How much can we actually offer with no birth time?

[Dhyana]

I have a client that definately cannot obtain a birth time.

I look at a 12 noon chart just for the sake of looking at a chart, and I know at least what  sign Pluto, Uranus, Neptune, Jupiter, Sun and probably moon and nodes are in (but maybe not moon and nodes if time was very early in am or very late at night), and some aspects.

So how much can i offer this person realistically?

Are the aspects those outer planets are making going to be the same no matter what time?

Because I can certainly offer that information, yes?

And I can certainly describe the Pluto and PPP, yes?

And would  I be correct in saying that the Moon and Nodes my vary too much to go into that?
--------
Looking for some suggestions about what I actually can realistically describe when no birth time is going to be available (and also without going into any kind of time ressurrection process by asking the Pluto questions etc -bc i am not experienced enough for that yet)?

Thanks for anyones input to what i might offer briefly to this person, and answers to the questions i wrote above,

dhyana

[Dhyana]

And what about Venus and Mars --will the SIGN be the same for those planets, no matter the time?

[Dhyana]

Has anyone here on this mb ever done a reading for a person without a time? If so, might you share a little with me how you did it and how that went for you (and the client)?

Thanks Again
D

[Steve]

Hi Dhyana

What you do when the birth time is unknown is rectify the chart.  That means to back into the birth time through various methods.  Typically this is done through finding out what and when have been the major events in the life and using various astrological timing techniques to position the ascendant.  You can search Google for rectify birth chart to get info on some of the traditional techniques.

Jeffrey taught a different technique, which is to determine which house the natal Pluto is in.  He prepared a series of questions you ask the client to determine which house they feel is their bottom line (Pluto is the bottom line).

The way I do this is I've observed often people can't narrow it to one since they identify with several house attributes, since they have a nodal axis, perhaps a stelium in a house/sign, etc.  So I ask them to determine which one(s) they identify with the most, and then ask them, of those selected, which one feels like the real bottom line, the underlying cause (Pluto) that the others then sit on top of.  Usually they can come up with one bottom line house.   Then I construct a chart with Pluto in that house on the birth date.  That narrows your birth time down to a two hour period (12 houses, 24 hours in a day).  Then I move the time around to see what planets shift from house to house, trying to get something closer within the 2 hour period.  This requires asking questions - if the moon is either in the 4th or 5th house, I'd ask Moon/Cancer-like questions to see if they feel more Leo like (Special, pyramid reality) or Cancer - insecure/watery emotional.

Here are the questions:

Questions to ask to rectify chart by Pluto house

Pluto in HOUSE 1. Do you feel you have a special destiny to achieve, meaning something out of the ordinary? The related question, do you have an inner resistance to completing yourself in relationship? (Why? There has been a whole prior life background of essential independence.)  There are other questions you could ask. You could ask the polarity point questions.

Pluto in HOUSE 2. Do you feel that you are fundamentally self contained. Do you feel that you are fundamentally able to identify and meet your own needs?

Pluto in HOUSE 3. Do you feel that you have a fundamental curiosity to understand the nature of life, that curiosity primarily manifesting at an intellectual level? As an example, do you feel you have a compulsion to read many, many books, and yet your tendency being to read three or four pages in each book and not the whole book? Do you feel that your mind is simply a roller coaster brain of competing perspectives, the roller coaster or roll x-carts generating competing perspectives. The polarity point question would be, do you feel that you are trying to find that one philosophical system that puts it all together for you?

Pluto in HOUSE 4. Do you feel that you are born with fundamental insecurity at a compulsive level? Do you feel that you had parents that were unable to understand the nature of your emotional needs, and therefore the nature of nurturing accordingly? Do you feel that you have a problem identifying with traditional gender role assignment? Do you feel in your intimate relationships that at times you have problems with what we can call pathological jealousy that is quite different than normal jealousy. Pathological jealousy is demonstrated in O.J. Simpson, meaning a person that can never let go.

Pluto in HOUSE 5. Do you feel that you are the center of your own universe? Do you
unconsciously expect all things to revolve around you? Do you feel you have a bottomless pit in terms of the need to receive positive feedback for whatever your efforts may be?

Pluto in HOUSE 6. Do you feel that you have a problem with a core feeling of fundamental inadequacy? An inner feeling that you are not good enough to do what your higher mind suggests is possible to do? This becomes the basis of compulsive excuse-making, which sounds like rational reasons. Do you feel you have a problem with priority confusions? Do you feel you have a compulsion to make crisis out of thin air? Do you feel the emphasis in your consciousness is left brain analytical thought processes? Do you feel that you are plagued by personal doubt? Do you feel that you are your own worst enemy?

Pluto in HOUSE 7. Do you have a compulsive need to be needed? Do you feel you have a lesson in terms of learning when to give and when not to give, and more importantly, how to receive? Do you feel you have problems in codependency in relationship? Do you feel you have problems in projection in relationship (either one or both partners compulsively projecting their subjective reality on one another)?

Pluto in HOUSE 8. Do you feel you are born with fundamental emotional fears of betrayal, emotional fears of loss, emotional fears of abandonment, impacting on your ability to trust? Do you feel that you crawled out of the womb asking why, i.e. do you feel that you psychoanalyze yourself to the point of tears, and psychoanalyze everyone else to the point of tears? Do you feel that you are an inherently suspicious person? Do you feel that you have an awareness of larger forces in the universe that you cannot control?

Pluto in HOUSE 9. Do you feel that you have been asking giant questions for lifetimes, why life, why death, how do I fit into the cosmos? Do you have an element in your consciousness that just knows what it knows without knowing how it knows it? Meaning, do you feel the strength of your Soul is intuitive? Are you born with a fundamental restlessness? For an individuated or spiritual person the question becomes, do you feel that you have a core alienation from society? Do you feel that you have a need to understand yourself in cosmological terms?

Pluto in HOUSE 10. Do you feel that you are born with a core sense of guilt that you can no longer define? Do you feel that you have a tremendous standard of inner judgment, which equals becoming your own worst enemy? Do you feel you have a fundamental fear of losing control? Do you have a need to be recognized by society? A related question in the individuated and spiritual state. Are you having problems in gender assignment (consensusly defined)? Was there a power problem with one or both parents?

Pluto in HOUSE 11. Were you born with a fundamental feeling of being inherently different than most other people? A related question, not knowing quite where to fit, in society's terms? Do you feel you are born with an inherent capacity to innovate? Do you feel you are born with major lessons in terms of who is a friend and who is not? Do you have a consciousness that is naturally constructed to promote social orders that are more equitable for all concerned, meaning natural humanitarian? That will exist even in the consensus state. Lyndon Johnson had an 11th house Pluto, Bill Clinton has an 11th house Pluto.

Pluto in HOUSE 12. Fundamental question, is your deepest fear falling into the great, great inner abyss? Do you feel you are born with a core of ideals that are continually frustrated? Were you born with no clear sense of boundaries between where you start and something else starts around you? Do you have a fundamental fear of going crazy or insane? Do you have an inner feeling of being in a prison, in which there is no way out?

[Dhyana]

Thanks so much for putting all of that together Steve! I have SAVED IT on my computer (hope that's ok?) I will surely use that information a lot!

But as I said in my question above , I dont feel like I have enough experience yet to use the Pluto q's of rectifying without getting confused. But I will try it out.

In the meantime, would there be anything at all I might offer the person from an EA perspective, without a birth time?

And I still am curious about those questions I wrote above simply because it would help my "astrology basics" understanding, even if it is not useful with this query.

Thanks
Dhyana

[Steve]

and speaking of "underlying cause" (Pluto) --is Pluto also the underlying cause of the SOUTH NODE or is the SN the underlying cause of Pluto? I still havent grokked that yet?

Pluto represents the Soul.  The Soul is the underlying cause of EVERYTHING related to a human being, including its past, that past represented astrologically by the South Node.

[Elen]

Hi Steve,

Just wondering if rectifying is possible when the signs are reversed, ie, Libra in House 1, etc....  Seems like things would get pretty confusing.  (This is the situation with my chart...).  Also, I was curious as to what I would relate to.  My Pluto is in H12 (in Virgo).  The questions that felt like they MOST resonated to me were the H11 questions (Saturn in Aq, which is ruled by Pluto/Uranus; also, 11th house is empty leg of t-square and is itself empty).  The H12 ones are true, but they didn't feel "bottom line" to me.   So my question is, is it possible that what you relate to changes over time?  And thus that the rectified chart you get in the moment, whether it is factually true or not, is absolutely relevant and useful for that moment.  Certainly I have related to H12 questions quite strongly in the past, though I'm not sure I would have ever thought of them as fundamental. Perhaps this is a Piscean confusion thing?  Also, 2nd on my list would have been, I think, H4 - stellium and SN.  Not meaning to cast doubt on this process.  Just really curious about it.  I am assuming that astrologers have good success using the rectificatation process in the sense of being able to give good insight for a given client....

Ellen

[Dhyana]

But as I said in my question above , I dont feel like I have enough experience yet to use the Pluto q's of rectifying without getting confused. But I will try it out.

AH HA!  i just realized that this was my unconscious(previously) Pluto in Virgo talking!

no wonder steve didnt respond to that part!

thank you steve!

[Wendy]

Hi Steve,

Just wondering if rectifying is possible when the signs are reversed, ie, Libra in House 1, etc....  Seems like things would get pretty confusing.  (This is the situation with my chart...).  Also, I was curious as to what I would relate to.  My Pluto is in H12 (in Virgo).  The questions that felt like they MOST resonated to me were the H11 questions (Saturn in Aq, which is ruled by Pluto/Uranus; also, 11th house is empty leg of t-square and is itself empty).  The H12 ones are true, but they didn't feel "bottom line" to me.   So my question is, is it possible that what you relate to changes over time?  
Ellen

Interesting questions, I too identified more with the 5th house questions and my natal Pluto is in the 4th house.  I don't feel the jealously that correlates to Simpson and I never felt that I was born with a fundamental insecurity, especially when I was young.  I mostly felt an underlying insecurity with my mother because she was not present, but I would never have described it as that, otherwise I thought everything was okay for a long time until Saturn conjuncted the bottom of my chart.

Food for thought....

[Elen]

Hi Wendy,

Thanks for your thoughts.  It will be interesting to see how Steve responds....

Peace,
Ellen

PS Thanks so much in general for all your posts.  I always enjoy and learn from them.

[ari moshe]

Hi all,
I thought it would be helpful if I shared my thoughts here,

I've been following the advice given by Steven Forrest on his site, which is a mostly linear left brain approach- though it takes great time and effort. It does works really well. I have never tried JWG's approach that Steve shared.
http://www.forrestastrology.com/General-Astrology/the-craft-of-chart-rectification

In the meantime, would there be anything at all I might offer the person from an EA perspective, without a birth time?

I have found that the answer is definitely yes. Just knowing the sign of the sn and the sign of its ruler already says a lot- and aspects will indicate further information. The key is to only say what is certain, not to make up a story. The signs correlate to the specific domains of consciousness that have been at play in a soul's evolutionary journey, an the activity in each sign is facilitated by the ruler of that sign. I find that simple, short and meaningful readings are possible. And if the client has questions or is seeking clarity on anything, often even w/out birth time I can provide valuable perspective.
Ari Moshe

[Steve]

Wendy

I never felt that I was born with a fundamental insecurity, especially when I was young.  I mostly felt an underlying insecurity with my mother because she was not present, but I would never have described it as that, otherwise I thought everything was okay for a long time until Saturn conjuncted the bottom of my chart.

The point is, Pluto is our bottom line, of which we are often unconscious.  That is what you just described - you thought your reality was different than it turned out it had been all along prior to a Saturn transit.  That is why its sometimes difficult to get a client to accurately use this method, because many people just don't know themselves very well as they actually are.  Part of our work is to guide them through that process by asking pointed questions.  As far as the OJ Simpson part, I've taken that out of the questions I present clients with, for the reasons you stated.  I decided to post Jeffrey's original questions here rather than the slightly modified ones I send.


Ellen

Just wondering if rectifying is possible when the signs are reversed, ie, Libra in House 1, etc....

yes, there is always a bottom line in all Souls.

Seems like things would get pretty confusing.  (This is the situation with my chart...).  Also, I was curious as to what I would relate to.  My Pluto is in H12 (in Virgo).  The questions that felt like they MOST resonated to me were the H11 questions (Saturn in Aq, which is ruled by Pluto/Uranus; also, 11th house is empty leg of t-square and is itself empty).  The H12 ones are true, but they didn't feel "bottom line" to me.   So my question is, is it possible that what you relate to changes over time?  And thus that the rectified chart you get in the moment, whether it is factually true or not, is absolutely relevant and useful for that moment.  Certainly I have related to H12 questions quite strongly in the past, though I'm not sure I would have ever thought of them as fundamental. Perhaps this is a Piscean confusion thing?  Also, 2nd on my list would have been, I think, H4 - stellium and SN.  Not meaning to cast doubt on this process.  Just really curious about it.  I am assuming that astrologers have good success using the rectificatation process in the sense of being able to give good insight for a given client....

The biggest issue I have run into using this technique is many people do not look at themselves really deeply, nor have they ever sat down and concluded what their bottom line is.  So the archetypes from the list they relate to are all sort of swirling around inside of them without any sense of a bottom to top order.  Very few people are conscious of their Soul.  Thus many relate more to personality qualities (south node, moon, a sign or house with a number of planets in it) without realizing there is a bottom line beneath the ones they are relating to.

The Soul is the bottom line, the CAUSE behind all the other qualities one relates to.  Its the thing that puts all the other qualities in perspective.  It is the reason we are attracted to those qualities rather than others.

No, that Soul bottom line is not going to change as life goes on.  However, it does EVOLVE.  Ellen, your attraction to 11th house indicates you've been focused on working the individuation process.  The 12th house (Pluto) explains WHY you've felt the need to individuate.  That why is BENEATH the process of the individuating.  Before one can successfully use the technique one has to become pretty aware of how they are put together, and why.  You could use this technique on yourself to help clarify just that.  Remember, Pluto also represents resistance to evolutionary intentions.  This could explain not being attracted to those archetypes.  I found once I began understanding myself more deeply it became easier to guide clients in the process of using this technique to determine their bottom line.  Many people will have trouble understanding what "the bottom line" means, in picking the one that is the underlying cause.

This relates to the Pluto evolutionary signature, where we say that Pluto actualizes itself through the south node.  The south node is of the moon, moon is conscious, moon is self-image.  We are aware of our self-image, thus may identify with those qualities.  Pluto is mostly unconscious, the underlying desires that led to developing the human personality/self-image.  Pluto is the yearnings within the Soul.  Those yearnings lead to the personality structure, thus are the underlying cause of that personality structure.  That is the bottom line.

I've found this technique quite effective once I learned how to help a client determine their bottom line.

[Elen]

Hi Steve,

Thanks.  I get what you're saying about the bottom line vs. the other parts of us that are the result of the bottom line (Pluto/Soul). INTELLECTUALLY, I get this. I DO relate to the 12th house description, but it simply seemed less compelling, which is interesting.  Would you be able to post your questions - the ones you use to really help a person hone in on their bottom line.  I'm not asking this for personal help, but to better understand this difference and this process - to see how you (one) actually helps a client get to this bottom line.  Of course I will consider this in relation to me (as well as with others), but it is for the purpose of learning...  I understand if you'd rather not.  Perhaps because I have 12th house Pluto, I find the whole thing especially murky.

Thanks a million Steve - for sticking with me.

Peace,
Ellen

[Steve]

Hi Ellen

Well, my questions for house 12 are exactly the same as the ones I posted yesterday.  All I'd done is make the questions on a few of the houses a bit less intense.  No change on house 12 so I'm not going to post them again.

For myself, my core imprints on house 12 are from Pluto through the houses, where the person is standing on an precipice, like a sharp mountain top.  They look out one way and see the ocean of life.  They have a deep sense to jump into it, but they don't because they fear if they do they will die.   Then they look the other way and there is the world.   The world seems like a dream.  They see that most everyone takes it seriously.  They try to take it seriously but they still see it as a dream.  Eventually they may get involved in the world, make things happen, etc.  But it still feels like a dream, even when they are having success within it.  Some can/will buy into the dream, pretend to themselves the dream is real, where they forget they even feel it is a dream.  None the less it is a dream to them.  And they get frozen, petrified, standing on top of that mountain, possibly for a number of lifetimes, afraid to go either direction.    Thus the fears of going crazy - not knowing what to do.  Few people see reality as what these people see reality as. 

When you get to the high individuated stages, the cusp of crossing into 1st spiritual, into 1st stage spiritual, the inner work is about validating the person's inner reality, no matter how odd or crazy it feels to anyone else.  In your case that would be attraction to the 11th house - the individuating, the validating your own reality, the growing experience that you can release all the guilt pain shame you have felt for a long time, that most of it never had any validity in the 1st place.  You discover this by more and more embracing what simply feels right and natural for you to do, no matter what anyone's opinion about it is - those are 11th house functions.  But the underlying cause, the reason why it needs to be done - is to break the impasse of standing on the 12th house precipice.  You may have to meditate, contemplate, to really grasp the validity of that image of being frozen on a precipice.  (It is also quite possible that by your current age you have done a lot of work on that issue.  So you may not feel like that any longer, consciously.  In that case go back to how you felt when you were younger, before you knew to do the work, and see if at that point that visual fits how you spent a lot of your time, bottom line.)   It would not be especially pleasant to be standing there, so the tendency to no longer identify with it could be strong. 

If you can find places in yourself where you can connect with these parts of yourself it will be a good experience.  Because you will learn from that the symbology of how some of your clients will also disconnect from their core bottom line, and why.  And you can help them reconnect with it, from your experience of the process you've gone through to do that in your own life.
Steve

[Dhyana]

Hi Ellen

Well, my questions for house 12 are exactly the same as the ones I posted yesterday.  All I'd done is make the questions on a few of the houses a bit less intense.  No change on house 12 so I'm not going to post them again.

For myself, my core imprints on house 12 are from Pluto through the houses, where the person is standing on an precipice, like a sharp mountain top.  They look out one way and see the ocean of life.  They have a deep sense to jump into it, but they don't because they fear if they do they will die.   Then they look the other way and there is the world.   The world seems like a dream.  They see that most everyone takes it seriously.  They try to take it seriously but they still see it as a dream.  Eventually they may get involved in the world, make things happen, etc.  But it still feels like a dream, even when they are having success within it.  Some can/will buy into the dream, pretend to themselves the dream is real, where they forget they even feel it is a dream.  None the less it is a dream to them.  And they get frozen, petrified, standing on top of that mountain, possibly for a number of lifetimes, afraid to go either direction.    Thus the fears of going crazy - not knowing what to do.  Few people see reality as what these people see reality as. 

When you get to the high individuated stages, the cusp of crossing into 1st spiritual, into 1st stage spiritual, the inner work is about validating the person's inner reality, no matter how odd or crazy it feels to anyone else.  In your case that would be attraction to the 11th house - the individuating, the validating your own reality, the growing experience that you can release all the guilt pain shame you have felt for a long time, that most of it never had any validity in the 1st place.  You discover this by more and more embracing what simply feels right and natural for you to do, no matter what anyone's opinion about it is - those are 11th house functions.  But the underlying cause, the reason why it needs to be done - is to break the impasse of standing on the 12th house precipice.  You may have to meditate, contemplate, to really grasp the validity of that image of being frozen on a precipice.  (It is also quite possible that by your current age you have done a lot of work on that issue.  So you may not feel like that any longer, consciously.  In that case go back to how you felt when you were younger, before you knew to do the work, and see if at that point that visual fits how you spent a lot of your time, bottom line.)   It would not be especially pleasant to be standing there, so the tendency to no longer identify with it could be strong. 

If you can find places in yourself where you can connect with these parts of yourself it will be a good experience.  Because you will learn from that the symbology of how some of your clients will also disconnect from their core bottom line, and why.  And you can help them reconnect with it, from your experience of the process you've gone through to do that in your own life.
Steve

Hi Steve,
When I read this description above, I totally resonated with it as well.  Just wondering what other chart signatures may produce this exact same sense you described above other than a 12th House Pluto?
Dhayna