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Hi All,  Happy Pisces  ;)

Let us begin the journey of exploring the Pisces/12th house archetype.  

So to begin with, one of the key correlations of the pisces/12th house house archetype, is the correlation of the transcendent impulse which is intrinsic to human consciousness.  It is this impulse that makes us aware of the ultimate reality that exists beyond space and time, and the immutable nature of the soul; i.e. consciousness is not dependent on the human form for it's existence, it exists independently of it, and is in fact the cause of the physical body being born when the soul initiates a new incarnatation in time/space reality.  

The transcendental impulse makes us aware that there is something more than our ego..the soul..and it makes us aware that there is something greater than our soul..God'dess.  The function served by the transcendental impulse in our consciousness operates as the primary link through which our consciousness in human form is able to tune into, or perceive, the presence and will of the natural god'dess from within ourselves.  This function directly facilitates the spiritualization of consciousness as the soul evolves over many incarnations.  This happens through progressively sensitizing consciousness to the subtle natural laws that have been created by God'dess, which reflect the timeless reality that is not governed by or dependent upon space, time, or structure; and by progressively expanding one's self-awareness from the basic subjective density of the egocentric structure, to the dual simultaneous perception of the soul and the ego(s) that is currently living, and ultimately to a state of self-awareness where the perception of one's soul identity occurs in oneself and in others as a simultaneous inner reality.

A key example of this function is seen in the capacity that any soul can develop to consciously suspend the natural law of cause and effect within itself, in concentrated meditation.  As the law of cause and effect is suspended, the soul and the ego that is merged with it experiences the timeless state.  In this state, all interference associated the dynamic interplay of time and space..cause and effect..is suspended, which then allows for a direct perception of the natural godhead within, and a direct communion through which the soul is able to receive specific direction and knowledge that is relevant to who it is and the purpose that the natural god/dess is intending to do through  one's soul in the context of time/space reality.   Once the proof of this natural god is directed perceived for oneself, the soul's commitment to live for god'dess and god'dess only is progressively strengthened and total.  

The transcendental impulse can of course play a role in some very problematic conditions.  For example, if one's consciousness is experiencing a sensitized state over time, and there is no spiritual technique, discipline, or focus through which to integrate spiritual/timeless perceptions, there can be a very real danger of overwhelming consciousness into psychotic break because the rate at which these perceptions are occurring are not being properly regulated, and the interpretation of what is being perceived and why will tend to be referenced through the individual's existing emotional and psychological reality..their own inner stuff..versus through an archetypal, focused, accurate blueprint of natural spiritual law.  This can lead to conditions of delusions and illusions, paranoia, schizophrenic conditions, hysteria, catatonia, confusion, utter loss of emotional/psychological grounding in time/space/sociological reality, among many other possible things.  

As with all of the twelve natural archetypes our zodiac contains, there are key evolutionary processes and lessons that occur within the Pisces/12th house archetype.  For now I am naming only a couple.

One of these key processes is that of cyclicly dissolving all existing barriers in the soul that are preventing a direct relationship with the natural god.  This can occur in a variety of ways.  

One of these ways is through the exposure/confrontation of personal delusions, illusions, fantasies, false ideals and the like.  This evolutionary process will tend to occur when the soul's desire to spiritually progress through actualizing a total alignment of its inner and outer reality with the reality of God'dess, has reached a critical mass, and yet one or any combination of the aforementioned conditions are preventing that reality from being discovered, known, recognized, embraced, applied, etc.  

Another way the archetypal process of dissolving barriers can play out, is through the loss or enforced removal of that which is constituting ultimate meaning for the individual, when it is not the natural god and is directly undermining returning desire in the soul (dual desire nature of the soul: desire to separate, desire to return).  In the loss or removal of what has become the source of one's ultimate meaning, one is then left with a void.  This period can become very difficult, because it is through the foundation of ultimate meaning that we can be receptive to and able to find/create meaning and purpose for our current life.  When one's inner sense of ultimate meaning has seemingly been severed and no longer transferring to the circumstantial context of the life one is living, this can be analogous to removing all gasoline from the car and then demanding it to drive.  One knows that one must live and function, yet the temporary loss of emotionally and psychologically identifying why and what to function/live for in the first place, can lead into intensely challenging periods where one's consciousness is inundated by the psychology of futility..'what's the point'..'nothing means anything anyway'.  The archetypal test here is for the soul to endure and carry on through this period however long it may be (pisces= unquantifiable), even though the value, reason, aim, and meaning of one's existence is not being felt or recognized, and even though the knowledge of what will restore the ultimate sense of meaning is totally unknown or seemingly out of reach.  This is a piscean test that God'dess can give us, and is an act of supreme giving.  Supreme giving is a demonstration of unconditional love.  It is God'dess' unconditional love that allows false constructs of ultimate meaning to dissolve in our hands without anything to immediately replace it.  Here the soul experiences the piscean abyss, and learns to submit itself to the will and time of the Creator.  There comes a point, that Wolf called "˜a magic moment', where the void/abyss seemingly mutates into the birth of a new reality, of itself.  This type of lesson is a powerful developer of "˜faith'.  The inner experience of having lost everything that constitutes meaning in one's soul for an indefinite period of time, and the exhaustion of will and hope this can lead to, becomes its own potent experiential proof that there are larger and higher forces that the soul cannot predict or control.  There is a Higher Will that the soul can align it's personal will with, and in so doing, the soul learns to give that Higher Will it's ultimate trust.  In giving one's ultimate trust to that Higher Will (God'dess), one then experiences ultimate security.  When one has an inner sense of ultimate security, everything has meaning..everything has purpose.  It simply becomes a matter of the direction God'dess provides or inspires that becomes the determinant of what one will create through that meaning and purpose....co-creation: pisces.

Ok, there's a LOT more to cover and discuss in this archetype, so I'll leave it right here and let others jump in.

God Bless,
Stacie

Stacie, I'm speechless after reading this. You spoke the truth so deeply, thank you. That's all I have to say for now.

Stacie,

I would like to say that what you wrote is so beautiful,
and encapsulated the truth.  Truly a magic moment.
I will have a few questions later on.  For now, I will
wait for others to share their understanding of the
Pisces archetype.

Thank you for this thread.

Blissful Pisces everyone :D

Hello all,
Pisces points to the realization that life is what it, above and beyond a soul's hopes and wishes about what life is.

When a soul projects onto any aspect of reality as being the Ultimate reality (which is true for all souls until its not), a gradual process of disillusionment will occur. This often implies the necessity for a soul to remain fixed in certain environments, relationships etc until the soul truly just gives up. As Stacie pointed out, Pisces is unquantifiable- this could last for a long time.

For example if phishy is in a relationship with someone who can seemingly not meet phishy's relationship needs, phishy may say to himself, "So and so will love me. I will love them fully and they will realize their own beauty and open their heart". However, that someone will not change, and phishy will have to deal with that very simple reality. Life is already how it is, not what he wants it to be. To truly get this, then naturally, like opening his eyes for the first time, the TRUTH becomes revealed TO phishy. Phishy can actually can see who the other is, their total nature, which is far beyond what he imagined it to be. As a result, phishy experiences true compassion and at the same time neutrality.

Otherwise, phishy may experience extremes of behavior as a result of his delusional beliefs. On the one hand hope and waiting. And on the other hand, feeling like a martyr, victimized, drained and apathetic. The same issues will come up in any relationship that phishy gets into as all aspects of the oneness will be a mirror to his illusions.

I just appreciate what Stacie wrote about the blessing of fully experiencing the futility and hopelessness without trying to run to find or doing something to avoid the void. Otherwise, one illusion is simply replacing another illusion.

In totally giving up on our ideas of reality, we can forgive others and ourselves, and any [person, place thing, concept, god etc] for not being what we wanted it to be. True forgiveness implies being open to find out what IS, for the truth to be revealed.

Another thought that this brings up is the notion of prayer. Prayer, through the lens of Pisces is "not your will by mine. You show me what I am to see, you take me where you want me to go, only you are the truth". Such a prayer will be answered, although it may take a while, and a soul may have to go through a process of futility and emptiness in order to be cleansed of all false ideas.

During that time of emptiness, the soul can become confused, it can feel betrayed by God, and may try to fill the void with some meaning. A common form of "emptiness filling" is to constantly pursue the same dreams/delusions over and over and over again. This can become all consuming to the point that it actually becomes a living reality for the soul.
Love,
am

https://forum.schoolofevolutionaryastrology.com/index.php/topic,422.0.html (https://forum.schoolofevolutionaryastrology.com/index.php/topic,422.0.html)

That's a link to a post about hydraulic fracturing. It leads me to another facet of Pisces which is Miracles. The question I want to pose here is "when does a miracles occur, what are the conditions? What is a miracle from a Piscean point of view?"

Ari writes -
For example if phishy is in a relationship with someone who can seemingly not meet phishy's relationship needs, phishy may say to himself, "So and so will love me. I will love them fully and they will realize their own beauty and open their heart". However, that someone will not change, and phishy will have to deal with that very simple reality. Life is already how it is, not what he wants it to be. To truly get this, then naturally, like opening his eyes for the first time, the TRUTH becomes revealed TO phishy. Phishy can actually can see who the other is, their total nature, which is far beyond what he imagined it to be. As a result, phishy experiences true compassion and at the same time neutrality.

... "When a soul projects onto any aspect of reality as being the Ultimate reality (which is true for all souls until its not), a gradual process of disillusionment will occur. This often implies the necessity for a soul to remain fixed in certain environments, relationships etc until the soul truly just gives up."

O my -- you just nailed it!!!

Thank you.


PS.( Added later) I give up...

D

Hi Ari and Linda, and All..

I am grateful those words were received at the level intended.

Ari brings to light a critical issue within the pisces archetype..the tendency of human beings to project/displace ultimate meaning, as reflected in the natural function of "˜ultimate relationship'--our intended relationship with the Creator--onto human partners.  This is clearly symbolized in the natural yod pattern that archetypically operates through taurus, libra, pisces, which together reflect the core relationship archetype in its totality.  The natural rulers of these signs are venus and neptune, venus being the lower octave of neptune.  We can reflect on this pattern and why this dynamic so often tends to manifest as projection of ultimate relationship upon intimate human partners, and in turn, how the disillusionment occurring through those intimate partners when they are unable to measure up to the ultimate standards being projected upon them, so often lead to the projection of human nature upon our ultimate partner, God'dess.

I'll be back later this evening with some additional thoughts on this issue, as well as the question Ari posed regarding miracles.  In the meantime looking forward to hear other's comments as well.

Stacie

Checking in real quick.  Going to defer my comments a bit so I can give the brain some sleep.  

God'dess Bless

Hi Ari,

Getting back to your question about miracles and the correlation to pisces.  First let's agree that the defining factor in a miracle, is the fact that the nature of what is occurring and how it's occurring is happening outside of the known parameters of physical, social, or time-based laws.  Miracles defy the parameters of what we know to be possible and not possible within the context of the patterns and laws we observe defining and regulating our reality in the world.  

When one is given the blessing of being witness to a miracle, and is open enough to embrace the truth of what is happening, one tends to be struck to their depths with one core realization: there is more to this reality and it is not of this world.  The power of this realization can be so profound, that the entire basis of one's reality to date is shifted in a moment, and this effect can last for lifetimes.  The nature of that shift is that it turns an individual's awareness and attention to inner reality, like a magnet.  It has the effect of opening ones eyes to the unseen and the unnoticed.  It has the effect of opening one's ears to what is unheard.  It has the effect of creating an inner intuitive knowing that everything in one's reality can be changed by the most simple and unassuming factor--factors typically overlooked by the worldly thought process...and most important to this inner knowing, is the deep recognition which comes not from having it explained by another, but purely through inner resonance.  That recognition being this: There is a higher Force participating in our lives whether we know it, or see it, or feel it, or hear it, or not.  It is there.  And it knows our true needs.  It wants to help us answer those needs, and can be called upon for direction and/or intervention.  That Force has only one real requirement for giving itself in this way: full sincerity of heart in the recepient.  The nature of this sincerity is defined by a willingness to do what one can, and to accept whatever is given, even when what is given seems to be nothing.  All the natural god wants from us is our love.  When we approach that natural god from any other agenda, the medium through which love is mutually transferred becomes burdened with content that directly counteracts our ability to receive the response God'dess is giving in return.  Sincerity of heart has a power and quality that naturally puts everything else on mute.  It creates a pure inner focus.  And it is this condition that allows us to hear, know and recognize God'dess' intent and the specific help it is giving. When we recognize how God'dess is giving, and we then consciously cooperate with that help without attached expectation, the result can defy what our human reasoning may have considered impossible or improbable.  Or it can place us at the threshold of a door that we wouldn't have known or thought to walk through.  There is really no limit to the kind of outcomes that can occur when we approach god for help with nothing but our sincerity.  

God-realized souls who have the inner knowledge of natural timeless laws, and how these laws operate in this time-space world, who have established an inner alignment of personal will with Divine will that has resulted in the development of a direct path of inner Divine communication, can and do facilitate these kind of events..events we're calling miracles.  When this occurs it is by Divine inner direction.  These souls know that they are simply the agent and God is the doer.  That fact necessitates discrimination in who is permitted to witness such an event, as well as the extent of what they see.  This discrimination is necessary because there is a real human tendency to project ultimate relationship--the relationship that is natural to our consciousness and only God'dess has the *capacity* to fill--onto others who's inner divinity we may perceive, yet are still external to us.  

When one is given the blessing to know such a soul directly in life, one is wise to cultivate an inner relationship with that soul while the external relationship is in place, because if one remains or becomes dependent on external contact/interaction/physical proximity/dialogue, it can be difficult adjusting and/or accepting the natural end of the external contact when that time occurs, and opportunities will have been missed to integrate external experience with internal experience in a way that allows that relationship to be internally self-sufficient. But much more importantly, one must make a serious and conscious effort to apply an external relationship of this nature to the development and deepening of one's direct inner relationship with the godhead.  If this is not done, it is all too easy to displace the profound desire that one may have to know God'dess, onto the soul that God'dess is working through. This can then compete with one's motivation to go inward and know God'dess directly for oneself.  I don't mean to make this too specific to the circumstance of knowing a god-realized soul directly in one's life...these words are just as relevant to forming a relationship to a god-realized soul from a distance through media, writings, stories, imagery and so on.  

Along these same lines, it cannot be denied that there is a prevailing human tendency to unconsciously project the function of ultimate inner relationship onto intimate human partners and those who are playing other relevant social roles in a person's life.  This of course is all graphically reflected in the natural yod pattern that is linked to pisces/12th, taurus/2nd, libra/7th, which I mentioned earlier.  There is more I can say about this, but want to see first what the interest is, and if anyone feels compelled to take a stab in interpreting this dynamic first.  In our current age of socialized co-dependency, it is a very critical dynamic to understand.  

God Bless,
Stacie

Thanks Stacie for such in-depth perspective on Pisces.

Quote from: Stacie on Feb 21, 2011, 01:04 PM
Another way the archetypal process of dissolving barriers can play out, is through the loss or enforced removal of that which is constituting ultimate meaning for the individual, when it is not the natural god and is directly undermining returning desire in the soul (dual desire nature of the soul: desire to separate, desire to return).  In the loss or removal of what has become the source of one's ultimate meaning, one is then left with a void.  This period can become very difficult, because it is through the foundation of ultimate meaning that we can be receptive to and able to find/create meaning and purpose for our current life.  When one's inner sense of ultimate meaning has seemingly been severed and no longer transferring to the circumstantial context of the life one is living, this can be analogous to removing all gasoline from the car and then demanding it to drive.  One knows that one must live and function, yet the temporary loss of emotionally and psychologically identifying why and what to function/live for in the first place, can lead into intensely challenging periods where one's consciousness is inundated by the psychology of futility..'what's the point'..'nothing means anything anyway'.  

GOD I CAN RELATE TO THIS--I FEEL THIS WAY NOW...VERY UNCOMFORTABLE, GREAT TO READ SUCH AN ACCURATE DESCRIPTION OF WHAT PISCES ENERGY CAN EXPERIENCE

The archetypal test here is for the soul to endure and carry on through this period however long it may be (pisces= unquantifiable), even though the value, reason, aim, and meaning of one's existence is not being felt or recognized, and even though the knowledge of what will restore the ultimate sense of meaning is totally unknown or seemingly out of reach.  I LIKE THIS AS A GOOD DEFINITION OF A MIRACLE

This is a piscean test that God'dess can give us, and is an act of supreme giving.  Supreme giving is a demonstration of unconditional love.  It is God'dess' unconditional love that allows false constructs of ultimate meaning to dissolve in our hands without anything to immediately replace it.  Here the soul experiences the piscean abyss, and learns to submit itself to the will and time of the Creator.  There comes a point, that Wolf called "˜a magic moment', where the void/abyss seemingly mutates into the birth of a new reality, of itself.  This type of lesson is a powerful developer of "˜faith'.  

The inner experience of having lost everything that constitutes meaning in one's soul for an indefinite period of time, and the exhaustion of will and hope this can lead to, becomes its own potent experiential proof that there are larger and higher forces that the soul cannot predict or control.  There is a Higher Will that the soul can align it's personal will with, and in so doing, the soul learns to give that Higher Will it's ultimate trust.  In giving one's ultimate trust to that Higher Will (God'dess), one then experiences ultimate security.  When one has an inner sense of ultimate security, everything has meaning..everything has purpose.  It simply becomes a matter of the direction God'dess provides or inspires that becomes the determinant of what one will create through that meaning and purpose....co-creation: pisces.

God Bless,
Stacie

Hi Ari,

Quote from: ari moshe on Feb 22, 2011, 09:43 PM
Another thought that this brings up is the notion of prayer. Prayer, through the lens of Pisces is "not your will by mine. You show me what I am to see, you take me where you want me to go, only you are the truth". Such a prayer will be answered, although it may take a while, and a soul may have to go through a process of futility and emptiness in order to be cleansed of all false ideas.
THIS MAKES ME WONDER IF THIRD STAGE SPIRITUAL IS PISCEAN?

During that time of emptiness, the soul can become confused, it can feel betrayed by God, and may try to fill the void with some meaning. A common form of "emptiness filling" is to constantly pursue the same dreams/delusions over and over and over again. This can become all consuming to the point that it actually becomes a living reality for the soul.ARI can you give a specific example of this?

Love,
am

Blessings,
Wendy

Stacy thank you so much for your sharing on miracles. I feel this thread is so timely for me.

The notion of "longing" to me is also a Pisces phenomena. Stacy said that when a true miracles is witnessed, it can have a lasting effect on a soul for lifetimes. I don't know what I've experienced in the past, but I know that it has had a deep impact on me- one that probably shifted me into the spiritual state. This is symbolized by my nodal rulers both in a balsamic conjunction to Neptune.

Around the time that Pluto began moving over these planets I experienced a period of immense longing. A longing that was utterly painful for me. Eventually I got real tired.

QuoteDuring that time of emptiness, the soul can become confused, it can feel betrayed by God, and may try to fill the void with some meaning. A common form of "emptiness filling" is to constantly pursue the same dreams/delusions over and over and over again. This can become all consuming to the point that it actually becomes a living reality for the soul.ARI can you give a specific example of this?

A common example of this would be dimensia, alzheimers and the likes. I just looked up Charelton Heston's chart and he had Neptune Venus conjunct the nn, opposing Uranus, and a Sun in Libra in the 12th.

A specific example I am aware of. My grandmother has some form of dimensia. She can't remember much in terms of short term memory. Her south node is in Gemini in the 12th with Pluto in the second house.  Her parents and family were all killed in the holocaust, she was married to a very abusive and angry man for many decades, her daughter abandoned her etc. As far as I understand it, She avoided conflict and never faced the void- never dealt with the suffering in her life. She just seems to have live life in a fun and positive way; always distracting her mind with new activity all of the time. Many people who know her seem to admire her ability to "stay positive all the time", and some even think that it's great that she has dimensia.

Of course I see a lifetime of escapism. The ideas she has about her dead husband, her family, her past, the world, israel etc- all reflect a story that she has created for herself that has become so all encompassing that she only knows that story. I feel there are better examples than this. I'll share one if it comes up for me.

Hi Stacie,

Just a few thoughts regarding the Pisces archetype in its natural opposition/squares:

Being too busy with too many activities correlates to the fact that the unseen dimension, the God dimension, is not embraced or felt, but denied or ignored.  This means resistance to a facet of our psyche, separating from the Source or wholeness, and may bring crisis (Virgo square Pisces)...... Oooops! I meant Virgo opposite Pisces!  ;)

Pondering and wonderment could be necessary to lift one away from the mundane, and expand one's horizons and vibration (Sag square Pisces).  Also, to let the mind run free sometimes - not taking it so seriously - and just observing it (Gemini square Pisces).  

Hi All,

Wendy, neptune is indeed an accurate correlation of the third stage spiritual.  Every evolutionary stage and substage has a primary correlation to specific archetypes.  The spiritual state in total correlates to pisces/neptune.  Within the core rulership (if thats the right word) of pisces, there are sub-correlations of each of the 3 spiritual sub-stages.  

The first stage spiritual has a sub-correlation to the archetype of virgo.  This is reflecting the progressive humiliation and devotion of the soul as it enters into progressive spiritualization of its consciousness, where the structure of reality is also realigned in a way that becomes a direct reflection of the soul's connection to Spirit.  This is one reason karma yoga is so key to the first stage spiritual..it allows one to 'live' their connection to spirit by merging that relationship into the daily work function.  

The second stage spiritual has a subcorrelation to the archetype of leo.  This is reflecting the condition where the ego has become full of inflated/grandiose conceptions of its own spiritual importance/power, and the lovely process which follows of disillusioning and deflating the ego through humiliation, often by way of some manner of a 'fall from grace'.  The fall from grace is relative to the drama/imagery playing out through the grand spiritual role (starring the ego), where its trying to position itself as center of the cosmos.  

Pisces is the archetype correlating to the 3rd spiritual substage, and as mentioned, is also the primary archetype for the spiritual condition in total.  The correlation of pisces to the 3rd spiritual substage reflects the progressive development/realization of cosmic consciousness, and the dissolution of all impurities, desires, barriers that remain in the soul until only one desire is left.  We know what that is.  

Ari.. yes, definitely, 'longing' is very much a part of the pisces archetype.  What this is reflecting, regardless of the specific imagery that is being associated with the emotion, is the returning desire in the soul to return to its original and ultimate home: Spirit..God'dess.  When this dynamic is active there is also an increased production of melatonin in the brain, which of course reflects a time when the soul is intending to use this 'longing' as a focusing mechanism that points one to their interior, where the Source of the longing ever-patiently awaits.

Linda.. I enjoy your perceptions of how other archetypes combine and manifest through the pisces lens.  It has been neat to see your sincere commitment to EA manifest in such a determined effort to KNOW this work, and to watch the progressive result really develop into a core skill that is only just beginning to reveal itself.  Your patient humility is and will continue to be one of your greatest assets.  Truth be told, the same applies to so many of you here.  I am often left in awe by the capacity that so many of you regularly demonstrate.

Stacie

P.S. to Linda:  pisces squaring virgo, eh?  ;) :D

Stacie,

How beautifully the part of miracles is conveyed (amongst so much you have put in words)
Thank you 

Hello all,

Six planets in pisces today...i feel the waters flowing. This isn't as well written as I would like it to be, but I'm going to post it anyways.

One other aspect of the pisces archetype that hasn't been discussed is it's relationship to emotions, feelings and subtle perception. Being the last of the water signs, the feeling function and the potential to interpret feeling is extremely heightened within the archetype. The pisces archetype is the essence of emotion. This can be a cause for confusion, something that Stacie also wrote about, because, for example, in patriarchal societies the feeling function is ignored or is thought of as subversive, malignant or dangerous. The ability to feel and intuit the big picture (pisces used to be co-ruled by Jupiter,) is something that happens instantaneously and is beyond logic. So if there is a piscean individual, say who has mercury in pisces, who has incredible perception but has never been given the language or education about how to develop that perception or communicate that perception, they may experience themselves as crazy/confused because they are in fact perceiving differently than others perceive. The structure of a language itself reflects the beliefs of a culture and Western languages tend not to include ideas that relate to these more subtle ways of perceiving and knowing. Language itself is a boundary of consciousness in that it defines what is possible to think about, and the pisces archetype extends into the realm of the unthinkable. It can only really capture the interrelatedness of reality through metaphor and story. It is, as Stacie mentioned, where we can connect and experience deeper, more fluid states of consciousness.

The connection to the emotional body is also what links pisces to compassion. Everyone has the ability to experience another's experience - our bodies are actually designed to do so whether we are conscious of it or not. Through mirror neurons simply when we see another person doing, experiencing or feeling our body translates their experience as if it was our own. This is in part how children can learn at such an exponential rate through an osmosis-like effect with those around them. It is this same capacity when developed consciously that becomes compassion - the ability to feel another's suffering and a desire to alleviate it. Pisces represents the largest aspect of community that includes all and excludes none. It is demonstrated in the golden rule: treat others as you would like to be treated. It is the the consciousness of the bodhisattva or the Christ.

Another piece of this archetype is the culminating aspect of the archetype; it is the last in the entire cycle. So often where we see pisces/12th house planets is also where we can see unfinished business or the business of finishing happening. Whatever was not allowed to be experienced in the other parts of the cycles due to repression etc, needs to be experienced in order for the cycle to close and move into the aries archetype once again. This again connects us back to the emotional body, as within the context of patriarchal societies the emotions are precisely what was not allowed to be experienced and acknowledged. So all of the self-knowledge that arises through the experience of the emotional body needs to be reintegrated into one's experience. In Vedic/hindu thought the emotion's are part of the mind and are considered as being the deepest levels of the self, closest to God - the ananda maya or Bliss body. This is yet another explanation for the confusion that is related to the archetype - often I hear clients with 12th house planets talk about their unexplainable emotions arising or emotions that seem disproportionate to the causes. These emotions can be remnants of experience that haven't been totally digested and arise in order to be integrated back into consciousness.

Lastly, as Ari pointed out, the pisces archetype is tied to the whole, the totality. In as much as the personality does not reflect the totality of self, often the pisces archetype experiences states which lie outside of the boundaries of the personality. At all levels of evolution, the pisces archetype may be crossing boundaries with its permeating, fluid nature to care for others or intervene on behalf of others. As a yin or feminine sign, it is unusual in that it is expansive. It is like the original yin of the body that acts as the source of our sustainment. It calls us to reach deeply inside to merge with that deeper and larger and more inclusive identity that is available to us. Through the emotions of love and bliss we ultimately can realize our connection with all Beings.

Blessings,
JJ

Hi JJ,

Just want to say it was great reading the thoughts you have added to this discussion.  I particularly enjoyed your insight on mercury in pisces..totally on point.  Merc in pisces could also manifest in a way where the short-term memory seemingly won't hold on to certain ideas or types of information that are gathered or learned.  One will remember the fact of having learned something, but when one tries to recall it it can be so inaccessible that it almost seems like it never existed.  Thus one has to go back and learn it again from a seemingly blank slate.  One can find oneself having to learn and relearn the same thing over and over again, which can lead to the feeling of having an incredibly weak intellect..or at least one the individual has no idea how to control or maintain bcz it just seems to 'have a mind of its own' ;).   The key is to make the conscious effort to take in and integrate information in a way that can be understood in timeless terms..i.e. applicable to any time, any place, any circumstance, any culture..universal and holistic.

Also, there is one thing I wanted to provide some clarification on with respect to your earlier statement about feeling/emotion/subtle perception, and the ability to interpret that content as naturally heightened in pisces.  The inner experience of the content is indeed heightened in pisces, but the ability to interpret..accurately interpret..what is being experienced at the time it is being experienced, is not something that we typically come into pisces already having in place.  This is something that must be learned as one evolves within the archetype.  I want to go into this more in-depth, but for the moment I have to run.  I'll post additional comments, hopefully tonight.  

Thanks again for contributing your wonderful insights JJ.  Hope we'll be hearing more.

God'dess Bless,
Stacie

Hi Stacie,

Yes I totally agree with you. The ability to interpret the emotional experiences does need to be developed and the degree to which someone is able to interpret will depend on what has come previously and where they are in their evolution. Of course, we have to look at the whole picture. (I went back and changed my original statement to "potential" for interpretation rather than "ability". Thank you.) I did indicate this through my example, in which I stated, if someone with mercury in pisces has "never been given the language or education about how to develop that perception or communicate that perception, they may experience themselves as crazy/confused because they are in fact perceiving differently than others perceive."

I also agree that having a larger, universal context for information serves an anchor for facts with mercury in pisces. But really my original point was mainly using mercury in pisces to illustrate the big picture connection to emotions within the pisces archetype, rather than exploring all of the variations of mercury in pisces.

Thanks again,
JJ

Hi Stacie and everyone,

All the archetypes can be expressed in a distorted and undistorted way.  I'm hoping we can look at the distortions of the Pisces archetype along these lines:

Together with observation/correlation, can these distortions be easily found in the chart?  

How would Pisces distortions generally manifest within each evolutionary condition?

For example, there are whole groups of people with Chiron in Pisces, so broadly what kinds of distortions and wounds would this correlate to, as well as the type of healing that is born from this aspect?  

Another area could be those with the Planetary South Node of Neptune conjunct personal planets.

I'm thinking could Pisces distortions be associated with turning away from the natural God or nature (Sag square Pisces), similar to what happened during the suppression and distortion of Capricorn energies in the sub-age of Cancer?  

I wonder if the distortions first became apparent in the mind or psyche of humans (Gemini square Pisces).  

Another area of distortion could be the rigid adherence to Saturnian rules and boundaries for security reasons, at the expense of imagination, a free-flow of the mind, a limitation on feeling/emotion, or an arrested development of one's true nature or relationship with the universe.

Then there are aspects such as Neptune opposite or square Pluto.  What do aspects such as these mean from an evolutionary point of view?   Do they basically mean that the individual had a difficult time surrendering to peace in the past, or a difficult time evolving?

Just trying to capture and understand some core meanings of Pisces distortions.

Would love to hear what you and others think.

Thanks so much.

Hi Stacie/Linda et al,

Stacie I loved your opening post on Picses, it was just great. And I found your questions re distortions and the suggestions you made Linda very interesting, would like to explore this more.

To me one possible distortion of the Picses archetype involves it's inherent core transendental urge. This urge is in everyone and is the basis of many distortions. This urge engenders discontent in all to a greater or lessor extent and not even the most consensual Saturn orientated person is immune to it.

I'm generalising a bit here, but as a trend ... in the consensus state this urge to escape from the mundaneness of the material world can express through fashion, movies and TV, wild parties, alcohol etc. In the individuated state it can be expressed through taking drugs, parties with alienated others, excessive reading etc, and in the spiritual state through practising rituals etc for the sake of it rather than from a genuine opening to existence via devotion and/or meditation, an innocent wakeful presence.

When escapes from this inherent inner restlessness in the soul and spirit, subtle as they may be, are pursued then distortion of the Picses archetype occurs. When no effort to escape is made, then this discontent becomes the divine discontent many mystics talk of. As Stacie said so well, this eventually leads to disillusionment of various forms as the dissolving effect starts operating on the satisfaction and security all the things in one's life that are external to oneself provide. It is very arduous to not try and escape from this expanding sense of emptiness that naturally grows when there is no escape of any kind from oneself. That is where meditation and various devotional involvements are so helpful.

Also interesting is that as external securities and illusions are allowed to drop away the mind goes through periods where it increasingly goes into overdrive (does for me anyway) !  This can really become a literally crazy space in that regard. And many deep feelings can start surfacing ... feelings that don't seem to be related to anything at all in particular, and often these can be overwhelming and last for days at a time eg loneliness, sadness etc. Sometimes these seem obviously repressed feelings emerging, other times can just seem to be a strange kind of way to connect to life at that time. Allowing the emptiness of life to be real without escape is a huge challenge, but it seems to be the only way to not distort this transcendental urge that is at the core of Picses.

I've noticed that people with hard aspects to Neptune from personal planets have a heightened sense of this transcendental urge, and in a less intense, and sometimes different, way also those with many planets in Picses or the 12th. Those with hard aspects to Neptune often have a hard time handling the urge to escape, especially if in the consensus and 1st and 2nd individuated states. Increasingly from 3rd individuated onwards it seems easier as those souls have usually found a healthy and natural form of devotion or worship to channel the urge into.

It'd be interesting to hear anything others have to say about distortions for this archetype.

blessings Upasika
 

Hi Stacie eT al, this is a great discussion about the Pisces archetype. I wanted to add a few thoughts about the distortion of the Pisces archetype. Remember that Pisces and its polarity point, Virgo, both correlate with the potential for sadomasochistic behavior. Pisces correlates to idealism, and as as already been discussed, the nature of personal illusions/delusions, and the need to escape from reality in general. Pisces also correlates with ultimate reality, or meaning, and the need to align with something that provides this ultimate meaning or reality. Of course, when we link this need with anything other than developing a relationship with the Divine we set ourselves to experience one disillusionment after the next because the ultimate meaning we are seeking is never truly found. This dynamic can lead to a constant "chasing or dreams." Also, the need to surrender can become distorted relative to the correlation to sadomasochism. It can lead to the need to be totally consumed by another person, or to to totally surrender oneself to another in a negative way. In other words, in certain cases, the feelings of imperfection, lack, and guilt (Virgo polarity) are linked with lead to a need to atone in some way. This guilt can be linked with feeling that we do not measure up to an ideal (Pisces). The guilt and feelings of imperfection can lead to a distorted need to self sacrifice oneselves or for self punishment in some way. The need to escape or deny the reality that these dynamics create by creating fantasies or illusions would then manifest through the Pisces archetype. Some people can create a very active fantasy life as a way of escaping their actual reality. In some cases, when a person does not have a clear sense of self, or their identity, they can unconsciously "play out" the projected images, or fantasies, of another person. This, of course, can lead to a great deal of inner confusion for the person playing this type of role. (I am touching on the masochistic psychology in these examples). The point within this is that the need for ultimate meaning can become distorted in the ways described above, and also the dynamic of sadomasochism and the need to escape from the reality that these dynamics create are linked with the Pisces archetype. The Pisces archetype correlates with the need to culminate, or bring to closer, an entire evolutionary cycle which are linked with the dynamics discussed in the thread.   
God Bless
Deva

After reading the most recent posts on distortions of Pisces, here are a few thoughts:

Being part of Pluto in Virgo generation I have often wondered how long it would take me to grasp the elusiveness of PPP in Pisces? as well as Saturn in Pisces.  Now reading about distortions and fantasy, its no wonder our generation has had such a difficult time harnessing Pisces.  It's elusive, intangible.  especially for consensus and individuated as you mentioned Upasika.  Even for 1st stage spiritual, the tendency to fantasize as a way of life is quite tempting, and my guess quite normal.  If I wasn't able to live in the flow of dreaming quite realms, I feel I would go insane.  On the other hand, harnessing that bubble of consciousness to direct it into something real can be a true task.  The discernment of Virgo helps immensely, as well as the other mutable signs, to help break down the understanding and logos of the totality of the universal language of Pisces.

For me once I enter into the energy of Pisces, I can get lost in the bliss of it all.  I have a sense/feeling/knowing of 'why bother', everything is already here, there is nothing to prove, no ego to stroke, only to be and be love.  What else is there anyway.

That's my Pisces speaking.  I guess when Neptune calls on the soul, it really requires a great deal of devotion to meditation and the like, otherwise dreamy illusions get whipped around like fast (or slow) moving clouds in the sky, never actualizing the potential of those dreams.  but isn't that the point of Pisces?  A culmination of all the previous signs.  

I have a friend, an old boyfriend with NN Sun Mercury in Pisces.  He totally lives in total overwhelm, confusion and fantasy, protecting himself from the outer world as much as possible.  I know another Pisces, same thing, just expresses it differently.

Quote from: StacieThe transcendental impulse can of course play a role in some very problematic conditions.  For example, if one's consciousness is experiencing a sensitized state over time, and there is no spiritual technique, discipline, or focus through which to integrate spiritual/timeless perceptions, there can be a very real danger of overwhelming consciousness into psychotic break because the rate at which these perceptions are occurring are not being properly regulated, and the interpretation of what is being perceived and why will tend to be referenced through the individual's existing emotional and psychological reality..their own inner stuff..versus through an archetypal, focused, accurate blueprint of natural spiritual law.  This can lead to conditions of delusions and illusions, paranoia, schizophrenic conditions, hysteria, catatonia, confusion, utter loss of emotional/psychological grounding in time/space/sociological reality, among many other possible things.  

I can attest to this experience.  The Pluto in Virgo generation with Chiron in Pisces/Saturn in Pisces have this challenge to come into their bodies, their souls and balance the Chirotic opening they possess. 

Regarding personal planets square Neptune.  I know of me, having Sun square Neptune, it surely challenges me in many ways, but one thing is for sure, it always leads me to choose compassion versus inflation; transcendance versus the mundane.  But so much of my chart suggests this, I'm not sure about it generally speaking.  My sister has Venus Neptune conjunction and she surely believes in soul, though her resistance is immense. 

Thanks Linda for creating this entire zodiac thread.

Blessings,
Wendy

Another thought:

Miracles are born out of dreams, I believe.  At least the ones in my life have been.  I'm a big dreamer and miracle manifestor (Jupiter in the 12th biquinitle with Neptune).

Hi Wendy,

Very interesting ... a few thoughts re this. As you say the tendency for Pisces to fantasize and dream is quite natural, unless in an advanced evolutionary condition. And being "natural" it would be dangerous to suppress it, it is the energy of imagination and whenever energy is supressed it becomes distorted, so it would itself become distorted - then the layers of distortion are increasing.  

There are different ways to bring oneself out of it such as strong exercise, focussing on one thing at a time (totality in one's actions), bhakti, watching one's breathing, meditation etc. But another key to this is to remember the "dreamer". In other words to be present to the dreaming. Letting the fantasizing, day dreaming etc, continue without censorship but just at the back of it, behind it, silently watching it unfold. When an undercurrent in the mind is moving into fantasyland just to notice it, notice that you want to, and just let it happen, but staying in touch by also watching it.

When ongoing fantasies all share a particular theme it can indicate that the unconscious is releasing something, just as happens at night when we're dreaming. "Listening" to the essence of these fantasies can sometimes clue us into an aspect of ourselves that we are not giving enough attention to in our life, some desire or deeper need that we we aren't actioning, showing us a direction. After a period of allowing fantasies to run unchecked but watched, the energy changes, becomes less intense and eventually dissolves once we've intuited the "message". The result at this point can actually be more clarity manifesting about something in one's life.

The imagination is a powerful thing, something hypnotists have known and demonstrated from long ago. It will always be imagination and never reality, but when it is used consciously and constructively it can be healthy and very effective.

On another note re compassion (your's and JJ's post) - Pisces can also be very sensitive. But this often comes at a price, that of being trampled upon. The inherent vulnerability of Pisces is not catered to or valued in many parts of the world. I feel that often the Pisces compassion is actually a sense of obligation or reaction to guilt (as Deva talked about) - a false sense of surrender rather than true compassion. One needs a clear and strong sense of identity to act with compassion.

I've noticed that Pisces people often struggle with anger, not being able to express their needs in a simple way for long periods of time (go with the flow) until one day they erupt in a massively angry outburst completely surprising everyone involved, including themselves! As they grow in self acceptance it is this anger, progressively brought into consciousness, that evolves naturally into compassion with deep clarity - arising from their innate sense or knowing that we are essentially all the same. I'm not sure if this is a generic Picses phenomema, but a parallel to this that comes to mind is Jesus with the money changers in the temple.

blessings Upasika

Quote from: Upasika on Mar 15, 2011, 03:06 AM
There are different ways to bring oneself out of it such as strong exercise, focussing on one thing at a time (totality in one's actions), bhakti, watching one's breathing, meditation etc. But another key to this is to remember the "dreamer". In other words to be present to the dreaming. Letting the fantasizing, day dreaming etc, continue without censorship but just at the back of it, behind it, silently watching it unfold. When an undercurrent in the mind is moving into fantasyland just to notice it, notice that you want to, and just let it happen, but staying in touch by also watching it.

Witnessing is a excellent discerning tool, which we can use to see

Quote from: Upasika
On another note re compassion (your's and JJ's post) - Pisces can also be very sensitive. But this often comes at a price, that of being trampled upon. The inherent vulnerability of Pisces is not catered to or valued in many parts of the world. I feel that often the Pisces compassion is actually a sense of obligation or reaction to guilt (as Deva talked about) - a false sense of surrender rather than true compassion. One needs a clear and strong sense of identity to act with compassion.

I've noticed that Pisces people often struggle with anger, not being able to express their needs in a simple way for long periods of time (go with the flow) until one day they erupt in a massively angry outburst completely surprising everyone involved, including themselves! As they grow in self acceptance it is this anger, progressively brought into consciousness, that evolves naturally into compassion with deep clarity - arising from their innate sense or knowing that we are essentially all the same. I'm not sure if this is a generic Picses phenomema, but a parallel to this that comes to mind is Jesus with the money changers in the temple.

This is an interesting topic Upasika and I agree about Jesus.  Several months ago, my Piscean friend and I were interacting regularly due to a project we were both working on.  A pattern to sensitivity and being compassionate towards each other  continually came up within our daily relating, but it was being taken out of context in my opinion.  I brought thus up to him because I didn't want to encourage it.  When we talked he tried to tell me I wasn't being compassionate.  From my perspective he was using the term compassion to justify his 'sensitivity' rather than be embodied and clearly see with compassion.  The conversation went well, and was clearly guided because he actually felt the energy shift when I spoke of the Course in Miracles and how Jesus was able to be so compassionate--since he was embodied and fully present to all levels of reality, including the non-linear realms that Pisces is akin to.

I'm not sure compassion is anything more than truth in wholeness.  Not Sag truth, but truth filled with wisdom, energy channeled with conscious love (heaven to earth vice versa--Pisces-Virgo).

QuoteI'm not sure compassion is anything more than truth in wholeness.  Not Sag truth, but truth filled with wisdom, energy channeled with conscious love (heaven to earth vice versa--Pisces-Virgo).

... I like the way you put that Wendy, esp the last bit.

Pisces    -    12th house    -    Neptune

Disillusionment     Victim Persecuted Martyr Savior Illusions Priest Alcoholism Mystic Medium

Psychic Astral glamour Addiction Drugs Escape Hopeless Helpless Weak boundaries     Surrender Subconscious

Transcendence       Wounded Suffering Innocence The Fool Suicide Lost Identity Guilt (Individual / Collective) Disbelief

Masochist Fantasy Naive Poet Musician Loss / erosion Isolation Confusion Dreamer Dissociation

[P. Walsh, EA Archetypes]

Hi Linda,

I don't know how I missed your post here:

Quote from: Linda on Mar 08, 2011, 05:11 PM
Hi Stacie and everyone,

All the archetypes can be expressed in a distorted and undistorted way.  I'm hoping we can look at the distortions of the Pisces archetype along these lines:

Together with observation/correlation, can these distortions be easily found in the chart?  

How would Pisces distortions generally manifest within each evolutionary condition?

For example, there are whole groups of people with Chiron in Pisces, so broadly what kinds of distortions and wounds would this correlate to, as well as the type of healing that is born from this aspect?  

Another area could be those with the Planetary South Node of Neptune conjunct personal planets.

I'm thinking could Pisces distortions be associated with turning away from the natural God or nature (Sag square Pisces), similar to what happened during the suppression and distortion of Capricorn energies in the sub-age of Cancer?  

I wonder if the distortions first became apparent in the mind or psyche of humans (Gemini square Pisces).  

Another area of distortion could be the rigid adherence to Saturnian rules and boundaries for security reasons, at the expense of imagination, a free-flow of the mind, a limitation on feeling/emotion, or an arrested development of one's true nature or relationship with the universe.

Then there are aspects such as Neptune opposite or square Pluto.  What do aspects such as these mean from an evolutionary point of view?   Do they basically mean that the individual had a difficult time surrendering to peace in the past, or a difficult time evolving?

Just trying to capture and understand some core meanings of Pisces distortions.

Would love to hear what you and others think.

Thanks so much.

Chiron in Pisces generation has similar patterns; original wound-disillusionment with Godhead/Goddess, stemming most likely from patriarchal socieities.  They also have prior knowledge, direct experience of total union with universal knowing.  Their medicine comes in the form of total trust in the totality of the universe, healing, love as the answer, multi-dimensional awareness, ability to channel this.  Most of this generation has Chiron opposing Pluto in Virgo as well (and Uranus, as well as some with conjunction to Saturn in Pisces), so the essence of Chiron in Pisces relates directly to their souls desire, souls past, and nodal direction. 

I feel/believe the distortions began with the distortion of relationship to nature/natural law, i.e., patriarchal culture.  The mutable signs progress from one to the other Gemini, logos-the mind-ethers, Virgo, the embodied mind-devotion-earth, Sag, natural law, truth-manifestation/fire, Pisces, encompassing connection, complete awareness, love.  Each mutable sign sets the stage for the next mutable integration of the one before, leading to the totality of oneness.  Because of the distortions, they are viewed separately rather than completely. 

Another area of distortion could be the rigid adherence to Saturnian rules and boundaries for security reasons, at the expense of imagination, a free-flow of the mind, a limitation on feeling/emotion, or an arrested development of one's true nature or relationship with the universe.  I love this description-very accurate in describing collective unconscious modus operandi. 

I believe the generations alive today all have Neptune in sextile relationship to Pluto.  Now with Pluto in Cap, and Neptune moving into Pisces, I'm not sure if they will come into sqaure?  Pluto 7 Cap, Neptune 0 Pisces (soon)?  Rad could probably answer this.


Blessings,
Wendy

Quote from: Wendy on Mar 20, 2011, 07:34 AMThey [Chiron in Pisces] also have prior knowledge, direct experience of total union with universal knowing.  Their medicine comes in the form of total trust in the totality of the universe, healing, love as the answer, multi-dimensional awareness, ability to channel this.

Wendy, I love this quote.  I'm hoping everyone can have direct experience of total union and trust with the universe.  Truly, all my Chiron in Pisces friends have brought healing to others through their embodiment of love.

QuoteI believe the generations alive today all have Neptune in sextile relationship to Pluto.  Now with Pluto in Cap, and Neptune moving into Pisces, I'm not sure if they will come into square?  Pluto 7 Cap, Neptune 0 Pisces (soon)?  Rad could probably answer this.

Pluto in Cap will sextile Neptune in Pisces briefly in June-July this year, that is, if a 5+ degree orb is used.  JWG gave a general 4 deg orb for a sextile, but not sure if that would apply to transiting planets.  

I just realized that many of the Neptune/Libra and Neptune/Scorpio generations are experiencing Neptune trine Neptune right now, and into the future.

Yeah, Neptune Pluto trines, I'm looking forward to that. 

Also I feel Chiron in Pisces/Pluto Virgo generation relates directly to wounding from patriarchy, regarding religious power versus healing, devotion to the earth mother.