To Whomever Feels Able to Answer This,
I am wondering how to interpret a skipped step that occurs between 2 charts. So if there is a chart A and a chart B. Say a planet in chart A is squaring the nodes in chart B. How is that to be interpreted? Clearly, there is a dynamic that has been going on and that has not been adequately addressed. But what I'm wondering is, how is the chart A person in this example to be understood with regard to the chart B person relative to the skipped step? How do you understand the dynamic between the 2 people? Say it is chart A's Jupiter that is squaring chart B's nodes. How is the chart B person to understand the chart A person's presence in her/his life? And how is the chart B person to understand the presence of the chart A person in her/his life? Hope this makes sense. I understand the details can only be understood with a more complete chart picture. But I'm purposely keeping it very basic as I'm really just trying to understand the general meaning of the relationship between the 2 people. So, just to throw something out there. Since it is chart B's Jupiter, could it be said that, perhaps, the chart B person has been a teacher to the chart A person in the past, but somehow that relationship dynamic has not progressed as it should and so there are unresolved patterns between the 2 that need to be resolved. Is the chart B person needing to step up to the plate, so to speak? Or is this a completely incorrect way to even start thinking about this? As another example, might it be that the chart B person has been someone who, over lifetimes, has been consistently deceitful and the chart A person has not gotten this. So perhaps in this lifetime, the resolution is the chart A person finally tuning into this and saying "no" to it, finally perhaps recognizing their need to believe in something outside of themselves and how that has led them to allow themselves to be misled. Those are just 2 examples so you can see what I'm trying to get at and, if I'm completely off, so you can see that and help me to understand it properly.
Also, as I'm working through this, it is seeming that, no matter what the planets and signs involved, since it is a relationship dynamic, for me, there seems to always be the default filter of Libra when looking at this. Is this a correct way to process the information? Will there always be a Libra theme relative to the skipped step between 2 people?
Thank you a million.
Ellen
Hi Ellen,
Not an expert here, but it seems that if the two people are in a significant learning experience via their relationship that the Libra theme would be in the synastry somewhere. I think this would be regardless of skipped steps or not. Looking forward to reading what others are going to respond with here.
cat
Hi Ellen,
These questions are answered in the extensive thread on synastry and composite charts in which we have been doing an EA analysis of the relationship of John Lennon and Yoko. If you have questions after reading through that please ask.
God Bless, Rad
Hi Cat,
Thanks for your thoughts.
Rad,
Thanks for directing me there. Struggling with being able to focus for extended periods of time on things outside of me but will do my best to read through the thread.
Well wishes,
Ellen
Hi Ellen,
I have been reading and re-reading the John and Yoko thread as time permits. There is alot of excellent information and it can be alot to digest so I suggest you take it in a little bit at a time and maybe meditate on what you read and think about how it may relate to you somehow so its not so "outside" you.
I'm thinking that sometimes its more difficult to interprete one's own chart (synastry etc) than other people's chart. I was listening to someone, Kristin Fontana I think, something in regard to not seeing certain things in her own chart for many, many years and only finally seeing them because someone else pointed them out. I contemplate getting a reading myself just for this very reason as I am sure I am blind to something that I will never see unless someone else points it out to me. I'm just trying to decide who I would want to do this for me.
Hi Rad,
I have been reading through the synastry thread. I understand the basics. I understand it's about first understanding thoroughly the dynamics of each individual chart and then from there going on to understand how the charts intersect. That was always quite clear to me. I have also been reading some of the analyses of the synastry charts of Yoko and John and appreciate very much the work that is being done and the insights being offered. But, unless I'm missing something, Yoko and John's charts do not include one of their planets in the position of "skipped step" of the other's chart. Yoko has a skipped step (the Moon) within her chart. But that is a different scenario than what I'm looking at. It is this very specific condition - of one person's planet being a skipped step in another's chart - that has me baffled. What does it mean when a planet in one person's chart is in that very specific position? Just having a hard time wrapping my brain around it, making any sense of it. If you feel that this question does not merit response, or that perhaps you feel I am not working hard enough with what has already been presented on the other thread, that is fine. I understand. I can continue to walk with this question.
Well wishes,
Ellen
Hi Cat,
Thank you for your thoughts on this. I appreciate it.
Well wishes,
Ellen
Hi Ellen,
Are you trying to say that one person has a planet square the other's nodes and wondering if in synastry that is a skipped step the two share together?
Not that I can help you with the answer but just trying to clarify your question :-)
Quote from: cat777 on Sep 01, 2011, 10:34 AM
Hi Ellen,
Are you trying to say that one person has a planet square the other's nodes and wondering if in synastry that is a skipped step the two share together?
Not that I can help you with the answer but just trying to clarify your question :-)
Hi Cat,
My question is broader than that. I am asking how to understand quite simply how to understand the skipped step. One of the answers might be that it is a skipped step that the 2 share. If that is so, then I would want to understand more about that. In terms of each person, what exactly does that mean? In terms of my question, I was trying to understand how to understand the person whose planet is doing the squaring - how to understand that person's place in the relationship from that perspective. Don't know if that makes any sense. I'm not sure I can do a better job of explaining it, but I hope what I've said helps clarify.
Well wishes,
Ellen
Hi again Ellen,
I am not really sure about this but my intuition is telling me that a skipped step between two individuals would be seen in the Composite Chart - not in a synastry comparison. In a synastry comparison you can probably see how the person whose planet is squaring the other's nodes plays a role in that regard to that person's skipped step, but it is not a shared skip step.
Of course, I am still grappling with natal charts and have not lookede into EA synastry and composite yet so I'm just saying what comes to mind and may be totally wrong :-)
Quote from: cat777 on Sep 01, 2011, 11:08 AM
Hi again Ellen,
I am not really sure about this but my intuition is telling me that a skipped step between two individuals would be seen in the Composite Chart - not in a synastry comparison. In a synastry comparison you can probably see how the person whose planet is squaring the other's nodes plays a role in that regard to that person's skipped step, but it is not a shared skip step.
Hi Cat,
Thanks. I agree with this. It's the latter part I'm really trying to grasp. Don't understand how to understand that (what I've highlighted in your quote. That's my question.....
Of course, I am still grappling with natal charts and have not lookede into EA synastry and composite yet so I'm just saying what comes to mind and may be totally wrong :-)
I appreciate that, Cat. Hopefully we'll both find some clarity as we move along....
Well wishes,
Ellen
Hi Ellen,
It might be easier to understand if we used an actual planets, signs and houses otherwise its all kind of really vague, isn't it?
Suppose A's Mercury is square B's Nodes, then we would know that A's thoughts, ideas, opinions, point of view etc, in relation to whatever sign and house it is in, would influence B by helping B resolve the skipped step or repeat the skipped step. And I guess you can see where this leads - it leads to needing to see the entire charts in order to figure it all out. :-)
Until someone comes along and confirms this, take it with a grain of salt :-)
Quote from: cat777 on Sep 01, 2011, 12:32 PM
Hi Ellen,
It might be easier to understand if we used an actual planets, signs and houses otherwise its all kind of really vague, isn't it?
Suppose A's Mercury is square B's Nodes, then we would know that A's thoughts, ideas, opinions, point of view etc, in relation to whatever sign and house it is in, would influence B by helping B resolve the skipped step or repeat the skipped step. And I guess you can see where this leads - it leads to needing to see the entire charts in order to figure it all out. :-)
Until someone comes along and confirms this, take it with a grain of salt :-)
Hi Cat,
Thanks, again. What I've highlighted is just the type of thing I'm wanting to zero in on.. Am hoping a moderator will jump in and confirm and/or elaborate. The question I have is whether or not chart A's planet square the node will act as you say, or if it itself, and the person belonging to the planet (for lack of a better way to say that) will act in a way that facilitates the skipped step OR are they PART of the skipped step. (In a natal chart, the planet squaring the nodes is a part of the whole skipped step signature.) So, if that is so - that chart A's planet squaring chart B's nodes is PART of the skipped step signature - then that is what I struggle with in terms of understanding how that works in the relationship dynamic itself - how do you understand person A in relation to person B with this dynamic in play... As you say, it would necessitate a more full picture of both people/charts to fully understand. I understand that. I am hoping that there is a general way to understand it but perhaps it truly can't be understood in isolation, even just in a general way..... All questions for me. Thanks for your thoughts.
Ellen
The question I have is whether or not chart A's planet square the node will act as you say, or if it itself, and the person belonging to the planet (for lack of a better way to say that) will act in a way that facilitates the skipped step OR are they PART of the skipped step.
I think you just answered it - it can be any of the above. So now we just have to wait for a moderator or someone more advanced than us to let us know if its possible to determine which way it will work out from the chart - or if its a free will thing and can go either way depending on the individual's choices.
Thanks, Cat. Agreed.
Well wishes,
Ellen
Hi Ellen,
Relative to synastry charts alone 'skipped steps' are not symbolized when one person's planet or planets is squaring the Nodes in the others chart. What this symbolizes are dynamics and issues that have created developmental stress between the two people either in previous lives that has come forwards into the current life, or developmental stress that is occurring for the first time in their relationship: the current life. In previous lives such stress may have served to separate the two people, or they may have continued in their relationship with that developmental stress unresolved. In either case the relationship between the two can not actually evolve until that developmental stress is identified and resolved. So too if it is the first lifetime in which that developmental stress is occurring.
The person whose planet or planets is making the square to the others Nodes is the causative factor creating the developmental stress for that other. When this other then reacts to the one causing this stress that reaction, of itself, will then create developmental stress within the one who planet(s) are squaring that person's Nodes. This ongoing interaction of cause and effect, back and forth, is that which will the ongoing developmental stress between the two people until the reasons for it are objectively identified and then resolved.
Skipped steps between two people can only be symbolized in their composite chart together.
Yes, there is a Libra theme involved only because two people in a relationship or relating in some way with one another.
God Bless, Rad
Hi Rad,
Thank you so much. That clears everything up for me.
Warmly,
Ellen
Hi Rad,
I do have one follow up question if that is ok. In thinking about developmental stress, it seems to me that that can take 1 of 2 forms. 1) the person whose planet is squaring the other's nodes (person A) is further along and thus represents a challenge to the person whose nodes are being squared (person B). So the stress that person B is experiencing could be the stress of not having developed within her/himself to the extent of this other. Thus person A, simply by her/his presence in B's life, could be showing up a deficiency which causes person B to feel stress. 2) person A is less developed than person B. And thus person A's presence in person B's life is developmentally stressful because perhaps person A's presence hinders or blocks person B's development. The specifics, of course, can be understood from the specific archetypes involved. I suppose there could be a 3rd scenario and that is that Person A and Person B are on par, but are going in different ways. Thus person A's direction would cause stress in Person B. And one or both would need to come to understand that there is simply a need to part.
Thank you,
Ellen
Hi Ellen,
Those scenarios are possible but there are also many other scenarios as well that can correlate with the developmental stress. For example, when you first asked the questions about this you used the planet Jupiter squaring another person's Nodes. There are many possible examples/scenarios that this could correlate too including the Jupiter person not being truthful, lying, to the other. Thus, this developmental stress between the two would prevent evolving or moving forwards together unless and until this lying was identified: objectified between them. And then the reasons or causes for the lying within a determination to not lie again.
This little example is to only illustrate that there are many, many possible scenarios beyond the one's you have stated.
God Bless, Rad
Hi Rad,
Thank you so much for taking the time to respond to my questions. It has helped a ton. And I understand what you are saying about there being many possibilities.
Well wishes,
Ellen
Hi Ellen,
I forgot to add an important issue here: if the two people try to go ahead in their relationship before resolving whatever the issues are, the developmental stress, symbolized by having one's planet(s) squaring the other Nodes, this will then lead TO SKIPPED STEPS between them which then be symbolized in their combined charts in the next life.
God Bless, Rad
Quote from: Rad on Sep 02, 2011, 08:02 AM
Hi Ellen,
I forgot to add an important issue here: if the two people try to go ahead in their relationship before resolving whatever the issues are, the developmental stress, symbolized by having one's planet(s) squaring the other Nodes, this will then lead TO SKIPPED STEPS between them which then be symbolized in their combined charts in the next life.
God Bless, Rad
Very, very interesting, Rad. Thank you for adding this. It makes absolutely perfect sense. I did have one more question. Might ONE possibility be to simply decide, mutually, to not go on together? Could that be one of the possible resolutions? But this of course could only be decided once the developmental stress is fully identified and understood by both. If only one fully understood it, that person might decide to leave before the other was ready (Libra archetype relevant in relationship dynamics), and thus there would be a need to connect up again at some point (this life or another) to continue to work through the dynamic. I mean that as a question. Also, might it be possible for one person, fully conscious of the dynamic, to decide to leave, knowing full well that there will need to be a rendezvous at some later date, but simply recognizing that at this point in time, the work that needs to be done cannot happen due to the other's inability or failure to recognize the developmental stress in a conscious way?
Thank you, Rad. I truly appreciate your knowledge and insights on these questions I'm asking.
Well wishes,
Ellen
Hi Ellen,
Generally, the answer is yes to all of what you have asked and said.
God Bless, Rad
Thank you, Rad.... again.........
Hi Rad,
I have just been reading through the Geodetics Equivalent thread. (Someone has asked me to look at this for them re: their own chart, so I am refreshing my memory.)
Anyway, this question from Linda and your response led to a question for me here. Here is the exchange:
________________________________________________________________________________________
" Linda: "Is it correct to include the SUN?"
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"No, because the Sun correlates to the current life. So if we are focusing on the prior lifetimes and their dynamics that have lead to the current life this would not be included."
_________________________________________________________________________________________
So, it seems to me that if one person's Sun is squaring another person's nodes, because it is the Sun it can be known that the developmental stress is something that is new to the current lifetimes of the 2. I am just having a hard time understanding how a developmental stress could arise independent of past life dynamics? The only thing I can think of is that the developmental stress signified by the Sun is there by design to somehow facilitate the growth of both. But this seems to suggest a past life genesis so really, I just feel confused on this one. Another possibility is that a certain direction of growth has manifested in one person (the person whose Sun is squaring the nodes) and that this internally generated growth has led to developmental stress in the other (thus the Sun squaring the nodes). This makes much more sense to me but am not sure if it is correct. Anyway, as I said, confusing for me to try to really understand this one so was hoping for your input. Thank you!
Well wishes as always,
Ellen
Rad,
I am sorry... I hope this is not too much. Once again something I read in the geodetics thread has prompted a question. If you do not have the time to answer, I understand. Here is the quote and questions in case you do:
_________________________________________________________________________________________
"One quick question (although not thoroughly thought out): If there are other branches on a cosmogram do they also refer to the symbolism of a square aspect?
****************************************
"We can use the symbolism of a square, or semi-square, etc but the underlying dynamic is one of developmental/ evolutionary stress."
_________________________________________________________________________________________
This made me wonder about the developmental stress that is evident when a person in one planet's chart is square the nodes in another. What I'm wondering about is how to understand that stress more specifically. Obviously, understanding the archetypes involved is key to understanding this. Beyond that, my question is: 1) Is it simply a matter of developing a full and complete understanding of each person's individual chart and lives and then from there understanding how the involved archetypes would express/play out relative to one another given their specific lives and inner dynamics; 2) Even though this configuration is not a significator of skipped steps, is it possible to zero in more specifically on just what the stress is by using the skipped steps technique of identifying which node is emphasized and then developing more thoroughly just what the interplay of those archetypes involved in that might be (even though it is not, in fact, a skipped step)? 3) Thinking more specifically about that, if it is indeed a way to zero in, if say, the NN were pointed to, could you then understand that the person who's planet is squaring the other's nodes is in some way, because of her/his own development, fostering or hindering the other's evolutionary progress? And, if it is the NN that is emphasized, assuming there are not other skipped step signatures (ie, in either person's individual charts or in the composite chart), can it be concluded that this is the 1st lifetime in which this developmental stress is occurring? 4) Finally, if it is the SN that is pointed to, can it be understood that the person whose planet is squaring the nodes has in the past either hindered or fostered the other's evolutionary development? (The assumption I'm making here is that if it is the SN that is indicated, it can be assumed that past lives have occurred together. But I am also thinking that my underlying assumption in these questions is flawed...)
Thank you, Rad.
With gratitude,
Ellen
Hi Ellen,
"So, it seems to me that if one person's Sun is squaring another person's nodes, because it is the Sun it can be known that the developmental stress is something that is new to the current lifetimes of the 2. I am just having a hard time understanding how a developmental stress could arise independent of past life dynamics?"
**************
There is always a first time for anything. Relative to something happening for the first time then sets in motion a past relative to that something happening for the first time.
*******************************
"The only thing I can think of is that the developmental stress signified by the Sun is there by design to somehow facilitate the growth of both. But this seems to suggest a past life genesis so really, I just feel confused on this one. Another possibility is that a certain direction of growth has manifested in one person (the person whose Sun is squaring the nodes) and that this internally generated growth has led to developmental stress in the other (thus the Sun squaring the nodes). This makes much more sense to me but am not sure if it is correct. Anyway, as I said, confusing for me to try to really understand this one so was hoping for your input. Thank you!"
***************************
The Sun in any chart correlates with how the entire EA paradigm, for any person, is given a current life purpose, and how that current life purpose relative to the EA paradigm is integrated. When a person's Sun squares the Nodes of another it's their own sense of current life purpose, and how that is integrated relative to the EA paradigm in their chart, that can then create the developmental stress for both people. This can occur because the Sun person may feel that their current life purpose is being held back by the other person relative to that person's own S.Node: their own individual past. Conversely, the Sun person may also manifest in the others life in order to help them actualize their future, their N.Node, by encouraging them to move away from, evolve, their past. Thus, the Sun person creates a sense of developmental, evolutionary, stress for the Nodes person because of the Sun's persons own sense of their current life purpose, and now to integrate it, causes the Nodes person to have a great deal of tension or developmental, evolutionary, stress around their own past and their future as experienced in each moment.
This can then create developmental stress in both the person whose Nodes are being squared by the others Sun, and the Sun person them self, because the Sun person can feel that their own sense of current life purpose, and needing to fully actualize it, is being in some ways hamstrung because this type of interaction with the Nodes person: being caught up in that person's own struggle to evolve from their past to their future.
Everything depends on the nature and type of relationship involved of course. Is it a casual relationship ? An intimate one, and so forth and so on. The type of the relationship will of course determine each person reaction to this type of developmental stress. And in each case the EA astrologer must be able to determine all the other connecting factors between the two people that have come before the current life in order to understand the exact WHY of having one's Sun square the others Nodes. Once the core WHY is understood then a comprehensive understanding can take place in such a way as to know the correct way to understand this dynamic, and how to proceed because of it.
On the other hand, as mentioned above, there is always a first time for anything.
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God Bless, Rad
Hi Ellen,
"This made me wonder about the developmental stress that is evident when a person in one planet's chart is square the nodes in another. What I'm wondering about is how to understand that stress more specifically. Obviously, understanding the archetypes involved is key to understanding this. Beyond that, my question is: 1) Is it simply a matter of developing a full and complete understanding of each person's individual chart and lives and then from there understanding how the involved archetypes would express/play out relative to one another given their specific lives and inner dynamics"
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There is nothing beyond this. All the answers are within this.
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God Bless, Rad
Rad,
THANK YOU! Amazingly helpful and I am so appreciative.
Well wishes,
Ellen
Hi Ellen, Rad and et al,
This thread is so timely for me! Ellen I have had the very same question and several weeks ago I read the entire Synastry-Composite Thread, which is incredibly amazing and I wanted to participate, but my current life circumstances have other priorities at hand for now. I would like to dive deeply into an EA immersion and will, in due time, so I appreciate your inquires here.
In response to the example of Chart A Sun square Chart B nodes--everything Rad said is exactly what I have been recently experiencing, with a woman I have known over the years. My Sun--17 Leo lands in her 8th house and exactly squares her nodes in Taurus/Scorpio in the 5th/11th, plus her Saturn is conjunct my SN Sag, squaring my skipped step planet, Saturn. in addition my Neptune is conjunct her NN, so in essence my Piscean energies are sign posts for her to gain a more compassionate understanding of herself and society at large, which goes along with the themes of her being ousted and/or traumatized by social groups. Plus, I feel we are in different evolutionary stages, which fuels further stress.
Although there are lots of commonalities, more than ever my Sun energy feels weighted down by her stuckness in the SN Taurus, which is exacerbated by her Venus in Leo (8th) in opp to Chiron Aquarius (2nd) exactly square her nodes--major pain around relationships, money, women, betrayal, etc., and I feel she just doesn't get my need for lightness and the transcendence of it all--12th house NN.
I feel she needs more objectivity to her emotions (11th NN Scorpio), to lift her desires (Pluto 9th house) to new awareness to be liberated...she feels she is "older" than me and knows more and that our challenge is to work on the fine line of two powerful women not being threatened by one another...competition with men, etc...
I feel this is her issue, it doesn't come up in my other relationships with women...feels like a power trip to me, more than authentic desire for evolution that gets focused on...she's very intellectual in a artistic psychological way, and I feel intellectualism is a bypass to authenticity of the heart--Leo--my soul's path, plus my Mercury feels threatened I'm sure, to having to logically spell it all out, when my Sag wants to just have it understood without words (Pisces).
Thus, now that this can of worms is opened with this woman, I know I have to complete whatever the issue is and thus need to have an objective perspective about our synastry charts, maybe a composite to get to the bottom of the issue so it may be resolved in the thorough and complete way.
My Sun Mercury are in the 3rd house with 12th Jupiter-NN Gemini--it don't want anything holding me back from expanding and flitting around as I feel into, touch into Spirit and environments, thoughts, to be in compassionate service.
Two major themes I feel put us in quandry: different generations and past-life wounds. We both have grand cross charts with the nodes involved. Both have Chiron Venus themes, plus additional planetary issues around the nodes, both have need to liberate from a soul level, but our paths of liberating are quite different (her NN in the 11th, mine in the 12th, hers in fixed, mine mutable).
Due to the complex nature of both our charts, and my growing but limited knowledge of intreperating, I don't have a clear perspective of her chart to offer.
Anyway, I hope my example adds to the thread and if you have any feedback or questions I welcome them.
Peace,
Wendy
Hi Wendy,
Thanks for sharing your experience. I can appreciate the challenge and difficulty! What I love about EA is how amazing it is at helping to understand the dynamics of just these kinds of experiences, and thus how empowering it is as it is then possible to make better choices, within and without.
Relationships!
Love,
Ellen
PS Deepest gratitude to Rad for his patient responses to my questions and for sharing his depth of knowledge and experience.
Hi Wendy,
Thanks for sharing this .............
God Bless, Rad
Hi Rad,
I have been away from the forum and just found your reply. Thank you for acknowledging my response to Ellen's question. Sometimes I'm not sure if I share too much or if it is just right and appropriate for the question/discussion at hand.
Peace,
Wendy