Questions about Second Stage Spiritual

[Gonzalo]

Hi Ari

Thank you for your kind reply and for adding more info about what is being said about Nythyananda ... personally I am not sure what to believe yet, because I think perhaps part of what is said in the web may be false, or distorted, or exaggerated ... his followers violent reaction against his persona suggests that they are turning against him but also that they are going against his teachings, ie. against their own inner realizations, perhaps "¦ I found a video where he does not deny anything, but rather claims he has not done anything illegal "¦ somewhere else he just claims he has not harmed anybody with his deeds"¦ the modesty of this defence calls my attention "¦ of course I think your intuition may be right and also that is possible that he is aggrandized at ego level ... though you said before that this guy speaks just like you or your friends do "¦ so perhaps he does not "act" as being superior ?

Further, I found the following reference to his birth time: "Sri Nithyananda, could you please include the exact time of your birth? We're a bit confused. In your book, The Formless in Form, page 5, you wrote that you were born on 12:32 a.m., January 1, 1978. But in your other book, Glimpses of My Master, Nithyananda, first 'first' (original) edition December 2005 on pages 87-91 that you were born on January 1, 1978 at 0:30 (12:30 a.m.)" -quoted from http://nithyanandafraud.blogspot.com/

Thus, the SN would be in the 6th House Aries, the ruler Mars in the 10th Leo, retrograde "¦ this Mars is trine the SN and sextile the NN in the 12th House Libra, which is conjunct Pluto in the 1st House Libra "¦ Mars is inconjunct Venus in the 3rd House Capricorn "¦ Mars is also square Uranus in the 2nd Scorpio "¦
"¦ wouldn't these symbols correlate to a path of renunciation and patriarchal suppression of instinctual nature including sexual nature, and a purpose of using this suppressed sexual energy to activate the chakras and "advance" spiritually? "¦ a path of ascetics and tantra, which would be a patriarchal tantra "¦ hence, a path of renunciation to natural sexuality "¦ though, given that Pluto is in Libra and the NN is in Libra, with Venus in the 3rd House, wouldn't he have a deep need to relate to others as an equal and to share himself as an equal, and further, to experience the relativity of his own truth allowing him to learn from others who are not only spiritual masters? "¦ instead of being put apart (SN in 6th House) because of the special destiny (SN in Aries) he has to fulfill (he has been subject to a strict training since he was 3 years old "¦)? "¦ he has been put above the rest of the people (SN ruler in the 10th House Leo, ruling the 7th House, ruled by the Sun in the 3rd House Capricorn, because of pyramidal concepts about reality of patriarchal nature "¦ which have proved to be false (Jupiter is square the Nodes too) "¦

... and indeed he has related to many others who have come to him under this delusion, because he has needed to be considered special but also because he has needed to be in relationships, and, further, in order to induce this type of crises (the inconjunct between Mars and Venus) "¦ Jupiter is retrograde in Gemini in the 9th in mutual reception with Mercury in the 3rd Sagittarius, which is new phase conjunct Neptune "¦ the Moon is in the 12th House and squares Jupiter, Mercury and Neptune (also Lucifer) "¦ the Moon is in Virgo "¦ wouldn't he, at an egocentric level, have already faced a crisis in relation with these manmade beliefs and the need to de-condition himself from wrong identifications with holiness and spiritual superiority? wouldn't this crises be necessary in order to embrace not just a part of the truth but the totality of the Natural Truth (NN in the 12th House), which would occur, again, through relationships? "¦

I hope I am not being a devil's advocate "¦

Gonzalo

[Lucius]

Ari - not sure if this will answer your question about JWG.  But, he has mentioned a past life of being a priest doing an exorcism & being 'full of himself' to the extent that he thought he alone could conquer the evil and he died in the process.  This was meant as an example of being arrogant in one's capability - I also assume that life would have been within the 2nd stage spiritual for him.....?

[Wendy]

Ari - not sure if this will answer your question about JWG.  But, he has mentioned a past life of being a priest doing an exorcism & being 'full of himself' to the extent that he thought he alone could conquer the evil and he died in the process.  This was meant as an example of being arrogant in one's capability - I also assume that life would have been within the 2nd stage spiritual for him.....?

I remember reading this too.

[Rad]

Ari,

"Can anyone provide information about the nature of this soul's transition from second stage to third stage?"

***************************************************************************

  It comes through a circumstance that creates intense humiliation to the Soul. The degree of that humiliation and intensity is in direct proportion to the level of egocentric self inflation at the spiritual level of evolution. Additionally, it is in direct proportion to the degree that other Souls that have been hurt and disillusioned by the Soul. That does not mean that those other Souls do not have their own responsibility to the choices that they themselves made that lead to 'believing' in that Soul.

  Another thing we need to understand within the Second Stage spiritual condition is that it does not automatically equal, in all cases, the extremity of the situations that we have been discussing so far in this thread: Claire Prophet, etc. The simple example above in which Wolf shared an example of his own 2nd Stage Spiritual situation when he was a priest who performed exorcisms. What he said about that is that he was so convinced that God was stronger than Evil that nothing could hurt him in the act of performing those exorcisms. And because of this he felt so full of God that the Evil manifesting within a certain person in the form of the demonic spirits within that person could not hurt him. This is a form of egocentric self inflation in the 2nd Stage spiritual in that Wolf thought he was a more  perfect channel for God than he actually was, and that 'he' could exorcise this person no matter what. Wolf went on to share that God taught him big time about that because his egocentric self inflation was quickly destroyed by the fact that the demonic spirit within that person succeeded in strangling Wolf to death.

Another example too that I remember him sharing, this one a bit more humorous, was life in which he had been living in a certain land in which he felt it was his 'mission', egocentric mission, to spread the teachings of a certain teaching and teacher. He did this by going through every village that he could find, and literally shouting at the top of his lungs those teachings. And that he would typically do this at the break of day when it was very still: his mission. This of course created a variety of reactions by those subjected to 'his mission'. And it was in those various reactions that the necessary humiliation to his ego occurred. And of course the nature of these types of humiliation, at this 2nd Stage of evolution, was as simple as it was critical to his evolution out of this 2nd Stage: the difference between the ego deciding what it was to do on behalf of God/ess versus being INWARDLY DIRECTED by God/ess to do whatever the Soul is asked to do. And then making the decision/ choice to do exactly that, and no more than that, whatever that is.

Rad

[ari moshe]

Hi Gonzalo,

I don't think your playing devil's advocate, your being a discerning ea asrologer! Thank you for doing so.

He says he did not do anything illegal, and that is probably true. That isn't the point though. His actions did not reflect the image he wished to create. He has failed to take responsibility for that yet.

I think the violent reaction of his students to the scandal may be a natural response to the disillusioment many first stage spiritual souls need to go through when their master is found to be imperfect.

he has been put above the rest of the people (SN ruler in the 10th House Leo, ruling the 7th House, ruled by the Sun in the 3rd House Capricorn, because of pyramidal concepts about reality of patriarchal nature "¦ which have proved to be false (Jupiter is square the Nodes too) "¦  

Not true. He put himself there.

Here's something interesting- he may have lied about his birth time.
Check out this video, is cites the birth date of his passport as being: march 13 1977. A story he has written and told about is that when he was young an astrologer read his chart and said "he will be a king of swamis" (first, the very fact that he himself has told that story is a red flag). It may be that he chose the jan 1 1978 date.

This March 13 date is appealing. It places the ruler of his NN, Venus on his SN. A condition in which he must re-live conditions around his south node in order to eventually access the nn. It also puts the ruler of his sn, Mars, in Aquarius- which is highly descriptive of his interests (he has incorporated neuro linguistic programming- nlp- in his teachings).

http://www.youtube.com/lifeblissfoundation#p/u/2/d1i3sMVOBg4 Towards the end, he is clearly defending himself. A true spiritual teacher would not need to do such a thing. He is emotionally dependent on what other people think of him.

[ari moshe]

Hi All,

Last night the strangest question came up.

Was Moses second stage spiritual? I don't know if anyone here is able to answer that. In the story of the Bible, in Deuteronomy, he was forbidden entrance into the land of Israel because he "hit the rock" instead of "speaking to the rock" as God commanded him. (Numbers chapter 19)

Thank you.

[Gonzalo]

Hi Ari,

You are right: it has been his Soul's decision to pick those circumstances.

I think Moses was in the 3rd stage spiritual condition. He was full of the power of God, which allowed him to do what he did: bring his people to monotheism, give them a law, and take them away from the servitude to Egyptians. Being in the 3rd stage spiritual condition, though, did not mean he was perfect: he doubted, and that was the reason why he could not enter with his people in the "promised land".

God Bless,

Gonzalo.

[adina]

Goodness, I'm just getting back to some of these wonderful discussions and would like to add a few of my own understandings.

In relation to these evolutionary stages being natural and so HAVING to play out this way, Wolf DID teach that they play out this way in a patriarchal reality, ONLY. In a reality that would be based on Natural Laws, they would look very different because, of course, the "conditioning," and belief systems are different. I can't remember exactly when/where I heard him say that, but it was in one of his lectures or workshops years ago. And I thought it was an important point. I and a few others at different times asked him if there was a way to get through 2nd stage spiritual withOUT the "spiritual downfall," and his answer was that as long as one aligned themselves with NATURAL LAW instead of man-made beliefs, then, yes, the downfall could be 'avoided,' or at least mitigated. So, we can see where DE-conditioning from the darned patriarchy has some pretty good "benes."  

In one of the posts Steve made the following observation: Also keep in mind 2nd stage spiritual is almost advertising for students, while 3rd stage spiritual is simply paying attention to whomever God sends their way.  What you have in 1st stage spiritual is innocence and a desire to advance.  So to some extent its going to be who they encounter, which itself is going to be a magnetic attraction based on their own chart signatures thus life lessons, plus their past and intended future.

Generally, I think that's true, but again there are always exceptions. For example, Yogananda, who founded SRF was an avatar, and he had to "advertise" his appearances early on as well as the organization to a certain degree. It's within the people who came to him from those lectures, etc. that he would have "recognized" and concentrated on those who God truly sent his way. PLUS, the advertising wasn't about "him;" it was about the message.... the "pointing the way home." Same thing, really, for Wolf.... he was very MUCH attuned to helping those whom God sent his way, but he still maintained a web site, etc. so people could find him. Again, though, it comes back to the souls any of the teachers in 3rd stage spiritual are actually supposed to help - or assigned - to help, for that is done at the direction of God/Goddess/Source, etc. not the teacher's egocentric desires.  I hope this helped and didn't confuse the issue.  

IMHO, discerning the subtle nuances of the stages has tripped most of us up from time to time. It's easy to take one aspect of the description and place the person in that stage, but there's so much more to it.

Also, thank you Rad, for detailing some of Wolf's past lives that revealed his own evolution to where he is now. I think it's always better to have actual examples along with the descriptions and definitions.

[ari moshe]

Thank you Adina, that was full of helpful clarifications.
I'm learning that the evolutionary stages ARE a reality, and thus discerning them is something to take seriously.

I recognize that that a soul can be in transition from one state to the next for many life times. However, if these stages are definitive, then I imagine we should be able to (theoretically) look at particular moment in the past and say "this is when this soul made the definitive transition to the next stage."

If so, my question about JWG- What event/experience lead to a clear evolution into third stage spiritual. When/how did Jeff Green decisively enter the third stage spiritual?
Can we look at the stages in such a way?

[adina]

Hi Ari,

In GENERAL, yes, there would be a precipitating event that was preceded by a change/decision in consciousness that then drove the event or change in behavior. I think it takes a very hightly evolved soul like Wolf, though, to know exactly when that might be or have been. Unless, of course, you actually OBSERVE it happening to someone. Looking back would be more difficult.

As far as other stages then, it would depend on the stage, the individual soul and it's journey, etc. It is my understanding that there are or will be events such as the one Rad described in relation to Wolf, that would "mark" the transition from any stage to the next. For example, I think it was in the original pluto school that Wolf said that one thing that can push a person over from 1st stage spiritual to 2nd stage spiritual relates to the fact that by the time the person has reached the end of 1st stage spiritual they've typically experienced the first level of samadhi (or whatever it's called in other systems).... and at first they can feel quite genuinely humbled by the experience, but over time that experience itself can lead them to THINK they know more than they do, so they ACT upon that in some fashion that then pushes them over into 2nd stage spiritual. But, again, it would be a decision/choice made in the consciousness first, and then acted upon.  Keep in mind that the person has to already be near, or on the cusp of 2nd stage for that to happen, but that's the kind of thing that would do it. In the simplest terms, it comes down to getting too big for one's britches and thinking you know more than you do. Again, a person in the 1st stage spiritual will at some point HAVE some direct experience of the "truth," but it's just a very small portion of the truth. It's the thinking that one knows MORE than that that gets them into "trouble."

I hope this makes some kind of sense to you, Ari, and maybe Rad and/or Steve will add something to this.

[Steve]

For example, Yogananda, who founded SRF was an avatar, and he had to "advertise" his appearances early on as well as the organization to a certain degree. It's within the people who came to him from those lectures, etc. that he would have "recognized" and concentrated on those who God truly sent his way. PLUS, the advertising wasn't about "him;" it was about the message.... the "pointing the way home."

Hi - I was being quoted too literally.  When I said 2nd stage spiritual would literally be advertising for students, I wasn't referring to ads in the newspaper, although they do that too.  Rather, an attitude they carry, trying to pull in (and often capture) students.

Adina's example of Yogananda is a really good one.  He placed ads and yet he was advertising about the message, knew those who responded were responding to an inner call from God, was not attached to the results.   Thus, even though he was literally advertising for students, he was not advertising for students, which is exactly what my original point was.  Once again it has to do with inner attitude and not external behaviors.
Steve

[adina]

Hey steve,

Yep... that's what I was getting at, AND actually they way I thought you meant it as well. Definitely the whole INNER trip - the inner magnetism. 

Damn words don't always come out the way I want.   Maybe I can blame it on my low oxygen levels.  LOL

[Steve]

Hi Ari

However, if these stages are definitive, then I imagine we should be able to (theoretically) look at particular moment in the past and say "this is when this soul made the definitive transition to the next stage."

I'm not sure I totally agree with that.  As example, at what specific moment in time will the Pisces age end and the Aquarius age begin?  

I would say the definitive transition begins deep within the Soul.  It may take time and an event or series of external events before that transition breaks forth into manifested reality.  If the actual transition takes place within the Soul, how do we correlate that with a specific minute in physical reality?

We know that Spring starts on March 21st in some given year.  Can you tell me what the discernible difference is between March 20th and March 22nd?  

If I recall Rad explained that it happened for Jeffrey's Soul after he had been killed by the evil spirit he'd been trying to exorcise.  It led him to realize he had much less power and control over things than he'd believed.  That this created a deeper humility and acceptance.  That is a crossing of a line, like a changing of the seasons or an age.   But there is still a period (perhaps a long period) within the personalities that Soul inhabits of going back and forth between the old and the new, integrating and stabilizing the new realizations into an existing personality structure that has long memories of a past in which its emotional reality was different than the new realization.  All of that has to be integrated.  You'd begin to see some behaviors representative of the new insights, and others that point back to the old.  Over time the new ones strengthen and the old recede.  That is the process of evolution in action.
Steve

[Wendy]

Again, a person in the 1st stage spiritual will at some point HAVE some direct experience of the "truth," but it's just a very small portion of the truth. It's the thinking that one knows MORE than that that gets them into "trouble."

Hi Adina,

One question continues to arise in me about 1st stage spiritual moving into 2nd stage spiritual:  WHY--why would a soul even want to move into the stage of thinking they know more than they do?  Just for the sake of evolving?  2nd stage spiritual sounds egotistical...not very spiritual?

Thanks,
Wendy

[adina]

Hi Wendy,

I'm glad you asked this question. I know that many others over time have asked that one, or others similar to it, because when we are sincerely seeking God, the last thing we would consciously want to do is get so full of ourselves that we end up hurting others.

I think I'll approach your question in a couple of different ways.

Behind the stages of evolution - without naming them anything at all - is simply the natural law of expanding consciousness that all souls experience, no matter what place they are on the continuum or what we call it. The stages have been identified in the way Wolf did so that we as astrologers would be more aware of the kind of consciousness we're dealing with in readings so we can address the client in the best way possible. His explanation is based on the ancient origin of these stages based on the ORIGINAL caste system, which was based on the balance of three qualities (gunas) present in all souls. As Kriyananda described them, they are Sattwa (calming), tamas (depressing) and rajas (energizing or activating). So, really, without having these stages named and explained we wouldn't even be looking at these issues in this way.

With that background, it's not really a matter of "wanting" to move into a place where they think they know more than they do. It's because we've learned about it in the way and context that we have that I think has inspired your question. For example, if I know I'm in the first stage spiritual, and on the cusp of 2nd stage, then why would I want to move forward KNOWING I'm almost destined to become a total jerk? BUT, most of us aren't going to be aware of it in those terms.

So moving to that stage is first of all a sincere desire and effort to know God and then to be of service to God; that's the driving force behind the very end of 3rd stage individuated on thru all the stages of spiritual. What I'm saying is that if we didn't have these descriptions of the stages, we wouldn't be asking the question.

As this process evolves to the end of 1st stage spiritual and into second, that sincere desire and effort to know God DOES naturally expand one's consciousness more and more, so that the soul actually begins to experience the inner godhead, not just know it from books or from someone else telling them. This knowledge expands   more thru the 2nd stage spiritual. Souls in this stage, again, actually DO have increasing levels of actual God realization, or what are sometimes called levels of Samadhi. As Wolf taught, by the end of 2nd stage spiritual the soul as typically experienced the first four levels of Samadhi. So, then, what these souls have experienced and know IS what we call the "truth," but what they don't realize at this point is that it's only a PORtion of the truth, not the ENTIRE truth. And therein lies the problem: thinking one knows more than they do, can DO more than they actually can. Except they don't KNOW that's the problem until they're faced with that downfall.

Wolf also taught that these stages play out naturally this way, but ONLY in a patriarchal reality, which, let's face it, we're still living under. If we were living in a society based on natural laws rather than man-made laws, these stages would play out differently. Many of us, I think, asked him years ago if there was someway around this stage, or a way to skip it, or mitigate it"¦.. because of course, KNOWing this could happen IS disturbing"¦. His answer was that the more you can align with natural law - whether the rest of society is or not - the more you CAN mitigate it.

Many years ago, I thought about this as a real conundrum; i.e., if I keep evolving I'm going to have to go thru that stage and I sure don't want to. But to try to turn away from evolving is turning away from the search for God, and that simply wasn't acceptable to me.

I hope this isn't too much information, and that it helps.

Blessings.