Old EA Message Board

Hi All,

I have only begun the coursework for EA, yet I have a question about discerning the evolutionary stage or condition of children.  I want to apply the EA Paradigm to my childrens' charts to reveal their path so that I can better understand them and provide support for their differing evolutionary needs.  My youngest son is seven, my older son is eighteen and disabled, and my daughter is twenty-two .  She would seem to vacillate between third stage consensus and first stage individuated, but it is hard to tell since she has moved out and I see her less frequently now.  I would be able to ask her the appropriate questions, however, to more finely tune my understanding of her evolutionary condition.  My oldest son appears to be in first stage consensus reality, as he only knows exactly what he is taught, and accepts the knowledge of authority figures to be without question.  However, my youngest son is really the reason for posting this particular question.

It would seem to me that most children come in a spiritual state, which then perhaps 'diminishes' into an individuated state when they are first learning the 'mechanics of being human' so to speak.  This level then seems to often 'diminish' into consensus reality as they are forced into specific cultural and social and gender roles by their immediate environments and caregivers.  Perhaps that is what the Soul expected and why it chose those parents and that specific environment...?

Or, alternatively, ask a child what they seek, and they will almost always request immediate gratification or something material, as perhaps is expected in a consensus-reality Soul.  So, do children mostly start in consensus, and then perhaps individuate as they age?  If the Soul generates the Ego that it requires in a certain life, is that Ego in place in extreme youth...or does it come forth later in life, after the conditioning of environment/society/culture impinge upon them?

Also, a related question: Has any study been done on the mapping of childrens' evolutionary states with those of their parents?  For example, do consensus-reality-level souls usually come as children to consensus-reality-level parents...or would it be that consensus-reality-level souls come as children to parents who are of a higher level, in order to help that child expand into a higher evolutionary stage?  Or, is it an unnecessary question, as the Soul comes to whatever family can provide a chance to learn the appropriate lessons for that Soul's evolution?

Thanks to anyone who has any input,
Stephen

Hi Stephen, thanks for posting these questions. Children come into life in a specific evolutionary state, but I feel that you are saying that specific conditioning patterns set in later in life (as children grow up) that are not there as a small child. This tends to start happeneing at the first saturn square (at about 7 years of age) because we start to become aware of the nature of the society/culture we are growing up in, and what that society expects from us in terms of conformity to it (saturn).  Of course, this is also true of the family enviornment (Saturn correlates to the authority figure in our life that tends to be the father, and the father will act as the parent who determines the accepted behavior that must be conformed to). So, this conditioning happens on a societal/cultural level and within the family (cancer polarity point to capricorn/saturn).
The way to determine the evolutionary states of a child is the same as an adult-observe what the child's natural orientation and "bottom line." Some children are much more interested in art/poetry/individualist areas, than other who are mainly focused on material possesions and more "traditional" areas of life. Also, within the individuated state you feel that the child is alienationed from the rest of the group, and will hopefully seek out suppourt for this in one way or another. I wanted to add my thoughts with you, so I hope this helps.
Deva

Hi Deva,

Thanks for the EA answer, and for helping me to clarify this point.
So, no matter what the evolutionary condition at the time of the birth, the evolutionary condition of the person who is requesting the application of the EA Paradigm to their current circumstances is paramount, and thus the adage: "Observe and correlate!"
I think I am starting to get the idea...!

I was thinking further about this answer, and I had the thought:
Whereas some children act the 'same' in every environment that they encounter, others act differently in each environment, slightly/greatly modifying themselves in order to 'fit in'.  It would perhaps seem that in the first instance, the child has a firm grasp of Self, and maybe could be seen as individuated, and the in the second case, the child is swayed by the opinions/reality of the group, and perhaps could be viewed as consensus.
I believe that adults can also display this behavior pattern.

Blessings and Light,
Stephen

Hi Stephen

Quote from: stephen on Jun 06, 2009, 10:38 PM
It would seem to me that most children come in a spiritual state, which then perhaps 'diminishes' into an individuated state when they are first learning the 'mechanics of being human' so to speak.  This level then seems to often 'diminish' into consensus reality as they are forced into specific cultural and social and gender roles by their immediate environments and caregivers.  Perhaps that is what the Soul expected and why it chose those parents and that specific environment...?

"It would seem to me that most children come in a spiritual state, which then perhaps 'diminishes' into an individuated state when they are first learning the 'mechanics of being human' so to speak. "
 To me this is not correct.  You are perhaps confusing the natural innocence of children with their level of spiritual evolution.  They are not the same thing.
 It takes many lifetimes to move along the evolutionary scale even a small amount in the great majority of cases.  This measures the evolutionary stage of the Soul itself, not the personality.  To the Soul each new lifetime is just one more opportunity to advance itself at least to a small extent.   The basic nature of a Soul is pure, and we see this reflection in early childhood.  But soon enough we start seeing the places within that Soul, brought in from the past, appearing.  Because that is the actual nature of that Soul, operating in its actual state of self-awareness - after all, evolutionary stages represent degrees of self-awareness, vs externally defined expectations of who one is and is supposed to be.

 I don't see it as souls "diminish" into an individuated state.  If you think about it, 70% of Souls haven't even reached the individuated state.  Thus how can they diminish into something they don't even know in the first place?  
 We are born here, and as we fully enter the body in the first years of childhood, we find ourselves operating from the same m.o., the same self-reality, self-identity we left with, perhaps in old-age, in the last go round.  In other words, we start exactly where we left off, literally.   Which explains the so-called rebellious child, who simply is more evolved than its parents.  Its a pretty strange feeling to be 3 years old and realizing you understand way more than your parents do...  Whereas other children, perhaps even siblings, are quite content to simple accept the reality put forth by the parents.

QuoteOr, alternatively, ask a child what they seek, and they will almost always request immediate gratification or something material, as perhaps is expected in a consensus-reality Soul.  So, do children mostly start in consensus, and then perhaps individuate as they age?  If the Soul generates the Ego that it requires in a certain life, is that Ego in place in extreme youth...or does it come forth later in life, after the conditioning of environment/society/culture impinge upon them?

Nothing is inherently stated that a Soul in an individuated state is not going to have the same desires for immediate gratification that other humans have.  It comes with the territory.  I would say the difference is, as a Soul evolves, the nature of its relationship with the desire for immediate gratification changes - it becomes more OK with the reality that its not going to get everything it wants when it wants it.  It matures in that way - more inherent acceptance of the laws that define human life in a body.  

 Again, a child starts where it left off.  An individuated child is going to display a sense of alienation from an early age.  It will feel different.  In some cases it will be born into a family that can not relate to that child's reality at all, which has the effect of throwing that child back on itself, to further deepen and develop that necessary individuating process.  In other cases the child will be born into a family that itself is in an individuating process, or beyond, that will validate that child's natural ways and teach it that what is right for that child is what that child knows is right for itself, no matter anyone else's opinions on that matter.
 It is unique for each child/Soul - there are no generic rules.  Its all dependent on the nature of that Soul's past, and the nature of the life lessons that Soul has planned for itself in the new incarnation.  A principle that in EA is called Evolutionary Necessary - certain experiences are simply necessary to bring about the desired growth.  In some cases those experiences can feel painful, lonely, and difficult, in others more inclusive nurturing and warm.  It all depends on what that Soul has decided is the most effective method for bringing forth the insights it wants to develop in the present life.

In terms of what you said about a child of yours exhibiting signs of both 3rd stage consensus and 1st stage individuated:  (I am just commenting on that phenomena.  Not making any statement at all about the evolutionary stage of your child or if your assessment is correct).  That is what would be described as at the cusp of a change in evolutionary stage, which itself can take several lifetimes to really settle into the new stage.  The person will go back and forth, exhibiting signs of both.  Yet they will be predominantly in one or the other, which reflects the place of actual evolutionary stage. At some point the actual crossover occurs, and then it progressively shifts forward from there.
  There is discussion in another current message board post about having Pluto at the exact cusp between two houses - this phenomena is quite similar.  One archetype is culminating, a new one is being birthed.  Prior to the actual conjunction, the dominant archetype is the old one.  Once the conjunction has occurred the dominant archetype is the new one - in that case there will still be traces of the old exhibited at times, as it is familiar and has been the prevailing m.o. for a long time.  Over time the imprint of the old progressively weakens and the archetype of the new progressively strengthens.
 We can't measure the shifting in evolutionary stage by looking at a two dimensional birth chart, as we can to chart the oncoming conjunction of Pluto and a house cusp, but the phenomena is basically the same - the old is slowly yet progressively replaced with the new.  The issue is, new always feels insecure unknown and uncertain, old feels safe known familiar comfortable.  Thus our tendency to stay with what we know.  But it becomes like a child whose growing foot no longer fits comfortably in a favorite sneaker - its becomes too small to contain the foot, so ultimately it must be released and move forward into a new pair of shoes, shoes that need to be broken in, gotten used to, made my own so to speak.  Which does gradually occur.

QuoteAlso, a related question: Has any study been done on the mapping of childrens' evolutionary states with those of their parents?  For example, do consensus-reality-level souls usually come as children to consensus-reality-level parents...or would it be that consensus-reality-level souls come as children to parents who are of a higher level, in order to help that child expand into a higher evolutionary stage?  Or, is it an unnecessary question, as the Soul comes to whatever family can provide a chance to learn the appropriate lessons for that Soul's evolution?

the answer, I would say, is
"Or, is it an unnecessary question, as the Soul comes to whatever family can provide a chance to learn the appropriate lessons for that Soul's evolution?"
 Every possible combination can occur, as necessary for the evolution of the Souls involved.
 
Remember, its not just the evolution of the child - the Souls of the parents have their own evolutionary intentions.  When an "advanced" child is born into a consensus family, something within the Souls of those parents has also desired this situation, as it will result, at some point, in their own evolutionary advancement, even if they strongly resist it.
 The work of the EA astrologer is to look at the overall dynamics of all concerned and try to discern why these experiences have been necessary for both the child and the parents.
 I seem to remember however (not positive) Jeffrey saying that in the majority of cases the evolutionary stage of the parents will be close to the evolutionary stage of the children, as in the same or one stage higher or lower - 1st stage indiv and 3rd stage consensus, etc.  The parents stage can be more advanced than the childs, which has its own reasons for being.  Every possible combination occurs.

I also realized I should say something about a phenomena called masking or hiding - a soul that creates an outer reality in which it operates, and has itself convinced it is, at a level below its actual state of spiritual evolution.  (This is often associated with the Pisces archetype - hiding.)  Reasons for this can vary but quite commonly include intense traumas that have occurred in past lives relative to its actual state of spiritual awareness, it being perceived as different, outside the mainstream, challenging or threatening to the existing order.  And in the present life that Soul says to itself "who needs more of that?  I'm just going to act like I'm "supposed to", and convince myself that I'm not really as different as I feel I am".  And it will live that way, perhaps for a really long time.  Such Souls are identified when doing readings for them because on the outside they are living very conventional lives, yet the degree of depth and insight they exhibit goes well beyond the nature of the outer life, even the physical appearance - dress, manner of speaking, etc., they have adopted.

Steve

Steve and Stephen,

I do remember Wolf teaching, in general, that children are either in the same evolutionary condition as the parents, or sometimes a little ahead. But this is in general, not an absolute. The stuff you wrote Steve is wonderful, and, from my point of view, right on.

Rad

Hi all,

Steve,

in reguards to what you said about hiding

I also realized I should say something about a phenomena called masking or hiding - a soul that creates an outer reality in which it operates, and has itself convinced it is, at a level below its actual state of spiritual evolution.  (This is often associated with the Pisces archetype - hiding.)  Reasons for this can vary but quite commonly include intense traumas that have occurred in past lives relative to its actual state of spiritual awareness, it being perceived as different, outside the mainstream, challenging or threatening to the existing order.  And in the present life that Soul says to itself "who needs more of that?  I'm just going to act like I'm "supposed to", and convince myself that I'm not really as different as I feel I am".  And it will live that way, perhaps for a really long time.  Such Souls are identified when doing readings for them because on the outside they are living very conventional lives, yet the degree of depth and insight they exhibit goes well beyond the nature of the outer life, even the physical appearance - dress, manner of speaking, etc., they have adopted.

isn't this the case with 1st stage spiritual?  I remember wolf saying that sometimes in 1st spiritual people can take on the appearance of being"normal" (such a silly word).. which is different than say 1st indivuated which is normal on the outside yet inside feeling very "different"...

great info..

thanks,

pam

Hi Pam

Quoteisn't this the case with 1st stage spiritual?  I remember wolf saying that sometimes in 1st spiritual people can take on the appearance of being"normal" (such a silly word).. which is different than say 1st individuated which is normal on the outside yet inside feeling very "different"...

Again, its never going to be a hard and fast rule that "all 1st stage spiritual people will be hiding".  There simply are no such rules in life.

In terms of the WHY behind Wolf's statement, if you think about what has been necessary to evolve into 1st stage spiritual, you will see all of the alienation, rejection, persecution, etc. that have so often been involved, which has triggered traumas.  And past trauma, as I said before, is one root cause of why a Soul might choose to hide.  So sure, it makes sense to me you might see a lot of this in 1st stage spiritual.  But it can occur in any stage where a Soul has advanced beyond self-identifying with the values standards and lifestyle of the collective/consensus. 

  Also, what makes you think a 1st stage spiritual person doesn't feel as different on the inside as a 1st stage individuated person?  I'd say they may feel even more different.  One difference between the two would be in general the 1st stage spiritual will have better come to terms with accepting their inherent difference - they may not like it, but they have come to terms with it.  (Remember, they have passed through 3rd stage individuated in which they have fully realized they can never again be pulled back into the collective).  So even while hiding they would still on some level know who they are.  They are just trying to keep others from finding out, wanting to avoid repetition of painful consequences of being seen that they have subconscious memories of.
Steve

Hi Steve,

thanks for the response... and of course, there are no hard and fast rules... I was never implying that all people who are 1st stage spiritual are hiding.  I was just recalling that that was one and I mean just one of the tipping off points for 1st stage spiritual. The soul takes on the appearance and look of normal, yet inside they feel different.   I do think that there is a difference between 1st stage indivuated and 1st stage spiritual in terms of how they feel different, they have different qualities of feeling "different" as you pointed out.   We are in agreement, from what I have learned from EA that 1st stage indivuated feels "different" actually it can be one of the most insecure states... feeling different inside yet looking normal outside.  My point was that in your comment I do think there is a connection between looking normal and feeling different in terms of evolutionary states... thats all I was just wondering how you differientated them....

thanks for the thoughtful response,

pam

Hi Pam

Here is a great example of the principle right on our message board, the latest reply from Linda, who has said she self-identifies as 1st stage spiritual, responding to Rad's comments, and the effect of them on her inner state:
https://forum.schoolofevolutionaryastrology.com/index.php/topic,52.msg487.html#msg487

Quote from: Steve on Jun 08, 2009, 11:09 AM
Hi Stephen
 To me this is not correct.  You are perhaps confusing...

Steve,

Thanks for clearing up my confusion.  An excellant posting...I feel that my internal lenses were just given a big turn towards a clearer focus.  Thanks!

Thank you very much Pam and Rad for the further information.

Blessings,
Stephen

thanks steve!!!

very helpful !!


pam

Hi All,

I was reading the archived Message Board (1999-2003), and I came across the following, so I thought that I would just go ahead and bring it forward into this thread.

Blessings,
Stephen

Quote from: 12-Feb-1999

(Question) Evolutionary States & Children(Question) 12-Feb-1999 Evolutionary States & Children
1. Do the four evolutionary states apply to children as well?
2. Especially when children are young (say 10 years and younger) does not parental influence keep them more so in a consensus state?
3. Or once again, does the environment, culture, early childhood conditioning contribute to such a large extent that each child must be analyzed on an individual basis?
Shirley

(Answer) 1. yes they do
2. all children pick the overall conditions for their life including parents, culture, economic conditions, etc...
3. yes, each child must be observed and analyzed on an individual basis starting with the question: why has this child pick all the various conditions for the life it is now living...the role of the astrological detective...once you approach it from this perpective much will be revealed...
jeffrey

Hi Steve,

QuoteThere is discussion in another current message board post about having Pluto at the exact cusp between two houses - this phenomena is quite similar.  One archetype is culminating, a new one is being birthed.  Prior to the actual conjunction, the dominant archetype is the old one.  Once the conjunction has occurred the dominant archetype is the new one - in that case there will still be traces of the old exhibited at times, as it is familiar and has been the prevailing m.o. for a long time.  Over time the imprint of the old progressively weakens and the archetype of the new progressively strengthens.

I'm interested in understanding that more. this seems to imply that there was an actual past relative to the house that is prior to the conjunction. This is different than saying that the natal Pluto will express itself as a transitional energy with the emphasis on the house that it's actually in (which does not imply anything that has to do with familiarity with an m.o from the previous house). I'm seeking more clarification on this topic. Thanks!

the rest of this discussion took place on the house cusp/porphyry thread.

Hi Ari

It's pretty simple, really.  It all goes back to the principle of a subconscious past, and what defines our sense of security.  For almost all of us, security equates to what is known, consciously and subconsciously.  When an archetype is culminating, it means patterns that have been in place a long time are coming to a head.  The feelings are pretty familiar - that growing sense that something we have been really into, or defined ourselves by/as for a long time, no longer brings the satisfaction or meaning it once did.  In other words, something is in the process of ending. 

Emotionally, endings are often a mixed experience - simultaneous excitement, fear, sense of loss or grief,  and expectation of the new and what might be coming.    I describe it sometimes like winter - preceded by Fall, followed by Spring.  If you live in a harsh climate, nothing much is happening in winter. The outer can feel like death.  This is gradually followed by a rebirth, the first green of spring slowly appears.  At some point it is clearly no longer winter, it is now spring. 

But what is the difference between Dec 19th and Dec 24th?  between march 19th and march 24th?  We have changed a season within those few days, but to what degree can we feel that difference within? There is a subtle difference, on one side or the other, culminating or new, but close to that conjunction the difference is hard to consciously feel.

Similarly, planets crossing a house cusp or a changing signs.  We are either "almost there" or "have now reached the new" - the difference between those in our outer lives may not be very significant.  And yet, one or the other will be the dominant archetype.  And culminating (balsamic phase) and new (new phase) have their own inherent archetypes and thus are quite different.

As far as "actual past relative to the house prior to the conjunction", the way I look at it is - everything new, by definition, was preceded by something we now call "old" - a past.  Thus there is subconscious memory of what came before, and our need for security and safety causes us at times to want to retreat back to what previously made us feel that way. 

Jeffrey made the point many times that life, and thus astrology, is not linear.  Having Neptune in the 9th house by 4 minutes (just past the 8th house) does not necessarily imply that in the last life it was at the end of the 8th house.  There are many ways an archetype can manifest in a chart.  They might have had a stelium in late Pisces, or in the 12th house (perhaps in Scorpio), for example.  They could have had a number of planets in late degrees, in stressful aspects to Neptune and Pluto. 

The point is, the past that the new has just released from is represented by subconscious habit patterns, behaviors, emotional patterns, orientations, interests - ways of looking at life.  Those are what has culminated.   That doesn't mean they are GONE - it just means the center of gravity within that consciousness has now shifted to the new, even if only a tiny amount.

The new phase and Aries represent a lot of freedom, and a need for that.  At the same time, nothing is very clear - its all new and instinctual.  At times the person can feel they have no idea what they are doing or where they are going.  When stressed, that does not cause one to feel secure.  At such times the subconscious appeal of an unseen past that represented safety can at times be quite strong. 

The problem, as I said in that other post, is the foot has outgrown the sneaker that represents safety.  The person increasingly sees when trying to go back to the old that its just not having the same effect it used to.  Instead of feeling safe, they feel stifled - "been there, done that". Thus they wind up again thrown back on themselves - the old patterns are not working.  Gradually they learn through experience (new phase) that the only real solution is embrace the unknown and "not knowing", out of which gradually come new answers, solutions, and directions.    Gradually the hold of the past weakens, and the new directions start cutting new grooves in the brain.  The grooves of old outmoded patterns gradually erode away.  And gradually that old past loses its hold over the present.

This is a cyclical process - the day will come when what is now new itself becomes that which is outmoded, no longer serving the growth needs - becomes itself the archetype that is now culminating, as life pushes the person forward towards an even newer new.

Some of these cycles take a series of lives to complete.  Most of us don't remember what came before this life - its influence on us is subconscious.  Thus again affected by the influences of a forgotten past, without even realizing that.  When planets are near or have crossed a cusp, the intent is to start letting go of, or to really release from, what has come before.

Thanks Steve, that made a lot of sense. What are the differneces between transitions that involve angular houses as opposed to succedent as opposed to cadent? My observations is that angular house transitions are definitely intense which makes sense given their cardinal nature. Does ea ascribe the same importance for succedent and cadent?

Hi - Cardinal houses are intense because they represent major shifts or turning points - the natural squares/oppositions/conjunctions in the chart.

EA places a lot of importance on phases.  There are 8 phases in a circle, which makes every 45 degrees the beginning of the next phase.  Phases come in pairs, yang and yin, representing 90 degrees, 1/4 of the totality.  This is another reason cardinal is significant. 

I was going to link to an old transcript by Jeffrey on the cycle of phases and aspects, but I see its not on the website.  If you'd like to see this let me know and I'll post a link here.  Looking at houses and signs and aspects through the filter of phases sheds a lot of light on their significance, and the archetypes of the division of quadrants into thirds.  Basically, cardinal initiates (the new, as I described previously), fixed grounds and stabilizes what was initiated in cardinal, and mutable is like the culmination of the previous two, mutating into whatever is coming next, the pattern repeating again starting in the cardinal sign/house that follows.

The 15 degree midpoint of each of the fixed signs/houses corresponds to the beginning of the yin phase in the cycle of phases, as each phase is 45 degrees.  It's the midpoint between two adjacent cardinal points, in essence like the full moon point - half way through the current quarter of the cycle. 

In the system of 12 divisions, each quadrant has either yang-yin-yang or yin-yang-yin.   That transition from yang to yin and back itself is not easy, because we get used to the way it has been - yang is energy going OUT - yin requires the energy to reverse direction and go back to the center - like putting on the brakes when we have gotten used to stepping on the gas.  And vice versa - after a long stretch in yin we are used to being inward, and its an adjustment to start orienting outward again.  Back and forth, back and forth - stretching us, working us. 

The cardinal signs/houses contain their own paradoxes.  Cardinal is an instinctual need to initiate change.  Our sense of security is based on sameness, not on change.  Thus the very nature of cardinal insures that at certain points we are going to freak out a bit, because all the change we have been instinctually creating results in a loss of familiarity and known-ness.  This, at key points, results in the the loss of an emotional sense of safety/security, leading to a desire to STOP, to want to go inward to emotionally regroup - to ground and stabilize the new realities we have been initiating.  This is an inherent  and necessary part of the cardinal archetype.  It's especially pronounced in Cancer, but applies to all cardinal signs/houses - two steps forward, one step back.  The natural need to regroup and reground after taking two steps into new directions.  After a period of timeout, the cardinal instinct to initiate change again takes over, and we are back pursuing the next step forward again.

Hi Pam

Good, glad to help. 

I should post a mini-ad here also - we are in the final stages of getting Jeffrey's old workshop DVD's ready for sale.  My favorite one is Cycles of Becoming, which is 4 hours long.  The first hour is about the Transition of the Ages, from Pisces to Aquarius.  The next 3 hours are about phases and aspects.  I highly recommend this workshop to those serious about osmosing the EA paradigm.

When I was first learning EA, my first real breakthroughs in correlating EA mental "teachings"  with people's actual life events, patterns, behaviors, began when I started seeing the patterns of phases playing out in the life events and tendencies of people whose charts I was reading.  (I'm not claiming that everyone who studies EA is going to have a big breakthrough from learning about phases.  Just sharing my own experience.  For me, it made it all very real.)

The phases material is covered in much depth in the Pluto School courses.  But the Cycles of Becoming workshop goes into a lot more detail.  What I found is once I started grasping the natural paradigm of phases, it completely changed how I viewed the phenomenon of aspects. 

I began seeing them as milemarkers, marking out points of completion and change along the archetypal journey around a circle of a cycle.  (actually, more like one revolution around a 3 dimensional spiral than completing a 2 dimensional circle).  Each part of the circle (the journey) has its own archetypes.  The beginning (conjunction) is the birth of a new chapter.  All beginnings have Aries-like qualities - instinctual.  So we start seeing these archetypes not just in charts but taking place in outer and inner life - in a person's life, in the shifting of the seasons in nature, in the creation maturing and decay of cultures and civilizations - patterns, archetypes  which are the ways the Divine principles behind all creation manifest in dualistic time-space reality - through these blueprints, the archetypes. 

Other astrologers, such as Dane Rudhyar, had written about cycles and phases before.  But Jeffrey greatly deepened the concepts and applied them to all the planets and aspects, and all the spheres of life.

Anyway, wanted to let people know this excellent workshop DVD will shortly be available on the School of EA website.
Steve

Thanks Steve for this additional information.

 I am awaiting that 'paradigm shift' which happens when various differing source materials on the same subject are intensely studied.  This type of viewpoint alteration has come over me several times in the past, and I am eagerly looking forward when the EA Paradigm 'glasses' slip down over my mind's eye.

 To that end, the more information which can be studied with intensity, the better, since a certain phrase said in several ways can often allow one of those ways to 'boing' against one's own mind in a special personal way.  Personally, it seems that rereading, with full and absolute concentration, right before falling asleep allows the mind to continually review the information during sleep.
 I would like to suggest an attempt of that process to anyone who has difficulty with absorbing the intricacies of the EA Paradigm.  By the way, this is really a great way that you put it: "...osmosing the EA paradigm".

 In the front of JWG's book on 'Uranus: Freedom from the Known' , there is a listing of a large variety of JWG's study materials (video tapes, audio tapes, transcripts) for distribution.  I was wondering about the items in that listing, and am glad to see the EA Community preparing to provide additional study materials for the students.

Blessings to You, and thanks again,
Stephen

"Or, alternatively, ask a child what they seek, and they will almost always request immediate gratification or something material, as perhaps is expected in a consensus-reality Soul.  "

One thing to consider is that there are few words used to request emotional/mental/spiritual/heart needs by anyone of any age.  When someone does request those needs, sometimes they are given repressive/oppressive/"false" responses from people.

Also, immediate gratification is important in an environment where you are no given the means to build relationships, daily choices, etc.  Ageism creates poverty and ignorance consciousness. (Actually, lack of love does that, but ageism is one "symptom")

I have seen others post websites here not directly EA, so here
is a good website:   www.consensual-living.com  It comes closest out of what I have seen in beginning on the basis that every person knows what they need no matter what age, is equal, and trusts the other is being honest.

Seesaw

Seesaw - is english not your primary language?  Not to sound rude!  I am having difficutly understanding what you are talking about.

Folks sure do have the words to ask for what they want!  I'm not sure what you meant.  Second, I have no idea what 'ageism' is.

Once again, the idea of 'immediate gratification' being important when not being able to 'build a relationship' - ?

I have no idea what you're talking about & perhpas this is because you do not speak english well.

What's this to do with evolutionary astrology?  I'll be interested to hear if anyone else knows what you're saying!  Sorry - but, maybe this forum is not what you're seeking?

Quote from: seesaw on Dec 19, 2009, 03:04 PM
"Or, alternatively, ask a child what they seek, and they will almost always request immediate gratification or something material, as perhaps is expected in a consensus-reality Soul.  "

One thing to consider is that there are few words used to request emotional/mental/spiritual/heart needs by anyone of any age.  When someone does request those needs, sometimes they are given repressive/oppressive/"false" responses from people.

Also, immediate gratification is important in an environment where you are no given the means to build relationships, daily choices, etc.  Ageism creates poverty and ignorance consciousness. (Actually, lack of love does that, but ageism is one "symptom")

I have seen others post websites here not directly EA, so here
is a good website:   www.consensual-living.com  It comes closest out of what I have seen in beginning on the basis that every person knows what they need no matter what age, is equal, and trusts the other is being honest.

Seesaw

Hi Lucius,
I'm new to EA - I've just started the course.  As I was thinking about your questions re: seesaw's post, what occurred to me was the emphasis that Jeffrey Green puts on understanding the culture in which a person is born into and is raised in.  I think that is the best way to approach seesaw's post.  Immediate gratification comes about, I believe he/she is saying when one's culture does not encourage genuine/meaningful relationship development/connection.  (I'm about to be booted off the public computer, so I have to end here.  I hope this makes sense...j)

Ellen

Perhaps, Ellen, that is what is meant.  However, I do not agree!  Immediate gratification does not seem to be cultural, at least, not in the context that was being discussed - i.e., children and how to discern their evolutionary state.  Acutally, from what was posted it would seem the evolutionary state would correlate to more 'maturity' with regard to desires & their gratification, entirely aside and separate from cultural conditioning (i.e., a three year old in a consensus state won't react too differently across the board socially/culturally - it would also be true that a spiritual state three year old would not seek such immediate gratification also generally true despite social/culture condition - that's my grasp of the idea, anyway) .  Seesaw appeared to replying to that post/quote saying the fact that most folks are consensus and merely, blindly, 'desire' and desire most of what is set in front of them and they perceive they don't 'have'.  Seesaw quoted that apparently to give some rebuttal but, to my mind,  didn't refute this at all - but seemed to go on about...well, something and perhaps because of a language barrier I truly didn't get what the point was.  And if what you say is Seesaw's point - still makes no sense to me!

Still not sure what 'ageism' is.  Thanks for 'translating' and your thoughts!  

To Ellen/Lucius:

Seesaw has been informed 3 times, in response to his self-centered needy unrelated-to-Evolutionary-Astrology posts, that this is a website for discussing Evolutionary Astrology as taught by Jeffrey Wolf Green.  His first post included statements of sympathy for misunderstood pedophiles, and it has not progressed much since then.

As you can see by his lack of response to both of your posts, he is not interested in dialog. He wants an audience to listen to his perspectives, and to tell him how to fill his unresolved need for love. Since neither of you fulfilled those intents of his, there is no response.

He has not gotten the message, clearly demonstrated by his posting a URL to a totally unrelated website aligned with his world views, exactly what he has been told 3 times this message board is not for.  Therefore he is now banned from this message board.

Thanks for trying to communicate this message to Seesaw.  Unfortunately he is not ready to hear it.
Steve

Seesaw,

Hope you don't mind me adding to what has been communicated to you by others before. (On the other topics too that you started)
I try to approach it in a different way: seems like love is an important subject for you so I thought for this holiday season I share my thoughts with you; of course you can take it or leave it.

You see, love is not about demanding what we need or want (or think we want) - it is about to tune in and be able to perceive and GIVE what someone else REALLY needs or wants....that's where the basics of so called 'love' starts...

I truly hope you'd be able to develop that ability one day for THEN you'll discover that the world around you has always been filled with love - you just haven't noticed it before...

"There is a song silently singing in the depth of every soul; the people whose soul carry a beautiful song will 'hear' and 'see' everyone and everything as part of that beautiful song...." (rough interpretation from Hungarian lyrics)

So it's not about others, it's about the 'song' in your soul ...once you 'tune' to a different inner 'melody' you will experience a different world....when your soul can sing the inner song of love only then you won't be "˜without it' ever again....and that has nothing to do with anyone else, only you....

Once your soul can "˜sing' that kind of a "˜song' you'll even discover that these EA notes to you were indeed filled with what you thought you were missing ....

Blessings and happy holidays,
Lia
P.S sorry guys for the 'off topic' :-)

Quote from: Lucius on Dec 20, 2009, 07:26 PM
Immediate gratification does not seem to be cultural, at least, not in the context that was being discussed - i.e., children and how to discern their evolutionary state.  Acutally, from what was posted it would seem the evolutionary state would correlate to more 'maturity' with regard to desires & their gratification, entirely aside and separate from cultural conditioning (i.e., a three year old in a consensus state won't react too differently across the board socially/culturally - it would also be true that a spiritual state three year old would not seek such immediate gratification also generally true despite social/culture condition - that's my grasp of the idea, anyway) .  
Still not sure what 'ageism' is.  Thanks for 'translating' and your thoughts!  

Hi Lucius,

Just want to make sure I'm understanding you correctly.  I believe you are making a distinction between evolutionary state and maturity level - that one cannot discern evolutionary state by ascertaining level of maturity.  Is this correct?  My thinking was that a child exhibiting "immediate gratification" tendencies would be more likely to be in a consensus state, but I believe you are saying that this is not true.....?  I think I had in mind the story of the Dalai Lama, in which the Chinese gave all the kids some ice cream, and when the Dalai Lama (then a young child) did not immediately eat it up, they figured he must be the one.  (Sorry for the delay in response - no internet at home and don't always have the chance to make it to a public one or internet bar...)

Thanks for your thoughts,
Ellen

Hi Steve,

Thanks for the clarification/background information.

Ellen

No - immediate gratification is a trait of the consensus....Steve posted about it earlier in the thread.  I was saying that the desire for gratification is not different across cultures/societies for the most part - a Lakota indian three year old in consensus will want what she wants as much as an Asian three year old in a supermarket.  It is, indeed, the evolutionary, not cultural, context that may change desire, i.e., gratification. 

Perhaps my post was confusing because I was flummoxed by Seesaw's strange ideas about gratification & lack of meaningful relationships - that correlation makes zero sense to me.  To use an ice cream 3 year old example - most three year olds will want ice cream whether or not they have close, meaningful relationships.  And, sure, those in a spiritual state might deal better with a situation of being promised ice cream and then not getting it.

So, I think we're agreeing! 

Hi Lucius,

Yes, I agree - I think we're agreeing.  Perhaps when one is transitioning from a consensus to an individuated state, one can fall into the trap of blaming culture for one's felt sense of alienation rather than recognizing that there is simply a shift occuring in oneself that is indicating positive growth/change.....?  I think I was confused on this point myself.  Thanks for the exchange.  I learned a lot!

Ellen

Hi

If you want to get metaphysical about it, "children" (in reality, Souls inhabiting small bodies) are coming here straight out of the astral, where every thought/desire manifests right before your eyes.  Is it any wonder they expect "instant gratification"?  They are not yet (once again) used to earth reality, where the law of Time is present, where desires are not instantly fulfilled.    To me the reaction of a child wanting "instant gratification", is not so much a function of a level of spiritual evolution, its part of an adjustment process that all Souls must go through.

A difference between more evolved "Souls as children" and consensus "Souls as children" is the more evolved Souls would be more conscious of the nature of this reality from past experience, and thus have more context / perspective, thus be able to more rapidly adapt and accept the inherent limitations of life in a 3 dimensional child body. 

Not too many Souls are excited about the opportunity of entering yet another body where they can feel limited and constricted - that's not too hard to grasp!  It comes down to the capacity to accept the limitations, to realize WHY they are being imposed - to further that Soul's evolution, and hopefully that, along the way, also serves others.  The more evolved Souls will inherently remember this and thus their behaviors may be more tempered than the more typical 3 year old's.

We also live in a consumer culture that feeds the immediate gratification impulse in children, on purpose, to create life-long patterns of consuming (feel bad?  go shopping), to sustain our economic system.  So children "get used to" that impulse being immediately fulfilled, and then they start to expect it as a right.  Behaviors that are pretty common in adults too.  That is an example of societal conditioning, of creating values that are not natural, that ultimately have an ulterior motive - to benefit someone else at the expense of the individual so conditioned.
Steve

Quote from: Steve on Dec 23, 2009, 09:46 AM
To me the reaction of a child wanting "instant gratification", is not so much a function of a level of spiritual evolution, its part of an adjustment process that all Souls must go through.

We also live in a consumer culture that feeds the immediate gratification impulse in children, on purpose, to create life-long patterns of consuming (feel bad?  go shopping), to sustain our economic system.  So children "get used to" that impulse being immediately fulfilled, and then they start to expect it as a right.  Behaviors that are pretty common in adults too.  That is an example of societal conditioning, of creating values that are not natural, that ultimately have an ulterior motive - to benefit someone else at the expense of the individual so conditioned.
Steve

Hi Steve,
Thank you!  That clarifies a lot and makes perfect sense (ie, the Soul having to go through an adjustment process).  I am wondering if, given what you wrote re: societal conditioning, which also makes perfect sense, you can comment more specifically about what I wrote - the idea that a person transitioning from a consensus to an individuated state, not understanding what is happening, may blame society for its newly felt sense of alienation.  On the one hand, there is the social conditioning, which is true.  On the other hand, there is the need for personal responsibility.  But perhaps this is no longer appropriate for this topic - perhaps at this point, it is no longer children we are talking about, but adults...?  Perhaps this has been part of the confusion from the start...

Much appreciation,
Ellen

hi Ellen

Quotethe idea that a person transitioning from a consensus to an individuated state, not understanding what is happening, may blame society for its newly felt sense of alienation.  On the one hand, there is the social conditioning, which is true.  On the other hand, there is the need for personal responsibility. 

yes those things can be true.  The hallmark of stage 1 indiv is a feeling of being different and not wanting to be different, trying to hide the differences, compensating by acting "normal" (i.e. how everyone else does).  Typically the true "normal" people can see there is something different about that person anyway.

If the person is of a masochistic temperament they could blame self for their sense of alienation "What is wrong with me?, why can't I be like everyone else?".   Whereas others would blame external forces, victimization (a Pisces attribute).

As the Soul evolves into the higher forms of the individuated stage it learns that feeling alienated is part of the price it must pay for being an individual, since at least 70% of people (consensus) are not individuals (don't think for themselves).  To a person who follows the herd, a person who thinks for self is perceived as threatening. 

People follow the herd because they believe that brings security - acceptance by the mass of the group.  The individuated person has begun to notice that this acceptance is dependent on conforming to the collective's (conditioned) beliefs/values, that when one's views are contrary, the acceptance disappears.  Thus that is not real security at all.  The ultimate lesson is that the only true security is within. 

Most of us have been conditioned to look without for security.  That becomes the source of the alienation- "so few see things as I do".  At first it feels lonely and limiting.  Through following that path one becomes increasingly aware of their own uniqueness - which becomes increasingly liberating.  Thus the price of alienation is balanced by increased self-awareness.  Souls making the transition from consensus to individuated don't yet have that increased self-awareness.  Thus they may experience more of the detrimental aspects of that process, and so resist it.

To tie this back to the evolutionary condition of children, when you see signs in a child of a capacity to be an individual, to not let the need for approval from others limit its forms of self-expression, who seems to understand in some deep way some essential things about the nature of life, is described by others as being wise beyond their years, these are signs of a Soul that is in a more advanced evolutionary state.  Signs of this can be seen from early childhood.  They are going to FEEL all that alienation - it does not go away in the spiritual state - if anything it intensifies - but it can be better accepted in the spiritual state - the Soul has come to take it as a given.  Whether they LIKE it is another issue altogether - acceptance is required.   The same sort of questions or signs you would look for in an adult in terms of determining evolutionary stage can be applied to a child - they are just going to express these words or attitudes in ways aligned with the way a child will think.  They are still a child, even if the soul is very highly evolved.   The working of these things is what EA calls Natural Law - it is the way that life is, that life actually works, regardless of what I think about those ways.  Its simply What Is, self-evident.

Thanks so much, Steve.  I think I understand what I need to for now...

Ellen

Thanks Steve for going deeper into the evolutionary states.

I've thought & posted (old board, I think) that Capricorn/Saturn does not have to be a negative manifestation - that it is now, and for quite awhile now, is a result of human consciousness being relatively less open to Source - if I am understanding the Yugas, or cosmic cycles properly.  In other ages where human consciousness was relatively open to Spirit the consensus would be vastly different.  I am thinking of this because of the Lakota consensus vs. modern consensus child example- or I should say a kid in a store.  The lakota child would be consensus & adopting the prevailing social norms, beliefs etc. without much thought however the room to evolve naturally & the social structure being in tune with natural law would be a rather different situation than the child growing up in a high-chair in front of a movie they watch ten times a day, etc.  I guess it's clear that if humans are to survive & the earth to be healed consensus society needs to have natural law as it's structure - seems a long way off though.  How long is this Kali yuga, now?  ;)

I would add that in natural law, first there is natural 'democracy' and that spiritual elders are the leaders not power hungry, greedy know-nothings.  It's interesting to observe the different trajectories of European culture vs. what we call indigenous or 'native'.

By the way - that article that was posted on the old 'uraniaweb' board - ?  All about cycles, consciousness - completely amazing!  I printed it out, but, afraid it's in a perpetually packed box - any chance of posting it here, again?

Thanks for letting me post my thoughts!

I was reading this morning from 'native american healing' by Howard P. Bad Hand & came across some guidance his uncle was giving him that perfectly illustrates the positive message of Capricorn/Saturn I thought I'd share:

'We have to know capability, ability, and how far we can stretch things, but we must also know how to define and discrimninate the difference between good and evil.  In the world, this is the backbone of people's behavior.  The rules of conduct, the rules of behavior, morality.  When you look out in the world, when you look at a tree, and you see it's beauty, and you see it's perfection as a living entity, when you wake up one day and realize that the beauty and perfection of that tree came about because of the boundaries that define what it is, you'll realize that life is not meant to be a path of unlimited possibilities.  Unlimited possibilities for human kind would make human kind dissolve into the boundless......We attain free spirit when we surround ourselves with these boundaries, and by these boundaries, we determine for ourselves what our duty is....this leads to the proper relationship between you and the Spirit World, between you and the service you provide, and it allows people to know what to ask of you because your conduct, your behavior, will show them."

Thought folks here would enjoy that!

What an incredible manifestation, and validation, of the NATURAL LAWS of from the ORIGINAL SPIRIT OF ALL. Thanks for sharing this Lucius.

Rad

Hi Lucius and all,

Yeah, what a great expression about the natural capr. values and roles within our manifested creation - the true relationship between spirit and manifestation.....
Like to add that those people who were manifesting the natural capr. values within patriarchy (either as a person or as a group of people) have been most scapegoated, judged, opressed and crashed...

Thanks for sharing this!

Lia

That's beautiful Lucius. I just got two clients in a row with some combination of the Pisces Capricorn archetypes in their chart. It's a perfect quote for a soul that is learning how to accept the spiritual importance of boundaries.

A question occurred to me tonight while contemplating a child and her parents charts.

Would consensus children ever be born to parents that were either in individuated or spiritual states. If so, can you explain? And does anyone have an example.

If not, can you explain?  


Curiously,
Dhyana

Hi Dhyana,

Yes, this can and has happened on this Earth. And there is no one explanation for it as all evolutionary and karmic conditions are unique and specific to each Soul including the parents who would have such a child.

God Bless, Rad

Thank you Rad, that is what I figured.  But do you think it may be more of a rare occurrence for parents in higher evolutionary conditions to have consensus children, or no?

It is more of a challenge to discern the evolutionary condition of a child than an adult (to me at least). Having children myself, and having a lot of children around me --their friends in our house regularly and many nieces and nephews,etc. , I have noticed that children have a strong need to conform to their enviornment, especially to their peers.  
If they have a strong Capricorn, 10th house or Saturn, it seems to me, that it is even harder to discern.

However, I remember when Deva had said that in discerning the evolutionary state of a child, look and see their bottom line, and if there is a "alienation" from the group.
I have noticed that almost all the children and the friends that end up at my home (more than once at least) have some kind of "alienation from the group" feeling going on.
When Deva said that that really helped. Now is there a really good clue (like the alienation one that Deva gave) to discern consensus children. I seem to be having a hard time with this one with children!  Hmmm  ??? If at any given time, 70% are consensus, I don't know why I should be having such a hard time seeing this one  :-\  What am I missing?
Any comments?

Thanks,
Dhyana

Hi Dhyana,

I would say that it is not common for parents who themselves have evolved to the spiritual condition to have children in the consensus. I don't think I would use the word 'rare' to describe this, but simply not common.

It can quite difficult to know the evolutionary condition of a child when very young. As ever it does come down to observation and correlation but that normally requires some time to assess correctly. There are no magic techniques to employ: only observation over an amount of time can lead to the right understanding.

God Bless, Rad

Thank you Rad, for taking the time to respond,

I understand.