ORB Sizing

[stephen]

Hi All,

  The following orb-related information was drawn from the Archived EA Message Board.  I have a few questions about orbs (referencing this information), and so I posted those questions in the next post after this one, just in case anyone has any further information about this issue which can answer those questions.

Blessings,
Stephen


general orbs:
  conjunction   10 degrees
  opposition   10 degrees
  quincunx   5 degrees
  quintile   3 degrees
  sesquiquadrate   5 degrees
  semi-sexitile   3 degrees
  semi-square   3 degrees
  septile   2 degrees
  sextile   4 degrees
  square   10 degrees
  trine   10 degrees
[13-Jul-1999]


aspects like:
  biseptile   2 degrees
  quintile   3 degrees
  novile   2 degrees
  semi-sextile   3 degrees
  sesquiquadrate   3 degrees
  septile   2 degrees
[February 15, 2002]


  Q: About orbs:  When you say you use a ten degree orb for conjunctions, oppositions, squares and trines, do you mean ten degrees applying and ten degrees separating (totalling twenty).
  Jeffrey:  Yes.
  Q: Or do you mean five applying and five separating?
  Jeffrey:  No
  Q: This is a big difference.  Is the orb the total of the applying and separating degrees, or just one or the other?
  Jeffrey:  Both.
[April 07, 2002]


  Use an orb of ten degrees for a skipped step"¦
[February 25, 2002]


  For Transiting Nodes, use a 5 degree orb, like other transits.
[31-Jan-1999]


  Use the same orbs with planetary nodes as you do with planets.
[March 05, 2002]


  Q: Do you use the same orbs for aspects with asteroids as you do with planets?
  Jeffrey:  This is something I am still observing and correlating, and have only been dealing with the asteroids myself for maybe four or five years so have not really come to firm conclusions as the the orbs.  To this point I am seeing that maybe 5 to 6 degrees relative to major aspects seems to apply"¦
[February 19, 2002]


  The orbs simply correlate to how long a person has been working on any given issue, i.e. ten degree relative to a square would mean that this would be the first lifetime for a person to work on whatever the two planets/archetypes/dynamics are.  Conversely, for example, those same two planets could be in a 6 degree orb relative to the square, and this then suggests, in evolutionary terms, that the person has already been working on those evolutionary issues prior to the current life for at least several lifetimes.  As such it is not "˜new' to the person, there would be previous experience, and thus the orientation, and behavior, would be different than the person who had the ten degree orb.
[March 22, 2002]


  Q:  Planets that square the nodes:  Given the fact that we allow for a ten degree orb, is there any significance to the orb being towards the end of the ten degree allowance?  For instance, would the issues represented by say Uranus at 7-10 degrees be less acute for say someone with a 3-6 degree orb?  Further, since the planet is at the later degrees, would this be symbolic of a soul that has avoided the skipped step over several lifetimes?
  Jeffrey:  In those outer degrees, the correlation means that the Soul is giving itself the INITIAL opportunity to address and resolve what the skipped steps have been. As the degrees become closer to exact, this correlates to the fact that previous to those closer degrees the Soul has resisted the opportunity to resolve those skipped step issues.  Thus, the closer degrees create a condition relative to the previous resistance wherein the nature of the skipped steps become ever more intense and focused, apparent, in the individual's life with the resulting intensity therein.  So, the outer degrees correlate to the opportunity to resolve those skipped steps without the increasing compression that the resistance breeds to the necessity of resolving those skipped steps.  It is all relative because of the natural law of free will/free choice"¦
[July 16, 2001]

[stephen]

Hi Again,

  So, my questions are listed below, if anyone is able to help me with these details.

Thanks very much.

Blessings,
Stephen


1) What is the orb for the Bi-Quintile  (144/216 degrees)?
     Is it the same as the Quintile at 72 degrees?  (orb: 3 degrees)
2) What is the orb for the Tri-Septile (154/206 degrees)?
     Is it the same as the Septile at 51 25' degrees?  (orb: 2 degrees)
3) Is an 'Inconjunct' also named as a 'Quincux'...?
4) The 1999 entry states 5 degrees for the Sesquiquadrate, yet the 2002 entry states only 3 degrees.
    Does this reflect a modification (based on correlation) of this orb sizing"¦?  Or, which one is to be used?

  Thank you for any help that you can provide.

[Steve]

Hi Again,

  So, my questions are listed below, if anyone is able to help me with these details.

Thanks very much.

Blessings,
Stephen


1) What is the orb for the Bi-Quintile  (144/216 degrees)?
     Is it the same as the Quintile at 72 degrees?  (orb: 3 degrees)
2) What is the orb for the Tri-Septile (154/206 degrees)?
     Is it the same as the Septile at 51 25' degrees?  (orb: 2 degrees)
3) Is an 'Inconjunct' also named as a 'Quincux'...?
4) The 1999 entry states 5 degrees for the Sesquiquadrate, yet the 2002 entry states only 3 degrees.
    Does this reflect a modification (based on correlation) of this orb sizing"¦?  Or, which one is to be used?

  Thank you for any help that you can provide.

Hi Stepehn

The answer to 1 through 3 is "yes".

My response to 4 is, it could be a band of 3 to 5 degrees, depending on.

On what?  with all the aspects, when you are dealing with a sensitive tuned in aware Soul, these energies can start affecting that Soul even outside of those guidelines - feeling a Pluto transit with a 12 degree orb, for example.  Its an individual, case by case scenario.  So some people would feel and be affected by sesquiquad at 3, others at 4, others at 5. 

None of those numbers are cast in stone and the only true answer.  They were given as guidelines.  The context around those numbers in the message board transcript was Jeffrey saying each astrologer had to determine for themselves what those orbs were, for them.  And newer people saying they didn't have the experience to determine those yet.  So Jeffrey posted those lists, of what he used, as guidelines, not as literal truth.  Every case is unique.  Another, for example, might not really affected by a Pluto square until an 8 degree orb had been reached.

[stephen]

Hi Stepehn

The answer to 1 through 3 is "yes".

My response to 4 is, it could be a band of 3 to 5 degrees, depending on.

On what?  with all the aspects, when you are dealing with a sensitive tuned in aware Soul, these energies can start affecting that Soul even outside of those guidelines - feeling a Pluto transit with a 12 degree orb, for example.  Its an individual, case by case scenario.  So some people would feel and be affected by sesquiquad at 3, others at 4, others at 5.  

None of those numbers are cast in stone and the only true answer.  They were given as guidelines.  The context around those numbers in the message board transcript was Jeffrey saying each astrologer had to determine for themselves what those orbs were, for them.  And newer people saying they didn't have the experience to determine those yet.  So Jeffrey posted those lists, of what he used, as guidelines, not as literal truth.  Every case is unique.  Another, for example, might not really affected by a Pluto square until an 8 degree orb had been reached.

Steve,

 Thanks for taking the time to answer this question.
 Another excellant (and clarifying!) answer from you, pointing me in the right direction down the EA Path.  Your 'caution' is well-received: I am often very rigid and limiting with myself, and easily fall into the pattern of 'casting into stone.'  (Saturn on the South Node?)

 Over my vacation, I was studying the EA Paradigm, and generated some questions for myself.  So, under the "the only dumb question is the one which goes unasked" rule, I decided to ask the questions, as I come upon them again while reviewing my notes.

Thanks again,
and Blessings,
Stephen

[ari moshe]

The orbs simply correlate to how long a person has been working on any given issue, i.e. ten degree relative to a square would mean that this would be the first lifetime for a person to work on whatever the two planets/archetypes/dynamics are.  Conversely, for example, those same two planets could be in a 6 degree orb relative to the square, and this then suggests, in evolutionary terms, that the person has already been working on those evolutionary issues prior to the current life for at least several lifetimes.  As such it is not "˜new' to the person, there would be previous experience, and thus the orientation, and behavior, would be different than the person who had the ten degree orb.

the tighter the orb, the greater the intensity of that planetary relationship. that makes sense to me. however, why does he equate orb tightness to "how long the person has been working on any given issue"? that seems like a statement for the phasal relationship between two planets, not the orb between them.

[Steve]

the tighter the orb, the greater the intensity of that planetary relationship. that makes sense to me. however, why does he equate orb tightness to "how long the person has been working on any given issue"? that seems like a statement for the phasal relationship between two planets, not the orb between them.

They are basically the same thing, Ari.  Phases mark the progression of the passage through a cycle.  Aspects are the gateways, like revolving doors, that transition us between one part of the cycle and the next.   Remember the root issue is resistance, the human tendency to want to stay with what is safe and known.  The stressful aspects force us to embrace change.  We resist change, until we finally accept its necessity and move ahead - that is like going around and around in the revolving door until we make the decision to leave the safety of the doors and go out the door that leads to the next part of the journey.   The revolving door is the aspect.  The resolution is making the choice to exit the revolving door.  That resolution could occur BEFORE the aspect, at the exact aspect, or after the exact aspect, depending on the person's relationship with self and their willingness to embrace the change.  As the orb gets tighter, the issues become more conscious, the person is less able to ignore or repress them, thus stress/fear can be at a peak.  Thus, as you put it, the intensity increases.  That is why it increases.  The change is going to happen, ready or not, willing or not.

Part of "how long the person has been working on any given issue" is that when looking at outer planet aspects like Mars-Pluto, a soul may require more than one lifetime to progress through ONE, as example, crescent/first quarter Mars/Pluto square - 20 degrees.  Thus, "how long the person has been working on the issue".  Again resisting necessary changes is the underlying issue

Aspects occur WITHIN phases - they are the transition points, mile-markers along the journey through the phases.  You can't separate them from phases.

[stephen]

They are basically the same thing...

Steve,

  Thanks Steve.  Very clear and helpful.
And thanks very much for that question Ari, which prompted that response. 

  I have to say again...that this Message Board is such a great resource!

Blessings to All,
Stephen

[ari moshe]

thank you steve, that was very helpful.

Part of "how long the person has been working on any given issue" is that when looking at outer planet aspects like Mars-Pluto, a soul may require more than one lifetime to progress through ONE, as example, crescent/first quarter Mars/Pluto square - 20 degrees.  Thus, "how long the person has been working on the issue".  Again resisting necessary changes is the underlying issue

does the phasal relationship neccesarily have to reach the point of a square at all for the intentions of a mars pluto first quarter square to be worked out by a soul. i ask this for any aspect- i have a balsamic phase mars pluto- with an elongation of 23 degrees. does this mean the completion of the phase can only be worked out when i reach the conjunction stage in a future life, or within my free will I can complete the cycle w/out any conjunction?

also, are you saying 20 degrees= first quarter square??

[Steve]

Hi Ari

does the phasal relationship necessarily have to reach the point of a square at all for the intentions of a mars pluto first quarter square to be worked out by a soul. i ask this for any aspect- i have a balsamic phase mars pluto- with an elongation of 23 degrees. does this mean the completion of the phase can only be worked out when i reach the conjunction stage in a future life, or within my free will I can complete the cycle w/out any conjunction?

Well, my perspective is, there are natural archetypes and timings in life.  I sometimes tell "create your own reality" advocates, let me see you grow tomatoes outdoors in Seattle in December. 

There are certain issues that can only reach culmination with the approach of aspects - natural timings.  That's why there ARE aspects in the first place.  In 3 dimensional dualistic reality the Soul's evolutionary intentions play out over TIME.  Time = Saturn (and there is some of the significance of Saturn returns - passage into a new archetypal stage). 

What we can do with our free will is learn to COOPERATE with, work with, rather than resist, the evolutionary process.  In that way we can speed up evolution. If the impulse to evolve is a wave, we can't make a wave come to shore any sooner than its going to come.  What we can do is, when the wave comes in, ride it as far as we can, vs. consciously resisting the wave, trying to hold back from its intents.  Through developing inner resolve to let go, and go through whatever that wave is asking us to embrace, we can make maximum benefit of the natural timing of that wave.   In that way we are speeding up evolution, through riding that wave as far as we can.  As opposed to the majority who, when change appears, want it to be over, to get back to "normal" (i.e. old familiar ways) ASAP.  As we realize we can NEVER get back to the old, it is dead and gone, and that true security is just to ride the wave, then we are taking maximum advantage of the evolutionary timing cycles, which means maximizing evolution.   

Keep that bit about tomatoes in mind.  That metaphor extends, because if I don't plant the tomatoes in the spring and tend to them in spring and summer, there will not be much of a tomato crop.  We tend those plants on faith - there is no guarantee we will ever see tomatoes. We put in the effort anyway because we feel the potential of fruition is worth the risk it might not happen. 

Its like that - you can put in the necessary effort BEFORE the aspect backs you into the corner and makes you put in the effort.  Then the transition doesn't have to be catastrophic.  But you are still not going to see tomatos until tomato ripening season.  You can speed it up a bit with some plastic, but you are still not going to have tomatoes in December.  The natural process us subject to natural law.  Aspects are manifestations of natural law, natural timing.

also, are you saying 20 degrees= first quarter square??

No.  The typical orb given to a square is 20 degrees.  For 1st quarter square, it starts at 80 degrees and ends at 100 degrees.   Between 80 and 90 degrees leads to culmination of the old - as you move closer to exact aspect, you are having balsamic-like issues - culmination.  Although we are talking about a 1st quarter square, even within that experience - 1st Q square, it begins with the end of the old, the known - which is the nature of balsamic.  As it reaches 90 degrees, then we start having a new phase-like flavor - Aries - instinctual.  We are in something new, not known, we don't consciously know how to do it.  Thus we fly by gut instinct - New, Aries.   As the aspect moves closer to 100 degrees we have been working with it long enough that its new reality has established itself - we no longer feel we are flying blind.  Have begun integrating the changes into our sense of self-identity, who I see myself as.  Then it is no longer new and we are on our way towards the next transition point (aspect)

That's why the most profound aspects tend to be conjunction, square, opposition.  These represent the 90 degree turning points.  Equate it to the seasons in a 12 month solar cycle.  We are well aware each season requires an inward adjustment within ourselves, which takes time to acclimate.  It is exactly like that.   
That is why Jeffrey gave the sesqui-quad and semi-square a lot of weight, because they are the midpoints of a square - 45 degrees.  They correlate to the biquadrant points - 15 degrees of the fixed signs, Taurus Leo Scorpio Aquarius.  Think of it - the middle of fixed signs, where resistance would tend to be at its peak.  At that point the phase shifts from a yang phase to a yin phase, forcing us to go within and assimilate what has been experienced in the yang phase that preceded.  The aspects within those phases mark the key turning points.
These are the archetypes of a cycle, repeated endlessly in life, from the microscopic to the galactic.

[ari moshe]

beautiful tomato analogy!
thank you steve

[Wendy]

Hi Steve,

I searched the forum for topics relating to skipped steps and found this thread about orbs.  I am still integrating/remembering the phasal qualities of aspects and have enjoyed reading through the thread.  As I did a few questions came to mind.  Please be patient with my questions, attempting to integrate this.

No.  The typical orb given to a square is 20 degrees.  For 1st quarter square, it starts at 80 degrees and ends at 100 degrees.  

Between 80 and 90 degrees leads to culmination of the old - as you move closer to exact aspect, you are having balsamic-like issues - culmination.  

Here I'm trying to understand...if the orb of a square is between 80-90 why would the phase be balsamic.  A square is made up from the new phase and the crescent phase (initiation and internalization of prior phase), which leads to the first quarter square, right?  So how is 80-90 balsamic?

Although we are talking about a 1st quarter square, even within that experience - 1st Q square, it begins with the end of the old, the known - which is the nature of balsamic.  

Is this the answer? I think I understand.  Is it the completion of the aspect, then moving into the next one?

As it reaches 90 degrees, then we start having a new phase-like flavor - Aries - instinctual.  We are in something new, not known, we don't consciously know how to do it.  Thus we fly by gut instinct - New, Aries.   As the aspect moves closer to 100 degrees we have been working with it long enough that its new reality has established itself - we no longer feel we are flying blind.  Have begun integrating the changes into our sense of self-identity, who I see myself as.  Then it is no longer new and we are on our way towards the next transition point (aspect).  

Okay, so if there is a square between Mars 23 Libra and Moon 24 Capricorn, the phase is still instinctual, new phase or is it moving into first quarter leading eventually to (I'm confused here I think)?  Does this have something to do with the essence of all the phases being within the aspected planets?

If the aspect was 28 or even 29 Libra square 24 Capricorn, the phase would be more conscious, balsamic?  The challenge the square brings up would be less stressful because the soul would be more conscious of the implications of the conflict the square brings?

That's why the most profound aspects tend to be conjunction, square, opposition.  These represent the 90 degree turning points.  Equate it to the seasons in a 12 month solar cycle.  We are well aware each season requires an inward adjustment within ourselves, which takes time to acclimate.  It is exactly like that.  
That is why Jeffrey gave the sesqui-quad and semi-square a lot of weight, because they are the midpoints of a square - 45 degrees.  They correlate to the biquadrant points - 15 degrees of the fixed signs, Taurus Leo Scorpio Aquarius.  Think of it - the middle of fixed signs, where resistance would tend to be at its peak.  At that point the phase shifts from a yang phase to a yin phase, forcing us to go within and assimilate what has been experienced in the yang phase that preceded.  The aspects within those phases mark the key turning points.
These are the archetypes of a cycle, repeated endlessly in life, from the microscopic to the galactic.

Hope my questions make sense.

Blessings and thank you,
Wendy

[Steve]

hi Wendy

When a square is between 80 and 90 degrees (prior to the exact square) the event of the square has not yet occurred.  We sense change is coming.  Most humans tend to resist change, because the effects of change are unknown and our sense of security comes from doing what we know.  Yet we sense that what we know is coming to some sort of change.  Thus an ending of reality as we have known it.  Thus, typically, an unconscious resistance to the impending change.

All of those qualities, the hesitation towards what we know or feel is coming, are balsamic-like qualities.  Endings, the need to complete what is unfinished.  

When the square is 90 - 100 degrees, the actual conjunction has now occurred.  If we have been resisting we find ourselves dragged into something new, like it or not.  The nature of new is it is unknown.  We can feel insecure or uncertain on how to proceed.  We find that what we have learned no longer applies in quite the same ways that we are used to.  We have to operate a bit from instinct because we don't know how else to operate.

All of those qualities, the sense we are in something new that we don't yet know how to navigate, are new phase-like qualities.

When I say balsamic-like and new phase-like, it is more like the aspect contains the  flavor of those things rather than being those things.  Life consists of thousands of endings (deaths) and beginnings (births) repeated over and over.  And every one of those death - rebirths (death-rebirth is a core archetype of Pluto) is a mini experience of a culmination (balsamic) and beginning (new phase).  When one is having an actual balsamic phase or new phase, those archetypes of endings and beginnings are heightened - at their extreme.  But every moment in life contains tiny versions of those archetypes.

Does this help you to better understand what I meant?
Steve

[Wendy]

Thank you Steve.  Yes your response helps a great deal in my understanding.

Blessed Be,
Wendy

[ari moshe]

Hi Steve,

I've been thinking about the qualitative difference between an aspect that is at the end of a phase vs one that is in the beginning of a phase. Thinking about my own chart and some ppl who I know well, I observe what happens in our life and I wonder if certain realities are expressions of the particular phases I see in our charts. And the truth is, I'm not sure. I understand this is just something that I'll become more attuned to as I work with more charts.

I was wondering if we could do a concrete example of a chart that has a very distinct (evolutionarily speaking) either new-type phase aspect or balsamic-type phase aspect, and discuss what actual circumstances have been manifest in that life as a reflection of that phase?
Thank you,
Ari Moshe

[Steve]

Hi Ari

That sounds fine.  I suggest we work with planets that are going to obvious, like Pluto, Mars, Moon.  Or perhaps Sun/Moon.

Again, we have to remember that the planetary phases play out against the backdrop of the evolutionary signature - Pluto, Nodes, ruler. 
Steve