist or psychologist or musician, etc), as the spiritualization of consciousness occurs in this state (no longer the musician but the channel through which the music flows so to speak). The point within this is that by asking questions, and understanding the current challenges the person is facing, you can determine the evolutionary state of the individual based on what is given to us in the EA material. Hope this is helpful.
God Bless
Deva
QuoteDefined by separating desires (this was really eye opening understanding for me)
Hi Ellen,
Just wanted to provide some feedback on your outline that was posted for the consensus state. Overall what you wrote is on point. The one adjustment I would make is what's been quoted above. To me this statement isn't quite accurate because separating desires are intrinsic to all souls on the evolutionary path, in all of the evolutionary conditions. Separating desire is the cause for any of us to incarnate. We incarnate to actualize those separating desires. As long as there is separating desire in the soul, the soul will continue to incarnate. The one exception are god-realized souls who have exhausted all separating desires and have reunited with the Source. When these souls incarnate it is purely on the basis of Divine Will/direction and not separating desire.
If in life we approach our separating desires through the areas of growth that are symbolized by the polarity point of pluto, north node, and north node ruler, this will reflect an emphasis of RETURNING DESIRE in the soul, meaning the desire to return is operating as the stronger force and is directing the actualization of separating desire. When we approach our separating desires/intentions this way, the result will be an expansion of consciousness and development of new capacities which reflect the expansion. If on the other hand, we avoid and resist what the ppp, nn, and nnr are prescribing, and instead maintain a fixed orientation to the past (pluto, sn, snr), this will reflect separating desire being emphasized over returning desire. The result here is that separating desire will merely be maintained...the separating desire will not be resolved or eliminated, which of course then creates increasing stagnation in the soul. The dynamic interplay between these two core desires can of course shift and change throughout life. The point is that in both cases, separating desire is key to the entire process. In life it is up to us to make the choice of whether we will approach our separating desires based on a desire to work towards our ultimate return to the Source, or to approach them in ways that will sustain and prolong our separation.
Within each evolutionary stage there are natural separating desires that reflect the bottom-line intentions in that stage/substage. I'm sure we can all agree that consensus state souls can and do in fact evolve ;-)) If a consensus soul is demonstrating the efforts that are reflected in the evolutionary dynamic (ppp, nn, nnr), this is a validation that returning desire is operating as the more active force in the soul. This is why I would not necessarily say consciousness is defined by separating desire in the consensus stage.
Perhaps what you are getting at is more about the intrinsic density within consensus state consciousness. by density I'm referring to the natural boundary in consciousness that focuses perception on immediate physical reality, i.e. that which is knowable, connected to, and explainable in terms of time/space/matter, This is one reason we find the archetypal linkage to material value associations in the consensus state. It's a reflection of the soul's degree of self-awareness. The term density also refers to the degree of gravity (saturn) centering consciousness in the conscious ego (moon) vs. the soul itself.
In the consensus stage there is not yet a developed capacity to truly objectify reality or one's intrinsic individuality. Those things come in the individuated state. When we connect this to the fundamental orientation of consensus perception to matter/time/space, i.e. external reality, it becomes fairly clear why these souls identify themselves as an extension of the society they're a part of, and why the arbitrary adoption of societal norms, customs, laws, lifestyle, beliefs, time-schedules, etc. We can ask the question, how else would these souls identify and know themselves given this natural parameter in self-awareness at this stage of evolution?
To me, the key in objectively understanding consensus souls (or any soul), as has been touched upon many times already in this thread, is the inner orientation to the intentions reflected in the chart. There is of course the immensely complicating factor that human beings have created an absolute megastructure (society) that is built upon patriarchal distortion. The absolute root of this distortion is the simple orientation of self-interest and exclusion. As already pointed out by others, money of itself is not a problem. How that money is being applied, and the reasons for it, determines if it is problematic. Given the overwhelming magnitude of distortion that currently defines human reality right now, it's important I think to recognize those individuals in power who have substantial influence upon the consensus population, and who are, on balance, applying their power and status to benefit the whole. God knows there isn't a real abundance of such individuals in this point of our history, but I will say that I personally see Oprah Winrey (since she has come up in discussion) as one example of third stage consensus power being applied more to include than to exclude, and more to benefit the whole than take advantage of that whole through a manipulative agenda of self-service.
You also asked the question about deevolved souls. Unless I missed it, I don't think this got answered. The answer is no, they do not remain stuck there. They are simply forced to go back to the initial condition of consciousness when a soul first evolves into human form. All capacities that a deevolved soul had are no longer accessible to them. They can only reinstate them by repeating the work. Because our souls retain full memory of all the lifetimes it lives, these souls know deep with themselves that they have been deevolved and that they had capacities that they no longer have. Given the inner nature that led to the necessity of deevolution, i.e. willfull, conscious intent/choice to do serious harm to others for their own gain, they do not take the sudden and extreme limitation of deevolution well. Inwardly they are very angry, and they tend to attempt to impose the suffering of their own condition upon everyone who is around them. When they come to an acceptance of their condition, and resolve to embrace the work of starting over from square one, and then do that work, evolution will go forward. As evolution is again set in motion, the pace at which these souls move through previously realized stages will tend to be more rapid than souls who are doing it for the first time.
Blessings,
Stacie
Deva,
Great explanation..thanks!
Hi Deva,
That was a very helpful addition to the topic for me.
also Steve, Stacie, thanks for your last replies too, again very helpful.
... everything that someone adds to this topic expands it, and the subtle nuances involved in assessing the difference beween stages/substages gets more clarified, so many thanks to all...
Upasika
Quote from: PamS on Mar 12, 2010, 06:39 AM
Hi Ellen,
I think you are very insightful in reguards to you figuring out in your own way and time... My only addition is, to me it does not matter if the story is true or not, dreams sometimes are more real than life, as you probably know.... And still in reguards to Oprah, it is a deep feeling I get from her that tells me where I think she is living in herself... It does seems to me that even when people live a wanton life you get a feeling from them when you know they have lived a vast life you can see it in their eyes and in they aura.... The Guru question is complicated.... We also live in a Western context where that does not happen as often as it does in other cultures... Ive never had a guru (in this life) who has pulled me out of the world and ointened me, in a way I did it myself, my inner guru.. I understand your struggle, ..
Oprah does something for you so follow it where you need to go, might take you somewhere interesting....
I kinda keep adding to this, as it unfolds, In past lives I have had gurus that I have worked with and my internal guru is from life times of studies...
I still see some of your question as who decides who is evolved? And i still think it is all really paradoxical
keep on keepin on...
blessings,
pam
Hi Pam,
Thanks so much for your thoughtful responses. I truly appreciate the honesty, depth and passion you have brought to this discussion.
Peace,
Ellen
Quote from: Deva on Mar 13, 2010, 08:20 AM
Hi, I wanted to add my input on this very important topic, and also wanted to say this is a great dialogue to have on the board. In terms of determining the evolutionary state of the Soul mu advice is to ask questions about the person's life (i.e-what is most important to them, and why the reading, etc), and based on the person's answers you can apply the principles of the evolutionary states given in the Ea material. For example, in the individuated state, the person is going to necessarily want to actualize his or her authority within society in a way that is free from the mainstream social conditioning patterns, and reflects the Soul's true individuality. As Steve said, in the 1st stage individuated, there is a lot of fear of breaking out of the box, so to speak, or allowing others to see them as different than those in the majority (the living lie that is described in the Pluto material for this stage of evolution, and the compensation that manifests because of that fear). Yet, the person, at the same time, typically truly desires to be validated and seen for who they really are free from the social conditioning and social mask they wear. The theme in the individuated states, in general, is to break free and liberate from social conditioning patterns, and to actualize their sense of authority in society based on their in herant unique talents and gifts. This need grows increasing more intense as the Soul evolves through this stage. In the spiritual state, the Soul then desires to know itself in a cosmic or holistic context and to merge with the Universal Source. In other words, the Soul desires to know itself as a reflection of the Creator, no longer in a societal context because the individuated process has been completed at this point in the journey. This requires that the Soul dissolves the prior egocentric identification patterns that are linked with its previous social identity in general terms (as a great scientist or psychologist or musician, etc), as the spiritualization of consciousness occurs in this state (no longer the musician but the channel through which the music flows so to speak). The point within this is that by asking questions, and understanding the current challenges the person is facing, you can determine the evolutionary state of the individual based on what is given to us in the EA material. Hope this is helpful.
God Bless
Deva
Hi Deva,
Thanks so much for your input. It is easy to forget that the answers lie in the connection you establish with the other, and the awarenesses that then arise within you based on that connection.
Peace,
Ellen
Hi Stacie,
Thanks so much for "righting" my understanding of the consensus state re: separating desires. What you have written makes beautiful sense. Also, thank you so much for answering my question re: the de-evolved state. It is a little scary to think about, but good to know.
Peace,
Ellen
Hi All,
This quote by Sri Yukteswar per Yogananda in Autobiography of a Yogi struck me as relevant to this topic, so I thought I'd share it and see what others think. It may not make quite as much sense out of context, but here goes:
"The interpenetration of man's three bodies is expressed in many ways through his threefold nature," my greate guru went on. "In the wakeful state on earth a human being is conscious more or less of his three vehicles. When he is sensuously intent on tasting, smelling, touching, listening, or seeing, he is working principally through his physical body. Visualizing or willing, he is working mainly through his astral body. His causal being finds expression when man is thinking or diving deep in introspection or meditation; the cosmical thoughts of genius come to the man who habitually contacts his causal body. In this sense an individual may be classified broadly as 'a material man,' 'an energetic man,' or 'an intellectual man.'" (This quote can be found on page 415 of Autobiography of a Yogi, 1994 edition.)
The idea here, if I have understood correctly, is that human beings start out as primarily sense-oriented physical beings, then work their way thru the karma generated at the physical level to the astral realm, then work their way thru the karma generated at the astral level to the causal. So my thinking is:
"material man" = consensus
"astral man" = individuated
"intellectual man" = spiritual
Any thoughts/feedback?
Thanks,
Ellen
thanks for posting this Ellen - I'll be interested myself to see what feedback/answers you get.
All souls are subject to the particular sense organs of being human - if they've incarnated as human. I don't see myself how that is particularly relevant to the evolutionary state in and of itself.
It would seem the soul gets itself engrossed in ego experiences - desires it can fulfill in human form.
Souls incarnate in human form to have that experience of the divine of 'god'. And souls in 'perfect' god realization still need this form for it's expression due to it's requirements.
"Intellectual" as a definition, to me, seems to be the opposite of realization, intuition and actual experience. Many of the 'brand name gurus' have 'intellecutal' qualification - but not much experience.
But, with mercury balsamic conjunct to Pluto I get a bit strange with words - :)
Hi Ellen,
I'm happy to see you keeping this thread going. To me, this component of EA is one of the most important, and possibly one of the least understood (initially) of all the components.
First, since there are many different printings of Autobiography of a Yogi, for those who would like to read this quote in context, it's contained in Ch. 43, The Resurrection of Sri Yukteswar, and is just a few pages from the end of the chapter.
I see where and why you made the connections you did and would generally agree, or as the operative words in the quote indicate, man can be "classified broadly" by these traits of which is "more or less" conscious, and thus "broadly" fit the three stages you indicated. Of course, as you know, as long as we're in a human form, each of us is a MIX of these traits, with the mix determined by or indicative OF the evolutionary state.
I think we can fine tune it further by using the three gunas or attributes of Nature: tamas, rajas, and sattva, or obstruction, activity and expansion. The three gunas, which are at the crux of the caste system in India as it was ORIGINALLY designed and intended, express themselves in humans as ignorance or inertia, activity or struggle, and wisdom. Wisdom is what Yukteswar was referring to with the term intellect. And it's the gunas expressed within the ORIGINAL caste system that the evolutionary stages are based on. Going back, then to the quote and your correlations, you can see where/how the gunas would express themselves in "material man, astral man, and intellectual man." Also, each and every one of us is a mix of these three; it's the preponderance of each that is associated with the stages; for example, a consensus person would have a preponderance of tamas, but also have some rajas and sattva, while a person in the spiritual state would have an ever increasing prepondrance of sattva, but would also have some rajas and tamas. In a person in the individuated state, the preponderance would vary according to where in that state the person is. So it's always a mix of all three.
Lucius, you bring up some good points as well, and I too have difficulty with the term "intellectual" in relation to the spiritual state, but somewhere recently (can't remember where) I read that what as actually meant by the term intellectual was closer to "wisdom," (as I said above), which then makes sense, as wisdom is the result of an expanded and expanding intuitive capacity (right brain), not what we consider an expanded intellect (left brain).
So, this are just my thoughts on it, based on my own learnings and from what JWG taught years ago now. I'm sure others will jump in (or at least I Hope they will) and offer more thoughts / understandings of the stages.
Ellen, somewhere along the way - in our discussion of Oprah - you also asked about the possibility of covering other celebrities, and while no one has said "yes" or "no, " I thought I'd bring one up here and now - one I've been thinking about lately myself because he has what would SEEM to be conflicting aspects to his evolutionary stage, and that is Michael Moore. With the kind of work he does in an effort to expose those who NEED to be exposed for how they treat people, do business, etc., and the fact that while he wants to see change in this country and the world, he is not attached to outcome of his own particular work, just the righting of wrongs, so to speak. He's his own person and sure doesn't fall into lockstep behind ANYbody. And he is definitely INclusive not EXclusive, and looks at all humans as equals.
Then during the presidential election when he was on the interview circuit, someone asked him WHY he does what he does, and his answer was that he's a practicing Roman Catholic, and Jesus said to feed the poor, clothe the naked, etc., and that "as much as you do it for the least of these, you do it to me," Michael Moore said simply, "I thought he MEANT it, so that's why I make these documentaries."
Well, both the revelation that he's a Catholic AND then his reasoning absolutely blew me away. Here's a man that many proclaimed Christians absolutely revile, but who's DOING way more "Christian" things than they are. But the point here is that this man is definitely 3rd stage individuated, and yet he's still part of a man-made religion. There can be many reasons for this, but it is the kind of thing that confuses many EA students - especially at first - because from what I've observed over the years is that any of us can pick up on one particular aspect of a person and let that one aspect determine the evolutionary stage. Now, if we had known that MM was a Catholic beFORE we knew what he did for a living, or saw him in action, I wonder how many of us would have thought he was consensus. There are many other examples available for souls who are far past consensus and yet for any number of reasons are involved in a man-made religion for all or part of a lifetime.
Until we get the hang of listening for ALL the clues, we sometimes need more than an hour with a client to determine the stage, especially when we're new to EA, and especially in light of all the New Age terminology that has become mainstream. So"¦ I hope all this makes some sense, and again, these are my thoughts, and, whew, didn't mean to get so long winded. I hope we can get more good dialogue going from your original post on this topic, Ellen!
Hi Lucius,
Thanks a million for your response. It is forcing me to think through my own reasoning re: my post. Below are some of my comments - my efforts to better understand what I was thinking when I posted. I would be interested in your further responses.
Quote from: Lucius on Mar 21, 2010, 03:17 PM
All souls are subject to the particular sense organs of being human - if they've incarnated as human. I don't see myself how that is particularly relevant to the evolutionary state in and of itself.
This is something I hadn't really thought about re: the evolutionary stages. Of course, you're right. In human form, senses are a given. My thinking about this is that in the consensus state, the focus would be PRIMARILY on the senses, without a lot of awareness beyond them. As the Soul evolves, the senses would still be relevant, ie, part of the experience, but their would be an increasingly expanded understanding of life beyond the senses, or rather, an increasing experiencing of INNER reality - a withdrawing from the senses to the more alive inner state. Does this make sense?
It would seem the soul gets itself engrossed in ego experiences - desires it can fulfill in human form.
My thinking here is similar to above. The more one evolves, the more one's relationship to ego evolves. JWG makes the point that even Jesus had an ego. As I've been understanding it, the question with regard to evolutionary states is, how does one relate to one's ego. In prior posts, people (I can't remember who - maybe Adina and Pam) made the (excellent) point that Oprah, in an interview, stated that she knew she was destined for greatness, or something like that. The point being that Oprah was identifying with her ego. It IS hard to imagine Jesus or Yogananda or etc. making such a statement or identifying themselves in that way. In consensus, I'm thinking, ego=it's about me. In spiritual, ego=it's about God. The person in spiritual would, I think, be more AWARE of the ego traps. The consensus person wouldn't. At any rate, this is how I'm thinking about it at this time.
Souls incarnate in human form to have that experience of the divine of 'god'. And souls in 'perfect' god realization still need this form for it's expression due to it's requirements.
But isn't this a PROCESS - one that evolves THROUGH the evolutionary stages? Would a person in consensus be AWARE that that was the purpose of life?
"Intellectual" as a definition, to me, seems to be the opposite of realization, intuition and actual experience. Many of the 'brand name gurus' have 'intellecutal' qualification - but not much experience.
I also didn't like the word, "intellectual". It seemed not to suit what was meant by the quote. I think it was meant as a way of communicating something along the lines of (ie, in EA parlance) "free from separating desires..."
But, with mercury balsamic conjunct to Pluto I get a bit strange with words - :)
Much peace,
Ellen
Hi Adina,
Thanks so much for your post. You have clarified and explained further/better much of what I was getting at. Thank you so much for that. I'll respond in more detail in the next couple days. Very interesting re: Michael Moore.
Peace,
Ellen
Here's a link to Michael Moore's bio and chart (astro databank)
http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Moore,_Michael_(1954)
Thanks for pursuing the thread, Adina. It is helping me a ton to have these conversations. I am really beginning to understand the people in my own life so much better - and with so much more forgiveness now that I am understanding these evolutionary distinctions.
After Moore, I definitely have some more I'd like to throw out there. For me, I think, the more discussion the better re: improving my understanding and familiarity on this matter.
Peace,
Ellen
One more follow up re: Oprah. Here's a quote from The Rubaiyat of Omar Khayyam Explained (Swami Kriyananda, tr. 2008 ed.) that I thought nailed it on the head re: Oprah and once more helped me to really understand where people are coming from re: 3rd stage consensus designation for Oprah.
The Quatrain (#9) is this:
But come with old Khayyam, and leave the Lot
Of Kaikobad and Kaikhosru forgot:
Let Rustim lay about him as he will,
Or Hatim Tai cry Supper - heed them not.
Here's the quote - it explains what is meant by invoking the name, Hatim Tai: "Hatim Tai - The rich, whose very deeds of benevolence feed people's desire for worldly possessions and enjoyments. Hatim Tai, an ancient king, was noted for his generous acts, which included feeding the poor. Omar Khayyam was not belittling such acts of kindness. Rather, he was reminding us, simply, that outer fulfillment is not a permanently satisfying goal."
This really nails it for me in understanding my own attraction/repulsion to Oprah. And helps me really understand 3rd stage consensus for her.
Thanks everyone - I've learned a ton through this dialogue on Oprah,
Ellen
Quote from: adina on Mar 21, 2010, 06:03 PM
Hi Ellen,
I think we can fine tune it further by using the three gunas or attributes of Nature: tamas, rajas, and sattva, or obstruction, activity and expansion. The three gunas, which are at the crux of the caste system in India as it was ORIGINALLY designed and intended, express themselves in humans as ignorance or inertia, activity or struggle, and wisdom. Wisdom is what Yukteswar was referring to with the term intellect. And it's the gunas expressed within the ORIGINAL caste system that the evolutionary stages are based on. Going back, then to the quote and your correlations, you can see where/how the gunas would express themselves in "material man, astral man, and intellectual man." Also, each and every one of us is a mix of these three; it's the preponderance of each that is associated with the stages; for example, a consensus person would have a preponderance of tamas, but also have some rajas and sattva, while a person in the spiritual state would have an ever increasing prepondrance of sattva, but would also have some rajas and tamas. In a person in the individuated state, the preponderance would vary according to where in that state the person is. So it's always a mix of all three.
Thanks so much for this Adina. Thinking about it in terms of the 3 gunas really helps. Also, the word "preponderance" really helps. As Lucius was saying, and now you, we are all a mix of all. That fact in itself probably explains why it can be so hard to really pinpoint where a person is. It sure helps me to understand my own ongoing confusions about myself! :D
Peace,
Ellen
Ellen, thanks for your kind words and for your additional information. I agree that Kriyananda's explanation of that quatrain in the Rubyiat helps explain Oprah (and others).
I know what you mean about understanding oneself better in relation to the mix of the gunas. Another thing that was discussed by JWG somewhere along the way that has helped me was the fact that when one has skipped steps to recover, they can APPEAR to be, or SEEM to be, in an earlier evolutionary stage than they actually are unTIL they recover those skipped steps. And boy, do I know THIS one from personal experience! LOL That "appearance" would depend on the nature and number of skipped steps, along with any other "extenuating' circumstances.
Yes, let's keep this thread going. It's a crucial art of EA! Thanks again for your input, Ellen!
Quote from: adina on Mar 23, 2010, 04:50 PM
Another thing that was discussed by JWG somewhere along the way that has helped me was the fact that when one has skipped steps to recover, they can APPEAR to be, or SEEM to be, in an earlier evolutionary stage than they actually are unTIL they recover those skipped steps. And boy, do I know THIS one from personal experience! LOL That "appearance" would depend on the nature and number of skipped steps, along with any other "extenuating' circumstances.
Hey Adina,
Thanks for this. I, too, have skipped steps and am looking forward to my 2nd Saturn return and hopefully some more clarity! In the meantime, so much WORK to do!!!
Peace,
Ellen
I was curious if Michael Moore had skipped steps given his early desire to enter the priesthood and Adina having identified him as 3rd stage individuated. Sure enough, he does x2. Mercury (in Aries) squares the nodes, applying to the NN (in Capricorn) - speaking his mind to the establishment?. Neptune (in Libra) also squares the nodes, applying to the SN (in Cancer, conjunct Uranus) - needing to break free of his early conditioning and from his tendencies to try to please others?. Here's the link to the chart.
http://www.astro.com/cgi/chart.cgi?wgid=wgeJxdjs0KwjAQhJ9GUBghfwU17KEXxUNPIp5TG2ywSUubEvr2JleZ0-x8uzvJfR0J_fFkuA4dNeM4WzTu3Rs77ATb83OlDvAQEgrFgIuLqtBXCZ91AcN1cCFmtLnj-ahxkklxKBkYw5rjLG26Nhhv6f9u2SoPC9CZaEnIPKqn2RWmILqN25QL-tiTiUn3y0ZHrueF-Ov2AxZINvw
Mercury is in Aries in the 9th and rules his 11th house Jupiter - so the drive to break free of religious conditioning?
I've only seen a couple of his documentaries. I'm hoping to rent some of his others this weekend and then look at his chart in more detail. Full disclosure: I'm not a huge MM fan. I agree with his perspective, but I'm not always a big fan of his means. But I have to respect his effort AND his success. I'm looking forward to a thorough discussion of the 3rd stage individuated with MM as the focus and am grateful to Adina for having brought him forward for this discussion.
I am curious about his having dropped out of college. Seems as though he needed his energy more for the breaking free. What's especially curious to me, though, is he's 3rd stage individuated. Isn't this the stage where one starts to realize that there are socially sanctioned ways of going about things, and so you go ahead and do them even though you know it's just a formality....? Would skipped steps explain his rejection of traditional means?
Ellen
QuoteI am curious about his having dropped out of college. Seems as though he needed his energy more for the breaking free. What's especially curious to me, though, is he's 3rd stage individuated. Isn't this the stage where one starts to realize that there are socially sanctioned ways of going about things, and so you go ahead and do them even though you know it's just a formality....? Would skipped steps explain his rejection of traditional means?
Hi Ellen
The more individuated one becomes the more one rejects socially sanctioned ways of everything. This continues growing throughout the spiritual stages. The reason is that nearly all socially sanctioned ways of doing things are based on the values of consensus, which represents 70% of everything.
I believe you have slightly misinterpreted the words about "you go ahead and do them even though you know it's just a formality". WHY would an individuating person do that? Because you are supposed to? That is exactly what such a person is rejecting, having their reality defined by anything or anyone external.
The only time such a person would "go ahead and do them even though you know it's just a formality" is when that formality is required for something relevant to their intended life purpose and direction. An example has been given of becoming a licensed psychologist so they could later do it in their own way, yet have the credentials to be considered reputable by society. That example applies to 3rd stage indiv only when that credential is relevant to their intended path. For example, what if the person was intended to be an astrologer or shaman, and already had all sorts of inner knowledge. Does anyone really care if their astrologer or shaman has a college degree? Sometimes that so-called education is exactly what such a person must toss off before they become really effective with what they are intended to do.
What exactly would a degree have added to what Michael Moore has already done? To me, the basis of his message has always been heart felt, always standing up for the little people, the forgotten ones. He grew up modestly and obviously early on made a commitment to not forget who and where he came from. (From an EA perspective, we can speculate on what type of lives preceded the present one, that would have him be born with that inclination).
Given the nature of the messages he continually delivers, no amount of societally approved accreditation would cause his messages to be accepted by the mainstream, not even if he had a PhD issued by Steven Spielberg. He clearly did not need to go to film school because he is obviously an accomplished film maker with none of that academic training.
I am making this point somewhat strongly because if you follow it back to its root you will grasp a clearer perspective on the psychology of the individuated stage, especially third stage. They really don't care what anyone else is doing, or what one is "supposed to do". That is the whole point of 3rd stage indiv. They will only do what is necessary for them to most effectively carry forth the mission or purpose. If that includes getting a degree, they will do so. Jeffrey said if it requires them to wear a tie and jacket they will do so, but they will see it as a costume, not as some definition of who they are or what they accept about societal "supposed to's".
Steve
Evolution in human form translates into the relative consciousness of that soul while incarnating. Or, the state of evolution is defined by how much your 'seat' of consciousness is the soul or ego.
The senses can be or are used very differently by those who can use their soul consciousness via ego & body. I remember (don't have VHS anymore & no transcript!) J.Wolf, responding to a question that there were 'X' many veils, in the room. (working on memory here) He can 'see' them.
I am currently reading the interviews with Fools Crow - he is talking about using senses differently and talks about all the senses but here is a quote I like especially:
Thomas Mails asks Fools Crow: "Why do you decide with your heart and not with your mind?"
"If I decide with my mind I am influenced by all kinds of thoughts that fight against one another. If I try to decide with my eyes, even though I see with love, it is hard to not be influenced by what I actually see - how people look, react, and what they are doing. If I decide with my heart, my judgments are never harsh. My heart takes into account the things that have hurt people - what they have had to deal with just to stay sane and alive. I guess this can be applied to most of the people in the world. My heart thinks about fairness, comfort and hope. It is like Wakan-Tanka's heart, which accepts us as bones to work in and through even though none of us derserves this great honor."
That last idea of his made me think of Taurus - and values - our only true value is that we were created by Wakan-Tanka and we do not own that value.
Hi Steve,
Thanks so much for your reply - for the clarification and guidance. Thanks so much also to Deva and all of you who have created The School of Evolutionary Astrology and this Message Board. What an extraordinary thing to voice one's questions/understandings and to receive back what is really meant. Thank you.
Peace,
Ellen
Quote from: Lucius on Mar 25, 2010, 05:16 PM
Thomas Mails asks Fools Crow: "Why do you decide with your heart and not with your mind?"
"If I decide with my mind I am influenced by all kinds of thoughts that fight against one another. If I try to decide with my eyes, even though I see with love, it is hard to not be influenced by what I actually see - how people look, react, and what they are doing. If I decide with my heart, my judgments are never harsh. My heart takes into account the things that have hurt people - what they have had to deal with just to stay sane and alive. I guess this can be applied to most of the people in the world. My heart thinks about fairness, comfort and hope. It is like Wakan-Tanka's heart, which accepts us as bones to work in and through even though none of us derserves this great honor."
That last idea of his made me think of Taurus - and values - our only true value is that we were created by Wakan-Tanka and we do not own that value.
Lucius,
Thanks so much for sharing this beautiful quote and your insight re: Taurus. I hope I can get there someday - in truth/fact not in hope or belief or desire.
Peace,
Ellen
Quote from: Steve on Mar 10, 2010, 09:47 AM
I've had experiences with 1st stage indiv where someone who appears "normal", in my presence starts discussing beliefs that are well outside the range of consensus beliefs. That I've found is a tipoff. Another is, an astrologer is unlikely to see many consensus people thus in most cases (not all, however) whoever is in front of you is at least 1st stage indiv.
I've also become aware of an effect called Pisces/Neptune/12th house Hiding, where those archetypes tend to mask who they really are. At its extremes this can create a 1st stage spiritual person you could even confuse with consensus, so again it comes back to inner listening a lot more than what you are seeing on the outside. There are reasons for that hiding, also, which can be seen in the chart, and those reasons often need to be brought out during the reading as they can be an important part of the evolutionary signature.
Another tricky assessment is the cusp of two stages. I see many people transitioning from 3rd stage indiv to 1st stage spiritual for example. They will exhibit characteristics of both while seeming to fit neatly into neither. The transition is why. A soul engaged in a transition like that is going to be facing a unique range of archetypes and feelings (culminations and new beginnings), and their chart needs to be interpreted in relation to that inner reality they are experiencing.
Steve
Hello All,
I pop in and out of this forum, mostly out studying creative writing and finishing the semester's culminating writings.
Steve's quote above is very helpful for me. With the last part of the quote addressing the very question I ask myself frequently. Why the back and forth?
It sounds like it is possible for someone in the 1st stage individuated or 1st stage spiritual to carry a sense of wanting to fit into mainstream structures, say a strong Capricornian role within a spiritual context (Saturn in the 10th in Pisces for instance) (Obama possibly), while at different timings through life has also deeply explored the Piscean realms (1st stage spiritual) and at different times in hiding--Neptune/Pisces/12th house hiding.
I am trying to clarify, as this aspect of EA is still something I am learning to incorporate which I would like to do more (self and clients).
Thanks,
Wendy
hi Wendy
QuoteIt sounds like it is possible for someone in the 1st stage individuated or 1st stage spiritual to carry a sense of wanting to fit into mainstream structures, say a strong Capricornian role within a spiritual context (Saturn in the 10th in Pisces for instance) (Obama possibly), while at different timings through life has also deeply explored the Piscean realms (1st stage spiritual) and at different times in hiding--Neptune/Pisces/12th house hiding.
You are not going to find someone in 1st stage spiritual having any sense of wanting to fit into mainstream structures. You
will find that in 1st stage individuated.
In terms of what you said about Obama, I wrote a reply to Ellen a day or two ago on this same thread that discussed 3rd stage individuated. Everything I said there would apply to Obama (although its been suggested he is probably 1st stage spiritual). He does not want to fit into mainstream structures. He has a life purpose/role that requires him to play a role within the mainstream. In reality, within himself, he is far from part of the mainstream. What i said about the person required to wear the jacket and tie applies very much to Obama. The life role he is intended to play required a lifetime of preparation that necessitated from the outside a life and lifestyle that could look like it was mainstream, but that was never the actual reality. That was him consciously playing a role. He functioned IN that mainstream society, but he was never truly OF that mainstream society.
By the time someone is in 1st stage spiritual, it is no longer about what they want to do. They realize they are a small player in a vast cosmic drama - it is their dharma to fulfill some role, like it or not. They can resist - Pluto. But if they have a significant role intended, their resistance will prove futile because life itself will carry them along to where they have to start cooperating. All attempts to avoid by doing something else will not work out.
1st stage individuated is quite different. There, significant parts of the personality may indeed want to be only a consensus person, because that is perceived as much safer. However, within self the person knows they are not a consensus person. This can lead to what is called the "living a lie" syndrome, where they are pretending even to self they are not who they are.
As far as Piscean hiding, in the 1st stage spiritual the person will KNOW they are different. They will not be pretending that they are consensus. They will just be keeping their mouth shut so few can see who they really are, to stay out of perceived possible trouble from revealing their actual nature.
Hope this is helpful. It is very important to grasp these evolutionary stages as archetypes, not just as manifests of possible behaviors. Thus it is worth asking many questions, and repeating the same information as many times as necessary, until it is grasped deeply.
Steve
Thanks Steve. Your response was really helpful and encouraging. I have a couple of other questions too.
Quote from: Steve on Mar 26, 2010, 06:54 PM
In terms of what you said about Obama, I wrote a reply to Ellen a day or two ago on this same thread that discussed 3rd stage individuated. Everything I said there would apply to Obama (although its been suggested he is probably 1st stage spiritual). He does not want to fit into mainstream structures. He has a life purpose/role that requires him to play a role within the mainstream. In reality, within himself, he is far from part of the mainstream. What i said about the person required to wear the jacket and tie applies very much to Obama. The life role he is intended to play required a lifetime of preparation that necessitated from the outside a life and lifestyle that could look like it was mainstream, but that was never the actual reality. That was him consciously playing a role. He functioned IN that mainstream society, but he was never truly OF that mainstream society.
It amazes me someone, like Obama, can function in that role and not be of it. I would have not tolerance for it.
By the time someone is in 1st stage spiritual, it is no longer about what they want to do. They realize they are a small player in a vast cosmic drama - it is their dharma to fulfill some role, like it or not. They can resist - Pluto. But if they have a significant role intended, their resistance will prove futile because life itself will carry them along to where they have to start cooperating. All attempts to avoid by doing something else will not work out.
What if the specific role is not as "big" as being the President...the soul feels its impulse to share insights, information with the world and let's say the person has been radical most of their life, taking a completely different track than most of their peers, learning to become its own inner authority and there was resistance (which I thought was Saturn--haha, that's my skipped step) and trauma (Uranus) which was part of the soul awakening to itself, and then after much dedication with trial and error the soul comes closer than ever to stepping into the next evolutionary stage (surrender deeper than before even though back and forth has been a theme) and Y appears in the road (others playing a role in fortifying the resistance), and person chooses the path of resistance and all that has been worked towards, at least outwardly is lost? What stage is this person in?
3rd Stage Individuated is? one who is independent of the need for validation from the societal structures?
You may have already answered this question, it's just alot to read through and conceptualize.
Hi Wendy
QuoteIt amazes me someone, like Obama, can function in that role and not be of it. I would have not tolerance for it.
That's because that is not your life purpose. If it was, your relationship to that requirement would be different.
It has been stated before that Soul in a former life was Lincoln. Lincoln's life was terminated before his mission was complete. Thus the Soul had to return in the same role to complete the required functions. Who knows whether Obama is aware he was Lincoln. Aware or not, Lincoln has been Obama's role model, since he began. When there is a Soul necessity to do something, the person just does it. (Or, they resist doing it). Soul urges are very powerful, and they take a huge amount of effort to completely resist.
QuoteWhat if the specific role is not as "big" as being the President...the soul feels its impulse to share insights, information with the world and let's say the person has been radical most of their life, taking a completely different track than most of their peers, learning to become its own inner authority and there was resistance (which I thought was Saturn--haha, that's my skipped step) and trauma (Uranus) which was part of the soul awakening to itself, and then after much dedication with trial and error the soul comes closer than ever to stepping into the next evolutionary stage (surrender deeper than before even though back and forth has been a theme) and Y appears in the road (others playing a role in fortifying the resistance), and person chooses the path of resistance and all that has been worked towards, at least outwardly is lost? What stage is this person in?
Resistance can occur in all stages. If the person does not fulfill the Soul intentions, that is where the reincarnation principle comes in. They come back, still having to do some form of the same lesson. This is where indications like skipped steps (planets squaring the nodes), retrogrades, Pluto conjunct south node, etc. originate from. They are symbols of past resistance. (Pluto itself is a symbol of resistance, so charts with none of those also contain resistance. Almost every Soul has tendencies to resist). In terms of evolutionary stage, they are not going to regress from resisting. They just are not going to advance much until they accept their intended life path. To step out of the box, to face their fears, to begin doing what they are intended to do, step by step, even though they may not feel ready to do so. Listening to their inner direction.
These things are not easy to do. They take courage and determination.
Quote3rd Stage Individuated is? one who is independent of the need for validation from the societal structures?
See my reply about 3rd stage individuated, the first post on page 6 of this topic - the top of the page this is appearing on.
Steve
QUOTE FROM STEVE -"As far as Piscean hiding, in the 1st stage spiritual the person will KNOW they are different. They will not be pretending that they are consensus. They will just be keeping their mouth shut so few can see who they really are, to stay out of perceived possible trouble from revealing their actual nature."
Wow Steve, you just nailed something very key here for me! Thank you!
Some specific questions (Q1-4) have arose after pondering that, which I hope you could answer...
--(Q1)Would this "Piscean Hiding/Neptune Masking" you've observed be even more exaggerated if Pisces were ruling the first house and then add Pisces INTERCEPTED on top of that, in house 1 (as in my chart, for example)?
(Q2)And then add Saturn and Chiron Rx to that 1st house Pisces(as in my chart also)? I would imagine so(it being more exaggerated), given the fear Saturn may generate and the woundedness of Chiron. So I would appreciate any confirmation of this from your EA perspective. And I do notice this very strong in myself, especially now that you have put the actual words to it.
And as I ponder all that, the next questions arise...
--(Q3)How might the "Pisces/Neptune/12th Masking/Hiding" you've observed play out in 2nd stage spiritual?...
--(Q4)And would the Neptune masking not even be a factor in stage 3 spiritual?
Thanks for your time Steve.
Very appreciated,
Dhyana
PS. Should this inquiry be on a new thread bc it is also moving into this topic of Piscean Hiding/12th House/Neptune, or is it ok to stay here under this thread bc it is still regarding evolutionary stages? Let me know bc I am still trying to learn my way around this forum and utilize it properly. I will move it over and start a new topic thread if needed.
Hi Steve,
I totally understand the reincarnation piece in terms of resisting evolution, my question is directed more towards an individual who has been dedicated to their evolution most of their life, conscious life, and then at a critical juncture made choices which did not support that evolution, such as simple distraction rather than murder or something that extreme.
If the person is aware of the resistance that arose then and is doing everything they can to continue their evolutionary state, is it possible to still accomplish their "evolutionary task"?
I think the answer is yes, the process of achieving it just becomes delayed, unless they died before accomplishing their souls calling.
Hi Wendy
Quote from: Wendy on Mar 27, 2010, 07:20 AM
I totally understand the reincarnation piece in terms of resisting evolution, my question is directed more towards an individual who has been dedicated to their evolution most of their life, conscious life, and then at a critical juncture made choices which did not support that evolution, such as simple distraction rather than murder or something that extreme.
If the person is aware of the resistance that arose then and is doing everything they can to continue their evolutionary state, is it possible to still accomplish their "evolutionary task"?
I think the answer is yes, the process of achieving it just becomes delayed, unless they died before accomplishing their souls calling.
I'd say they can still accomplish their evolutionary task. Most of the time, when other choices are made at critical junctures, it's from an unconscious pull from the past, unseen fears based on past events that resulted in traumas, that cause the distractions away. Or unconscious unfulfilled desires of a separating nature that arise and create distractions.
Things like this are an inherent part of life in the human condition. That is WHY it takes so long.
It's important to consider what has been sometimes called the center of gravity within the Soul. How is the consciousness of that Soul defined? Is that Soul refined to the point that its unconscious instinctual thought/behavior patterns tend to accepting its evolutionary destiny, or does resistance still dominate?
We also need to remember there's no such thing as perfection here on earth. When we look at the lives of people we consider spiritual great ones - do you think when they died they felt they had fulfilled every last thing that had been possible and intended? I seriously doubt it.
All any of us can do is the best we can do. We learn to keep moving forward one step at a time. Sometimes, two steps forward, one step back - the net motion is still forward. As has been stated, the value, truly, is in the effort. It is from consistent effort that the center of gravity within the Soul gradually shifts - the tendency to move forward comes to predominate, and that gradually changes the way the person responds to the challenges and pulls in their life.
Hi Dhyana
Quote--(Q1)Would this "Piscean Hiding/Neptune Masking" you've observed be even more exaggerated if Pisces were ruling the first house and then add Pisces INTERCEPTED on top of that, in house 1 (as in my chart, for example)?
(Q2)And then add Saturn and Chiron Rx to that 1st house Pisces(as in my chart also)? I would imagine so(it being more exaggerated), given the fear Saturn may generate and the woundedness of Chiron. So I would appreciate any confirmation of this from your EA perspective. And I do notice this very strong in myself, especially now that you have put the actual words to it.
And as I ponder all that, the next questions arise...
--(Q3)How might the "Pisces/Neptune/12th Masking/Hiding" you've observed play out in 2nd stage spiritual?...
--(Q4)And would the Neptune masking not even be a factor in stage 3 spiritual?
Questions one and two can't be answered from the info you gave. You have to look at the entire evolutionary signature (Pluto, south node, ruler, aspects being made) and sense how that signature might have played out in the past and present lives. There is no generic answer to the question. Its unique for each Soul. In many but not all cases you'd likely find what you said about exaggerated to be true.
That you are noticing it strongly in yourself speaks for itself. What confirmation do you need beyond your own inner knowing of its truth?
My answers to questions three and four are speculations.
I haven't observed enough 2nd stage spiritual people to make generalizations. Archetypally, 2nd stage spiritual is spiritually full of itself. It feels it is fully God realized. So rather than hiding this away, it would likely be broadcasting this all over the place.
3rd stage spiritual is not hiding away its awareness of spiritual reality. At that stage that essence/reality is that Soul's core sense of identity.
Quote from: Steve on Mar 27, 2010, 09:18 AM
Hi Dhyana
Quote--(Q1)Would this "Piscean Hiding/Neptune Masking" you've observed be even more exaggerated if Pisces were ruling the first house and then add Pisces INTERCEPTED on top of that, in house 1 (as in my chart, for example)?
(Q2)And then add Saturn and Chiron Rx to that 1st house Pisces(as in my chart also)? I would imagine so(it being more exaggerated), given the fear Saturn may generate and the woundedness of Chiron. So I would appreciate any confirmation of this from your EA perspective. And I do notice this very strong in myself, especially now that you have put the actual words to it.
And as I ponder all that, the next questions arise...
--(Q3)How might the "Pisces/Neptune/12th Masking/Hiding" you've observed play out in 2nd stage spiritual?...
--(Q4)And would the Neptune masking not even be a factor in stage 3 spiritual?
Questions one and two can't be answered from the info you gave. You have to look at the entire evolutionary signature (Pluto, south node, ruler, aspects being made) and sense how that signature might have played out in the past and present lives. There is no generic answer to the question. Its unique for each Soul. In many but not all cases you'd likely find what you said about exaggerated to be true.
That you are noticing it strongly in yourself speaks for itself. What confirmation do you need beyond your own inner knowing of its truth?
My answers to questions three and four are speculations.
I haven't observed enough 2nd stage spiritual people to make generalizations. Archetypally, 2nd stage spiritual is spiritually full of itself. It feels it is fully God realized. So rather than hiding this away, it would likely be broadcasting this all over the place.
3rd stage spiritual is not hiding away its awareness of spiritual reality. At that stage that essence/reality is that Soul's core sense of identity.
Hello Steve, And thanks for your answer thus far.
You say "What confirmation do you need beyond your own inner knowing of its truth?" -Well, I suppose I should have worded my question differently bc perhaps "confirmation" is not the right word. You see, It is not the inner confirmation I am looking for here, I am looking for to learn ASTROLOGY through the EA perspective and so I am asking questions to that end -- When I ask a question on here I am looking for an explanation in ASTROLOGICAL terms from an EA lens and EA LANGUAGE. That is why I wrote that as I did " I would appreciate any confirmation of this from your
EA perspective". I am looking to learn more about planets/houses/aspects etc through the lens of EA and it's lanquage and bc I am most familar with my chart and myself, I find it useful to ask in regards to it.
Thanks,
Dhayna
Hi Again Steve,
PS. I also wanted to add here that what I am also doing in posting questions like the one above, is that I am trying to see, or get" confirmation" of my understanding of planet archetypes etc. It is in that context I would use the word "confirmation". You see, I want to make sure my basic understanding of planets,houses,placemets,aspects,stages and archetypes are correct and in line with EA. That is why I metioned the planets and houses in my questions. ---simply trying to learn and hone in on the EA technicalities in astrology-
Thanks Again,
Dhyana
One last thing Steve,
YOU WROTE "Questions one and two can't be answered from the info you gave."
What more information can I give you so that the question can be answered? (in the context I just mentioned above)? BC that us what I am here for.
Thanks Again for ur time
Dhyana
QuoteAs far as Piscean hiding, in the 1st stage spiritual the person will KNOW they are different. They will not be pretending that they are consensus. They will just be keeping their mouth shut so few can see who they really are, to stay out of perceived possible trouble from revealing their actual nature.
Hi all, I've been following this thread with great interest and have a question about this part Steve. Is the virgo archetype combined here with pisces. How do the archetypes layer in the substages?... i.e. in this 1st stage spiritual case then the soul glimpses its true nature and cosmic identity and possibility(neptune) and begins the work of sorting the the chaff from the grain (virgo)in its soul?
Thank you, Heather
Heather,
I hope you don't mind me popping in here to offer an answer. :) This is a very good relevant question, and the brief answer is yes, Virgo is very much at play here in the first stage spiritual. Each of the archetypes contains its polarity withIN in, so in relation to that, the Virgo archeytpe would definitely be active in the 1st stage spiritual, overall ruled by Neptune. In addition, as JWG taught, the 1st stage spiritual person feels very small--like the proverbial grain of sand on the beach--in relation to its understanding of God. And since it feels so small, it feels inadequate to the task(s) to which it's called - again, the Virgo archetype. As one proceeds through that stage the Virgo (I'm not good enough, I'm not ready enough) consciousness gradually moves into the "I can't do it, but God can do it THRU me" stage, where it "cooperates" with the godhead within, and finally to the last part of the stage. It's at the last part of the 1st stage spiritual where the soul has typically now experienced the 1st level of samadhi, and therefore, has experienced SOME of the "truth".... but under current patriarchal conditioning, it can think it knows more than it does, thus catapulting it over into 2nd stage spiritual, which I think is co-ruled by Leo - being full of itself because it knows PART of the truth.
I'm not sure it's a separating of the chaff from the grain, unless you mean a shedding of skins of sort, as in thinking that it's separate from God/Source, or as the beginning of a conscious effort to begin eliminating separaring desires (Maybe that's what you were getting at?) in earnest. It's being AWARE of who and what we are and beginning to act on that accordingly, if that makes sense.
To me, there's a "learning curve" in relation to keeping one's mouth shut as Steve pointed out. And by learning curve, I mean that the soul at this level -- because it IS finally realizing SOME of the "truth" -- and the love and beauty OF that truth, wants to share it with others, but must learn to "discriminate" (Virgo) when that's appropriate and when not, as well as in what form. From my observations, many in 1st stage spiritual have prior lifetimes where they got into all kinds of trouble - including tortured - because they spoke the truth. (Although this could/would be true of anyone in the spiritual state).... but at this point, the soul is just learning when and with whom to share information. Hope this helps. I'm sure Steve will be along to add to this.
Quote from: Steve on Mar 24, 2010, 04:53 PM
Quote
I am making this point somewhat strongly because if you follow it back to its root you will grasp a clearer perspective on the psychology of the individuated stage, especially third stage. They really don't care what anyone else is doing, or what one is "supposed to do". That is the whole point of 3rd stage indiv. They will only do what is necessary for them to most effectively carry forth the mission or purpose. If that includes getting a degree, they will do so. Jeffrey said if it requires them to wear a tie and jacket they will do so, but they will see it as a costume, not as some definition of who they are or what they accept about societal "supposed to's".
Steve
Hi Steve,
I think I am finally beginning to grasp the nature of some of my own confusion with regard to this topic. It seems to have to do with a failure to grasp the inherent difference between 3rd stage individuated and 1st stage spiritual. It is my understanding that 1st stage spiritual feels small and that this feeling of smallness is, if I have understood Adina correctly, because the person in this stage is beginning to understand itself in relation to God. And with this new awareness, the Soul feels utterly small - like a grain of sand. Is it correct to say that 3rd stage individuated does NOT feel any of this smallness? And then is the reason it does not feel this smallness because the Soul in this stage has not yet understood itself - grasped the magnitude of - its relation to the Divine? So then can you say that there is a shift between 3rd individuated and 1st spiritual - the former not caring what anyone else (ie, its reference point is the rest of humanity) thinks of what it is doing while the latter shifts into beginning to care what GOD thinks of what it is doing (ie, its reference point is God, not people)?
This question arises in part out of the statement that 1st spiritual, like 3rd individuated, knows it is different and isn't interested in conforming. Yet 1st spiritual feels small while 3rd individuated does not necessarily feel this way. I am also thinking about this from the perspective of skipped steps and hiding - the 1st spiritual that hides in consensus reality, not having a clue who s/he is and not understanding why no one is seeing him/her - the naivete of the child - assuming s/he will be loved for who s/he is.
I hope this makes sense. It still feels pretty murky to me but I wanted to begin to try to voice the question/confusion. I appreciate any answer you can give.
Peace,
Ellen
Hi there, I have some questions about the spiritual state:
1. Steve's remarks about neptunian "hiding" - can this manifest at any evolutionary level or is it exclusive to 1st spiritual?
2. Steve and Adina's comments about 1st spiritual keeping its mouth shut - is this some sort of necessity? or a growth process? (I am not quite sure how to express this question, hope I made myself clear).
3. finally, if the the 1st spiritual is learning that life isn't about what they want, but instead what they are here to do -- it is possible to see in the chart just what it is that there are here to do, large or small? it seems to me that "resistance" behaviour could be caused at least in part by simply not knowing what this task/process is (what it is there are here to do, etc.).
thanks for any insight, it is much appreciated.
Thanks so much Steve. Your response really helped me understand more fully.
Blessings,
Wendy
Hi Dhyana
Quote from: Dhyana on Mar 27, 2010, 10:07 AM
YOU WROTE "Questions one and two can't be answered from the info you gave."
What more information can I give you so that the question can be answered? (in the context I just mentioned above)? BC that us what I am here for.
I did answer this in my original answer
QuoteQuestions one and two can't be answered from the info you gave. You have to look at the entire evolutionary signature (Pluto, south node, ruler, aspects being made) and sense how that signature might have played out in the past and present lives.
Since in your case the 1st house Saturn/Chiron are conjunct in Pisces, opposing the Mars/Uranus/Pluto conjunction, squaring Venus in 10th, sesquiquad Moon/Jupiter, I'd say the answer about hiding being exaggerated is yes. The past woundings/traumas as a result of who you are and what you know have been so intense, at your core, that you have not wanted to be seen. This became adopted as a, 1st house, instinctual survival strategy. Becoming aware of the tendency is a step towards changing the pattern.
Heather and Adina - I think Adina answered your questions, Heather, very well. I don't have anything to add to what Adina said, at this point.
Steve
hi bluesky
I will share my thoughts on your questions, which are very good. These are my thoughts, not necessarily authoritative EA answers.
Quote from: bluesky on Mar 27, 2010, 12:49 PM
1. Steve's remarks about neptunian "hiding" - can this manifest at any evolutionary level or is it exclusive to 1st spiritual?
Since the hiding is going to be about not revealing the person's awareness of spiritual realities that are well out of consensus norm, I'd say the hiding would be at its peak in 1st stage spiritual. That is where the personal awareness of those realities is being deeply integrated and applied within the Soul. As Adina said earlier, in that stage that Soul is feeling very small and humble, and has already experienced getting in trouble for revealing its actual reality. This creating a tendency to not want to show what it knows, to stay out of trouble.
The hiding could start appearing in 3rd stage individuated as the Soul is becoming increasingly aware of the existence of other spiritual realities, prior to its beginning to adopt them as the center of its way of life.
Second stage spiritual is not going to be hiding its awareness of spiritual reality, it is going to broadcast it all over the place. Third stage spiritual has BECOME that spiritual reality, thus its not hiding it either. Prior to 3rd stage individuated the awareness of spiritual realities has not yet begun developing, thus its not going to be hidden there either, since it doesn't yet exist. The hiding associated with 1st stage indiv is not Neptunian hiding, more like Saturnian hiding, trying to pretend its part of consensus.
Quote2. Steve and Adina's comments about 1st spiritual keeping its mouth shut - is this some sort of necessity? or a growth process? (I am not quite sure how to express this question, hope I made myself clear).
Well, actually what I said about 1st stage spiritual keeping its mouth shut was about the 12th house/Pisces/Neptune hiding phenomenon, which I addressed in your 1st question.
Adina discussed something else altogether, a tendency to want to share the truth the Soul has discovered with others, which can be done somewhat indiscriminately, which can create repercussions. She was describing the role of Virgo, the Pisces polarity, in that process, to learn to discriminate, when to speak about it and when to remain silent.
As far as keeping the mouth shut as necessity or a growth process, if the issue is indiscriminate talking, there is going to be a necessity to learn discrimination. In the example of Neptunian hiding, its really the opposite. The person will tend to remain silent when they should be speaking and showing up. Thus its going to be a growth process to learn to speak and not hide away.
Quote3. finally, if the the 1st spiritual is learning that life isn't about what they want, but instead what they are here to do -- it is possible to see in the chart just what it is that there are here to do, large or small? it seems to me that "resistance" behaviour could be caused at least in part by simply not knowing what this task/process is (what it is there are here to do, etc.).
To me that is the whole point of the EA methodology - to interpret the evolutionary signature (Pluto, nodes, rulers, aspects they all make) to determine the life lessons that person is here to work on, to see the evolutionary directions the life is intended to move in. The overall signature reveals the types of life lessons intended, the nodes and rulers show more specific ways those life lessons are intended to be applied, including the types of expressions (including vocations) that facilitate the life lessons unfolding.
Certainly not knowing what they are supposed to be doing could play a large part in resistance behavior. Another example of the power of EA to reveal and objectify the Soul's intentions.
Hope these answers help.
Steve
Hi Ellen
Quote
I think I am finally beginning to grasp the nature of some of my own confusion with regard to this topic. It seems to have to do with a failure to grasp the inherent difference between 3rd stage individuated and 1st stage spiritual. It is my understanding that 1st stage spiritual feels small and that this feeling of smallness is, if I have understood Adina correctly, because the person in this stage is beginning to understand itself in relation to God. And with this new awareness, the Soul feels utterly small - like a grain of sand. Is it correct to say that 3rd stage individuated does NOT feel any of this smallness? And then is the reason it does not feel this smallness because the Soul in this stage has not yet understood itself - grasped the magnitude of - its relation to the Divine?
In some cases 3rd stage indiv can be a bit pumped up, ego wise, aware of its capacity for genius, forward thinking, etc. The issue there would be that person confusing who and what is the source of their abilities - as if they came straight from their personal brilliance, rather than they are tapping into some universal source.
By the time 1st stage spiritual is established, there is awareness the Soul is not the source of its own abilities, thus the sense of smallness.
Einstein was identified as 3rd stage indiv. One of his quotes is "I want to hear God's thoughts. All the rest is details". You would think from that he was in the spiritual state. The difference would be how deeply he had integrated the thoughts he heard into his total sense of self, the shift in the center of gravity from the world and the self, to that sense of the smallness of the individual we associate with 1st stage spiritual.
QuoteSo then can you say that there is a shift between 3rd individuated and 1st spiritual - the former not caring what anyone else (ie, its reference point is the rest of humanity) thinks of what it is doing while the latter shifts into beginning to care what GOD thinks of what it is doing (ie, its reference point is God, not people)?
Well, I would say the sense of not caring what anyone else thinks of it exists throughout the spiritual state, in all 3 stages.
I wouldn't phrase it as "beginning to care what GOD thinks of what it is doing", because I don't think that is really the way that God/Goddess look at us. They are not sitting there smiling or frowning at Souls based on a Soul's behaviors. It is much more a matter of becoming aware of the natural intentions for all Souls and that specific Soul, and gradually aligning one's personal will with those intentions. The reference point becomes more of knowing what one is intended to be doing, and committing to doing it.
QuoteThis question arises in part out of the statement that 1st spiritual, like 3rd individuated, knows it is different and isn't interested in conforming. Yet 1st spiritual feels small while 3rd individuated does not necessarily feel this way. I am also thinking about this from the perspective of skipped steps and hiding - the 1st spiritual that hides in consensus reality, not having a clue who s/he is and not understanding why no one is seeing him/her - the naivete of the child - assuming s/he will be loved for who s/he is.
I'm not clear why you feel that feeling small makes a difference in terms of not interested in conforming. Its simply wanting to live from its natural nature, to drop conditioned programmings it has picked up that pull it away from its natural nature.
You are not going to find 1st stage spiritual hiding in consensus reality. 1st stage spiritual is incapable of hiding in consensus reality. It may not always LIKE that it is incapable of doing that hiding, none the less it can't. It will also not feel it has no clue who it is - they do know who they are, that is the problem. They may not understand how different from everyone else they are - that would relate to the feeling of not being seen. They are typically going to have many experiences from early childhood on showing them they are NOT going to be loved for who they are. That in fact almost no one will have any idea who they are. Those experiences, while not fun, are designed by the Soul to throw that person back on them self, to be forced to explore their inner reality more deeply.
Steve
This is an excellent thread, helping me grow leaps and bounds while finally learning about these EA stages.
Thank you.
Hi Adina, I'm grateful you've responded. And thanks Steve and all for your continuation of this thread.
Quote'm not sure it's a separating of the chaff from the grain, unless you mean a shedding of skins of sort, as in thinking that it's separate from God/Source, or as the beginning of a conscious effort to begin eliminating separaring desires (Maybe that's what you were getting at?) in earnest. It's being AWARE of who and what we are and beginning to act on that accordingly, if that makes sense.
What this metaphor means to me is that the soul is as you said "earnestly" looking to sort through what will nourish its return to God (grain) rather than just the shell of what looks like it will nourish it (chaff) from the outside. It may apply here, I don't know. It seems to me the first stage is rather fraught with things like... is this or isn't this the way home ... what will nourish me now that I need real (spiritual) food... and how do I relate to the rest of the world or do something useful with this knowing...
Also I wonder about this eliminating separating desires. I've never quite gotten this. I thought the desire to separate was a natural state of the soul, to grow and evolve, in order to enrich creation, to be creation.
Why do I want to eliminate my urge to grow? I know I've not got this concept yet. Any help on this would be welcome, this feels important at this first stage spiritual.
QuoteFrom my observations, many in 1st stage spiritual have prior lifetimes where they got into all kinds of trouble - including tortured - because they spoke the truth. (Although this could/would be true of anyone in the spiritual state).... but at this point, the soul is just learning when and with whom to share information. Hope this helps. I'm sure Steve will be along to add to this.
What function does the persecution and torture serve to the soul that is spiritualizing and returning to God?
In bud and gratitude, Heather
Steve,
thanks for posting answers to my questions - I really appreciate the knowledge you and your fellow EA administrators share with us on this board.
Hi Steve,
Thanks for your answers. I'll get this eventually....
Ellen
Hi All,
This post is by bluesky from the "opposition" thread. I thought I'd post it here since it deals with the stages. Anyone have any responses? It is intriguing to me.
Ellen
Dhyana and Wendy,
my chart is loaded with oppositions - visually, it is a see-saw pattern with a t-square to nepture. I often finding myself instinctively checking my own behaviour (is this person simply mirroring me?), imaging myself in someone else's shoes, etc. Very polarity!
Anyway, I have been contemplating the opposition along the following lines (with respect to evolutionary states):
consensus (may) = projection
individuated (may) = throwing off
spiritual (may) = integration of the polarities.
I realize this may be a simplistic view of the opposition aspect. I also realize that the chart needs to be considered as a whole, but that whole breaks down to parts...
Anyone who's got any ideas, insight - please feel free to jump in.
Hi again, Heather. I too am grateful for this thread; it's really a terrific learning and sharing experience for all. I've inserted my thoughts into your text.... I hope! LOL
Quote from: mountainheather on Mar 27, 2010, 10:39 PM
Hi Adina, I'm grateful you've responded. And thanks Steve and all for your continuation of this thread.
Quote'm not sure it's a separating of the chaff from the grain, unless you mean a shedding of skins of sort, as in thinking that it's separate from God/Source, or as the beginning of a conscious effort to begin eliminating separaring desires (Maybe that's what you were getting at?) in earnest. It's being AWARE of who and what we are and beginning to act on that accordingly, if that makes sense.
What this metaphor means to me is that the soul is as you said "earnestly" looking to sort through what will nourish its return to God (grain) rather than just the shell of what looks like it will nourish it (chaff) from the outside. It may apply here, I don't know. It seems to me the first stage is rather fraught with things like... is this or isn't this the way home ... what will nourish me now that I need real (spiritual) food... and how do I relate to the rest of the world or do something useful with this knowing...
Ah so, Heather, thank you for your explanation. I think we ARE talking about the same thing; i.e., eliminating separating desires. It's a focus on God and anything that will move us toward knowing and returning to God'dess as opposed to that next thing that keep us occupied IN the world, to paraphrase Jesus. To me, what you're describing with the questions of is this the way home, what will nourish me, etc., is more reflective of the end of 3rd stage individuated, wherein the soul has pieced together different bits of this and that philosophy and/or belief system, creating its own system, so to speak, but realizes that's not quite it and so begins to narrow down its search to the one of several already known ways/paths to God that it feels most aligned with. This also relates to the soul types; for example a soul whose essence is devotional will naturally align with a path of devotion, etc. And yet, I think the questioning of just what IS the way home also relates to the need for a guru or "true" spiritual teacher to help us navigate both the particular AND overall path we're on. Within that, then, comes what we "do" with the information, how we serve, which is, as you know, directed by God from within.
Also I wonder about this eliminating separating desires. I've never quite gotten this. I thought the desire to separate was a natural state of the soul, to grow and evolve, in order to enrich creation, to be creation.
Heather, I don't think you're alone in thinking that the desire to separate is a natural state of the soul.. because that's what the patriarchy has taught for thousands of years now, i.e., that the soul separated ITSELF from God, when in actuality, God created and creates each soul as part of itself and yet SEPARATE from itself. (I hope that makes sense). This separation, to me, is different from the desire to grow and evolve. And this is only MY take on it "˜cause who the heck really fully knows what God intended in the first place (LOL)"¦. And that is that the desire to grow and evolve mirror God's own desire to evolve, which it does thru its creation - through expanding and contracting universes. And thus we too grow and evolve thru our creations, but what it boils down to is what those creations are and where they lead; i.e., away from or toward God/Source.
Why do I want to eliminate my urge to grow?
I don't think we do, Heather, but I don't think it's a matter of eliminating one's urge to grow, it's a matter of how and in what direction. At its simplest, the concept of separating desires reflects all those desires that are NOT the desire to return to that which created us. These, of course, are only limited by our imagination, so there are myriads of separating desires, while the desire to return is just that - one desire. According to all the world's "true religions" that IS the "goal" of life (all life ultimately, but spiritual life consciously), i.e.,TO know and return to the Source. Again, we don't really recognize that until we get to the cusp of 1st stage spiritual and beyond. And so what we chose from that point forward is whatever will propel that growth toward God/Source, because in the end, that's the ONLY thing that actually satisfies us. Or as the great one, Yogananda, put it, "Mankind is engaged in an eternal quest for that "˜something else' he hopes will bring him happiness, complete and unending. For those individual Souls who have sought and found God, the search is over. He is that something else." (Man's Eternal Quest)
I know I've not got this concept yet. Any help on this would be welcome, this feels important at this first stage spiritual.
From my observations, many in 1st stage spiritual have prior lifetimes where they got into all kinds of trouble - including tortured - because they spoke the truth. (Although this could/would be true of anyone in the spiritual state).... but at this point, the soul is just learning when and with whom to share information. Hope this helps. I'm sure Steve will be along to add to this.
What function does the persecution and torture serve to the soul that is spiritualizing and returning to God?
I'm not exactly sure what you're asking here, Heather. My observation of this happening to people in prior lifetimes is just that, an observation of what happened when speaking out in a consensus reality, not that it serves any "function."
I hope this helps a little bit. Obviously, the topic is vast, and we could discuss it for hours on end. What a fascinating discusssion that would be, eh? :)
Blessings,
Adina
In bud and gratitude, Heather
Hi All,
I just wanted to add to something Ellen asked
I think I am finally beginning to grasp the nature of some of my own confusion with regard to this topic. It seems to have to do with a failure to grasp the inherent difference between 3rd stage individuated and 1st stage spiritual. It is my understanding that 1st stage spiritual feels small and that this feeling of smallness is, if I have understood Adina correctly, because the person in this stage is beginning to understand itself in relation to God. And with this new awareness, the Soul feels utterly small - like a grain of sand. Is it correct to say that 3rd stage individuated does NOT feel any of this smallness? And then is the reason it does not feel this smallness because the Soul in this stage has not yet understood itself - grasped the magnitude of - its relation to the Divine? So then can you say that there is a shift between 3rd individuated and 1st spiritual - the former not caring what anyone else (ie, its reference point is the rest of humanity) thinks of what it is doing while the latter shifts into beginning to care what GOD thinks of what it is doing (ie, its reference point is God, not people)?
Steve answered this pretty well, but my addition is from my observation and correlation is.. I am an artist and astrologer, some of my clients are 3rd stage individuated and so were some of my teachers in art school.... The thing I have observed over the years is that 3rd stage thinks it knows the universe, they really feel that they have hit the end and know what it is.... Its a Leo archetype... 1st stage spiritual knows they don't know....Transition between 3rd individuated and 1st the humbling process has already taken place so there are inklings of feeling small... The only smallness the 3rd indvuated feels is the deep knowing that the system does not support them. But their ego blows right through that. hope that helps....
pam
hi Heather
QuoteAlso I wonder about this eliminating separating desires. I've never quite gotten this. I thought the desire to separate was a natural state of the soul, to grow and evolve, in order to enrich creation, to be creation.
Why do I want to eliminate my urge to grow? I know I've not got this concept yet. Any help on this would be welcome, this feels important at this first stage spiritual.
I think you are confusing, or misinterpreting, several things.
1) Souls are not here to enrich creation. Humans like to believe that is true but its the root thought of much pain and delusion. We are here to evolve our way back to Source, period.
2) Eliminating separating desires is not eliminating the urge to grow, it is the essence of where the urge to grow is leading, to move from falseness and delusion to truth.
All Souls are created with a dual desire nature. If the only desire within a Soul was to merge back with Source, Souls would remain in creation about 40 nanoseconds and be out of here. What would the point of separating be? For some reason we can not be aware of while encased in human form, God/Goddess want this creation thing to exist, for a long long time by our human time-relative standards. We can speculate endlessly on the Why, however the truth of that is self-evident, from the survival instinct that keeps us here, to the desire to separate and try many things.
There is the point - how many things you have ever done to enrich creation, to put it in the language you used, have ended with your realization you are now tired of what you were once excited about. It did not turn out the way you envisioned it. Even though people or the world may have been affected by what you did, the world continues on pretty much as it had been before you did anything. You started out young, you grow old, the wheel keeps spinning, people keep doing what they are still doing.
The reason separating desires get exhausted is because not one of them will ever live up to the initial thought or promise, in the end. This leads, at times, to Saturnian experiences of futility, frustration, resignation, depression, and/or to Neptunian experiences of disillusionment - "is this all there is?", "how could what started so pure become so distorted".
Slowly slowly slowly the Soul starts to realize the only lasting permanent unchanging thing, the one that can always be counted on, is reached through this inner state. That is what is called returning to Source. We are wired to resist that very experience almost with all our might. That is the basis of the dual desire nature. The only reason to exhaust a separating desire is when one realizes it does not live up to what we thought it could be, does not bring the ultimate satisfaction we thought it might. You are not intended to give up separating desires because some metaphysical system told you that was the point of life. You give them up, often with much pain and effort, to free yourself from the hold of something that simply is not bringing you the satisfaction you desired. It is no longer bringing you where you want to go. And even so it is often difficult to let go of it, to start again in some new direction.
Eventually, after eons of times, the Soul starts noticing that pretty much EVERYTHING it starts winds up like that, eventually feeling more or less the same. This throws the Soul into a spiritual crisis of sorts. What is it supposed to do? At some point it starts remembering it is actually here in human form to fulfill certain tasks, functions, learn certain lessons, that are necessary for its ongoing evolution. It has the free will to (Pluto) resist the consequences of that conclusion. But it also starts experiencing that even though fulfilling some of those things is not always fun, the inner feeling that comes from aligning itself with these intended directions and actions is far more fulfilling than the feeling that comes, long term, from doing all the things it thinks it has wanted to do, most of which eventually wind up feeling quite different than had been anticipated. And thus the Soul learns that its ultimate happiness comes from following intended will rather than its personal creative whims. Thus the Soul CHOOSES to give up separating desires, as it learns those separating desires do not bring it lasting satisfaction. And that is the ONLY reason one would choose to give up separating desires. Because they are not bringing you where you want to do.
QuoteWhat function does the persecution and torture serve to the soul that is spiritualizing and returning to God?
This is basically a function of living in a patriarchal reality. It reflects the distortions contained within that reality, where those who speak truth and try to live truth are punished for it. The bigger question is why is it necessary to have a patriarchal reality in the 1st place? And I don't know whether anyone can truly answer that question. What
is evident is we have been wounded by its existence.
Some of the lessons potentially are about courage and truthfulness. It is much easier in the outer sense to shut the mouth, to turn away from speaking and living truth. Because then your life is made easier. But then, what dies inside when these compromises are made? Is it better to remain alive knowing you are living a lie, or face the consequences and speak the truth? There is no one size fits all answer for that. Ultimately a Soul is here to complete its mission. No one can judge the choices it makes. It has to live with itself. The answers are not always clear.
Some of the consequences of traumatizing experiences like these are that Soul is again thrown back on itself, to contemplate its values, it meaning, its purpose. Why did these things happen? And again, to see the folly of devoting a life simply to pursuing separating desires as these bring no lasting satisfaction.
And yet, it can take many many lives of experiences of this nature for the Soul to finally grasp the deeper significance. We really underestimate how long this process takes, and how difficult parts of it are. There are good reasons why only a small percentage of the population is in the Spiritual state. In many ways its the last place a Soul wants to go, and many only go there when all other options have proven not to work - that is the root of the Spiritual crisis I mentioned.
Steve
Steve and Adina, thank you both.
I am determined to understand these basic principles, and your patience and generosity is appreciated. I have to read the responses over and over before they sink in, some of this is still not resonating for me, but I don't know how to make it into a question yet, more absorbing and reflecting to do. Thanks again, Heather
Quote
I wouldn't phrase it as "beginning to care what GOD thinks of what it is doing", because I don't think that is really the way that God/Goddess look at us. They are not sitting there smiling or frowning at Souls based on a Soul's behaviors. It is much more a matter of becoming aware of the natural intentions for all Souls and that specific Soul, and gradually aligning one's personal will with those intentions. The reference point becomes more of knowing what one is intended to be doing, and committing to doing it.
Hi Steve,
I wanted to try to voice my responses as a way of clarifying for myself my thinking so that I can better understand it. If you have any responses, I welcome them.
With regard to the above paragraph, I see where you're coming from and it is finally becoming clear to me that my questions are being asked from a SUBJECTIVE perspective, ie, the perspective of the 3rd ind/1st spiritual - and especially from my own subjective experiences. The 1st spiritual (as a child) who is hiding in consensus reality (and what I mean by this is the 1st spiritual who chooses consensus individuals for parents), for example, wouldn't necessarily understand - yet - how God/Goddess is looking at us... correct? Thinking of those who are hiding due to past life persecutions, this person, I think (I'm drawing here on my own experiences) would be primarily concerned with not being found out. S/he would also be subject to the traumas of a religious culture that preaches that "God" DOES look down on her and judge her negatively. As a child, she wouldn't have defenses against this point of view. This also explains to me why I'm making the connection (below) between feeling small and conforming. The 1st spiritual in hiding, I was thinking, was MAKING HERSELF SMALL so as not to bring upon her more persecution, and she was doing this instinctually, not consciously. It would only be later, at whatever point s/he could escape (physicall/emotionally) from this consensus environment that s/he might be able to re-orient her perspective away from the condemning religious perspective that s/h was steeped in as a child. So I'm thinking that while the ultimate trajectory for 1st spiritual is towards the perspective you identify, perhaps it does not always start out that way....?
QuoteThis question arises in part out of the statement that 1st spiritual, like 3rd individuated, knows it is different and isn't interested in conforming. Yet 1st spiritual feels small while 3rd individuated does not necessarily feel this way. I am also thinking about this from the perspective of skipped steps and hiding - the 1st spiritual that hides in consensus reality, not having a clue who s/he is and not understanding why no one is seeing him/her - the naivete of the child - assuming s/he will be loved for who s/he is.
I'm not clear why you feel that feeling small makes a difference in terms of not interested in conforming. Its simply wanting to live from its natural nature, to drop conditioned programmings it has picked up that pull it away from its natural nature.
You are not going to find 1st stage spiritual hiding in consensus reality. 1st stage spiritual is incapable of hiding in consensus reality. It may not always LIKE that it is incapable of doing that hiding, none the less it can't. It will also not feel it has no clue who it is - they do know who they are, that is the problem.
Here again I was asking from a subjective perspective. BECAUSE the 1st spiritual child was not seen - ie, not given a mirror back as to who s/he was, s/he would not have developed the capacity to subjectively know who s/he was in a CONSCIOUS way. Again, it would only be later, when s/he "escaped" that s/he would develop subjective awareness of who s/he is and that, looking back s/h could then say that, based on OBJECTIVE indications, s/he in fact DID always "know". Does this make sense? In my own life this has played out in slow peeling layers - 1st with regard to my sexual orientation, and only after years of struggle and blind searching, in terms of my "spiritual" identity. So my overall question re: the distinctinon between 3rd ind/1st spiritaul was arising out of my own subjective struggle with all this and trying to understand how to make sense of that in terms of the EA stages - how to better understand them from the perspective of my own experience. And again, my own experience with "smallness", until recently, has always seemed to derive from the strong desire not to be seen due to fear, but also a wrestling with ego (in the sense of desiring to be big, yet somehow knowing that desiring to be big is a hindrance.... I was thinking that 3rd ind possibly doesn't have this beef with ego, and that might be one distinction between 3rd ind and 1st spiritual...
They may not understand how different from everyone else they are - that would relate to the feeling of not being seen. They are typically going to have many experiences from early childhood on showing them they are NOT going to be loved for who they are. That in fact almost no one will have any idea who they are. Those experiences, while not fun, are designed by the Soul to throw that person back on them self, to be forced to explore their inner reality more deeply.
Steve
Quote from: PamS on Mar 28, 2010, 01:29 PM
Hi All,
I just wanted to add to something Ellen asked
I think I am finally beginning to grasp the nature of some of my own confusion with regard to this topic. It seems to have to do with a failure to grasp the inherent difference between 3rd stage individuated and 1st stage spiritual. It is my understanding that 1st stage spiritual feels small and that this feeling of smallness is, if I have understood Adina correctly, because the person in this stage is beginning to understand itself in relation to God. And with this new awareness, the Soul feels utterly small - like a grain of sand. Is it correct to say that 3rd stage individuated does NOT feel any of this smallness? And then is the reason it does not feel this smallness because the Soul in this stage has not yet understood itself - grasped the magnitude of - its relation to the Divine? So then can you say that there is a shift between 3rd individuated and 1st spiritual - the former not caring what anyone else (ie, its reference point is the rest of humanity) thinks of what it is doing while the latter shifts into beginning to care what GOD thinks of what it is doing (ie, its reference point is God, not people)?
Steve answered this pretty well, but my addition is from my observation and correlation is.. I am an artist and astrologer, some of my clients are 3rd stage individuated and so were some of my teachers in art school.... The thing I have observed over the years is that 3rd stage thinks it knows the universe, they really feel that they have hit the end and know what it is.... Its a Leo archetype... 1st stage spiritual knows they don't know....Transition between 3rd individuated and 1st the humbling process has already taken place so there are inklings of feeling small... The only smallness the 3rd indvuated feels is the deep knowing that the system does not support them. But their ego blows right through that. hope that helps....
pam
Hi Pam
Yes, this helps a ton. Thanks.
Ellen
Hi Ellen
Thank you for what you said, and the vulnerability and honesty with which you said it. I will try to answer in kind.
QuoteThe 1st spiritual (as a child) who is hiding in consensus reality (and what I mean by this is the 1st spiritual who chooses consensus individuals for parents)"¦
If I understand correctly what you are saying, you might be placing too harsh a judgment on yourself by believing that the reason you had consensus parents was you trying to hide in consensus reality. There are many reasons a Soul could pick consensus state parents. A few examples - past karma with the parents; previous lives where the Soul was buried, so to speak, by consensus, and the Soul had to symbolically recreate those conditions so that different choices could be made this time.
Quotewouldn't necessarily understand - yet - how God/Goddess is looking at us... correct?
I would describe the way you previously phrased it, about concern about what God was thinking about that person, as an expression "of a religious culture that preaches that "God" DOES look down on her and judge her negatively." The Soul would in fact understand within itself this was distortion of actual reality. Due to patriarchal religious conditionings it would have forgotten or distorted what it already knew. That is not the same as not already understanding it.
QuoteThinking of those who are hiding due to past life persecutions, this person, I think (I'm drawing here on my own experiences) would be primarily concerned with not being found out.
Yes
QuoteS/he would also be subject to the traumas of a religious culture that preaches that "God" DOES look down on her and judge her negatively. As a child, she wouldn't have defenses against this point of view. This also explains to me why I'm making the connection (below) between feeling small and conforming.
yes
QuoteThe 1st spiritual in hiding, I was thinking, was MAKING HERSELF SMALL so as not to bring upon her more persecution, and she was doing this instinctually, not consciously.
Consider it might be the other way around - The Soul is already feeling small. It creates a situation in which that inner sense of feeling small can manifest as exactly that, which further reinforces the sense of feeling small. Remember that the whole point of the feeling small is to enforce a sense of humility. Thus in some ways the entire circumstance could have been created as a way to humiliate, thus further humble, the Soul. This is Virgo stuff, and 1st stage Spiritual is a Virgo-like archetype.
QuoteIt would only be later, at whatever point s/he could escape (physicall/emotionally) from this consensus environment that s/he might be able to re-orient her perspective away from the condemning religious perspective that s/h was steeped in as a child. So I'm thinking that while the ultimate trajectory for 1st spiritual is towards the perspective you identify, perhaps it does not always start out that way....?
Consider what I said about the necessity to humble the Soul. Can you see, from that perspective, how such experiences could further that intention? Even though they were very difficult? They lead later to that Soul remembering who it really is, in 1st stage spiritual. Again, it's a forgetting and later remembering of what is already known, not something new being learned.
QuoteHere again I was asking from a subjective perspective. BECAUSE the 1st spiritual child was not seen - ie, not given a mirror back as to who s/he was, s/he would not have developed the capacity to subjectively know who s/he was in a CONSCIOUS way. Again, it would only be later, when s/he "escaped" that s/he would develop subjective awareness of who s/he is and that, looking back s/h could then say that, based on OBJECTIVE indications, s/he in fact DID always "know". Does this make sense?
Yes, but if you look closely at what you said, the Soul already knew who it was. The child just did not remember it was the Soul. Further necessary humbling occurred as the result of the experiences, by the time the adult again recalled its actual identity.
QuoteIn my own life this has played out in slow peeling layers - 1st with regard to my sexual orientation, and only after years of struggle and blind searching, in terms of my "spiritual" identity. So my overall question re: the distinctinon between 3rd ind/1st spiritaul was arising out of my own subjective struggle with all this and trying to understand how to make sense of that in terms of the EA stages - how to better understand them from the perspective of my own experience. And again, my own experience with "smallness", until recently, has always seemed to derive from the strong desire not to be seen due to fear, but also a wrestling with ego (in the sense of desiring to be big, yet somehow knowing that desiring to be big is a hindrance.... I was thinking that 3rd ind possibly doesn't have this beef with ego, and that might be one distinction between 3rd ind and 1st spiritual...
I would say that slow peeling layers in pretty much the norm. Most such Souls have been deeply traumatized down through patriarchal reality. The recovery from the traumas is necessarily slow, gentle, steady, nurturing.
It is possible the desire to be big could be a carryover from 3rd stage individuated, but it is also possible (I don't have your birth chart thus don't know how it is put together) that the desire to be big was an act of compensation (Jupiter/Sag) trying to make up for the perceived smallness, lacks, inadequacies. Again I feel its important to be careful not to judge yourself too harshly.
The survival instinct is the most primal instinct in human nature. A person will do what they need to do to survive. If one is feeling very small, the instinct to make one's self feel larger could be a survival strategy. You might be correct about it being a holdover from 3rd stage indiv. Just saying, other causes are possible.
Hope this is helpful
Steve
Thank you Ellen and Steve for your latest posts.
It occurred to me after reading them, that by looking at the type of separating desires a person has and acts on can be a clue to their evolutionary state... is this and on track thought? Thanks, Heather
Hi Heather
Quote from: mountainheather on Mar 29, 2010, 06:24 PM
Thank you Ellen and Steve for your latest posts.
It occurred to me after reading them, that by looking at the type of separating desires a person has and acts on can be a clue to their evolutionary state...
yes, definitely. also look at the motivations behind the separating desires, the ways they are actualized, and the attitudes with which they are actualized.
Consider what I said about the necessity to humble the Soul. Can you see, from that perspective, how such experiences could further that intention? Even though they were very difficult? They lead later to that Soul remembering who it really is, in 1st stage spiritual. Again, it's a forgetting and later remembering of what is already known, not something new being learned
But why? Why go through all that if the soul, once remembered, knows who it really is? I realize from my own experiences and soul evolution how much the difficulties have helped me grow, but some part of me still questions. If I was happy as a child, at least initially, and remembered my connection to God, why would my soul need to have these humbling experiences. I thought I was humble as a child, then wham! trauma hits...I'm being dramatic here, just to make a point.
All this can be very confusing for a SN in Sagittarius, no wonder its taken me so long to figure this out. With many past life memories based in disempowerment, trauma, abuse--smallness and additional memories of being a healer and living in times of the matriarch too--very complex to piece together, thus how would one know?
Very funny all this. I had a session with JWG in 1996 after I found the Pluto books. I didn't know he had a school though.
The Virgo soul theme of humility is intense (Uranus Pluto Venus opp Saturn square nodes here).
Hi Wendy
Quote from: Wendy on Mar 29, 2010, 09:50 PM
But why? Why go through all that if the soul, once remembered, knows who it really is? I realize from my own experiences and soul evolution how much the difficulties have helped me grow, but some part of me still questions. If I was happy as a child, at least initially, and remembered my connection to God, why would my soul need to have these humbling experiences. I thought I was humble as a child, then wham! trauma hits...I'm being dramatic here, just to make a point.
This is just the way life works, Wendy. You can verify that through your daily experience. Even what you wrote validates what I said. You were happy and humble as a child, and wham, trauma hits. Who, from our vantage point, can say why. None the less, it happens over and over, to most if not all people.
Actually we are here, like the wave on the ocean, to play a small role in the ongoing evolution of the Soul that created us. That is the only reason we are here. We think we are here to be happy, to self-express, to create a comfortable life, to raise children, etc. And many people can accomplish much of that. But by the time someone is in the 1st spiritual state, if not before, those aims are not really going to satisfy, and attempts to live only for those things tend to not work out. That can be hard to take at times. Some experiences a Soul needs for its evolution are not ones that are fun from the perspective of being a human being. Its just built in. Who can say exactly why.
This is the way human existence was created, by Creator. Those who have had the "big experiences" report that from the vantage point of Creator, it all makes sense and has beauty and purpose. But few of us live from that vantage point, and from the one we do live by a lot of this is difficult. What I keep seeing is we are continually thrown back on ourselves, to remember again we are not here just to enjoy ourselves, but to learn lessons of surrender, compassion, service, carrying out the life purpose we came here for, etc.
QuoteAll this can be very confusing for a SN in Sagittarius, no wonder its taken me so long to figure this out. With many past life memories based in disempowerment, trauma, abuse--smallness and additional memories of being a healer and living in times of the matriarch too--very complex to piece together, thus how would one know?
seems like one learns or remembers through trial and error. doesn't it?
QuoteThe Virgo soul theme of humility is intense (Uranus Pluto Venus opp Saturn square nodes here).
Then you can see why you've had those experiences. They may not be fun but they are pretty effective. And that basically is what the Soul is interested in, learning the lessons. To go back to EA, the more intense the chart, the more aspects to Pluto, the more retrograde planets, the more Scorpio/8th house stuff, the more the Soul has set the present life up to evolve.
Out of all the pain, another quality develops - compassion. Empathy for what others have to endure.
PS. An Authentic Courage is building ...Soul Courage Seeds ~
Deepest Gratitude,
Dhyana
Quote from: Steve on Mar 30, 2010, 02:15 AM
Actually we are here, like the wave on the ocean, to play a small role in the ongoing evolution of the Soul that created us. That is the only reason we are here. We think we are here to be happy, to self-express, to create a comfortable life, to raise children, etc. And many people can accomplish much of that. But by the time someone is in the 1st spiritual state, if not before, those aims are not really going to satisfy, and attempts to live only for those things tend to not work out...to remember again we are not here just to enjoy ourselves, but to learn lessons of surrender, compassion, service, carrying out the life purpose we came here for...the more intense the chart, the more aspects to Pluto, the more retrograde planets, the more Scorpio/8th house stuff, the more the Soul has set the present life up to evolve.
Out of all the pain, another quality develops - compassion. Empathy for what others have to endure.
Thanks for the response Steve. My questions were stemming from wondering why souls aren't given a EA descriptive sheet of sorts to at least direct us to which stage of evolution we signed up for in given lifetimes.
Surrender, service and compassion are definitely the most important things in my life. My ego and others have tried to sway me, saying I was sabotaging myself which has been a theme (Virgo), but in truth my soul is aiming for a different trajectory which I now understand and therefore need not give guilt any power or continue to compare myself or feel others who act as if they are in service, yet making loads of money seems to be the agenda.
I have 7 aspects to my natal Pluto, 8th house planets, lots of progressed Scorpio, and a retrograde signature.
Thanks Steve for your time and attention to my questions.
Blessings,
Wendy
Quote from: Wendy on Mar 30, 2010, 08:39 AM
My questions were stemming from wondering why souls aren't given a EA descriptive sheet of sorts to at least direct us to which stage of evolution we signed up for in given lifetimes.
Think what life would be like if parents received an EA reading for their children, and knew enough and cared enough to guide the child in its intended directions. I do a fair number of readings for young parents who are friends of mine, and they find it extremely helpful. (It also explains why in some cases there are certain inherent conflicts between a young child and a parent. From that clarity, strategies can be developed for relieving some of the stressful elements).
This is the power of EA. Those of us who resonate with it have the capacity to positively influence lives with it, life long. That is the main reason this website and message board exist.
Steve
Yes, that is my interest as well, especially working with parents and child...
If evolutionary progress of soul is slow because of patriarchal society? and if we were in a progressive evolutionary society, would evolution occur more readily? and not be so painfully archaic? seems brutal and doesn't have to be extreme.
Also does the earth have a soul and if so what state is she in? same for our galaxy?
Hope my questions aren't too far out!
Hi Steve,
Thanks a million for your responses. What a confusing journey this is... I appreciate your patient efforts to help me see things in a new way.
Your words re: humility really struck a chord. I DO see how that is the Soul's intention - how the Soul feeling small came first, and then came the circumstances to reinforce.
Jupiter is indeed a factor in my chart (squaring the nodes, Sag is on my IC conjuncting my Cap Sun). And indeed "inflated pride" has been a default throughout much of my life and, like alcohol for an alcoholic, something I always have to be aware of. I am still trying to find my footing without it.
Peace,
Ellen
Quote from: Steve on Mar 30, 2010, 02:15 AM
Actually we are here, like the wave on the ocean, to play a small role in the ongoing evolution of the Soul that created us. That is the only reason we are here. We think we are here to be happy, to self-express, to create a comfortable life, to raise children, etc. And many people can accomplish much of that. But by the time someone is in the 1st spiritual state, if not before, those aims are not really going to satisfy, and attempts to live only for those things tend to not work out. That can be hard to take at times. Some experiences a Soul needs for its evolution are not ones that are fun from the perspective of being a human being. Its just built in. Who can say exactly why.
I don't mean to be impertinent here, but can I just say "MONEY"... What a nightmare! But I'm curious about this. The old ways/motivations don't sustain. Yet there is still the need to make a living. Because the old ways/motivations don't sustain, it is hard (it is for me, anyway) to channel one's energies into the task of making a living. I am saying this from the perspective of having worked in the health care industry for many years and seeing how the profit motive has really become the motivating factor. We - those of us doing the frontline work (I work as a nursing asst/medical secretary) - are really struggling. I actually finally gave my notice recently and will soon be unemployed. At the same time I understand that life is taking me in a new direction, which I have not yet discovered yet. I also recognize that it is easy to let fear rule the day. Anyway, curious how others have reconciled this.
Peace,
Ellen
Hi Ellen,
I'm assuming you self-identify as a 1st spiritual. To that end, here is a brief quote from EA astrologer Maurice Fernandez (from his latest book) - it is a small excerpt from the section on evolutionary stages (in this case, 1st spiritual). (I really hope he doesn't mind!):
"Questions about relinquishing a "regular job" are likely to arise because less meaning is found in a traditional vocation. Yet remaining involved in the everyday world can serve its purpose, especially for the sake of integrating spiritual values into the modern world and testing one's capacity to remain spiritually centered in the midst of daily struggles. At some point, the time may be right to transition to a spiritually oriented profession that is more in tune with one's values."
Quote from: Ellen on Mar 30, 2010, 03:01 PM
I don't mean to be impertinent here, but can I just say "MONEY"... What a nightmare! But I'm curious about this. The old ways/motivations don't sustain. Yet there is still the need to make a living. Because the old ways/motivations don't sustain, it is hard (it is for me, anyway) to channel one's energies into the task of making a living. I am saying this from the perspective of having worked in the health care industry for many years and seeing how the profit motive has really become the motivating factor. We - those of us doing the frontline work (I work as a nursing asst/medical secretary) - are really struggling. I actually finally gave my notice recently and will soon be unemployed. At the same time I understand that life is taking me in a new direction, which I have not yet discovered yet. I also recognize that it is easy to let fear rule the day. Anyway, curious how others have reconciled this.
Peace,
Ellen
Hi Ellen
Of all the things that can make us feel insecure, lack of money is really high on the list. For myself I found it worked best to transition to heart work rather than taking big leaps, which I had tried previously. I used to be an MIS manager. I left the computer realm and moved west ten years ago. To summarize, I found the skills I had learned were still of value to others. I was shown different ways to put them together. The first was that I had to approach doing computer work strictly as an act of service, offering skills I knew how to do to others who didn't have those skills and could benefit from what I as a conscientious, client-oriented person bring in from my experience.
It took me 5 - 7 years to make the transition. Today I do EA work and also a lot of web development. It's all done out of my home. I live simply and keep my focus on being of service.
If you think about it (perhaps you already have) you could find ways you could use the skills you've developed in healthcare, putting them together in new ways. It would be you and no overhead and no organization. It comes down to getting known and trusted, which takes some time, sometimes a few years. From that base you can also expand out into more heart centered work that speaks to your spiritual calling, that feels like Soul work. I can assure you that consumers of healthcare services are as burned out on the present industry as you are. There is a great response today to people providing services based on heart, integrity, fairness, and client comes first attitudes.
Steve
Quote from: bluesky on Mar 30, 2010, 03:24 PM
Hi Ellen,
I'm assuming you self-identify as a 1st spiritual. To that end, here is a brief quote from EA astrologer Maurice Fernandez (from his latest book) - it is a small excerpt from the section on evolutionary stages (in this case, 1st spiritual). (I really hope he doesn't mind!):
"Questions about relinquishing a "regular job" are likely to arise because less meaning is found in a traditional vocation. Yet remaining involved in the everyday world can serve its purpose, especially for the sake of integrating spiritual values into the modern world and testing one's capacity to remain spiritually centered in the midst of daily struggles. At some point, the time may be right to transition to a spiritually oriented profession that is more in tune with one's values."
Hi bluesky,
Thanks so much for sharing this quote. I agree with it. It is true that there is a part of me that would like to just go to some isolated spot and meditate. There is also a part of me that would simply like to be of simple service to others in some way. The part of the quote that I put in bold is especially interesting to me. This has been my dilemma for a number of years now - it used to be POSSIBLE to do this in the health care industry - and I think the mainstream world generally. Work used to be just that - a place to "test one's capacity to remain spiritually centered [I would frame that as "service-oriented"] in the midst of daily struggles." But today's corporocracy and relentless profit motive have changed things so much. It's not your routine, run of the mill daily struggle anymore. I finally had to throw in the towel. My BODY was saying "No" to it in so many ways. Life was becoming more and more of a grind -like an endless series of impossible catch 22's. Ah, life!
Peace to you,
Ellen
Quote from: Steve on Mar 30, 2010, 04:32 PM
Quote from: Ellen on Mar 30, 2010, 03:01 PM
I don't mean to be impertinent here, but can I just say "MONEY"... What a nightmare! But I'm curious about this. The old ways/motivations don't sustain. Yet there is still the need to make a living. Because the old ways/motivations don't sustain, it is hard (it is for me, anyway) to channel one's energies into the task of making a living. I am saying this from the perspective of having worked in the health care industry for many years and seeing how the profit motive has really become the motivating factor. We - those of us doing the frontline work (I work as a nursing asst/medical secretary) - are really struggling. I actually finally gave my notice recently and will soon be unemployed. At the same time I understand that life is taking me in a new direction, which I have not yet discovered yet. I also recognize that it is easy to let fear rule the day. Anyway, curious how others have reconciled this.
Peace,
Ellen
Hi Ellen
Of all the things that can make us feel insecure, lack of money is really high on the list. For myself I found it worked best to transition to heart work rather than taking big leaps, which I had tried previously. I used to be an MIS manager. I left the computer realm and moved west ten years ago. To summarize, I found the skills I had learned were still of value to others. I was shown different ways to put them together. The first was that I had to approach doing computer work strictly as an act of service, offering skills I knew how to do to others who didn't have those skills and could benefit from what I as a conscientious, client-oriented person bring in from my experience.
It took me 5 - 7 years to make the transition. Today I do EA work and also a lot of web development. It's all done out of my home. I live simply and keep my focus on being of service.
If you think about it (perhaps you already have) you could find ways you could use the skills you've developed in healthcare, putting them together in new ways. It would be you and no overhead and no organization. It comes down to getting known and trusted, which takes some time, sometimes a few years. From that base you can also expand out into more heart centered work that speaks to your spiritual calling, that feels like Soul work. I can assure you that consumers of healthcare services are as burned out on the present industry as you are. There is a great response today to people providing services based on heart, integrity, fairness, and client comes first attitudes.
Steve
Hi Steve,
Thanks for this. Yes, that is my desire - to be of service in some way (since I can't retreat to the mountain top.... actually, my desire for retreat has a lot to do with my frustrated desire to be of service...). I think the trick for me is going to be to trust. It is hard for me not to know how it will all play out (lots of Capricorn). But I am very intentionally NOT working out "the plan", because I know that comes from fear. Thanks for saying that money is high on the list of causes of insecurity. It is huge for me. Yet at the same time, I have been blessed in life (I haven't yet been fully able to let myself TRUST this) in that, while I've never been rich and always kind of lived by the seat of my pants financially-speaking, I've ALWAYS had what I needed and somehow always MAGICALLY have the money I need for the BIG things that I really want to do, ie, LEARN...
Peace and gratitude,
Ellen
Hi Adina, thank you for your responses to my posts. I am a bit shy to ask the endless number of questions that come to mind, but the warmth and sharing here is steady and true, and very encouraging.
I am very interested in understanding the idea that even incarnating is a separating desire. Why do our souls want to separate from the creator? isn't that the big illusion, that we only think we are separate, but we aren't really. I know this is probably unanswerable but I can't help wanting to know... is that the whole point of having the bottom line of the astrology chart to decipher our little part of it?
My 9 year old son asked me "what are people for?" ....I didn't have an answer .... but I've been holding that question in my mind and heart a lot lately and it seems relevant.
I do have more questions about evolutionary states, so I hope this thread can continue!
Thanks to you all for sharing, Heather
What an insightful, beautiful, and profound question your son asked?
Yes, I like that question your son asked!
I just thought I'd pop in - we didn't create the separation or chose to separate. The source itself separates us from itself - that's it's decision. I think about these questions only to accept that it's unfathomable why. We're playing a game but we didn't make up the rules, you can play well or poorly. We are limited by our human form and ego - I think the soul's perspective is vastly different, so our ego's wonder, 'why, why?' but our soul is so much vaster.
I think there is a natural acceptance and enjoyment of process - that is reflected in natural law. Hard to say 'why' though. Like a child could die when it's five - and never experience a full life, but that is not satisfying to us, or most of us at any rate, is it? We like to see the growing, flowering and a quality of fruition. I apply that to the growth of the soul even if in the end it simply comes back to 'ground zero' - Source...
I think literally the term 'Maya' means 'manifesting the unmanifest'.
Hope this helps - but, probably not! I know how frustrating those 'why' questions are! :)
This just feels so fitting to add right now.
...kinda like a PSS to my last post on this thread -- the gift and ability to bear the unbearable when following the intention of Soul
... as we move through the stages ~
http://www.youtube.com/user/itisnowforever#p/a/u/1/AVx6H68Siww
Real Peace
Dhyana
Quote from: Ellen on Apr 01, 2010, 12:35 PM
Quote from: Steve on Mar 29, 2010, 05:40 PM
QuoteThe 1st spiritual in hiding, I was thinking, was MAKING HERSELF SMALL so as not to bring upon her more persecution, and she was doing this instinctually, not consciously.
Consider it might be the other way around - The Soul is already feeling small. It creates a situation in which that inner sense of feeling small can manifest as exactly that, which further reinforces the sense of feeling small. Remember that the whole point of the feeling small is to enforce a sense of humility. Thus in some ways the entire circumstance could have been created as a way to humiliate, thus further humble, the Soul. This is Virgo stuff, and 1st stage Spiritual is a Virgo-like archetype.
Hi Steve,
I just wanted to make the observation that this seems like a really tricky path (again, thinking of my own experiences with this) and also ask what the real intention of Virgo is (I've gone over the archetypes but I seem to always get bogged down in the "negative" manifestations of Virgo and so don't feel I have a clear understanding of the "positive" side). Humility (real humility) is not the same as self-deprecation, right? Yet Virgo often seems to manifest this way. Self-deprecation will definitely reinforce the feelings of being small, but not in a healthy way, right? But is even this unhealthy manifestation of Virgo part of the process? I mean, it does seem like it - this experience of relentless self-criticism/deprecation - forces the person into the arms of the Creator, so to speak. I am curious about your perspective on this - what EA has to say about Virgo and its manifestation of self-deprecation (false humility?). If the Garden of Eden story gives rise to and explains the negative manifestation, how can we see through/beyond/beneath/etc. this story and archetype to the healthy manifestation? Also, in keeping with this thread, does its manifestation change as one evolves through the stages?
Peace,
Ellen
I second all your questions, Ellen! :)
Having the sun in virgo & growing up with the classic descriptions in virgo I have always felt a bit let down when on one hand you have this beautiful imagery and the other it says: 'makes a good secretary'. ::)
I think of the natural archetype of virgo, at it's core, as a priestess. It's the humbling to allow room for the vastness outside your ego & known world. The priestess makes the effort to recognize the divine and spiritual in every small aspect of their daily lives. Looking at the historical accounts of priestesses they frequently had many 'mundane' duties each day - but, with the proper virgo spirit these duties are transformed. During the course of their lives of dedication, for instance, Inanna, they would slowly purify themselves and become closer to the goddess they served. I think of Mercury's rulership of virgo as being more of a messenger betweeen soul and 'spirit' or the various worlds. Mercury being, aside from Persephone who is frequently the 'model' for virgo, the only god who can go between the worlds effortlessly. I've found it interesting that in some artistic depictions of the virgin mary & gabriel he is, of course, winged but also frequently has a cadusceus (spelling that wrong!). I've always thought of mary, of course, 'virgin' and gabriel as a mercury figure. I also think of Ariadne, who in some myths become the constellation Virgo and Dionysus. In the celtic pantheon you have Rosmerta & Mercury.
I think when you have the feminine, the earth, sexuality and 'mundane' aspects of life denigrated you find some pretty neurotic virgos! Virgo, also, is the 'shadow' of the pisces age.
There is a recent book titled 'portrait of a priestess' which is great, good for actual historical detail into the lives of ancient greek priestesses. So, anyway, that's the symbolic, archetypal nexus I associate with virgo.
I've found a healthy sense of humor, of the laugh at oneself quality, is helpful for virgo (Sag. square) but in general masochism which is connected to the degradation of the earth, etc. that fuels the patriarchal idea of 'pie in the sky' and that we are inherently sinful or the idea (talked of earlier in the thread) that we separated ourselves from Spirit - way too much volition and creativity is given to humans and it's not a very humble idea, that we have the power to do that - we did not separate ourselves Spirit did. Over time we can choose to separate permanently, or however permanent it would be, via choosing evil or we choose to merge back to Spirit - but, we didn't put the 'game' in motion. Look to partriarchal unnatural ideas to find the source of masochism and unnatural guilt - thus, the problems with virgo, again virgo is 'in the shadow' of pisces. And I think patriarchal realities are tied to pisces in that sense of being disconnected from earth and having projected all divinity 'outside' and assuming all guilt for a theologically 'fallen' state.
This has gotten too long! I'm looking forward to Steve and Adina's thoughts!
Hope this helps.
Hi Ellen (and Lucius)
QuoteI just wanted to make the observation that this seems like a really tricky path (again, thinking of my own experiences with this) and also ask what the real intention of Virgo is (I've gone over the archetypes but I seem to always get bogged down in the "negative" manifestations of Virgo and so don't feel I have a clear understanding of the "positive" side). Humility (real humility) is not the same as self-deprecation, right? Yet Virgo often seems to manifest this way. Self-deprecation will definitely reinforce the feelings of being small, but not in a healthy way, right? But is even this unhealthy manifestation of Virgo part of the process? I mean, it does seem like it - this experience of relentless self-criticism/deprecation - forces the person into the arms of the Creator, so to speak. I am curious about your perspective on this - what EA has to say about Virgo and its manifestation of self-deprecation (false humility?). If the Garden of Eden story gives rise to and explains the negative manifestation, how can we see through/beyond/beneath/etc. this story and archetype to the healthy manifestation? Also, in keeping with this thread, does its manifestation change as one evolves through the stages?
What you are writing about goes back to the patriarchal conception of God as perfect versus the EA/natural conception of God as imperfect, as an evolving force that is seeking its perfection.
As Wolf said many times, why would a perfect God create anything at all? What would be the point?
The root of conditioned (learned) guilt is that we are not perfect enough. This is what the patriarchal religions have taught for thousands of years. Guilt is a very effective way to control people.
Look around you. How much perfection do you see on this planet? Even in nature there are imperfections from our ideas of what the perfect tree, plant, animal should look like. Small flaws here and there. There is nothing perfect. Yet we have bought into the idea that unless I do something perfectly it is not good enough, and I am not good enough. These things are the conditioned Virgo. This stuff exists on up into at least 1st stage Spiritual.
The natural or unconditioned Virgo is the acceptance of imperfection. You are still aware of what you (Virgo) lack, and what you need to improve. But instead of beating self up about one's failings, you realize that you are
supposed to be where you find yourself. My intention is to to self-improve (Virgo). It is not a failing that I am imperfect, but part of the intended plan. Intentions count - I strive to self-improve step-by-step (Virgo), little by little. A key natural Virgo archetype is The Value is in the Effort. Over time effort leads to change and self-improvement.
That is a huge difference from the conditioned guilt-ridden masochistic patriarchal Virgo.
There is a natural self-deprecation, where one is aware of their limits, the foibles of life in human form. Its taken with a sense of humor. That is natural humility. Self-deprecation based on "I am worthless", or inadequate is something else altogether - masochism. That is pathology, not humility.
I'd say the manifestation changes as one goes through the stages, yes. Consensus is going to accept the patriarchal guilt-laden Virgo archetypes. Individuated will be intellectually in rebellion against that while still accepting portions of it emotionally, which they will tend to deny (Virgo). Could even build a cover ego, as rebellion and/or compensation. Spiritual state will begin accepting the natural imperfections in divinity - we can't be any more perfect that that which created us. Thus coming to accept the limitations. That being the bridge back from conditioned Virgo to natural Virgo.
The natural humility activates the natural Virgo qualities of 1st stage spiritual - to feel small - feeling small not making one feel inadequate but seeing it as acknowledgment of who one actually is, a small player in a vast cosmic drama. The desire to self-improve, the desire to serve and heal others, as expression of that spiritual impulse and devotional orientation.
I think the essence of the archetypes is more or less in what I wrote here. For myself I find it best to go first to the core. After understanding the core I can look at manifestations, like the priestesses Lucius discussed, to see how they are actualizing the core archetypes.
Hope this is useful
Steve
Thank you so much, Lucius!
Quote from: Steve on Apr 01, 2010, 03:35 PM
There is a natural self-deprecation, where one is aware of their limits, the foibles of life in human form. Its taken with a sense of humor. That is natural humility. Self-deprecation based on "I am worthless", or inadequate is something else altogether - masochism. That is pathology, not humility.
This is just a comment that I was going to include in my original post but decided not to. The above quote nails it on the head for me re: this story. The Catholic parish my family belonged to when I was growing up was called St. Alphonsus. The teaching was relentlessly judgmental. The "fruit" was that so long as you believed yourself to be a terrible, horrible person, and denied yourself completely, you would be "loved" and "accepted". (Interestingly, I sort of see this playing out often in the corporate world.) Some years ago, when I was waking up to all this, I checked out a biography of St. Alphonsus. "Self-deprecation based on 'I am worthless', or inadequate" was THE theme of his life. It was an eye-opening experience for me to read this. It really helped me "claim" that this really did happen. It's all so subtle, if only because it is so much the norm today. Pluto/Uranus/Virgo 12th. I guess this is what's up for me in this life....
Ellen
Hope this is useful
Yes, very useful. Thank you!
Steve
PS I just wanted to say that I don't want to be dismissive of the truly saintly quality of the life of St. Alphonsus himself. I felt that that was also true about his life. But as is often the case, the "saintliness" of things get distorted. Also, I do recognize that I resonated to this distortion and thus experienced it in this life.
Quote from: Dhyana on Mar 31, 2010, 01:32 PM
This just feels so fitting to add right now.
...kinda like a PSS to my last post on this thread -- the gift and ability to bear the unbearable when following the intention of Soul
... as we move through the stages ~
http://www.youtube.com/user/itisnowforever#p/a/u/1/AVx6H68Siww
Real Peace
Dhyana
Hi Dhyana,
This video is quite beautiful. Thanks for sharing it.
Ellen
I have been reading through this thread and have many questions which may already have been answered, so I hope they are not repeats. And I am much appreciative of any answers to them.
Why is such a large percentage of the planet in consensus state? Does this have to do with patriarchal society?
Is it possible for a 3rd stage consensus soul to utilize spiritual manipulation to get to the top of their chosen field, game?
If 1st stage spiritual is symbolized by Virgo archetype, and 2nd stage is emblematic of the Leo archetype, does that mean the stages move backward astrologically, like the nodes do?
And if the earth has soul what stage is it in?
Thanks,
Wendy
Hi Wendy
Quote from: Wendy on Apr 04, 2010, 05:46 PM
Why is such a large percentage of the planet in consensus state? Does this have to do with patriarchal society?
This has to do with the laws of evolution, as Darwin discovered.
You could look at it as consensus is what dominates in the species. Individuation and spiritualization you can view, symbolically, as mutations of the dominant species. Thus there will always be more members of the dominant form of a species than in the variations that are mutating.
The key question is, at any point in time, what is the nature of what we are calling consensus. The state of consensus is not static - it also evolves.
If you are familiar with the concept of Yugas, the 22,000+ year cycle of the Precession of the Equinox, you may be aware there are waxing and waning eras, called Yugas, within that cycle. The most spiritually advanced era is called the Satya Yuga. (According to Sri Yukteswar, that Yuga lasts the longest of all the Yugas). I asked about this once, and the answer was that during the Satya Yuga, the nature of consensus reality was what we would now call the beginning of 3rd stage spiritual. To which I asked, well then, if the Souls know they are beginning an 11,000 year down cycle, why don't they just check out of the wheel, so to speak. And the answer was, that is not God's intentions, and the Souls don't have that capacity. In other words, all this we go through is not optional.
QuoteIs it possible for a 3rd stage consensus soul to utilize spiritual manipulation to get to the top of their chosen field, game?
That depends on how you define spiritual. If you are referring to realizations that would occur during the 3 spiritual stages, 3rd stage consensus would not be aware of these, since they had not evolved that far. Thus they couldn't be using them to manipulate.
If you are referring to things like black magic, sure. There are supposedly a lot of occult rituals in things like Yale's Skull and Bones Society.
QuoteIf 1st stage spiritual is symbolized by Virgo archetype, and 2nd stage is emblematic of the Leo archetype, does that mean the stages move backward astrologically, like the nodes do?
No. They share qualities of those archetypes. They are not directly related to the zodiac. The spiritual stage as a whole is a Neptune function, consensus is Saturn, and individuated is Uranus/Aquarius.
Steve
Thanks Steve. I am familiar with the yugas, although I didn't consider the smaller percentage of folks in the individuated and spiritual stages as expressions of the evolution of the species...I really like that, it helps me to understand myself better and the workings of the cosmos.
In regards to the manipulation piece, let's say a spiritualist business type person uses the movie the Secret to motivate others into buying and selling a product line to enhance their own health and wealth. Would a personality soul type, such as, let's say an Aries type personality who is very driven in business and has some spiritual awareness in the current life along with psychic gifts, to be in the individuated state 3rd stage and in 1st stage spiritual while also wanting, desiring to make lots of money?
Hi Wendy
Quote from: Wendy on Apr 05, 2010, 04:00 PM
In regards to the manipulation piece, let's say a spiritualist business type person uses the movie the Secret to motivate others into buying and selling a product line to enhance their own health and wealth. Would a personality soul type, such as, let's say an Aries type personality who is very driven in business and has some spiritual awareness in the current life along with psychic gifts, to be in the individuated state 3rd stage and in 1st stage spiritual while also wanting, desiring to make lots of money?
This again depends on your definitions of terms like "spiritualist business type person". Just because someone calls something "spiritual" doesn't mean it is. It is important to remember that in 1st stage spiritual you will find a person who is
- feeling very small inside
- having an overall attitude of humility and devotion
- desire to SERVE and help heal
Even in an "Aries type personality who is very driven in business". When you look deep within, you will see these qualities within that person. A spiritual Aries type is going to take Aries energy and apply it to courageously initiating new activities that will benefit others, not to enhancing themself.
If they are "desiring to make lots of money", they will be thinking of using that money to do things that benefit others - start a really beautiful healing center, as example. They are NOT going to be about collecting money to prove how successful they are. If they have a beautiful home, they will feel motivated to share it with others, not so people can ooh and ahh about their sucess and taste in homes, but because they have a deep desire to serve.
Things like The Secret have launched "spiritual businessmen" who want everyone to know how conscious and altruistic they are. They may do things that look generous. The issus is the MOTIVATION. Are they doing it because they are driven to serve, or because they think being a giving person is cool and hip, and they want everyone to see how giving they are so everyone will know how spiritually hip they are. That is completely different.
People in 3rd stage individuated could still have enough attachment to ego to exhibit signs of the things you are asking about. There can be an ego associated with 3rd stage individuated. The main archetype is to want to advance society. They could approach that by promoting philosophies they felt would help in that advancement, and seek to profit from them. The green economy is sort of like that - to "do the right thing", and get a big reward for self in the process.
By the time 1st stage spiritual is reached, the idea of personal reward is much diminished - they just want to serve.
Your questions illustrate why learning to recognize the evolutionary stages is so important. 4 planets in Aries is going to play out very differently in the chart of a Soul in 1st stage spiritual than in the chart of 3rd stage consensus. And we need to know HOW that symbol is likely to play out in both of those charts.
There are so many "spiritual" books and workshops out there today that many people speak the language, the words, the concepts. Knowing the thoughts is not the same as living them. Far fewer people actually live them. We need to learn to discern the difference.
Hi everyone,
How much of determining a souls evolutionary state is a projection of my own ego?
How can I trust my own perceptions if I myself have unconscious patterns conditioning what I see. Oh, I'm starting to get/feel an answer now that I voiced this... but I'd love to hear more about this from this group.
Also, does the word "personality" have any relevance in ea language (it seems a vague term but a popular one), and if so what do we look at in the chart to see it?
Thanks ever so much, Heather
Hi Heather
Quote from: mountainheather on Apr 06, 2010, 10:30 AM
Hi everyone,
How much of determining a souls evolutionary state is a projection of my own ego?
How can I trust my own perceptions if I myself have unconscious patterns conditioning what I see. Oh, I'm starting to get/feel an answer now that I voiced this... but I'd love to hear more about this from this group.
What you are asking to me is the essence of why we've been having this long series of posts on this topic. When you grasp the archetypes, the indicators, the behaviors, the nature, of each of the stages, then they become objectified in your awareness. It is no longer about your unconscious patterns conditioning your observations. You are simply observing, from experience, certain characteristics. And you have learned that those characteristics are associated with certain evolutionary stages. Thus you can increasingly see just what is, objectively, without bringing in your fears, hopes, preferences, or opinions about it.
Quote
Also, does the word "personality" have any relevance in ea language (it seems a vague term but a popular one), and if so what do we look at in the chart to see it?
EA associates personality with Cancer, 4th house, Moon. We use that word somewhat interchangeably with "ego", representing the focal point or lens, the personality created by the Soul, through which the intended lessons of the present lifetime can be experienced and worked on.
EA looks at the triad of the water signs - 4th/Cancer = personality, 8th/Scorpio = Soul, 12th/Pisces = God. Water signs are the signs of emotion - the way back to God is through the emotional body, and the personality is an important part of the triad.
Steve
Gosh, i feel a little foolish, but I guess I get it when I get it. My grasp of what the experience of ego is has never been too clear... but when I look at my own chart it makes sense.
I still wonder about how the personality reflects evolutionary state, I mean, how deep do we look.
Thanks for walking me through this. Heather
Quote from: mountainheather on Apr 06, 2010, 05:03 PM
Gosh, i feel a little foolish, but I guess I get it when I get it. My grasp of what the experience of ego is has never been too clear... but when I look at my own chart it makes sense.
I still wonder about how the personality reflects evolutionary state, I mean, how deep do we look.
Thanks for walking me through this. Heather
Heather
The reason you are here at all is your Soul has created you, Heather, here, to work out elements of its own evolution. The "you" that you think of yourself as, Heather, "me", the person, the personality, the one that was born and is someday going to die - the sum total of all of that is your ego, your personality.
The metaphor that is given is the ocean and the wave. Waves arise on top of the ocean. A wave has a beginning and an end. Can the wave exist without the ocean? Is the wave actually separate from the ocean or is it an integral and inseparable part of the ocean? Can you see where, as a metaphor, the wave can come to BELIEVE it is separate from the ocean, that it had a beginning and will have an end? That is the relationship between Soul and personality - otherwise called your humanness, in total. Every part of you that thinks it exists somehow outside of its Soul, with a life of its own - that in sum total is your ego, which is the same thing as your personality, your human identity. That in reality is not who you are at all. It simply appears to be that way, and most of us believe it beyond the shadow of a doubt. That does not make it ultimate truth.
We are talking here not about intellectual knowledge, beliefs. We are talking about emotional moment to moment reality. You most likely believe "we are all one". The issue is, what % of the time do you actually EXPERIENCE us at all one, not just see it as a thought? The part of us that does not experience that as our emotional reality is the human, personal, personality, ego.
Hi Steve, I have to laugh at myself, page one of Pluto 1 talks about personality! I apologize to you and the group if I'm too slow for this... I really have been reflecting on these teachings, dusting off my perceptions...
Hopefully this will help others too, here's Jeffrey's words from page 1 Pluto 1
"... the Soul manifests a personality that has a subjective consciousness and unconsciousness. Saturn defines the boundary of our subjective consciousness-that of which we are consciously aware. Uranus represents the individualized unconscious, Neptune the collective unconscious and Pluto the Soul itself. Each personality that the Soul manifests, from lifetime to lifetime, has an ego(moon) that serves as a focusing agent to create one's own self image.... Each personality has an intrinsic nature, an orientation that experiences life in its own unique way. Each personality that the Soul manifests relates directly to the evolutionary necessities of the Soul. THe Soul through the personality must experience life in particular ways in order to grow and evolve. Each personality created is directly linked to the past evolutionary and karmic history of the Soul."
Then he goes on to talk about the two coexisting desires of the soul.
I think where I have been having trouble is in realizing that the personality is a reflection of the soul, that the soul has chosen that expression to learn something...I have been thinking that the soul is hidden by the ego or the personality... that somehow if we look at the surface or the ego-personality, we will not see the state of evolution of that soul, that it doesn't give reliable information about the deeper desires emanating from that soul, or about their evolutionary state. I always want to skip to the current where God is and not emphasize the ego, because thats where the confusion can be for me.
For example, I am a bodyworker, and when I am listening to a person tell me what is occurring for them I listen, knowing that once they get on the table, the story their body tells may be aligned with what they've told me verbally or not and everything in between... so what is always open for me is that what someone says or perceives as themselves, may not be the whole story. In that, my choice has been to go to the pure goodness that is in the body to find love where it is and go there and not focus on the restrictions too much, because I can get too fixated on problems and lose the deeper current of goodness. I think this is what is happening for me with this, I am resisting seeing the reality of separation... and consequently cannot get the rest of the picture... but I'm praying I will.
Do you recommend some tutoring with Deva, or maybe having more one on one with my own chart to work on this? Thanks you for your help. Heather
Heather
Especially as you are a body worker, you can not underplay the importance of recognizing the extent of wounding and trauma that has occurred in all Souls during the last 8 to 10 thousand years of patriarchy. Jeffrey said 80% of all Souls incarnating today are born with PTSD (to varying degrees), caused by unresolved inner traumas experienced in past lives.
My experience has been the majority of people are so dissociated from their actual emotional reality, they don't even know this about themselves. So many people have created personas that are looking for the goodness in life, and being positive, and see the best and the miracles all around them all the time. Thus they are really tuned out from much of their inner reality. In a sense, living in states of denial. That denial in many cases is a survival tactic. The degree of pain hurt wounding betrayal etc that has been experienced is too painful too face. Thus they split off (dissociate) from their emotional bodies.
I'd imagine the majority of people on your table who you ask "how are you" respond from a surface level. To quite a degree, your deeper work is getting them in touch with the parts of themselves they don't want to face. What is needed is an integration of the physical, emotional, mental, and spiritual. Most people hang out in the physical or mental, since it is easier and less painful. The hardest place is the emotional body, and that is where the key to reintegrating the various bodies is usually found.
You can't just listen to what people are telling you. Your fingers tell you the real story of their reality. You feel their pains, traumas, disowned places, etc. How do you know what portions of what you feel are real and what are "your conditioned ego", as I think you put it? If you are honest with yourself, you will just know. You will feel things you have no other way of knowing, and what you feel will be the actual reality. Sure you could introduce a small amount of distortion into the process, but even so you will be 80% accurate.
The issue becomes, how do you get through to someone that the actual reality you experience them living is very different than the one they tell you they live in? That is where counseling skills come in. Few people can take more than a small amount of that in at one time. The actual reality is potentially traumatizing and must be experienced gradually. So you must go slow. Building up trust with a person, being gentle, moving slowly, are the keys. People have been wounded and betrayed over and over. They need to come to trust you before they can consider what you have to say.
At the same time, you can't doubt your perceptions, even if the person tells you that you are off base. Because you feel what you feel. You won't always know know why you feel it, or what you are supposed to do with what you feel. None the less you know it.
You can apply these principles to determining someone's evolutionary stage. You are going to have intuitions. Much of this is about turning off the analyzing left brain, and just feeling what you know without knowing how you know it. That is the definition of intuition (Sag / Jupiter / 9th). I encourage you to try intuiting evolutionary stages, and then checking out your intuitions.
Of course you can get tutoring from Deva. However, is that going to offer anything new, or just be more information poured into your left brain, added to what is already in there? Will this clarify things or possibly even further confused you? (I can't answer that question).
The best way to learn this is stop thinking about them, and start practicing them. Make your own mistakes, draw your own conclusions. You already have people coming to see you regularly. You could practice on your bodywork clients. You don't need their birth data. Ask them questions to determine evolutionary stage. Listen for key phrases that could be tipoffs, now that you are learning the archetypal signatures of each stage. If they ask what you are doing, tell them you are practicing something new and the questions are just for your own education.
No one can teach you how to do this. You have ingested the information. Then you have to start practicing. That is how you will learn. Asking questions of people whose charts you aren't reading makes it safer, because even if you are wrong, its not going to harm them in any way. Its just information. Vs interpreting their chart based on the wrong stage. All you are doing is observing them - no harm done.
Steve
Thanks Steve for the support, I'll take it slow with myself too, ea material is intense for me at times.
...I had a thought that learning about the evolutionary states is like remembering them, that our bodies remember other evolutionary states of our soul...
like a dream, best remembered by feeling my way through. Much for me to practice and ponder with this , thanks again for giving me some time and attention. Heather
Hi
Someone asked the other day if we could discuss 2nd stage individuated. I couldn't find the original post where the question was asked so adding this new one.
To review - 1st stage individuated is Souls who no longer fit into consensus reality. Especially in the beginning stages, this is an insecure process, because they realize on some level that they will be rejected by consensus reality if they reveal who they really are. So they often pretend to be in consensus reality even though they know they are not. Thus a key archetype here is "living a lie". They know they are not who they are pretending to be.
3rd stage individuated is Souls who have discovered their unique individuality, and are seeking to play it out. A key archetype here is the desire to transform the world, to move society forward. This is a core Uranian archetype. They will be seen as ahead of their time, holding progressive ideas seen as strange by the mainstream. Some will exhibit forms of social genius. They are incapable of going back to consensus reality.
What lies in between 1st and 3rd stage? Or, what are the stages through which a 1st stage individuated Soul reaches 3rd stage individuated?
One of the first obvious things that must happen is they must come to ACCEPT their individuality, that they are different, that nothing they can do will stop them from being different. Being different continues bringing no acceptance from the consensus. There is still a core insecurity about being different and not being accepted by the consensus. So they go to almost the other extreme. They carry themselves in such ways that everyone who sees them will KNOW that this person is different and does not fit in. They may dress differently, eat differently, talk differently, work differently. They may adopt habits and modes of living that are specifically designed to separate them from the typical way consensus expects such things will be done. In other words, they make themselves stand out as different, so that anyone who subscribes to consensus values will immediately know that this person doesn't.
Because of the underlying lingering insecurity, they will activate the Aquarian principle of like minded friends. They will seek out fellow rebels. They will form groups, packs. Within those groups, new standards of dress, behavior, attitude will arise. That is, an Aquarian consensus will develop among the group of rebels. Those who do not conform to the Aquarian consensus standards will be rejected by the group. Thus it is, in a sense, a mini version of consensus except only for people who are cool enough to make it into their club, whatever that club is.
Typically there is a permeating anger in 2nd stage individuated people. They are angry the world is the way it is. On one level they are angry that they CAN'T fit into consensus reality, because that creates much insecurity deep within. On another level they are angry THAT the world is predominantly consensus reality, because it is so boring and conforming and uncool.
They don't want to change the world. The groups of rebels stand on the sidelines criticizing consensus reality, how stupid and limited everything is. They refuse to play any part in the world. They just want to hang out in their sub-culture of rebels who tear everything down but offer little constructive to replace it. One reason they don't get involved in changing anything is their deep unrecognized fear that if they did get involved in anything they might get pulled back into consensus. In reality that wouldn't happen, but the Soul has not yet fully realized that. By the time it does, it has reached 3rd stage individuated.
Many people in sub-cultures, even motorcycle gangs, can be in 2nd stage individuated (not every person in such sub-cultures is 2nd stage individuated - there are no hard and fast rules).
The key archetypes to look for include
- deep permeating anger (may not always be visible on the surface)
- deep criticism of the way things are, but no real efforts made to change anything
- tendency to conform to the alternate customs of the subgroup they are identifying with
- underlying fear of getting pulled back into consensus if there is too much exposure to society at large
These description are so helpful!
I HAVE BEEN WONDERING ...WOULD A PERSON AT ANY STAGE, RECOGNIZE, ATLEAST ON SOME LEVEL, A 3RD STAGE SPIRITUAL PERSON? OR WOULD IT TAKE A CERTAIN AMOUNT OF EVOLVING OF THAT ONE WHO CAN RECOGNIZE OR SENSE SOMETHING?
WHAT STAGE PERSON WOULD BE ABLE TO SEE EVEN SEE A GLIMMER OF THE ONE WHO IS IN 3RD STAGE SPRITUAL.
FOR EXAMPLE, LETS USE A 2nd or 3RD STAGE CONSENSUS PERSON -- IF AN ENLIGHTENED 3RD STAGE SPIRITUAL BEING RAN INTO THEM AT THE GROCERY STORE (not like this is a common occurance or there are many around or anything --i am just trying to get to the point), WOULD THE 2nd or 3RD CONSESUS PERSON, FOR EXAMPLE, SENSE ANYTHING? -- OR WOULD IT JUST BE LIKE "ANOTHER REGULAR PERSON" IN THE CROCERY STORE TO THEM?
CURIOUSLY,
DHYANA
Quote from: Dhyana on Apr 14, 2010, 10:16 PM
I HAVE BEEN WONDERING ...WOULD A PERSON AT ANY STAGE, RECOGNIZE, ATLEAST ON SOME LEVEL, A 3RD STAGE SPIRITUAL PERSON? OR WOULD IT TAKE A CERTAIN AMOUNT OF EVOLVING OF THAT ONE WHO CAN RECOGNIZE OR SENSE SOMETHING?
WHAT STAGE PERSON WOULD BE ABLE TO SEE EVEN SEE A GLIMMER OF THE ONE WHO IS IN 3RD STAGE SPRITUAL.
FOR EXAMPLE, LETS USE A 2nd or 3RD STAGE CONSENSUS PERSON -- IF AN ENLIGHTENED 3RD STAGE SPIRITUAL BEING RAN INTO THEM AT THE GROCERY STORE (not like this is a common occurance or there are many around or anything --i am just trying to get to the point), WOULD THE 2nd or 3RD CONSESUS PERSON, FOR EXAMPLE, SENSE ANYTHING? -- OR WOULD IT JUST BE LIKE "ANOTHER REGULAR PERSON" IN THE CROCERY STORE TO THEM?
Think this through. To what degree is a 3rd stage spiritual person going to be conforming to any consensus standard or values? (Your answer should be "not at all").
A second or third stage consensus person is DEFINED by conforming - that is WHO THEY SEE THEMSELVES AS. They value SAMENESS.
A 3rd stage spiritual person person, to them, is the essence of DIFFERENT, even if they dress and groom the same as "normal people". They are carrying, within, a very strong spiritual intensity. This intensity radiates out of the person, subconsciously, and creates an uncomfortableness in others whose life is defined by NOT looking at themselves. It creates an unconscious reaction in them of feeling threatened. Nothing they can put their finger on. That intensity of energy is like holding a mirror in their face.
Since most such people have a vested interest in remaining the same, they will not experience that person as just a regular person in the grocery store. They will of course proceed to deny justify and rationalize what happened, as soon as they possibly can, to sustain their status quo.
Of course, the occasional consensus person will find themselves ATTRACTED to that intensity - it is one way that evolution can occur - a light goes on - "what was that". But not the majority.
Great answer Steve -- That was incredibly enlightening to read. Thank You so much! Just exactly the answer I was looking for and said just perfectly. Thanks again.
(I'm smiling)
Love,
Dhyana
I was told a story that if you put a green unripe banana in a bag with a fruit that is fully ripened that unripened banana will quickly ripen up just by osmosing the ripened-ness of the other fruit.
I actually did the fruit experiment, and it indeed worked..and quite fast actually.
This just came to mind after reading Steve's response.
Blessings
Dhyana
Quote from: Steve on Mar 03, 2010, 10:52 PM
Half this planet is starving but people are concerned about their own personal DNA getting activated in light bodies so they can get the hell out of here and leave the ignorant hungry to fend for themselves. Sounds very spiritual to me.
Hi All,
I was just re-reading this thread, and when I read the above quote from Steve, I thought about an answer that came to me recently when I was trying to come to terms with my (up-to-that-point) inability to help my son with his anger issues.
I had thought (with a brief defeatist attitude): 'Well, this is his issue...he will have to work on this on his own later...after all, he choose to come to this incarnation with this issue.' Then, I quietly asked within: 'He came to me as his parent...yet, I am making no headway...should I just resign myself to this...?'
And, the answer came: 'What if he was a piece of your own Soul, fragmented off, and when you both died to your current forms, and so regained each other, would you not want that other section of your Soul to have grown as much as possible?'
Yes, of course I would. This stuff is hard work (at least for me in this Incarnation). I resolved to not give up, and sent out a prayer of thanks for that answer.
However, here's the real point of that personal story (a story which honestly shows my occasional self-defeatist attitude, and my selfishness).
After I received that answer, I was thinking about other Soul's evolution, and I suddenly understood that the idea applies to All Souls, since they
are All fragments of my Soul, as I am fragments of their Soul, as we are ALL fragments of the One Soul, the Source. So...to help ANY other Soul to evolve is to help yourself evolve.
I actually had to sit down when I had this feeling/insight/realization (it was a bone-deep sense), and it was followed by a feeling of warmth, and peace and heavy silence.
I have read that concept before...probably even in the EA material, but it was just an idea to me. This insight is what made it real for me.
I just wanted to share that on the off-chance that anyone had a comment on it, or it was of any use to anyone.
Blessings to everyone here,
Stephen
Hi,
Two questions, if I may...
Quote
Steve on Apr 05, 2010, 01:58 PM
The spiritual stage as a whole is a Neptune function, consensus is Saturn, and individuated is Uranus/Aquarius.
Would the Dimly Evolved Stage correspond to / be symbolized by Mars? Mars correlates to a brand-new cycle of Evolutionary becoming; symbolizes instinctual nature...
Quote
adina on Mar 27, 2010, 11:51 AM
Virgo is very much at play here in the first stage spiritual.
2nd stage spiritual, which I think is co-ruled by Leo
Steve on Apr 11, 2010, 02:47 PM
2nd Individuated: Because of the underlying lingering insecurity, they will activate the Aquarian principle of like minded friends.
from: second stage spiritual
Steve on Jun 22, 2009, 03:37 PM
the spiritual state is a neptune phenomena. The 1st stage is virgo-like within that, the 2nd is leo-like.
I am interested if other 'zodiac' archetypes relate / correspond to /symbolize other of the Evolutionary States.
Dimly Evolved State:
1st - Taurus-like ?? (fixed, rooted self-identity) ??
2nd - Aries-like ?? (independence) ??
3rd -
Consensus State:
1st -
2nd - Capricorn-like ?? (authority) ??
3rd -
Individuated State:
1st - Gemini-like ?? (knowledge) ??
2nd - Aquarian-like
3rd - Cancer-like ?? (self-acceptance) ??
Transition 3rd Individuate to 1st Spiritual:
Sagittarius-like ?? (truth, synthesis) ??
Spiritual State:
1st - Virgo-like
2nd - Leo-like
3rd - Pisces-like ?? (source) ??
Just some ideas above to perhaps awaken possible discussion on this. It is really not accurate to distill an archetype to a single keyword, but the discussion might bear fruit, if any are interested. Possibly multiple mappings per stage...
Blessings,
Stephen
I'm just re-asking this question bc I wasnt sure if it got missed?
I have a quick question- if a teenager (or anyone, but esp a teenager, in this case) has had experiences of family members that have passed on, appear to them, and/or speak to them, while providing an important message of love --does that rule out some evolutionary states automatically?
(This isnt about Ashley)
Thanks,
Dhyana
... In regards to the above post, anyone who feels they have something relevant to help clarify this question, point me in a certain direction or adding your thoughts,this would be very welcome and appreciated.
I was just reading through this thread and I found this statement...
QuoteI was told a story that if you put a green unripe banana in a bag with a fruit that is fully ripened that unripened banana will quickly ripen up just by osmosing the ripened-ness of the other fruit.
I actually did the fruit experiment, and it indeed worked..and quite fast actually.
Dhyana, are you trying to say that if we get into a giant bag with a third stage spiritual soul, then we will turn enlightened? ... or at least yellow??
;D
QuoteI'm just re-asking this question bc I wasnt sure if it got missed?
I have a quick question- if a teenager (or anyone, but esp a teenager, in this case) has had experiences of family members that have passed on, appear to them, and/or speak to them, while providing an important message of love --does that rule out some evolutionary states automatically?
(This isnt about Ashley)
Thanks,
To me, not innately so. I feel that could happen to anyone- but of course such an event would be important to listen to/take into account. Spiritual experiences, even positive messages about love are possible for any soul. (On a related note- most psychics/readers I have ever met in my life are (I think) are in the early/mid individuated state.)
Quote from: ari moshe on May 18, 2010, 08:13 PM
I was just reading through this thread and I found this statement...
QuoteI was told a story that if you put a green unripe banana in a bag with a fruit that is fully ripened that unripened banana will quickly ripen up just by osmosing the ripened-ness of the other fruit.
I actually did the fruit experiment, and it indeed worked..and quite fast actually.
Dhyana, are you trying to say that if we get into a giant bag with a third stage spiritual soul, then we will turn enlightened? ... or at least yellow??
;D
QuoteI'm just re-asking this question bc I wasnt sure if it got missed?
I have a quick question- if a teenager (or anyone, but esp a teenager, in this case) has had experiences of family members that have passed on, appear to them, and/or speak to them, while providing an important message of love --does that rule out some evolutionary states automatically?
(This isnt about Ashley)
Thanks,
To me, not innately so. I feel that could happen to anyone- but of course such an event would be important to listen to/take into account. Spiritual experiences, even positive messages about love are possible for any soul. (On a related note- most psychics/readers I have ever met in my life are (I think) are in the early/mid individuated state.)
Hi Ari, LOL, -- in reference to the ripe banana -I felt it is more like it could speed one along quite a bit, (and perhaps have one strongly begin to ponder the deeper waters for those in earlier stages, u know, or atleast plant seeds that will germinate & grow in due time) if they saw the real thing in the flesh... ESPECIALLY if there is WILLINGNESS!
---------
and thanks for your thoughts on the question I had... i have had the same experience with the psychics -- i felt they were at those stages too.
ps ari
for example, i think on this MB we are, in a way, put into the paper bag with a 3rd stage teaching, eh?
one more thing ari,
...And lately, I have just taken the entire concept of "enlightenment" and put it aside. sometimes the term itself just gets distracting. i'm sure you can relate to that.
Real Love,
Dhyana
Yes I do feel that way about being here. And btw, I was being 100% humorous about the whole enlightenment yellow thing... everyone knows that enlightened masters are orange!
I don't relate to that word very much any more either. EA, and life itself is teaching me that such idealizations are not helpful or realistic at all.
I totally knew that about u! ;)
thank you again ari
always love hearing from u sooooo much!
Namaste (in the REALEST sense!)
Dhyana
ORANGE, ur hysterical! :D
Hi everyone,
Stephen mentioned something in this thread about the archetypes associated with the substages of the evolutionary states, and I am wondering where this information is. I have looked at both Pluto 1 and Deva's book and only some of the substates related to archetypes are mentioned. I also searched this mb and nothing came up that aligns all archetypes and substages, if I've missed them could someone point me to where they are? THanks, Heather
Quote from: Stephen
I am interested if other 'zodiac' archetypes relate / correspond to /symbolize other of the Evolutionary States.
Just some ideas above to perhaps awaken possible discussion on this. It is really not accurate to distill an archetype to a single keyword, but the discussion might bear fruit, if any are interested. Possibly multiple mappings per stage...
Hi Heather,
I was interested in possible correlations myself, so I was actually just trying to stimulate discussion about that subject. I have copied the lines from that post of mine above. Those were just some ideas of possible correlations that I had, which is why I inserted all the question marks into the list...but the post went unanswered, so I just left it, really...
What do you think as per possible correlations? The only ones that I have seen mentioned are an Aquarian principle associated with 2nd Individuated, the Virgo-like correlation to 1st Spiritual, and the Leo-like correlation with 2nd Spiritual.
Quote
adina on Mar 27, 2010, 11:51 AM
Virgo is very much at play here in the first stage spiritual.
2nd stage spiritual, which I think is co-ruled by Leo
Steve on Apr 11, 2010, 02:47 PM
2nd Individuated: Because of the underlying lingering insecurity, they will activate the Aquarian
principle of like minded friends.
from: second stage spiritual
Steve on Jun 22, 2009, 03:37 PM
the spiritual state is a neptune phenomena.
The 1st stage is virgo-like within that, the 2nd is leo-like.
Blessings,
Stephen
Quote from: Stephen
Would the Dimly Evolved Stage correspond to / be symbolized by Mars? Mars correlates to a brand-new cycle of Evolutionary becoming; symbolizes instinctual nature...
I am interested if other 'zodiac' archetypes relate / correspond to /symbolize other of the Evolutionary States.
Dimly Evolved State:
1st - Taurus-like ?? (fixed, rooted self-identity) ??
2nd - Aries-like ?? (independence) ??
3rd -
Consensus State:
1st -
2nd - Capricorn-like ?? (authority) ??
3rd -
Individuated State:
1st - Gemini-like ?? (knowledge) ??
2nd - Aquarian-like
3rd - Cancer-like ?? (self-acceptance) ??
Transition 3rd Individuate to 1st Spiritual:
Sagittarius-like ?? (truth, synthesis) ??
Spiritual State:
1st - Virgo-like
2nd - Leo-like
3rd - Pisces-like ?? (source) ??
Hi Stephen thanks for your reply. This is what I've been thinking if the zodiac and evolutionary states reflect natural law which is cyclic and imperfect then we would see this reflected here. Wouldn't it be simple if the total twelve substages were just simply following the twelve archetypes, starting with aries ending with pisces, but there seems to be another interface here. (I've also wondered if the evolutionary states are reflected in the human development starting from birth to death but thats another thread topic)
I'm going to look at elements(earth air fire water) and the quality of the archetypes (fixed mutable cardinal) next to see what arises. Must go for now, thanks for the contact! Heather
Hi Stephen and Heather
Long ago, in response to questions on an earlier message board, Jeffrey gave these astro correlations to the evolutionary stages
QuoteConsensus equals Capricorn (Saturn): 1st stage equals taurus, 2nd equals virgo, 3rd is Cap itself
Individuated: equals Aquarius (Uranus): 1st equals gemini, 2nd equals libra, 3rd equals Aquarius itself
Spiritual: Pisces (Neptune): 1st equals cancer, 2nd equals scorpio, 3rd equals Pisces itself ....
in response to additional questions about the spiritual state, he added
Quoterelative to the spiritual state being pisces in general: 1st stage ... this reflects the inherent
polarity of pisces: virgo and thus the picking apart stuff , etc , etc, etc .... yet the first stage thru
'decante' correlation is cancer.... thus the 'ego' that needs to progressively remember/ realize it's
origin .... soul creates ego, god creates soul .. the natural trinity therein .... this comes to ahead,
that is the evolutionary transition, in the second stage which is scorpio relative to the natural
decante .... thus the false sense of ego power/ personnal identification with what has been
inwardly realized to date relative to progressive 'cosmic' realizations .. which of course leads to
that delusive ego being confronted and rehumilated in various ways which is the intent in that
substage ... so that finally the purity of the 3rd stage is arrived at : pisces itself ....
When you are trying to find linear correlations between the signs and stages you are looking at things too linearly and mechanically. These (the zodiac, the cycle of phases, evolutionary stages) are systems that MODEL reality - they are not reality itself. They have their own underlying principles and assumptions. ALL systems based on natural principles will come up with similar results, but each through their own system. Thus astrology, tarot, i ching all produce similar results. But you can't directly correlate i ching to western astrology. Nor can you correlate (as we have discussed) the cycle of phases to the zodiac. Nor can you directly correlate the evolutionary stages to the linear progression of the zodiac. The mind wants to go there because it would make it easier to remember all the information. But that is just not how it works.
Also, someone no doubt will now ask why the fire signs are missing from the list above, or what their role in all this is. Someone asked the question about fire signs at the same time the above questions were answered. Jeffrey did not answer it.
Hi Steve, thanks for your reply.
Its good to know where linear works and where it doesn't. I find the archetypes are a reference point for my imagination , and helps to keep me grounded when I am just walking with what arises... so thank you for sharing.
All the best, Heather
I just felt a heart pull to share this poem.... (link at bottom)
...Because it speaks so exquisitley to the pure devotional flavor of the spiritual stages
--And truly to "it is in the intention" as I have read on here so many times.
Perhaps many of you have already heard this poem. I know I try to hear it freshly every time.
In Opening...
Softening...
Listening with the innermost....
it can pierce the Heart, and open it ever more...
...if we let it.
Thank you for this space to share this.
Ever Opening,
Dhyana
3~
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UF4_KZfIfVI&feature=player_embedded
Hi Steve,
It wasn't in this thread, but I can't find the thread it was in ... but somewhere a few years ago you were hammering away at me about "nothing in the chart has any bearing on a person's evolutionary stage". And I was hanging on to the last vestiges of "but surely if there is this or that signature it must have some reflection, even if indicating in the smallest of ways, that the person might be in evo stage 'x' " etc etc. This was because I was new to EA, and still subconsciously coming from the traditional western astrology paradigm.
Over the last while I've been forced to evaluate the evolutionary stage & substage of several people I'm karmaically connected with, in order to clarify my ongoing relationship to/with them. This has taken a lot of internal thought and contemplation. And it's made it totally clear to me, yet again, how the evolutionary stage of a person and their chart are totally completely different things.
What you said did steer me away from it (reluctantly), and I have always operated on that basis since, but it's absolutely as clear as day now - it's become something I know now as my own experience at a core level.
So just wanted to say thank you.
blessings
Upasika
Hi Upasika
Quote from: Upasika on May 22, 2012, 03:19 PM
somewhere a few years ago you were hammering away at me about "nothing in the chart has any bearing on a person's evolutionary stage". And I was hanging on to the last vestiges of "but surely if there is this or that signature it must have some reflection, even if indicating in the smallest of ways, that the person might be in evo stage 'x' " etc etc. This was because I was new to EA, and still subconsciously coming from the traditional western astrology paradigm.
Over the last while I've been forced to evaluate the evolutionary stage & substage of several people I'm karmaically connected with, in order to clarify my ongoing relationship to/with them. This has taken a lot of internal thought and contemplation. And it's made it totally clear to me, yet again, how the evolutionary stage of a person and their chart are totally completely different things.
What you said did steer me away from it (reluctantly), and I have always operated on that basis since, but it's absolutely as clear as day now - it's become something I know now as my own experience at a core level.
So just wanted to say thank you.
blessings
Upasika
thank you for posting this, and for sharing your thoughts. What you are saying is a great example of deconditioning through actual life experience, leading to personal evolution. What I have learned (and continue learning) is EA works because it is aligned with, is a symbolic expression of, how life actually works. Beyond theory and intellectual constructs. Just, bottom line, how it actually is. So, as we increasingly see that, we see the principles EA expresses playing out in our lives. No astrology is required - they are simply there. To me one of the main gifts EA offers is it lets us objectify what we are experiencing - to step back from our subjective perspective and simply see what is going on without personal emotional investment.
The way I look at it, a natal chart is a blueprint, a script. That script can be fleshed out in many ways - each Soul is going to play it out differently, based on its past, its desire nature, and its evolutionary station. So a first stage consensus and a first stage spiritual Soul could be born at the same moment. They have entirely different reasons for picking that moment and they are going to play that script out quite differently. And yet, there will be similarities. Jeffrey quoting Sri Yukteswar in the beginning of Pluto Vol 1 - "A child is born on that day and at that hour when the celestial rays are in mathematical harmony with his individual karma".
A friend of mine with interest in astrology has recently met someone on line she doesn't know, who was born two minutes after her, same day and year, 700 miles apart in the US. They are having quite a time comparing notes. They are finding its as I said above - they have uncanny similarities, yet they each have fleshed that script out in their own unique and different, yet similar, ways. (because of the birth mileage difference there's a difference in their ascendants, which shifts the house on some planets).
Thanks for sharing your ongoing evolution Upasika. I'm glad to hear that what I "hammered"" you with wound up being of value.
take care
Steve
Hi Steve,
I just noticed this thread and have been reading thru it. Can you describe more about 'feeling very small inside'...like a pebble of sand JWG talks about in Pluto book?
When I consider 1st stage spiritual from reading the descriptions, I get a sense of perfection, like a devotee of Amma Chi. Are there more characteristics about this stage. I recall a thread from a couple years back to talked about the separating desires of this stage, yet I don't recall what they are? Maybe I shall start at the beginning of this thread to see if I can find it.
Cheers,
Wendy
Quote from: Steve on Apr 06, 2010, 05:04 AM
It is important to remember that in 1st stage spiritual you will find a person who is
- feeling very small inside
- having an overall attitude of humility and devotion
- desire to SERVE and help heal
Hi Steve,
"I'm glad to hear that what I "hammered"" you with wound up being of value."
Thanks for your reply, and it was of value really even at the beginning, because I had to test it out over time to see if it was true (for me), which resulted in seeing that it actually is.
"A friend of mine with interest in astrology has recently met someone on line she doesn't know, who was born two minutes after her, same day and year, 700 miles apart in the US. They are having quite a time comparing notes. They are finding its as I said above - they have uncanny similarities, yet they each have fleshed that script out in their own unique and different, yet similar, ways. (because of the birth mileage difference there's a difference in their ascendants, which shifts the house on some planets)."
That's also an interesting case - relates a bit to the "identical twin" scenario maybe. Perhaps in those cases, where even the houses are probably almost identical too, the evolutionary stage would be sometimes the only or major point of difference? (...assuming they were different souls, not twin souls etc which would be probably be pretty low likelihood?)
blessings
Upasika
Hi Wendy
Quote from: Wendy on May 24, 2012, 07:01 PM
Can you describe more about 'feeling very small inside'...like a pebble of sand JWG talks about in Pluto book?
When I consider 1st stage spiritual from reading the descriptions, I get a sense of perfection, like a devotee of Amma Chi. Are there more characteristics about this stage. I recall a thread from a couple years back to talked about the separating desires of this stage, yet I don't recall what they are? Maybe I shall start at the beginning of this thread to see if I can find it.
The 1st stage of the Spiritual's been described as Virgo-like. The Soul has gotten itself across the line between 3rd stage individuated and stepped into 1st stage spiritual. That process has required a great deal of humbling. Based on how I heard it once described, I have this mental picture of it. The Soul has spent countless lifetimes individuating itself from the consensus. It has been a hard-fought and hard-won attainment. There have been many scars and wounds, and that Soul has reached a point of feeling it knows itself. And yet, increasingly in 3rd stage individuated there comes this sense of "there must be more than this" because all the great plans about how to reorganize society for the betterment of all are just not creating the changes the Soul was sure would happen when people saw how much better these new improvements would make things for everyone.
Any sort of major change like a shift from individuated to spiritual in general is initiated or triggered by some highly shocking or demotivating (disillusioning) experiences. Its just not working the way I thought it would. Now what?
This leads to some very deep Soul searching, where the Soul has to face it doesn't know how to do any more than what it has been doing - that is the humbling - and in a sense is brought to its knees. It sees that all of its hard-won individuality is not enough. And that is part of the resistance in early 1st stage Spiritual - it sees it has to surrender or give up what it's worked so hard to attain. Or at least it appears that way to that Soul at that time. There is inner knowing within that Soul of the direction it must head in, in order to evolve. And yet, resistance to that knowing based on the usual principle of familiarity equals security, and this change requires letting go of what has constituted security. Its the transition into that place where the outer work and behaviors have to progressively be aligned with that inner direction, and that requires having to release trying to control one's destiny - feeling I must provide for myself as no one else is going to do it, which has been the evolutionary lesson of countless lives - the truth of that. Suddenly now I am asked to let go of that and learn to trust that through following my natural inner impulses, God/Goddess somehow are going to provide for my needs (I of course have to act on the inner impulses of what I am supposed to be doing in place of spending all my time fending for my own survival - I can't just sit on the couch thinking about God, watching TV, thinking money and food are going to be left on my front porch because I am now so holy).
It is scary to make that step - we have ample practical evidence it doesn't work that way. As we gradually start taking those steps we start seeing this very principle play out in the life, that it really truly does work when one stays aligned with inner intent. Then one gets a sense of how long they have been clueless that this even existed - the principle is universal truth. The Soul through its personas just has forgotten this and has lived in other ways. That too is humbling. Awareness that one is one of 7 billion humans and billions of members of all other species on this planet, and that the planet itself, and even our whole galaxy, are microscopic in relation to the cosmos as a whole, and then we are talking only one dimension, a physical universe. Gradually one starts realizing the only thing that really makes any sense is to start living to serve the greater whole - everything else winds up feeling meaningless sooner or later. And then one sees how inconsistent one still is in their commitment to live to serve that greater whole, back and forth back and forth. And that further increases the sense of feeling very small - clueless even. And yet, as the inner commitment deepens, a feeling of deep sincerity strengthens - I may be clueless much of the time but at least I am sincere - and that counts for a lot.
One must be careful about using words like "perfection". "When I consider 1st stage spiritual from reading the descriptions, I get a sense of perfection..." There is no perfection on this planet, and its not even possible. Perfection cannot exist in a polarity reality whose basis is to evolve. The very principle of evolution is proof there is not perfection. There is nothing more to evolve to when one has reached perfection. And the principle of evolution, in every way, clearly underlies everything on this planet.
The idea of perfection is the root principle in masochism, because we compare where we are to an ideal (Pisces) of perfection, which is an IDEAL, not a reality. In relation to the ideal (perfection) we can never measure up, for not one of the 7 billion humans does. This, in a masochist, then leads to a sense of guilt, for not being perfect enough, and a need to atone for what one has done that is less than one's definition of perfect. This becomes a repeating pattern of guilt and the need to atone, and attracting in others who have guilt and rather than a need to atone for what they have done "wrong", a need to get back at, punish, those who have made them feel guilty, for they know they have done nothing wrong its all someone else's fault. Such Souls have a need to punish, and masochists have a need to atone. Part of atoning is a sense of feeling inadequate or unworthy, which often creates a subconscious need to punish oneself, which can be actualized by drawing in external people with a need to punish others, who are quite happy to fill the masochist's need to be punished. The combined attraction leads to very dysfunctional interactions and relationships.
The underlying basis of this dynamic is a belief that perfection is possible and indeed required, and a deep awareness that I am not at all perfect. Its extremely important to internalize that perfection in a body is never attainable. The standard to judge self against is not am I perfect, but am I committed to making consistent ongoing progress (and taking the necessary ongoing steps/changes), even through inevitable temporary setbacks.
First stage spiritual is NOT perfect. Neither is 3rd stage spiritual. They represent
degrees of refinement towards an ideal, the gradual exhaustion of separating desires. Realizing one is not going to be perfect in this life, while still holding an ideal to be that, is another source of increasing humility.
Steve
Hi Upasika
Quote from: Upasika on May 24, 2012, 08:24 PM
That's also an interesting case - relates a bit to the "identical twin" scenario maybe. Perhaps in those cases, where even the houses are probably almost identical too, the evolutionary stage would be sometimes the only or major point of difference? (...assuming they were different souls, not twin souls etc which would be probably be pretty low likelihood?)
Well a difference in evolutionary stage would certainly be a point of difference. But its really important to keep in mind we have a mainly invisible incredibly long past that we project into every "new" moment. And we are shaped by that past - our very conception of "me" is mainly based on our individual past, filtered through the conditions and experiences of the present lifetime. So even if the two people have a very similar evolutionary stage they're still going to breathe life into the very similar script in very different ways. We really are, every one of us, truly unique. That is simultaneously a great gift, and also the source of a lot of our human sense of aloneness.
Hi Steve,
Thanks so much for your description of 1st spiritual. As always your words reflect a wisdom so distilled and refined by experience that touches directly the Soul.
God Bless
Mirta
Hi Mirta
Quote from: mirta on May 25, 2012, 08:31 AM
Hi Steve,
Thanks so much for your description of 1st spiritual. As always your words reflect a wisdom so distilled and refined by experience that touches directly the Soul.
God Bless
Mirta
thank you
Steve
Quote from: Steve on May 24, 2012, 09:31 PM
Well a difference in evolutionary stage (of identical twins) would certainly be a point of difference. But its really important to keep in mind we have a mainly invisible incredibly long past that we project into every "new" moment. And we are shaped by that past - our very conception of "me" is mainly based on our individual past, filtered through the conditions and experiences of the present lifetime. So even if the two people have a very similar evolutionary stage they're still going to breathe life into the very similar script in very different ways...
Thanks for pointing that out Steve, I like the way you put it. In that light I suppose it couldn't be any other way, could it. I've never been involved with identical twins but if I ever had to read their charts I'd now look for those differences on the subtle and also deeper levels - I'd have a keener sense of what I was looking for, and then hopefully be able to see how exactly the same chart was working differently in each case. Thanks.
blessings
Upasika
Hi Steve,
Thanks for all your dialogue above, it was very helpful and also reminded me of some recent thoughts I have had regarding the concept of "perfection."
QuoteFirst stage spiritual is NOT perfect. Neither is 3rd stage spiritual. They represent degrees of refinement towards an ideal, the gradual exhaustion of separating desires. Realizing one is not going to be perfect in this life, while still holding an ideal to be that, is another source of increasing humility.
Through my own spiritual path and experience the ultimate nature of mind/awareness/source appears to be beyond what a human being can even label; beyond thought and language, yet inseparable from our experience of being. So if this is the case, then the very concept of what is perfect and what is not perfect becomes irrelevant since our ultimate nature is beyond this form of conceptualization. This ultimate nature as taught in EA, is represented by Neptune, which of course has an intangibility than cannot be defined. We also know through the teachings of EA that all the other archetypes are contained within Neptune/12th house, which again represents the inseparability of who we are.
I speak about this because I sometimes feel that by saying we are not perfect, we actually create a psychology of masochism within a person. Holding an ideal to become perfect, when in fact, EA teaches that source itself is not perfect, seems an impossible and fruitless task. How can striving towards an ideal of non-perfection not create a feeling of unworthiness and pointlessness? The humility comes in realizing this this but I also feel that humility is a result of knowing that we are not separate from each other, and having compassion for the human condition which strives in great pain and conflict to be that which it already is.
I have heard teachers say that we
are perfect, that there is nothing we need do but rest and recognize our true nature. I'm not saying I agree or believe this any more than the notion of non-perfection. I simply recognize in myself that I do not know. If there is no concept of perfection, then non-perfection itself is perfection. I've also struggled with the projected ideas of others that focusing on past lives/karma etc is an unnecessary indulgence to thoughts and emotions that really serve no purpose other than to keep us attached to a misguided idea of inseparability. Again, I neither agree or disagree. However, what I feel I have grasped over the last year or so is a deeper understanding of the planetary functions of Jupiter and Neptune. All of what I am writing of course is my Jupiter speaking/intuiting despite what I am trying to convey, which is my Neptune. As EA teaches, the intuition of Jupiter can be the truth, and also the distortion of the truth. The transmission of Neptune is the ultimate truth - yet we can never really
know Neptune (except for an experiential perception that cannot be defined). For me, this is where the humility comes from. My experience in resting my mind, which consequently rests my feelings, emotions, and body, gives me more access to a direct Neptunian transmission that comes via Jupiter. It feels like intuiting the next action in a way that has nothing to do with the me (ego) that is anything but pure Neptune (Source). Also, I feel that opening to Neptune in this way accelerates the exhaustion and dissolution of separating desires. This way I feel guided by Source and develop a trust that I will be provided with what I need, to do what I need to do. A pure Jupiterian intuition can be a purely egoic reaction which is not beneficial, or a result of, my ultimate nature.
What I have found helpful and liberating for myself and many people around me, is an understanding that all the archetypes that play out in our chart (Aries-Aquarius), are an inseparable part of our true nature (Source/Neptune). And since this is the case, there is nothing wrong with them! And more importantly, nothing needs to be changed or
perfected about them! As astrologers we know there is no running away from the chart, but again as EA teaches, there are beneficial ways in which the archetypes play out, and distorted ways in which they play out. This to me emphasizes the beauty with which creation evolves, and the choices we make to liberate ourselves from any belief that we are perfect or not perfect. I mention all this as a typical Pluto in the 11th house among a group of people that on some level do not see the value in EA. I of course do and am always thankful to Jeffrey from the bottom of my heart for sharing this teaching which has served as a true transmission to my soul and path in life. I share these feelings about "we are not perfect" purely because I see them as a road block to my personal understanding of our true nature, and also because it becomes a belief that is a turn off to people that could gain a great deal from EA. I feel the greatest way I can serve myself and those around me is to share EA in a way that is recognized as a path to the truth, rather than dismiss them or parts of the teaching due to clashing Jupiters :)
Peace and blessings,
Heidi
Hi Heidi
To start, its important that you (and anyone) follows the truth you know and find within yourself. As is implied in what you wrote about the nature of Neptune, all of our human truths are relative truths.
One thing I found not addressed in what you wrote is you referred much to Source (Neptune) and also somewhat to personality (Cancer), but did not mention Soul/Pluto/Scorpio/8th house at all. I happen to have Pluto in the 8th house, and so am wired to be attuned to the reality of Soul. I'm not suggesting anything you said is wrong. I am just attempting to add a few pieces to what you wrote.
The Soul is the bridge between the human and what you refer to with "Neptune". The Soul CREATES the human being, for its own evolutionary purposes, just as Neptune creates the Souls for its evolutionary purposes. That is why the focal point of everything in EA is Pluto, the Soul, and not Neptune, which is not really knowable in human form. Our work is to evolve our Souls, through the vehicle of our human natures. We CAN know our Soul, as opposed to knowing Neptune, and we are here as Steve and Heidi BECAUSE of our Souls - that is the point of our human evolutionary journey. In relation to Soul and the Soul's human journey, what I said about perfection and imperfection is quite relevant.
I have heard discussions about whether what EA calls imperfect is in the greater picture in fact perfect even though it is experienced as imperfect. I find these are discussions over the meaning of words. To me they miss the greater point that the words, limited as they must be, are trying to make. They are a metaphor. Day to day reality is very few (if any) humans are having an ongoing life they would describe as perfect. That is not debatable. And the patriarchal teachings of Divine Perfection cause many of these people to compare themselves to the unattainable patriarchal ideal of Divine Perfection vs their obvious human imperfection. As a result they judge themselves as inadequate, unworthy, less than, not good enough. And THAT is the cause of most of the masochistic patterns in people that I have encountered.
This begins with my own life history. My life changed radically after first encountering the EA perspective of God as an imperfect force seeking its own perfection. I felt more liberated and validated than I ever had in my life. And now that I am inwardly allowed to counsel others, somehow or other I attract many many people who have that issue (isn't that odd...)
Almost everyone I have ever counseled on these issues, people with a similar conditioned orientation to feeling inadequate as a result of not measuring up to the ideal they'd been taught was the goal, has felt liberation on realizing what these words about imperfection vs perfection imply in their life. Why would a perfect God create imperfect creations - what is the point? How can I be more perfect than that which created me? Many times I have seen eyes light up - "You mean I am just OK as I am?" Patterns of many lifetimes begin cracking open before our eyes. That is both my personal experience, and the experience of many people I have counseled.
I also want to say that whether you call it imperfection or perfection, its a METAPHOR, a symbol.
If we are saying the same thing but using different words and tripping over each other's definitions of words, then please, throw my metaphor out and use whatever works for you and your clients.
The metaphor's intent is to make people AWARE of the causes of their masochism, and to create a way to break those patterns. I have experienced it very effectively doing that. The last thing its intended for is to create new masochism. If using that metaphor would create additional masochism for you or your clients, for God's sake, don't use it!
Steve
Hi Upasika
QuoteI've never been involved with identical twins but if I ever had to read their charts I'd now look for those differences on the subtle and also deeper levels - I'd have a keener sense of what I was looking for, and then hopefully be able to see how exactly the same chart was working differently in each case.
Kristin Fontana has a (fraternal) twin sister. She contributed a chapter on twins to the book edited by Rose Marcus, "Insights into Evolutionary Astrology" which is very much about what you just said. She didn't say so in the book but the example charts she used are her own case. If you like, I can ask Kristin if she is willing to participate in this discussion and add her personal experience of twins charts.
Steve
Steve,
I'd love to do that. But perhaps I should get the book first and read what Kristin has already said ... it would probably give me lots of insights straight up. Have always been meaning to get the book, just when I had the spare $, which haven't had. Maybe in a couple of months I'll be better placed financially.
Also too, I've had a bit of a burst with a few posts the last couple of days, but am feeling quite spent now. Think that's about all I can do here on the MB for a while, will need to ease off and rest. I've got one last deep health process to go through till the beginning of July, then hopefully I'll be able to be more active in life again after that. So, once I've got the book and read it, if I then have some questions I'll get back to you on your offer, and we could take it from there...
Thanks lots.
blessings Upasika
Hi Steve,
Thanks for the additional input regarding the soul (Pluto), I felt as I was writing that I was not mentioning a core piece of the teaching.
You captured exactly what I was meaning to convey with the below:
Quote"You mean I am just OK as I am?"
This is the realization that I feel is most helpful, whatever words or metaphors it takes to get there :)
Blessings,
Heidi
Hi everyone,
I just read through this whole post and found it extremely helpful. So thanks to you all for participating!
I have some lingering questions in regard to those souls that are very committed to being on the "spiritual path" but are not necessarily in the spiritual state. I live in a place where being spiritual is the hip and in thing, almost to the point of spiritual snobbery. I've noticed a large amount of serial seekers that are always involved with some kind of spiritual teaching, usually non-dual. These souls seem to spend a great deal of time in intellectual debate about the teaching, the teacher, whether they agree, what is wrong with it, what is right with it, etc, etc. I'm feeling that these souls are largely individuated 3rd? I ask this because of the intellectual approach, which is obviously very Uranian. What also strikes me is that these souls appear to be doing this kind of seeking for their own growth and not for the service of others, it is like a lifestyle choice for them. Therefore, there is still an element of ego attached to their spiritualization. The part that is in constant debate appears to also be in doubt, unsure of what to trust or what is the right path for them. I feel that a soul firmly planted in spiritual 1st would experience their spirituality more from an inner emotional context, and therefore not feel the need to debate around the houses (or sound superior), and be more able to discern from an emotional and intuitive context what the right path is for them?
I am also curious about how the evolutionary states play out with the guru path. For instance, I know some souls that have been involved with a guru but once they realized the relational dysfunction among the devotees, and the aggrandizement of guru which they no longer bought into, they left. I imagine these could be individuated 3rd and possibly spiritual 1st? There are others that notice the dysfunction and stay, and this is curious to me because I see different reasons for staying. Some seem to enjoy it, like a rebellion, for instance proclaiming that they don't identify with the worship of the guru, are not dependent or vulnerable, yet perfectly at home in some way. I'm assuming this is an individuated 2nd soul? Again, I can sense a lot of heart in many of these souls but the devotional piece is clouded by an unsure ego. I know a few others that are fully aware of the dysfunction, aren't necessarily rebellious, but stay out of love and devotion because they feel that the guru somehow "saved" them. However, I still feel that in these cases the devotion is somewhat misplaced because it is not being fully recognized as coming from within, but rather projected onto a guru that in some cases has taken advantage of the devotee. Would this be individuated 3rd?
Finally, the EA teachings strongly emphasize the humility, desire to serve, and also seeking of spiritual self-improvement in spiritual 1st souls. If I am correct in my understanding, this type of soul would primarily be seeking to evolve by following their own path of service, whatever that was to them, and trusting in and being guided by their own soul. To me this could be anything and doesn't necessarily mean having a guru (which is more understood as coming from within), but at the same time it could also be about having a guru. However there would be a clear integration and recognition of the capacity in which the guru was serving the soul. Any thoughts on this piece would be appreciated since I often feel that souls are often perceived as being in the spiritual state when they are devoted to a guru, yet most of the souls I've come across that have one seem to be largely in the individuated state. I also feel that since we are moving into the Aquarian Age, the traditional guru (Leo) path may be about to phase out as more and more souls embrace equality.
Many thanks and blessings,
Heidi
Hi Heidi,
From all that you have observed and shared about those observations I feel that your estimation of these types of Souls being in the 3rd Individuated evolutionary state is exactly right. As I was reading through what you shared the memory of the Beatles came into my mind when they were off to India seeking out Maharishi, and what each as individuals then did with that. Seemed real similar to me, and each of those Souls in the Beatles was in the 3rd individuated state with John right next moving into the 1st spiritual state.
God Bless, Rad
Hi Heidi, thanks for that post -that was thought provoking for me.
Rad, was Krishnamurti third individuated?
Hi Ari,
To me he was, and at the very edge of moving fully into the 1st Spiritual Stage.
God Bless, Rad
Thanks Rad; and you're welcome Ari :)
Hello EA Friends,
Seeking to clarify the archetypal/planetary rulered of the sub-stages, within each stage. Several JWG EA astrologers and I are having a discussion about it.
It is my understanding the 1st stage spiritual is Virgo-like, 2nd stage spiritual is Leo, and 3rd stage spiritual is Piscean/Neptune. And at the same time if consensus (Saturn), individuated (Uranus) and spiritual (Neptune) are representative of each sub-stage, which of these perspectives correct?
Thank you for taking the time to reply and help me clarify.
Wendy Pallas
Hi Wendy,
I have also pondered the exact sub rulers for each stage and these are my thoughts.. Hopefully Rad will confirm and make any necessary corrections. Thanks for bringing this up!
It´s important to remember each archetype will be conditioned by the level of awareness of each stage of evolution.
It´s my understanding that Virgo correlates to Spiritual One because of the sense of humility one develops when feeling/understanding how small one is within the vastness of creation and the devotion that can arise from desiring to be of service to others within the manifest creation and also the necessary discernment, healing, purification etc as one progresses along the spiritual path to know what is true and what is illusion.
Spiritual Two correlates with Leo because of the deluded sense of importance, specialness and possibly even pointing to one´s self as the creator instead of the Source of creation and the necessary de-inflation of the ego at the end of this phase of development.
Spiritual Three correlates with Pisces/Neptune in my understanding as this is when the center of gravity of consciousness is fully rooted in the Soul with a progressive, tangible connection to the Source of creation as the Kundalini rises to the crown chakra and "stays there".
The Spiritual stage correlates with Neptune/Pisces in general as in this stage we become aware of our timelessness and begin to align with ultimate truth.
The Consensus stage in general correlates with Capricorn/Saturn as it´s defined by conditioning and conformity to an external authority.
Within this stage it makes sense to me that Taurus/Venus would correlate with consensus One because of the very limited sense of reality, mostly being focused on survival.
Virgo to me would seem to correlate with Consensus Two because in this stage of evolution Souls are mostly the workforce of the country of birth, more developed intellect than the First stage Consensus but still sustaining the pyramid of society through their services/routines.
Consensus Three Correlates to Capricorn/Saturn because of the ability to understand the way the system of one´s society works and to take advantage of it in order to play an important role within it, to run it in some way as in being a politician, C.E.O or a person with some sort of administrative role or sense of status as defined by the consensus. To me this is also because there is or can be a sense of personal responsibility at this stage and integrity or the lack of it is an important factor as to whether the Soul will be corrupt and self serving, or morally sound.
In the Individuated Stage in general one is rebelling against the conditioning of the Consensus by developing the individuality and therefore correlates in general to Aquarius/Uranus.
I have never been quite sure which archetype correlates to Individuated One.
In this stage the Soul is beginning to decondition from the consensus in general as it progressively learns its truth by becoming aware of what it´s not but, still pretends to be like the consensus in order to feel secure and still fit in, even though from an inner sense they do not really fit in, so is essentially wearing a mask. This reminds me of the Libra side of Venus which amongst other things correlates with the persona but I´m really not sure.
Individuated Two makes sense that it correlates with Uranus and Aquarius because of the full blown sense of rebellion against society in general. I think I have also seen Rad state Individuated Two correlates with Aquarius/Uranus.
Individuated Three I´m also not sure about it but to me Leo/The Sun are a possible match because of the re-integration into society in order to share our unique, special gifts or role which helps society evolve as a whole.
Rad is this correct?
All the best
Hi Skywalker and Pallas Wendy,
JWG never really said anything to my knowledge about the sub-stage rulers except for the Spiritual State which you have shared in your post. That is what he taught.
Your reasoning for the sub-stage rulers for the Consensus also make total sense to me.
The 1st stage of the Individuated state to me reflects the Gemini/ Mercury archetypes in that the Soul is desiring to seek out information for 'different' sources that reflect it's increasing sense of feeling different from the consensus stage. And, in that seeking, desiring to connect to others of like mind in various ways. And within that a kinda of Gemini duplicity in the form of trying to appear and dress 'normal', and do work that emanates from the consensus while inwardly feeling increasingly different from the consensus.
The 2nd stage Individuated is indeed pure Uranus in the form of maximum rebellion against all consensus authority and conditioning patterns of all kinds.
The 3rd Stage could correlate with Venus/Libra, remembering too Neptune in the higher octave of Venus, and the 3rd stage in evolving into the 1st stage spiritual progressively, because of the Soul's need in that stage to give back, to share, to the world, the consensus, something that it's Uranian nature has actualized something that is unique that has the capacity to transform or change something that already exists for the better, or in fact is a total 'invention' that has the same affect.
God Bless, Rad
Rad,
I actually thought of individuated one correlating to Gemini because of the duplicity you mentioned before thinking about Libra!
Your reasoning for the First stage individuated being Gemini and the Third being Libra really makes sense to me.
Thank you!
All the best
Hi Rad, Skywalker, and Wendy!
I too also thought that Gemini correlates to the 1st sub-stage Individuated.
Thanks for this discussion.
Love, Linda
Okay wow thanks everyone for your replies. I'm still a bit confused, so I'll write this out so to clarify, please correct as needed. One of the things I'd also like to clarify is that Saturn, Uranus, Neptune also correlate to each sub-stage respectively, yes?
The 3 main states of soul evolution are Consensus/Herd, Individuated and Spiritual (within each are 3 sub-stages).
First Stage Consensus/Herd State - overall correlates to Saturn
1: Capricorn - Saturn
2: Aquarius - Uranus
3: Pisces - Neptune
Second Stage Individuated State - overall correlates to Uranus
1: Gemini-Mercury
2: Aquarius - Uranus
3: Libra - Venus
Third Stage Spiritual - overall correlates to Neptune
1: Virgo - Mercury/Chiron?
2: Leo - Sun
3: Pisces - Neptune
Thank you! and nice to be here with all of you
Hi Wendy,
What Skywalker shared about the consensus is correct:
"The Consensus stage in general correlates with Capricorn/Saturn as it´s defined by conditioning and conformity to an external authority.
Within this stage it makes sense to me that Taurus/Venus would correlate with consensus One because of the very limited sense of reality, mostly being focused on survival.
Virgo to me would seem to correlate with Consensus Two because in this stage of evolution Souls are mostly the workforce of the country of birth, more developed intellect than the First stage Consensus but still sustaining the pyramid of society through their services/routines.
Consensus Three Correlates to Capricorn/Saturn because of the ability to understand the way the system of one´s society works and to take advantage of it in order to play an important role within it, to run it in some way as in being a politician, C.E.O or a person with some sort of administrative role or sense of status as defined by the consensus. To me this is also because there is or can be a sense of personal responsibility at this stage and integrity or the lack of it is an important factor as to whether the Soul will be corrupt and self serving, or morally sound."
The rest of it you have right.
God Bless, Rad
Thank you Rad.
All the Best to you