Hello Community,
I know of a 7 year old whose own parents simply don't know how to "deal" with his behavior. I'm grateful to know his chart, that I can cultivate a deeper understanding of this soul.
I've been contemplating what his ea stage is and was wondering if it would be an appropriate learning experience if we worked with this as the next real life ea stage practice thread?
If so, I won't get started with that for a few days as I want to focus fully on Rad's practice thread first.
God Bless
Ari Moshe
I sense this is a very important thing to look into too, Ari. So glad you brought it up. Great idea.
Thanks,
Dhyana
Hi Ari,
That would be fine to do.
God Bless, Rad
Hi Ari,
Looking forward to it.
Peace,
Ellen
I've been thinking about how to post this here in a way that I feel is considerate to the souls of the chats I will be posting. I don't think they will ever visit this site, however this is vulnerable information so I am going to edit my first post of this thread.
And all the names used will be made up.
What I think a good way to proceed is to describe the child as best as I can. Eventually I will post his chart and the charts of his parents as well as their estimated ea state in order to provide as broad of a context as possible.
This child is the eldest of 3- lives in a Jewish orthodox town in a suburb of nyc. Lets call him Max.
His parents are likely both early first stage individuated- living within the context of the orthodox culture, they send their children to Jewish day schools and camps. They themselves do not live that lifestyle and seem ambivalent about their own spiritual beliefs. However, they are both struggling to fit in to the community- to be financially better off than they are and to socially fit in.
He is currently 7 and a half years old- just recently completed his first Saturn square (mazal tov!)
Everyone has always known him to be a very gentle loving boy, yet also conceited and very much in his head. He has always loved math, working out long math problems, accumulating facts about animals- in particular cross breed animals (like the liger or the zorse).
He likes to tell adults the things that he has accomplished- talking on and on about abstract ideas that concepts that you will either understand or not understand.
He is very competative- as he has gotten older I've noticed that he tends to lie and cheat when we play games together. He seems to have an impulsive need to win all the time, to be the best. He self congratulates often- and as mentioned, will easily speak about his accomplishments.
I notice that he communicates and treats his younger children with great intuition and respect- he seems to be a natural leader and knows how to talk to his younger siblings in respectful ways. HOWEVER he gets easily triggered. As he has gotten older, I've been noticing that he is getting more easily frustrated when people don't understand what he is saying, even if it's his younger brother. In such situations, he does not seem to have a social awareness of the people around him- he becomes very in his own world.
Loud sudden noices also seem to irritate him- like when his little brother is yelling, Max will turn on a very stern voice and yell back at his brother "STOP YELLING!" I can tell it's more than him just mimicking the adults, he is actually irritated.
Recently Max's reactive behavior to stimuli has intensified. This has of course scared his parents. At the park one day a boy accidentally pushed him. Max responded by jumping on the boy and trying his hardest to hurt him. He exclaimed to an adult "I'm gonna kill him". It was very intense.
A couple weeks ago Max was kicked out of his orthodox summer camp. I've been told that he has been bullied (bc socially he doesn't fit in too well- he's mostly in his own world, looking for bugs and talking to adults- the kids make fun of him), and that one day he latched back at some kids and started violently hitting them. This resulted in being kicked out of camp. Of course this also lead to great feelings of powerlessness.
At home later that week he got into a rage when one of his parents was trying to lay down the rules (I don't know what the specific context was) but the general gist of it was he was feeling very imposed on, and WANTED OUT. I understand that inwardly he feels very angry. What he did in that home on that day was he started breaking everything he could break. He threathened to kill his entire family- putting both of his parents to tears.
His grandfather came to pick him up to find the apartment was a wreck. Max was totally calm and was happy to spend some time with grandfather. He's been living with his grandparents (and myself) for a week now. He has returned to his home in NYC once to see a therapist who prescribed him medication (I'll get back to you soon on what medication was prescribed).
I play with him a lot- we make art together. He loves to draw, loves to create- and likes doing so "out of the box". The opportunity to explore his own creativity on his own terms seems very important to him. When he accomplishes something, he is so proud of himself. It's almost like he's just a kid- playful and loving. Yet when something happens that scares him, or something that he perceives as an attack- his defenses go up and suddenly he's in flight or fight response.
We draw together, and I am amazed at his own creativity- the ideas he will come up with. And he never imposed them upon me- he just expects me to make up my own ideas and do them too. He also has the ability to appreciate the creativity of other people.
I've asked some questions to him to get a sense of his overall soul awareness:
What happens after death?
"How could I know? there's no way I can know that"
who do you think you were in a past life?
"How could I know that?"
His answers come from a logical place- there does not seem to be an overt interest in the mystical or spiritual dimensions.
I've asked him about God as well- and his answers are not in anyway associated with any of the religious dogma he has been fed. This can also have something to do with his father. As his answers seems very similar to that of his father, who himself tends to be on the fence about everything.
He wants to be a medical scientist and cure death when he grows up. love it!
I feel that this soul is not in the consensus state- I say that merely on account of his open mindedness about spiritual matters. He doesn't have very calculated belief systems, yet does seem to be very identified with his logical mental faculties. He is still young, however I do not see that rebellion from the religious dogma of his school to be much of a theme (yet at least).
However I can certainly see the possibility of anywhere from first individuated to beginning of spiritual.
I introduced him to the i-ching for the hell of it. He loves tossing coins and asking questions. He asked me "how does it know?" So he's very open minded and curious about how things such as divination work.
He also really like yoga because we do it together all of the time. He also knows that I mediate a lot and knows to leave me alone when I do that. I think all of these things may be intentional imprints for this soul that may have significance later in life.
Something that makes me thing he is not in the spiritual is that intense competitive edge. He will share VERY easily. If someone asks for something, he will give it- he's not possessive in anyway. He is just very identified with winning. However the need to win is only in some contexts, like when playing games- and he loves games.
Also his dream to cure death is also descriptive of a very grandeur, larger than life, sense of purpose. Unless other mitigating factors indicate something else- to me that excludes spiritual state. THough I wouldn't be decisive about that just yet...
I'll stop writing now and give those who want to be involved in this the chance to respond
Ari Moshe
Hi Ari,
Can you post the birth data for him ?
God Bless, Rad
Hi Rad,
Would you generally recommend that when determining the ea state of a child, it's best to observe and correlate with the chart from the very beginning, as there are just too many possible conditioning factors that can get in the way of seeing the soul's ea state clearly w/out the chart?
Also, do you have any other advice for determining the ea state of a child?
(http://i417.photobucket.com/albums/pp255/arimoshe/Maxastro.jpg)
Ari Moshe
Hi Ari,
The best way to determine the EA state of a child is through observations, and asking specific types of questions like you have this boy. The observations of what naturally interests the child, and also how they interact with other children, adults, and how they behave is socialized situations. Recently I had a mother who has a seven year old daugther tell me that he daughter told her that she feels so 'different' than her classmates, and can find no one to really play with who is 'like me'.
God Bless, Rad
Hi Ari,
I have a suggestion that might be of use perhaps;
--When I start asking my children questions (to see where they actually vibrating, at a soul level) I often start out talking about love, or about something or someone they love -- what the feel love for, what it feels like to be loved, and I inquire about the different flavors love might take on for them.
It seems that once we start talking about love, they begin to get out of their head and more into their emotional bodies. Then I can kind of discriminate better what is something they are "parroting" or actually "experiencing" for themself. I can sense it in my own emotional body and my intuition starts kicking in to a higher gear, u know?
And sometimes they say one thing, but I can FEEL or sense another (what they are being on a FEELING level, sometimes even in spite of what they are saying in words --u know?
From there, it seems then I may be able to have them actually "feel out" the deeper questions of life --like why do you FEEL we are here>, what do you FEEL we come from, what do you FEEL the point is-- or things like that... always trying to remember to use words like "feel", or anything that keeps them out of their head as much as possible.
..Well, just a suggestion for you, especially considering that this young one you speak of here seems to have a tendency towards iidentifying with his logical mental faculties, as you put it.
All Love To You Ari.
Dhyana
Ps. Sometimes I have even put my hand on their solar plexus area and said to them something like "what is it that this says (or is telling you), not ur head?" ...
Love, Dhyana
Hi Ari,
Since no one seems to be responding yet I will share some about what I see in terms of 'how to handle' him relative to the situation with his parents, rule making.
This boy has Pluto in the 5th which is trine his Jupiter in Leo in the 1st, that being opposed by Uranus in the 7th. Of course his Pluto is conjunct Mercury and both are opposed by a retro Saturn in Gemini in the 11th, and he has Mars,Venus, and the Moon in the 4th which then comes back through his 5th House Pluto.
The bottom line in this kind of Soul is that they will never accept direct confrontation and rule making at all. This will always create a defensive reaction, and rebellion, is such a Soul as symbolized by the above pattern. This is a Soul who has had other lifetimes of absolute power and control over it's life, and has had some lifetimes of having absolute power and control over other people. He has memories within him of being treated as a King, of having others bow down to him. This of course contributes to the defensive and rebellious reactions in the face of others making rules and limitations for him.
One of the best ways to deal with him in the context of making rules, limitations because of those rules, is to take a Socratic position with him. This is symbolized by his Pluto/Mercury in Sagittarius, and those are trine his Jupiter in Leo in the 1st. So an example of that would be for the parents to create another kind of dialogue where they ask him to pretend that he is a parent of a child, and then describe to him various situations or behavior that 'his' child was affecting. And then to ask him, as an imagined parent, how would he then parent that child ? What would he if the child did this or that ? In essence this then creates a situation where the boy himself would come up with his own rules, or consequences to specific behaviors, that he would then be sharing with the parents. This would then connect him to the immediacy of his own life, his own behaviors, and create a situation of an AGREED UPON APPROACH by both he and his parents. Thus, they could together create the 'rules' and 'consequences' for various behaviors together. This would also help him learn one of the ongoing lessons of his Soul which is learning to accept the responsibility in his own behaviors.
God Bless, Rad
Hi Rad - I have a question about your analysis - how do you interpret this boy's sun being conjunct his south node? Does this make his evolutionary lessons the central theme in his life, say as opposed to a chart where pluto may be "tucked out of the way", and therefore not so obvious?
thanks for any insight you could share.
Hi Ari,
In addition to what Rad and Dhyana wrote, I wanted to post what I had been thinking in terms of what very little I know about children. A key book for me in terms of understanding myself and thus understanding my developmental needs as a child, in hindsight, was a book called: Natural Learning Rhythms: How and When Your Children Learn (title may not be exact). It's by Josette and Sambhava Luvmour. There are, of course, many good books on understanding and helping children grow. What I remember from this book that seems to relate to this boy is that the age of 7, give or take, is a very key year in terms of growth in a child. At such key, or sensitive, times, conditions have to be just right and there has to be a huge willingness on the part of those raising the children to tune into the child - to understand their "bad behavior" as signals that they are now in or entering a very key time in terms of their development. Often, during these times, there can be regression of behavior, and certainly there can be outbursts, difficult behavior, etc. All of this is signaling the parents, though, that this is a very important time. What does the child ACTUALLY need in terms of his/her development. In a sense, that question to me demands a willingness to perceive who the child actually is. As Rad's post shows, astrology can help a TON there.
Also, around 7 is a time, if I remember correctly, that that kind of sweetness you are describing begins to manifest. (I could have this wrong, but it is what I remember.) I bring this up, and also the above, because I am not sure yet that I can see through these developmental signs/needs to his evolutionary stage. I think here Dhyana's suggestion might yield some insights. Beyond that, I have to think about it.
Perhaps the question, what is it that he's wanting right now, could yield some insight. What would a Consensus child going through the particular growth of a 7 year old want vs an individuated vs a spiritual...?
Some thoughts for now. I will think more about this and hopefully have something more helpful re: evolutionary stage. But I did want to at least post this.
Peace,
Ellen
Hi Ari,
Just remembered this re: the stages of development in the book I referenced in my prior post. Up until about the age of 7 (all children will mature at their own rate, so 7 is not meant to be exact, just a ballpark figure), the children are in a stage of development the Luvmours call Body-Being. About the age of 7, they begin to transition into a stage of development the Luvmours call Emotional-Being. This lasts until 11 or 12 I think (I could have that wrong). Anyway, pretty self-explanatory. The primary developmental focus of Body-Being is the body - you could say that this is what drives the evolution, developmentally speaking, of the child. The primary developmental focus of Emotional Being is the emotional nature and, again, you could say that what drives the evolution of the child during this stage, developmentally speaking, is the emotional nature of the child. I'm not sure they say this themselves, but it's how I think of it.
Given this, one question I would have, re: discerning the evolutionary stage of Max, is whether or not his tendency towards left-brain thinking is in any way indicative of evolutionary stage.... In terms of his preference to be around adults (if I have that correct), that could be 1) intellectual precociousness and/or 2) perhaps an indicator of the transition he seems to be undergoing, with body-being, perhaps, feeling more secure around adults (this is me just speculating), while, as he moves further into emotional being, perhaps he will prefer to be with children his own age..... This is definitely posed as a question - something to think about w/ regard to thinking about evolutionary stage.
Peace,
Ellen
Wow these are amazing insights.
Rad, I'm really grateful that you shared that interpretation. In terms of evolutionary state, do you already have a sense of where he is at based on what I wrote? I feel confident in having ruled out consensus- just based on the nature of his open mindedness.
Ellen, thanks for sharing that info. In case you weren't already aware- 7 years of age, astrologically is roughly when the first Saturn square occurs. We can see that he just completed this earlier this past year. JWG teaches that at this stage of life the center of gravity (Saturn) of the ego shifts from mother, to which ever parent is socially deemed to have more social authority (tends to be father in this current patriarchy). Thus a social awareness begins to emerge, and the soul's own individuality, the ego it has created, begins to manifest itself in social behavior.
Given his chart, as I understand it, the semi-sextile between the sn and the Moon, with the Moon squaring Neptune in Aquarius in the 7th, all relative to the Pluto, it's aspects to Mercury and Jupiter, the ruler of the sn- we see that in prior lifetimes he had very clearly felt himself to be special, different- to inhabit this planet with a unique purpose- this has all translated into lacking a concrete social awareness of the world around him (gemini 11th house nn)- being blind in his own reality and expecting everyone else to go along with that. It seems he has been the source of abandonment for others, such as his own family and relationships, and lacked the DESIRE to learn how to listen to other people- as he was very absorbed in his own narcissism.
Whatever his ea stage is, it's clear that he comes into this life with displaced emotions, based on not getting the emotional support, validation, and social support for who he is. This lack of emotional support, attention and social support seems necessary to teach him a lesson which is to supply for his own emotional needs through true friendship and cooperation with others. Rad, was this an accurate understanding of the Moon relative to the evolutionary and karmic signatures of the chart?
So I share that because, at this time in his life, given to the first quarter Saturn square, he is beginning the face the limitations of his own consciousness relative to the social world that he lives in. And naturally, he's set it up to feel socially different, and to time and time again experience the negative effects of acting out of no consideration for others.
Also note that Cancer is intercepted in his 12th house, and of course so is Capricorn in the 6th. Both houses are ruled by his nodal rulers.
I think this points to a naiveté that all of his emotional needs would be taken care of. Cancer ruled by the moon which is squaring Neptune, which is sextile his sn- this translated into personal relationships, where there was very little effort made on his part to be emotionally available. Capricorn ruled by Saturn retro seems to say that a lesson in self improvement in this life is learning how to be a part of a community, there is a need to develop a more precise awareness of how his social reality is constructed, and to meaningfully participate in it as an equal with others (this is also indicated by the ruler of his sn full phase opposition to Neptune in Aquarius in the 7th).
He's going to have many brilliant ideas, the key is to share them with the world for the sake of helping others and improving the overall quality of life. In order to do that he's going to have to learn how to share these ideas in a way that other people respect him for who he is, not based on his expectations to be respected at all costs. (Mercury as ruler of nn conjunt Pluto which is conjunct sn in Sag in the 5th). I understand why Rad offered this Socratic approach, as this chart indicates that he simply doesn't know how to live in this world outside of his own box.
It's funny, as I look into his chart- even though I'm consciously attempting to interpret the basic archetypes w/out projecting an ea stage onto this soul- I find that I just intuitively feel that he is third stage individuated.
Rad do you, or anyone else have any suggestions as to how to deepen my intuition in this regard. Ways to validate it/ check it's accuracy? JWG recommended looking into the eyes of the child. I tried that, I'm not sure what I was able to pick up from that other than possibly individuated.
God Bless,
Ari Moshe
Hi Ari,
Quote from: ari moshe on Aug 18, 2010, 08:45 PM
Wow these are amazing insights.
Rad, I'm really grateful that you shared that interpretation. In terms of evolutionary state, do you already have a sense of where he is at based on what I wrote? I feel confident in having ruled out consensus- just based on the nature of his open mindedness.
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Just based on what you have shared, although I would want to know more about the child, but based on what you shared I would say somewhere in the 3rd Stage Individuate. I would base that on his statement, when you brought up death with him, that he manifested a desire to find a way to stop death for people. That reflects a consciousness with the 3rd Stage individuated relative to being able to move social systems forwards in all kinds of ways, including medically of course. So just based on what you have shared it would be that. Also, another indicator of at least Individuated in general, was when you shared about him doing his own thing relative the group at camp, and being judged/ persecuted for it.
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Ellen, thanks for sharing that info. In case you weren't already aware- 7 years of age, astrologically is roughly when the first Saturn square occurs. We can see that he just completed this earlier this past year. JWG teaches that at this stage of life the center of gravity (Saturn) of the ego shifts from mother, to which ever parent is socially deemed to have more social authority (tends to be father in this current patriarchy). Thus a social awareness begins to emerge, and the soul's own individuality, the ego it has created, begins to manifest itself in social behavior.
Given his chart, as I understand it, the semi-sextile between the sn and the Moon, with the Moon squaring Neptune in Aquarius in the 7th, all relative to the Pluto, it's aspects to Mercury and Jupiter, the ruler of the sn- we see that in prior lifetimes he had very clearly felt himself to be special, different- to inhabit this planet with a unique purpose- this has all translated into lacking a concrete social awareness of the world around him (gemini 11th house nn)- being blind in his own reality and expecting everyone else to go along with that. It seems he has been the source of abandonment for others, such as his own family and relationships, and lacked the DESIRE to learn how to listen to other people- as he was very absorbed in his own narcissism.
Whatever his ea stage is, it's clear that he comes into this life with displaced emotions, based on not getting the emotional support, validation, and social support for who he is. This lack of emotional support, attention and social support seems necessary to teach him a lesson which is to supply for his own emotional needs through true friendship and cooperation with others. Rad, was this an accurate understanding of the Moon relative to the evolutionary and karmic signatures of the chart?
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Yes.
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Rad do you, or anyone else have any suggestions as to how to deepen my intuition in this regard. Ways to validate it/ check it's accuracy? JWG recommended looking into the eyes of the child. I tried that, I'm not sure what I was able to pick up from that other than possibly individuated.
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Only in the ways that I already wrote Ari.
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God Bless, Rad
Hi bluesky,
Quote from: bluesky on Aug 18, 2010, 12:46 PM
Hi Rad - I have a question about your analysis - how do you interpret this boy's sun being conjunct his south node? Does this make his evolutionary lessons the central theme in his life, say as opposed to a chart where pluto may be "tucked out of the way", and therefore not so obvious?
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In his context it means that his Soul is bringing forwards from other lifetimes highly developed capacities and abilities that will serve as the very purpose of his life. One of the primary archetypal dynamics, or themes, that is being brought forwards correlates to his capacity to innovate and invent for the betterment of others. The evolutionary lessons for ANY SOUL correlate the the central theme of the Soul's life. When the evolutionary symbols in a chart, starting with Pluto, APPEAR to be 'tucked away' that will generally mean a Soul that has decided to take a rest, or break, from evolving. A time out so to speak. And there will always be reasons for that when you see or observe it in a chart/ person.
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God Bless, Rad
thanks for the insight Rad.
Quote from: ari moshe on Aug 18, 2010, 08:45 PM
Wow these are amazing insights.
Rad, I'm really grateful that you shared that interpretation. In terms of evolutionary state, do you already have a sense of where he is at based on what I wrote? I feel confident in having ruled out consensus- just based on the nature of his open mindedness.
Ellen, thanks for sharing that info. In case you weren't already aware- 7 years of age, astrologically is roughly when the first Saturn square occurs. We can see that he just completed this earlier this past year. JWG teaches that at this stage of life the center of gravity (Saturn) of the ego shifts from mother, to which ever parent is socially deemed to have more social authority (tends to be father in this current patriarchy). Thus a social awareness begins to emerge, and the soul's own individuality, the ego it has created, begins to manifest itself in social behavior.
Hi Ari,
Thanks so much for sharing this. I forgot about the Saturn sq. at this age and certainly did not know about it in terms of the detail you provided. This to me is a much clearer picture of this transition than anything I've read (which has not been much) and unmuddies some things for me; while his individuality was definitely seeming quite developed and strong, I was feeling unsure how much of that could be trusted (in my own mind) until I had a better understanding of how this transition (as described in the book I referred to) might be "coloring" a true expression of himself. My sense now is that his individuality, as you describe it, is quite strong and pronounced, and is not at issue and (I am assuming I am right about this) there really isn't in him any uncertainty about who he is (would you say that this is correct?)
Given his chart, as I understand it, the semi-sextile between the sn and the Moon, with the Moon squaring Neptune in Aquarius in the 7th, all relative to the Pluto, it's aspects to Mercury and Jupiter, the ruler of the sn- we see that in prior lifetimes he had very clearly felt himself to be special, different- to inhabit this planet with a unique purpose- this has all translated into lacking a concrete social awareness of the world around him (gemini 11th house nn)- being blind in his own reality and expecting everyone else to go along with that. It seems he has been the source of abandonment for others, such as his own family and relationships, and lacked the DESIRE to learn how to listen to other people- as he was very absorbed in his own narcissism.
If he is 3rd Ind as Rad has suggested, moving beyond his own self-absorption would be a major dynamic for him, with the need for 3rd Ind to find constructive ways to participate in and better society. If he has been 3rd Ind in prior lives, perhaps his way of bettering society was to be the autocratic (presumably wise and benevolent - I say this without looking at the chart) king. However, his Soul chose the United States, suggesting that for further growth to occur, he must learn a new way of relating to others and a new way of integrating his purpose for the betterment of the collective... (I am intentionally not looking at the chart at this time as I am wanting to do this thinking as much as I am able just on the stages, how they might play out.... If my reasoning is in error, someone please correct it. Thanks, Ellen
Whatever his ea stage is, it's clear that he comes into this life with displaced emotions, based on not getting the emotional support, validation, and social support for who he is. This lack of emotional support, attention and social support seems necessary to teach him a lesson which is to supply for his own emotional needs through true friendship and cooperation with others. Rad, was this an accurate understanding of the Moon relative to the evolutionary and karmic signatures of the chart?
So I share that because, at this time in his life, given to the first quarter Saturn square, he is beginning the face the limitations of his own consciousness relative to the social world that he lives in. And naturally, he's set it up to feel socially different, and to time and time again experience the negative effects of acting out of no consideration for others.
Also note that Cancer is intercepted in his 12th house, and of course so is Capricorn in the 6th. Both houses are ruled by his nodal rulers.
I think this points to a naiveté that all of his emotional needs would be taken care of. Cancer ruled by the moon which is squaring Neptune, which is sextile his sn- this translated into personal relationships, where there was very little effort made on his part to be emotionally available. Capricorn ruled by Saturn retro seems to say that a lesson in self improvement in this life is learning how to be a part of a community, there is a need to develop a more precise awareness of how his social reality is constructed, and to meaningfully participate in it as an equal with others (this is also indicated by the ruler of his sn full phase opposition to Neptune in Aquarius in the 7th).
He's going to have many brilliant ideas, the key is to share them with the world for the sake of helping others and improving the overall quality of life. In order to do that he's going to have to learn how to share these ideas in a way that other people respect him for who he is, not based on his expectations to be respected at all costs. (Mercury as ruler of nn conjunt Pluto which is conjunct sn in Sag in the 5th). I understand why Rad offered this Socratic approach, as this chart indicates that he simply doesn't know how to live in this world outside of his own box.
It's funny, as I look into his chart- even though I'm consciously attempting to interpret the basic archetypes w/out projecting an ea stage onto this soul- I find that I just intuitively feel that he is third stage individuated.
Rad do you, or anyone else have any suggestions as to how to deepen my intuition in this regard. Ways to validate it/ check it's accuracy? JWG recommended looking into the eyes of the child. I tried that, I'm not sure what I was able to pick up from that other than possibly individuated.
God Bless,
Ari Moshe
Hi Ellen,
QuoteIf he is 3rd Ind as Rad has suggested, moving beyond his own self-absorption would be a major dynamic for him, with the need for 3rd Ind to find constructive ways to participate in and better society. If he has been 3rd Ind in prior lives, perhaps his way of bettering society was to be the autocratic (presumably wise and benevolent - I say this without looking at the chart) king. However, his Soul chose the United States, suggesting that for further growth to occur, he must learn a new way of relating to others and a new way of integrating his purpose for the betterment of the collective... (I am intentionally not looking at the chart at this time as I am wanting to do this thinking as much as I am able just on the stages, how they might play out.... If my reasoning is in error, someone please correct it. Thanks, Ellen
I would say, that given his behavior, and w/out looking at the chart- it's clear that coming into this life, the soul naturally expects to be treated like a king. To me what you said makes a lot of sense.
In terms of choosing the united states- the inflated ego of the third individuated can manifest anywhere of course, and in this case if he was treated like a king in the past, this could have happened anywhere in the world w/out actually have been a literal king. He may have made some great discoveries in the past that brought him fame and esteem, to me this could have happened in the U.S.
Ari Moshe
Quote from: ari moshe on Aug 19, 2010, 03:56 PM
Hi Ellen,
QuoteIf he is 3rd Ind as Rad has suggested, moving beyond his own self-absorption would be a major dynamic for him, with the need for 3rd Ind to find constructive ways to participate in and better society. If he has been 3rd Ind in prior lives, perhaps his way of bettering society was to be the autocratic (presumably wise and benevolent - I say this without looking at the chart) king. However, his Soul chose the United States, suggesting that for further growth to occur, he must learn a new way of relating to others and a new way of integrating his purpose for the betterment of the collective... (I am intentionally not looking at the chart at this time as I am wanting to do this thinking as much as I am able just on the stages, how they might play out.... If my reasoning is in error, someone please correct it. Thanks, Ellen
I would say, that given his behavior, and w/out looking at the chart- it's clear that coming into this life, the soul naturally expects to be treated like a king. To me what you said makes a lot of sense.
In terms of choosing the united states- the inflated ego of the third individuated can manifest anywhere of course, and in this case if he was treated like a king in the past, this could have happened anywhere in the world w/out actually have been a literal king. He may have made some great discoveries in the past that brought him fame and esteem, to me this could have happened in the U.S.
Good point, Ari. Thanks. Ellen
Ari Moshe
Hi Ari,
I'm wondering if you are still feeling that Max's evolutionary stage needs to be determined or if, given Rad's input, you feel pretty comfortable with your understanding of Max's stage...
Ellen
Hi Ellen,
I do intuit that he is third individuated- a soul who has been there for a while in fact. I don't see any signs of spiritual- and in correlation to his chart, there is nothing that indicates to me any kind of "hiding" that would mask that. And he is definitely not consensus.
However we can continue to explore this for the purpose of learning if anyone wishes.
Ari Moshe
Hi Ari,
I posted this a bit ago but the glitch I was experiencing a few days ago is back: my posts aren't posting and I believe I am not seeing new posts by others. So I just want to try this again to see if it posts this time.
The upshot is that I would like to pursue this a little more for the sake of learning/practice and I am hoping that there might be others who also wish to participate - perhaps just posting their own assessment and reasoning (I don't think we'll get much disagreement about his stage). I know that others are quite busy with other threads and other matters in their lives, so no expectations - just a wish.
I'm working on my own reasoning about Max's stage and will post that when I'm done.
Peace,
Ellen
Hi, I would like to know why Max is considered 3rd individuated rather than 1st or 2nd (since Ari says he's neither consensus nor spiritual). At his age, he hasn't had an opportunity/need to display 1st IND. (potential double life) or 2nd INV. (alienated, living on the fringes).
Quote from: bluesky on Aug 21, 2010, 02:41 PM
Hi, I would like to know why Max is considered 3rd individuated rather than 1st or 2nd (since Ari says he's neither consensus nor spiritual). At his age, he hasn't had an opportunity/need to display 1st IND. (potential double life) or 2nd INV. (alienated, living on the fringes).
Hi bluesky,
I don't have a definitive answer to this but my own thinking is that he seems to have a very strong sense of self-identity and he reacts VERY strongly - to the point of verbalizing that he wants to kill those whom he feels are threatening this sense of self-identity. I don't think 1st ind would 1) have such a strong sense of who they are and 2) react so strongly to protect their sense of self (1st Ind would be trying very hard to fit in). I'd like to hear what Ari has to say...
Peace,
Ellen
Hi bluesky,
Re: 2nd Ind: I don't get the sense he's here, either. He seems way too focused inwardly - trying to develop that - rather than outwardly - resisting the forces working against him. His outbursts to me seem more the result of his own efforts to be fully absorbed in himself - his interests, mental pursuits, imagination, etc - being blocked/interfered with/etc. To me it seems that 2nd Ind would not have reached such a level of deep inner absorption. But I think you raise a good point about his age. And I don't really have a sense yet how that factors in with someone so young.
Peace,
Ellen
QuoteHi Ari,
I posted this a bit ago but the glitch I was experiencing a few days ago is back: my posts aren't posting and I believe I am not seeing new posts by others. So I just want to try this again to see if it posts this time.
Oh Dear! Is this Mercury rx on your Virgo ac or something? Cool. I'm excited that we get to explore this more.
QuoteHi, I would like to know why Max is considered 3rd individuated rather than 1st or 2nd (since Ari says he's neither consensus nor spiritual). At his age, he hasn't had an opportunity/need to display 1st IND. (potential double life) or 2nd INV. (alienated, living on the fringes).
Here's my reasoning:
First individuated is about the process of indivduation itself. The soul evolves by gradudally realizing it's uniquness in relation to the consensus. Max, even though his parents are first individuated, and he is being raised in what I think is a second stage consensus world (Jewish orthodox camp for example) his self awareness expresses as a very clear and definitive sense of a revolutionary, global centric destiny (i.e. to find a cure for death...) He is also very interested in other cultures, other religions- when I ask him "what music should I play" he'll answer "African" or "Jazz" or "Indian" He is, on his own accord, very culturally aware- his consciousness is not limited to a fixed ethnicity- nor does he express any signs of social alienation for not being ethnocentric.
He does express signs of not fitting in. That is totally his life- he does not fit in to the status quo. However he isn't trying to fit in.
He does come into this lifetime with unresolved trauma. His behavior clearly indicates this. When he is attacked, suddenly fight or flight comes up. The boy literally becomes motionless and fixated on revenge. Like he is being consumed by a paralyzing anger.
When correlating to the chart, this is all indicated by the south node ruler in opposition to Uranus in Aquarius. Venus is the ruler of his 11th house- the house of his nn. And Venus, which is in Scorpio in the 4th, conjunct moon and Mars, squares Neptune in Aquarius in the 7th which is ruled again by Uranus, which leads us back to the south node via it's opposition to the ruler of the sn.
Does anyone feel that I excluded spiritual too soon?
Ellen,
QuoteHi bluesky,
I don't have a definitive answer to this but my own thinking is that he seems to have a very strong sense of self-identity and he reacts VERY strongly - to the point of verbalizing that he wants to kill those whom he feels are threatening this sense of self-identity. I don't think 1st ind would 1) have such a strong sense of who they are and 2) react so strongly to protect their sense of self (1st Ind would be trying very hard to fit in). I'd like to hear what Ari has to say...
Peace,
Ellen
His desire to kill someone is actually because he perceives that he is being attacked. He literally perceives a reality that is a function of unresolved trauma. So I personally don't think this would be an appropriate justification for third individuated. First stage individuated does have an innate insecurity about not fitting in to the consensus, but it doesn't mean that every soul in first individuated will not be violent in the way that max is.
Ari Moshe
Hi Ari and Ellen,
I am wondering too, if 1st spiritual should be excluded.
about the "wanting to kill"...my own opinion is that is 2nd individuated. I say that because at a minimum, that stage is characterized by defensiveness (not necessarily a negative connotation, think self-defense) and I'm thinking that 3rd ind. would have better coping mechanisms...but he is still very young, so I think you would really have to know him, like do you do, Ari.
for what it's worth, I would put Max on the cusp of 2nd and 3rd individuated. if this was true, he could easily move back and forth between them, displaying qualities of both.
************
One more thing - Ari, do you notice any self-destructive tendencies in Max?
Quote from: ari moshe on Aug 21, 2010, 06:45 PM
Does anyone feel that I excluded spiritual too soon?
All I can say is I am SO not the person to ask! ;D But for real: the one thought I had about this is that, because he is being raised by 1st Ind trying to find a way to fit into Consensus, his exposure to the spiritual world has been fairly limited. If there are no hiding signatures (is this true? Cancer/Cap in 12th/6th intercepted; Moon/Scorpio/4th - I don't know if this constitutes hiding, but I wonder...), why would a 3rd Ind (or beyond) Soul choose to incarnate in a 1st Ind family trying to fit in....? Except perhaps, to learn humility. Hmmm, that could suggest spiritual in itself. But, given Rad's input, it could simply be for the purpose of learning to integrate his individuated sense of self and developed talents into the larger social fabric. He is by nature very self-absorbed (yes?). Yet his chart suggests a push to move beyond this (5th house=past; 11th house=future; 7th house emphasized, as is 4th).
Ellen,
QuoteHi bluesky,
I don't have a definitive answer to this but my own thinking is that he seems to have a very strong sense of self-identity and he reacts VERY strongly - to the point of verbalizing that he wants to kill those whom he feels are threatening this sense of self-identity. I don't think 1st ind would 1) have such a strong sense of who they are and 2) react so strongly to protect their sense of self (1st Ind would be trying very hard to fit in). I'd like to hear what Ari has to say...
Peace,
Ellen
His desire to kill someone is actually because he perceives that he is being attacked. He literally perceives a reality that is a function of unresolved trauma. So I personally don't think this would be an appropriate justification for third individuated. First stage individuated does have an innate insecurity about not fitting in to the consensus, but it doesn't mean that every soul in first individuated will not be violent in the way that max is.
Ari Moshe
Thanks for clarifying this, Ari.
Ellen
Hi Ari,
Here's my thinking to date: with no hiding signatures as you pointed out and no skipped steps, assessing his evolutionary state should be more straight forward than if these signatures were present.
Consensus: Based on your descriptions, there seems to be no evidence for consensus: there seems to be no evidence that he desires to fit in in any way, no evidence that his behavior is rooted in an effort to belong at the cost of his own individuality. To me, this would also rule out 1st ind.
Spiritual: Based on your descriptions, there seems to be no evidence for spiritual. He is open-minded, but does not seem, within himself, to be particularly oriented to the spiritual. How much of this has to do with limited exposure, until recently, is a question for me; if I am understanding correctly, his exposure has been to orthodox (consensus) religion and at the same time to parental ambivalence - they themselves do not feel committed, yet they want very much to belong. He likes yoga and practices a lot with you. And he is very aware of your meditation practice and very respectful of it. But that seems more to do with the open-mindedness of Individuated rather than the spiritual desire of the Spiritual stage. Also, with no hiding or skipped step signatures, there is no reason to assume that indeed he is spiritual but chose a 1st individuated household to be born into to either work some things through or to avoid some sort of persecution (note however that Cap is intercepted in 6th, Cancer in 12th, Chiron is in 6th and the Moon is in Scorpio in the 4th, Pluto rules the Moon, but not the 4th).
The case for Individuated:
1) he is very sensitive towards others and, perhaps more importantly, treats them with respect
2) he is intellectually curious and precocious; he thinks for himself
3) his outbursts suggest to me that he is guarding his individuality quite intensely - that it is so important to him that threats to it instigate a profound and automatic "me vs. them" response. Yet at the same time there is a sense that he already knows who he is; that that is not the issue. Rather, it's that he knows who he is and reacts when this feels to him to be threatened/challenged or when events do not play out as he feels they should given his strong inner sense of identity. This was already addressed by Ari in a prior post.
Some notes about his chart:
1) Pluto/Mars in last quarter balsamic phase (47 degrees =waning semi-square=primary life) letting go, preparing for new cycle
2) Sun conjunct Pluto (Quoting Rad: In his context it means that his Soul is bringing forwards from other lifetimes highly developed capacities and abilities that will serve as the very purpose of his life. One of the primary archetypal dynamics, or themes, that is being brought forwards correlates to his capacity to innovate and invent for the betterment of others. The evolutionary lessons for ANY SOUL correlate the the central theme of the Soul's life.)
3) Pluto/Neptune in Crescent Septile phase: fated events (Neptune in Aq/7th) involving others; fated events could also come in the form of shock/trauma that perhaps is not easily identifiable
4) Pluto/Sag/5th, SN/Sag/5th (ruler Jupiter/Leo/1st): carries within him from the past a sense of self-importance
5) NN/Gemini/11th (ruler Mercury/Sag/5th conjunct Pluto): developing intellect, expanding through connection with a variety of others/ideas/associations
6) Grand Trine: Neptune/NN/Moon (Neptune sextile Pluto): fated events possibly through family connections leading to growth/evolution; traumatic events arising from family meant to trigger evolution/growth
7) Saturn in Gemini in 11th trine Uranus/Aq/7th : challenges to the intellect and the trauma that results lead to evolutionary breakthroughs. Here's what JWG says about the waxing trine: The first quarter phase trine means that things have come to a temporary head with respect to evolutionary development. The person prior to this aspect has been struggling to actualize its own inherent individual expression of the two planets. It has come through many trials and tribulations. It has come through the need to instinctually assert itself and now it is time to develop it in the sense of total integration. The trine in the first quarter phase means that it is time to integrate this new evolutionary impulse within the ongoing daily context of the person's life. To have it a living reality every single day. Not something that is sought for or something to be held out as a carrot or a potential promise on yet another distant horizon, but to be established and lived out daily. The benefit of the trine in this arrangement is to have an understanding of all that has preceded it. To take the best of the past, i.e., to no longer fear it and to integrate it into the now, the best of both worlds. At best, this aspect demonstrates leadership, the courage to pioneer the new and knowing how to integrate it. That is the power of the trine. One the other hand, the characteristic of all non-stressful aspects is that the individual may reach a degree of comfortability and try to maintain just that and resist the impulse to change it. Thus, it maintains the status quo even if it is its own individual status quo.)
Hi Ellen, about being part of a family that is not in the same stage as himself - I was told by an EA astrologer that this kind of circumstance serves the purpose of contrast ie. between himself and them, and himself and the environment in general. The impression I got from this astrologer's response to my question about this was that it would help the person along (somehow, I guess).
About that hiding - Ari says he doesn't see that kind of a signature in Max's chart - but I'm hoping either of you could elaborate on such a "hiding" signature, if it doesn't throw the discussion off too much.
Quote from: bluesky on Aug 21, 2010, 08:04 PM
Hi Ellen, about being part of a family that is not in the same stage as himself - I was told by an EA astrologer that this kind of circumstance serves the purpose of contrast ie. between himself and them, and himself and the environment in general. The impression I got from this astrologer's response to my question about this was that it would help the person along (somehow, I guess).
Hi bluesky,
Thanks for this. I can see how for Max, being born into a 1st ind family oriented towards consensus could facilitate his evolution. I see it as having to do with the need to move beyond his own self-absorption and integrate his talents in a constructive way into the social fabric (assuming 3rd Ind, this would be to move society along).
About that hiding - Ari says he doesn't see that kind of a signature in Max's chart - but I'm hoping either of you could elaborate on such a "hiding" signature, if it doesn't throw the discussion off too much.
Hiding would be evidenced by a pronounced Neptune/12th house/Pisces signature in the chart. There doesn't seem to be much there. But I'm not sure how much weight should be given to an intercepted 12th house, and perhaps also Neptune's septile to Pluto...
Hi Ellen and Bluesky-
Thank God, I'm really busy at this time, so just wanted to let you know I wont be able to respond fully until tomorrow night or Monday.
God Bless,
Ari Moshe
ok, Ari.
Ellen,
Quote from: bluesky on Aug 21, 2010, 08:04 PM
About that hiding - Ari says he doesn't see that kind of a signature in Max's chart - but I'm hoping either of you could elaborate on such a "hiding" signature, if it doesn't throw the discussion off too much.
Hiding would be evidenced by a pronounced Neptune/12th house/Pisces signature in the chart. There doesn't seem to be much there. But I'm not sure how much weight should be given to an intercepted 12th house, and perhaps also Neptune's septile to Pluto...
[/quote]
Thanks, I was wondering about that.
Hi Bluesky,
Here is a link to a page with more discussion about "Piscean Hiding" etc. Scroll down the page a bit and start with what Steve began to share, and the few posts following...
https://forum.schoolofevolutionaryastrology.com/index.php/topic,181.75.html
Hope that helps.
Dhyana
HiAri, bluesky, All,
This quote of Steve's from another thread (see Dhyana's link above) leads me to believe Max is 3rd Ind. Here's the quote: "3rd stage individuated...the Soul is becoming increasingly aware of the existence of other spiritual realities, prior to its beginning to adopt them as the center of its way of life". Max was born into a 1st Ind family seeking belonging in consensus religion. His relationship with Ari is giving him exposure to "other spiritual realities" thus "increasing his awareness". Ari has stated that Max, at the age of 7, already has a very global understanding of the world and other people, suggesting prior lives in Ind. Rad has stated (and I think he was thinking in terms of 3rd Ind, but he would have to clarify this) that the Sun conjunct Pluto, in Max's case, is about bringing forward a special talent to move society along. With regard to bluesky's thinking of cusp 2nd/3rd Ind, maybe a good way to begin to explore that and clarify would be to consider how Sun conjunct Pluto would manifest in 2nd Ind. In terms of Max's outbursts suggesting 2nd Ind rather than 3rd, I'm not sure I agree given his age and given the evidence of prior life trauma. Though I can definitely see the point with this reasoning and am not entirely clear. However, it may just be something he has to work through. Cancer is one of the signs intercepted. And Mars is in Max's 4th. Max's self-absorption to me does not feel narcissistic necessarily nor does it feel defensive. It seems more like a profound inner need - to be in complete touch with himself at this time as part of his developmental process (so that later he will indeed be able to bring forward for the benefit of others his special talent; the evolutionary growth here would perhaps be that in this lifetime he can't stay there, but has to move beyond it.) But Ari would have to clarify all of this.
As for how Sun conjunct Pluto would manifest in 2nd Ind, this is where I get stumped. I'll have to think about it, but if anyone has any ideas, I'd be very interested in reading them.
Peace,
Ellen
thanks for that link Ellen, Dhyana! :)
Quote from: bluesky on Aug 22, 2010, 09:32 AM
thanks for that link Ellen.
Your welcome, bluesky, but I think it is Dhyana you want to thank. She did all the work of hunting it down and posting it... Thanks, Dhyana 8)
Ellen
OH, that's no biggy -- i knew where it was already.. ur so sweet Ellen
D ;D
Hi Bluesky,
QuoteHi Ari and Ellen,
I am wondering too, if 1st spiritual should be excluded.
about the "wanting to kill"...my own opinion is that is 2nd individuated. I say that because at a minimum, that stage is characterized by defensiveness (not necessarily a negative connotation, think self-defense) and I'm thinking that 3rd ind. would have better coping mechanisms...but he is still very young, so I think you would really have to know him, like do you do, Ari.
for what it's worth, I would put Max on the cusp of 2nd and 3rd individuated. if this was true, he could easily move back and forth between them, displaying qualities of both.
************
One more thing - Ari, do you notice any self-destructive tendencies in Max?
Wanting to kill as it is, is no reason to consider second individuated. The impulse to kill is a switch that turns on when he senses that he is under attack. Second stage individuated will easily manifest anger at the status quo, and try their hardest to maintain their own sense of individuality as to not get sucked back into the consensus. Max's anger and self defense has nothing to do with that. I also don't agree that third stage individuated would have 'better coping mechanims'. Have no third stage individuated souls ever committed murder?
The same concept is true for an idea that I think was discussed on the ashley thread. For example: a soul who is emotionally mature isn't necessarily more evolve than a soul who isn't emotionally mature. We can have a soul who is first stage spiritual who has immense build up of anger due to repression or hiding- this soul may be more out of touch with their emotions than a soul in the consensus state.
About being on the cusp between second and third: I don't see that because shows clear signs of already knowing his innate individuality, and what he wishes to contribute to the collective in terms of social innovation. This is a soul that is going to find ways to unlock it's creative potential to the MAX (hehe).
Ari Moshe
Oh yeah- good question Bluesky about self destructive tendencies. I do not notice any of that.
QuoteHere's my thinking to date: with no hiding signatures as you pointed out and no skipped steps, assessing his evolutionary state should be more straight forward than if these signatures were present.
I agree
Consensus: Based on your descriptions, there seems to be no evidence for consensus: there seems to be no evidence that he desires to fit in in any way, no evidence that his behavior is rooted in an effort to belong at the cost of his own individuality. To me, this would also rule out 1st ind.
Spiritual: Based on your descriptions, there seems to be no evidence for spiritual. He is open-minded, but does not seem, within himself, to be particularly oriented to the spiritual. How much of this has to do with limited exposure, until recently, is a question for me; if I am understanding correctly, his exposure has been to orthodox (consensus) religion and at the same time to parental ambivalence - they themselves do not feel committed, yet they want very much to belong. He likes yoga and practices a lot with you. And he is very aware of your meditation practice and very respectful of it. But that seems more to do with the open-mindedness of Individuated rather than the spiritual desire of the Spiritual stage. Also, with no hiding or skipped step signatures, there is no reason to assume that indeed he is spiritual but chose a 1st individuated household to be born into to either work some things through or to avoid some sort of persecution (note however that Cap is intercepted in 6th, Cancer in 12th, Chiron is in 6th and the Moon is in Scorpio in the 4th, Pluto rules the Moon, but not the 4th).
Will you explain that last point a bit more- what are you trying to show with those signatures?
The case for Individuated:
1) he is very sensitive towards others and, perhaps more importantly, treats them with respect
2) he is intellectually curious and precocious; he thinks for himself
3) his outbursts suggest to me that he is guarding his individuality quite intensely - that it is so important to him that threats to it instigate a profound and automatic "me vs. them" response. Yet at the same time there is a sense that he already knows who he is; that that is not the issue. Rather, it's that he knows who he is and reacts when this feels to him to be threatened/challenged or when events do not play out as he feels they should given his strong inner sense of identity. This was already addressed by Ari in a prior post.
Some notes about his chart:
1) Pluto/Mars in last quarter balsamic phase (47 degrees =waning semi-square=primary life) letting go, preparing for new cycle
2) Sun conjunct Pluto (Quoting Rad: In his context it means that his Soul is bringing forwards from other lifetimes highly developed capacities and abilities that will serve as the very purpose of his life. One of the primary archetypal dynamics, or themes, that is being brought forwards correlates to his capacity to innovate and invent for the betterment of others. The evolutionary lessons for ANY SOUL correlate the the central theme of the Soul's life.)
3) Pluto/Neptune in Crescent Septile phase: fated events (Neptune in Aq/7th) involving others; fated events could also come in the form of shock/trauma that perhaps is not easily identifiable
4) Pluto/Sag/5th, SN/Sag/5th (ruler Jupiter/Leo/1st): carries within him from the past a sense of self-importance
5) NN/Gemini/11th (ruler Mercury/Sag/5th conjunct Pluto): developing intellect, expanding through connection with a variety of others/ideas/associations
6) Grand Trine: Neptune/NN/Moon (Neptune sextile Pluto): fated events possibly through family connections leading to growth/evolution; traumatic events arising from family meant to trigger evolution/growth
7) Saturn in Gemini in 11th trine Uranus/Aq/7th : challenges to the intellect and the trauma that results lead to evolutionary breakthroughs. Here's what JWG says about the waxing trine: The first quarter phase trine means that things have come to a temporary head with respect to evolutionary development. The person prior to this aspect has been struggling to actualize its own inherent individual expression of the two planets. It has come through many trials and tribulations. It has come through the need to instinctually assert itself and now it is time to develop it in the sense of total integration. The trine in the first quarter phase means that it is time to integrate this new evolutionary impulse within the ongoing daily context of the person's life. To have it a living reality every single day. Not something that is sought for or something to be held out as a carrot or a potential promise on yet another distant horizon, but to be established and lived out daily. The benefit of the trine in this arrangement is to have an understanding of all that has preceded it. To take the best of the past, i.e., to no longer fear it and to integrate it into the now, the best of both worlds. At best, this aspect demonstrates leadership, the courage to pioneer the new and knowing how to integrate it. That is the power of the trine. One the other hand, the characteristic of all non-stressful aspects is that the individual may reach a degree of comfortability and try to maintain just that and resist the impulse to change it. Thus, it maintains the status quo even if it is its own individual status quo.)
Thank you Ellen- you made a lot of really good points!
Ari Moshe
Hi Ellen,
QuoteAs for how Sun conjunct Pluto would manifest in 2nd Ind, this is where I get stumped. I'll have to think about it, but if anyone has any ideas, I'd be very interested in reading them.
Here's my take on it:
The Sun correlates to the purpose of the life, it's the unique contribution that each soul presents to the world. Through the Sun, the entire chart finds creative expression and purpose. When the Sun is on Pluto, as I understand it, it refers to a special purpose that has been brought forth from prior lifetimes. The intent of course is to express that unique gift by way of the nn, it's ruler and the Pluto polarity point. Otherwise, the Pluto Sun conjunction can manifest as an intensely self focused orientation. In this case, with the ppp in the 11th, with Mercury bringing us right back to Pluto and the Sun, it implies that evolutionary necessity to learn to open his heart, to share himself in a way that serves the community, not just himself.
That being said, we can apply that archetype to second individuated if we wanted to see how that would manifest. All of these lessons take shape in the context of his own subculture/community. The sharp contrast in the third individuated is he is literally thinking about society en-large, as there is no longer any evolutionary need to remain isolated from society.
Ari Moshe
Quote from: ari moshe on Aug 22, 2010, 02:23 PM
Also, with no hiding or skipped step signatures, there is no reason to assume that indeed he is spiritual but chose a 1st individuated household to be born into to either work some things through or to avoid some sort of persecution (note however that Cap is intercepted in 6th, Cancer in 12th, Chiron is in 6th and the Moon is in Scorpio in the 4th, Pluto rules the Moon, but not the 4th).
Will you explain that last point a bit more- what are you trying to show with those signatures?
Hi Ari,
Sorry about that. I kind of dropped that in there without explaining. In a post after this one I ask the question as to whether or not these details might possibly indicate hiding.
Quote from: ari moshe on Aug 22, 2010, 02:35 PM
That being said, we can apply that archetype to second individuated if we wanted to see how that would manifest. All of these lessons take shape in the context of his own subculture/community. The sharp contrast in the third individuated is he is literally thinking about society en-large, as there is no longer any evolutionary need to remain isolated from society.
Ari Moshe
Thanks Ari. Makes gobs of sense. Given his desire to cure death, I would say 3rd Ind fits better. But here what I don't know is if that distinction (btw 2nd Ind & 3rd w/ regard to Sun conjunct Pluto) would be clear yet at 7. In other words, might a 7 year old 2nd Ind ALSO desire to cure death, yet as s/he grows, that desire is let go of as s/he focuses her/his attention on the 2nd Ind task of protecting her/his individuality and connecting up with others who have a similar desire? Still, I'm inclined to think 3rd Ind with Max. The level of self-absorption, which to me does not seem superficially narcissistic but instead seems like a very deep engagement with himself/his development, suggests to me that he is well-beyond 2nd Ind. The lack of evidence of confusion in him about who he is and what his life path is suggests to me that he is indeed 3rd Ind and not in transition to 1st spiritual just yet, though I suspect that is just around the bend - perhaps having to finish up the bringing forward of his special gift and then moving on.
Peace,
Ellen
Hi everyone, I wanted to provide an update here and also ask a question about a drug he is now on.
I recognize this is deviant from the standard rules of the mb.
He has been expelled from school- he alternates between being at his parents home, and being at my home with me and my parents. I've taken him to some first stage friends that do home schooling- and he loves it there. Those are very nurturing and loving enviroments. Meanwhile, everyone else in the family is pretty set on finding him a new school- this time in the public school system.
The main reason why I'm posting now is the doctors has prescribed him with "oppositional defiance disorder". Besides for making his parents and everyone else happy that they can now "know" what the "problem" is- they have prescribed him with valproic acid- 1 teaspoon twice daily. It's generally prescribed for ppl with severe depression, bi-polar, schizophrenia, or epilepsy.
I'm worried about this drug, it seems to have some pretty intense side effects. So I'm wondering if anyone who is familiar with drugs and chemistry can provide some astrological perspective on this?
Thank you, God bless,
Ari Moshe
Hi Ari
Quotethe doctors has prescribed him with "oppositional defiance disorder". Besides for making his parents and everyone else happy that they can now "know" what the "problem" is- they have prescribed him with valproic acid- 1 teaspoon twice daily. It's generally prescribed for ppl with severe depression, bi-polar, schizophrenia, or epilepsy.
I wanted to contribute with my thoughts, even though I am not an expert at all in these matters. I hope others who know more will add their thoughts.
Well, in my view I would say valproic acid is very toxic: almost a poison. This has been established even from the medical point of view. Among other things, it will affect the functioning of the boy's liver. There is a correlation between the liver and Jupiter, because of the role of the liver in general assimilation and metabolism. Causing this type of damage to the liver will potentially affect his capacity to interpret phenomena, his ability to see things clearly ("the liver flourishes in the eyes"), and his ability to process emotions and rage in general. His liver is quite strong, though it is also quite sensitive (the natal oppositions of Neptune and Uranus to his Jupiter). It will also affect his overall vitality (Sun). Valproic acid can also affect the pancreas. It would also affect his immune system, because it will increase the level of internal toxicity (the Jupiter/Neptune opposition).
If he is finally given this type of medication by the parents, or almost any other type of psychiatric medication, it would be very convenient for the boy to work with some plants serving to detoxify and protect the liver. It he is given valproic acid, I think this plant should be very specific, because the interactions of valproic acid with many other substances are very complicated.
It is a pity that most people believe this type of diagnosis such as ODD mean something. They are pure shit even from the point of view of logics. In reality they mean nothing, because they only imply an statistical description of misunderstood forms of behavior they want to control and repress, and have zero connection to any causal factor. You know this.
I look forward to see what others will say about your question.
God Bless,
Gonzalo