Hello everybody,
I've been struggling with the following problem: at the time when I discovered EA, I was using Placidus as a house system and my Pluto, although technically in the first house, was about 5 degrees from the second house cusp (using, as I've said, the Placidus house system). Furthermore, I believed that the cusp is not necessarily the absolute beginning of a house, but rather the most sensitive part of a house (more specifically, that the influence of a house starts a few degrees before the cusp, is strongest on the cusp and slowly fades away until the last degrees of that house, where it progressively gives way to the influence of the energy associated with the next house). For lack of a better choice of words, I believed that the beginning and ending of a house are not abrupt and sudden changes in the energy associated with that house, but rather a smoother transition process between neighboring houses.
With these ideas in mind, I considered that my natal Pluto's influence would be felt in the 2nd house (or rather, more in the 2nd house than in the 1st house), given its actual position a few degrees from the 2nd house cusp.
It was with this approach in mind that I discovered Jeffrey Wolf Green's Pluto book and EA. When I got hold of the book I went straight to the description of Pluto in the 2nd house and it was one of those AHA moments because I could totally relate to what I was reading. It was an enlightening experience and I felt fortunate to have found such an useful tool to help me find the answers to some questions that had been tormenting me for quite a while.
When I read and re-read Pluto I, I tried to see whether I could also relate to the description of Pluto in the 1st house and I found that I could do so only to a significantly lesser extent than to the description of Pluto in the 2nd house (with the latter description remaining to this day startling accurate for me). To put it in other words, the description of Pluto in the 1st does not seem completely strange to me, but if someone had asked me to choose which description I thought would better represent me I would have said: "definitely Pluto in 2nd"
However, as I found out from this message board, Porphyry is the preferred system for EA. Since this has been addressed elsewhere, I will not bring up again the question of why this is the preferred system and whether we can still use other systems (Placidus in particular) as well.
However, my question is whether in EA the influence of a house can be felt before the actual cusp of that house, so that Pluto (or any other planet for that matter) can be interpreted as being in the proceeding house, although it is technically a few degrees before the cusp"¦ and if so, how far back can we go using this reasoning?
I am hoping to find an answer to this question since with Porphyry my Pluto would fall 9 degrees before the 2nd, but I still cannot relate to the description of Pluto in the 1st the way I can relate to Pluto in the 2nd. I mean, with Scorpio on my 2nd house cusp, I can understand that the influence I am feeling might be that of the sign ruling the 2nd house, not necessarily that of Pluto, but I am still left with not being able to relate to Pluto in the 1st.
I am not sure if this is relevant to my question, but my natal Pluto is at 28 degrees Libra.
Any thoughts, suggestions or advice in terms of further reading would be most appreciated.
Serban
P.S. As this is my first posting, please kindly let me know whether I have somehow unintentionally failed to comply with any rules of the message board. More specifically, I hope that the answer to my question might be of relevance to other people too. Should this not be the case, I apologize.
Hi Serban
I am taking your question as asking for general EA information rather than specific assistance with interpreting your own chart. As such it is OK with our guidelines.
The things to consider first are:
1) is your birth time accurate? The ascendant changes one degree every four minutes. If you birthtime was off by 30 or 40 minutes that could put your pluto in a different house.
2) You have to look at what the rest of your chart looks like. I see that when Pluto was at 28 Libra the nodes were not in Taurus/Scorpio, but as a general rule you would consider that. Does the person have 4 Taurus planets, or 3 planets in the second house squaring a bunch of other planets? Any of those will give a Taurus feel to the whole chart.
The issue is the Soul (Pluto) relates to the deepest part of our nature. Many people are not attuned to the deepest parts of their nature and thus could feel more at home in personality qualities of their nature.
It is true that Pluto near a house cusp (within a few degrees) is going to pick up some of the flavor of the adjacent house, whether it is two degrees into a house (in which case the Soul has spent a lot of time with the archetype of the previous house in recent Soul memory, thus it will feel familiar) or if it is at the end of a house, it will start feeling the pull, the allure, of what is not yet at hand yet is coming on the horizon.
We never, in EA, interpret a Pluto position as being in an adjacent house. The position of Pluto is the position of Pluto. In my own case, under Placidus I have Pluto in the 9th house. Under Porphyry I have Pluto ten minutes (a sixth of one degree) before the 9th house cusp, in the 8th house. Anyone who knows me would likely see me as an 8th house Pluto even though I have Sag tendencies (there are other 9th house and Sag symbols in my chart that add to the Sag effect). The point is, the placement of Pluto is where it is, for the Soul's own reasons. And, you can't declare yourself in the next house just because you identify with it. It is what it is. You can't decide you are in the 6th grade when you are in the 5th grade, just because you want to be a 6th grader. If you go to the 6th grade class they will send you back to the 5th grade, because that is, at this time, where you naturally belong.
Now if you still strongly identify with the 2nd house, and you don't have Taurus or 2nd house steliums, I suggest you double check the possibility of your birth time being off. And if it turns out your birth time is accurate, you might ponder more deeply the 1st house Pluto archetypes and if you are repressing portions of your nature. (I will NEVER tell someone that because their chart says this, that you must be this way, and the fact that you don't feel that way means you are denying or repressing something. The way you feel is the bottom line reality for you. The issue is, EA is extremely accurate. So if you simply do not identify with 1st house Pluto and you feel you are not repressing aspects of your nature, I'd really consider the accuracy of your birth time).
Steve
Hi Serban,
Welcome to the message board.
I see that you've received the right answer from Steve.
Here are a few of my thoughts:
Venus, the ruler of your Pluto 28 deg Libra, naturally rules two signs: Libra and Taurus. Libra refers to relating to others in all our relationships that are "outside" of ourselves; while Taurus refers to our "inner" relationship to ourselves and to our inner needs. This could be one of the reasons why you resonate with the 2nd house to some degree.
Another point to consider is that your 2nd house cusp, Scorpio, is ruled by Pluto itself. So your 2nd house cusp is dynamically connected to your 1st house Pluto placement.
We had been discussing in another thread (Scorpio archetype) how Pluto is basically unconscious and how the Moon and the Nodes make the Soul's intentions conscious (see link). Perhaps check out your Moon and Nodes.
https://forum.schoolofevolutionaryastrology.com/index.php/topic,334.msg5611.html#msg5611
Hope this helps.
Hi there,
I just wanted to add that when I initially read the description of Pluto in the 7th, which is the natal placement of my Pluto, I could relate to it to some degree, but I resonated more so with the descriptions of Pluto in the 12th, or the 8th.
Knowing that Pluto is very unconscious to most, I was willing to open more and more, to see the hidden and subtle ways I may be doing the Pluto 7th. It's funny because what I see now, as I was recently telling Ari, is that it (pluto 7th) was running so automatic, I didnt even consider it --let alone, questioning it--
--the complusion to relate 1 to 1, or to compare myself in relation to others, or see myself as if others were looking at me--and/or relying on others opinions and input at every turn, obsessing about my marriage, etc. etc. These things were so automatic, and so normal to me, I felt everyone must live like this-- I never even suspected it. Ha!
--So when I read the Pluto in the 7th again, I had to really drop into the core motivation of this life --and really open to seeing this archetype in myself at such a naked CORE level. I also had to read between the lines in Pluto 1 book chapters on Libra and Pluto in the 7th house-- like feel out the most subtle energy of what was being read. (hope that made sense).
And it was like --omg, yes! --now i see!!! it was like one of those moments when you find your glasses right on top of your head after you have been looking all over for them.
Well, that's my experience. Hope it was useful.
Peace,
Dhyana
And I also notice with people I work with too -- it takes a while for me to get them to even recognize the Pluto dynamic --sometimes I have to start with the SN and work my way backwards towards it, or they will not even listen in regards to it. It's pretty wild, the denial I have observed in this respect. Sometimes, I have to build a lot of trust with the person first to even begin to touch on it. And other times, there isnt really yet a readiness to look. From my observation, it really lies in the deep wells of the unconscious indeed.
Deep Peace,
Dhyana
Serban,
Another warm welcome to you.
I wanted to add a couple thoughts to this.
My birth certificate said 9:13, but I am positive my birth was at 9:08.
Why? Because I watched transits for years. Gosh darn it, when that Mars is squaring my ascendent, I sure do feel that. It is a quicker moving transit, so each year you'll have at least two aspects which are conjunct, square or opposite your ascent.
I have certainly noticed there is a strong tendency to get cranky and irritable without a good physical outlet for all that Martian energy with these transits.
Everyone is different, but for myself, it is at the point where if i stop looking at transits for great periods of time and then one day...what the heck, i must be having a mars transit. is mars aspecting my such and such...
You get the picture. Also, did not Saturn cross your ascent a few years back?? Did that one line up with the ascent you have?? Based on your age and pluto position, at some time the solar arc AC will conjunct that pluto...if you see it happening or happened but it is not correlating - then maybe the AC is wrong.
Blessings,
Bradley
Hi everybody,
A warm thank you to everybody who replied. This has been tremendously helpful for me and will definitely give me some serious food for thought.
The reason why I worked up the courage to post my question in the first place was the fact that on the one hand I have a strong belief that EA can provide answers to questions that have long remained unanswered while on the other hand, I cannot deny how strongly I am feeling the Taurus archetype.
My birth time is at most 10 minutes off (I am pretty sure about that) which would not make any difference with respect to Pluto's position. I have NN Gemini in the 9th and SN Sagittarius in the 3rd. I do however have Libra Sun, Libra Ascendant AND Taurus Moon (with the Moon in opposition to Pluto) so maybe this might account for why I feel the Taurus influence so strongly.
The funny thing with the description of Pluto in the 1st is that it is not completely strange to me; it is just nowhere near as familiar as Pluto in the 2nd.
Thank you for clearing up the fact that EA never interprets Pluto as being in an adjacent house. Is this also the case for other planets as well, or just Pluto?
Considering the advice you have so kindly offered to me, the fact that I am pretty sure about the birth time and the fact that the description for Pluto in the 1st is not totally unfamiliar, I will take a long hard look at my inner motivations and try to shed some light on some deeper patterns that may be at work without me even being aware (assuming I am able to bring them within the grasp of my conscious mind).
As I was going through the message board archive I found an answer given by Jeffrey where he says that "in any chart, composite or otherwise, when pluto, or any planet, is within a degree or two of the proceeding cusp this correlates, in evolutionary terms, to an evolutionary culmination of the whole archetype of the house of the actual pluto, and relative to that culmination a new cycle of development is beginning... the proceeding house"
However, I am not sure I understand what he means by this as I cannot seem to make the right connection between the evolution of the Soul towards the polarity point of Pluto and the proceeding house. As far as I can understand, the polarity point applies in all cases, irrespective whether Pluto is at the beginning or near the end of the house it is in, unless there is a conjunction between NN and Pluto, in which case the polarity point does not apply.
So how does the proceeding house fit into this overall context? Could it be that the proceeding house is simply yet another chapter in the evolution of the Soul towards the polarity point?
Again many thanks for your advice and all the best!
Serban
Hi Serban
As you said, there is always a Pluto Polarity Point unless Pluto is conjunct the NN.
There is also always a long standing past. One of the core basics in life is that humans get attached to what they know. It comes to represent what feels safe and secure to us. That includes experiences that are quite dysfunctional - we get used to them and see them as normal, not dysfunctional, because the are the sorts of experiences many Souls have been having, over and over, for a long time.
It takes much longer than one lifetime to learn all of the lessons of a single Pluto house. Jeffrey's words mean there have been a series of lives in which the Soul has been learning the lessons of that Pluto house. Thus those lessons, and that orientation to looking at life, have become very familiar. When Pluto is nearing the next house's cusp, that whole series of lives is drawing to a close. That is what "culminating" means. It implies that all necessary things - lessons, endings of outmoded habits and ways of looking at life, etc. - need to come to completion before the Soul can move on. Usually we put off to the end the parts of things we like the least. When an archetype is culminating the Soul will force itself to deal with all of that, through the medium of "you" - the personality.
At the same time, the Soul in some ways has gotten tired of the present lessons as it has been engaged in them for a series of lives. It feels, senses on the horizon, what is ahead. Something different and new. It experiences that promise as release and it will yearn for it. And yet, it is not there yet - it has to culminate what remains unfinished in the present Pluto house before it can truly move into that new. (Attempting to jump ahead prematurely can be one of the causes of skipped steps).
A good way to look at the Pluto Polarity Point is moving towards it facilitates the process of culminating the lessons in the current Pluto house. There are reasons we have not yet completed those lessons. They typically relate to getting bogged down, stuck, in familiar yet dysfunctional behaviors and patterns. Moving towards the PPP helps break down this resistance, brings new input into how we are "doing" the natal Pluto placement, allowing us to culminate and then move on.
Everything in life contains evolutionary intentions and resistances to them. It is not linear in that only the NN and PPP are where evolution occurs. Life is in constant movement. Its intentions are forward movement - growth. The NN and PPP facilitate that forward movement - developing them will progressively untie the knots we have created, allowing the whole Soul and personality to more freely evolve with less resistance. But there is also movement within a house, from beginning to end, over time - that too is evolution.
Steve
Steve, I would like to ask a question about PPP - how do you intrepret a planet on that PPP, ie. an opposition to Pluto?
thanks to Serban for starting this thread, and for any feedback you can give to my question.
Quote from: bluesky on Nov 24, 2010, 11:21 AM
Steve, I would like to ask a question about PPP - how do you intrepret a planet on that PPP, ie. an opposition to Pluto?
thanks to Serban for starting this thread, and for any feedback you can give to my question.
Hi bluesky
Development of that planet, by house and sign, is a crucial part of the Soul's ongoing evolutionary process. Its one of the most intense placements a planet can have.
Review what Jeffrey had to say about Mars opposing Pluto and how extreme that is. Now substitute for the Mars archetypes that he described, the archetypes of the planet that is opposing Pluto.
One thing that can often occur with this placement is people and events in the outer reality will occur in intense Plutonian ways. The person often sees this as external, as things that are happening to them. They have forgotten that everything that occurs externally is an outpicturing of the Soul's internal reality. Thus they can feel victimized, until they finally come to understand the evolutionary reasons these intense experiences have been necessary for the Soul's ongoing evolutionary needs. Then the lights start coming on.
Hi Steve - would you say that, in the potential lack of awareness of external reality reflecting internal realty, the person may "own" one side of the opposition and project the other?
thanks again for the feedback, Steve, it is much appreciated.
Quote from: bluesky on Nov 24, 2010, 12:53 PM
would you say that, in the potential lack of awareness of external reality reflecting internal realty, the person may "own" one side of the opposition and project the other?
Sure, that is one way it could play out. They would be projecting the parts they couldn't own.
Quote from: Steve on Nov 24, 2010, 08:40 AM
A good way to look at the Pluto Polarity Point is moving towards it facilitates the process of culminating the lessons in the current Pluto house. There are reasons we have not yet completed those lessons. They typically relate to getting bogged down, stuck, in familiar yet dysfunctional behaviors and patterns. Moving towards the PPP helps break down this resistance, brings new input into how we are "doing" the natal Pluto placement, allowing us to culminate and then move on.
Everything in life contains evolutionary intentions and resistances to them. It is not linear in that only the NN and PPP are where evolution occurs. Life is in constant movement. Its intentions are forward movement - growth. The NN and PPP facilitate that forward movement - developing them will progressively untie the knots we have created, allowing the whole Soul and personality to more freely evolve with less resistance. But there is also movement within a house, from beginning to end, over time - that too is evolution.
Thank you so much Steve! This is really helpful.
I wanted to clear one more thing about planets which are a few degrees from the next house cusp:
Quote from: serban_p on Nov 24, 2010, 04:43 AM
Thank you for clearing up the fact that EA never interprets Pluto as being in an adjacent house. Is this also the case for other planets as well, or just Pluto?
Many thanks once again.
All the best,
Serban
Hi Serban
QuoteThank you for clearing up the fact that EA never interprets Pluto as being in an adjacent house. Is this also the case for other planets as well, or just Pluto?
That is the case for all planets. When one has an accurate birthtime, the natal chart is a map of the present evolutionary condition and intentions of that Soul. All planet locations in the chart are in essence selected by the Soul, Pluto, as they reflect (as in, indicate) where that Soul is at, where it left off in the previous life, where it intends to go in this life. When a planet is near the beginning or end of a house it means that a new phase of evolution, relative to the archetypes of that planet and house, is at hand. When it is near the beginning, that new phase has just begun. When it is near the end it is approaching.
It all comes down to, we are where we are. We are not where we wish to be, no matter how strongly we desire or even believe we are there. We are where we are. And it is through accepting and embracing
where we are that we best speed up the process of becoming what we wish to be.
Again, being near the end of something is not the same as having completed it, no matter how much we yearn to be done with it and on with the next thing. The point to remember is
we are where we are. That is what the birth chart indicates. Whether we want to believe what it is telling us is another matter altogether!
Steve
Steve,
I've been going over what you said about Pluto being at the beginning of a house.
Quote from: Steve on Nov 23, 2010, 03:00 PM
whether it is two degrees into a house (in which case the Soul has spent a lot of time with the archetype of the previous house in recent Soul memory, thus it will feel familiar)
Quote from: Steve on Nov 25, 2010, 08:47 AM
When a planet is near the beginning or end of a house it means that a new phase of evolution, relative to the archetypes of that planet and house, is at hand. When it is near the beginning, that new phase has just begun
So my question is this: if the Soul has spent a long time dealing with the matters of the
previous house and presumably the experiences of the house it is in have not yet become deeply ingrained, why does the Soul already need to move towards the PPP, when Pluto has just entered the house it is currently in?
Is it maybe because although Pluto is at the beginning of a house this is not the absolute beginning of the Soul's experience with the matters associated with that house (given the Soul's presumably long evolutionary history) so that house is new only in terms of the experiences associated with it having recently become subject to an intensified evolutionary metamorphosis? In other words, is it correct to say that when Pluto is at the beginning of a house, this does not mean that the experiences of that house are new to the Soul, but rather that the intention to eliminate the separating desires associated with that house is relatively new in the Soul's evolutionary history (and thus moving towards the PPP would facilitate the Soul's evolution even though Pluto is at the beginning of the house)?
That would imply that patterns of behavior associated with the house where Pluto is now have developed over many previous lifetimes when maybe the Soul was working with other separating desires (ie matters associated with other houses) and the Soul has just recently (which explains Pluto's position at the beginning of the house) come to dealing with the matters of the house it is in?
For lack of a better choice of words, maybe such patterns of behavior (even if they have become outmoded) have taken a back seat to other priorities in the Soul's recent history (for the Soul's own reasons, as I understand that the Soul is not working on all its separating desires in one lifetime but is gradually exhausting them) and are now coming to the forefront of the Soul's evolution?
I don't know if that makes much sense or if I am again thinking about the evolutionary intent in linear terms.
All the best,
Serban
Hi Serban
The nature of Life is that it evolves. It is ingrained. The way that life evolves is by going to its polarity point.
It is not Pluto alone that has a polarity point. In his Pluto Volume 2 Relationships book, Jeffrey detailed in the chapters about Mars and Venus what moving towards the polarity of the sign that Mars and Venus are in looks like. The same principle applies to all the planets and symbols in our charts. Its just the way life works.
If it makes more sense to you, you could visualize it as it is the polarity point that is moving forward through the zodiac over time in its evolutionary track. Since the planet must be 180 degrees apart from its polarity point, the planet is getting dragged forward by its advancing polarity point.
This is also indicated in progressed charts, which show how the evolutionary intentions are unfolding OVER TIME. Thus the polarity point progresses also.
It does comes down to desire nature. At a certain point we get sick of something we previously loved. The feeling becomes "been there done that". This too is part of how life is constructed. (The EA material on the Cycles of Phases and Aspects is very relevant to this)
The Soul is not working on only one separating desire in a lifetime. The chart is a map of our desire nature. When you see grand crosses or a lot of squares or oppositions or a number of skipped steps, you are typically looking at the map of a Soul with conflicting simultaneous desires, wanting to go in multiple incompatible directions at the same time.
The Pluto polarity point is the most significant polarity point as it tracks the evolution of the Soul itself.
By the way, your questions are very good. It is clear you are deeply and sincerely contemplating how this all comes together. I know from my own unfolding process that it is necessary, and valid, to be in that place, to ask the sort of questions you are asking. Taking in the replies. For myself, at a certain point I had an inner intuitive experience when a light turned on, when I saw in an instant how all of the information I'd been taking in comes together as a cohesive whole in which the underlying natural process is intuitively grasped. From my perspective you are asking exactly the right sort of questions, and it will lead, sooner or later, to you having your own inner experience of how all this works.
Feel free to ask further questions if you care to, Serban.
take care
Steve
Hi Serban,
To add to what Steve is sharing: I just finished watching the "from karma to dharma" dvd by Jeff Green. One idea that he shared was to take the chart, as it is, and re-draw it such that every single planet is placed 180 degrees from where it is. The houses and the signs stay the same and the nodes stay the same.
So for example, if you have Pluto in the 1st house @ 28 degree Libra. You would simply move your Pluto to the 7th house 28 degrees Aries- and likewise for all the other planets.
This polarity chart points to exactly what needs to be embraced in order for evolution to proceed. Looking at my own, it's pretty telling! It doesn't mean the goal is to live as if you had Pluto in the seventh house in Aries- if it was, then your soul would have chosen such a placement. Rather, the polarity point, for any planet, serves as the integration for the intent implied by that natal planet.
Given that Pluto correlates to the bottom line reason for any particular incarnation AND also points to the greatest degree of resistance to change, then the Pluto polarity point is truly the most relevant signature for how to cooperate with evolution.
One way to understand the nature of any planet's polarity point, it to contemplate the shadowy aspect of that archetype (ie jupiter= self convincing) and then to contemplate how the point opposite that planet enforces awareness where there may otherwise be a fixed karmic pattern. (ie Juptier polarity point= challenges the scope of personal intuition, leads to an expanded understanding of Life).
Ari Moshe
Steve, Ari,
Thank you both for your advice. This has been very helpful and does indeed put things in a new perspective.
I always pictured the evolutionary path in terms of getting to a point, staying there for as long as it is necessary to learn the lessons of that place (since these lessons are the reason why it was necessary to get to that point in the first place) and then somehow refusing to move forward along the evolutionary journey because that place has become all too familiar. I always thought that it is only at this time that the need to move towards the polarity point comes into action, as in only after having overstayed somewhere. I totally understand why outmoded patterns need to be left behind, by moving towards the polarity point, but is there such a thing as patterns that have not yet become outmoded?
Since the birth chart is a map of the desire nature at a given point in the evolutionary journey, and since in order to cooperate with the evolutionary intent the polarity points of the planets need to be embraced, would that imply that all the desires that are represented in the birth chart are of a separating nature? This seems rather extreme, but then again, if all separating desires had been exhausted prior to the current lifetime, there would have been no need for the Soul to reincarnate another time around, right?
Quote from: Steve on Nov 26, 2010, 09:18 AM
At a certain point we get sick of something we previously loved. The feeling becomes "been there done that".
But happens before that certain point? Between the moment of getting somewhere and the moment when it is time to go somewhere else? Since presumably there have been evolutionary reasons for getting to that somewhere in the first place, when is time allowed for developing the lessons of that particular point in evolution if at the very time of getting there, there is already a polarity point to embrace?
What I am trying to say is this: is there a time when it is ok to say "I just got here. There's no need for me to go anywhere just right now" ? Or is that indicative of an early form of resistance to the evolutionary intent? Would that sort of reasoning amount to asking for a break from the evolutionary intent and making excuses for refusing to continue on the evolutionary path or would it represent a legitimate need to develop and integrate the lessons of that particular point of the journey?
Since the only time when the polarity point is not applicable is when Pluto is conjunct the NN, would it be correct to say that this would represent the only situation when it is ok to reason along the lines described above?
And finally one last question about the situation when Pluto is conjunct the NN. Does this mean that there is no polarity point for any of the other planets in the chart as well?
All the best,
Serban
P.S. Thank you so very much, Steve for all your kind thoughts and encouragement. I cannot even begin to tell you how much this means to me.
Steve, Ari,
I was wondering if you have any more thoughts on the above. Also, you might use this opportunity to take a break from the discussions going on in the sesquiquadrate thread ;)
All the best,
Serban
Hi Serban
Quote from: serban_p on Nov 27, 2010, 03:52 PM
I always pictured the evolutionary path in terms of getting to a point, staying there for as long as it is necessary to learn the lessons of that place (since these lessons are the reason why it was necessary to get to that point in the first place) and then somehow refusing to move forward along the evolutionary journey because that place has become all too familiar. I always thought that it is only at this time that the need to move towards the polarity point comes into action, as in only after having overstayed somewhere. I totally understand why outmoded patterns need to be left behind, by moving towards the polarity point, but is there such a thing as patterns that have not yet become outmoded?
Since the birth chart is a map of the desire nature at a given point in the evolutionary journey, and since in order to cooperate with the evolutionary intent the polarity points of the planets need to be embraced, would that imply that all the desires that are represented in the birth chart are of a separating nature? This seems rather extreme, but then again, if all separating desires had been exhausted prior to the current lifetime, there would have been no need for the Soul to reincarnate another time around, right?
But happens before that certain point? Between the moment of getting somewhere and the moment when it is time to go somewhere else? Since presumably there have been evolutionary reasons for getting to that somewhere in the first place, when is time allowed for developing the lessons of that particular point in evolution if at the very time of getting there, there is already a polarity point to embrace?
What I am trying to say is this: is there a time when it is ok to say "I just got here. There's no need for me to go anywhere just right now" ? Or is that indicative of an early form of resistance to the evolutionary intent? Would that sort of reasoning amount to asking for a break from the evolutionary intent and making excuses for refusing to continue on the evolutionary path or would it represent a legitimate need to develop and integrate the lessons of that particular point of the journey?
Since the only time when the polarity point is not applicable is when Pluto is conjunct the NN, would it be correct to say that this would represent the only situation when it is ok to reason along the lines described above?
I think the issue you are having in trying to understand this is your feeling that when you arrive at a new place you are supposed to be there and this means that everything stands still until it becomes outmoded and you are no longer supposed to be there. That perspective is overlooking some realities of life.
I will give you the example of spring turning to summer. (I am using a northern hemisphere example. If you are in the southern hemisphere change my dates by 6 months). Most of us, I suspect, wouldn't mind if it stayed late June and early July about three times longer than it does. None the less it doesn't. Evolution is progressive, day by day. Before you know it, it is late July and then early August. The days are getting shorter. The very seasonal change, day by day, itself is moving us forward, because the environment beneath our feet is changing before our eyes. The change from today to tomorrow, and tomorrow to the following day, is almost imperceptible. But if you take the daily change that occurs over 6 or 8 weeks, it is quite perceptible.
Nothing in life ever stays the same. The ascendant moves one degree every four minutes. From what I see, the moon moves one degree about every hour and 30 to 40 minutes. They appear to be constant but they are not.
What you refer to is beautifully described in the EA material on the cycles of phases and aspects. That every circle/cycle has its own inherent meanings reasons and evolutionary intents. And these progressively play out over the course of the cycle, moment by moment, not all at once. (That is why there IS a cycle. Otherwise it would all happen at the same time.) Even the seasons really are the phases of the Sun at the Aries point and its phasal relationship to the transiting Sun. That is why to me it makes a great example, because we can correlate astro theory with physical events we have all experienced life long. The same principle we can recognize at work in that example also applies to all the inner cycles going on within us.
There are archetypes associated with all the points along the circle, the natural steps or behavioral tendencies that are going to occur when cycles reach certain points. The patterns of resistance and cooperation are built into the archetypes. (Of course we have choice over whether we will resist or cooperate. But most of us, until we start figuring this out from inside ourselves, that we can then make new choices, operate instinctually by repeating our pre-existing patterns, based on very familiar past decisions).
As you start looking at it this way, you start to realize that the idea that you are in something new and you are supposed to stay there until it becomes outmoded is in fact true. But its not that everything is fine and then one day it is outmoded. The progress through the changes proceeds moment by moment, hour by hour, day by day, week by week, month by month, etc. At every moment, even from the beginning of the new phase of the cycle, there are things we need to release from.
New Phase is experiential. Right away we are going to try some new things that we then decide aren't right or didn't work. So we stop doing those things right away, right in the new phase. Thus we are shedding even as we are learning something new. Through trial and error we (hopefully) get better at it and closer to the ideal. The intended times of major sheddings, at end points, culminations, are when a whole bunch has to get dropped at once. But in every moment we can be dropping something and initiating something else. Endless endings and beginnings, or Involution and Evolution, as Jeffrey used to put it. Something has to die, no matter how infinitesimal, before something new can be born. That is just how life works - that is what EA calls Natural Law, in action. Death - rebirth is the way of life. And death-rebirth is a core Pluto archetype, thus the evolution of the Soul through that process.
The whole thing is a PROCESS. Trying to hang on to the present is quite like trying to make time stop in early July for a month or two. We might like that but its not going to happen. On the other hand, we can get away with pretending for a while that is happening. We can convince ourselves it is happening. But that doesn't mean it is.
If I convince myself something is happening that isn't (it's still early July) sooner or later I am going to experience evidence in my life that is not what is happening. The more I dig in and believe it is happening when evidence is showing me its not, the more painful the day of reckoning is going to be when the belief finally blows up in my face for good. That is usually about the time we start talking about how unfair and cruel life is, when what I passionately believed turns out to not be aligned with the way "reality" has unfolded. (Does this sound at all familiar in terms of how we live our lives about things other than believing I am making it stay early July for 6 weeks?) Does that mean there is something unfair in life, or that I have let myself believe that the way that life works is different than the way it actually works?
QuoteAnd finally one last question about the situation when Pluto is conjunct the NN. Does this mean that there is no polarity point for any of the other planets in the chart as well?
No, it doesn't mean that at all.
QuoteP.S. Thank you so very much, Steve for all your kind thoughts and encouragement. I cannot even begin to tell you how much this means to me.
the feeling is mutual
Steve
Thank you, Steve for taking the time to write that. It's beautifully written and precisely answers my questions.
All the best,
Serban
Ari,
I was re-reading what you wrote and I would like to ask something.
Quote from: ari moshe on Nov 26, 2010, 08:30 PM
Rather, the polarity point, for any planet, serves as the integration for the intent implied by that natal planet.
Does it make any difference if a planet in the birth chart is: (A) conjunct the NN; or (B) conjunct the SN, but the SN is the resolution node of skipped steps. Or does the rule you mentioned apply regardless of such conditions?
All the best,
Serban
Hi Serban
QuoteDoes it make any difference if a planet in the birth chart is: (A) conjunct the NN;
This implies that that function has been developed prior to this life, and the intent is to continue in that direction. Jeff Green taught that in such a case when Pluto is conj the nn, the polarity point does not apply. Intuitively to me, the same principal would apply for all planets. I'd like someone else to confirm that though...
I know of no other cases where the principal of polarity is not applicable. When a planet is on the south node which is also the resolution node for a skipped step there is most definitely a polarity point for that planet.
God bless,
Ari Moshe
Hi Ari,
Quote from: ari moshe on Dec 09, 2010, 08:09 AM
Jeff Green taught that in such a case when Pluto is conj the nn, the polarity point does not apply. Intuitively to me, the same principal would apply for all planets. I'd like someone else to confirm that though...
I think so too, but it would indeed be reassuring if someone confirmed it.
Quote from: ari moshe on Dec 09, 2010, 08:09 AM
I know of no other cases where the principal of polarity is not applicable
Does this mean that the polarity point would apply for a planet that is in opposition to Pluto, i.e. conjunct the PPP?
Quote from: ari moshe on Dec 09, 2010, 08:09 AM
When a planet is on the south node which is also the resolution node for a skipped step there is most definitely a polarity point for that planet.
My question looks so silly to me now, but I got carried away by the discussion in another thread and ended up posting the question without fully considering the issue.
All the best,
Serban
Hi Ari,
"This implies that that function has been developed prior to this life, and the intent is to continue in that direction. Jeff Green taught that in such a case when Pluto is conj the nn, the polarity point does not apply. Intuitively to me, the same principal would apply for all planets. I'd like someone else to confirm that though..."
***********************
Yes, it is true. But we also need to remember that all signs have their natural polarity within them. And it is this inner polarity within the sign that allows for an evolution to occur within that sign. Like we can have the Pluto in Libra on the N.Node of Libra and there is no polarity to develop there, yet within Libra there is it's natural polarity: Aries.
God Bless, Rad
Thanks Rad,
The question then arises, given that any sign contains within itself its natural polarity- then what is the meaning of saying "the polarity point does not apply for pluto on the nn"?
God bless,
Ari Moshe
Hi Ari, Rad,
Quote from: ari moshe on Dec 10, 2010, 03:14 PM
The question then arises, given that any sign contains within itself its natural polarity- then what is the meaning of saying "the polarity point does not apply for pluto on the nn"?
I was wondering if you have any more thoughts on the above. If a planet is in a sign, but does not have a polarity point, even though as Rad said any sign contains its natural polarity within it, what does this mean in terms of the dynamics that need to be embraced with respect to that planet in order for evolution to proceed?
All the best,
Serban
Hi Ari and Serban,
It is very simple. What JWG taught in relation to this is when Pluto is conjunct the N.Node that the Soul has already been working on these evolutionary dynamics so symbolized, and is meant to continue in that evolutionary development. There is no polarity point BY HOUSE as would be the case in all other conditions with Pluto in the natal chart. All planets, including Pluto, have their natural polarities within them that serve by the nature of the archetype itself, the sign, that allows for a natural evolution to proceed.
God Bless, Rad
Hi Rad,
Thank you for your response.
Just to be sure I understand what has been said so far about the polarity points of planets other than Pluto (here, and in the Neptune square thread), can you please let me know if I am mistaking by saying that there is no polarity point by house for:
a) the ruler of the NN (assuming that no skipped steps exist);
b) a planet conjunct the NN (assuming that no skipped steps exist);
c) the ruler of the resolution node, whether SN or NN, if skipped exist in the chart;
In all cases, whether a polarity point by house exists or not, any planet (Pluto or another planet), whether in one of the three conditions described above or not, needs to integrate the sign opposite to the sign it is in, in order to evolve its natal position.
Are there any other situations when there is no polarity point by house? In particular, does this apply to:
(i) a planet conjunct the PPP;
(ii) a planet conjunct the NN if skipped steps exist and NN is the resolution node
(iii) a planet conjunct the NN if skipped steps exist, but the NN is not the resolution node ?
All the best,
Serban
P.S. Apologies if my questions seem redundant, but I really want to fully understand this issue.
All,
In NO conditions within the birth chart does any polarity point apply other than the polarity point of Pluto that needs to be consciously embraced, desire, for the evolution of the Soul to continue. And the one exception to that as Wolf taught is when the natal Pluto is conjunct the N.Node. Even then there is a natural polarity within the sign that Pluto is in natally that NATURALLY is evolved towards via the natural law of polarities. And it is this natural polarity within the sign of a natal Pluto that then correlates the evolution of an entire generation on Earth, and why any given generation is on Earth at any point in time.
Every sign has a natural polarity within it that serves as the evolution within that sign because of it's natural polarity. Thus, as the Soul evolves, makes a choice to evolve, which is symbolized by it's opposite house and sign, and in the case of Pluto conjunct the N.Node, by sign, and the location of the planetary ruler of that N.Node, the aspects that it is making, this then CAUSES the rest of the entire birth chart to also evolve. It's automatic.
So all those natural polarities that exist within the signs that the planets are in, in any birth chart, automatically are evolved towards. It is a function of evolution. The degree of evolution is dependent of course on the choices that the Soul makes in any given life relative to it's core evolutionary signature which is symbolized by natal Pluto, the S.Node and it's planetary ruler, the polarity point of Pluto, and the N.Node and it's planetary ruler.
Every natal planet in a sign also has a natural polarity point by house: i.e. Mars in Scorpio in the 7th House would have a natural polarity of not only Taurus within Scorpio, but the 1st House as the polarity to the 7th. These natural polarity points by House are also automatically evolved towards once the Soul has made a choice to evolve which, again, is symbolized by the main EA paradigm.
It is because these natural polarities within the signs and houses that naturally evolve, once the Soul has made a choice to evolve, that JWG never really taught about them. He did so because there do in fact naturally evolve in this way. He did this intentionally so as not to create such an overwhelming amount of evolutionary procedures that could potentially confuse students, but of course overwhelm any given client. It is enough to know the core EA paradigm, how it works, and how to apply it to one's life. The rest of these natural evolutionary points take care of themselves.
Over his long career JWG only once, to my knowledge, taught about these other polarity points of the planets, and the houses they are in. And that is in a long workshop he held in Holland called "From Karma to Dharma'.
God Bless, Rad
Thank you so much Rad, for your patience and guidance.
All the best,
Serban