Old EA Message Board

I have a question about birthtimes in EA.  They say that we choose our birthchart...and I do believe that.  I don't truly KNOW it...but I DO believe it...if that makes sense.

Anyhoo...my issue is this: Since pretty much EVERYTHING in EA is based around the house position of Pluto....this means...and correct me if I'm wrong...that the baby actually determines exactly when it will be born.  House positions change every 2 hours...so.... I guess it's tough for me to fathom a newborn determining when to actually be birthed.

Is there some soul knowledge in that child that could actually allow it to control when it is born?

I hope this doesn't sound stupid...   LoL

Hi Shawn,





Thanks for your question.

It is the SOUL that determines the birth-time and all other conditions such as culture, society, parents, friends, etc. that reflect the evolutionary and karmic needs, desires, necessities, intentions and lessons.

Desire that is unfulfilled correlates to the next life in which the Soul incarnates in order to try to actualize that unfulfilled desire in some way.

Here's a great quote from Rad:

Conditioning patterns created by the Soul

The "˜conditions' that any given Soul creates for its life, in any life, are the conditions that the Soul needs in order to further its own ongoing evolutionary intentions: whatever those conditions are. And those conditions of course affect the Soul: intentionally so. It is the very "˜effect' of whatever those conditions are that serve to advance the Soul's evolutionary intentions. All Souls are "˜affected' by the conditions of its lives. Even the most evolved of all Souls start off as children. And the conditions of their births that they have chosen "˜affect' them as they would any child. For example the great Yogananda chose to come through a mother who loved him dearly, and he loved her dearly, yet she died when he was very young: four or five years of age. For him at that age this was total trauma. Yet, at that age, he determined within himself, since his earthly mother was no longer present, to find his "˜Divine Mother.' And so at that age he took himself into an attic space in his home and sat there with the determination not to budge from that spot until the Divine Mother revealed herself to him from within. And She did. Yogananda had a 10th house Pluto conjunct Neptune which were both in opposition to his Venus in the 4th. The perfect symbolism for the "˜conditions' of his childhood, and how those conditions affected his own ongoing evolutionary journey. (Rad)


Your question:  Is there some soul knowledge in that child that could actually allow it to control when it is born?

I think Rad or Skywalker can answer this one.


Cheers,

Linda

Thanks Linda...  }:o)

It's a question that's been bugging me.  I like that quote by Sri

Hi Shawn,

It's my belief (i don't know anything for a fact either), that the soul, in conjuction with its guides, together determine the time of birth and plan everything out.  Keep in mind, the baby is a soul.  I'm not sure, but I think the baby is more conscious of "everything" up until its actual birth and the veil of forgetfulness does not come into play until the baby leaves the womb and takes its first breath. I think I've read things here and there leading to this belief.

Anyone else?

cat

Hi Shawn Rollins,

In my view it´s not about the Soul choosing the time of birth at all as the chart wont change anything for the Soul experiencing life.  In my understanding the Soul will be born at a time which will promote/support it´s ongoing evolution and the chart will simply reflect the Soul and it´s evolutionary intentions. The quote by Yukteswar sums it up pretty well.

All the best

Why do you say the chart won't change the life experience?  Pluto's house position changes everything...and that is based on the exact time of birth...

Maybe it's just a matter of fact of synchronicity...? 

Hi Shawn Rollins,

Because the chart does not create or determine reality, it reflects it.

All the best

I wonder if Patricia Walsh is around (or away for the holidays) as I bet she knows a bit about this subject from her regression work. I'm so sure that our souls and our guides, and possibly other higher beings, work together planning the next life so that we can best have the experiences we need to balance our karma and evolve. Of course the chart does not cause anything, but reflects our choice and serves as a blueprint of sorts.

Shawn, I'd recommend reading Patricia's book and Michael Newton's books:

Understanding Karmic Complexes

http://www.amazon.com/Understanding-Karmic-Complexes-Patricia-Walsh/dp/1902405439

Destiny of Souls

http://www.amazon.com/Destiny-Souls-Studies-Between-Lives/dp/1567184995

Both of these offer up some information about what happens between lives.  They are both good reads.

Hi Shawn,

I also had this question, how is it possible for a baby to determine it's birth time? While I can't give you a definitive answer, I can share where I got to with it. It was a long time ago so my facts may be a bit approximate.

I researched a lot of medical and scientific literature and found that from a week or two before birth the baby starts tuning into the Moon's phases, and via it's monitoring of those phases sometime adjustments in it's own inner rhythms and functioning happened. Also that via various mechanisms (fluids, hormones etc) the baby can actually exert some control over the timing of its birth, either delaying it or bringing it forward.

I also remember reading somewhere else information about how on a physics (particle) level the baby is in control of it's birth process, but can't remember any details about that.

I came across all this information in bits and pieces over quite a long period of time, each bit filling in some part of the puzzle for me. Eventually it got to a point where I could see it was not only possible that a baby could physically control it's birth time, but also very likely that it did so. I was only checking this all out for myself so never kept a track of links or records of where each bit of info came from, it ranged from nursing textbooks, scientific papers, medical articles etc - scattered all over, so I can't refer you to these sources unfortunately.

But I had this same question and although I never got total "proof" down to the last detail I was satisfied enough that it was highly probable that babies could directly affect their birth time - because they interacted with and affected the entire birthing process in so many ways.

blessings Upasika

Hmm... I wonder how the soul would be impacted by scheduled c-sections and inductions where the birth time is often arbitrarily chosen?  Would the soul have a say in this matter by choosing the parents or the scenario where this is destined? 

This is beautiful.  It is sooo what I wanted..some real discussion on this topic...

Here's a link to a similar discussion:

http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=7839


This reponse by stacy5271 is interesting:

QuoteI'd like to post in agreement with River. I've spent a fair amount of time recently reviewing the ways that the charts of my family members are similar (signs, aspects, house placements etc...) and I have found that my daughter (whose birth ended up being a planned c-section due to breech placement) fits very nicely into the rest of the family.

I actually was in disagreement with my doctor in regards to the "due date" (because I had been trying to get pregnant and charting, I knew the exact date which was off by several weeks from the doctor's calculations). In the scheme of things, my daughter was technically "early".

Like I said, it is amazing how she shares so much from an astrological profile with the rest of us. I would venture to say that she shares more with us than my son who was born when he darn well felt like it (he too shares astrological traits with us and even directly with her).

After looking closely at all of this, my conclusion is that she was born at her right time.

I mean...lets get real here. The way I see it, EA is a belief system...and one that makes soooo much sense, it's scary.  We have real existential issues at hand, right?  Why am I here? What am I doing?  REAL LIFE STUFF, right?.  I am 98% sure of everything EA represents...but that nagging 2 percent...for me...deals with the question I posed..and I'm looking for a little bit of clarity.

I do believe that there is synchronicity in birth, and I'm thinking that I may have to leave it at that...

And yes...my questions are emanating from the Scorpio part of me...which is quite heavy..  }:o)

Cat...I'll look into Patricia's work that you mentioned.  Those issues are a real part of my confusion....because who remembers what was happening before you're born?  I have no recollection. While I DO feel I was here before...i don't have concrete memories...they're like dreams...

Hi Shawn,

I don't think we are meant to remember what came before. If we were born remembering all that came before, we would be too overwhelmed by past life trauma etc to move forward. Rather than focusing on this life, we would likely be focused on the past which prevent us from getting anywhere. I think that is even why we are designed to be born and die. If "life" (physical life) were infinite, we wouldn't evolve very much. We would settle into routines and evolve very slowly (not that we evolve very fast as it is).

That said, it is possible to tune into the past and the afterlife. Some people are born with psychic abilities that allow them to do this naturally, hypnosis and regression are another way, accessing the Akashic Records is another. Everyone has the potential to tap into the past but few have the skills or training.

I'm not sure, but I assume tapping into these things is something brief and fleeting. I don't think anyone can tune into someone's entire past. You can just get pieces, usually only what you need to know at the time.

I think when we are in "the afterlife" we are capable of remembering it all. maybe not all at once, but I believe we spend our time reviewing our past in an attempt to learn from it.

I am sure that Patricia Walsh could add to this conversation as she has regressed many people and heard many stories.  I am also sure that Rad knows quite a bit about all of this. If you read Ari's recent post it is apparent that Rad has the ability to tap into the Akashic Records or whatever you prefer to call it. He has done so many times in the past. Ari's post is one of several examples.  Although I have seen him post about other people's past lives, I don't think I've ever seen him post about what goes on in the afterlife, but that doesn't mean that he doesn't know.

The thing about EA being a belief system is that belief systems evolve and some day the belief system that EA is based upon (Natural Law) will become a consensus belief system. By that time I am sure someone else will come along and reveal some other aspect of "the truth" or "reality" or whatever, that we are not ready for at this point in time. Ea makes so much sense, yes, but there is so much more. That I am sure.

Quote from: Shawn Rollins on Nov 30, 2014, 06:13 PM
I mean...lets get real here. The way I see it, EA is a belief system...and one that makes soooo much sense, it's scary.  We have real existential issues at hand, right?  Why am I here? What am I doing?  REAL LIFE STUFF, right?.  I am 98% sure of everything EA represents...but that nagging 2 percent...for me...deals with the question I posed..and I'm looking for a little bit of clarity.

I do believe that there is synchronicity in birth, and I'm thinking that I may have to leave it at that...

And yes...my questions are emanating from the Scorpio part of me...which is quite heavy..  }:o)

Hi Shawn,

Further to what Cat has said, one thing perhaps to bear in mind is that all astrology (not just EA) is based on observation and correlation. Since ancient times people were observing that the Moon's rhythms had a predictable correlation to the general success or otherwise of their crops, then later the winning or losing of wars and then accidents & death of royalty were also accurately predicted based on observed correlations.

If we didn't know how electricity worked, we would still use it because it obviously does work, and it's of great benefit. And we wouldn't have doubts about whether it worked or not just because we didn't understand why it worked.

In the case of EA an evaluation of whether to use and/or trust it without knowing the full details of how the time of birth mechanics operate can still be made by just using it and seeing if it works. So many people have done that and they have found it definitely does, it really is accurate and it's certainly beneficial to use it.

Upasika

Quote from: Angie on Nov 30, 2014, 05:02 PM
Hmm... I wonder how the soul would be impacted by scheduled c-sections and inductions where the birth time is often arbitrarily chosen?  Would the soul have a say in this matter by choosing the parents or the scenario where this is destined? 

Hi Angie, Shawn, and everyone here:


I think that the Soul chooses all of those experiences.  Also, the parents choose those experiences too.

What I'm saying basically is that all desire originates from the Soul.  Not "some" but "all" of it.

Here are a few quotes from Jeffrey Wolf Green's Medical Astrology book:

Genetic imprinting, Soul intention

(Q): Can you explain the linkage between genetic/hereditary imprinting and what the Soul has specifically chosen astrologically? What I am having difficulty reconciling is the fact that we choose specific delineations in our birth chart and how that relates with the families we choose. In other words, are there some aspects and such that occur more randomly in accordance with more specific aspects we absolutely choose?

(A): Nothing is random at all in the birth chart. The whole chart correlates with the evolutionary and karmic intentions and necessities of any given Soul. Anything in one's life correlates to one's evolutionary and karmic needs and intentions, including both parents.

We must remember that if we walk up to a corpse and put bread in its mouth, it cannot chew; there must be a consciousness present for it to chew. Thus, the consciousness, psychology, is the determining factor for what is happening in the body.

What is happening in the body is a reflection of the genetic structure that each incarnating Soul 'inherits' from its parents at birth, as the parents, as well as the overall life circumstances, are chosen by the Soul, to promote and facilitate its evolutionary growth, necessities, and karmic issues. Thus, the genetic structure combined with all the prior lives of any Soul that apply to the current life combine in such a way as to determine the total situation of the physical body in any given life.

Posterior pituitary (back part of the pituitary) produces two hormones: Oxytocin. Oxytocin causes milk to be released in nursing mothers and contractions during childbirth: Moon. Antidiuretic hormone (ADH): ADH, also called vasopressin, regulates water balance. If ADH is not secreted in the right amount, this can lead to too much or too little sodium (salt) and water in the bloodstream: Neptune.

Additional Correlations – Pluto ". . . death of the body, and giving birth."

If giving birth correlates to Pluto, being born must correlate to Pluto too.   ???

I'd like to hear what Rad says about all of this.

Thanks for this interesting discussion!


Linda

QuoteIf we didn't know how electricity worked, we would still use it because it obviously does work, and it's of great benefit. And we wouldn't have doubts about whether it worked or not just because we didn't understand why it worked.

- Upasika

Hi Shawn Rollins and everyone else,

EA is not a belief system, there is no indoctrination or any need to believe anything. It is based on actual reality and natural law. EA is an Astrological method that allows the Astrologer to look into the Soul´s evolutionary dynamics, it acknowledges certain dynamics such as reincarnation and the evolution of the Soul  but, these are not beliefs, they are actual reality.

Relative to the birth chart, the Soul doesn´t choose the chart as the Soul is not conditioned by it, therefore why choose it? The chart is simply going to reflect the Soul.
I have had people ask me when it would be a good time to give birth to their baby and I simply say whenever the doctors think best or whenever the baby wants to, as in my view it will not alter anything in the Soul and personality of the baby and, could potentially be a risk to the baby and mother.

An example I like to use is, if you would remove a place from a map of a country"¦ let´s say if we would remove the capital of France, Paris, from the map of France, would it do anything to the actual city or country? No it would not.

Regarding past life memories, most of us do not have the emotional maturity to deal with what we would see if we would remember it all.

In the Neptune thread Rad spoke a little bit about in-between lives and I think he said it´s different for each Soul, depending on the consciousness level. From my understanding, some Souls might not even know they are dead and take some time to figure it out, others may still be very attached to people they loved or their lives in general and wish to hang around too.

Would be great if Rad would go into the between lives phenomena a little more, there are also a couple of things I would like to know. Like what if a Soul doesn´t want to come back to Earth or any other physical place, can it continue its evolution simply from where it is or in other ways?

All the best

Thanks for all the input.  This is a great discussion...  Love it...

Yeah, maybe 'Belief System" isn't the correct term.  I just meant that it holds the keys to why were here... 

"Like what if a Soul doesn´t want to come back to Earth or any other physical place, can it continue its evolution simply from where it is or in other ways?"

-I would like to know the answer to this too.  

From my understanding through reading accounts of people who have had near death experience (as well as people who report knowing this information psychically) our soul undergoes a full life review upon death after entering the causal plane.  The full life, all the associated feelings and emotions we experience as well as how our actions effect others are experienced by our soul in a rapid sequence.  Supposedly this is done alongside our guides and other ascended beings, so we can review and evaluate the life experience together.  Then, we choose the composition of our next life with the help of the ascended beings in order to evolve in the necessary areas.  This would explain why our desires and life path is embedded in our souls, even if we aren't conscious of it.

Souls who are "stuck" in the astral plane choose that experience as well either because they are hanging on to something in the physical plane, ie loved ones, etc, or because they don't realize they are dead yet, or fearful of facing "judgement" from God.  This is why those souls often need help or guidance to cross over, but my understanding is that they are choosing that experience as well, most often due to fear because of their choices.

People who have reported near death experiences have said they were given the option to return to complete unfinished business or they could stay.  Experiencing the life review apparently instills a deep sense of compassion and understanding and explains why these people often return deeply changed from within.  

I have read many accounts about the full life review, and it resonates as truth to me.  I'm curious what those who have done or experienced regressions have to say.

Quote from: Shawn Rollins on Nov 30, 2014, 10:40 AM
I have a question about birthtimes in EA.  They say that we choose our birthchart...and I do believe that.  I don't truly KNOW it...but I DO believe it...if that makes sense.

Anyhoo...my issue is this: Since pretty much EVERYTHING in EA is based around the house position of Pluto....this means...and correct me if I'm wrong...that the baby actually determines exactly when it will be born.  House positions change every 2 hours...so.... I guess it's tough for me to fathom a newborn determining when to actually be birthed.

Is there some soul knowledge in that child that could actually allow it to control when it is born?

I hope this doesn't sound stupid...   LoL

Quote from: Shawn Rollins on Nov 30, 2014, 06:13 PM
I mean...lets get real here. The way I see it, EA is a belief system...and one that makes soooo much sense, it's scary.  We have real existential issues at hand, right?  Why am I here? What am I doing?  REAL LIFE STUFF, right?.  I am 98% sure of everything EA represents...but that nagging 2 percent...for me...deals with the question I posed..and I'm looking for a little bit of clarity.

I do believe that there is synchronicity in birth, and I'm thinking that I may have to leave it at that...

And yes...my questions are emanating from the Scorpio part of me...which is quite heavy..  }:o)

Hi Shawn,
I feel like there are two things happening here:
1) A kind of metaphysical flirtation with the Determinism/ Free Will question...
EA consistently and very clearly advocates the stance toward free will. It is one of the underpinnings of the evolution of the species via human consciousness. #Mars
2) A disconnected picturing of childbirth: Baby plots exit for metaphysical purposes...
Soul=Pluto=DNA. Soul determines DNA. The Soul of the fetus has been connected with both parents prior to conception, to the mother as they become increasingly connected through development. (The water trinity of Moon-Pluto-Neptune correlates with the umbilical cord and placenta.) A constant (read: instantaneous) dialog is taking place with regards to the needs of the fetus. A cocktail of chemicals alert the mother of complete gestation. Hormones shift, the pregnancy maintenance period ends and labor begins. (see: the Medical Thread) The experiences of the mother can often trigger past life traumas (see: Ari's Thread on postpartum psychosis) which can lead to the emergence of sub-personalities, reactionary behaviors, irrational fears, etc. This can factor into the ease/difficulty of birth, again known on a Soul level. Another key aspect of EA: the fallacy of victimization.  

Bottom line: Contact is constant; between time, space, and Soul intention.

I think the faulty logic comes from a thinking that the birth/data/space-time is more powerful and somehow retroactively defines or ignites a Soul that is appropriate for it.

QuoteI guess it's tough for me to fathom a newborn determining when to actually be birthed.

The Soul comes in at the instant the solar system reflects the reciprocal evolutionary intentions.

Using the ocean wave analogy:
Womb-Ocean-Totality of Consciousness
Labor-Ocean currents and swells-separating from Source
Birth-Wave-Individuated Consciousness/ Individual being

The child is breaking through to the surface, up to the the air, the sun, the planets, the forces of gravity, and all the other laws of physics, riding a pulsation emanating from the same Source that pulsates through the forces that meet their first breath: mother, the Earth, the Universe.

You can lean on a belief of synchronicity, but I would recommend, due diligence:
http://schoolofevolutionaryastrology.com/school/medical-astrology-book (http://schoolofevolutionaryastrology.com/school/medical-astrology-book)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kashmir_Shaivism#Spanda (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kashmir_Shaivism#Spanda)

God bless,

Katherine

Hey,

A child is born on that day and at that hour when the celestial rays
are in mathematical harmony with his or her individual karma.
The resulting horoscope is a challenging portrait revealing
his or her unalterable past, and its probable future result.
But the natal chart can be rightly interpreted only by
women and men of intuitive wisdom:
these are few.

~ Swami Sri Yukteswar
Guru of the great Paramahansa Yogananda


It is all summed up by Yukteswar. Every life the Soul has, or will have, has now, is CAUSED by itself. The totality of the conditions in each life, all circumstances, are determined and caused by the Soul relative to it's ongoing evolutionary needs, and the karma it has created (action/ reaction) from it's previous lives. Thus, the Soul is entirely RESPONSIBLE for itself, and that which it has created for itself. It is not a VICTIM to anything: there is no one else, or nothing else, that is responsible for it's moment of birth. The Soul has free will to make the choices that it makes relative to the inherent limitations of whatever the life conditions it has created for itself in each life. Those choices are the determinants, reflected in the Soul's desires, for that which is created, and will be created because of. Birth, and rebirth, directly correlate to Pluto, Scorpio, and the 8th House: The Soul.

The evolutionary journey of the Soul is a function of the desires within the Soul. This does not require 'belief', or a system of 'beliefs'. It is natural law itself that only needs to be VALIDATED, NOT BELIEVED IN. If the Soul creates in a given life being abandoned by another for whatever reasons the Soul does not need to 'believe' that happened. It happened, and only needs to be validated; not 'believed' in. Evolutionary astrology as brought forth by JWG at the direction of Yuketswar is a form of natural law that allows us to understand the 'why' of what we, as Souls, have created.

Most Souls do not have conscious access to their prior life memories for one simple reason: if they did they would become so consumed in what and what did not happen that they would not get on with the business of the current life. As the Soul evolves within the natural spiritual state of evolution such memories do in fact occur relative to the capacity of the Soul to 'hold them'. Hold them here means to understand to continuity of the prior lives that lead to each life, and why. Hold them means, of course, such knowledge/ memories can be overwhelming if not yet evolutionarily ready. Such capacity then manifests as the ability to 'see' the prior lives of others in as much detail as needed. 

God Bless, Rad

 ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

QuoteThe thing about EA being a belief system is that belief systems evolve and some day the belief system that EA is based upon (Natural Law) will become a consensus belief system. By that time I am sure someone else will come along and reveal some other aspect of "the truth" or "reality" or whatever, that we are not ready for at this point in time. Ea makes so much sense, yes, but there is so much more. That I am sure.

When I used the term "belief system" here it was more a matter of convenience as what else is Natural Law other than Natural Law? What I was eluding to here was the evolution of consciousness. More and more people are becoming aware of Natural Law and it is slowly but surely displacing many outdated and irrelevant religious beliefs of the past. Someday the consensus will be aware of Natural Law and someday mankind will be introduced to other aspects of the ultimate reality that we are not presently conscious of. That's what I was trying to say here.

Here is a link for anyone interested in watching videos:

https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=youtube%20Yukteswar

Once again,

Thank you all so much for the input.  Now my head is about to explode!  (In a good way)  LOL

I'm going print all this stuff out and reread it all...  So much to absorb and reflect on

Hi Shawn,

Great discussion ~ with lots of different pov's!

Rad explains the main EA reasoning.

Cheers,

Linda

Hi--From my own gestation I will share what I remember to be true and validated many years later shortly before my mother passed.  When I was in my 40's in a group regression (my very first), with a shock I was suddenly in my mother's womb, very cognizant of what was going on.  The overriding emotion was fear followed by a collapse into a strong sense of futility.  I remember collapsing into a corner of the womb, in a ball, "giving up."  The reason was (and of course I was already resuming an old life pattern) was that my mother was drinking alcohol on a daily basis.  Even in my "baby mind" I knew that this was not good, that my very cells were being imbued with the toxins and that it would have repercussions down the road.  I was subsequently born with a neck that had the muscle very weak--  My consciousness--and subsequently at the age of 6 months sand bags were attached to strengthen it.  Later, a year before my mother died, I asked her about this.  She confirmed it.  I recall that I had this overwhelming Neptunian feeling of loss and being out of control permeate my being.  I remember feeling "trapped" for my baby mind knew there was "no way out" and so I waited, stuck in what I would call apathy, or entropy.  However, my inner knowing also remembered being born at the moment my True Self intended.   So, in a nutshell, I say yes, the soul, or True Self, is very much in charge of ALL conditions around birth, and I had to respond to these circumstances in a way that would promote its growth.  It took me awhile, but I did.  And, I can never touch alcohol, fyi.  It is like a poison for me. Blessings....

Thanks for sharing your story Imsara...very interesting.  Love reading about that type of thing..

Hi Imsara,

Thanks for sharing that. That is a very powerful memory and a very powerful first regression. Just wondering about the part where you say you can not drink alcohol as it is a poison to you. What kind of symbolism goes along with this is your chart? Where is Neptune and what does it aspect? Does it form hard aspects to the Moon or Cancer/4th house placements?

Thanks again,
cat

Angie,

You said:

Quote"Like what if a Soul doesn´t want to come back to Earth or any other physical place, can it continue its evolution simply from where it is or in other ways?"

Have you ever read any Edgar Cayce books? His astrology books say we do what he calls "planetary sojourns" and spend time on other planets. When he says this he is not saying there is physical life on other planets, but that each is a different type of consciousness which a different purpose.

http://www.astrodreamadvisor.com/Edgar_Cayce_Astrology_Soul.html

In addition to that, for some reason I believe that there are other solar systems that we can incarnate into and other places and consciousnesses we can explore. I think after we finish incarnating on Earth that we may continue on in other planes of being. I'm not so sure that Earth is the end of the road on the journey home, but just one of many different types of places.  It's where we can experience and exhaust our physical desires and then maybe move on to other things. What other things? I have no idea. I'm not sure we are capable of grasping it all yet or from the physical pov.