Hi All,
I had a quick question about primary lives. JWG said you can identify these in the chart based on the aspect relationship between Pluto and Mars. If there is an actual aspect between them, then it is a primary life. If no aspect, then it's not. My question is, is it ALL aspects that apply, ie, does this include semi-squares, semi-sextiles, sesquiquads, inconjuncts, septiles, etc..... or just the primary (Ptolemaic) aspects?
Thanks,
Ellen
Can someone clarify what "primary life" means? thanks..
Quote from: bluesky on Mar 29, 2010, 02:10 PM
Can someone clarify what "primary life" means? thanks..
Hi bluesky,
I may have gotten the terminology wrong, but what I am referring to are those lives in which the Soul is working directly on its evolutionary development - and I may be saying this wrong. I'll give an example that I've seen on this MB. Barrack Obama. Prior lives were Abraham Lincoln and Lindbergh. Abraham Lincoln and Obama are primary lives. Lindbergh was not. I remember someone saying on one of the threads that it was as though Lindbergh's life was a way of facing death directly by living a dare devil kind of life. Obama, on the other hand, is continuing on more directly with the evolutionary work that was evident in Lincoln's life. Hope this helps.
Ellen
Hi Ellen,
Not every aspect between Pluto/Mars correlate with primary lives; primary lives exist when Pluto/Mars are in any of the following aspects: conjunction, semi-square, square, trine, sesquisquare, inconjunct or opposition. In primary lives "the core evolutionary and karmic intentions are being directly worked on" (JWG, Pluto II book).
Gonzalo.
Might someone embellish a bit more on this topic? Perhaps compare some more key dynamics that might unfold in a primary life in contrast to one that is not... basically a more developed descritpion of the primary. And then also maybe explaing a little of the astrological basis for the planet mars being the planet mentioned with aspects to pluto... and specifically in EA terminology, why Mars? I know it is the lower active or conscious octave of Pluto but I am still looking for more of the connection to be articulated? I only vaguely remember reading about it.
Thanks so much
Dhyana
Dhyana
I suggest you start by reading this article:
http://schoolofevolutionaryastrology.com/school/articles/the-mars-pluto-interface
Steve
OK, thanks Steve!!! :)
Quote from: gonzalopan on Mar 29, 2010, 04:11 PM
Hi Ellen,
Not every aspect between Pluto/Mars correlate with primary lives; primary lives exist when Pluto/Mars are in any of the following aspects: conjunction, semi-square, square, trine, sesquisquare, inconjunct or opposition. In primary lives "the core evolutionary and karmic intentions are being directly worked on" (JWG, Pluto II book).
Gonzalo.
Hi Gonzalo,
Many thanks for this.
Ellen
Hi Dhyana,
Further to the article recommended by Steve, the following chapters deal with this topic and are very clear and complete:
Pluto I, Mars in aspect to Pluto.
Pluto II, The phasal relationship of Mars and Pluto.
Being a lower octave of Pluto, Mars will express on an ongoing external basis the dual desire nature of the Soul: the desire to separate and the desire to return to the Source. Aries, Mars, the First House, correlate with the desire and need to separate in order to create a sense of being a distinct individual, which in turn will induce a crisis because of the natural inconjunct between Aries and Scorpio-the Soul. This crisis is rooted in the dual desires of the Soul, which allows the ego perception (Cancer, Fourth House, Moon) of being totally separate from anything else, yet needing to integrate back to where it emanated from-the Soul. Via Mars, the Soul will instinctively produce actions creating the experiences the Soul-Pluto-needs to actualize its intentions, to externally create what it desires. In turn, by means of actualizing its desires, and creating that which the Soul desires, the Soul will be able to discover what it is that it has desired: that which was unconscious will become apparent. Thus, Mars will allow the Soul to evolve, because the externalization of desires, the surfacing of Soul desires through created experiences, is necessary for the process of exhausting and eliminating its separation desires.
When Mars is in aspect to Pluto, the function of acting out desires is subject to metamorphic change: instinctual creation of experiences-Mars-is strongly fueled by the desire nature of the Soul-Pluto. The individual will create experiences directly expressing its desires, be them desires of separation or the desire to return. The individual will face its unconscious desire nature because he will have the power to externally or consciously create that which he desires: his desires will produce an effect. This effect will allow conscious awareness of the desire nature of the individual, and a metamorphosis of how the individual is acting his desires.
This dynamic exists in all people-it is the basis of evolution of human consciousness-whether or not Mars is in aspect to Pluto, though it will be emphasized when these aspects exist.
I hope this helps.
Gonzalo.
Yes! It really helps a lot Gonzalo.
And it was written really well ---and clear (for someone who is experiencing some heavy duty brain fog lately). So I appreciate the way you wrote it too.
So Many Blessings,
Dhyana
Quote from: Dhyana on Apr 11, 2010, 02:27 PM
Could someone provide an EA definition of PRIMARY LIFE, or direct me to find more information about this term?
Thank you
Dhyana
Hi Dhyana
Gonzalopan has already answered your question at the top of this same page
https://forum.schoolofevolutionaryastrology.com/index.php/topic,195.msg2300.html#msg2300
Quote from: gonzalopan on Mar 29, 2010, 04:11 PM
Hi Ellen,
Not every aspect between Pluto/Mars correlate with primary lives; primary lives exist when Pluto/Mars are in any of the following aspects: conjunction, semi-square, square, trine, sesquisquare, inconjunct or opposition. In primary lives "the core evolutionary and karmic intentions are being directly worked on" (JWG, Pluto II book).
Gonzalo.
I'm looking at the chart of a friend who's natal Mars is 30 degrees behind Pluto. Thus, according to the above, this is not a primary life for her. This was surprising for me to find out as I would have guessed that this was a primary life for her - she seems to be really working things, if that makes sense. Then I thought of Lindberg's life as a non-primary life of the Soul of Lincoln and Obama and it occurred to me that I probably would have thought that Lindberg's life was primary. Yet it was not. So what I'm wondering, is how do you know the difference, without looking at the chart, between someone who is living a primary lifetime and someone who is not? Or is the only way to tell by looking at the chart. And, if that is so, then is there really any benefit to even knowing whether it is a primary life or not? And if there is, what is that?
Thanks so much for anyone willing to tackle this. It just really hit me that what I thought were sure markers (ie, a certain quality of intensity and really having to deal with issues) for a primary life seem in fact not to be.
Peace,
Ellen
I just had a quick question on your statement about the past lives of Obama. I totally get the Lincoln aspect. However, didn't Charles Lindbergh die in 1974? Thanks!
Ellen - long ago I figured the primary life issue was something I'd not fully understand - in theory, but not in a cohesive fashion. I completely 'ditto' your questions! ;D
I'm apparently in a primary life - it feels I'm not getting anywhere. Although I've decided the idea of 'getting anywhere' is a counter-productive attitude. So, I simply exist & feel like I'm waiting (I sound so taurus south node right now). However, this life may seem somewhat 'easy' (thus far) simply because so many lives have been full of trauma - ? - perhaps that is part of it, or can be, a 'primary' is the time to 'sift' and for others
it is more of a 'reaping' or even 'sowing'. Hmmm. My guess is the answer will be, as it is usually, rather relative. But, I'm anxious for a reply to your questions myself.
hi Yarrow
Quote from: yarrow8 on Oct 07, 2010, 09:31 PM
I just had a quick question on your statement about the past lives of Obama. I totally get the Lincoln aspect. However, didn't Charles Lindbergh die in 1974? Thanks!
I am not an expert on these things, so can't say for certain what I am about to say is true in this case. We were taught that in the higher evolutionary stages, starting in Spiritual 1st, that the Soul can split itself, have two incarnations going at the same time, to speed up its evolution. That each would be working with different elements of the Soul's desire nature. Lincoln was identified as being in 1st stage spiritual. Yogananda said in his life prior to Lincoln, in fact, he was a yogi in India. So perhaps this explains the chronological overlap.
Steve
Ellen
QuoteI'm wondering, how do you know the difference, without looking at the chart, between someone who is living a primary lifetime and someone who is not? Or is the only way to tell by looking at the chart. And, if that is so, then is there really any benefit to even knowing whether it is a primary life or not? And if there is, what is that?
I'd not thought about the things you are asking about before. Can't guarantee I am correct, but some thoughts came to me.
First, the only way to know if someone is living a primary lifetime without a chart is to be able to look directly into their Soul. For the other 99.22% of us....
What came to me is, a primary lifetime is an evolutionary gateway lifetime. That is what the aspect between Pluto and Mars represents. That aspect is either culminating (balsamic qualities) like a Crescent phase square, or beginning (new phase qualities) like a First Quarter square. They are gateways into the next phase of that Soul's development. Because they relate to new orientations, in the case of stressful aspects at least, there is going to be inner tension and resistance to the intended changes. That resistance will be within the Soul itself, not just the personality. Thus it may take extra effort to move through the transition.
Mars moves about half a degree a day. By progression, in an 80 year life Mars moves about 40 degrees, enough to move through any transitional gateway. (Unless it is retrograde for all or part of that period.) Thus culminating aspects have the potential to complete within this life, if the evolutionary intentions are addressed.
Jeffrey taught that it takes eight primary lifetimes to complete a Mars-Pluto cycle, which breaks down to one per phase. You can see by the progressions that 40 degrees in 80 years correlates to approx one 45 degree phase of that cycle. I don't think he ever expanded much on the purpose of subsidiary (secondary) lifetimes. What fits for me is they are where we are completing and refining elements that were not quite finished in the primary lifetime. (It is our own Soul that determines if it is satisfied that completion was reached).
In terms of being able to recognize a primary lifetime through observation, I don't know if that is possible. I thought of the example of a person with 5 planets in Scorpio and every planet in the chart EXCEPT Mars aspecting Pluto. That person is going to be very intense, yet they are not in a primary lifetime. If you look at them from the outside you would not know that.
In terms of whether it makes any difference to know, I suspect not a huge difference. My sense is a lot of the heavy lifting, culminating or breaking open new elements, occurs in the primary lifetime. In the secondary they are born with those gates already opened. So a certain amount of the breaking open pressure is released. But they could be working on many intense things that would create their own pressures in the secondary life. So it could be difficult to tell the difference from the outside.
Also, if a person is in a primary life with a Mars-Pluto trine, and has a bunch of other trines, and doesn't have a lot of Pluto aspects to other planets, from the outside they would not feel like what we picture a primary life would feel like. As always, there are infinite combinations and possibilities.
Hi Steve,
Thanks for your reply! Sounds a little confusing but thanks for attempting that!
Yarrow
Quote from: Steve on Oct 08, 2010, 09:08 AM
hi Yarrow
Quote from: yarrow8 on Oct 07, 2010, 09:31 PM
I just had a quick question on your statement about the past lives of Obama. I totally get the Lincoln aspect. However, didn't Charles Lindbergh die in 1974? Thanks!
I am not an expert on these things, so can't say for certain what I am about to say is true in this case. We were taught that in the higher evolutionary stages, starting in Spiritual 1st, that the Soul can split itself, have two incarnations going at the same time, to speed up its evolution. That each would be working with different elements of the Soul's desire nature. Lincoln was identified as being in 1st stage spiritual. Yogananda said in his life prior to Lincoln, in fact, he was a yogi in India. So perhaps this explains the chronological overlap.
Steve
Steve's Quote:
What came to me is, a primary lifetime is an evolutionary gateway lifetime. That is what the aspect between Pluto and Mars represents. That aspect is either culminating (balsamic qualities) like a Crescent phase square, or beginning (new phase qualities) like a First Quarter square. They are gateways into the next phase of that Soul's development. Because they relate to new orientations, in the case of stressful aspects at least, there is going to be inner tension and resistance to the intended changes. That resistance will be within the Soul itself, not just the personality. Thus it may take extra effort to move through the transition.
Hi Steve,
Thanks for this. Thinking of primary lives as a gateway for the Soul is really helpful. I can definitely understand the difference. And I can now also understand how people going through subsidiary lives may also be working very hard in their current life, even if it is not a primary life. It seems the question is not really a question of intensity, but perhaps more of intention, ie, the particular focus of the Soul in a given lifetime.....?
Peace,
Ellen
Hi Steve (and everyone else) :),
To pick up on part of what you discussed regarding progressions of mars, if the lifetime is
a primary lifetime signified by mars and pluto aspects, but the mars is retrograde and continues
to be for much of the life by progression, what does this signify? Does this mean the individual will be repeating dynamics in regards to mars in order to resolve the movement across the evolutionary gate at which they are born?
For example, if an individual has mars/pluto at 45 degree aspect natally it indicates the transition
from new phase into cresent phase is occurring and it is a primary lifetime. Yet if the mars is retrograde
at birth and continues to be by progression for much of the lifetime, then does that mean that it will function more like a new phase aspect? And if that is the case, how would that serve the resolution of the movement into the cresent phase, which is the intention of that aspect natally ?
Thanks (to anyone) for any thoughts about this matter.
Hi JJ
Quote from: JJ on Oct 08, 2010, 06:06 PM
if the lifetime is a primary lifetime signified by mars and pluto aspects, but the mars is retrograde and continues to be for much of the life by progression, what does this signify? Does this mean the individual will be repeating dynamics in regards to mars in order to resolve the movement across the evolutionary gate at which they are born?
For example, if an individual has mars/pluto at 45 degree aspect natally it indicates the transition
from new phase into cresent phase is occurring and it is a primary lifetime. Yet if the mars is retrograde
at birth and continues to be by progression for much of the lifetime, then does that mean that it will function more like a new phase aspect? And if that is the case, how would that serve the resolution of the movement into the cresent phase, which is the intention of that aspect natally ?
Your questions are good ones. I can't give you definitive answers. I doubt the movement is as linear as we might think of it as, because nothing ever seems to be as linear as we picture it as. I suggest considering it symbolically - what might it symbolize? Retrograde is always the R words - redo, renew, review. A person could be born before Mars turns retro and it would be direct in natal and go retro by progression during their life. Or they could be born with Mars retro and Mars go direct by progression during their life. Or they could be born with Mars retro by progression for the entire life. These are going to be distinct conditions for that Soul. Some of it undoubtedly relates to where that Soul was prior to the present life.
Rather than me stating my thoughts, perhaps it makes sense for people who are interested in this topic to present some thoughts on what Mars retro by progression might mean in those 3 scenarios. What are some reasons a Soul might choose to be born with one of those signatures? (Perhaps someone can come up with a real chart that reflects one of those conditions.)
Steve
Quote from: Ellen on Oct 08, 2010, 12:35 PM
Steve's Quote:
What came to me is, a primary lifetime is an evolutionary gateway lifetime. That is what the aspect between Pluto and Mars represents. That aspect is either culminating (balsamic qualities) like a Crescent phase square, or beginning (new phase qualities) like a First Quarter square. They are gateways into the next phase of that Soul's development. Because they relate to new orientations, in the case of stressful aspects at least, there is going to be inner tension and resistance to the intended changes. That resistance will be within the Soul itself, not just the personality. Thus it may take extra effort to move through the transition.
Hi Steve,
Thanks for this. Thinking of primary lives as a gateway for the Soul is really helpful. I can definitely understand the difference. And I can now also understand how people going through subsidiary lives may also be working very hard in their current life, even if it is not a primary life. It seems the question is not really a question of intensity, but perhaps more of intention, ie, the particular focus of the Soul in a given lifetime.....?Peace,
Ellen
Hi Steve,
Just want to make sure you saw this question (highlighted in blue) at the end of my post and that you agree with how I have characterized the difference between a primary life and a subsidiary life.
Thanks,
Ellen
Quote from: Lucius on Oct 07, 2010, 10:28 PM
Ellen - long ago I figured the primary life issue was something I'd not fully understand - in theory, but not in a cohesive fashion. I completely 'ditto' your questions! ;D
I'm apparently in a primary life - it feels I'm not getting anywhere. Although I've decided the idea of 'getting anywhere' is a counter-productive attitude. So, I simply exist & feel like I'm waiting (I sound so taurus south node right now). However, this life may seem somewhat 'easy' (thus far) simply because so many lives have been full of trauma - ? - perhaps that is part of it, or can be, a 'primary' is the time to 'sift' and for others
it is more of a 'reaping' or even 'sowing'. Hmmm. My guess is the answer will be, as it is usually, rather relative. But, I'm anxious for a reply to your questions myself.
Hi Lucius, Steve, All,
Just wondering if, perhaps, given the idea of a primary life as a gateway, that this feeling of "not getting anywhere" might perhaps be characteristic of a primary life as opposed to a subsidiary life....? I know, Steve, that you don't feel yourself to be an expert and may not really be able to answer this question, but I am curious what your sense would be. I found your answer above to be quite helpful. Thiss is just my way of going at it from a different angle to clarify any misconceptions I may have. Hope you don't mind.
Lucius, thanks for your thoughtful response to my query.
Peace,
Ellen
Hi All,
Let me jump into this. Ellen asks: "It seems the question is not really a question of intensity, but perhaps more of intention, ie, the particular focus of the Soul in a given lifetime.."
*******************************
It is not a question of intensity at all. It is all about the intention for the non-primary life which is simply continuing to actualize, evolve, whatever the original intentions are for the current evolutionary cycle that the Soul is living out. It takes many lives for this to happen.
*******************************
JJ asks about the retrograde symbolism of a primary life as symbolized, in the example, of a Mars semi-square Pluto where Mars in retrograde. "to pick up on part of what you discussed regarding progressions of mars, if the lifetime is a primary lifetime signified by mars and pluto aspects, but the mars is retrograde and continues to be for much of the life by progression, what does this signify? Does this mean the individual will be repeating dynamics in regards to mars in order to resolve the movement across the evolutionary gate at which they are born?"
*********************************
The answer is yes. The intent of the retrograde as an archetype is to relive, redo, repeat as Steve pointed out. And the intention within that, the reason for that, is to INDIVIDUATE. Any retrograde planet either by birth, or going retrograde in the context of a lifetime, is not only to repeat, relive, and redo, which can have many reasons, but one of the core reasons is to individuate. It accelerates the evolutionary process of individuation. Thus the Soul desires to withdraw from ANY external circumstance or condition that is attempting define, through expectations, how the archetype of the planet that is retro, at birth, progression, or transit, how that archetype (planet)is 'meant' be to actualized or lived out. And that is because the Soul is desiring to individuate it's function which, in turn, allows for an acceleration of the Soul's development because of the effort to individuate. In it's own way it ignites a deep feeling in the Soul that says 'not this, not that, so what is it' ?
**********************************************************************
"For example, if an individual has mars/pluto at 45 degree aspect natally it indicates the transition
from new phase into cresent phase is occurring and it is a primary lifetime. Yet if the mars is retrograde
at birth and continues to be by progression for much of the lifetime, then does that mean that it will function more like a new phase aspect? And if that is the case, how would that serve the resolution of the movement into the cresent phase, which is the intention of that aspect natally ?"
**************************************************************************
Yes, it will function more like a new phase aspect in the sense that there is the underlying intention to individuate. Thus, the Soul will continue to initiate a diversity of experiences that all correlate to the new evolutionary intentions of the Soul, a new cycle of evolutionary development, with the INTENTION, crescent phase, of actualizing specific forms that allow for that individuation of the Soul to be actualized. And once those forms are discovered, realized, actualized there will continue to be an ongoing individuation, 'not this, not that', until those forms truly reflect the unique individuality of the Soul.
***************************************************************************
God Bless, Rad
Hi Ellen,
"not getting anywhere" might perhaps be characteristic of a primary life as opposed to a subsidiary life....
********************
No this is not a common psychological state or feeling. That statement would be specific to the individuality of any given Soul, and the causative factors or reasons for such a state or feeling.
*********************
God Bless, Rad
Hi Rad,
Thanks so much for your answers. I hope you don't mind me asking one more question. It occurred to me as I was reading your responses that it might be possible, and perhaps advisable, to consider the non-primary lives within the context of the prior primary life intentions that were most recently lived. Indeed, perhaps this is the entire intention of the specific way in which JWG approaches of the aspects in general - the 8 primary and then grouping the minor aspects according to the primary aspect which they fall under....?
Thanks for your patience, Rad.
Ellen
Hi Ellen,
Yes, that is exactly what JWG meant and taught.
God Bless, Rad
Thanks for your question Ellen. It really illuminated for me how the secondary lifetimes are "nested" into the intentions created during the primary lifetimes. Something I hadn't consciously put together before, but was starting to notice.
I apologize for getting into the mars retrograde tangent here under this topic, but have a few more questions regarding this matter.
Rad, to clarify a little further regarding the retrograde function, you said: Thus the Soul desires to withdraw from ANY external circumstance or condition that is attempting to define, through expectations, how the archetype of the planet that is retro, at birth, progression, or transit, how that archetype (planet)is 'meant' be to actualized or lived out. And that is because the Soul is desiring to individuate it's function which, in turn, allows for an acceleration of the Soul's development because of the effort to individuate.
Does this mean that once the individual has reached some degree of individuation within a certain area (I understand that it is an ongoing process) that they would no longer have to withdraw from situations with expectations because they would already own their sense of how they want to accomplish, do or express themselves in that arena? So the expectations may still be there, but as long as they could express the aspect of themselves or own it, the expectations would no longer require them to withdraw?
It seems that until someone has individuated and found their own way, so to speak, the process of withdrawing occurs because it provides an opportunity to reflect and then move forwards towards something that is more suited. But once they have individuated and gained some sense of "their way," there also would need to be some ability to be integrated within the forms and expectations of society, of jobs, of communities etc while still maintaining whatever individuation has occurred, if the intentions of the chart and their evolutionary stage required them to function within society. In other words, withdrawal could mean emotional or intellectual withdrawal as well as actual physical withdrawal from an experience? Or am I misunderstanding?
Hi JJ,
Yes, you have understood it correctly. This is exactly how the retrograde archetype operates.
God Bless, Rad
I'll go through these posts slowly - things are coming together. Thanks!
I would like to say, in my 'case', the feeling is that the primary life is like coming up for air - being aware of certain things that I did not/could not in prior lives for various reasons. However, my feeling that not much is happening - to clarify - is the realization that my 'knowledge' is intellectual (or on the surface appears to be) and not experiential - or not entirely. So, I'm sloughing off old ways of knowing - and trying to discover what I already know & let that lead me. It's a slow process. Meanwhile I try to be grateful - and keep perspective, the bottom line. The responses here & input helped me to understand what I was meaning the other night! Thanks.
Quote from: Lucius on Oct 09, 2010, 10:37 PM
I'll go through these posts slowly - things are coming together. Thanks!
I would like to say, in my 'case', the feeling is that the primary life is like coming up for air - being aware of certain things that I did not/could not in prior lives for various reasons. However, my feeling that not much is happening - to clarify - is the realization that my 'knowledge' is intellectual (or on the surface appears to be) and not experiential - or not entirely. So, I'm sloughing off old ways of knowing - and trying to discover what I already know & let that lead me. It's a slow process. Meanwhile I try to be grateful - and keep perspective, the bottom line. The responses here & input helped me to understand what I was meaning the other night! Thanks.
Hi Lucius,
Thanks for this! It has really given me great insight into my own experience..
Peace,
Ellen
Steve wrote: What came to me is, a primary lifetime is an evolutionary gateway lifetime. That is what the aspect between Pluto and Mars represents. That aspect is either culminating (balsamic qualities) like a Crescent phase square, or beginning (new phase qualities) like a First Quarter square. They are gateways into the next phase of that Soul's development. Because they relate to new orientations, in the case of stressful aspects at least, there is going to be inner tension and resistance to the intended changes. That resistance will be within the Soul itself, not just the personality. Thus it may take extra effort to move through the transition.
Maybe this is a leap, but I read something in Barbara Brennan's book, Hands of Light that made me think of primary lives and the possible potential that lay in the work that is done in those lives. Here are the 2 quotes:
"Einstein's space-time continuum state the apparent linearity of events depends on the observer. We are all too ready to accept past lives as literal physical lives that have happened in the past in a physical setting like this one. [italics in original]. Our past lives may be happening right now in a different space-time continuum. Many of us have experienced "past lives" and feel their effects as if they were a short time ago. But we rarely speak of how our future lives are affecting the one we are experiencing right here andnow. As we live our life NOW, it becomes more likely that we are rewriting our personal history, both past and future. [Italics in original]. (p. 24, 1987)
"...but essentially the physicists are saying there is no such thing as a "thing." What we used to call "things" are really "events" or paths that might become events. (p. 25, 1987).
When I read these 2 quotes it occurred to me that perhaps primary lives, as gateways, are lives in which we can truly impact, positively or not, the quality/direction/etc. of our pasts and futures, and that also, that these are the lives in which the shape of the "event" we are becoming takes shape. The secondary lives would then be lives in which we are living out the ramifications of the preceeding primary life.
I'm curious if others know anything about this or have thoughts on it. I am currently in a primary life myself and I remember early on in my self-healing work having the very profound feeling that the healing that I was doing, assuming I could really do it, would allow those in the past (I was thinking in terms of literal biological ancestors, especially those already deceased) would have a chance to heal...
Peace,
Ellen
Hi All,
I have another question, this one more directly connected to the EA paradigm. I was thinking about orbs and wondering how that related to aspects denoting primary lives. Essentially, this brought up 2 questions for me.
1) Are both waxing AND waning aspects considered?
2) What are the allowed orbs?
Beneath these 2 questions is this: it struck me that if we are using orbs of any significance, and if we are using both waxing and waning aspects, then we would have to be looking at MORE than one lifetime devoted to any one primary life. But this is not corrrect as far as I know. Only one lifetime is given to a primary life. Can anyone answer the above 2 questions AND explain this paradox?
Peace,
Ellen
Hi Ellen,
Quote from: Ellen on Nov 08, 2010, 03:55 PM
Hi All,
I have another question, this one more directly connected to the EA paradigm. I was thinking about orbs and wondering how that related to aspects denoting primary lives. Essentially, this brought up 2 questions for me.
1) Are both waxing AND waning aspects considered?
**********************************************************************
Yes
******************************************************************
2) What are the allowed orbs?
*********************************************************************
The normal orbs for specific aspects, i.e. ten degrees for a squares, oppositions, conjunctions, etc, etc, etc ...........
*********************************************************************
Beneath these 2 questions is this: it struck me that if we are using orbs of any significance, and if we are using both waxing and waning aspects, then we would have to be looking at MORE than one lifetime devoted to any one primary life. But this is not corrrect as far as I know. Only one lifetime is given to a primary life. Can anyone answer the above 2 questions AND explain this paradox?
*************************************************************************
There is no paradox at all. In fact there is no such thing as having just 'one' primary life ... it is a series of lives as the evolution within as aspect, i.e. a waxing or waning square, demonstrates.
*************************************************************************
God Bless, Rad
Quote from: Rad on Nov 09, 2010, 06:40 AM
Hi Ellen,
Quote from: Ellen on Nov 08, 2010, 03:55 PM
Hi All,
I have another question, this one more directly connected to the EA paradigm. I was thinking about orbs and wondering how that related to aspects denoting primary lives. Essentially, this brought up 2 questions for me.
1) Are both waxing AND waning aspects considered?
**********************************************************************
Yes
******************************************************************
2) What are the allowed orbs?
*********************************************************************
The normal orbs for specific aspects, i.e. ten degrees for a squares, oppositions, conjunctions, etc, etc, etc ...........
*********************************************************************
Beneath these 2 questions is this: it struck me that if we are using orbs of any significance, and if we are using both waxing and waning aspects, then we would have to be looking at MORE than one lifetime devoted to any one primary life. But this is not corrrect as far as I know. Only one lifetime is given to a primary life. Can anyone answer the above 2 questions AND explain this paradox?
*************************************************************************
There is no paradox at all. In fact there is no such thing as having just 'one' primary life ... it is a series of lives as the evolution within as aspect, i.e. a waxing or waning square, demonstrates.
*************************************************************************
God Bless, Rad
Thanks for clearing that up, Rad. I somehow had it in my head that only one primary life was lived per associated aspect. What you wrote makes more sense, given the other 2 questions/answers.
Peace,
Ellen
Hello Everyone,
I have just read p.210 on the Pluto II book and am a little confused..
In the second paragraph on that page JWG says, "Thus, since there are eight primary phases, the phasal relationship between Mars and Pluto correlates to how many lives have preceded the current one that we are living relative to these intentions. These are primary lives...thus, if the Mars/Pluto phase is First Quarter, for example, this would correlate to an individual who has had two previous lifetimes working on the main karmic/evolutionary axis.."
Then in the third paragraph JWG says, "A primary life can be determined when Mars is in one of the following aspects to Pluto: conjunction, semi-square, square, trine, sesquiquadrate, inconjunct, or opposition."
So, if you don't mind me using my own chart as an example to phrase my question, this is my confusion:
My Mars/Pluto phase is gibbious, which means according to JWG's first paragraph above, I have had 3 previous primary lives working on my evolutionary axis. The aspect between my Mars and Pluto is an inconjunct which means this is a primary life. So does this mean this is my 4th primary life working on my current chart dynamics? And this being the case, can there be any number of primary lives working on the same evolutionary dynamics?
Also, the exact aspect between the Mars/Pluto happens to be 154 degrees. So this aspect fits within the orb of an inconjunct (which I believe is 5 degrees). However, 154 degrees also happens to be a triseptile which is not a primary life. So in a case like this, would it be correct to analyze the aspect based on the inconjunct or the triseptile? Would this perhaps mean that I am at the very end of the 4th primary life and am transitioning to a subsidiary triseptile lifetime?
Thanks and blessings,
Heidi
Hi Heidi,
"I have just read p.210 on the Pluto II book and am a little confused..
In the second paragraph on that page JWG says, "Thus, since there are eight primary phases, the phasal relationship between Mars and Pluto correlates to how many lives have preceded the current one that we are living relative to these intentions. These are primary lives...thus, if the Mars/Pluto phase is First Quarter, for example, this would correlate to an individual who has had two previous lifetimes working on the main karmic/evolutionary axis.."
Then in the third paragraph JWG says, "A primary life can be determined when Mars is in one of the following aspects to Pluto: conjunction, semi-square, square, trine, sesquiquadrate, inconjunct, or opposition."
So, if you don't mind me using my own chart as an example to phrase my question, this is my confusion:
My Mars/Pluto phase is gibbious, which means according to JWG's first paragraph above, I have had 3 previous primary lives working on my evolutionary axis. The aspect between my Mars and Pluto is an inconjunct which means this is a primary life. So does this mean this is my 4th primary life working on my current chart dynamics?"
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Yes, if that aspect is actually an inconjunct. This is where the question of orbs becomes so important.
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"And this being the case, can there be any number of primary lives working on the same evolutionary dynamics?"
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No, but there can be any number of subsidiary lives working on the core evolutionary dynamics.
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"Also, the exact aspect between the Mars/Pluto happens to be 154 degrees. So this aspect fits within the orb of an inconjunct (which I believe is 5 degrees). However, 154 degrees also happens to be a triseptile which is not a primary life. So in a case like this, would it be correct to analyze the aspect based on the inconjunct or the triseptile? Would this perhaps mean that I am at the very end of the 4th primary life and am transitioning to a subsidiary triseptile lifetime?"
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JWG did not use a 5 degree orb for inconjuncts. He used 3 degrees. And that is because of the very triseptile aspect that you are asking about: being so close to the inconjunct aspect. If your Mars/Pluto aspect is exactly 154 degrees equalling a triseptile this would mean that your very last life was a primary one which has lead to your current life being a refinement of that last life where such refinement is symbolized and reflected in the nature of the Gibbous phase triseptile.
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God Bless, Rad
Thanks Rad, much appreciated!
Given there are 8 phases, I'm assuming the maximum number of primary lives for working on the same core evolutionary dynamics are 8 lives?
Blessings,
Heidi
Hi Heidi,
Yes, with many subsidiary lives along the way.
God Bless, Rad
Hi everybody,
I've been meaning to ask this for a long time but I kept thinking that I must surely be missing something since nobody else had the same question.
So I'd like to ask a very basic question: if a primary life unfolds when Pluto/Mars are in any of the following aspects: conjunction, semi-square, square, trine, sesquisquare, inconjunct or opposition, then how is it that we talk about only 8 primary lives?
If we can identify a primary life when the aspect between Pluto and Mars is (not taking into account the orbs for each aspect): 0 degrees, 45 degrees, 90 degrees, 120 degrees, 135 degrees, 150 degrees, 180 degrees, 210 degrees, 225 degrees, 240 degrees, 270 degrees and 315 degrees, it seems to me that there should be more than 8 primary lives.
Anyway, I'm sure I'm missing something here, but I really can't seem to find my way around this.
Many thanks once again for the great opportunity to learn from everybody on the MB. Although I haven't participated lately in the discussions, I've been following closely and learning so much !
All the best,
Serban
Hi Serban,
That's because you are thinking in a linear way as in the Soul must move through each of the aspects that you have listed relative to primary lives. It does not work that way. All depends on the individual dynamics within the Soul that then correlates to the TYPE OF ASPECT that it will have within one of 8 lunar phases that correlate with a primary life. So, in other words, it's not linear which is why you are asking about it in this way. There can of course be many subsidiary lives that take place within the 8 phases.
God Bless, Rad
Hi Rad,
Thank you as always for your patience in dealing with my left brain approach to things, I really appreciate it.
One of the reasons why I thought things worked like that was something I read on the MB archive and misinterpreted.
QuoteWhen Pluto and Mars are in balsamic conjunction, can we assume that there was no balsamic semisquare direct aspect before?......since otherwise the current one would be primary life #9....
Jeffrey: No, the balsamic semi-square would have to have occured before ...
In light of what you just clarified and Jeffrey's answer from the MB archive, would it then be correct to say that: (i) when we see Mars/Pluto in a specific phase/aspect we can assume that the Soul has gone through all the experiences associated with the preceding phases and aspects; but (ii) such experiences which have occurred prior to the current lifetime do not necessarily have to be reflected in the Pluto/Mars relationship in the birthcharts for the previous lives, because such experiences can be reflected in many other ways which, as you once said to me in another thread, are not linear but holistic (aspects to other planets, sign and house locations etc.).
In this way, the phasal relationship would reflect where one starts off in the current lifetime with respect to the core evolutionary intentions and we can deduce from that starting point what the past was that has lead to the current lifetime starting line. However, although the types of experiences associated with the aspects that precede the current one must have occurred in order for the Soul to get to the current starting point, this does not mean that there has to have been a lifetime when Mars/Pluto were in each aspect that precedes the current aspect. For instance, if we see a first quarter square between Mars and Pluto, this means that the Soul has gone through the experiences associated with all the aspects that precede the first quarter square without however having to be born with Mars/Pluto in each of these aspects. Is this correct?
Going back to the 8 primary lives, the phasal relationship between Mars and Pluto in any given lifetime will be represented by a number of X degrees that falls somewhere in one of the 8 phases and when that number of degrees corresponds to a conjunction, semisquare, square, trine etc. we can deduce that the Soul is working directly on the evolutionary intentions reflected by the natal Pluto. Furthermore, the notion of primary life should be understood, as you said, as a series of lifetimes, as demonstrated by the orbs associated with the aspects that correlate to a primary life.
On a separate note, the same post I found on the MB archive contained the following answer by Jeffrey:
QuoteHi Jeffrey, I am working on comprehending the Pluto/Mars symbols for the 8 primary lifetimes to work out a specific evolutionary intent. Since it is a specific intent, Pluto would always be in the same house, but could the Nodes
and their rulers vary throughout the 8 primary lives? Jeffrey: Yes ..
This is a bit confusing to me because in light of what I've learned so far I don't think that Jeffrey actually meant that Pluto will show up in the same house in each lifetime until the evolutionary intentions symbolized by that house are completed.
Rad, I remember the birthcharts that you so kindly posted in another thread (thank you once again for that) https://forum.schoolofevolutionaryastrology.com/index.php/topic,408.msg7341.html#msg7341 which showed the same Soul in two successive lifetimes and it made total sense for me to see that for instance Pluto in Virgo in one life would turn up as Pluto in the 6th in the next life. So is it possible that Jeffrey: (i) focused only on the final part of the question (i.e. the part regarding the nodes) and confirmed that they may indeed vary from one lifetime to another; and (ii) did not mean to say that Pluto will always be in the same house until the evolutionary intentions corresponding to that house are completed?
All the best,
Serban
Hi Serban,
The answer to these questions have already been answered. I would suspect that the quotes from Jeffrey that you have cited from his old message board occurred because he must have been very tired, and not as attentive as he would otherwise normally be. It's not what he taught.
God Bless, Rad
Quote from: Rad on Jul 07, 2011, 06:35 AM
Hi Serban,
The answer to these questions have already been answered. I would suspect that the quotes from Jeffrey that you have cited from his old message board occurred because he must have been very tired, and not as attentive as he would otherwise normally be. It's not what he taught.
God Bless, Rad
Hi Rad,
I was just trying to see if I have understood things correctly, so I apologize if I restated something that was dealt with before on the message board. I did that because it is usually very helpful for me to phrase an idea in several ways in order to fully assimilate it. I hope I was not out of place by doing that.
One question about what you wrote: did you refer to both the quotes I cited, or just the last one (which, as you pointed out does seem like Jeffrey being very tired)? I am asking because I am not sure whether you meant to say that the same applies to the first quote, because this first quote, at least as I interpreted things in my post above, seems to reinforce and confirm what has been discussed here.
Thank you once again for your help.
All the best,
Serban
Hi Serban,
I would have to go back and look at the entire sequence of that question and answer by Jeffrey from the old mb because it seems you have chopped off some of it ... I don't have the time to do that. Beyond that it isn't necessary to do as you have already been given the correct information about all of this. The answers you have been given are in fact what JWG actually taught.
God Bless, Rad
Hi Rad,
You're right..thank you once again for all your help.
All the best,
Serban