Hi. I want to apologize to all that were working on Ellen's chart because I accidentally deleted it from the board as I was editing my work.
Thanks for understanding and I apologize for the inconvenience.
God Bless
Deva
Hi Deva,
We do understand it was just a mistake. Luckily, I was able to "Go back one page" on my browser to retrieve the last page of Ellen's thread. Ellen has also been able to retrieve a significant number of older posts.
Hi Deva,
Thanks for the post. I was wondering where it went...
Linda,
Thanks for recapturing the last page. I think I have some of the posts saved as drafts in my email account, so I'll check and post what's there...
Peace,
Ellen
Here's my bio:
Bio: I'm 46yo, the 6th of 7 children. Raised in a primarily white, redlining suburb of Boston. Parents worked their way up from working class to middle class. All of my material needs were always met. Raised relatively conservative Catholic. Parents Consensus. Nothing talked about. Emotions repressed. I adored my family as a kid; we laughed a lot but mostly we were mean to one another (I only know this in hindsight). By high school I desperately wanted to get out. I ended up at a very liberal liberal arts college in far from home where my eyes opened to a much larger world and an entirely different set of values. I went through a period of tremendous loneliness and isolation, feeling totally abandoned by God. Eventually I realized I was gay. Throughout childhood I kept this hidden from myself. I lived my early life in great fear, though, terrified of being found out (even though I didn't really know what that was). I never dated boys/men and felt in a state of constant terror about this expectation and pressure. After I came out (I realized I was gay in my junior year of college), I pretty much raged through life, recognizing that all the people I thought loved me would have rejected me had they known I was gay. I became largely estranged from my family and hung out strictly with lesbians. I did NOT own my emotions and treated my body very poorly.
After college I suddenly realized I had to find a job. I'd really never had a clue about what I wanted to do for a living. As a kid I was invested in sports. In college I was invested in learning. It never occurred to me to think about a career. Primarily I sought out nonprofits, but quickly became disillusioned. For the past 17 years I worked as a nursing assistant and medical secretary. The work kept me there (I enjoyed tremendously "being of service" to people in need) but also the people I worked with and the university atmosphere. People talked about everything, and everything, in terms of emotions, was accepted. This was totally new to me. Recently, I left my job, primarily because it was no longer possible to do the kind of work that mattered to me due to the change in health care models that has been affecting the business for years now. Also, I have been sick for the past decade or so and the stress of the job was impeding my healing process.
Sometime in the 90's I saw an add for an astrology class. It was to start that night. I called and left a message, saying that I was coming. I showed up and began learning astrology. I've studied astrology off and on since, frequently abandoning it (selling all my books, etc.) out of my frustrations that it was shallow (personality-based astrology) and too "out there". Around 2000, a newly hired co-worker at work got me back into it. We would talk very openly about it at work, amidst all the MD's, kind of daring them to openly judge us. I was aware of JWG's work and had read through his Pluto I book, but unaware of any schools, abandoned it in frustration. I continued to go back and forth about astrology in general. But now, having gone through what I think is my last crisis about it, feel quite committed to it.
A little over a decade ago I became extremely sick. No diagnosis was every made, so I had to seek out alternative medical practitioners for help. Once again, I was faced with an entirely new world view, and my whole perspective slowly changed. During this time, I checked out a lot of the Buddhist centers around town, never committing to a center or to a practice. Also during this time I went back to my Catholic roots, feeling that there was something there I had to face and reconcile. Mostly, what I discovered is that I needed to learn that not all Catholics were narrow. Once I saw that, I seemed able to release it, though I can still be driven to rage thinking about the hubris of the Catholic hierarchy.
Some years back I came across Yogananda's book, Autobiography of a Yogi. I read through part of it and got rid of it, thinking he was nothing but egotistical and arrogant. That pretty much describes how I responded to any teacher of any kind. Hearing JWG talk about Yogananda a few months back, I reread his autobiography and fell in love. I feel now that I have made a genuine commitment to spiritual learning and practice. However, I continue to feel unclear about my life path and am uncertain that I will have the inner strength to resist the pressures to conform to expectations once I return to my home state and family. Currently, I am experiencing episodes of huge fear that seem to be about "claiming my power" in the face of conditioning that demands that I cede my power to whatever human authority wants to keep me under wraps. However, I seem to be aware of this in a way I have never been (I've lived my life in fear) and so feel that I am working with it more constructively.
I would just end by saying that I would say that I have lived most of my life in complete ignorance of my own emotional dynamics and definitely not owning any of it. As a kid I acted out my anger in harmful ways and I would say that this continued, in different form, through early adulthood. Since then my life has been largely about understanding these dynamics. I would also say that, until recently, I have lived my life in complete ignorance of the reality of the need to take care of myself and indeed resentful of this need. Outwardly, I did what I had to, but inwardly, the understanding really wasn't there.
This is from Ari with responses from me, all in same text (sorry about that)...
Hi Ellen, community
How about we post the chart now? Unless there is an interest in exploring the recent perspectives more.
One thing I observe Ellen is a general ambiguity when it comes to fitting yourself in ANYWHERE. I don't see that as being an issue with consensus reality itself, rather about trusting and knowing yourself on a more intimate level.
Your values do seems spiritual- going back to the first couple pages of this thread. You seem to have an actual desire to know Source, and to devote yourself to a way of life that will lead to that direct knowledge. I know my understanding of ea states is very limited- however I just can't understand such a desire as that manifesting in transition from second to third stage individuated. Am I wrong in saying that this is a desire of yours?
I feel there is a deep existential fear of loosing yourself, of getting sucked in to the unknown (note a month ago the fear of death you expressed). It seems to me that you are moving towards a path to the truth- to surrender, and service based on that surrender. Yet at the same time, reclaiming your individuality- knowing who to let in and not let in, being around a nurturing community of people is also really important for you. If you didn't express the self awareness that implied the desire to forgive, to understand- to devote yourself to a path, then I could easily interpret your stage to be second individuated going to third.
Hearing of your Jupiter in the 7th in Aries squaring the Cap Cancer nodes seems to provide a lot of clarity on this- and you spoke of repression, judgement from family. Hearing your own needs is clearly an important step for you in this life. If you are in transition to first stage spiritual- does that mean you would not have sought to live with exclusive groups of people with whom you felt safe and comfortable? Would you not have the desire to find a group of like minded people? I feel that is totally possible in any state... and especially if there are hiding signatures going on, as you have indicated, you won't necessarily be spending your time with the group of people who actually reflect your actual ea stage.
I don't have any PLANETS squaring my nodes- however I did grow up in a consensus environment. Around the time of my nodal return- I began to realize who I was (in contrast to everyone else at least), however I was far far far from knowing or understanding which people in this world are just like me (and I'm not saying I understand this now). So for a while I spent a lot of time in anarchist communities- second stage individuated folk- and third stage individuated communities doing cool environmental education things. I felt more "myself" around these people because there was less of a projection coming from them as to who I am or who I should be.
However I have come to realize that in the end, I desire something else entirely. I still feel connected to these communities- they are my family, yet I SEE that there is something very different between me and them. For me this is very much associated with hiding signatures in my own chart- both nodal rulers conj Neptune in my 4th. So I've been seeking home everywhere but within- and in a Neptunian way, finding myself literally ANYWHERE in all different kinds of "homes". But where is home really?
I share this because I feel that in some ways this is something you may be able to relate to, in your own way.
With Love,
Ari Moshe
I'm not 100% sure that this is from this thread, but here's a post/response btw me/Steve re: anger, which I think is relevant to this discussion....
Quote from: Steve on Jun 08, 2010, 02:35 PM
QuoteI was wanting to understand, specifically, what a "positive manifestation" of 2nd stage ind might look like to see if I resonated with that.
Ellen -
These tags, positive and negative, are very subjective and really come down to judgments, personal judgments based on one's values and sense of meaning and what is important.
We already know that 2nd stag indiv needs to rebel and withdraw from the mainstream. Therefore, any actions reflecting that are positive actions, no matter what they look like from the outside, unless they are intentionally planned to hurt or take advantage of another. Remember that natural law is giving, sharing, inclusion. Therefore anything that FROM WITHIN reflects those principles is positive. Acting for self-interest would be the definition of negative actions.
Thanks for this description of 2nd Ind. It's EXTREMELY helpful. Sorry that it's taking so long for these things to sink in. It seems I have to keep coming at it and then hear the responses from the new perspective I'm approaching from. I hope you will continue to be patient.... :)
Again, one may self-judge that anger is bad or negative. But what is the cause of that anger? If it is a rage against repeatedly witnessing and being affected by self-interest (i.e. negative), violations of natural law, is that anger appropriate or inappropriate? What are you supposed to do when you witness things that are inherently wrong - smile and feel love for all beings, peering below the illusion of negativity and separation? That is a bunch of new age foo foo. When things are so wrong that they make your blood boil, anger is an appropriate response The issue is not that anger appears, its what is an appropriate expression of that anger?
I agree with this statement, but only to a degree. Where I am coming from re: my framing anger as " negative" is from my experiences with anger. What I am understanding about that - what is becoming really clear to me of late - is that anger, ultimately, is harmful to me. It gets me nowhere, takes a toll on my body and does nothing in terms of helping others or whatever situation I am in. I understand that there are good reasons to be angry, but what I'm wanting to figure out is how can I respond wth light - how can I see the areas in me that resonate with what is wrong, ie, the dark places in me that are triggered by these things (because there ARE dark places in me), and bring light to those places (both in me and in the situation) and bring me also greater understanding of the situation and the people involved. I don't know if this makes sense, but actually, in writing it, I am beginning to understand more what you are saying... That anger in 2nd Ind is part of the developmental process of the Soul. Plain and simple. But in terms of my own stage, trying to figure that out, it seems to me that the fact that I am wanting and beginning to cultivate a different kind of relationship with my own intrnisic anger responses seems to be suggestive of a move away from 2nd ind. So, then, perhaps in thinking about these things in the future, rather than talking in terms like "avant garde" and "change agents", it might make more sense to talk in terms of anger and how one is relating to their anger in addition to the nature of their sense of alienation from society....
In a sense that is what 2nd stage indiv is angry about, all it witnesses that is wrong.
This statement is extremely helpful in helping me better understand what 2nd Ind is about...
One way to look at this is, a small child sees these things and just rages. As that child matures it realizes that raging, while it may be appropriate, is not really accomplishing much in terms of addressing the causes of, and possible solutions to, that which is producing the rage.
So in a sense the transition into 3rd stage indiv is sort of like emotionally growing up. Its not like the anger in 2nd stage indiv was wrong or negative. Just that one gradually realizes that just getting angry is not really helping - its not even serving the person who is getting angry, thus is not really a sustainable survival strategy.
Steve, I understand what you are saying about "negative" and I agree with you. I would just say that I don't believe it has been my intent to make a value judgement about people who are expressing anger/resonating to it. It is simply a realization on my part that anger is harmful to me. And I'm not talking here about suppressing anger because it's bad for me. I'm just saying that I'm understanding something new about it and wanting to relate to it differently and even try to work towards the spiritual ideal of truly loving my enemies. For me, I don't see any other way forward. And, at the same time, I recognize that I'm human and that I'm going to be expressing some anger as I go along, probably a lot at first...
People who are "changing the world" (3rd stage indiv) realize how difficult what they are attempting to do is. And they would often feel anger. But they have learned that succumbing to that anger does not serve them, and only feeds the case of those they are angry about. So they would CHANNEL that anger into something that, no matter how small a difference it may be, has some chance of making SOME difference, vs just getting mad. They are not perfect, and at times they WILL get angry, frustrated, depressed, whatever. This does not mean they are reverting back to 2nd stage indiv. It means they are a human being, and we are not perfect and consistent. They are evolving and learning and experimenting. And we learn from our mistakes and shortcomings.
That is why I am sensitive to your trying to characterize manifestations as "positive" or "negative", because a behavior can be both, or neither. It can be someone's best effort, the best they can do at this time, as imperfect as that may be. They may not do it very well (what you might call negative) yet they would learn something from that experience, which would lead them on to purify their efforts towards something more aligned with what you might call positive. It has to be that way. They have done the best they knew how to do, however inadequate they might later judge their earlier efforts. They were necessary to get them to where they are now.
Steve
Steve,
I think we agree...? The only thing more I would say is that another thing that I am really trying to learn right now is the difference between, for me, constructive ("positive")and destructive ("negative")responses to what is wrong. This is important because it totally determines who I hook up with and how. However, I don't think it would be correct to say that just because I am determining something to be "negative" (destructive) for me based on where I am right now and what I'm wanting to do, that I am condemning those who are orienting differently. I completely understand what you are saying about there being just and justified anger and developmentally appropriate anger and that that is completely different from unrighteous and unjust anger. Well, now I've just looked back at your first couple sentences about subjective labels... All I can say is, when I'm learning something, I don't think I know any other way to proceed but from the subjective....
This is a continuation of the exchange (Steve/me)...
Quote from: Steve on Jun 08, 2010, 02:35 PM
QuoteI was wanting to understand, specifically, what a "positive manifestation" of 2nd stage ind might look like to see if I resonated with that.
Ellen -
These tags, positive and negative, are very subjective and really come down to judgments, personal judgments based on one's values and sense of meaning and what is important.
We already know that 2nd stag indiv needs to rebel and withdraw from the mainstream. Therefore, any actions reflecting that are positive actions, no matter what they look like from the outside, unless they are intentionally planned to hurt or take advantage of another. Remember that natural law is giving, sharing, inclusion. Therefore anything that FROM WITHIN reflects those principles is positive. Acting for self-interest would be the definition of negative actions.
Thanks for this description of 2nd Ind. It's EXTREMELY helpful. Sorry that it's taking so long for these things to sink in. It seems I have to keep coming at it and then hear the responses from the new perspective I'm approaching from. I hope you will continue to be patient.... :)
Again, one may self-judge that anger is bad or negative. But what is the cause of that anger? If it is a rage against repeatedly witnessing and being affected by self-interest (i.e. negative), violations of natural law, is that anger appropriate or inappropriate? What are you supposed to do when you witness things that are inherently wrong - smile and feel love for all beings, peering below the illusion of negativity and separation? That is a bunch of new age foo foo. When things are so wrong that they make your blood boil, anger is an appropriate response The issue is not that anger appears, its what is an appropriate expression of that anger?
I agree with this statement, but only to a degree. Where I am coming from re: my framing anger as " negative" is from my experiences with anger. What I am understanding about that - what is becoming really clear to me of late - is that anger, ultimately, is harmful to me. It gets me nowhere, takes a toll on my body and does nothing in terms of helping others or whatever situation I am in. I understand that there are good reasons to be angry, but what I'm wanting to figure out is how can I respond wth light - how can I see the areas in me that resonate with what is wrong, ie, the dark places in me that are triggered by these things (because there ARE dark places in me), and bring light to those places (both in me and in the situation) and bring me also greater understanding of the situation and the people involved. I don't know if this makes sense, but actually, in writing it, I am beginning to understand more what you are saying... That anger in 2nd Ind is part of the developmental process of the Soul. Plain and simple. But in terms of my own stage, trying to figure that out, it seems to me that the fact that I am wanting and beginning to cultivate a different kind of relationship with my own intrnisic anger responses seems to be suggestive of a move away from 2nd ind. So, then, perhaps in thinking about these things in the future, rather than talking in terms like "avant garde" and "change agents", it might make more sense to talk in terms of anger and how one is relating to their anger in addition to the nature of their sense of alienation from society....
In a sense that is what 2nd stage indiv is angry about, all it witnesses that is wrong.
This statement is extremely helpful in helping me better understand what 2nd Ind is about...
One way to look at this is, a small child sees these things and just rages. As that child matures it realizes that raging, while it may be appropriate, is not really accomplishing much in terms of addressing the causes of, and possible solutions to, that which is producing the rage.
So in a sense the transition into 3rd stage indiv is sort of like emotionally growing up. Its not like the anger in 2nd stage indiv was wrong or negative. Just that one gradually realizes that just getting angry is not really helping - its not even serving the person who is getting angry, thus is not really a sustainable survival strategy.
Steve, I understand what you are saying about "negative" and I agree with you. I would just say that I don't believe it has been my intent to make a value judgement about people who are expressing anger/resonating to it. It is simply a realization on my part that anger is harmful to me. And I'm not talking here about suppressing anger because it's bad for me. I'm just saying that I'm understanding something new about it and wanting to relate to it differently and even try to work towards the spiritual ideal of truly loving your enemies. For me, I don't see any other way forward. And, at the same time, I recognize that I'm human and that I'm going to be expressing some anger as I go along, probably a lot at first...
People who are "changing the world" (3rd stage indiv) realize how difficult what they are attempting to do is. And they would often feel anger. But they have learned that succumbing to that anger does not serve them, and only feeds the case of those they are angry about. So they would CHANNEL that anger into something that, no matter how small a difference it may be, has some chance of making SOME difference, vs just getting mad. They are not perfect, and at times they WILL get angry, frustrated, depressed, whatever. This does not mean they are reverting back to 2nd stage indiv. It means they are a human being, and we are not perfect and consistent. They are evolving and learning and experimenting. And we learn from our mistakes and shortcomings.
That is why I am sensitive to your trying to characterize manifestations as "positive" or "negative", because a behavior can be both, or neither. It can be someone's best effort, the best they can do at this time, as imperfect as that may be. They may not do it very well (what you might call negative) yet they would learn something from that experience, which would lead them on to purify their efforts towards something more aligned with what you might call positive. It has to be that way. They have done the best they knew how to do, however inadequate they might later judge their earlier efforts. They were necessary to get them to where they are now.
Steve
Again, a continuation... (I haven't reread these thoroughly so it's possible they're out of order)
Quote from: Steve on Jun 07, 2010, 08:57 PM
Hi
The idea that 2nd stage indiv is avant garde and 3rd stage indiv has evolved beyond a need to be avant garde and is now more serious in doing its work is too limited.
Off the top of my head, 2nd stage indiv can include outlaw motorcycle gangs, not especially avant garde. While Bob Dylan is 3rd stage indiv. Most would consider him, especially when young, as quite avant garde.
Again, one has to be careful to not take one possible FORM that an evolutionary stage can manifest in and apply that form as a generalization to an entire stage, then assessing whether someone is in that stage based on whether they seem to fit the single form one is calling representative of that stage.
2nd stage indiv is about complete alienation from consensus. There are many ways that can manifest. Some are not going to look at all avant garde.
While many in 3rd stage indiv will look and act quite outside the mainstream's idea of proper dress, appearance, lifestyle.
You can not determine evolutionary stage by looking at externals.
I agree with Adina. Most people in 3rd stage indiv are not well known or necessarily driven with their intended direction of work in the world. They are simply people who see new improved better ways to do things. As Jeffrey said, the welder who finds a new way to weld, the banker who finds new innovations in banking. Or the poet who finds new ways to reach and inspire others. Or the teacher who helps kids see that its about more than just memorizing information, teaches them how to think. They can be operating on a very small scale local level, or operating in ways that affect large numbers of people - the nature of the work and its scale is related to that Soul's present-life purpose. The Soul will have desires to help advance things.
Steve
Hi Steve,
Thanks so much for your post. I appreciate your reminding me and others that it's about the inner essence, not the externals. I didn't reread my post just now, but I did want to clarify that my intention in that post wasn't to try to say 2nd stage is this one thing and 3rd is this other one thing. What I was trying to do was understand possible positive manifestations that I could relate to to try to help me get a handle on if either made sense to me and how. My reference point was myself and from there I was looking out to try to grasp what positive manifestations might look like. Since I'm feeling done with negativity - really, truly wanting to completely reorient myself internally - I was wanting to understand, specifically, what a "positive manifestation" of 2nd stage ind might look like to see if I resonated with that. The crux of what I'm trying to understand is what a positive manifestation of "complete alienation from society" might look like, in whatever form. Is that something you could try to articulate? Avant garde was the one form I was sure of. I hope this makes sense. As with most of my posts, my post here was meant as a way of throwing something out there to get a conversation started and from that learn more.
Peace,
Ellen
A post from Upasika and my response:
Quote from: Upasika on Jun 06, 2010, 05:02 PM
Hi Ellen and all,
Seems we have all ruled out 1st spiritual, and are focussing on early 3rd individuated.
For myself, I do not have an absolute certainty yet. I feel Linda has explored Ellen's spiritual world very thoroughly and that has been very revealing. And I accept early 3rd indiv as a definite possibility. My knowledge of the EA stages is not huge though, so I'm very much learning here as we go.
The skipped step may be a complicating factor in the mix. However I still feel that Ellen has traces of 2nd indiv somehow. For instance her comment "I think because I was raised by Consensus parents and surrounded by Consensus growing up, I have a very difficult time understanding how I'm different from it. I'm not sure if that makes any logical sense, but it seems to be true for me." My feeling is that by the time of 3rd individ proper there is not this degree of difficulty in knowing how one is different to consensus.
There still seems to be a flavour of defining yourself Ellen based on what you are not, which is perhaps more a 2nd individ thing rather than a 3rd indiv thing. And I would imagine that the underlying defiance and anger of 2nd indiv would be down to embers by the very end of 2nd indiv, which could correlate to your life experience. And you yourself also clearly relate to 2nd indiv just as you do to early 3rd indiv.
Adina pointed out that there can be a fair bit of flip-flopping when at the beginning or end of a substage or on the cusp of stages or substages, and I do get a definite feeling about that with you Ellen - flip flopping, and the uncertainty that would naturally accompany that.
If it's true, as you suggest, that your being gay and getting sick, were "devices", life situations, that you used to help you individuate once and for all from the patriarchy and consenus, in essence this is a 2nd individated kind of response to life challenges. And even though as Linda feels, you are pulling away from all this now, it is in fact what your life has largely been about, and I don't feel inclined to try and see too many layers of meaning in it, rather just take it as is stands.
I'm not definite about Ellen's stage, I think she could be from very late 2nd indiv through to very early 3rd indiv, but I'm going to say she is transitioning into 3rd individ, i.e on the cusp of 2nd individ to 3rd individ. I'm open to that not being right, it's just how I feel at the moment. I can also follow the reasons for Ellen being 3rd indiv too, and don't really have absolute reasons why that also couldn't be so.
However, I don't think it matters too much if others think she's 3rd indiv itself, we're all narrowed down to the same area, so for purposes of looking at the chart I'm ready for that when everyone else is.
Upasika
Hi Upasika,
You bring up some really good points. The gyst, for me, at this time, is really in understanding just what that cusp is about. The flip-flopping makes a ton of sense. I hope others with more knowledge and experience will offer their insights. For me, in terms of pinning it down, it would be extrememly helpful to understand the POSITIVE manifestations of end of 2nd stage ind vs the positive manifestations of early 3rd ind. This would help me in determining which feels right to me in terms of the changes that are occurring in me.
2nd ind, as I understand it, can be the avant gard of society, and this of course, can be negative or positive. 3rd ind isn't going to be avant gard (trendy), but they are going to be the social change agents in a different sense - they're going to get down to the business of getting the work done that they are here to do and that has the effect of changing society. That's different. 2nd Ind is going to be making a statement. 3rd ind is simply going to be contributing in ways that move society along. If I have this nuance right, then I would say that 2nd ind doesn't feel right to me and really hasn't - I've sort of ended up there but it never really worked. Yet at the same time, I haven't had the sense of direction and self-worth that 3rd ind has. Thus that would peg me as cusp transitioning to 3rd. But you also make the good point about the unclear sense of identity I have as separate from the consensus. That to me is quite significant. Like you, I don't know enough at this time. However, I am wondering if both hiding signatures and skipped steps, along with significant repression signatures and strong water house representation, could account for these things.
Some thoughts,
Ellen
Linda asked me to answer some questions. Unfortunately I only have the response to the last one:
Hi Linda,
I missed a question.
Question:
15. Describe any states of cosmic consciousness that you've experienced, eg 3rd eye, oneness.
I don't think I've had any 3rd eye experiences, except, possibly, the flashes of blue out of the corner of my eyes. In terms of cosmic consciousness, I can only say that I have had a few experiences where I have felt at one with everything around me in the sense of at complete inner peace with all and that these experiences have occurred spontaneously.
Peace,
Ellen
Correction, I seem to have saved the answers to all of Linda's questions:
"Hi Linda,
Thanks for your questions. I think these are quite challenging, which, in and of itself, I'd say is an indicator of my stage. My answers are in quotes. Sorry not to make them stand out more with color or bold, but I'm doing this from my email and I have found that color and bold choices don't carry over..."
Hi Ellen,
I'd like to now further explore the emotional/spiritual aspect by asking you a few more questions:
1. Have you had experiences of the wave within the ocean, and the ocean within the wave? If so, do you have these experiences always, sometimes, rarely or never.
"Recently I have begun to understand that I am the wave through which the water works through. However, I suspect that this has not been a very deep experience. It is definitely a shift in understanding - recognizing that God is the doer, and that my role is to be inservice to God. The whole realization I have been having about the need to truly develop a talent is a result of this shift in understanding. I think Heather (who posted after you) and Upasika have insightfully recognized the individuated-evolutionary-stage nature of this realization/ unfolding orientation."
2. Do you have a strong awareness of your eternal Soul identity?
"No, I do not.
How would you describe your Soul identity?
"No idea."
Do any of these Soul types attract you or resonate with you: body (hatha yoga), sexuality (daemon/tantra), warrior (leadership), devotional (Cancer), prayerful/chanting (karma yoga), wisdom (teacher-type), avatar (guru)?
"I think devotional more than any of the others. But to some degree all but body (hatha yoga) and avatar (guru). To me, this answer suggests the still searching nature of my spiritual journey and the unrealized, in terms of spiritual evolutionary stage, of my Soul identity."
3. Do you feel that you've been extraordinarily traumatized, tortured, or alienated in past lives?
"I have been told that I have and this revelation makes a lot of sense to me in terms of unexplained marks on my body and unexplained fears and anxieties. Also, I relate tremendously to experiences of abuse/torture. I have a friend who in this lifetime who was abused and tortured and at one point - this was many years ago - she commented, quite emphatically, that I was the only one who got what she was saying. A history of past-life abuse makes sense of this. However, there are HUGE repression signatures in my chart, so it's also quite possible that there has been abuse in this lifetime that I have suppressed."
4. Since beginning this Evolutionary Stage thread, can you describe some of your dreams? Has there been a repeating theme, eg being chased, traveling, feeling good, feeling embarrassed, guilty, or other? Please state anything at all that you can remember.
"I have not been keeping track of my dreams, although I did have one last night, the details of which I have forgotten, with my mother (who is deceased) in it. I did not wake up with a a ball of anxiety in my stomach, as I do most mornings. Keeping track of my dreams is a practice I am constantly wanting to incorporate into my daily practice as I have found it extremely helpful in the past when I have done this. For whatever reasons, I continue to not make a practice of it..."
5. Do you strongly identify with your subjective ego in this lifetime, or do you identify more with your eternal self?
"This is shifting. I would say that I have identified with my subjective ego quite tenaciously, and that that has been the cause of most of my difficulties, ie, part of the lesson I have been having to learn in this lifetime. I do feel that this identification is beginning to shift, especially as of late."
6. Are you aware that your Soul has created a subjective ego for its ongoing evolutionary reasons?
"Yes, since I first read JWG's book a few years ago. But I would say that that level of understanding has been pretty superficial and is only now starting to deepen."
Do you clearly understand what these evolutionary reasons or issues are in this current life?
"I am gaining clarity. My feeling is that I am having to learn 1) to care for myself (to stand on my own 2 feet) - which means in part clearly understanding who I am as distinct from others; 2) to learn the lesson and art of receiving from others; 3) to learn to work in service to God rather than in service to myself or my extended idea of myself (ie, my extended family/community that I identify as "mine"; 4) to learn (genuine) humility. I think these are the main ones. One more thing... I also feel that in past lives as a man, I accepted the conventional ideas and practices of male superiority and entitlement. And I think a HUGE part of my learning in this life is the very experientially based learning that that idea and the practice of oppression that comes from it is completely wrong. I have spent a lot of this life berating myself for this and feeling that I had no right to "succeed". What I am beginning to feel is that I made a mistake in the past. And now that I understand it, I can do differently."
7. Do you have a good understanding of natural laws, or how these laws have been violated by humankind in the patriarchy?
"Hmm. Not sure how to answer this one. I seem to have a sense of "right" and "wrong" and, while my family was far from perfect, I would say that a lot of this sense comes from them."
8. Do you understand the difference between natural or learned (man-made) guilt?
"This I think I am totally starting to get. The trick is understanding the seed of the guilt so that you can make the correct determination."
9. Are you able to consciously align your will with a Higher Will? If so, does this happen often and easily, with difficulty, or never?
"This is precisely what I am beginning to understand and wanting to develop at this time, yet at the same time resisting..."
10. When you look up at the stars at night, do you feel a sense of awe, humility, or fear?
"Awe!"
Does this experience make you feel really "small" and insignificant, or do you feel consciously united with the universe?
"I would say that it does not make me feel small or insignificant. But I am not sure that it makes me feel consciously united with the universe, either. Viscerally, maybe yes, it does. But intellectually, I'm not sure. This is an important distinction, because I'm not sure my intellect will let me feel the full extent of the visceral connection."
11. Are you deeply naturally humble?
"I would say that I am not, but that I would like to be and greatly admire those who are."
12. You spoke of the desire to be of service to the larger whole by helping others. Are you ready to make this commitment now, regardless of what service that may be? Have you always lived your life like this? Or is this a fairly new desire?
"This is an interesting question. For me, looking back on my life, what has always mattered to me was contributing to the effort and that the effort was geared toward a meaningful outcome. In high school and college, that meant contributing as a member of a sports team, and the outcome was a unified group effort and a sense of comraderie. After college, it meant contributing as a member of a work community and the outcome was the same. But in all cases, the end result was exploitation due to major changes in circumstances - in high school the coaching staff changed; at work the ownership changed. The key is that I was always referring to other human beings for my sense of worth. Through the repeated experiences of exploitation, I have begun to understand that I have been looking to the wrong sources for my sense of worth and meaning. These experiences seem to be turning into an awareness of the need to identify my talents and develop them - at least pick one or 2 and develop those. This is hard to explain, but it is as though by focusing on those talents and developing them, I am focusing on my relationship to God. I am trying, at this time, to not focus on the outcome, but to simply allow this process to follow its course. I also want to be sure, in terms of "helping others" that if this is what proceeds, that it is a genuine outgrowth of this direction and not a compulsion with regard to the conditioning of girls and women to "help". To me, this is a tricky line."
13. Have you experienced the Source through healing/helping work?
"Yes. I believe I have. And it is what I love about doing that kind of work. It feels absolutely right."
14. Are you aware of the need for purification within yourself?
"Yes. Definitely."
Are you highly critical of your imperfections?
"In the past I have been brutally critical of my imperfections. But I have been learning the futility of this approach and very actively retraining myself towards compassion towards myself (and others!)."
15. Describe any states of cosmic consciousness that you've experienced, eg 3rd eye, oneness.
Hope I'm not wearing you out!
"No problem. I truly appreciate them, and all the effort you are going through to think of them and pose them to me. They are quite a challenge, though! But they are very helpful for me in terms of processing through all of this, so thank you. My own feeling with regard to my stage is leaning pretty heavily towards 2nd Individuated. What Upasika wrote made a ton of sense to me. And Heather's comments also made sense. The question for me is exactly where in 2nd Ind (ie, beginning, middle or end, or transitioning from beginning to middle or middle to end. I don't think I'm 3rd Ind or Spiritual. I think my answers to the spiritual questions show a lack of depth to them, thus indicating a lack of genuine experience.)
Many thanks,
Linda
The 1st set of questions from Linda (and my responses). PS: sorry, I seem to be posting all of these in reverse order.
Questions for Ellen - from Linda
1. What is your relationship to "life?"
"I'm not sure how to answer this one..."
2. Do you feel a sense of devotion to the universal spirit all of the time?
"Not all the time, but definitely a desire to feel it all the time. A thought came to me recently, out of the blue, when I was trying to figure out what I was going to do with my life. The thought was: "I want my life to be a prayer". Well, I'm definitely not there. But I think it is a good goal."
3. Do you feel that compassion is the most valuable spiritual quality?
"I think that compassion is extremely important. And ultimately, I do think the "goal" of spiritual development is to be of benefit to others - to realize one's relationship to God and then from there to benefit others. But I'd say that discrimination, devotion, humility and dedication are also pretty important. Probably some other qualities I'm not thinking of at the moment."
4. What other spiritual masters have you been attracted to?
"Well, this is all kind of new to me. But recently, I've felt attracted to St. John of the Cross and also some of the Hindu pantheon - Lord Vishnu especially. Also, Lord Shiva. I have felt very attracted to the Kriya Yoga lineage. When I was exploring Buddhism, I felt attracted to Milarepa, and probably the Kagyu tradition more than others, but also the Dalai Lama. And then I also feel great affection and appreciation of Thich Nhat Hanh. In the Catholic tradition, in addition to St. John of the Cross, I feel a kindredness to St. Francis of Assissi (but for the life of me I can't for a second imagine that St. Francis cares much about me....). One of the things I am struggling with right now is the reality that my heart has been so closed down for so long and this is something that I am actively working to correct and feel is a primary part of my spiritual development at this time. One of the many reasons I feel attracted to Yogananda is that I simply feel LOVE pouring forth from him. I have a photocopy of a picture of him hanging on my wall and for weeks before receiving the SRF instructions, my meditation would be to simply sit in front of his picture, allowing myself to feel the love that he is exuding.
I actually have a story and was wanting to know if these kinds of things are indicative of stage. The story is that a month or 2 ago, when I was feeling really down and out, just absolutely trudging through my days, I suddenly felt Yogananda carrying me. Of course, I was still walking on my own, but there was the sense of being carried. It was all I could do not to shut that feeling off, to dismiss it as a figment of my imagination. I let myself accept that it was happening. And it just really helped me a lot at that particular moment - let me know I wasn't alone when I was really needing to know that. It was really a precious moment for me. But can these types of experiences occur to anyone no matter what stage they're in? "
5. What is the most important: (a) developing your talents; (b) being someone special; (c) spirituality?
"Well, I would say that what I am understanding at this time is that developing my talents is a key part of my spiritual development at this time. What I am realizing is that, in order to be of any use to God, I need to develop the gifts I've been given. There is also the realization arising in me that my NOT developing my gifts in the past (of this life) has been the result of self-loathing."
6. Does your sense of alienation and frustration relate to the patriarchy?
"It definitely relates to the business and relationship and community structures/norms that are prevalent today. So that probably means it's related to the patriarchy."
7. In a typical day, what are your main activities: (a) helping others, (b) meditation, (c) study, (d) other?
"a, b & c, ideally. Currently, my life is a little topsy turvy/in limbo. I am curious to see how I organize my life in my new environment."
8. Do you have a daily routine in your spiritual practice?
"Yes, I have recently begun following the SRF lessons, though I do not meditate for as long as they recommend. I feel that, for me, it is important that I allow myself to slowly build up to it - to not force myself to live up to a standard, but to allow my practice to naturally evolve. I would add that in the past I have found that if I started out meditating for too long initially, I would abandon the practice. So I feel it is best to go with what my limits seem to be and then take it from there."
9. What does spirituality mean to you?
"Knowing God, the practices that foster this, and, I think also, the service that arises from this."
10. What is most important to you: (a) creative expression; (b) helping others; (c) teaching others.
"b) helping others"
11. What do you think is your evolutionary condition? What do you lean toward?
"Well, depends on the moment. Answering the questions I've answered today makes me wonder if I'm not actually spiritual (but I'm open to other alternatives). The question that is arising for me through all of this is, how much do you factor in the past vs what is actually happening for the person in the present?"
Thanks for your questions. Hope my answers help.
Peace,
Ellen
From Steve - providing some clarity re: some of the evolutionary stages.
The 3rd stage individuated person who is "leading the world into better ways" - if they have a need to be attached to the results of what they are doing, as if they created it on their own, from their own personality strength and determination - seeking the recognition and respect and appreciation for what they are doing - the need to "feel special" by being recognized for their hard work and achievements.
vs. 3rd stage consensus - they are one of the chosen - they are special and above all others. The Divine Right of Kings, in the old days. The specialness manifests in completely different ways than 3rd stage indiv, with different expectations.
3rd stage consensus more or less expects to be worshiped - 3rd stage indiv would not expect to be understood - would even pride itself on being different. The key word there being "pride", which is a form of feeling special.
2nd stage spiritual - specialness there is so obvious it needs no explanation.
But even in 1st stage spiritual. As Adina explained, one way it can show up there is as a ghost memory/imprint from the 3rd stage individuated. Another could be the masochistic type of personality who has tried to do the right thing for so long and has simply been misunderstood, stomped on, watched glory hogs get all the credit (that this person never sought) for doing even less than what they have done, etc etc. At certain points they can simply desire to be seen, noticed, recognized, acknowledged for all the effort they have put in. (This actually could be an example of compensation.) Those are just the first two possible causes of specialness in 1st stage spiritual that popped into my head. Undoubtedly there are twenty others.
We must learn to listen more deeply, starting within our own self. As we learn to hear with new ears what is going on within Self, we will be able to peer more deeply into what is going on within others.
Steve
Adina's post with my reply:
Adina's quote:
Last for tonight (oh, gosh, there's just SOOO much more than this, but"¦.. - You said: "Hearing JWG talk about Yogananda a few months back, I reread his autobiography and fell in love. I feel now that I have made a genuine commitment to spiritual learning and practice. However, I continue to feel unclear about my life path and am uncertain that I will have the inner strength to resist the pressures to conform to expectations once I return to my home state and family. Currently, I am experiencing episodes of huge fear that seem to be about "claiming my power" in the face of conditioning that demands that I cede my power to whatever human authority wants to keep me under wraps. However, I seem to be aware of this in a way I have never been (I've lived my life in fear) and so feel that I am working with it more constructively." We'd really have to go back to your chart to look at some of that "fear" about "claiming your power," in the face of "conditioning"¦"¦" It's good you are aware of this now, Ellen, but dollars to donuts you've experienced some pretty traumatic prior life events that are now generating that fear. In your case, it's definitely tied to your Jupiter in Aries in 12 square your nodal axis"¦.. but that alone, as you know, doesn't INDICATE your evolutionary stage, it simply backs it up and expands on it, shows you how to move forward, once your evolutionary stage is determined.
My reply:
Hi Adina,
Yes. I have been told by an EA astrologer that there is trauma in my past life history. And with regard to this I will just say that it is interesting to me, knowing this information, that I was born in Salem, MA. I am not saying that I was told I'd been persecuted there, but I mention this simply to say that I really resonated to the aura of persecution that was there. (I didn't grow up in Salem, but a town over.) Until, recently, I have always felt instinctual fear of the police, certain they were going to arrest/harm me when our paths crossed. Just an example. Also, however, I was raised in an authoritarian-type structure.
One correction: My Jupiter in Aries is square the nodes, but from the 7th house, not the 12th.
I will also say that over the last few days, as I've allowed myself to really tune into the fear, I am noticing that it seems to be very much related to my efforts to establish a spiritual practice. I have also noticed, over the years, that I experience trememdous fear in response to my desires to be kind to people - that somehow I will be harmed as a result. This has been really quite inhibiting.
All for now,
Ellen
More of Adina's comments/ my response:
Adina's quote:
Another thought you expressed that led me to the early 3rd stage individuated with remnants of 2nd stage is: "I would say that I have NOT felt that I have any power to change things. And I would say that is because I have been egocentrically oriented and that just isn't going to work for me in this life." First, I think this is a good, honest observation of yourself, Ellen, and second, the language itself (especially when linked with all your other thoughts, etc.) indicates (to me) individuated rather than spiritual.
My reply:
Yes, this has been a conundrum for me in terms of trying to fit me into spiritual. I do feel that people in my life have seen me to be bigger than I feel myself to be, see me as having more potential, etc, than I feel myself to have. But I have felt baffled by this. I have felt stymied in terms of understanding 1) what exactly my talents are and 2) how those fit into the world. Mostly, I just want to be of service - to do good in some way - and I'm not really invested in the status or how. I felt that the job I had as an NA/med. sec. was really perfect while it lasted, ie, before the industry changed to profit bottom line above all else. But at the same time, due to my own health experiences, the truth is I was becoming disillusioned by the western medical model (actually, I was quite angry early on but have since become simply reflective). Right now what I'm feeling is that my whole orientatin has been wrong - that my focus has been on pleasing others in some way, rather than understanding my connection to God and "who I am" and "what my purpose is" within that context.
I have slowly begun meditating. I mentioned in my response to Stephen that over the years I had meditated off & on (mostly off). I thought explaining the "mostly off" might also help in terms of assessing stage. I began looking into meditation after I became ill. There are a lot of Buddhist centers in the area and they are the most visible (also, I was most familiar with Buddhism from my studies in college), so that is where I began my search, in addition to the Catholic Church some years into my illness. I was interested in meditation, but my physical fatigue often prevented me from pursuing it. For a number of years, when I wasn't doing what I needed to do to survive (go to work to get my paycheck, go to the grocery store to get my food, make my food and eat it), I was lying down. I didn't have a car, and also I had a dog who needed my attention and care, so I ended up relying on my bike to get me around (buses would have taken too long in terms of my dog's needs, and I was a good athlete, so I could manage, despite the exhaustion). However, whatever little bit of gain I made in healing was quickly depleted by the energy expended in biking. Sleep and rest became even more essential. And I simply didn't have the energy to hold myself up for "nonessentials". Also, part of the illness manifested as tremendous brain slog. Buddhist meditation techniques (the ones I encountered) do not focus on the 3rd eye, only on the breath. What I found (and I can explain this only in hindsight), was that, when I was able to meditate, the only thing that I was doing was getting caught up in the negative habit patterns of my brain. My inner sense told me that this was not a good thing for me. (Alzheimers runs majorly in my family and I really felt all that I was doing was ensuring the future onset of the disease.) Eventually, I came across the Tibetan "Loving Kindness Meditation" as taught by Sharon Salzburg (sp?). I was EXTREMELY happy to find this meditation and this teaching. I practiced, lying down (as that was all I could muster), for a year or 2 (I think). But (and again, I understand this only in hindsight), there was something missing from this technique - something I seemed to intuit that I needed but couldn't put my finger on. Once I reread Yogananda's autobiography, I slowly began to understand that what was missing was the explicit understanding of God. It is interesting to me to reflect that I gravitated to the Tibetan Buddhist traditions, those that are more devotional in nature, but that it just wasn't quite right. Also, upon reflection, I can see why I revisited the Catholic Church, as there is the explicit worship of God and at the same time a deep tradition of mysticism. What I am discovering is that everything that I seem to be wanting - that I resonate to - can be found in Yogananda's teachings and lineage. I really feel a strong desire to know God. Yet at the same time, I am aware of my mind still looking towards the world of distractions. Also, I am aware of the reality that I will need to find work at some point. I am praying, as best as I am able (which is not so great), to proceed from an awareness of God - to trust that the Source will guide me if I allow it. But my trust, frankly, is shaky, so there's some work to be done there - some habits to be broken. I also don't know how I'll respond surrounded by people whose lives are not fundamentally oriented towards God and spiritual practice. That is an unknown for me. Finally, given that my health is still not outstanding, though a million times better than it was 10 years ago, I am uncertain if I will be able to hold down a job and still have energy for spiritual practice. Combine this with the potential pulls I will have away from such practice, all is unknown to me at this time. So, for me, I am thinking that even these doubts are potentially indicative of my stage. And for sure, I am thinking, that if I am easily swayed, that would say something. However, I do feel certain that if I am initially swayed, my health will seriously deteriorate and I will be forced to reorient....
So, some thoughts about all this.
Peace,
Ellen
Good work Ellen! It doesn't really matter if the posts are out of order. It looks like you've recaptured most of them. I'll re-post your chart and my latest post for ease of reference soon.
I think this is Linda with my responses:
Ellen's quotes:
...........The whole process of me choosing and going to college was very much influenced by a friend of mine.
...........I had NO CLUE and she'd invite me along to the colleges........
...........I would never have thought that.
...........I am beginning to understand this differently now, thanks to yours and others comments.
...........my actions gave me the space I needed to individuate further.
...........I was not CONSCIOUS of that though. I was just desperate to get out.
...........in hindsight I would put the emphasis on needing to find myself....
Ellen,
Thank you for your great feedback.
What I see emerging is that this life for you is marked by a progression or process of individuation.....stepping away from the consensus.....moving into academia......rejecting the usual types of work.....and perhaps the sickness of your body forcing you to slow down and make a commitment to spiritual work (for your body's healing, in order to be able to eventually help others).
"Yes, I see this also. It also explains the lack of teachers , ie, needing to do individuation work. What has confused me is the UNCONSCIOUS nature of the whole thing. I had been thinking that since it WAS so unconscious, that had to be a sure sign pointing to consensus/early individuated. Also, the anger was confusing for me - another sure sign of individuated I thought. But, in thinking about Ari's comments, both of these things can be explained in terms of the dynamics in my chart. The discussion about Ashley also really led me to question where I was at, given that I also have tended towards anger and negativity and had a difficult time holding down jobs at first for somewhat similar reasons, although perhaps tending more towards ideological reasons and "authority" reasons."
Although it seemed that circumstances conspired, or you followed others, or you "had no idea" - in fact, your own soul has taken you through this journey, albeit mainly unconsciously.
"Yes. Last night I remembered that when I was in high school a friend of mine told me that I just had to go see "Brother Sun, Sister Moon" - that I would just love it. It wasn't that she was being emphatic about the film. She was saying that somehow I would relate to it - that it was so ME. I really didn't get the connection at the time and I think felt a little frightened by it - by being identified as such. Anyway, I'm not sure I'd get rid of all my possessions and walk naked down the street...:) But seriously, I don't think I'm that far along or that brave. But apparently there was something there, even then, when I was totally clueless, that others picked up on.
As a group, we are able to view your life objectively, and assess your spiritual condition. Knowing for sure that you are in the 1st stage spiritual will at least slow down the searching and allow you to devote yourself to some spiritual work.
"I would agree. It gives me a different perspective on myself, my focus, my life circumstances and my direction. I can't thank you all enough."
A soul may start out in a consensus family (eg Catholic) but where that soul ends up usually is a good indication of their evolutionary condition.
"This is one of the things that continues to confuse me re: younger people who have not yet realized who they are, ie, how you make that assessment. Apparently, there is a quality to each of the stages and it is somehow possible to experience that. I feel that I keep trying to figure out PERSONALITY. But it has become clear through this discussion and the discussion of Ashley that one has to peer beneath the personality to the SOUL. (Still not sure how to do that...) Also, Steve keeps talking about it not being LINEAR. This I think I am starting to get."
You are now expressing the 1st stage spiritual. Exhausting the desires of the 1st stage spiritual will take some time, but eventually move you forward to the next stage. Like many of us, learning and practising EA is part of our spiritualizing process.
"Yes. EA has been EXTREMELY important in terms of awakening my desire for spiritual understanding and practice. I relate to what Stephen has said a couple of times: to study EA is to be a client of EA at the same time."
Do you think you really are 1st stage spiritual? Any doubts?
"Thanks to this process and everyone's feedback and input, I am feeling surprisingly clear about my stage. The only outstanding doubt for me revolves around the sense of directionlessness with regard to career. But I suspect that this can be answered along the lines of the other questions I had - that somehow it is a process of unfolding.
"Also, I think, feeling more certain about my own EA state will help me in assessing the states of others more clearly, as I will perhaps be less prone to project...
Peace for now,
Ellen
This is Upasika/my responses:
Quote from: Upasika on Jun 01, 2010, 12:41 AM
Hi Ellen,
Quote from: Ellen on May 30, 2010, 11:31 AM
... I'm starting to wonder what exactly my real gifts are and how I can bring those in a constructive way to the world.
You may have answered this somewhere else, but I'm just wondering what you would say your real gifts were, and how they are manifesting for you at the moment?
blessings, Upasika
Hi Upasika,
No, I haven't answered this elsewhere. And it's a challenging question for me at this time; I am only just beginning to think about it and it really goes against my training/conditioning to look at this - to actually recognize my gifts/talents.
I would say that I have potential in the areas of astrology/psychology/counselling. In terms of manifesting, I am currently studying EA. I do not envision myself returning to school so I am thinking that psychology/counselling as a profession will not manifest, but I have not completely ruled it out. I have taken a class in the past and received positive reinforcement. I also did some volunteer facilitating for a very brief time and received positive reviews.
I also have potential in terms of writing, though I wouldn't want this to be my primary activity. In terms of manifesting, I've explored/pursued poetry and nonfiction writing, but simply don't enjoy the lifestyle and, ultimately, I'd rather expend my energies writing about a subject - ie, using writing more as a teaching tool than a self-expression tool. So, if it comes into play at all it will be as an extension of something else that I'm doing, rather than as primary.
There is my athletic abilitiy. In this regard, I'm not sure how completely my health will come around. I coached very briefly in the past and really did not enjoy it and was really not any good at it. However, it is possible that I was simply not in the right field. There is also the question here of how much this area is tied into ego expression for me and whether or not it makes sense to pursue it. Also, it tends not to be a spiritually oriented field and I'm not sure I'd want to be swimming upstream, so to speak. However, I have played with the idea of being a fitness coach... I am also wondering if this whole area may not morph into an interest in and focus on Yoga.
I also suspect I might have a gift with regard to massage, but this is a completely unexplored area. I am thinking about getting certified in this area.
I suspect I have gifts in teaching/speaking but these are areas I have not pursued in any way. I know for certain that I would not enjoy conventional classroom teaching. And, I think like writing, I don't think I'd want teaching to be primary. Rather, I see it as being an extension of something else that I'm doing.
Well, I'll leave it at that. I hope this helps your understanding.
Peace,
Ellen
Linda/Ellen:
{Ellen's quotes are in purple.}
Ellen said: "By high school I desperately wanted to get out." I interpret this as: you were not happy to tolerate the consensus any longer.
Hi Linda, Yes, this is probably a correct interpretation. I was not CONSCIOUS of that though. I was just desperate to get out. I couldn't have really articulated why. And in hindsight I would put the emphasis on needing to find myself rather than needing to get away from the consensus.
"I ended up at a very liberal liberal arts college far from home where my eyes opened to a much larger world and an entirely different set of values." Arts is associated with the individuated stage...and indicates a desire in that direction... In your case Ellen, I would say you've been in this stage in the past, and were becoming reacquainted with it. You were quite clear of the direction to take and made no hesitation in returning to the individuated area which indicates an ease from the past.
There may be a language barrier or cultural difference here...? Liberal arts in the U.S. doesn't refer specifically to the arts. It refers to an immersion in a diverse coursework of studies spanning the humanities and sciences. I did not study "arts" in college. But I was very keen on learning about things that I really couldn't question or study before. Also, I'm not sure I understood how liberal the school that I attended was. The whole process of me choosing and going to college was very much influenced by a friend of mine. I had NO CLUE and she'd invite me along to the colleges she was visiting and having interviews at. In hindsight, I see that she saw my family wasn't encouraging me, so she took it upon herself to expose me to other possibilities. Eventually, she settled on one, so I did too. Then I couldn't return to that school (money). Desperate, I applied to another school she highly regarded (it gave out more financial aid), and went there and was glad that it happened to be far away from home. I think my whole motivation for seeking out a small private school was one of pride. All of my friends were going to these schools, and my pride demanded that I do too. I do think, however, that on a level a little beneath the radar, I knew I wouldn't be able to learn what I needed to learn (and I don't really mean subject matter, but more, just the basics in terms of how to think - how to use my mind..)at the state schools with the class sizes as large as they were.
"I went through a period of tremendous loneliness and isolation, feeling totally abandoned by God." Could this be the man-made god from catholic school? If so, another indication of moving away from the consensus.
Yes. Absolutely. (though I didn't go to Catholic school. I went to public schools.)
"Eventually I realized I was gay. Throughout childhood I kept this hidden from myself. I lived my early life in great fear, though, terrified of being found out (even though I didn't really know what that was). I never dated boys/men and felt in a state of constant terror about this expectation and pressure." Obviously there is "fear" around upsetting your consensus parents, which is normal.
Also fear about safety/security. I think that is more the core of the fear. I really felt fear for my life at a very deep level. I am not saying that I feared my parents or family would kill me. I didn't think that. But somehow my being gay and this deep fear for my life were intertwined, and to some degree, continue to be now.
"After I came out (I realized I was gay in my junior year of college), I pretty much raged through life, recognizing that all the people I thought loved me would have rejected me had they known I was gay. I became largely estranged from my family and hung out strictly with lesbians. " Perhaps this was an unconscious way to separate yourself from your loved ones...so that you could individuate further...or to make you conscious of who you really are.
I definitely think that my being gay has forced me to question and confront things that I otherwise would never have done. I think there is for me, in this life, a strong need to really discover who I am (consciously speaking) as separate from the crowd and to sort of learn to stand up for myself - to learn courage, maybe. So, yes, I think you are right - my actions gave me the space I needed to individuate further. I would also say that my actions really upended my life, and they have forced me to take account of things in a way that I otherwise would not have. I definitely would not have learned this lesson I'm learning now about understanding that everyone truly loved me as deeply as was/is possible for them had I not taken the path that I took. But it is not a path I would ever willingly take again. I am reminded of the story of the prince who jailed his father. After his father died, he had his own child. When he became aware of how deep his own love was for his child, he was overcome with remorse. The Buddha commented to his followers that he would not be able to reach enlightenment due to the mental distress of his actions towards his father.
"It never occurred to me to think about a career."
To me, this indicates the desire for the 'spiritual,' rather than the material consensus world.
"Recently, I left my job, primarily because it was no longer possible to do the kind of work that mattered to me due to the change in health care models that has been affecting the business for years now. Also, I have been sick for the past decade or so and the stress of the job was impeding my healing process." Leaving this job indicates the desire to move forward. I'm wondering whether becoming sick was a ploy to avoid the material world, and to give you more time in the spiritual.
Yes. The way I understand it, ie, how it feels to me, is that my life had gone as far as it could on the track that it was on and could go no further. Illness was the only way out. I was never going to make the changes that needed to be made thus, illness.
"I continued to go back and forth about astrology in general. But now, having gone through what I think is my last crisis about it, feel quite committed to it." You've probably been into astrology in the past, and you are learning how to incorporate the 'individuation' that astrology represents, into the spiritual (JWG).
Yes, that's exactly how it feels - what it feels like the challenge is at this time.
"Also during this time I went back to my Catholic roots, feeling that there was something there I had to face and reconcile. Mostly, what I discovered is that I needed to learn that not all Catholics were narrow. Once I saw that, I seemed able to release it, though I can still be driven to rage thinking about the hubris of the Catholic hierarchy." This describes the maturity of the spiritual state.
This is something that others have alluded to and that has opened my eyes some. I assumed that the anger/rage was a sure sign of spiritual immaturity. I am beginning to understand this differently now, thanks to yours and others comments.
"Hearing JWG talk about Yogananda a few months back, I reread his autobiography and fell in love. I feel now that I have made a genuine commitment to spiritual learning and practice." This definitely describes the spiritual condition.
"However, I continue to feel unclear about my life path and am uncertain that I will have the inner strength to resist the pressures to conform to expectations once I return to my home state and family." Obviously there are issues with the family, or one parent in particular, brought over from the past.
"Currently, I am experiencing episodes of huge fear that seem to be about "claiming my power" in the face of conditioning that demands that I cede my power to whatever human authority wants to keep me under wraps. However, I seem to be aware of this in a way I have never been (I've lived my life in fear) and so feel that I am working with it more constructively." You are coming out of centuries of conditioning, quite rapidly, and your awareness of what is going on indicates the spiritual state.
Another eye opening statement that others have alluded to but that I seem to be starting to get.
"I would also say that, until recently, I have lived my life in complete ignorance of the reality of the need to take care of myself and indeed resentful of this need. Outwardly, I did what I had to, but inwardly, the understanding really wasn't there." This describes the Virgo energy playing out in the 1st stage spiritual.
I would never have thought that. But it makes sense.
Ellen, My preliminary assessment of your evolutionary condition is early 1st s
Linda, Thanks for your assessment. I have learned a lot.
I think this is bluesky/me:
2. are you alienated from society to the point where you live an isolated life (group of one) or associate mainly with those of like-mind, and erect barriers between yourself and society so that you won't be sucked into having to live a life you don't resonate with? are you struggling to discover who you are as a person?
For the past decade or so, I've been too sick to even think about groups/socializing. Prior to that I always had a crowd. My tendency until recently has been to attract through negativity people who were critical of society in the ways that I have been. However, throughout my healing process, I became less and less happy about my negativity, and less and less desirous of connecting up with others in this way and tremendously frustrated when my friendships inevitably revolved around negativity. At the same time, I haven't wanted to pretend everything is ok when it's not. This is really the crux of my challenge right now. Where do I fit in in a constructive way? How can I engage in whatever work I am meant to do in a way that is both fulfilling to me and, without being destructive in a negative, harmful way (and attracting people oriented to negative/destructive ways), helps to transform society in the necessary ways it is needing to be transformed at this time. (And I would want to do this with others, not just by myself.) I feel that I don't want to turn my back on the world. Yet at the same time, I don't want to just go along with it. What is beginning to open up in my awareness is the understanding that it is not me who is doing the doing, but God/Source. So, I have been, on the one hand, allowing myself to recognize whatever gifts and interests I have, and on the other hand, asking God for direction. Learning to see my gifts, and even more than that, see that I have some, is really a big step for me; my self-denial (even hatred) has been quite profound.
I would also say that I did have a need to isolate myself from certain influences throughout much of my adulthood. And anger is what allowed me to do that. However, thanks to EA and the discussions on this MB, I am now beginning to understand my circumstances and the other people in my life differently. I see that they have loved and cared about me to the extent that they were able. My anger can still rear its head - its still my first reaction in many cases - but I recognize it for what it is and can work with it. I also recognize now that if I am to continue my healing process and continue further on the spiritual path, I need to recognize the possibilities and abilities of the people in my life and seek out those who are truly committed to the spiritual path.
3. do you feel deep within yourself that you can change the world/society for the better, in a way that is large or small, and have the confidence to do so and live your life accordingly? do you know who you are as a person?
I feel that at this time, I am learning to anchor my life in the spiritual and self-awareness practices, and align myself with the teachers and spiritual paths, that will allow me to confidently move through the world.
4. does your consciousness revolve around seeking the truth and living your life according to that truth on a consistent and daily basis? are you seeking spiritual guidance and advice according to which you can lead such a life?
Yes, I would say I have always, in whatever ways I was able, sought the truth and that much of my anger has been about seeing untruth all around me. I couldn't have said, exactly, why I was angry or named the truths/untruths, but I think I always had some sort of sense that things were screwed up. Much of my adult life, especially since my Saturn Return, has been spent trying to understand my own emotional dynamics and the ways I have been causing harm to myself through my self-ignorance. I have begun, tentatively, seeking spiritual guidance. I feel, through Yogananda, I have finally found a tradition that makes sense to me and that works for me.
Thanks for your questions. I hope my answers help.
Peace,
Ellen
Well that's what I have saved. Hope it is helpful.
Peace,
Ellen
Hi Linda,
I'll respond to your post as soon as I'm able. Hopefully tomorrow.
COPY OF LAST PAGE OF ELLEN'S THREAD
Ellen Hi Linda and All,
My day was busier than expected and tomorrow also looks busy. So sorry for the delay in response. I will respond as soon as I'm able.
Ellen
Linda That's fine Ellen.
I'm still trying to work out why I asked you that question,
and why I came to that conclusion.
Ellen Quote from: Linda on Jun 25, 2010, 07:34 PMQuoteEllen,
I'm glad to hear that your feeling is that we haven't settled on anything yet.
I like to bounce off the latest advice and findings of others in this thread ... and at the moment I am preparing more questions for you geared to end of 3rd Individuated moving into 1st Spiritual.
Perhaps I can start by asking:
1. What actions or steps, no matter how small or large, have you consistently taken in your desire to serve the Great Everything?
Mostly, I would say that the actions I have taken have been actions of "stopping", ie, stopping past patterns of behavior that were self-destructive and out of alignment with God. Also, the whole point of the illness I have struggled with, as I have come to understand it, has been to force me to question all of beliefs/assumptions/behaviors/direction in life/etc - to see how small ego was the driver and how that really wasn't satisfying ultimately. More recently, I have begun to meditate and to study Yogananda's teachings through SRF.
2. Is this desire completely new, or have you experienced it earlier in your life?
It is not completely new I have always had a desire to know God, but I have always been put off by religion and felt stumped as to how to proceed. I also think I had some conditioning patterns to work through, thus I was not receptive to "spiritual/non-religious systems due to these patterns.
3. Has this service manifested, or is it still in the realm of indecision or desire?
It is in the realm of desire. The question is (given that I have to make a living, financially-speaking), what can I actually do?
You may have answered some of these earlier (please refresh our memories a little) yet these questions are now geared to another state of evolution.
Thanks!
I hope these answers help. Let me know if you want me to explain further. If I able, I will be happy to do so.
Peace,
Ellen
Upasika Hi Ellen (and everyone),
Just checking in ... I'm still tied up with relocating, and also have a backlog of other things building up to be dealt with so can't contribute much for a while. But I don't feel we have conclusively determined your stage yet Ellen, just narrowed it down to cusp Indiv 2nd/3rd to Indiv 3rd to cusp Indiv 3rd/Spiritual 1st (I think that's the collective feeling?). And it would be good to not leave this incomplete (but I can only wish for that, as I can't personally help much to make that happen for a little while)
However for now, I feel it's important to delve more into what your skipped step(s) are Ellen, and how they would manifest differently for each of the possible substages you might be in. As Rad pointed out, skipped steps can cause a person to manifest life events and behavior that are of a substage earlier than the person's actual ea stage. Until we can see more clearly the effect your skipped steps have had on you this lifetime, it's a source of potential confusion regarding your stage.
This is my feeling about where we're at with your stage Ellen so far, but I can't offer any more at this point, just too tied up.
blessings Upasika
Linda Hi Ellen,
I've been away. Thanks for answering my questions in your Reply #137 the result of which I feel your spirituality cannot be overlooked as you have a real desire in that area. Perhaps you are just beginning to move into the early 1st stage spiritual.
I see misapplications of trust in many areas of the chart, which amplify the skipped steps in honesty/intuition/trust/faith (Jupiter Aries 7th) within relationships and friendships. The way I see the resolution to your skipped steps is through the South Node Capricorn 4th, ruler Saturn Aquarius 5th, to redefine your self-image, to become emotionally self-secure and to create a special purpose with others of like-mind where you are allowed to search and express truth and knowledge (Jupiter 7th) in an equal way among others, or to find that self-authority that will enable you to play a teaching/facilitation role in a group environment. Uranus is completing a cycle relative to natal Pluto 12th, this aspect giving a clue to making that final adjustment requiring you to revolutionize or transform your spiritual intentions.
Rad pointed out that skipped steps can cause a person to manifest life events and behavior that are of a sub-stage earlier than the person's actual EA stage. There may have been a requirement to go back to understand and fulfill the skipped steps in what could have appeared to be the individuated state since much of your bio presents that way, but regardless of that, I'm beginning to feel that you are in fact in the early 1st stage spiritual (which was my intuitive feeling from the start).
There's a beautiful kite pattern incorporating 6 planets, with Neptune Scorpio 2nd as the outlet for the energies. There is hesitation and less confidence with Neptune, which could cloud your Moon Taurus 8th, causing you to feel unsure about your self-image especially, or the sources of power that you merge with, with a requirement to identify your values and resources, and develop self-reliance, but because the energies would be shored up via the grand trines in water houses (!), you could succeed quite well.
It seems there has been a new development since you posted a thread entitled "question for admin" telling us that you desire to run an EA study group. Could this be the resolution to your skipped steps!?
Gosh, it took me ages to work this out. We're getting closer I'm sure to your evolutionary state! Our quest is ongoing, so I'll wait to hear from the others before posting a final conclusion.
Ellen Hi Upasika,
Nice to hear from you. I hope the relocation is going well. I think your thinking re: what to cover next is right on. I think that will help to really understand what's going on. I see that Linda has started that process in her next post. It'll be interesting to see how this develops.
Peace to you,
Ellen
EllenHi Linda,
Thanks so much for your post and for all the continued thinking you have been putting into this. I would like to take some time to think about what you've written before I reply in any detail. I've been running here and there exploring career paths, so I've not had a lot of quality time to really digest information. I'm looking forward to reading through what you've written with more thought. Based on my first read through, I thought you hit some important points.
Peace,
Ellen
adina Hi Ellen,
I'd like to make a suggestion at this point of the discussion, based on the following: You have bravely and graciously shared your life story with us - your hopes and dreams, your foibles and follies, etc. In addition many people here have asked more questions and have offered well thought out analyses of what your evolutionary stage might be.
Then, too, we've somewhat covered the issue of the skipped steps, which Wolf taught long ago could make the person APPEAR to be in an earlier stage of development. Part of that CAN come from a repeat OF different stages of evolution - or specific ISSUES that got "skipped" in a prior evolutionary stage and so need to be recovered there. I've known more than one person (including myself) who was at first confused about what stage they were in because early parts of their life on the OUTside reflected a different stage. But underneath that confusion, too, most of us had an intuitive idea about where we were, because underneath it all there was single underlying essence that held everything else together, so that more often than not, the stage we thought first at a gut/intuitive level was, indeed, the stage we were in.
The only caveat to that is that the person needs to be able to look at him or herself clearly and honestly. (Sometimes we CAN think we're a little more evolved than we are. ). But from what I've read from you here, I don't think you run that risk. It seems you are pretty clear and honest with yourself, and by extension, with us here on the forum.
So, with all that information, both from within, and from others, I'd like to suggest that you, too, more than likely have already intuited what your evolutionary stage is. And we can actually sidetrack you away from your intuition by what we used to call "Virgoizing" an issue. LOL That is, we can make it much more difficult than it needs to be, and pull in too many details. Wolf said SO, SO often, "The truth is ALways simple." (With a s node in the 6th house, this has been a lesson for me as well. ). So, knowing what you know now about skipped steps and how one can appear to be in an earlier stage, I believe if you think of what you shared here and plugged it in to how some of your thoughts and actions fit certain earlier stages - BUT NO LONGER DO - you will "see" for yourself - thru your intuition, your original gut reaction - your strongest underlying essence that indicates where you actually are. I say all this because I really feel you know more than you're giving yourself credit for, and I want to encourage you to tap into your inner knowledge and guidance.
This is just my own suggestion; you and others may feel very differently.
God Bless,
Adina
http://bluelotusletters.com/site/
Ellen
Quote from: Linda on Jun 30, 2010, 10:08 PMQuoteHi Ellen,
I've been away. Thanks for answering my questions in your Reply #137 the result of which I feel your spirituality cannot be overlooked as you have a real desire in that area. Perhaps you are just beginning to move into the early 1st stage spiritual.
I see misapplications of trust in many areas of the chart, which amplify the skipped steps in honesty/intuition/trust/faith (Jupiter Aries 7th) within relationships and friendships. The way I see the resolution to your skipped steps is through the South Node Capricorn 4th, ruler Saturn Aquarius 5th, to redefine your self-image, to become emotionally self-secure
This (in bold) I think is absolutely dead on.
and to create a special purpose with others of like-mind where you are allowed to search and express truth and knowledge (Jupiter 7th) in an equal way among others,
Yes, also true. The surprising thing for me is that this has been needing to start with my family (4th house) and indeed now is.
or to find that self-authority that will enable you to play a teaching/facilitation role in a group environment.
This also I think is true. What is surprising to me is that where I am going with this right now, in terms of career, is back to my athletic roots. Astrology and spiritual practice both seem to be shaping up at this time as avocations, but not careers; the things that stabilize my life, help me to grow and deepen, but hobbies, not income-producing paths. Hopefully, they will both end up being ways that I connect up with others "off-duty", as is the case with this mb, for example.
Uranus is completing a cycle relative to natal Pluto 12th, this aspect giving a clue to making that final adjustment requiring you to revolutionize or transform your spiritual intentions.
Yes, and in the 12th - it seems that taking that leap into the abyss, Uranian style, is in order.
Rad pointed out that skipped steps can cause a person to manifest life events and behavior that are of a sub-stage earlier than the person's actual EA stage. There may have been a requirement to go back to understand and fulfill the skipped steps in what could have appeared to be the individuated state since much of your bio presents that way
Yes, my own feeling about this is that the individuated expression of my life has been a kind of burning away of dross, to once and for all work through and anchor individuated wisdom/knowing.
but regardless of that, I'm beginning to feel that you are in fact in the early 1st stage spiritual (which was my intuitive feeling from the start).
I am also thinking this - a toe in.
There's a beautiful kite pattern incorporating 6 planets, with Neptune Scorpio 2nd as the outlet for the energies. There is hesitation and less confidence with Neptune, which could cloud your Moon Taurus 8th, causing you to feel unsure about your self-image especially, or the sources of power that you merge with, with a requirement to identify your values and resources, and develop self-reliance,
Yes. My own feeling about this, as I watch my life unfold, is that the sources of power I have to learn to merge with are spiritual sources, ie, Source - and that self-reliance builds from there.
but because the energies would be shored up via the grand trines in water houses (!), you could succeed quite well.
I think letting my emotions guide me - using this as my strength, yes?
It seems there has been a new development since you posted a thread entitled "question for admin" telling us that you desire to run an EA study group. Could this be the resolution to your skipped steps!?
I am not sure. I hadn't thought about it as running a study group. I'd been thinking about it more as gathering people together who might be interested in astrology and in this particular way of seeing the world and building community and bolstering my own studying through these gatherings.
Gosh, it took me ages to work this out. We're getting closer I'm sure to your evolutionary state! Our quest is ongoing, so I'll wait to hear from the others before posting a final conclusion.
Thank you so much for all of the effort you have put into this! I knew that figuring out my stage would be tricky, which was a big reason why I wanted to share my bio (in addition to just wanting to feel sure within myself of what my stage actually is), but I'm not sure I thought it would be quite as tricky as it has been! Nevertheless, I do feel that all the sweat and tears with mine and Ashley's charts has helped me to start to appreciate the subtleties of these things.
Peace,
Ellen
Ellen Hi Adina,
Thanks so much for your thoughts on this. Indeed, I am starting to get a sense of things. I am starting to feel that I have a toe in 1st Spiritual, yet at the same time, I am still needing to finish up the skipped steps of, as Linda pointed out, self-reliance and emotional security/self-authority, and also just the crux of individuated itself - a true sense of and appreciation of what is unique about me - what is my particular way in the world - and valuing that (after all, it is God desiring to express in the world, not "me".) The trick has been to understand (now that I seem to be truly through all the rage and anger), on the one hand, my desire to do what God desires me to do, ie, to be of service, yet at the same time continuing to be pointed towards individuated type steps, and being confused by that. I am, for example, pursuing a path in personal training as opposed to, say, yoga. To me it simply feels that that is where I'm being guided - a kind of going back to the past to learn, after years of feeling spiritually and intellectually inferior - that it is simply ok to love fitness/being active (as opposed to scholarship or explicitly spiritual living - you know, like being a hermit in the Himalayas) and to have that (fitness) be central (and possibly/probably the foundation from which evolution can take place, ie, perhaps yoga will manifest down the road as I start to truly understand the limitations of "fitness" and thus desire to move beyond it, from a foundation of my own understanding and sense of self-worth rather than self-denigration). Phew! - hope all that makes sense!
Anyway, I'd be curious as to what others are thinking, though I am feeling a sense of confidence in what I have just articulated.
Peace and goodwill,
Ellen
bluesky Ellen, are we done with your chart?
Because I was wondering if anyone wanted to post thoughts about how your natal pluto and nodal axis could be interpreted, individuated versus spiritual...
would anyone like to comment on this?
Linda Thanks Bluesky. Here's Ellen's chart again for those who wish to examine her Pluto dynamic in both the individuated and spiritual stages.
Hi Ellen,
From an early Spiritual Stage perspective, with the skipped steps appearing to take you back to the Individuated Stage:
A few thoughts on your chart. Mars/Cap/4th gives you that competitive spirit/love of sports, and it conjuncts the South Node which is a re-live of your past-life Mars issues. The whole chart shows misapplication of trust, and a search for a strong partner (Jupiter/Aries/7th).
Pluto Virgo 12th Rx describes the prior evolutionary desire to experience your own individuality as an extension of the Source, thereby spiritualizing all aspects of your life. This area continues to evolve.
The present soul intention is described by the Pluto polarity point, Pisces 6th, to develop specific and practical mental methods of self-analysis, to see the connections, to harness specific meditation techniques, thereby bringing about self-purification in your connection to the Source.
Pluto is supported by SN/Cap/4th: did you have a tendency to seek security from the men in your life (Sun, Mars), and facilitated by Saturn/Aquarius/5th, in particular your father? There is a requirement to develop the NN/10th, your self-authority, social role, facilitated by the Moon/Taurus/8th by merging with symbols of power and transformation, eg self-reliant women.
The resolution to your skipped steps lies in the SN/Cap (with Mars conjunct) having to develop a secure self-image/emotional self-reliance/self-authority all based on honesty to partners (Jupiter/7th).
There was a "˜moral decision' or the requirement to be honest (Jupiter/Aries/7th) about your sexuality, and disclosure to partners. You were flip-flopping back and forth from the SN/4th to the NN/10th (gender switch), which resulted in strong feelings of alienation from partners/friends/society/family (Jupiter/Aries/7th).
This past-life issue gives the strong appearance of "Individuated" due to that Mars/Jupiter square where you are wondering, "What do I do now?" or your inner self as it relates to others. Perhaps the skipped steps described the requirement for honesty (Jupiter) in communicating (Mercury conj SN/Mars, Mercury rules the chart, Mercury rules Pluto) your gayness: and this you have done.
I'm wondering, did you have a re-live relationship with a man as symbolized by Mars conjunct your SN, ruled by Saturn/Aquarius/5th? The SN conj Mars could just be your own image of your inner self: athletic, unique, different, restricted (Saturn/Aquarius/5th). Perhaps the problem was actually trying to break the news to your parents? If so, this could have been where the skipped steps were worked on.
We see that Neptune rules your 7th house and is found in Scorpio/2nd, so perhaps, together with the skipped steps, there is a need to strip away any delusions, to find that strong sense of self-reliance, and to see yourself as your own self-transformative symbol (Neptune/Scorpio/2nd) as you align and merge with spiritual power source, and work/share together with friends of a spiritual orientation.
It's interesting also that Uranus is just about completing its cycle relative to Pluto 12th and this, to me, is a symbol of your present issues, hanging on to that "individuality" or "retreating to the past" whereas there is a need to look forward to the new cycle where you can begin to express your hard-won individuality within the Spiritual State.
Thanks Ellen, please let me know if any of this makes sense. Hope others will join in too.
isn't 12th house pluto about desiring to merge with the source (jumping into the abyss, as I remember it from the 1st pluto book) but holding back?
maybe the cause (south node cap, saturn in aquarius) was rebellion against the system, causing trauma, now resulting in the inability to submit to a "higher authority" - which I understand is a necessary part of the spiritual process.
so the 12th house pluto could indicate attempts at 1st steps in the spiritual stage, with the remnants of individuation - rebelling against society, establishing your own voice in society with respect to that process - getting in the way of the spiritualization process. After all, that could have been a long, difficult fight. I realize that the individuation process could involve "rebellion" for anyone who goes through it, but in your case that would especially be so.
I don't think I've expressed myself very well - so if anyone wants to finesse my comments, go ahead :D
Hi Linda,
Thanks so much for your analysis. What you wrote definitely makes sense, though I would say definitely from a very very early stage of 1st spiritual, ie, still have some big humps to get over.
My answers are in quotes.
Ellen
Quote from: Linda on Jul 27, 2010, 07:43 PM
Hi Ellen,
From an early Spiritual Stage perspective, with the skipped steps appearing to take you back to the Individuated Stage:
A few thoughts on your chart. Mars/Cap/4th gives you that competitive spirit/love of sports, and it conjuncts the South Node which is a re-live of your past-life Mars issues. The whole chart shows misapplication of trust, and a search for a strong partner (Jupiter/Aries/7th).
"To me, this is true."
Pluto Virgo 12th Rx describes the prior evolutionary desire to experience your own individuality as an extension of the Source, thereby spiritualizing all aspects of your life. This area continues to evolve.
"Yes, also true. But I would say with a lot of resistance and also confusion - Pluto in 12th endlessly spinning out false visions/goals/directions/etc."
The present soul intention is described by the Pluto polarity point, Pisces 6th, to develop specific and practical mental methods of self-analysis, to see the connections, to harness specific meditation techniques, thereby bringing about self-purification in your connection to the Source.
"Again, completely true, though it is definitely a slow process and I find it difficult to commit to a spiritual community. Someone also mentioned to me that it is about learning to be of service to the Divine. To me, this is also true. And for me the difficulty is understanding how I can bring who I am into this service; in other words, what I'm figuring out is that it's not about leaving me behind, but about bringing me into the picture."
Pluto is supported by SN/Cap/4th: did you have a tendency to seek security from the men in your life (Sun, Mars), and facilitated by Saturn/Aquarius/5th, in particular your father?
"I would not say that I CONSCIOUSLY sought it. But my Soul did choose an authoritarian type family structure where the security came from following the rules, and it was definitely my father's house and his rules."
There is a requirement to develop the NN/10th, your self-authority, social role, facilitated by the Moon/Taurus/8th by merging with symbols of power and transformation, eg self-reliant women.
"This is an interesting comment re: self-reliant women. Ultimately, I think I am meant to BE that self-reliant woman, which is what I think you are saying. I find this whole piece of the puzzle extremely difficult."
The resolution to your skipped steps lies in the SN/Cap (with Mars conjunct) having to develop a secure self-image/emotional self-reliance/self-authority all based on honesty to partners (Jupiter/7th).
"Hmmm... I would look at it this way: that by developing a secure self-image/emotional self-reliance/self-authority, honesty with partners will be possible. However, I would also say that these qualities, once it is recognized that they are what are needing to be developed, may perhaps be best developed within the context of trusting partnerships. To me it is a tricky line: I have to get far enough along in my own development (which I think I'm finally getting to - close to anyway) before I can do the real work of partnership. I know that this is true for anyone, but it is, I think, especially true for me."
There was a "˜moral decision' or the requirement to be honest (Jupiter/Aries/7th) about your sexuality, and disclosure to partners. You were flip-flopping back and forth from the SN/4th to the NN/10th (gender switch), which resulted in strong feelings of alienation from partners/friends/society/family (Jupiter/Aries/7th).
"Yes, definitely strong feelings of alienation from all of the above. And yes, in this lifetime, a strong need to be clear about who I am, within myself, and then to not try to hide it from others. Big task in this life, I'd say."
This past-life issue gives the strong appearance of "Individuated" due to that Mars/Jupiter square where you are wondering, "What do I do now?" or your inner self as it relates to others. Perhaps the skipped steps described the requirement for honesty (Jupiter) in communicating (Mercury conj SN/Mars, Mercury rules the chart, Mercury rules Pluto) your gayness: and this you have done.
"Yes, "what do I do now" is a very big question. Ok, I've figured out me - who I am in this regard (gay). Now what? How do I participate/contribute/etc... (note that Sun/Moon are in a gibbous phase, Saturn is in Aq in 5th and sq Moon). I definitely think the honesty in communicating my gayness in the face of rejection is definitely a part of the skipped steps in the sense of me having to learn to be who I am regardless (my being gay simply forced the issue, ie, no way I could avoid it within me)."
I'm wondering, did you have a re-live relationship with a man as symbolized by Mars conjunct your SN, ruled by Saturn/Aquarius/5th?
"As far as I know, the answer to that is No, unless perhaps one considers my relationship with my father."
The SN conj Mars could just be your own image of your inner self: athletic, unique, different, restricted (Saturn/Aquarius/5th). Perhaps the problem was actually trying to break the news to your parents? If so, this could have been where the skipped steps were worked on.
"This seems more true to my experience. It was definitely a big deal for me when I realized I had to tell my parents."
We see that Neptune rules your 7th house and is found in Scorpio/2nd, so perhaps, together with the skipped steps, there is a need to strip away any delusions, to find that strong sense of self-reliance, and to see yourself as your own self-transformative symbol (Neptune/Scorpio/2nd) as you align and merge with spiritual power source, and work/share together with friends of a spiritual orientation.
"Definitely a need to strip away delusions and this as a result of relationship failures. I think the last part is also true, but I feel that I haven't quite reached that plateau in terms of that really coming into being in my daily life. But I definitely feel a desire for it and it is definitely what attracts me to this EA community."
It's interesting also that Uranus is just about completing its cycle relative to Pluto 12th and this, to me, is a symbol of your present issues, hanging on to that "individuality" or "retreating to the past"
"Yes. Bingo."
whereas there is a need to look forward to the new cycle where you can begin to express your hard-won individuality within the Spiritual State.
"Again, bingo. I feel that this is exactly the challenge facing me at this time. And it is unclear how far I will progress. I do feel that just making it to the point of understanding that this is what the challenge is and the requirement is, is a success of some sorts. However, I hope I can figure out how to actually manifest some of this in this particular lifetime."
Thanks Ellen, please let me know if any of this makes sense. Hope others will join in.
[/b]
Quote from: bluesky on Jul 27, 2010, 11:38 PM
isn't 12th house pluto about desiring to merge with the source (jumping into the abyss, as I remember it from the 1st pluto book) but holding back?
Yes. And my understanding of one way that you can hold back is that you become hyper-focused on some aspect of yourself or area of interest and convince yourself that that's totally what it's about, but inside you feel hollow and know that you're just fooling yourself. I feel that in this lifetime, particularly at this particular time in my life, that it is this dynamic that I have been caught up in and trying to figure out how to just let go and trust. In a certain sense I HAVE always trusted, yet here I am in a major life jam at this time in my life. So I'm feeling a little desperate, trying to figure out what I can do that will both be in service to the Divine and at the same time be something that I enjoy. In reality of course, there should be no dichotomy here. The way it seems to me is that, just by the very fact that there IS such a dichotomy here for me is an indicator of resistance, and I FEEL that dynamic of trying to make something be real - trying to latch onto some aspect of myself and make that into something. And this because of fear based on the need to provide a source of income for myself....... STRUGGLE :-\
maybe the cause (south node cap, saturn in aquarius) was rebellion against the system, causing trauma, now resulting in the inability to submit to a "higher authority" - which I understand is a necessary part of the spiritual process.
I think this is exactly right. The habit-pattern of rebellion has been VERY strong in this life, even if it was kept under wraps in my childhood. And this is definitely a significant factor in my efforts to cultivate a spiritual practice and in my efforts to find a spiritual community.
so the 12th house pluto could indicate attempts at 1st steps in the spiritual stage, with the remnants of individuation - rebelling against society, establishing your own voice in society with respect to that process - getting in the way of the spiritualization process. After all, that could have been a long, difficult fight. I realize that the individuation process could involve "rebellion" for anyone who goes through it, but in your case that would especially be so.
I don't think I've expressed myself very well - so if anyone wants to finesse my comments, go ahead :D
I think you've hit it right on.
Hi Ellen,
Linda said: There is a requirement to develop the NN/10th, your self-authority, social role, facilitated by the Moon/Taurus/8th by merging with symbols of power and transformation, eg self-reliant women.
Ellen said: "This is an interesting comment re: self-reliant women. Ultimately, I think I am meant to BE that self-reliant woman, which is what I think you are saying. I find this whole piece of the puzzle extremely difficult."
Yes, you are meant to be that self-reliant woman, but are you? The 8th house can represent where you feel your limitations or your "powerlessness." I used the example of forming relationships with symbols of power such as "strong self-reliant women" because they may symbolize something that you need due to a perceived lack.
I intuited this lack due to overall "emotional" problems in the chart: SN dynamics in the 4th, the resolution to the skipped steps being in the 4th, and also because Neptune opposes your Moon bringing some confusion. The Moon is very important because it is the facilitator of your NN social role and purpose.
The fixed t-square could explain "feeling hollow" and "at a jam at this time in my life" and certainly your Sun (purpose) 4.41 deg Capricorn being impacted by Transiting-Pluto now. T-Pluto will conjunct your SN in a few years time bringing resolution to the skipped steps.
These transits will be necessary before you can resolve some of your emotional problems (4th), become that "strong self-reliant woman" (Moon 8th), and find, develop and express your true dharma (PP 6th, NN 10th, Neptune 2nd). Things will definitely improve as Pluto makes its way through Capricorn because it will make easy (fulfillment) aspects to your kite pattern. As the Pluto transit unfolds, it may release latent talents and capacities into your consciousness.
I can't work out the evolutionary stage from your chart, but I can see how the early 1st Stage Spiritual has been playing out in your life since there is a strong desire to find your true dharma, together with the "appearance" of going back to the Individuated state to resolve your skipped steps. There's a strong emphasis in water houses, also Neptune in Scorpio, and NN in water (Cancer).
If you feel you are to fulfill spiritual work, I think your EA study group is a good start. The very beginning of 1st Stage Spiritual would involve a decision-making/trial & error process: I just noticed your unaspected Venus.
Ellen, do you feel we've nailed it yet? Any doubts, questions? I'd be happy to hear from others more experienced at this stage, and I'd also be happy to delve deeper if you wish.
Hi Ellen,
I've been pretty sick for the last while, but ocasionally pop onto the board for a quick read. And I've always been interested in us completing your thread here so its great it hasn't just faded out as it looked it might. Very interesting stuff from everyone, and your responses to them. I felt to add to what the others have said with some additional comments, but dont have enough energy available to analyse things comprehensively or put them in a cohesive order, its more a bunch of ideas....
Looking at your chart you seem to have a lot of family stuff going on (SN in 4th conj Sun, Mars & Merc), and a gender switch in recent lives. Mars in Capricorn indicates a lot of repression of your basic instincts in past lives from too much desire (or forced need) to subjugate yourself to authorities and please/satisfy others, at the expense of yourself. As well as being involved through it's conj to the SN, Mars also rules your skipped steps (Jupiter) indicating this has contributed majorly to those skipped steps, and family stuff may be central to what the skipped steps are actually about. In itself Jupiter in Aries is a strong and expanded sense of self/individuality that could easily be very self centered. It seems to me then that "individualising" itself might be your skipped step, brought about by all the pandering to/acquiesing of authorities instead of following your truth in your relationships (Jup in 7th). With Saturn (ruler of your SN) in the 5th, the "authorities" could well have been your father (at the time) in past lives, and certainly in this life it sounds like your current father represents an authority you have had to submit to a great deal.
Aquarius via Uranus rules the individualising process in general and you have Saturn in Aquarius indicating a possible blockage with the process, and also in finding your real creative self expression (Saturn in 5th), which will not be resolved by reliance on outside help, it must be resolved by the efforts you make with "your own hands" ... this is the internalising nature of Saturn's pain & limitation, and sense of inadequacy (and Saturn = "hard work") ... but then that growth will be well and truly yours and the mastery attained will never be dependent on anyone else for it's actualisation or sustainment. Saturn in Aquarius also indicates a source of trauma and being in the 5th possibly points to father issues again. While in your childhood you loved your time with your family, this was maybe because you have invested in family situations a great deal in the past (4th house SN and other energies) at the expense of your individuality, and you just orientated there again starting out this life. But your need is to move away from that for good and establish yourself on your own terms (NN 10th, Saturn in Aquarius in 5th, Jupiter in Aries square 4th), but you've always resisted this => leading to skipped steps.
Mars in Capricorn shows deep buried resentment and anger at authorities and given its conj to SN and square to Jupiter could almost alone account for most of your anger in this life, whether you were in the individualising stage or not, especially as that aspect looks to be a relive one. But my feeling is that you are still in the 3rd individualising stage and that some of the anger you have felt in this life is the last echoes of 2nd individated anger being exhausted from your system. It's been especially potent in this life because of the skipped steps being brought into full focus this life creating a great confusion and frustration within - that you have also projected without. But now it seems its burnt itself out a lot and you are coming to feel yourself as relatively more calm with a desire to channel the anger constructively into positive expressions.
Your gayness to me is possibly just a natural condition due to the recent gender switch not being fully integrated yet, because of all the above acting as a confusing distraction to knowing yourself better: just navigating family and society issues concerning it to arrive at the realisation yourself about it has taken a great chunk of your life. Also Mars in Capricorn will readily adopt a double life as a defense strategy so you have no doubt had to maintain two distinct sets of people in your life - those you trust and those you don't, feeding those you don't all sorts of red herrings as to your actual sexual orientation, even if they weren't actually intrinsically judgemental of gay people. This would have further exacberated your difficulty in resting easy in your own skin re this issue, naturally and at all times.
With Pluto in the 12th, your interest in the spiritual is not new. Pluto's SN is in the 4th indicating your spiritual interest may have originated out of (or as a reaction to) family situations, and it's ruler, Saturn, is in Aquarius in the 5th conj the SN of Neptune and squaring Moon and Neptune. Looks like you have also been involved with the matriarchy as an authority within it, but had to hide this side of yourself in more recent lives, basically giving away your truth and living according to patriarchal falsehoods. This has then brought you in this life to actually choose a very conventional and authoritan family to be born into, a complete contradiction to what you sense in your being, with a resulting confusion regarding just who you actually were. And this also indicates that your spiritual interest has been arrested for quite a long time (reflected by Pluto in your 12th opp Chiron in 6th). But now, due to the very strong focus on your skipped steps in this life (Jup square Nodes/Mars/Sun - with the Sun also square Ascendant, assuming your time is good) it's as if you are awakening from a slumber and finally tuning into yourself on your own terms. And as you do so your interest in spirituality is also awakening again.
It may take more time for your life to unfold to really see the significance of your spiritual interest, as skipped steps and hiding signatures can obscure the essential reality so much. But for now it seems to me you may likely be a 3rd individuated soul who is finding their own feet after a very long time of denial and repression, and with it a renewed interest in the Divine. Everything you say to me points to the clear need to identify some core talents you have that you can use to develop your sense of self further (reflected for example by Venus, ruler of 2nd being in 5th), which can also serve the purpose of integrating you into society on your own terms, and which will also stabilise you (your sense of identity) at a very core level. Even if these talents are in the "spiritual" field my feeling is that your need is to complete the individualising process, and you would simply be doing that in following those spiritual interests (Uranus in the 12th). Your Pluto in the 12th represents the need to take the plunge in doing this. Chiron in the 6th is opp Pluto and Uranus in the 12th, indicating much resistance to doing so for fear of more persecution, but it's also trining Nep and NN and the likelihood that any steps you take in this direction, no matter how small, will work out much better than your fears would have you believe.
The bottom line however is your 4th house (Jup applying to SN in 4th), so that's where you must keep a constant focus in order to keep everything moving progressively forward - processing feelings and emotions by yourself, being present to and honoring your shifting emotional realities as they occur, learning to love and appreciate yourself whether others do or not, being vulnerable without concern for how that makes you look in the eyes of others or whether they will exploit you.
And finding something meaningful you can do in the community you live in/society for work - in your case as a (provisional) 3rd individuated this would have to not only be of value to those for whom you are doing it, it needs to be something you genuinely enjoy to do yourself. I know you feel this is a huge challenge ! But it always is for everyone in 3rd individuated a) identifying what they love to do, and b) finding ways to do that for a living. This is THE challenge (in one sense) of 3rd individuated as I understand it, it is the actual process of doing this that contributes to the growth to the soul at this EA stage. And from my observation, it often seems just a huge dream that what a 3rd individuated soul may love to do, is quietly very passionate about, could ever be their full time job that they make a living out of. Well, with Virgo ASC, and Chiron in the 6th opp Pluto/Uranus you are well eqipped to take that "dream" or passion, and via small steps, one after the other, start anyway, even if on a hobby basis. But what you put energy into grows, and if you keep going one day you may find that dream has actually become a reality. This would boost your self image enormously, and that would be a great healing balm to your soul and a potent nail in the coffin to your skipped steps - being your true self in relationship with others (via your career/vocation). (BTW maybe Chiron in the 6th indicates real possibilities as a healer of some kind ?)
Well Ellen, thats a few ideas based on you ... being 3rd individuated, but having manifesting 2nd individuated (and at times 1st individuated and even consensus) traits due to skipped steps, with a renewed interest in the spiritual arising, now that you have managed to expel a lot of past debris out of your system. And now feeling empty, facing a void in life direction (as one would totally expect given the above combined with Pluto in Virgo and a Virgo ascendent) but with a few new friends and fellow travellers in life, a new determination (NN in 10th) to get on with fulfilling your intentions and potential, and a clear canvas on which to bring your truest vision for yourself (Plu in 12th) into reality. However, as I said, it's a provisional evaluation, and time may prove that you are actually in cusp indiv/spiritual stage, or even in beginning of spiritual.
But for now, as a contrast to Linda and others outlining 1st spiritual for you, I'm proposing you're somewhere in 3rd individuated. But others may see it differently.
blessings Upasika
Hi Upasika,
Sorry you've not been feeling well - hope you improve quickly. It was great reading your analysis of Ellen's chart, and I agree with what you said about her family issues. Your proposition for 3rd Individuated sounds really feasible. I'm looking forward to Ellen's feedback, and to further exploration of her evolutionary condition.
Hi Upasika,
I am so sorry to hear that your illness continues. I know how difficult illness can be. May God/dess bless you with healing and vibrant health.
Thank you so much for your thoughts and the effort you put into articulating them. You make a compelling case for 3rd Individuated. I will go through your post in detail with my responses when I have more time - later tonight or tomorrow I am hoping. For now I just wanted to offer one piece of info. for you and others to consider. I know that someone said that JWG said that many people tend to put themselves further along than they are and I certainly think that is possible with me at this point. However, there is one thing that I would like to share with you and others with regard to my own internal "sense" that leads me to think 1st spiritual as opposed to 3rd individuated. It has to do with the sense of "been there, done that". The internal sense I have is that it is not my task necessarily to figure out how to constructively offer something to/for society - to move society along in some way - that I've already done that. That piece of the puzzle, to the extent that it does crop up, seems to relate strictly to survival needs (ie, I HAVE to find some way that I can contribute so that I can provide for myself and of course I'm not interested in just supporting/contributing to the status quo as that would not reflect my values) It (that piece of the puzzle) also seems to throw me off when I start to orient in that way. The inner pull that I feel, and that always feels right when I orient to this perspective, is how can I be of service to God/dess. How can I simply trust - to do what is before me and let go of the rest - to trust that it will all work out - because it is God/dess working through me. It is a subtle difference, but one that I notice. That could simply be PPP in the 6th/Pisces....? And my sense of "been there, done that" could perhaps be memories of prominent 3rd consensus lifetimes, so a confusion about that.
On the surface, I think both orientations end up looking the same. But I think the thing for me isn't to figure out what my talent is (I do not think that you said this. This is just me having a dialog with myself), but to let go and simply accept that it matters...from the perspective of God/dess, not society (when I orient to thinking about how/why it matters to society, I quickly lose my way). So I don't know if this sense changes anything. It could also quite simply be Pluto in 12th playing out, regardless of evolutionary stage and this is precisely the kind of thing that trips me up. But for me, at this point, this is part of why I am leaning towards thinking very very beginning stages of 1st spiritual.
Blessings,
Ellen
Ellen,
I think what you bring up is very interesting - that you feel as if the final stage of individuated would be repetition for you. If you had done it before and you are done with it, then it could seem pointless - "what for?"
I have to go and look at your chart (can't see it from here) - is pluto and/or mars retrograde?
It looks like pluto, uranus, and mercury are all retrograde.
Very interesting what you've said Ellen, and it's this kind of elucidation that really helps pinpoint EA stage. A few thoughts popped up regarding your reply, but I'll wait till you've responded to my previous post before discussing them. Upasika
Quote from: bluesky on Jul 29, 2010, 04:28 PM
Ellen,
I think what you bring up is very interesting - that you feel as if the final stage of individuated would be repetition for you. If you had done it before and you are done with it, then it could seem pointless - "what for?"
Yes, good point re: "what for?" For me it feels like there is familiarity with 3rd ind, and thus a pull there, but that in this life there is something else for me to do and that if I go along with the pull, I'll be thwarting the evolutionary intent of this lifetime. Of course it could be that I'm wrong. That in fact it IS about 3rd ind and that the "resistance" to the pull has to do with hard to pin down self-worth issues. But I don't think this is the case. I definitely DO struggle with self-esteem issues. But to me those seem to be a direct result of 1) being gay and 2) what I'm used to (3rd Ind) not making sense and thus not having a clear, secure path to follow in this life...
I have to go and look at your chart (can't see it from here) - is pluto and/or mars retrograde?
It looks like pluto, uranus, and mercury are all retrograde.
Hi Bluesky,
This is correct. Pluto/Uranus/Mercury all retrograde.
Ellen
Hi Upasika,
Here are my responses. There is quite a rambunctious puppy in the house, so if my thoughts seem a little scrambled, that is partly why. They're also scrambled simply because these are such tricky things to try to articulate. I put my answers in quotation marks. I should have thought to capitalize to make my answers easier to see, but I didn't think of that at the time. Hopefully next time I do this cut/paste from email, I will remember that.
Anyway, thank you a million for your analysis. I hope my replies make sense and I will be interested to hear what you and others have to say.
Peace,
Ellen
PS looks like I have to do this in a couple of posts.
Hi Ellen,
I've been pretty sick for the last while, but ocasionally pop onto the board for a quick read. And I've always been interested in us completing your thread here so its great it hasn't just faded out as it looked it might. Very interesting stuff from everyone, and your responses to them. I felt to add to what the others have said with some additional comments, but dont have enough energy available to analyse things comprehensively or put them in a cohesive order, its more a bunch of ideas....
Looking at your chart you seem to have a lot of family stuff going on (SN in 4th conj Sun, Mars & Merc), and a gender switch in recent lives. Mars in Capricorn indicates a lot of repression of your basic instincts in past lives from too much desire (or forced need) to subjugate yourself to authorities and please/satisfy others, at the expense of yourself.
"I think probably both desire and need. Desire from the perspective of a personality that seems to be used to a master/apprentice-type relationship (this is something I have been starting to tune into lately as I work through my confusion as to how this world works, ie, definitely not master/apprentice). Need from the perspective of the hiding signatures in the chart, probably due to the matriarchal connection you mention later on in your post."
As well as being involved through it's conj to the SN, Mars also rules your skipped steps (Jupiter) indicating this has contributed majorly to those skipped steps, and family stuff may be central to what the skipped steps are actually about.
"Relying too much on family? And this perhaps due to insecurities that result from the hiding signatures in the chart - having to follow the rules of the family to ensure safety...? This would suggest a suppression of the Mars need to step into the unknown to discover "Who am I? Or perhap Mars being channeled more into a strategy/tactics of survival emphasis that Mars in Cap might suggest. In the 4th, the focus would be emotional/ego survival." So this need (discovering "Who am I" then possibly becomes pronounced with Jupiter in Aries...? And Jupiter itself ruling the 4th... And all this coming about through relationship - the fundamental realization that I'm gay (Jupiter in a waning inconjunct to Uranus) and the very basic needs that arise from that and the consequent upheaval that results from this in terms of my basic security re: family - the comfort of being hidden and safe... With the Moon in the 8th, emotion/ego are going to be challenged to grow beyond comfort levels. Then Saturn/Aq/5th sq. Moon - their seems to be an endless and constantly confirming trail here..."
In itself Jupiter in Aries is a strong and expanded sense of self/individuality that could easily be very self centered. It seems to me then that "individualising" itself might be your skipped step, brought about by all the pandering to/acquiesing of authorities instead of following your truth in your relationships (Jup in 7th). With Saturn (ruler of your SN) in the 5th, the "authorities" could well have been your father (at the time) in past lives, and certainly in this life it sounds like your current father represents an authority you have had to submit to a great deal.
"Yes. I agree with this - especially with regard for this life. I definitely feel that there are past life connections with my family, but I don't have enough sense of this to comment from an inner awareness/knowing about the past life dynamics, though I am just starting, I think, to get some impressions (since they're so new, I will hold off on sharing any of them until I feel more sure/certain about them). There is definitely the dynamic of not being recognized and resistance to "seeing" me (and this is simply a family dynamic, ie not specific to me). But I definitely feel that this is a dynamic I am cueing into in this lifetime and really beginning to see the limitations of it and wanted to step out of that dynamic and agreement. So, correspondingly, I am seeing the value/importance of individualizing in and of itself but also, and for me I think especially, in terms of attracting the right relationships..."
Aquarius via Uranus rules the individualising process in general and you have Saturn in Aquarius indicating a possible blockage with the process,
"And also Pluto in the 12th conjunct Uranus so enormous fear of stepping off into the unknown, which is what the individualizing process is for me."
and also in finding your real creative self expression (Saturn in 5th), which will not be resolved by reliance on outside help, it must be resolved by the efforts you make with "your own hands" ... this is the internalising nature of Saturn's pain & limitation, and sense of inadequacy (and Saturn = "hard work") ... but then that growth will be well and truly yours and the mastery attained will never be dependent on anyone else for it's actualisation or sustainment.
"An interesting note about this with regard to Saturn/Moon sq that I am just discovering - that I have known intellectually but haven't gotten in a meaningful way - and that is that part of the process involves finding a sense of comfort in the discomfort/insecurity. In other words, understanding that that is part of the process and a necessary step. I'm not talking here of being a masochist. But of the natural ebbs and flows of one's development, and that at times you just don't know. This probably ties into the Virgoan perfectionist difficulties - so finding comfort/security at those times when I'm feeling less than apt at what I'm doing, thus allowing me to get to the other side of 'that growth [being] well and truly [mine]."
Saturn in Aquarius also indicates a source of trauma and being in the 5th possibly points to father issues again. While in your childhood you loved your time with your family, this was maybe because you have invested in family situations a great deal in the past (4th house SN and other energies) at the expense of your individuality, and you just orientated there again starting out this life. But your need is to move away from that for good and establish yourself on your own terms (NN 10th, Saturn in Aquarius in 5th, Jupiter in Aries square 4th), but you've always resisted this => leading to skipped steps.
"I think this is right on."
Mars in Capricorn shows deep buried resentment and anger at authorities and given its conj to SN and square to Jupiter could almost alone account for most of your anger in this life, whether you were in the individualising stage or not, especially as that aspect looks to be a relive one. But my feeling is that you are still in the 3rd individualising stage and that some of the anger you have felt in this life is the last echoes of 2nd individated anger being exhausted from your system. It's been especially potent in this life because of the skipped steps being brought into full focus this life creating a great confusion and frustration within - that you have also projected without. But now it seems its burnt itself out a lot and you are coming to feel yourself as relatively more calm with a desire to channel the anger constructively into positive expressions.
"I agree with everything here except, per my prior post, I'm not so sure about 3rd ind."
Your gayness to me is possibly just a natural condition due to the recent gender switch not being fully integrated yet,
"I think it has also been an instigator of evolutionary development. I believe strongly that had I not been gay in this lifetime, I would not have questioned/rebelled against the family and social norms in which I was raised. Or if I did question them, I would not have pursued the answers to those questions as I have done in this lifetime. So I think it - my being gay - has been a huge evolutionary catalyst."
because of all the above acting as a confusing distraction to knowing yourself better: just navigating family and society issues concerning it to arrive at the realisation yourself about it has taken a great chunk of your life.
"Yes. And forced a lot of development. The whole issue with career, though, does seem to have come about due to the energy put into this whole aspect/dynamic of my life. So the NN in Cancer in the 10th could simply be indicating the need to be comfortable with/secure within myself within the context of society - regardless of my difference. Career actualization may not come about... but the stage will be set."
Also Mars in Capricorn will readily adopt a double life as a defense strategy so you have no doubt had to maintain two distinct sets of people in your life - those you trust and those you don't,
Mars is also in a waxing sextile to Neptune. So I would say that there has always been HUGE confusion for me with regard to the issue of trust (Neptune in Scorpio). I would say that I am only now getting to the point of recognizing the difference between trustworthy and untrustworthy. This MB community is helping me a ton with that in terms of learning to discriminate. When you've never experienced trustworthiness, it is hard to know the difference..."
feeding those you don't all sorts of red herrings as to your actual sexual orientation, even if they weren't actually intrinsically judgemental of gay people. This would have further exacberated your difficulty in resting easy in your own skin re this issue, naturally and at all times.
"This analysis is right on. Though I do not know of anyone in my childhood who, at the time, was not intrinsically judgemental of gay people. That was simply the culture. Fortunately, many of us have grown in this regard."
With Pluto in the 12th, your interest in the spiritual is not new. Pluto's SN is in the 4th indicating your spiritual interest may have originated out of (or as a reaction to) family situations,
"Absolutely. So family dynamics themselves have also been a huge evolutionary catalyst for me in this lifetime."
and it's ruler, Saturn, is in Aquarius in the 5th conj the SN of Neptune and squaring Moon and Neptune. Looks like you have also been involved with the matriarchy as an authority within it, but had to hide this side of yourself in more recent lives,
"This is something that I am starting to feel is true, though it is coming as a surprise. I think I always felt rejected in some way by the matriarchy, perhaps because for many lifetimes I adopted patriarchal culture as a means of security and perhaps even came to believe in the patriarchy....?"
basically giving away your truth and living according to patriarchal falsehoods. This has then brought you in this life to actually choose a very conventional and authoritan family to be born into, a complete contradiction to what you sense in your being, with a resulting confusion regarding just who you actually were. And this also indicates that your spiritual interest has been arrested for quite a long time (reflected by Pluto in your 12th opp Chiron in 6th).
"Very insightful."
But now, due to the very strong focus on your skipped steps in this life (Jup square Nodes/Mars/Sun - with the Sun also square Ascendant, assuming your time is good) it's as if you are awakening from a slumber and finally tuning into yourself on your own terms. And as you do so your interest in spirituality is also awakening again.
"I think this 'feels' right in terms of an explanation/analysis."
It may take more time for your life to unfold to really see the significance of your spiritual interest, as skipped steps and hiding signatures can obscure the essential reality so much. But for now it seems to me you may likely be a 3rd individuated soul who is finding their own feet after a very long time of denial and repression, and with it a renewed interest in the Divine. Everything you say to me points to the clear need to identify some core talents you have that you can use to develop your sense of self further
"I am not sure the reason for the need to find something is for the purpose of developing myself further. I think it has more to do with simple survival needs and the desire to occupy myself in my life with something that I enjoy and that I feel offers something useful to others - helps people in some practical way. If money were not a need in this lifetime, I would be more than happy to spend my life learning various subjects/disciplines/practices of interest. I would perhaps be a perpetual, full time student of some sort. Unfortunately, reality demands something else. So then the question becomes, OK, I like this and this in terms of learning and growth for myself, but do I like it in terms of work/service to others...? Is it really something that I can offer others and would I enjoy spending my days doing it? To me this whole dilemma, when I really look at it, seems to be a struggle with ego and that part of what is happening is a recognition of this and the beginning of questioning this and the beginning of realizing I need to orient differently. Another way of saying this is: I think I am the doer. I am needing to learn/understand that I am not."
(reflected for example by Venus, ruler of 2nd being in 5th), which can also serve the purpose of integrating you into society on your own terms, and which will also stabilise you (your sense of identity) at a very core level. Even if these talents are in the "spiritual" field my feeling is that your need is to complete the individualising process,
Yes, to the extent that completing the individualizing process means feeling emotionally safe/secure within myself despite my difference and being able to proceed with inner strength/authority, I agree."
and you would simply be doing that in following those spiritual interests (Uranus in the 12th).
"I am not sure. And I am not sure if I am understanding fully the subtleties of the individualizing process. For me, the spiritual path does not feel like a way to discover my uniqueness or difference. It is rather a way for me to discover my connection with God/dess and to begin to engage in regular practice that strengthens that connection."
Your Pluto in the 12th represents the need to take the plunge in doing this. Chiron in the 6th is opp Pluto and Uranus in the 12th, indicating much resistance to doing so for fear of more persecution, but it's also trining Nep and NN and the likelihood that any steps you take in this direction, no matter how small, will work out much better than your fears would have you believe.
"Interesting insight. I would say that generally speaking my fears have not played out. That while people have not necessarily liked my direction, they have surprisingly and somewhat magically simply allowed me to proceed, with some bumps of course..."
The bottom line however is your 4th house (Jup applying to SN in 4th), so that's where you must keep a constant focus in order to keep everything moving progressively forward - processing feelings and emotions by yourself, being present to and honoring your shifting emotional realities as they occur, learning to love and appreciate yourself whether others do or not, being vulnerable without concern for how that makes you look in the eyes of others or whether they will exploit you.
"Yes. This is EXACTLY right."
And finding something meaningful you can do in the community you live in/society for work - in your case as a (provisional) 3rd individuated this would have to not only be of value to those for whom you are doing it, it needs to be something you genuinely enjoy to do yourself.
"This is an interesting statement. And my own statements about wanting to enjoy what I do certainly suggest 3rd Ind. But I cannot help but wonder if that is residual and the fact that it hasn't worked out that way is in fact a "message" to move on. Indeed, I am beginning to feel weary of this quest for what I enjoy. It is as though I have always believed that I am somehow a failure if I don't find that. And now I am beginning to 'wake up' to the reality that it means no such thing. It is simply an opportunity to begin to ask the question, ok, this is who I am and there is nothing wrong with that, so what is it that you wish to do through me?"
I know you feel this is a huge challenge ! But it always is for everyone in 3rd individuated a) identifying what they love to do, and b) finding ways to do that for a living.
"Reading this, it is as though I am realizing that that in fact has been the problem. That HAS been what I've been trying to figure out. But it's as though it's not really relevant anymore. Somehow the focus seems wrong."
This is THE challenge (in one sense) of 3rd individuated as I understand it, it is the actual process of doing this that contributes to the growth to the soul at this EA stage. And from my observation, it often seems just a huge dream that what a 3rd individuated soul may love to do, is quietly very passionate about, could ever be their full time job that they make a living out of. Well, with Virgo ASC, and Chiron in the 6th opp Pluto/Uranus you are well eqipped to take that "dream" or passion, and via small steps, one after the other, start anyway, even if on a hobby basis.
"One thing I would note here is that Pluto/12th indicates endless dreams/illusions that you follow passionately, all the while knowing there is something missing. I have certainly had many ideas and directions (and mostly just in the imagination/thinking phases, ie, never really making it to reality) that I have felt passionate about, but there has definitely been the sense of emptiness, that something is missing - that I'm just fooling myself and everyone else. Makes me think that part of the intention of this lifetime is in fact to exhaust this 3rd ind focus - to be forced to search for a different focus/meaning/orientation. My current pursuit (personal trainer) seems less about a dream I have for me, and more about a desire to do this piece of work, to see what is there and finally reconcile it, similar to what I did when I revisited the Catholic Church. It's about revisiting my past so that I can really see the dynamics of this world in which I was immersed as a child and really understand them and release them. But it's also a desire to learn this piece that I am - to acknowledge it - and to set myself up in some way. It feels 'right' to do this, but it is not about any idea I have of being happy/fulfilled for myself. If God wants to use me, well then I'll be available. It is very difficult though. I almost dropped out this week. But somehow it seems that I should continue even though I have no clue how it will work out. There is a part of me that trusts that if God can use me/my skills/who I am, then that is enough. Though there is still another part of me that would rather really really enjoy what I'm doing - to feel that I've really found the right thing."
Ellen,
Am reading through your feedback now. Capitalization is very difficult to read. Rather, I would suggest you try "bold" or another colour?
Once you've copied your message from email onto a new post here, all you need to do is highlight your paragraph and choose "bold" or some other distinguishing feature. Please let me know if you need any assistance. Thanks!
I'm attaching your chart again for ease of reference.
Quote from: Linda on Jul 30, 2010, 05:07 PM
Ellen,
Am reading through your feedback now. Capitalization is very difficult to read. Rather, I would suggest you try "bold" or another colour?
Once you've copied your message from email onto a new post here, all you need to do is highlight your paragraph and choose "bold" or some other distinguishing feature. Please let me know if you need any assistance. Thanks!
I'm attaching your chart again for ease of reference.
Hi Linda,
Thanks for the advice. In the past I recall not being able to highlight specific text beyond a certain point (the same point as when you can't see what you're typing anymore when you're actually typing). Once I got past that point, if I remember correctly, I could only highlight everything or nothing... I definitely seem not to have the knack for these important details... Anything you can share would be appreciated.
Ellen
Try this:
Start highlighting your text by clicking the mouse at the beginning of the paragraph. Press the Shift key on your keyboard and, while keeping it down, press the Right Arrow on your keyboard. This will start the Highlighting process (note: the down arrow key can be used too). Keep tapping the Right Arrow key until you've highlighted what you need. This may or may not take you beyond that point you mentioned at the bottom of your screen. Once highlighted, then press Bold on the menu.
Alternatively, keep highlighting the portion of text that you can see on the screen and Bold it.
Are you aware of the Scroll Bar on the right hand side of your screen?
(http://i853.photobucket.com/albums/ab96/lindatjonson/Highlightinginstructions-3.gif)
Please let me know if this has solved the problem.
Really enjoyed your response Ellen. I'll have time to get back to you tomorrow.
Quote from: Linda on Jul 30, 2010, 09:09 PM
Try this:
Start highlighting your text by clicking the mouse at the beginning of the paragraph. Press the Shift key on your keyboard and, while keeping it down, press the Right Arrow on your keyboard. This will start the Highlighting process (note: the down arrow key can be used too). Keep tapping the Right Arrow key until you've highlighted what you need. This may or may not take you beyond that point you mentioned at the bottom of your screen. Once highlighted, then press Bold on the menu.
Alternatively, keep highlighting the portion of text that you can see on the screen and Bold it.
Are you aware of the Scroll Bar on the right hand side of your screen?
(http://i853.photobucket.com/albums/ab96/lindatjonson/Highlightinginstructions-3.gif)
Please let me know if this has solved the problem.
Hi Linda,
Thanks a million. I'll try the shift key and right arrow. I am aware of the scroll bar. The issue, as I remmeber it, had to do with once getting to the point I wanted to highlight, not being able to because the screen would jump back up and not allow me to stay at that point...... grrrr!
Ellen
Hi Ellen,
Ellen said: "If money were not a need in this lifetime, I would be more than happy to spend my life learning various subjects/disciplines/practices of interest. I would perhaps be a perpetual, full time student of some sort. Unfortunately, reality demands something else."
From the above feedback to Upasika, I think the "reality" you refer to is a pattern of past societal/parental conditioning (Saturn/the father) reflecting the "shoulds" of life. Since Capricorn correlates to "judgment" and in the 4th therefore "self-judgment," the lesson of the skipped steps is to be truthful (Jupiter) to your self (Aries), stop judging yourself (Cap), and give yourself the freedom (Jupiter) to follow new paths and directions (Aries) such as becoming a student or teacher (Jupiter/Mercury) or seeking teacher/student relationships (Venus rules 9th). Fulfilling the skipped steps in this way will resolve the issue of self-image and emotional self-security (4th) that needs to be reformulated.
With your Virgo Ascendant and ruler Mercury conjunct the South Node and Mars, here is the direction that you are seeking: to become a student. Since Mercury is conjunct Mars, you need to find the courage to pursue this new path or paths (teacher/student), and you will have a multiplicity of choices and teachers/disciplines to choose from (Jupiter/Aries 7th).
I wonder if the skipped steps could have something to do with a relationship to a spiritual teacher in the past? Since Jupiter rules your 4th, perhaps you had actually been a teacher yourself and may have something to resolve along those lines. Saturn, ruler of Sun/Mars/Mercury/SN, is saying that "it is okay" to be yourself, to be creative, and that work can be a joyful expression too. You need to liberate and transform the harsh Saturnian voice within yourself (4th) and allow yourself the freedom to study with a teacher or a discipline that you are naturally attracted to (Venus rules 9th).
In my opinion, in early first stage spiritual, you are feeling small, and since you can still hear the old authoritarian voice "be something" (Saturn/Aquarius) you are struggling to liberate yourself through your own efforts. The skipped steps have to do with the cardinal energies. I'm going to be bold now and say that the skipped steps relate to the beginning of 1st stage spiritual! (Virgo Asc) - and not to an earlier stage. That you are now taking full responsibility for the choices you make in the next step along the spiritual path. That this responsibility now lies completely with you, and not an authority (Cap/father) or spiritual teacher to make that choice for you (Jupiter in the 7th).
You've simply stated your true desire:
"If money were not a need in this lifetime, I would be more than happy to spend my life learning various subjects/disciplines/practices of interest. I would perhaps be a perpetual, full time student of some sort. Unfortunately, reality demands something else."
Since material values are not going to be important in the 1st stage spiritual, you could find part-time work and see it "truthfully" for what it is: working for survival purposes, which is enabling you the freedom to pursue your true desire to study various subjects or teach. Interestingly, Mercury (student) rules your 6th house and also the MC (teacher). Furthermore, with Neptune in the 2nd house, you can rely on the universe to supply your material needs.
The Moon/Taurus (facilitator of the NN) is necessarily placed in the 8th house so as to enable you to metamorphose the old vision, the old self-concept. This will allow you to move forward, to embrace the NN/Cancer (to reformulate your self-image and express it in the world). You will be more fluid and empathetic and forgiving of your own self, especially where social role is concerned. The Cancer 10th caring and nurturing social role will work perfectly with your 1st stage spiritual status.
Thanks for allowing me and others to practise. Hope the above is not too far-fetched and rings true! I'm enjoying this more and more, it's exciting, especially since I feel we're getting quite close to discovering your true evolutionary condition.
Hi Ellen,
I want to add to what Linda was saying,
Quote"If money were not a need in this lifetime, I would be more than happy to spend my life learning various subjects/disciplines/practices of interest. I would perhaps be a perpetual, full time student of some sort. Unfortunately, reality demands something else."
To me that statement supports the possibility that you are first stage spiritual even more.
In the end there is not a conflict between your spiritual path and making money. That's the actual reality.
The key is finding work that will allow you to devote yourself to the appropriate forms of service. Your mind's scope of possibilities are narrow based on lifetimes of self sacrifice, persecution for being who you were, and immense emotional repression. However you have so much to offer. The key seems to be to not hold back, but to show up and start ea counseling/leading groups/working with women/writing etc... whatever the forms are (all Jupiter in Aries square nodes, Cancer in 10, with Moon in 8 opposing Neptune 2 with Taurus/Scorpio- as facilitator for Pluto polarity in Pisces in the 6) You will be supported financially by way of your service- the key is to stick to the truth of your being and be willing to let go of the way you think it should look. What can you offer this world? There are many answers here.
Ari Moshe
Hi Ellen,
Well we seem to be narrowing things down a lot more. After reading and contemplating on your last post I also thought that you may not be 3rd individuted (although I haven't ruled it out outright). But on the face of it, it certainly seems quite possible you're cusp 3rd indiv/1st spiritual or 1st spiritual. With the analysis of your chart that we and you have all done, the basic principles of it, and the skipped steps etc, have been outlined showing your general nature and life situation, and it's seems it's a matter of fine tuning now.
At the end of the day it all really depends on how accurate your own assessment of where you're coming from is. Especially regarding spiritual urges, interests and motivations. (I do feel you've been really open, up front on everything, fully sharing and as factual as possible ... so it's not in that sense that I'm saying this).
I'm no expert at all on EA stages, but it seems one thing is clear - and that is that you actually do need to develop your skills and talents, regardless of your stage. This is something Ari, Linda and I have stressed, and you also have said you feel thats the thing that's obvious to you as the current step. (And I also thought like Linda & Ari - writing/student/teacher??). But the issue it seems is motivation. Not feeling any interest in "moving society along", as you've "been there/done that". Maybe it was covered in previous posts that aren't available now, but I didn't ever recall anything that you've done that particularly stood out as representing that (unless you were referring to your nursing?, but that still didn't strike me as particularly 3rd individual orientated). Anyway, as I understand it, the effect a person has on society in 3rd individuated is not really a primary motivation. The primary motivation is fruiting one's individuality, developing one's potential as much as one can in a positive way, and the beneficial effect this has on society is almost a side effect. To me a 3rd individual person has cut the bonds with society once and for all, they know they're "doing their thing" but because they also realise that everyone makes up society they accept that they will end up contributing to it via their personal efforts anyway ... it's just they've seen through reacting to it, and instead just get on with things in a positive fashion.
However you seem pretty resolute that you've done all you can for yourself on your own, and now feel "you" as the doer is itself your greatest limitation. As Linda and Ari have noted, this implies the exhaustion of 3rd individuated desires has occurred. And I agree (assuming you've assessed it accurately). But to me it doesn't automatically mean you're in 1st spiritual. Her post is gone so I can't quote it directly, but from memory I think Adina pointed out that this realisation occurs as 3rd individuated is nearing the end, and opens the soul up to what the possibilities might be beyond this ... and the real spiritual search starts (or something similar to this). Not gathering information, knowledge etc, as this may already have been taking place to a greater or lesser degree, but a real gut wrenching quest - similar to the move from 3rd consensus to 1st individuated (so movingly described by Steve a while ago) - the long process of surrendering oneself is akin to consciously dying, and that's not at all natural, let alone attractive, unless it really is the actual next step. Adina was saying it's this very dilemna that creates the internal upheavel that will propel the soul into the next stage, 1st spiritual.
So to me, it's a question of just how far along this track you actually are? Are you at the very end of 3rd individuated, in a life where facing this dilemna is relatively new? or in the middle of the transition (with lots of alternating pulls) and therefore on the cusp of 3rd individuated/1st spiritual? or actually into the relative clarity of 1st spiritual itself ... that there really is no other reality, and therefore no other question/option ... than the journey of surrendering all desires as they arise to the best of your ability except the single desire to merge with whatever it is (however it's called - God/dess, Source, Divine etc), that permeates everything everywhere. In other words, as Linda asked you ... is this really your reality?
With the skipped steps, and nodal rulers in hard aspect to Neptune, and Plu/Ura in 12th ... for me it's not clear whether you're ending up 3rd individuated, on the cusp, or you're into beginning of 1st spiritual.
Also as Linda pointed out, you've got a few grunty transits going on at the moment: transitting Pluto hitting both natal Sun and Moon (and soon coming up to hit natal Saturn, then the SN), transiting Neptune on 6th house cusp, transiting nodal axis on your natal nodal axis and hitting natal Jupiter, Chiron & Uranus, as well as transiting Mars, Jupiter & Saturn all hitting natal Neptune. No wonder things are cooking, and maybe its a bit confusing right now too? But what do you yourself feel Ellen - do you feel clearly you're into 1st spiritual proper?
Upasika
Hi Ellen,
Well we seem to be narrowing things down a lot more. After reading and contemplating on your last post I also thought that you may not be 3rd individuted (although I haven't ruled it out outright). But on the face of it, it certainly seems quite possible you're cusp 3rd indiv/1st spiritual or 1st spiritual. With the analysis of your chart that we and you have all done, the basic principles of it, and the skipped steps etc, have been outlined showing your general nature and life situation, and it's seems it's a matter of fine tuning now.
At the end of the day it all really depends on how accurate your own assessment of where you're coming from is. Especially regarding spiritual urges, interests and motivations. (I do feel you've been really open, up front on everything, fully sharing and as factual as possible ... so it's not in that sense that I'm saying this).
"I definitely agree with this. Despite how upfront and honest I have tried to be, there is always the question of what I am unaware of with regard to my own dynamics and motivations. There is also the question with regard to the fundamental limitation I have of undestanding the EA stages - the learning of which is the point of this thread..."
I'm no expert at all on EA stages, but it seems one thing is clear - and that is that you actually do need to develop your skills and talents, regardless of your stage. This is something Ari, Linda and I have stressed, and you also have said you feel thats the thing that's obvious to you as the current step. (And I also thought like Linda & Ari - writing/student/teacher??). But the issue it seems is motivation. Not feeling any interest in "moving society along", as you've "been there/done that". Maybe it was covered in previous posts that aren't available now, but I didn't ever recall anything that you've done that particularly stood out as representing that (unless you were referring to your nursing?, but that still didn't strike me as particularly 3rd individual orientated).
"The 'been there/done that' feeling, to me, seems to be coming from the perspective of prior lives, not this life. So, what I'm sensing, as I look over my current life, is that, precisely because in prior lives I have 'done that' (ie, developed talents/3rd ind) in prior lives (or a prior life), in this life that has not worked because that motivation no longer works.... I suppose, frankly, it could be argued that, indeed, I have NOT 'done that' in prior lives and that in fact, THAT is the gap/abyss I am needing to face in this life. But when I look over my life and my efforts (life, really, has not supported the development of my talents) and my current situation, it seems as though NOT finding that particular talent or whatever and developing it has in fact been part of the evolutionary impetus that has moved me towards what seems to me a 1st spiritual kind of orientation. Now, having read your post, I think you are right on to say that it is still to be determined exactly where I am - end of 3rd ind, somewhere in the cusp, or 1st spiritual itself. I also want to point out the grand trines in my chart (Pluto/Moon/Mercury-Mars and Neptune/NN/Chiron) and, while I'm not sure this is an EA perspective, I think it is common astrological understanding that grand trines can indicate a failure to develop the talents indicated by the trines simply because encountering obstacles proves too difficult. So that becomes an important question: what's going on...? As I said, as I consider my life, and especially the developments over the last 1/2 year-year, my sense is that all of these factors have in fact contributed to an evolutionary movement toward 1st spiritual... the frustrations with not fully developing my obvious talents (and no support to do so) and not finding others to develop (at least nothing to be enthusiastic about) - these experiences have driven me, continuously in my life, to rebel, to ask questions and to seek answers, all of which seem to be leading me to a place of very much wanting to orient my life in a completely new way - to rely on God, to develop that relationship. And when I do that, I know that I don't have to worry - I know that God is there. But this is all very new and I am certainly at only the very early stages of developing a consistent practice. And, besides this EA community, I have not found a spiritual community, though I continue to look...."
Anyway, as I understand it, the effect a person has on society in 3rd individuated is not really a primary motivation. The primary motivation is fruiting one's individuality, developing one's potential as much as one can in a positive way, and the beneficial effect this has on society is almost a side effect.
"The question I have here is, for what purpose are they developing/fruiting their individuality as much as they can/developing their potential? Is it for themselves? Is there someone or something that they are serving? Is it simply their own development? I need to better understand the motivation of the 3rd Ind person as opposed to 1st spiritual, for example.. It seems to me that the 1st spiritual person, precisely because they've already moved through 3rd Ind (assuming no skipped steps) would ALSO be fully individuated and developing her/his particular talents. But the motivation/desire would be different.. Yes?"
To me a 3rd individual person has cut the bonds with society once and for all, they know they're "doing their thing" but because they also realise that everyone makes up society they accept that they will end up contributing to it via their personal efforts anyway ... it's just they've seen through reacting to it, and instead just get on with things in a positive fashion.
However you seem pretty resolute that you've done all you can for yourself on your own, and now feel "you" as the doer is itself your greatest limitation. As Linda and Ari have noted, this implies the exhaustion of 3rd individuated desires has occurred. And I agree (assuming you've assessed it accurately). But to me it doesn't automatically mean you're in 1st spiritual. Her post is gone so I can't quote it directly, but from memory I think Adina pointed out that this realisation occurs as 3rd individuated is nearing the end, and opens the soul up to what the possibilities might be beyond this ... and the real spiritual search starts (or something similar to this). Not gathering information, knowledge etc, as this may already have been taking place to a greater or lesser degree, but a real gut wrenching quest - similar to the move from 3rd consensus to 1st individuated (so movingly described by Steve a while ago) - the long process of surrendering oneself is akin to consciously dying, and that's not at all natural, let alone attractive, unless it really is the actual next step. Adina was saying it's this very dilemna that creates the internal upheavel that will propel the soul into the next stage, 1st spiritual.
"Yes. I wonder if I am not perhaps in the gap, or just making my way to the other side of the gap....? To me this is tricky to work out... As I understand it, it can take many, many lives to move through a gap. So how does one determine such a thing as where one is in a gap/whether one has moved into a new stage...?"
So to me, it's a question of just how far along this track you actually are? Are you at the very end of 3rd individuated, in a life where facing this dilemna is relatively new? or in the middle of the transition (with lots of alternating pulls) and therefore on the cusp of 3rd individuated/1st spiritual? or actually into the relative clarity of 1st spiritual itself ... that there really is no other reality, and therefore no other question/option ... than the journey of surrendering all desires as they arise to the best of your ability except the single desire to merge with whatever it is (however it's called - God/dess, Source, Divine etc), that permeates everything everywhere. In other words, as Linda asked you ... is this really your reality?
"Well, I am wondering what others think about this. I think it is BECOMING my reality - that it is IN PROCESS. That it is more than just a wish or a whim or an idea. But I would say the training wheels are definitely on. And I would say that I've only just begun attempting to learn how to ride the bike and that certainly there hasn't been 'realization/actualization', but perhaps some glimmers and then maybe some backing off. But a desire to continue, if not a for sure path yet in terms of hooking up with a spiritual community and following their particular way. As I've said in the past, I am receiving and putting into practice, at my own pace, the SRF teachings. But I have not felt drawn to join an actual community of people practicing those teachings. One step at a time, I guess."
With the skipped steps, and nodal rulers in hard aspect to Neptune, and Plu/Ura in 12th ... for me it's not clear whether you're ending up 3rd individuated, on the cusp, or you're into beginning of 1st spiritual.
"Does anyone have any ideas about this?"
Also as Linda pointed out, you've got a few grunty transits going on at the moment: transitting Pluto hitting both natal Sun and Moon (and soon coming up to hit natal Saturn, then the SN), transiting Neptune on 6th house cusp, transiting nodal axis on your natal nodal axis and hitting natal Jupiter, Chiron & Uranus, as well as transiting Mars, Jupiter & Saturn all hitting natal Neptune. No wonder things are cooking, and maybe its a bit confusing right now too? But what do you yourself feel Ellen - do you feel clearly you're into 1st spiritual proper?
"I actually do. However, I feel that what you have presented re: anywhere from end of 3rd ind through 1st spiritual needs to be more fully explored."
Upasika
Linda,
The shift/arrow key worked PERFECTLY.... Thank you!!
Quote from: Ellen on Aug 01, 2010, 07:20 PM
Upasika
Anyway, as I understand it, the effect a person has on society in 3rd individuated is not really a primary motivation. The primary motivation is fruiting one's individuality, developing one's potential as much as one can in a positive way, and the beneficial effect this has on society is almost a side effect.
Ellen
"The question I have here is, for what purpose are they developing/fruiting their individuality as much as they can/developing their potential? Is it for themselves? Is there someone or something that they are serving? Is it simply their own development? I need to better understand the motivation of the 3rd Ind person as opposed to 1st spiritual, for example.. It seems to me that the 1st spiritual person, precisely because they've already moved through 3rd Ind (assuming no skipped steps) would ALSO be fully individuated and developing her/his particular talents. But the motivation/desire would be different.. Yes?"
As I understand it ... the purpose for which they are developing their potential, fruiting their individuality, is because they find that fulfilling. It is a natural thing because the nature of their separating desires is such that they feel good about life when they do this. It is for themselves, although they may or may not think of it in these terms, it's just what they feel drawn to do ... to develop their talents, their skills, their gifts because that's what their desires are about. It gives them a sense of purpose for their lives, and also allows them to integrate with everybody around them in a way that also feels meaningful and relevant.
To me, in the majority of cases, your description of the 1st spiritual person in relation to this is exactly right. But yes, their motivation has become very different. Whereas a 3rd individuated enjoys being the creator of his/her creations, a 1st spiritual soul has had their fill of that kind of enjoyment, and now it doesn't fulfill any more. What fulfills them is to be nothing more than a vessel, a channel for something beyond them to flow through them into manifestation. For them this is a much more meaningful experience than anything they could manage to do themselves. And that's why they feel so small ... because life still happens, and sometimes magically so, yet they feel they have had very little part in making it happen. Yet they may be highly skilled with very developed talents. Having "been there and done that" in 3rd individuated, if something needs to be developed, or upskilled, they will just go and do that. Usually it will not be hard for them to do it, if they feel directed by Source to go and do it, it will be done very cheerfully and efficiently (in true Virgo style). They will not be thinking that the thing they have done, in and of itself, is particularly special as such, or that they were special for being able to do it (but they might think that having been "chosen" to do it was something special). Their fulfillment is quite different.
Quote from: Ellen on Aug 01, 2010, 07:20 PM
"Yes. I wonder if I am not perhaps in the gap, or just making my way to the other side of the gap....? To me this is tricky to work out... As I understand it, it can take many, many lives to move through a gap. So how does one determine such a thing as where one is in a gap/whether one has moved into a new stage...?"
My feeling, from all that you have described about yourself, is that you could be in the gap. But of course those skipped steps and Neptune signatures could be muddying the water a bit here.
Thats why I feel your motivation is likely to be the deciding factor. It could be, as you wondered, that your skipped steps, related as they are to throwing off a great deal of repression and patriarchal conditioning, and expressing your truth - to yourself, in your family context, in your relationships and in your career, have all stalled your individualising process. The feeling you've done it in past lives needs to be clarified. You may have had many lives in 3rd individuated and indeed developed many skills and talents. Your trines and sextiles etc indicate that in many ways you have not had resistance to your evolutionary needs in the past. Where the resistance shows up is around Jupiter and to some extent Saturn. Perhaps you have always compromised the full individuation process by not really breaking free from all this conditioning to do what you truly always wanted to do, always caving in in the end to parental wishes about what you did. And now you need to have a life where you finally do the 3rd individuation thing,
but completely and fully on your own terms. Of course you would be feeling this is a real drag, to have to go through all this again, but maybe that's where the growth is going to come, by finally facing it and not avoiding it as you have for so many lives, and once and for all resolving these skipped steps. If this was the case you need to really step away from all sources of external limitation and make the effort to actualise your individuality. As you say, your sense of individuality is not strong, your self image and sense of self worth has been low in this life. And if your skipped steps are in fact all about "individualising itself", fully and totally on your own terms, then you'll be stuck forever until you actually do this. The very nature of individualising means to stand as an individual, on your own feet, and forge your own path in life. Maybe you've never really done this completely? ... too much reliance on the family for acceptance ...
However, another possibility is that you
have done 3rd individuated, and that the skipped steps are to do with hiding your spiritual truth, thus stalling in moving on from 3rd individuated into 1st spiritual. This could be reflected in your nodal rulers in hard aspect to Neptune (resistance), which is in Scorpio in the second (hiding there), and Pluto in the 12th opp Chiron in 6th (stalled on the clifftop with your spiritual flow arrested). Here the need in this lifetime would be to break away from all the repression and conditioning just the same, so that finally you can declare your truth as far as your spiritual interest is concerned, and be that truth, unwaveringly. Bluesky, Linda and Ari have all suggested this as your situation, and it could also be your reality.
My sense is that part of your skipped steps and their resolution, the very nature of Jupiter in Aries, is that you need to develop the capacity find the truth for yourself.
Instead of doing this you have been listening to all sorts of rubbish from your family (4th house), having career after career in the world (10th house), then tiring of this trying spiritual techniques (6th house) but when that became too close to the bone, and also threatened to consume you (12th house) you ran like a frightened rabbit back to the family. And you've been endlessly doing this circuit for a long time ... hence the skipped steps.
Of course along the way you've learnt a great deal about lots of different things, such that you feel you'd like to keep on learning and learning. And of course you could start teaching some of what you've learnt .. as pointed out by the others, you have certainly developed talent in both these areas. But none of this is the essential you, and you have expressed exactly that. If you factor in all you've said about how the trials and challenges of being gay, and not finding anything in life you truly want to do etc., has forced you to question everything and search for new answers, something that holds some kind of unique meaning for you, then perhaps the true nature of your skipped steps starts to make some kind of sense.
Thats why I feel maybe it's up to you to finally ferret out your actual stage. Adina was onto this a while back. We've narrowed it down to a small area, but you know your true motivations better than anyone else probably. Jupiter is intuition and perhaps you need to trust your intuition big time now. Ari felt so, and as he said, stop holding back ... Jupiter is expansion. Linda and Ari both felt you have a narrow idea of what reality can be stemming from past conditioning, and perhaps resolving your skipped steps by following your intuition (Jup), leading with your heart (4th), and just trusting (8th/12th) your gut instincts (Plu) is what will bring some inner authority and creative self expression into your life (Sat in 5th).
The only thing I can think to finally add is that skipped steps means a serious amount of avoiding has been going on for a long time, and so it's going to be a deeply engrained habit. You'd need to be careful that spirituality is not an avoidance of completing unfinished 3rd individuated evolutionary requirements (if indeed that was the case). As I understand it, in the bigger picture a key underlying purpose of 3rd individuated is to fully develop the sense of individuality/self within so that in the spiritual stage the contrast has been created and the let go is total. In the spiritual stage the self is offered up (surrendered) to the Divine. But you can't give what you don't have, can't let go of something that doesn't already exist. Unless the glory of one's individuality is experienced it's futility cannot be experienced either. And it's that real fultility that in the end drives the soul in search of the Source itself. That's why it's not possible to go straight from consensus to spiritual stage ... it just wouldn't have any meaning. Fully individualising oneself gives the spiritual stage relevance and meaning.
Quote from: Ellen on Aug 01, 2010, 07:20 PM
Upasika
So to me, it's a question of just how far along this track you actually are? Are you at the very end of 3rd individuated, in a life where facing this dilemna is relatively new? or in the middle of the transition (with lots of alternating pulls) and therefore on the cusp of 3rd individuated/1st spiritual? or actually into the relative clarity of 1st spiritual itself ... that there really is no other reality, and therefore no other question/option ... than the journey of surrendering all desires as they arise to the best of your ability except the single desire to merge with whatever it is (however it's called - God/dess, Source, Divine etc), that permeates everything everywhere. In other words, as Linda asked you ... is this really your reality?
Ellen
"Well, I am wondering what others think about this. I think it is BECOMING my reality - that it is IN PROCESS. That it is more than just a wish or a whim or an idea. But I would say the training wheels are definitely on. And I would say that I've only just begun attempting to learn how to ride the bike and that certainly there hasn't been 'realization/actualization', but perhaps some glimmers and then maybe some backing off. But a desire to continue, if not a for sure path yet in terms of hooking up with a spiritual community and following their particular way. As I've said in the past, I am receiving and putting into practice, at my own pace, the SRF teachings. But I have not felt drawn to join an actual community of people practicing those teachings. One step at a time, I guess."
It would seem that your interest in the spiritual is here to stay, in some shape or form. Once more clarity and certainty about your actual EA stage is attained, as Linda said, you'll be able to settle down into life from a more relaxed, focussed and productive perpsective. And then your spiritual practice may take roots somewhere and start to grow in a steady way.
I'm not any clearer what your stage is Ellen, but the subtle issues seem to be getting clearer. And thanks so much for putting yourself out like this, creating a really interesting discussion and great learning experience for us all. It's a blessing, and I really hope you doing this is of help to you too.
Upasika
Hi Upasika,
Thanks so much for your post. I'm quite busy for the next 2 days, but later in the week I should be able to respond in full. I can say right off that I related much more to the 1st spiritual descriptions than the 3rd ind w/ regard to motivations for developing/using one's talents. And I can also say that, if I could, I would very much want to devote my life to spiritual practice and learning. But I think that I have not reached that point in practical terms; that I need to gain more experience (spiritually-speaking) before that type of commitment would actually be fruitful. I'll leave it at that. Yours and everyone's feedback has helped me a ton and I feel I'm gaining clarity. And I am learning, too, about EA stages, generally.
Wishing you good health,
Ellen
Does anybody have their Pluto II book kicking around? I misplaced mine (I think it's in my storage locker) but in it, JWG went into the 3 stages (consensus, individuated, and spiritual) for each pluto placement in each house/sign. Granted, he was applying them to composite chart placements, but I recall finding them very useful for just looking at a chart.
South node in capricorn/4th house - what would be the issues with regard to individuated and spiritual?
Ellen, or anyone else, do you have this book handy? if you do, do you have the time to post key indicators for pluto in cap/4th house for these 2 states?
I guess I should add synthesis for the actual placement of pluto in virgo in the 12th for Ellen's chart...
Quote from: bluesky on Aug 04, 2010, 12:28 PM
Does anybody have their Pluto II book kicking around? I misplaced mine (I think it's in my storage locker) but in it, JWG went into the 3 stages (consensus, individuated, and spiritual) for each pluto placement in each house/sign. Granted, he was applying them to composite chart placements, but I recall finding them very useful for just looking at a chart.
South node in capricorn/4th house - what would be the issues with regard to individuated and spiritual?
Ellen, or anyone else, do you have this book handy? if you do, do you have the time to post key indicators for pluto in cap/4th house for these 2 states?
I guess I should add synthesis for the actual placement of pluto in virgo in the 12th for Ellen's chart...
Hi bluesky,
I should be able to do it this weekend, but not sooner - lots of studying to do...
Ellen
thanks Ellen, looking forward to it.
Hi Bluesky, Ellen
Mine is handy so I'll sketch out a summary of what Jeffrey says, in approximated key principle form and adapted from a composite to individual viewpoint:
Pluto in 4th/Cancer
Correlates to creating a tightly stuctured reality through which to feel safe and secure as a reaction to previous lifetimes where circumstances caused great emotional upheavals, which has led to deep insecurity in the soul. Now in this life, as a reaction, there is a great need to create security, and emotional control and manipulation may be employed to create this security.
Creating an insular environment produces internalisation and emotional compression which then can become stifling causing emotional eruptions. The purpose of these emotional cycles is to allow a penetration of the past causes that are the emotional basis of the fears, leading to emotional self knowledge. The intention is to create inner security and until this is achieved emotional needs will be projected onto others.
Individuated
Wanting to be close at all times to others and situations that represent emotional safety produces an emotional claustrophobia that results in confrontations. Because of being in the individuated state, the nature of which is to rebel against external authority in order to individualise from the consensus, these confrontations relate to being overly controlled or manipulated, or being overly controlling or manipulative. This can occur even when the confrontation is with someone who the individual loves deeply. Feelings of having been rejected or disdained by the parents in some way will have created displaced emotions creating a strong need to "nest" as an adult, and to try and heal themselves within the safety of that nest. There will be unresolved anger, and a need for sexual healing, both of which may be acted out in relationships to create emotional and soul renewal.
Spiritual
Being in the spiritual stage these unresolved emotions represent impurities that must progressively surface into consciousness to allow movement forward in spiritual reality. This can create great turmoil caused by cycles of time which are calm, peaceful and spiritualised followed by times where the unresolved emotions are coming to the surface in varying degrees of intensity in quite a childlike way. This cycle would be especially stimulated by the relationship dynamics involved with those close to the individual. The unresolved emotions stem from deep insecurities, yet being in the spirititual stage the individual is in the process of progressively disengaging from all external dependencies. This can create a fear of not being wanted by others which may then be projected. Dealing with this paradox involves correctly interpreting why this is occurring and realising that it is a natural consequence in spiritual development. In essence these emotions surface because there is a transference between the external home and the inner home of God/dess. At the highest level this is learning to trust God/dess as the ultimate parent.
*********
Is this what you were after Bluesky? That's all I've got time for myself now, but it's a start .... you might want to add to this Ellen.
blessings Upasika
Hi Upasika, yes that's exactly it and thanks for doing that. Although I realize now it's a lot to ask anyone to post a synopsis of those dynamics. I should try to find that book.
But what you have posted here throws into prominence the juxtaposition of south node capricorn in the 4th house - to me, this is one of those crazy-making paradoxes. Not to mention Ellen's pluto in virgo in the 12th house.
I hope I haven't thrown things off track here.
Bluesky, not sure if it's off track, or not. Given that skipped steps can cause a person to manifest situations, circumstances and behavior that represents an earlier stage or substage to their actual stage, when skipped steps are present it is necessary to examine the chart to see what the skipped steps are about as part of determining the EA stage. So we've been doing that, and as no chart factor stands alone from the rest of the chart, I guess we have to consider at the very least the whole karmic signature (Plu, PPP, Nodes & rulers), if not the whole chart, in doing that. So, it seems quite relevant to me.
Anyway, I think it's an excellent point you're making about the paraodoxes Ellen has with 4th/10th and 12th/6th themes packaged together in her Plu & Node house/sign placements. I think the general rule is: interpret the houses first as the most significant, then the signs, so that's a guide. But I too would be interested in what anyone thought about these paradoxes in Ellen's chart. Maybe it would add some additional valuable clues in fine tuning her substage.
A while back I asked Rad about paradoxical charts:
Question from: Linda
Is there a general rule of thumb that will make it easier to understand and interpret paradoxical charts, that is, a chart where house rulers are in the signs that are opposite to the natural rulers of those houses? In the attached chart, Pluto in Leo is in the 11th house, SN Cancer in the 10th, and NN Capricorn in the 4th.
Rad's reply:
The general rule of thumb is to help the person understand what the nature and causes are of the underlying paradoxes within them, and then to help them determine a way of resolving those paradoxes. Simple example in the chart you have provided: a deep, natural fear of loss and abandonment which has happened in many lives through misapplication of trust which, in turn, has caused them to emotionally and psychologically isolate themselves from others as a way of compensating for that, which in turn has caused them to feel very alone within the world, which then causes a deep need to connect with and/or be in at least one committed relationship of like mind, yet not knowing how to get there or make that happen because of the fears of abandonment, etc. A paradox. The resolution in this cause is to choose another who is not only of like mind, but one is utterly self reliant at the POINT OF ATTRACTION. The one is self reliant , self empowered, etc will the not have a double agenda which could lead to a recreation of the past life dynamics leading to another misapplication of the trust which then leads to being used all over again.
******
The chart I had posted contained Moon in Scorpio as the facilitator of the SN in Cancer, and Saturn in Scorpio as the facilitator of the NN in Cap. So I think Rad's answer had to do with that chart specifically. However, I think the above could be helpful in understanding the many paradoxes in Ellen's chart.
So I take it that we would need to understand Ellen's Moon/Taurus/8th (facilitator of NN) square Saturn/Aquarius/5th (facilitator of the SN). These form part of a t-square with Neptune/Scorpio/2nd; Saturn at the apex. The other difficult aspects in the chart are Mars square Jupiter, Sun square Jupiter, and of course the skipped steps in Jupiter t-square the Nodes. All other aspects in the chart are easy ones.
There would have been misapplications of trust in many past lives caused by a deep natural fear of loss and abandonment. With Neptune ruling the 7th house, she could have suffered disillusionment around relationships in general. I would say that her Jupiter/Aries/7th obviously does hold an answer in that she needs to learn to trust in a totally new way, to step forward in faith, to follow her instincts that will lead to new directions. That in reaching out in faith towards others, she will not necessarily get emotional support from them (4th), and may suffer abandonment and betrayal (8th) again. The resolution node SN/Cap/4th will allow her to develop and strengthen her emotional security base from within herself, and to cease attachment to authority figures (SN ruler Saturn).
Ellen's chart below:
Upasika and Linda, I am going to need some time to digest your comments. I am just having a difficult time interpreting Ellen's chart. I think the stages are a remarkable tool to deploy in reading any chart, but here the interpretation (for me, anyway) is compounded by not only the jupiter square but the mars conjunction to the south node. So, is her planet conjunct the south node in fruition, was the lesson resisted, or is it both?? and she has her sun in Capricorn...it looks like there's a very heavy emphasis on the south node, which makes me wonder about that north node - what if it isn't accessed fully, or maybe even at all? how does this set up the next life? but I'm taking on more than I can handle anyway, so that is just a musing.
Ellen, you've probably noticed that I haven't been commenting on what I believe your evolutionary stage is. I don't think my synthesis abilities are nearly good enough yet to offer you a valuable assessment. I realize you are student of EA (you mentioned the DVDs) - you must have had a consultation at some point - if you did, what did they say about your evolutionary state? can you say?
Hi Bluesky,
The skipped steps (Jup square Nodes) does complicate things with Ellen's substage for me too, so you're not alone there. But I don't think there's any doubt the NN has been accessed as that's the very definition of skipped steps. When a chart has skipped steps it means that the future (NN) and past (SN) have become intertwined because in previous lifetimes the soul has not resolved the requirements (lessons) of the SN fully. Instead, not wanting to face all the SN issues for some reason, they have tried to take shortcuts with their evolutionary requirements and jump to the NN issues before the SN issues have been fully resolved. Likewise with the actual Pluto issues, these have been compromised by reaching for the PPP before the Pluto house/sign/aspect issues have all been resolved.
The essential nature of the skipped steps is shown by the house/sign/aspects of the planet that is squaring the nodes, which of course will include both Nodes and their house/sign/aspects as they are automatically included in the aspects of the skipped step planet (square to Nodes). (Not sure if it explicity includes Pluto and/or PPP as well ...?)
Like you, as I understand it the Sun conjunct the SN indicates a decision to have a major focus on the SN in this life in order to clear up it's outstanding issues. That leaves the remaining planets conjunct the SN (Mars and Mercury) as in a possible relive or fruition condition. As a general rule of thumb hard aspects to those planets from other areas of the chart will indicate a relive condition, and easy aspects a fruition condition. Mercury has easy aspects to Saturn, Neptune and Pluto, and hard to Uranus indicating it's mostly fruition but some relive concerning Uranus in Virgo/12th. Mars has easy aspects to Moon, Uranus, Neptune and Pluto and hard to Jupiter. Again mostly fruition except relive concerning Jupiter in Aries/7th. But because Jupiter is part of the skipped steps this means Mars is also part of the skipped steps so an additional layer of relive issues is indicated for Mars because of that. Plus Mars is the ruler of Jupiter so it's doubly involved in the skipped steps issues. So generalising we could say that while Mercury is only involved in a relatively small amount of relive, Mars is heavily involved despite being in a fruition condition in other areas at the same time. However, Ellen probably could add a lot of clarification to these rule of thumb interpretations from her own experience of her life.
That's my understanding, hope it makes sense.
Upasika
Quote from: bluesky on Aug 05, 2010, 09:58 AM
it looks like there's a very heavy emphasis on the south node, which makes me wonder about that north node - what if it isn't accessed fully, or maybe even at all?
Hi Bluesky,
Since there are skipped steps in Ellen's chart, this means the NN area has been worked on to some degree in the past. Here's a quote from the MB about the causes of skipped steps:
The causes of skipped steps are usually caused by traumas, yes. Buy they can also be caused by guilt about something and the consequent 'need' to avoid or deny that guilt, and the reasons for it. This itself implies 'judgments' that the Soul about itself that can be 'out-pictured' in reality it creates: the circumstances of the life and the people in it. This can have the affect of reinforcing the guilt caused by such judgments. It then becomes important to understand the two causes of guilt: either man made due to man made rules, rights and wrongs, moralities, and the like, or natural guilt that is rooted in violations of Natural Laws. Avoidance and denial are the operative dynamics in skipped steps. So the EA astrologer has thus to play the role of 'detective' in order to understand what is causing that denial/ avoidance. And, again, those reasons will be contained within the symbols of the skipped step signature in all charts.
Skipped steps can also occur as a function of 'spiritual' teachings that the Soul is attempting to embrace that has specific doctrines about what 'spiritual life' is all about, and meant to be. All too often such man made doctrines attempt to inhibit or suppress natural human dynamics. This form of adherence to such doctrines can then cause 'skipped steps' relative to the natural human dynamics that are being repressed because of the nature of the spiritual doctrine being adhered to.
Hi Linda,
At last, a response to your post from awhile back. I had some growth to do, I think, before I could really understand what you had written!
Hi Ellen,
Ellen said: "If money were not a need in this lifetime, I would be more than happy to spend my life learning various subjects/disciplines/practices of interest. I would perhaps be a perpetual, full time student of some sort. Unfortunately, reality demands something else."
From the above feedback to Upasika, I think the "reality" you refer to is a pattern of past societal/parental conditioning (Saturn/the father) reflecting the "shoulds" of life. Since Capricorn correlates to "judgment" and in the 4th therefore "self-judgment," the lesson of the skipped steps is to be truthful (Jupiter) to your self (Aries), stop judging yourself (Cap), and give yourself the freedom (Jupiter) to follow new paths and directions (Aries) such as becoming a student or teacher (Jupiter/Mercury) or seeking teacher/student relationships (Venus rules 9th). Fulfilling the skipped steps in this way will resolve the issue of self-image and emotional self-security (4th) that needs to be reformulated.
This response of mine is definitely stream of consciousness, but I think it offers some insight, so I'll leave it as is. I agree with what you write above. One of the things that I am realizing in my current classes is that I very much long for a teacher/student relationship, but in the sense of parent/child, I think (Jupiter squaring the 4th/10th axis) - the parent really being there for the child - really being there through the times when you really just don't understand and/or are afraid. It is interesting to me that teachers frequently bemoan the idea of "holding the student's hand", and this has always frustrated me. But I do understand it; there is the assumption being made that that basic need of having one's hand held (literally and metaphorically) has already happened; but the annoyance that seems to accompany this phrase makes no sense to me. Clearly, a very basic need has not been met. That does not mean that the teacher needs to meet it. But, as I said, the annoyance makes no sense to me. I would think there would be an understanding and awareness and consequent patience that resulted. But this is rarely so.
In my current situation, I have been aware of enormous levels of fear that I am feeling in going forward in this class - the very basic fears and insecurities that a child tends to feel when first going to school. It is as though I never got to let myself in on this fear when I was young, and now I am able to. And while I definitely don't have a parent to hold my hand, I did experience my hand being held - just when I needed it most (and it was the experience of this that awakened in me the awareness and understanding of how profoundly I needed this). And now that I say this, I realize that my need for the teacher to be the parent is really a displaced emotional need.
One last thing about my class that came into my awareness this a.m. is that the whole purpose of it is to try on the role of teacher. That is the aspect of this program that I have REALLY resisted - seeing myself as guiding someone through something has seemed absolutely monumental to me and way beyond me. But this morning I realized (after a week when I came very close to quitting) that growing into this "teacher" role is precisely what I'm needing to learn at this time. And along with that, simply allowing myself to BE in the insecurity, to BE in the not knowing, to FEEL completely incompetent and clueless - that all of that is part of the process, ie, to get to the other side of perfectionism that leads to stopping before learning/completion. And the other thing is that I know that I need to keep going and to not stop, even if I turn out to be the worst teacher or make mistake after mistake after mistake; the point is to LEARN how to be this, which can only come about by doing it.
With your Virgo Ascendant and ruler Mercury conjunct the South Node and Mars, here is the direction that you are seeking: to become a student. Since Mercury is conjunct Mars, you need to find the courage to pursue this new path or paths (teacher/student), and you will have a multiplicity of choices and teachers/disciplines to choose from (Jupiter/Aries 7th).
Yes. I think perhaps I need to let go of the "need" to be a student (ie, a need for parenting by another - a teacher due to displaced emotions) and to step into the notion of being a teacher, and gradually move into that.
I wonder if the skipped steps could have something to do with a relationship to a spiritual teacher in the past? Since Jupiter rules your 4th, perhaps you had actually been a teacher yourself and may have something to resolve along those lines.
I don't know. I do think it is in my nature to be authoritative about what I know. And a lot of the last 10 years has been huge insecurity resulting from the realization that I really don't know what I think I know = fundamental confusion re: how I express myself in the world. But of course part of this whole collapse is the result of never really pursuing anything fully, resulting in a fundamental lack of knowledge foundation from which to teach/be authoritative.
Saturn, ruler of Sun/Mars/Mercury/SN, is saying that "it is okay" to be yourself, to be creative, and that work can be a joyful expression too. You need to liberate and transform the harsh Saturnian voice within yourself (4th) and allow yourself the freedom to study with a teacher or a discipline that you are naturally attracted to (Venus rules 9th).
I wonder if Saturn is not also saying that I have to work really hard AT LEARNING to be myself, AT LEARNING to let go of the need to obey whatever the status quo happens to be - that there is a fundamental inhibition here (re: being myself) thus marking the place of disciplined effort despite restrictions/fears/rejections/ abandonment..... This is certainly how it has felt! (Ah, you say this below...)
In my opinion, in early first stage spiritual, you are feeling small, and since you can still hear the old authoritarian voice "be something" (Saturn/Aquarius) you are struggling to liberate yourself through your own efforts. The skipped steps have to do with the cardinal energies. I'm going to be bold now and say that the skipped steps relate to the beginning of 1st stage spiritual! (Virgo Asc) - and not to an earlier stage. That you are now taking full responsibility for the choices you make in the next step along the spiritual path. That this responsibility now lies completely with you, and not an authority (Cap/father) or spiritual teacher to make that choice for you (Jupiter in the 7th).
I think that I am just at the VERY beginning stages of learning/understanding this, but I do feel that it is set in motion and that the likelihood of reversal is finally, perhaps after many, many lifetimes, is minimal, if at all.
You've simply stated your true desire:
If money were not a need in this lifetime, I would be more than happy to spend my life learning various subjects/disciplines/practices of interest. I would perhaps be a perpetual, full time student of some sort. Unfortunately, reality demands something else.
Since material values are not going to be important in the 1st stage spiritual, you could find part-time work and see it "truthfully" for what it is: working for survival purposes, which is enabling you the freedom to pursue your true desire to study various subjects or teach. Interestingly, Mercury (student) rules your 6th house and also the MC (teacher). Furthermore, with Neptune in the 2nd house, you can rely on the universe to supply your material needs.
Hmmm.... Interesting.... Perhaps some need here of letting go of values (material) that are not mine (which, while I was not living a materialistic life outwardly speaking, I would say that I never fully embraced my own values, believing them to be unrealisitic...) and letting the universe flow more... This is something that I am beginning to feel - to get a very initial sense of, and the corresponding growth need to trust it.
The Moon/Taurus (facilitator of the NN) is necessarily placed in the 8th house so as to enable you to metamorphose the old vision, the old self-concept.
Again interesting... really insightful...
This will allow you to move forward, to embrace the NN/Cancer (to reformulate your self-image and express it in the world).
I do think that this is what this time is about that I am going through - "reformulating my self-image" so that, down the road (after Pluto finishes up with my Sun? When it hits my SN?... When I begin a new progressed lunation cycle? All of the above?....) and why my experience in the world is so bizarre - such a basic inability to connect with people because the old ways of relating just don't work, nor does relating to the old kinds of people... I do hope "this time, too, shall pass" and I find myself relating easily with people and people feeling at ease around me... so NOT the case right now in my daily life... :-[
You will be more fluid and empathetic and forgiving of your own self, especially where social role is concerned.
I absolutely agree with this.
The Cancer 10th caring and nurturing social role will work perfectly with your 1st stage spiritual status.
That would be just lovely!
Thanks for allowing me and others to practise. Hope the above is not too far-fetched and rings true! I'm enjoying this more and more, it's exciting, especially since I feel we're getting quite close to discovering your true evolutionary condition.
Upasika and Linda, that does help a lot - I had forgotten about a planet squaring the nodes indicating that the person has already attempted to access the north node.
And what Upasika mentioned about aspects to those planets on the south nodes, hard or easy, was news to me. That's a great piece of information to put in my EA tool kit.
Thank you both!
Quote from: Upasika on Aug 04, 2010, 05:53 PM
Hi Bluesky, Ellen
Mine is handy so I'll sketch out a summary of what Jeffrey says, in approximated key principle form and adapted from a composite to individual viewpoint:
Pluto in 4th/Cancer
Correlates to creating a tightly stuctured reality through which to feel safe and secure as a reaction to previous lifetimes where circumstances caused great emotional upheavals, which has led to deep insecurity in the soul. Now in this life, as a reaction, there is a great need to create security, and emotional control and manipulation may be employed to create this security.
Creating an insular environment produces internalisation and emotional compression which then can become stifling causing emotional eruptions. The purpose of these emotional cycles is to allow a penetration of the past causes that are the emotional basis of the fears, leading to emotional self knowledge. The intention is to create inner security and until this is achieved emotional needs will be projected onto others.
Individuated
Wanting to be close at all times to others and situations that represent emotional safety produces an emotional claustrophobia that results in confrontations. Because of being in the individuated state, the nature of which is to rebel against external authority in order to individualise from the consensus, these confrontations relate to being overly controlled or manipulated, or being overly controlling or manipulative. This can occur even when the confrontation is with someone who the individual loves deeply. Feelings of having been rejected or disdained by the parents in some way will have created displaced emotions creating a strong need to "nest" as an adult, and to try and heal themselves within the safety of that nest. There will be unresolved anger, and a need for sexual healing, both of which may be acted out in relationships to create emotional and soul renewal.
Spiritual
Being in the spiritual stage these unresolved emotions represent impurities that must progressively surface into consciousness to allow movement forward in spiritual reality. This can create great turmoil caused by cycles of time which are calm, peaceful and spiritualised followed by times where the unresolved emotions are coming to the surface in varying degrees of intensity in quite a childlike way. This cycle would be especially stimulated by the relationship dynamics involved with those close to the individual. The unresolved emotions stem from deep insecurities, yet being in the spirititual stage the individual is in the process of progressively disengaging from all external dependencies. This can create a fear of not being wanted by others which may then be projected. Dealing with this paradox involves correctly interpreting why this is occurring and realising that it is a natural consequence in spiritual development. In essence these emotions surface because there is a transference between the external home and the inner home of God/dess. At the highest level this is learning to trust God/dess as the ultimate parent.
*********
Is this what you were after Bluesky? That's all I've got time for myself now, but it's a start .... you might want to add to this Ellen.
blessings Upasika
Hi Upasika,
Thanks for doing this. What you write seems right on from my reading of the chapter. I would only add the insecurity (especially social) that can come about due to the gender switch signature.
When I read through this chapter, it seemed to me that in my previous relationships, the individuated description seemed to apply. I am not now in a relationship and have not been in one for some time, but I can say that the description of the spiritual stage through this house feels right to me in terms of what I'm shooting for - within myself and also choosing a partner with whom to do this work... In terms of experiencing unresolved emotions as impurities, I have definitely felt this to be so.
Quote from: bluesky on Aug 05, 2010, 09:58 AM
Upasika and Linda, I am going to need some time to digest your comments. I am just having a difficult time interpreting Ellen's chart. I think the stages are a remarkable tool to deploy in reading any chart, but here the interpretation (for me, anyway) is compounded by not only the jupiter square but the mars conjunction to the south node. So, is her planet conjunct the south node in fruition, was the lesson resisted, or is it both?? and she has her sun in Capricorn...it looks like there's a very heavy emphasis on the south node, which makes me wonder about that north node - what if it isn't accessed fully, or maybe even at all? how does this set up the next life? but I'm taking on more than I can handle anyway, so that is just a musing.
Ellen, you've probably noticed that I haven't been commenting on what I believe your evolutionary stage is. I don't think my synthesis abilities are nearly good enough yet to offer you a valuable assessment. I realize you are student of EA (you mentioned the DVDs) - you must have had a consultation at some point - if you did, what did they say about your evolutionary state? can you say?
Hi bluesky,
I've been told I'm 1st spiritual. I've also had an EA astrologer agree with me that my life, as it has played out, definitely looks more like individuated. My own feeling, at this time, is that the individuated appearance has been the result of skipped steps and hiding signatures masking the 1st spiritual nature of my soul. My feeling is that I am just barely in the 1st spiritual stage - just have a toe in is the best way I can describe my sense of it. I continue to be open to discussion/debate about this - for fine tuning my own stage, but also because I think scouring this is a valuable exercise re: learning the EA stages - developing a sense for them.
Hi All,
I've had quite a couple of weeks. I'll try to respond some more this weekend, but I'm behind in my studies, so I need to focus on catching up on that..... Thank you all so much for pursuing this.
Peace,
Ellen
Hi Linda,
Your post on the paradox situation where a planet is in it's sign's natural opposite house was very interesting - thanks for doing that. I've got some questions to ask you about it, but have to go for the rest of the day now, but will post soon when I've got a chance.
.... and Ellen, hope you catch up on all your studies. They're obviously important so there's no rush from my side for you to get back, just when it is easy for you ...
Upasika
Since material values are not going to be important in the 1st stage spiritual, you could find part-time work and see it "truthfully" for what it is: working for survival purposes, which is enabling you the freedom to pursue your true desire to study various subjects or teach. Interestingly, Mercury (student) rules your 6th house and also the MC (teacher). Furthermore, with Neptune in the 2nd house, you can rely on the universe to supply your material needs.
Hi Linda and All,
Just wanted to clarify here: Mercury does not rule my 6th house. It rules my 12th (and MC, as stated). Neptune rules my 6th. Although traditional rulerships would have Jupiter ruling my 6th.... Does EA take this into account?
Ellen
Addition: Actually, the above is true for Placidus, but not Porphyry (see chart p. 4 of this thread). Porphyry has Aq on my 6th house cusp, so Uranus rulership. Mercury does rule Uranus in my chart, so perhaps that is the connection....?
Ellen,
I've had to modify my post as I was getting off-track.
Rad said:QuoteThe EA stage of anyone is not dependent of understanding the nature of the paradoxes. The underlying orientation to life itself is the basis of one's EA stage.
If the skipped steps were caused by
trauma, then Saturn in Aquarius 5th could hold a key, since Saturn rules your Capricorn planets as well as the SN.
If the skipped steps were caused by
guilt (Pluto/Virgo/12th) then the consequences of that guilt would have been avoidance or denial. This implies judgments: self-judgment (4th, how you see yourself from within yourself); and judgments from the outside from family/society (SN/Cap/4th).
The guilt, and therefore the avoidance and denial, are reinforced by the judgments (Capricorn), which lead to the skipped steps.
Were the causes of guilt due to man-made rules, rights, wrongs, and moralities (Capricorn)? [/b]
Were the causes of guilt due to 'natural' guilt rooted in violations of Natural Law (Jupiter)?[/b]
Did the skipped steps relate to hiding, suppression or not living according to natural truths?
Quote from: Linda on Aug 05, 2010, 02:21 AM
A while back I asked Rad about paradoxical charts:
Rad's reply:
The general rule of thumb is to help the person understand what the nature and causes are of the underlying paradoxes within them, and then to help them determine a way of resolving those paradoxes. Simple example in the chart you have provided: a deep, natural fear of loss and abandonment which has happened in many lives through misapplication of trust which, in turn, has caused them to emotionally and psychologically isolate themselves from others as a way of compensating for that, which in turn has caused them to feel very alone within the world, which then causes a deep need to connect with and/or be in at least one committed relationship of like mind, yet not knowing how to get there or make that happen because of the fears of abandonment, etc. A paradox. The resolution in this cause is to choose another who is not only of like mind, but one is utterly self reliant at the POINT OF ATTRACTION. The one is self reliant , self empowered, etc will the not have a double agenda which could lead to a recreation of the past life dynamics leading to another misapplication of the trust which then leads to being used all over again.
******
The chart I had posted contained Moon in Scorpio as the facilitator of the SN in Cancer, and Saturn in Scorpio as the facilitator of the NN in Cap.
.....
So I take it that we would need to understand Ellen's Moon/Taurus/8th (facilitator of NN) square Saturn/Aquarius/5th (facilitator of the SN). These form part of a t-square with Neptune/Scorpio/2nd; Saturn at the apex. The other difficult aspects in the chart are Mars square Jupiter, Sun square Jupiter, and of course the skipped steps in Jupiter t-square the Nodes. All other aspects in the chart are easy ones.
There would have been misapplications of trust in many past lives caused by a deep natural fear of loss and abandonment....
Linda, I'm wondering what part of the signature was related to the misapplication of trust in the chart Rad was talking about, and that is also the same in Ellen's chart? Would you mind clarifying that for me?
thanks, Upasika
Upasika,
The first chart that Rad looked at showed the misapplication of trust through the symbols of SN Ruler, Moon in Scorpio, and NN Ruler, Saturn in Scorpio. The woman, through a misapplication of trust, was let down by partners who used and abused her, resulting in abandonment, loss, betrayal, violations of trust (Scorpio).
In Ellen's chart, since it is also paradoxical, I take it that we need to look at the Pluto dynamic to get an idea of the nature and causes of the underlying paradoxes (which I have done in my preceding post). What stands out in Ellen's chart is the South Node, for it is the Resolution Node to the skipped steps. The misapplication of trust in teachers (Jupiter) or partners (7th house) could have resulted in suppression of natural emotions, childlike over-dependence on authority figures, and deep insecurity in herself.
Since Ellen's North Node has been active in the past, she could have suffered loss, betrayal, abandonment and violations of trust, since her Moon (facilitator) is in the 8th house.
The above is my interpretation - but if Rad reads this, he may wish to clarify for you.
Hi Linda,
Thanks for that. I found the post with the chart that you were referring to, https://forum.schoolofevolutionaryastrology.com/index.php/topic,80.msg898.html#msg898 (https://forum.schoolofevolutionaryastrology.com/index.php/topic,80.msg898.html#msg898) and looking at it I can see reasons for Rad saying what he did, but I would not have thought it was just from Moon and Saturn being in Scorpio alone, it looked perhaps like it was in conjunction with several other factors ? So I'm wondering if you are saying in Ellen's chart the Moon in the 8th, just by itself, automatically indicates misapplication of trust? I'm not meaning it doesn't, I'm just trying to get a better understanding of it, as Ellen has confirmed she has had trust issues in this life.
thanks, Upasika
Upasika,
Yes, the chart that Rad looked at did contain many other factors or reasons for the misapplication of trust. Bear in mind that every single house is ruled by the opposite of its natural ruler, so the whole chart is subject to "misapplication of trust." That is the way I understood it at the time. Scorpio ruling both the SN and NN facilitators only emphasized the requirement for healing/metamorphosis. Since the paradoxical chart is dealing with "oppositions" of energies, we need to ask, what happened in the past to create the necessity for this type of chart? Obviously the misapplications of trust would principally relate to relationships due to the oppositions in energies, and then to betrayal, abandonment and loss resulting from them. A paradoxical chart would then provide the opportunity for healing on every level. Apparently the betrayals and abandonments had been so deep and traumatic as to warrant a paradoxical chart in this life. As far as Ellen's chart is concerned, I see that misapplications of trust could have taken place in every house therefore conditioning the planets therein. I myself also have a paradoxical chart and I know that I've had trouble trusting people and life in general, but that through betrayal and abandonment I've learned to trust more in myself, rather than put all of my trust out there. Of course this creates the situation that I find myself alone again, with the desire to find just the right person who can restore my faith and trust, rather than get hurt all over again. Does this make sense? What do you think?
I will write to Rad again and ask for clarification, attaching a copy of Ellen's chart.
Hi Linda,
Thanks for elaborating, and I do get the general themes you are explaining, although I'm a bit confused about some of the details. I realise I could be missing the obvious somehow, but thanks for checking it out further with Rad.
blessings Upasika
Quote from: Linda on Aug 07, 2010, 03:41 AM
Upasika,
Yes, the chart that Rad looked at did contain many other factors or reasons for the misapplication of trust. Bear in mind that every single house is ruled by the opposite of its natural ruler, so the whole chart is subject to "misapplication of trust." That is the way I understood it at the time. Scorpio ruling both the SN and NN facilitators only emphasized the requirement for healing/metamorphosis. Since the paradoxical chart is dealing with "oppositions" of energies, we need to ask, what happened in the past to create the necessity for this type of chart? Obviously the misapplications of trust would principally relate to relationships due to the oppositions in energies, and then to betrayal, abandonment and loss resulting from them. A paradoxical chart would then provide the opportunity for healing on every level. Apparently the betrayals and abandonments had been so deep and traumatic as to warrant a paradoxical chart in this life. As far as Ellen's chart is concerned, I see that misapplications of trust could have taken place in every house therefore conditioning the planets therein. I myself also have a paradoxical chart and I know that I've had trouble trusting people and life in general, but that through betrayal and abandonment I've learned to trust more in myself, rather than put all of my trust out there. Of course this creates the situation that I find myself alone again, with the desire to find just the right person who can restore my faith and trust, rather than get hurt all over again. Does this make sense? What do you think?
I will write to Rad again and ask for clarification, attaching a copy of Ellen's chart.
Hi Linda, Upasika, All,
I just wanted to add to this as I feel that I am coming to understand some of this a little better in terms of my own life. Keep in mind that in my chart there are also hiding signatures. As I have been told by an EA astrologer (Linda, I will respond to your post in more detail, but it will be a bit as I am feeling a little swamped right now), I have experienced trauma in prior lives that has led to me seeking consensus hideouts for safety/security. That means, of course (and this is me elaborating now on what the EA astrologer said, not what the astrologer actually said to me), that, to satisfy my strong need for safety/security, I have essentially had to betray myself in order to adopt consensus ways of being, ie, my life (lives) since making this decision to hideout has been life(s) where my focus has been not on developing myself, but on learning how to scan the environment for signals/clues/etc for how to behave and then behaving in those ways. That certainly fits for this life in every way, with the most obvious example being my sexual orientation. Obviously, this has led to an enormous buildup of anger/rage/frustration and a complete feeling of utter aloneness and also the actual experience of not ever actualizing myself in any way and feeling stumped as to how to go about doing that and feeling completely not helped in any way. Indeed, I have not been helped because I chose environments in which the emphasis was on me abandoning myself and following the norms, not environments that saw me and fostered my development. So, while understandable, and perhaps initially necessary, ultimately I have become my own betrayer. And this pervades every aspect of my life.
One insight that I am getting about this is that the lesson is a little more complex than just, "I have to learn to do it all myself". That message does not take into account the paradoxes - "loner" signs (cap) in relationship houses (4th), "Who am I" sign (Aries) in relationship house (7), and relationship sign (Aq) in "me" house (5). My insight is this: that because I have deeply, profoundly internalized the message that I am all alone, I have in fact recreated that reality over and over. This is the obstacle that has felt insurmountable to me, ie, I do not WANT to be completely alone, yet because that has been my reality, I have believed that that is in fact what I have to learn. What I am now just beginning to get a glimmer of is that, in fact, my reality is my reality because I have internalized these messages that are based on hiding and the consequent confusions that have arisen from that. My BELLIEF is now changing, as is my DESIRE as I am beginning to realize that, in fact, my NEED to feel nurtured and supported is a LEGITIMATE and indeed an essential need. Yet I have not allowed that reality to develop, keeping it pushed away out of fear - fear based on a history of betrayals - betrayals based on signing up for a reality that was never going to support me and nurture my development. Is this making sense?
The other trick to this is the paradox of needing to be vulnerable for growth to occur (Cancer/4th), yet at the same time vulnerability leading to deep betrayal (Moon in 8th), thus reinforcing the need to keep myself protected and isolated (Capricorn in 4th, Scorpio in 2nd). Again, the reason is the lack of awareness of the hiding situation I have put myself in. In other words, the reason is NOT because I have to figure it all out myself. I am beginning to believe strongly that, in fact, growth CANNOT occur without others, and without real and genuine vulnerability. The missing piece is the awareness of the hiding signatures and how profoundly those have affected my own projections and thus my own reality. Do I have to be self-sufficient? Yes. Absolutely. But I would also argue that the foundation of self-sufficiency is nurturing which allows for vulnerability which allows for one's true needs to be identified and therefore attended to - nurturing that is appropriate for who a person is. I am NOT saying that I now will be seeking out others to take care of me. I AM saying that I DO have a right and profound need to be open about my real needs and fears and to allow the universe to nurture me in these regards. The example I gave of having the experience of feeling my hand being held - that is the type of thing I am referring to. That is something I profoundly needed and I was aware of that and wanting that. And there it was. There was not a person there holding my hand, yet my hand was definitely being held. Anyway, I hope all this makes sense.
So the skipped steps are a big deal, but I think the real clues to understanding them, or at least to really be able to flesh out the picture of them, is to understand the context of the whole chart in this case - and that means understanding the hiding signature (the reason for that) and the paradoxes (which I think can be really understood only when the reasons for the hiding are understood.)
Linda, as for your question about the reasons for the hiding, ie trauma or guilt, I have been told for certain that trauma is a cause. But I think there is also considerable guilt, both natural and man-made. One EA astrologer pointed out the importance of Vesta on my IC, signifying past life(s) in the matriarchy and the connection to an entirely different way of understanding sex/sexuality and participating in that. I think that has lead to man-made guilt, which I feel to be quite profound. But I also have the sense of natural guilt from the perspective of having participated in the patriarchy and benefitting from that without understanding the negative consequences of that. Whether or not I was a real, proactive bad guy (as opposed to someone who just was clueless about the realities of the patriarchy - how others suffered while I breezed through), I don't know....
Addition: I initially posted the astrologers who gave me info re: my situation, but I have decided to take that out.
Peace,
Ellen
"I have experienced trauma in prior lives that has led to me seeking consensus hideouts for safety/security."
I am using this isolated quote from Ellen's last post to point out that hanging onto some consensus values can be caused by needing to meet simple material needs - the more you "evolve" through individuated and (I'm guessing) spiritual - the fewer your opportunities to provide for yourself in a way that keeps food in the gut and a roof over the head -- never mind all those other things that consensus values may extol as making life worth living - ie. special possessions, fancy trips, etc.
and I say this because there has been an ongoing theme in your threads, Ellen, that has to do with what I think you perceive as obtaining "right work". so the question here, in this aspect of it, is how do you go about finding right work in the face of having to keep body and soul together? and you can literally see this in the your chart - pluto in virgo/12th house and it's PP in the 6th house in pieces, neptune in the 2nd and neptune being part of the T-square involving the rulers of both the south and north nodes.
I'm wondering if anyone else would like to weigh in on this.
Quote from: Upasika on Aug 07, 2010, 05:04 AM
Hi Linda,
Thanks for elaborating, and I do get the general themes you are explaining, although I'm a bit confused about some of the details. I realise I could be missing the obvious somehow, but thanks for checking it out further with Rad.
Quote from Rad: QuoteEach chart has it's own unique signature. In the case of charts that do symbolize the core of paradoxes the symbols, in each chart, are the causes of those paradoxes.
Hi Upasika,
We would need to look at the symbols in the whole of Ellen's chart to ascertain the cause and nature of the paradoxes. However, I feel we've gone off-track since determining the EA stage is not dependent on understanding the nature of paradoxes, nor can it be determined from the chart itself.
We needed to focus on Ellen's underlying orientation to life, which we had been trying to do. I think this whole discussion has revealed Ellen's transition from Individuated to Spiritual stage as she has completely exhausted desires in Individuated. There's no way she can go back there, but perhaps could now be confused as to "what to do next?" This is just natural caution at the beginning of a new venture. She could have been 'sitting on the fence' for a long time, but I think she is now trying to find her niche somewhere. The old Individuated self-identity based on societal conditioning will not work for her anymore.
I would agree with the EA astrologer who said that Ellen is at the beginning of 1st Spiritual stage. Surely it is a matter of trial and error, taking new paths and directions, and seeing where they will lead, without necessarily receiving any guarantees. I think Ellen just needs to step into this new area with faith (Jupiter/Aries/7th) and learn to trust others who are also in the 1st stage Spiritual.
Hi All,
Just wanted to post an exchange btw Rad and me following up on a request by Linda on the "paradoxical charts" thread. I felt it had relevance here. Might be worth considering if I/we have meandered a little too far off track.
Peace,
Ellen
First, we do not do personal charts on this message board Linda.
Hi Rad,
Just want to get your ok re: the following. (I assume you or someone else would have stepped in if you felt there was a problem, but given the above highlieghted text, I thought I'd check.) There's been a lot of conversation on the EA thread re: my evolutionary stage re: the paradoxes, hiding signatures and skipped steps. There seems to be a general consensus that these need to be understood in order to be able to understand the EA stage. I have been adding a lot myself over the last couple days as things seem to be making more sense for me and I have felt that by sharing these things, that could help others make better sense of the chart and thus wade through the confusing details to get better clarity on assessing my stage. Just wondering if you feel that this is ok or not for the MB....?
Peace,
Ellen
Each chart has it's own unique signature. In the case of charts that do symbolize the core of paradoxes the symbols, in each chart, are the causes of those paradoxes.
Thank you.
God Bless, Rad
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Re: Paradoxical charts
« Reply #6 on: Today at 04:21 PM »
Quote
Hi Ellen,
First, I have not been following that thread much as it seemed a great vehicle for all that participate to do it as they see fit. So have been unaware of how 'personal' your chart has become. The EA stage of anyone is not dependent of understanding the nature of the paradoxes. The underlying orientation to life itself is the basis of one's EA stage. It is necessary to discourage doing members of this EA message board from doing their personal charts because, in the end, that's what the message board would become.
God Bless, Rad
>
Quote from: Linda on Aug 07, 2010, 04:30 PM
Quote from: Upasika on Aug 07, 2010, 05:04 AM
Hi Linda,
Thanks for elaborating, and I do get the general themes you are explaining, although I'm a bit confused about some of the details. I realise I could be missing the obvious somehow, but thanks for checking it out further with Rad.
Quote from Rad: QuoteEach chart has it's own unique signature. In the case of charts that do symbolize the core of paradoxes the symbols, in each chart, are the causes of those paradoxes.
Hi Upasika,
We would need to look at the symbols in the whole of Ellen's chart to ascertain the cause and nature of the paradoxes. However, I feel we've gone off-track since determining the EA stage is not dependent on understanding the nature of paradoxes, nor can it be determined from the chart itself.
We needed to focus on Ellen's underlying orientation to life, which we had been trying to do. I think this whole discussion has revealed Ellen's transition from Individuated to Spiritual stage as she has completely exhausted desires in Individuated. There's no way she can go back there, but perhaps could now be confused as to "what to do next?" This is just natural caution at the beginning of a new venture. She could have been 'sitting on the fence' for a long time, but I think she is now trying to find her niche somewhere. The old Individuated self-identity based on societal conditioning will not work for her anymore.
I would agree with the EA astrologer who said that Ellen is at the beginning of 1st Spiritual stage. Surely it is a matter of trial and error, taking new paths and directions, and seeing where they will lead, without necessarily receiving any guarantees. I think Ellen just needs to step into this new area with faith (Jupiter/Aries/7th) and learn to trust others who are also in the 1st stage Spiritual.
Hi Linda,
This seems right on to me.
Ellen
Quote from: bluesky on Aug 07, 2010, 10:31 AM
............there has been an ongoing theme in your threads, Ellen, that has to do with what I think you perceive as obtaining "right work". so the question here, in this aspect of it, is how do you go about finding right work in the face of having to keep body and soul together? and you can literally see this in the your chart - pluto in virgo/12th house and it's PP in the 6th house in pieces, neptune in the 2nd and neptune being part of the T-square involving the rulers of both the south and north nodes. I'm wondering if anyone else would like to weigh in on this.
Hi Bluesky,
From the viewpoint that Ellen is at the very beginning of 1st Stage Spiritual, she needs to
trust in this new direction (skipped steps Jupiter/Aries/7th) and
be receptive that her needs will be met (Neptune 2nd, outlet for the kite).
Quote from JWG, Pluto I, p.58:Relative to physical survival, those individuals in a herd state evolutionary condition tend to identify material values as a vehicle to self-sustainment. We can see the implied limitation here. Others in the individuated evolutionary condition have learned to identify themselves as the resource creating the means to self-sustainment. those in the spiritual or universal evolutionary condition have learned that the Source or Universe provides that which they need in order to sustain themselves when one is receptive to that provision. They commonly isolate themselves from the environment and others in order to concentrate upon their relationship to the Source.
I think Ari Moshe nailed it when he said:
The key is finding work that will allow you to devote yourself to the appropriate forms of service. Your mind's scope of possibilities are narrow based on lifetimes of self sacrifice, persecution for being who you were, and immense emotional repression. However you have so much to offer. The key seems to be to not hold back, but to show up and start ea counseling/leading groups/working with women/writing etc... whatever the forms are (all Jupiter in Aries square nodes, Cancer in 10, with Moon in 8 opposing Neptune 2 with Taurus/Scorpio- as facilitator for Pluto polarity in Pisces in the 6) You will be supported financially by way of your service- the key is to stick to the truth of your being and be willing to let go of the way you think it should look. What can you offer this world? There are many answers here.
Linda, thanks for clarifying that.
Hi All,
I am wondering if there is now a general agreement as to my evolutionary stage? Or are people feeling that it is still unclear? I am feeling quite comfortable with my own understanding of myself as at the very beginning of 1st Spiritual. Linda's last quote from JWG merely reconfirmed for me - what JWG wrote about Spiritual felt totally right.
Peace,
Ellen
Ellen,
I feel you are definitely in the early 1st Stage Spiritual.
It's good to know that you're now feeling comfortable with this knowledge.
I think we've all learned heaps through this process.
Thank you for this opportunity.
Hi Ellen (& Linda and All)
For the past few days Ellen I had been thinking you were either on the cusp of 3rd Indiv/1st Spiritual (and nearer the Spiritual side of the gap) or very early 1st Spiritual.
After all the recent posts I'm fine to go with very early 1st Spiritual.
Thanks Ellen for a fascinating thread, for the courage to expose yourself so much. I guess now you are finally relating to people who naturally resonate with you, your inherent SN/Mars square Jupiter in Aries courage gene is making a very big, if not somewhat belated, impact in the world (as if it wants to catch up for lost time) !
Also for providing us all with a very interesting learning example incorporating both skipped steps and hiding signatures. This has made for a very insightful and nourishing process of being astro detectives together.
I wish you all the very best in your life direction and endeavours from this point.
blessings Upasika
Ellen, tonight I was sitting with Jupiter in the night sky and thought to let you know that Jupiter is viewable in the evening sky- in case you didn't know that.
Thank you for your very honest and meticulous devotion to this learning process. This ea stage thread, and the other one- has helped me, and all of us it seems, immensely in understanding the ea stages.
God Bless
Ari Moshe
thanks Ellen, for allowing everyone here to go on this journey with you.
All,
Well, it looks like we've finally come to a conclusion. Thank you all in return. I have learned a ton about EA stages through this thread and through the thread about Ashley. And I have enjoyed the conversations and process a great deal - and grown a bit, too.
Peace,
Ellen
Hi All,
For those who felt confused by my decision to pursue certification as a personal trainer, I thought I'd give you an update. I have been feeling more and more uneasy about going forward as a personal trainer. What I seem to be discovering is that the decision to go to school to be a personal trainer was in fact the right decision, but for the purposes of working through an old layer so that I could finally release it. What I am beginning to see with clarity is that the way that I would like to be working with people is really quite difficult to do in the personal training arena. Yet it has only been through this process of really delving into the PT world that I have begun to understand and really accept my desire to work in a different way and at a different level with people. To me, this is all for the good - the process and the discovery. What is interesting is that when I quit my job back in April, part of my justification for doing it was that I would spend the next six months studying EA. Yet when I had all that free time, I just couldn't get myself to do it. I felt so much angst and anxiety and insecurity about proceeding in that direction. Instead what I found myself doing was spending my time stretching and trying to gently work myself back into shape. Thus my decision. If this is how I'm wanting to spend my time, then why not pursue certification in an area that I'm wanting to devote myself to...? Now all I want to do is study EA! Alas, soon I will need to find a way to make some money... It has been an interesting turn of events. The last couple of days have been incredibly disillusioning in particular. But as I said, I feel a stronger sense of how I want to be in the world and also who exactly I am. I have lived with very strong illusions/delusions - about the world and about myself. I feel that, through this process, I am seeing and understanding with more clarity, even if only a small amount more. I wanted to share this because I thought it could be useful when considering hiding signatures in a chart with regard to evolutionary stage and how those might play out in a person's life (confusing the picture...). Thanks for listening. And hope it helps.
Peace,
Ellen
I appreciate the paradox!
Thanks for sharing that Ellen.
Quote from: ari moshe on Nov 22, 2010, 11:56 PM
I appreciate the paradox!
Thanks for sharing that Ellen.
:D (Hard to find the right smiley, but hopefully my meaning is received..)
Hi Ellen
This is great! And it describes so well the actual playing out of evolutionary work and intents. It shows how symbols in a chart deepen from just intellectual knowledge into symbols of that Soul workings out its desires and evolutionary intents.
Pretty much everyone sees the world in delusional ways. You are not alone in that.
I read once a saying of one of the great beings from India, that we are not going from falseness to truth, but from truth to greater truth. In other words, what we have been operating from has been the place of the deepest truth we have grasped. There are always truths beyond what we have grasped no matter how far along we get, because we are ultimately dealing with a force that is infinite. There is no end.
The "reward" for diligently carrying out our present truth as far as we can take it is we gradually see the limitations inherent in what we have perceived as truth - we start grasping deeper truth. Without having all we'd done to get to the present point we would not be seeing the new deeper truth. Thus everything that proceeded this moment was completely necessary. And, that greater truth makes it clear we now must release from elements of the reality we have created that are invalidated by the deeper truth we've now come to see as a direct result of our efforts to date.
This is just the way life is constructed. And this cycle repeats again and again, infinitely. The problem that humans have created is when we come to see that what we have called truth was actually at least partially delusional that we tend to start judging ourselves as stupid and failing. When in fact it has all been entirely necessary and part of the inevitable process.
The realization that all I can work with is what I know, and that what I know will inevitably be revealed as only partial truth, is the essence of learning humility. And humility is what keeps our hearts and minds open to the inevitable entrance of even greater truth. Acceptance that all this is the Way of Life seems like the key to truly developing inner peace.
Steve
I really appreciate that perspective Steve, thanks for sharing that.
Thank you, Steve. You have expressed so beautifully exactly what I am learning through this process, and by expressing it, you have helped me to understand and accept it even more.
Namaste,
Ellen
Quote from: Steve on Nov 23, 2010, 06:05 AM
Hi Ellen
This is great! And it describes so well the actual playing out of evolutionary work and intents. It shows how symbols in a chart deepen from just intellectual knowledge into symbols of that Soul workings out its desires and evolutionary intents.
Pretty much everyone sees the world in delusional ways. You are not alone in that.
I read once a saying of one of the great beings from India, that we are not going from falseness to truth, but from truth to greater truth. In other words, what we have been operating from has been the place of the deepest truth we have grasped. There are always truths beyond what we have grasped no matter how far along we get, because we are ultimately dealing with a force that is infinite. There is no end.
The "reward" for diligently carrying out our present truth as far as we can take it is we gradually see the limitations inherent in what we have perceived as truth - we start grasping deeper truth. Without having all we'd done to get to the present point we would not be seeing the new deeper truth. Thus everything that proceeded this moment was completely necessary. And, that greater truth makes it clear we now must release from elements of the reality we have created that are invalidated by the deeper truth we've now come to see as a direct result of our efforts to date.
This is just the way life is constructed. And this cycle repeats again and again, infinitely. The problem that humans have created is when we come to see that what we have called truth was actually at least partially delusional that we tend to start judging ourselves as stupid and failing. When in fact it has all been entirely necessary and part of the inevitable process.
The realization that all I can work with is what I know, and that what I know will inevitably be revealed as only partial truth, is the essence of learning humility. And humility is what keeps our hearts and minds open to the inevitable entrance of even greater truth. Acceptance that all this is the Way of Life seems like the key to truly developing inner peace.
Steve