School of Evolutionary Astrology Forum

Hello everyone,

The intention of this thread is to serve as another practice opportunity for applying the basic ea paradigm. We'll look at a chart with the basic ea signatures. Absolutely anyone is invited to participate at any level. My role here will just be to guide those who participate here to the best that I can. Rad will be following along and tuning in when necessary - and I will defer all questions that I cannot answer to him. I also invite those who are experienced in EA to offer your guidance here as well and to jump in whenever called to do so.

For me, this is another opportunity for me to grow in this work and to give back in a small way. It is an honor for me to do so.

Note there may be a couple periods where I am on the road for a few days here and there and will not be able to access the internet too much.

So whoever would like to participate in this thread please let me know here and we'll take it from there!

God bless
Ari Moshe

Hi Ari,

Yes, I would like to participate in this thread.

What kinds of charts will we be working on?  Basic Pluto paradigm only and/or chart of famous person?

Thank you and EA for another great opportunity to learn and share.

Love,

Linda

Hi Linda, I know there are a couple people who are pretty new beginners to this work that have expressed to me their interest in joining this thread. So my sense is to start with the basic Pluto nodes paradigm - to make up a hypothetical chart in the same way Rad has done it in previous practice threads.

Beyond that, I do not feel competent or that it is appropriate for me at this point to hold the space for FULL chart analysis - such as working with the chart of a famous dead person.
With love
am

I am new to EA and would like to participate, Ari.

Hi Ari,

Ok i would like to try, thanks for the good idea.

Tory

Hi Ari and Everyone,

I'm a new student and am interested in participating in this thread.

With Gratitude,
Emily

Let's go!

Looking forward to it, Ari!

Paula

Ari, count me in! Thanks again for being generous with your time! Robin

Wow Ari - what a great response!  :D

Since this thread is for beginners, I may just read along at this stage.

Ari,
If it is okay I may be interested in participating in this, although i am not a total beginner with writing here. I have found it hard to make the time with my other work to take on a full chart analysis with all the myriad of aspects, and so what you are proposing here sounds manageable for me. If you'd rather this be for total beginners on this board please let me know.
blessings,
Gray

Hi Gray, of course you can join - and I'm sure that will be valuable for all involved. Anyone at any level is invited to join.
With love
am

Hi Ari,

Thank you for starting this thread for beginners!....I look forward to joining you.

Kora

Hi Ari and Rad and all the wonderful people at EA.

Yes I would love to participate. Can't at this point fully commit on a day-to-day basis for personal reasons, as is the reason for not having posted anything on this msgbrd for quite some time now, but I have been following along and it's been quite a blessing to have seen the development of of so many over such a short period of time. The work of Jeffrey have altered my life and EA is nothing short of staggering...

All the best,
Henrik

Hi all! Alright, so we will start this practice now. Others are welcome to join in - just let me know so that I can wait for you b4 moving on to the next step.

We will start by placing Pluto in the 7th house. We will add the sign later.

Remember that Pluto correlates to the types of desires the soul has had in the past that has lead to this life. Desire is the bottom line reason for the life we come into and what we attract to ourselves. Thus Pluto is the bottom line signature for understanding why we are here.

Pluto both correlates to where the soul will resist growth based upon the nature of its separating desires, AND where the soul has the natural capacity, via free will, to cooperate with evolution. Evolution is the process of a soul exhausting all desires until the only desire that remains is the desire to reunite with the Source. Thus, it is the intensity of the soul's desire to unite with source, the Truth, to know God, Goddess - however we wish to think of it - that is the determinant for the soul's own evolution in any life. On the other hand, the intensity of the soul's desire to pursue its separating desires is what naturally draws the soul ever closer to what we can call evil.

In the end, our evolutionary growth, or lack thereof, is determined via choice - the basis of which is desire.

To have Pluto anywhere means the dynamics of resistance and cooperation have been underway for a long time relative to wherever Pluto is. Pluto does in fact point to the greatest insecurity within the soul. The Pluto polarity point however is the point opposite Pluto and signifies the evolutionary purpose of the current life.

For example, in general if a 7th house Pluto symbolizes that a soul that has become overly fixated on security through relationships, the Pluto polarity point in the 1st house implies the evolutionary purpose in this life to listen to oneself and to become independent of other people.

So to start let's by examining Pluto in the 7th house and explore the meaning of its polarity point in the 1st house. There is no specified gender, social background or evolutionary state at this point. I recommend you read the section on Pluto in the 7th house in Pluto the Evolutionary Journey of the Soul. Other readings you may wish to review are Jeff Green's teachings on the 4 ways the soul enacts its own evolution (found in the first chapter) as well as the general principals of Pluto and its polarity point found in that same chapter. And as always you can review anything from this message board, the archives in the MISC section, or the articles written by Jeff Green that are on the front page of this ea website.

Once we have all offered a basic analysis of the general soul psychology of Pluto in the 7th house and its polarity point I will create a specific context for this soul by placing the south node somewhere, creating a social/gender context and putting this soul in a specific evolutionary state.

We will build from there, step by step to eventually include the ruler of the south node by house, the north node, it's ruler by house, signs and possibly phases/aspects for those who wish to address that level of interpretation. How we move through this will depend on what kind of flow seems most appropriate here.

All efforts are just wonderful. Thank you so much for your choice to practice! Please remember the value is in the effort, not the quantity or how good it sounds. As I am ever learning from my own teachers - the greatest set back to any kind of learning is comparison to others. So stay close to yourself and allow your own efforts to bring you the feedback that will guide you further.

Feel free to ask any questions here. When I cannot answer, I will defer all questions to Rad. And again, others who are experienced in EA are absolutely welcome to offer feedback/answer questions when you intuition guides you to do so.

God bless you all, and thank you all so much for this wonderful opportunity for me to grow and be in service in this way.
With love,
Ari Moshe

Hello Ari, I am going to give it a try! With Pluto in the 7th house, this soul needed someone to act as a mirror -- reflection of self. This soul needed relationships so that it would know who it was.  So it would know its value. Codepdendent type. It was whatever/whoever the other(s) wanted it to be. Could accommodate all. The only way it got to know itself was in relation to other(s). There was a desire to please the other(s) to the detriment of self. Subservient. Relationship(s) not balanced. Sees other as more powerful or used codependency itself to manipulate the other. To control. Only through relating did this soul feel complete. The Pluto polarity point in the 1st house -- has to get to "know thyself". To go it alone. Be more independent. Make own decisions. Find own idenity not via relationship(s). Thanks, Robin

Hi Everyone,

Thanks to Robin for jumping in!  I will add my two cents.  With Pluto in the 7th we know that this soul's deepest resistance to growth is found in the realm of relationships.  There is something going on related to this person's ability to function as an equal...to know themselves as an equal in relationship or there is some kind of imbalance in relationship.  This is someone who may have experienced extremes in many types of relationships with many different people.  This person has unresolved issues regarding their own separate ego and resists acting independently outside of relationship....they may not know who they are outside of their relationship.  This person is likely functioning from their head (air sign) and is afraid to act on their own instincts.  This is someone who seeks harmony, is probably a good listener and who does not want to rock the boat.  This is someone who fears living independently and who may be out of touch with their own instincts or they are afraid to act on them.  These are some of my initial thoughts for what we know from the information given at this point.

Kora

Hi Ari, One and All,

Again, much gratitude for this thread. I am going be a doing a residential workshop next week so won't be able to participate during that time. With Pluto in the 7th, the "other" is the bottom line. With the 1st/7th house axis very basically it feels like "me" versus "them" and ultimately its learning that Source and the Divine can only be found "within" as oppossed to looking "outside" (the exhaustion of separating desires leading to a return to Source). Pluto in the 7th with the polarity point in the 1st, by nature there is a swinging back and forth from these two extremes (a real polarity) and the soul is learning through comparison in relationships to other and self, when the focus is intently on other, its all about pleasing the "other", putting the others needs first, living through the other's reactions and feedback, such is the denial of self. The evolutionary intent is connect with one's own instinctual inner guide, finding inner balance so that there may be an inner peace, without looking for it outside, without the need for the need for constant feedback from others, realising that everything we have been searching for, all strength and wisdom and peace is ultimately and only to be found within.

Much Gratitude and Light
Tory

Hi all - I just wanted to post one clarification about something I wrote in my last post regarding evil. I was informed that what I wrote could be misleading.

QuoteOn the other hand, the intensity of the soul's desire to pursue its separating desires is what naturally draws the soul ever closer to what we can call evil.

Separating desires are of course not evil. We all have them.
All of our desires create karma, and if we learn from what comes to us, our karma, then we can all grow. However if we instead feel victimized by the effects of our karma then that demosntrates a resistance to growth (not taking responsibility for our own choices) and will lead the soul further into pursuing its separating desires. Over time this can lead to increasingly sadistic psychology and actions. Eventually such a soul is given the opportunity to form a consummate relationship with evil.
with love,
Ari Moshe

Hi Everyone,

I want to explore some ideas in a little more depth and get some feedback as to whether my thinking is correct....Even though the evolutionary intent for this individual's current life is to be found in the polarity point (1st house/Aries/Mars) and involves freedom, independence, special destiny, instinctual action aimed at developing one's ego is it not true that the bottom line is still relationship (7th house)?  In other words the 7th house Pluto is where this individual holds two opposing desires....one is to merge with the absolute and the other is to separate?  The 7th house is still where the greatest potential for merging with source lies for this individual with where they are in their evolutionary cycle is it not?  Previous to this life this individual has been working in the realm of relationship because before that they were focused on subjective self focused learning.  From there they moved in to relationship with others in order to know themselves more objectively exploring a vast variety of relationships  to move beyond themselves, to discover balance, to objectively understand where others are coming from, to listen, and to learn how to bring their own uniqueness in to relationship with another.  Because relationship is the realm of greatest potential for uniting with source as well as the greatest area of insecurity, newness, etc. (they haven't yet learned to be good at it)....their insecurities have led to certain karmic limitations that now in this life they need to evolve beyond.  The polarity point will help them do what they have to do to evolve....but their greatest juice is still in realm of relationship isn't it?  There are many possibilities as far as the karmic limitations that they may be working on such as co-dependency, living through someone else's ego or being the alter ego for someone else, dominance, submission, projection, etc.....This person is extremely insecure about giving up whatever type of relationship they have because their greatest soul desire is to find the absolute through relationship.....Am I on the right track?  Also, does the personality structure of this individual that the soul has crafted in this life remain intact for the entire life or is an individual personality capable of morphing beyond their initial soul desire in one lifetime to another (in this particular case from the 7th relationship focus to the 8th house issues)?  Thanks!

Kora

Hi All,

Here is my attempt - Pluto in the 7th indicates that a soul has been working on the on-going lesson of being in relationships in a balanced way.  That they have not necessarily achieved this balance yet.  They will then have unconscious memories and desires around unresolved past relationship dynamics.  It seems that there may also be tension between compulsive feelings of needing to be in relationship and the desire to be independent as well (PPP 1st house)?  I understand that they will feel the compulsive need to be in relationship but If the person is coming in with all sorts of issues around relationships, I could see how one reaction might be to eschew relationships altogether out of fear - is this accurate?  The 7th house Pluto symbolizes the need to be whole within one-self so that one can meet others as an equal and give without expectations of their own unmet needs being met.  In knowing that one can take care of oneself, they are no longer dependant on another.  The lesson of the 7th house Pluto is to be who you are independent of relationships  - the Polarity Point being the 1st house, it's like the intention is birthing one's own identity as separate from any partner's influence.  The 7th house Pluto will attract people in this life that will force them deal with these issues - reflecting where they are at within themselves.  So they may experience very imbalanced relationships or a lack of relationships until they learn to relate to themselves in new ways.

Thanks so much for this opportunity, Ari.

-Emily

Hi All! From reading your thoughts it seems as if we are all on the same track. I imagine some of the "guess" work would evaporate once we get the sign that Pluto is in and the placements and signs of the nodes. Kora, I am not familiar with the 7th house/Libra as a desire to merge with the Absolute. I thought that was a 12th house, Pisces thing. I enjoyed reading everyone's post and it is assisting me in greater learning and understanding. Thanks, Robin

Hi all,

I am appreciating everyones comments.  It is great doing this one step at a time so that we can test and expand our understanding of each piece of the puzzle.  I think the ultimate lesson for 7th house Pluto is to exhaust all desire for relationship other than relationship with the Absolute...Then one can approach relationship from fullness rather than need and successfully move through the 7th house lessons.  The polarity point directs one back to self focused ego development and ultimately aligning one's ego with source....this brings one to a state of fullness and the ability to approach relationship from a place of wholeness.

Kora

Pluto in the 7th House

Learning balance; learning balance; learning balance.  I never really understood this (well, as far as I understand any of EA yet) until I began to see the integral part that the 1st House point plays in all of this; the intended balance of the individuality in a world of relationships.  JG advises that the intent is not to control or be controlled (hopefully, that's it in a very small nutshell), and to make sure that the partner (relationship of any sort) displays that balance as well.

If one could participate with others, one relationship at a time, this might be easier.  However, from the time that one begins school, one is thrust into the world of encountering many egos and trying-on many people, while trying to remain equal in the connection.  Too many relationships and too many viewpoints ill-perceived can create a lack of balance in the individual and therefore create a dependency on others.   There could be a loss of individuality and therefore a dependency on others to take the lead in the relationship.  Conversely, the 7th House Pluto can also become the dominant partner.

Through Venus, the 7th House Pluto individual visits the world of hearing/listening to others.  This influence of this dynamic is huge, because as Deva Green advises, " It is our inner dialogue that will condition how we listen to our partner."

References:  Pluto - The Evolutionary Journey of the Soul - Jeffrey Green
                   Pluto and Your karmic Mission - Deva Green

Thanks for the practice Ari! 

Hi Ari,
Thank you for this opportunity.


Hi All,


With Pluto in the seventh house the Souls greatest resistance to growth has been in the area of relationships.
The Souls desire has been to be in as many relationships as possible so as to learn by listening to the values, opinions and needs of others and through these other, the Pluto person has learned its own needs, desires and values.
Pluto 7th house has adopted other peoples realities, values, beliefs and has forgotten its own needs. By being the extension of their partner they have lost their ability to be themselves. They do not feel capable or secure enough to make their own decisions and to do things alone, by themselves. This dependency to be in a relationship to feel complete, secure is going to eventually create an imbalance /unequal situation.  These crisis will occur so as to give the Pluto person the opportunity to learn the lessons of objectivity, listening and learning when to give or not to give.
The 7th house Pluto will continue to resist not being in a relationship as this is where the security and familiarity is felt by the soul, the Soul will cyclically feel coexisting desires, one is to follow its desire and free itself and the other desire is to return to the Source, or God.
These push, pull opposing desires are the force of evolution.
This person has possibly been in relationships in which its own individuality was overshadowed by the partners needs, values, making the Pluto person an extension of the partner, this creates extreme situations in which the partner can become abusive or the 7th house Pluto be the abuser by having relationships with people that are vulnerable and weak, making them believe that they (other) cannot survive without the Pluto person.
The Pluto person by focussing on the polarity point Aries (Ist house) will learn that to be independent, have its own opinions, values, beliefs and follow its desires"¦.does not threaten the relationship or make the Pluto person less secure. On the contrary by being in a relationship that is based on equality and balance, the Pluto person will have achieved the real polarity and evolutionary intent.

rita

Pluto in the 7th House
The soul has desired and set in motion a series of lives with the purpose of social interaction via personal relationships in order to understand one's own individuality and to learn how to balance one's own needs with that of others; how to give according to someone else's need within a relationship without compromising one's own individuality. In essence, to learn how to live as an equal in a relationship. There is also a natural trine to the 11th house and in the 7th house we learn how to be objective within relationships, in the 11th we learn how to be objective relative to society.

In order to find out what other people think and need each personality has had to learn how to listen and how to relate. Coming into this life, validating oneself through relationships has become normalcy, and for most it is/has been an unconscious process (Pluto). Ari ,correct me if I'm wrong, this process of seeking out relationships has been a natural development coming out of the Virgo archetype and as such hasn't been a problem or something wrong by itself. The issue is that it has now become a compulsive behavior (Pluto) and this repetitive behavior now stems from unconscious security; we are used to this way of operating. Pluto in the 7th house people could either be dominating or subservient, or both in a relationship. The underlying issue is that we validate ourselves through someone else in a relationship. As with any other Pluto position, karma is often set in motion because the people involved in a relationship is often not consciously aware of the Pluto dynamics within the relationship.

Coming into this life the soul has the intention of shifting the focus from validating itself through someone else in relationships (Pluto 7th house) to validating oneself from within, but still within a relationship (Pluto Polarity Point in the 1st house).

With PPP in the 1st House, the aim is not to become totally Arian, but to find out your own individuality within a relationship, to learn how to be an equal within a relationship. To learn how to balance time by yourself with that of the other. In time the magnetism that is generated by consulting your (inner) self will attract other people who will allow you to be in a relationship without having to serve the other person's need. Conversely, you will not have to make the other person an extension of your own needs. For some the shift is gradual, for some (because of resistance), the shift may come from a sudden shock.

All the best,
Henrik

Hi all!
This is just wonderful, thank you all for your efforts.

I'm going to begin responding to the questions asked here and offer some additional insights. For those who have not yet posted, please feel free to still do so. Once we have all posted, we will move on to the next step.
With love,
Ari Moshe

Hi all,

Henrik's comments were very helpful to me in bringing some insights to some of my earlier questions....(I haven't quite figured out how to work the quote aspect of this message board from other people's posts so I can refer directly to what was written but I wanted to make a couple of comments!)

It seemed to me that you (Henrik) were pointing out that it is not regressive for a 7th house Pluto person to focus on relationship....its just that they need to work through the limitations/karma/compulsions that they have acquired along the way....mastery of healthy relationship is part of their necessary learning but because of their insecurity (usually unconscious) they are limited.  The Aires polarity point work is about developing the ego enough so they can be in relationship in a healthy manner and not doing away with relationships....correct?  This person legitimately needs to master learning to relate to others....Any further clarification from Ari or anyone else on this would be helpful.

Also Henrik I appreciated your pointing out the trine....7th house is objective learning about oneself in relationship....The third house as the other point of the trine supports this beautifully...

Kora

 

Hi Robyn, first thank you for your posts. What you have said is all within the possibilities of a 7th house Pluto. I'll respond here to a question you asked to Kora.

QuoteHi All! From reading your thoughts it seems as if we are all on the same track. I imagine some of the "guess" work would evaporate once we get the sign that Pluto is in and the placements and signs of the nodes. Kora, I am not familiar with the 7th house/Libra as a desire to merge with the Absolute. I thought that was a 12th house, Pisces thing. I enjoyed reading everyone's post and it is assisting me in greater learning and understanding. Thanks, Robin

Pluto in any house placement implies where desires are being exhausted until the only desire that remains is the desire to reunite with Source. Thus the house position of Pluto implies where there are separating desires for that which is not source. We have a choice, relative to the position of Pluto anywhere, to continue to pursue those desires and perpetuate the same karma, or look within and evolve - polarity point.

With love,
am

Hi Kora,
First thank you for all you have written. It is all accurate and is true for the possible expressions of a 7th house Pluto. Regarding one thing you said,

QuoteThis is someone who seeks harmony, is probably a good listener and who does not want to rock the boat.

I think you pointing out something to this nature in a later post of yours. I just want to clarify this for everyone here. 7th house Pluto people can in fact be truly horrible listeners due to the nature of their deeply rooted security needs linked to others. There may be a block to actual listening due to a strong tendency towards projection. They can also use "listening" as a source of manipulation. Also depending on the particular ego structure the soul has constructed, a 7th house Pluto person can definitely rock the boat. The 7th house is a house of extreme.

QuoteI want to explore some ideas in a little more depth and get some feedback as to whether my thinking is correct....Even though the evolutionary intent for this individual's current life is to be found in the polarity point (1st house/Aries/Mars) and involves freedom, independence, special destiny, instinctual action aimed at developing one's ego is it not true that the bottom line is still relationship (7th house)?

The evolutionary intent isn't about developing one's ego. The ego, which is symbolized by the Moon and it's lunar nodes, will always be a reflection of the soul's desires. 1st house isn't ego.

QuoteIn other words the 7th house Pluto is where this individual holds two opposing desires....one is to merge with the absolute and the other is to separate?  The 7th house is still where the greatest potential for merging with source lies for this individual with where they are in their evolutionary cycle is it not?

The position of Pluto will always signify where there have been and are unresolved desires for that which is ephemeral - other than the absolute truth.

Evolving closer to Source for a 7th house Pluto may at times look like separating from a relationship (due to the need to not become overly dependent/fixated on others) it can also at times imply a soul that enters into a relationship that becomes a deep evolutionary experience - ie where two souls consciously practice seeing the Truth of who they are through the reflection of the other. That is an example of a relationship wherein the relationship itself supports the growth of the soul. Within such a relationship there will be a lot of deep work and effort put into exhausting various unconscious patterns (Pluto) with the intention to become aware of those patterns by paying attention to the dynamics within the relationship itself (7th house).

However the moment security is linked to the relationship itself and not the looking within and evolving closer to Source, that sets into motion a particular kind of karma that needs to be addressed at some point. In all cases the Pluto polarity point is the key for evolution.

With love,
am

Hi Tory,
First, thank you for your post and participation here. Everything you said is accurate and within the possibilities of this signature.

QuoteAgain, much gratitude for this thread. I am going be a doing a residential workshop next week so won't be able to participate during that time. With Pluto in the 7th, the "other" is the bottom line. With the 1st/7th house axis very basically it feels like "me" versus "them" and ultimately its learning that Source and the Divine can only be found "within" as oppossed to looking "outside" (the exhaustion of separating desires leading to a return to Source). Pluto in the 7th with the polarity point in the 1st, by nature there is a swinging back and forth from these two extremes (a real polarity) and the soul is learning through comparison in relationships to other and self, when the focus is intently on other, its all about pleasing the "other", putting the others needs first, living through the other's reactions and feedback, such is the denial of self. The evolutionary intent is connect with one's own instinctual inner guide, finding inner balance so that there may be an inner peace, without looking for it outside, without the need for the need for constant feedback from others, realising that everything we have been searching for, all strength and wisdom and peace is ultimately and only to be found within.

Much Gratitude and Light
Tory

With love,
am

Hi Kora,

I realized I missed half of your post. So lesson for me to just quote the whole thing and not snippets of it.
I'll respond to what I did not yet address:

QuoteHi Everyone,

I want to explore some ideas in a little more depth and get some feedback as to whether my thinking is correct....Even though the evolutionary intent for this individual's current life is to be found in the polarity point (1st house/Aries/Mars) and involves freedom, independence, special destiny, instinctual action aimed at developing one's ego is it not true that the bottom line is still relationship (7th house)?  In other words the 7th house Pluto is where this individual holds two opposing desires....one is to merge with the absolute and the other is to separate?  The 7th house is still where the greatest potential for merging with source lies for this individual with where they are in their evolutionary cycle is it not?  Previous to this life this individual has been working in the realm of relationship because before that they were focused on subjective self focused learning.  
From there they moved in to relationship with others in order to know themselves more objectively exploring a vast variety of relationships  to move beyond themselves, to discover balance, to objectively understand where others are coming from, to listen, and to learn how to bring their own uniqueness in to relationship with another.  Because relationship is the realm of greatest potential for uniting with source as well as the greatest area of insecurity, newness, etc. (they haven't yet learned to be good at it)....their insecurities have led to certain karmic limitations that now in this life they need to evolve beyond.  The polarity point will help them do what they have to do to evolve....but their greatest juice is still in realm of relationship isn't it?  
There are many possibilities as far as the karmic limitations that they may be working on such as co-dependency, living through someone else's ego or being the alter ego for someone else, dominance, submission, projection, etc.....This person is extremely insecure about giving up whatever type of relationship they have because their greatest soul desire is to find the absolute through relationship.....Am I on the right track?  

Also, does the personality structure of this individual that the soul has crafted in this life remain intact for the entire life

So it's this last part I did not address. The personality structure does shift relative to the nodal axis within the total ea paradigm in the chart - only as a reflection of the choice to evolve.

or is an individual personality capable of morphing beyond their initial soul desire in one lifetime to another (in this particular case from the 7th relationship focus to the 8th house issues)?  Thanks!

No. The position of Pluto and its polarity point signifies the intended evolutionary development for the entire life. When the life ends, relative to desire nature of the soul, that will determine the kind of life that is created the next time around./b]

With love,
am

Hi Emily, Henrik, Rita, Paula and others who have made additional posts here - I will have the chance to return to this thread tonight and will address the rest of your posts.
God bless,
am

Hi Ari,

Thank you so much for all of your responses which I am finding very helpful!  I want to respond to the comment you made about the ego and the first house with some further questions:

The evolutionary intent isn't about developing one's ego. The ego, which is symbolized by the Moon and it's lunar nodes, will always be a reflection of the soul's desires. 1st house isn't ego.

I understand that 1st house isn't ego but am finding some confusion around what is actually happening in the first house in relationship to the ego and what is often referred to in psychological language as ego building....I understand that in EA ego refers to the lens, the self identity, who we know ourselves to be (both conscious and unconscious?) and that the ego is the current life structure we have come in with that reflects our soul's desires and is found in the moon and the nodes and is also where our basic securities/insecurities lie?  How do you describe what is happening in the first house as far as evolutionary intent and its relationship to the ego if the task of the first house is expanding or discovery of one's individual sense of self?  I find it confusing to talk about because in psychological language that is often referred to as ego building or ego strengthening activity and I see that this can be misleading.  In EA does the basic ego structure that the soul expresses through expand grow or change?  Is 1st house Aires work merely uncovering the structure that is already there as opposed to building something new?  Also is ego in EA used interchageably with personality?

Any clarifying thoughts or further insights would be greatly appreciated!  Thank you so much!

Kora

Hi everyone,

I am finding all of your perspectives and learning to be very refreshing and invigorating, and would like to contribute some of my own thougts to get into the mix here.  Thank you, Ari, for holding this space and guiding this discussion, I sense there is a lot of learning to be gained from the collective group gathering here.

I feel many aspects of a 7th house Pluto have already been touched upon, so I will attempt to express some of the most resonant aspects of the archetype developed with EA with my own experiences.  One of the most bottom line aspects to me is the importance of a 7th house Pluto ultimately gaining the presence of coming into a relationship purely because of choosing to want that particular relationship as oppossed to feeling a need for that relationship.  Some have already commented on the house trines to the 7th house, and another aspect for me that is important is the house squares, in particular in this context the 4th house square to the 7th house, or the Cancer to the Libra.  Emotional security is a very important quality for 7th house Pluto people to develop, it is in fact the only way they can ultimately enter relationships purely out of a choice reflecting their highest good instead of entering out of an emotional need, at times even a compulsive desire to be needed and to have someone to focus upon and give of themselves toward.

As Ari mentioned, 7th house Plutos can be extreme and it does not necessarily mean they are good listeners or know how to be in relationship as an equal- there is a wide spectrum, but in all cases they are learning how to be an equal in relationship. learning to be a more effective listener and learning to give what the other person truly needs.  Learning to give what the other truly needs is a very important aspect and has a wide range of development stages.  One in particular that calls to me is learning when to not give, because many 7th house Plutos are very good at giving, and do know to some degree how to key in on what someone needs or the desires and natures of others.  However, in some cases what another truly needs is to learn how to do things for themselves, get on their own feet through their own self work instead of relying on needing the 7th house Pluto person, going along with the movement to the Pluto polarity point.  Learning when not to give so not to create a dependency for others upon themselves is an important lesson for 7th house Plutos, and as has been mentioned, some are used to being dominant and manipulative and encouraging this.  In the first Pluto book JWG mentioned Richard Nixon as an example of this.

JWG also describes 7th house Plutos as embarking upon a new stage in their evolution, learning how to be more objective and be involved in socialization.  The movement to the 1st house pluto polarity point is not about being alone or selfish or avoiding relationship.  It is about learning to fulfill one's own needs, be capable of being alone and fulfilling oneself through being alone, instead of seeking out a relationship to meet one's needs.  It is also about learning to find one's own sense of themselves, being able to find one's true individual path, through a process of being in many relationships with different people, at times being overly influenced by the opinions of others, at times influencing the opinions of others, but moving forward toward the polarity point would be finding the Libran balance through the Arian ability to come to a relationship from a whole sense of self without emotional insecurity needs getting into the mix. As well as being able to discern one's true individual path despite all of the influences swirling around through socialization, social networks, social media....being able to take care of one's individual needs and make choices in life from within instead of making choices or decisions based upon the opinion's of others, trying to be liked by others, or popular with others.....The more a 7th house Pluto can move toward the 1st house polarity point, the more they will be able to not create expectations and projections in their relationships based upon their emotional needs and wounds, and the more likely they can enter a relationship that will be mutually beneficial for helping each partner grow and progress forward in a more positive manner connected with each partner's individual path.

Indeed, 7th house Plutos are going to end up being drawn back into relationships over and over again.  Sometimes they will be left by their partners and be hurt and feel needy, sometimes they may leave their partners and hurt their partners as a result.  Sometimes when a 7th house Pluto is in a relationship that has become codependent and compulsive in its quality, with both individuals seemingly incapable of breaking out of the dynamic, crises will occur that basically direct the 7th house Pluto person to end the relationship, or the relationship may just be removed by outer events.  As 7th house Pluto people evolve forward they can use their time apart from relationships to learn how to be alone, nurture themselves, experience deep reflection on what happened in the relationship and how their own needs contributed to the difficulty.  Ultimately 7th house Pluto people are learning about themselves and their desires, including their separating desires, through their relationships and what is getting reflected back to them. To just go off by themselves out of relationship forever, would be like the spiritual seeker going off into the mountains or into isolation to meditate and gain all this wisdom, wisdom the seeker could soon find out isn't fully integrated once back into the socialized world with all of its difficulties again.  7th house Pluto people will be continually retesting their development through each new relationship and each new interaction with current relationships, in a constant process of gaining greater balance if they are evolving forward and learning how to listen more effectively and give what the other truly needs.  When not evolving forward, 7th house Plutos could be dominant and manipulative in relationships through their ability to key in on the desires of others, or lost in a fog of not knowing their true sense of self through following along with the values and desires of others around them who seem to possess something they think they need, when in actuality the pluto polarity point suggests this power could be found within themselves.  The movement toward the first house polarity point is also about taking responsibility for their self and how they have acted in relationships and contributed to the dynamic, instead of victimizing themselves or placing the blame on the other person, or trying to draw in a circle of outside support to make themselves feel better about themselves instead of doing the deeper harder work of changing behavior patterns.  Again, it isn't that a 7th house person shouldn't have a circle of support or relationships, it is more about entering those circles with emotional security instead of feeling a need for them out of emotional insecurity.  Throughout all of these relationships, 7th house pluto people are certainly creating a lot of karma with other individuals, some of which is unresolved. Oftentimes, 7th house pluto people will be interacting with other beings in their lifetime who they have known in previous incarnations and have unresolved karma with, or perhaps someone they had a very positive effect upon and is due for something positive in return.

I look forward to this continued discussion! blessings, Gray

Hi all - I have not had the chance to complete my responses tonight. I will resume tomorrow morning.
With love,
am

Kora, I was thinking about the same thing today re the ego/personality. Traditional astrology refers to the 1st house (ascendant) as "the mask we wear" to show others. How we best adapt to our environment. Ari, how does EA describe the function of the ascending sign on the 1st house cusp? Thanks, Robin

Hi Emily,
First, welcome to this message board and thank you for your participation in this thread. Everything you said is accurate for this signature.

QuoteHi All,

Here is my attempt - Pluto in the 7th indicates that a soul has been working on the on-going lesson of being in relationships in a balanced way.  That they have not necessarily achieved this balance yet.  They will then have unconscious memories and desires around unresolved past relationship dynamics.  It seems that there may also be tension between compulsive feelings of needing to be in relationship and the desire to be independent as well (PPP 1st house)?

We wouldn't regard the polarity point itself as an equal desire to Pluto, however the need for independence, absolutely comes up for this soul on a cyclic basis.  Pluto in any house position can signify the psychology of "entrapment". This is based on the reality that a soul can get incredibly lost to whatever it has desired to the point where it is then limited by that which it desired, which then catalyzes a compulsive need to purge/release from itself that which it has formed such a strong attachment towards. This also points to the famous "attraction repulsion" dynamic of Pluto.

So yes, in this case with a 7th house Pluto there can be periods of feeling limited, blocked, entrapped by other partners and thus the need to consciously not be in relationship at times on the basis of needing to integrate/purge/process the psychic material osmosed from other people and to come back to one's self. The key during such periods is to become more aware of the previously unconscious desires that lead to the experience of entrapment in the first place. The key is not to be reactive to the emotions of attraction (to be in a relationship) and repulsion (to get out of it) but to look at oneself.

I feel called to share something about polarities in general. It often looks like a soul is embracing it's polarity point (ie one day the 7th house Pluto soul who was otherwise submissive suddenly stands up for itself, starts acting out of anger towards its partner, and makes all these new demands in order to assert its needs) however its actions may just be a reaction to previously unconscious dynamics by way of going to the other extreme. In this case now seeking to dominate and not be controlled. Being alone, asserting oneself, saying "no" etc ate not innately an expression of a soul embracing the 1st house polarity point.

I understand that they will feel the compulsive need to be in relationship but If the person is coming in with all sorts of issues around relationships, I could see how one reaction might be to eschew relationships altogether out of fear - is this accurate? 

QuoteYes as per above. I had to look up eschew btw. Thanks for introducing it to me!

The 7th house Pluto symbolizes the need to be whole within one-self so that one can meet others as an equal and give without expectations of their own unmet needs being met.  In knowing that one can take care of oneself, they are no longer dependant on another.  The lesson of the 7th house Pluto is to be who you are independent of relationships  - the Polarity Point being the 1st house, it's like the intention is birthing one's own identity as separate from any partner's influence. 

The 7th house Pluto will attract people in this life that will force them deal with these issues - reflecting where they are at within themselves.  So they may experience very imbalanced relationships or a lack of relationships until they learn to relate to themselves in new ways.

Yes, beautifully said.

Thanks so much for this opportunity, Ari.

-Emily

With love,
am

Hi Paula,

Welcome to this message board and thank you for your participation here. Everything you have said is accurate for this signature.

QuotePluto in the 7th House

Learning balance; learning balance; learning balance.  I never really understood this (well, as far as I understand any of EA yet) until I began to see the integral part that the 1st House point plays in all of this; the intended balance of the individuality in a world of relationships.  JG advises that the intent is not to control or be controlled (hopefully, that's it in a very small nutshell), and to make sure that the partner (relationship of any sort) displays that balance as well.

If one could participate with others, one relationship at a time, this might be easier.  However, from the time that one begins school, one is thrust into the world of encountering many egos and trying-on many people, while trying to remain equal in the connection.  Too many relationships and too many viewpoints ill-perceived can create a lack of balance in the individual and therefore create a dependency on others.   There could be a loss of individuality and therefore a dependency on others to take the lead in the relationship.  Conversely, the 7th House Pluto can also become the dominant partner.

Through Venus, the 7th House Pluto individual visits the world of hearing/listening to others.  This influence of this dynamic is huge, because as Deva Green advises, " It is our inner dialogue that will condition how we listen to our partner."

Thank you for bringing this up. This is a meaningful principle that Jeff Green has often taught about. As we know, Venus is the ruler of both Taurus (cultivating self reliance, inner relationship to self) and Libra (seeking to form relationships with that which we are not and growing/learning about ourselves via those relationships). The crisis, and this is reflected in the natural inconjunct (150 degrees) between Taurus and Libra, is when we make our partner the source of fulfilling our needs. The point is to recognize that our partner will always reflect back to us our inner relationship to ourselves and as you quoted Deva, our inner dialogue with ourselves will condition how we listen to the other. Thus the need is to cultivate a healthy self esteem, to listen to and honor our own needs as a bottom line, (inner relationship side of Venus - Taurus), which then allows for growth oriented relationships, and real listening (outer relationship side of Venus - Libra).

References:  Pluto - The Evolutionary Journey of the Soul - Jeffrey Green
                   Pluto and Your karmic Mission - Deva Green

Thanks for the practice Ari!

With love
am

Hi Rita,
First, welcome to this message board, and thank you for your participation here.
Everything you have written here is accurate for the possibilities of this signature.

QuoteHi Ari,
Thank you for this opportunity.

Hi All,

With Pluto in the seventh house the Souls greatest resistance to growth has been in the area of relationships.
The Souls desire has been to be in as many relationships as possible so as to learn by listening to the values, opinions and needs of others and through these other, the Pluto person has learned its own needs, desires and values.
Pluto 7th house has adopted other peoples realities, values, beliefs and has forgotten its own needs. By being the extension of their partner they have lost their ability to be themselves. They do not feel capable or secure enough to make their own decisions and to do things alone, by themselves.

Yes and also remember the possibility of such a soul being the "decision maker" in a relationship. I see you spoke to this later on...

This dependency to be in a relationship to feel complete, secure is going to eventually create an imbalance /unequal situation.  These crisis will occur so as to give the Pluto person the opportunity to learn the lessons of objectivity, listening and learning when to give or not to give.

The 7th house Pluto will continue to resist not being in a relationship as this is where the security and familiarity is felt by the soul, the Soul will cyclically feel coexisting desires, one is to follow its desire and free itself and the other desire is to return to the Source, or God.

I don't understand what meant in that last sentence regarding the co-existing desires. So to make sure this is understood: 7th house Pluto can absolutely desire to not be in relationship on a cyclic basis. Being in one or not being in one is not in and of itself descriptive of the Pluto polarity point. IE being alone can easily be a reactive tendency to having gone too far in one extreme.
The desire to return to Source is enacted by way of looking within oneself and making the choice to not make the same choices that sought security from other people.

These push, pull opposing desires are the force of evolution.
This person has possibly been in relationships in which its own individuality was overshadowed by the partners needs, values, making the Pluto person an extension of the partner, this creates extreme situations in which the partner can become abusive or the 7th house Pluto be the abuser by having relationships with people that are vulnerable and weak, making them believe that they (other) cannot survive without the Pluto person.

The Pluto person by focusing on the polarity point Aries (Ist house) will learn that to be independent, have its own opinions, values, beliefs and follow its desires"¦.does not threaten the relationship or make the Pluto person less secure. On the contrary by being in a relationship that is based on equality and balance, the Pluto person will have achieved the real polarity and evolutionary intent.

rita

With love,
Ari Moshe

Hi Henrik,
Thank you for your participation in this thread. Everything you have written is accurate for this signature - save for a couple clarifications below...

QuotePluto in the 7th House
The soul has desired and set in motion a series of lives with the purpose of social interaction via personal relationships in order to understand one's own individuality and to learn how to balance one's own needs with that of others; how to give according to someone else's need within a relationship without compromising one's own individuality. In essence, to learn how to live as an equal in a relationship. There is also a natural trine to the 11th house and in the 7th house we learn how to be objective within relationships, in the 11th we learn how to be objective relative to society.

Thank you for sharing that perspective

In order to find out what other people think and need each personality has had to learn how to listen and how to relate. Coming into this life, validating oneself through relationships has become normalcy, and for most it is/has been an unconscious process (Pluto).

Ari ,correct me if I'm wrong, this process of seeking out relationships has been a natural development coming out of the Virgo archetype and as such hasn't been a problem or something wrong by itself. The issue is that it has now become a compulsive behavior (Pluto) and this repetitive behavior now stems from unconscious security; we are used to this way of operating.

The way to undersatnd the Virgo archetype in relation to this is that through Virgo the soul is working on itself, humiliating and humbling any latent narcissistic tendencies relative to Leo. This prepares the space for the soul to then LEARN how to enter into relationship as an equal through Libra. This is just a way of understanding the archetypes from a progressive point of view. This does not mean that a 7th house Pluto has done the 6th house thing in the past. Any 7th house Pluto signature implies that there are separating desires from prior lives linked to "other" that have not yet been exhausted

Pluto in the 7th house people could either be dominating or subservient, or both in a relationship. The underlying issue is that we validate ourselves through someone else in a relationship. As with any other Pluto position, karma is often set in motion because the people involved in a relationship is often not consciously aware of the Pluto dynamics within the relationship.

Coming into this life the soul has the intention of shifting the focus from validating itself through someone else in relationships (Pluto 7th house) to validating oneself from within, but still within a relationship (Pluto Polarity Point in the 1st house).

Within or not within a relationship. Either one. The point is that as the polarity point is embraced that then sets in motion the actualization of balanced relationships/relationship patterns

With PPP in the 1st House, the aim is not to become totally Arian, but to find out your own individuality within a relationship, to learn how to be an equal within a relationship. To learn how to balance time by yourself with that of the other.

The point of the ppp is to develop one's individuality separate from relationship - this can happen while in a relationship or not in one. Ultimately, this is about exhausting desires for security linked to that which is not absolute - in this case, "other people". Evolution is the intention, balance in relationship is a by product of evolution.

In time the magnetism that is generated by consulting your (inner) self will attract other people who will allow you to be in a relationship without having to serve the other person's need. Conversely, you will not have to make the other person an extension of your own needs. For some the shift is gradual, for some (because of resistance), the shift may come from a sudden shock.

All the best,
Henrik

Thanks for bringing that up that last point as well.

With love,
Ari Moshe

Hi Kora,

QuoteHi all,

Henrik's comments were very helpful to me in bringing some insights to some of my earlier questions....(I haven't quite figured out how to work the quote aspect of this message board from other people's posts so I can refer directly to what was written but I wanted to make a couple of comments!)

To quote someone, click on the little quote icon (just above the emoticons to right right, next to the pound sign) copy and past the selection you wish to quote in between the two brackets that will show up on your screen. Same for writing something in bold and all those other options.

It seemed to me that you (Henrik) were pointing out that it is not regressive for a 7th house Pluto person to focus on relationship....its just that they need to work through the limitations/karma/compulsions that they have acquired along the way....mastery of healthy relationship is part of their necessary learning but because of their insecurity (usually unconscious) they are limited.  

The Aires polarity point work is about developing the ego enough so they can be in relationship in a healthy manner and not doing away with relationships....correct?  This person legitimately needs to master learning to relate to others....Any further clarification from Ari or anyone else on this would be helpful.

Yes and remember the goal isn't being in balanced relationships, it's evolution. And I'll address your question about ego and the 1st house in a future post...

Also Henrik I appreciated your pointing out the trine....7th house is objective learning about oneself in relationship....The third house as the other point of the trine supports this beautifully...

Kora

With love,
am

Hi Kora and everyone,

Regarding this topic about the ego I absolutely invite anyone who is experienced in ea who feels they have something meaningful to contribute to jump in here. I'm going to do my best to offer my understanding.

QuoteHi Ari,

Thank you so much for all of your responses which I am finding very helpful!  I want to respond to the comment you made about the ego and the first house with some further questions:

The evolutionary intent isn't about developing one's ego. The ego, which is symbolized by the Moon and it's lunar nodes, will always be a reflection of the soul's desires. 1st house isn't ego.

I understand that 1st house isn't ego but am finding some confusion around what is actually happening in the first house in relationship to the ego and what is often referred to in psychological language as ego building....I understand that in EA ego refers to the lens, the self identity, who we know ourselves to be (both conscious and unconscious?) and that the ego is the current life structure we have come in with that reflects our soul's desires and is found in the moon and the nodes and is also where our basic securities/insecurities lie? 

QuoteYes - but it is specifically conscious. It is who we know our selves to be - as a creation of the desires within the soul, which are predominately unconscious.

How do you describe what is happening in the first house as far as evolutionary intent and its relationship to the ego if the task of the first house is expanding or discovery of one's individual sense of self?

The 1st house relates to the active moment by moment discovery process of the soul of its own unique existence in this life - thus the sense of "I will do it alone, this is something I need to do/try/say/experience" inherent to this archetype. The first house/Aries energy sets into motion the process of action and reaction on an ongoing basis which, ie constant self discovery. This is then how the soul gathers direct knowledge about itself which further fuels it's evolutionary intentions for the current life.

The way to exemplify this is via a 2 year old child. The child is needing to discover its own individuality by a burgeoning unfoldment of what its like to be alive. That discovery sets in motion and catalzyes all kinds of deeper lessons that this child will learn along the way.


I find it confusing to talk about because in psychological language that is often referred to as ego building or ego strengthening activity and I see that this can be misleading. 
In EA does the basic ego structure that the soul expresses through expand grow or change? 

Yes relative to the changing (for better or worse) desire nature of the soul itself.

Is 1st house Aires work merely uncovering the structure that is already there as opposed to building something new? 

It's about creating new actions in order to discover oneself and initiate the soul's purpose. In the end its all interrelated. So as the ego shifts to reflect the soul's evolution - the 1st house/Aries archetype will express as new kinds of actions that will lead the soul to further self discovery - ie evolution - which then leads yet again to a shift within the ego as a reflection of the changes within the soul.

When working with the ea paradigm, an important step to take into consideration is the phasal relationship between Mars and Pluto. This will indicate the specific way that the soul is intending in this life to initiate a path of self discovery in order to actualize it's evolutionary potential. There is a lot of info on this on the message board if you'd like to look around. It's also addressed in depth in the Pluto II book.


Also is ego in EA used interchageably with personality?

To me that sounds right.

Any clarifying thoughts or further insights would be greatly appreciated!  Thank you so much!

Kora

Another thing to consider is the natural square between Cancer with Libra and Aries. Libra and Aries are both instinctive - initiation and self discovery through others or through being alone and acting independently. In both cases there is implied an active process of discovery which has the effect of influencing the development of the personality. They are not in and of themselves the ego, but they will lead the soul to experiences which then informs the individual soul about itself - thus the shift in the ego structure itself.

As always, please feel free to ask more about this.
With love,
Ari Moshe

Hi Gray and Robbyn,
I intend to respond to your posts either later today or tomorrow morning.
With love,
Ari Moshe

Hi Ari,

Thank you for your correction and yes my phrase was wrongly constructed, sorry.
I am afraid it might happen.
rita

Hi All,
A new try,


With Pluto in the seventh house the Souls greatest resistance to growth has been in the area of relationships.
Pluto 7 house because it is Cardinal, and in an angular house it is considered a relatively new energy and the person has been learning the on going lesson on how to be involved with its partners on an equal basis.
The Pluto person will feel a rooted compelling desire to be in a relationship to feel complete and fulfilled
The Souls desire has been to be in as many relationships as possible so through comparison and contrast it has learned how to objectify reality as it is for the other.
By listening( Venus correlates to listening ) to the other person through a personal need, wish or desire the Pluto person will not hear the partners needs,  giving the opportunity for an imbalance to manifest within the relationship, which will create a crisis so the Pluto person is remembered to listen really to the needs of the other person.  
Pluto in the 7 house symbolizes the need to be in a relationship to feel complete, but when a Pluto person is in a relationship in which it has become the dominant partner for its self centered insecurities, by choosing a partner that is fragile or has little self esteem. The opposite can also happen in which the Pluto person is dominated by the partner, either way this distortion of the 7 house archetype will manifest itself as to be needed or to be needy.
Pluto 7 house also manifests it self as expectations and projected needs in a relationship and the way we give or with hold from others. If our  needs in a relationship are not met, with holding giving to the other, becomes easy.
Through the needs, values and opinions of others with whom they have had relationships with, the Pluto person has learned its own needs, desires and values.
Too many relationships can bring the Pluto person too many different opinions, points of views and values  becoming overly identified and loose in the way its own individuality. this would make the Pluto person confused as who and what they are. This has occurred because they have become too dependent on these opinions. Objectivity and to listen are the lessons to be mastered.

Pluto 7th house has adopted other peoples realities, values, beliefs and has forgotten its own needs. By being the extension of their partner they have lost their ability to be themselves. They do not feel capable or secure enough to make their own decisions and to do things alone, by themselves. This dependency to be in a relationship to feel complete, secure is going to eventually create an imbalance /unequal situation.  These crisis will occur so as to give the Pluto person the opportunity to learn the lessons of objectivity, listening and learning when to give or not to give.
 
This person has possibly been in relationships in which its own individuality was overshadowed by the partners needs, values, making the Pluto person an extension of the partner, this creates extreme situations in which the partner can become abusive or the 7th house Pluto be the abuser by having relationships with people that are vulnerable and weak, making them believe that they (other) cannot survive without the Pluto person.

The Pluto person by focussing on the polarity point Aries (Ist house) cardinal energy will feel the desire to be independent, he will desire to venture his own life direction, be alone and be ok, without the opinions or advices of others, and at the same time the Pluto person will learn not to control or interfere if the partner takes a new direction or decision in his life. The lesson here is to accept the new decision without having to put a block or feel threatened towards it.
The Pluto person will learn that to be independent, have its own opinions, values, beliefs, desires"¦.does not threaten the relationship or make the Pluto person less secure.
The Pluto person evolutionary intent is to develop a balance between being alone and being with people and that he learns to be in a relationship in a new way.
On the contrary by being able to be in a relationship that is based on equality and balance, the Pluto person will have achieved the real polarity intent.

Hi Ari and Everyone,

Thank you Ari for your responses to my questions about the ego.  What you said brought clarification and made sense....I will continue to ask questions as they evolve and appreciate the references to explore for additional insights.  I am amazed at how much comes up through this practice process and am deeply grateful for everyones thoughtful contributions to this discussion.   For me this format provides a very rich learning situation.  I will be away from my computer for a few days so will join in again when I can.  Love and Blessings to all!

Kora   

Hi Gray, thank you for participating in this thread. Everything you wrote is accurate for this signature. What you wrote here was really insightful for me and well put:

QuoteUltimately 7th house Pluto people are learning about themselves and their desires, including their separating desires, through their relationships and what is getting reflected back to them. To just go off by themselves out of relationship forever, would be like the spiritual seeker going off into the mountains or into isolation to meditate and gain all this wisdom, wisdom the seeker could soon find out isn't fully integrated once back into the socialized world with all of its difficulties again.  7th house Pluto people will be continually retesting their development through each new relationship and each new interaction with current relationships, in a constant process of gaining greater balance if they are evolving forward and learning how to listen more effectively and give what the other truly needs.  When not evolving forward, 7th house Plutos could be dominant and manipulative in relationships through their ability to key in on the desires of others, or lost in a fog of not knowing their true sense of self through following along with the values and desires of others around them who seem to possess something they think they need, when in actuality the pluto polarity point suggests this power could be found within themselves.  The movement toward the first house polarity point is also about taking responsibility for their self and how they have acted in relationships and contributed to the dynamic, instead of victimizing themselves or placing the blame on the other person, or trying to draw in a circle of outside support to make themselves feel better about themselves instead of doing the deeper harder work of changing behavior patterns.

With love,
Ari Moshe

Hi Robbyn,

QuoteKora, I was thinking about the same thing today re the ego/personality. Traditional astrology refers to the 1st house (ascendant) as "the mask we wear" to show others. How we best adapt to our environment. Ari, how does EA describe the function of the ascending sign on the 1st house cusp? Thanks, Robin

Steve offered a great clarification for the 4 angles in general:
https://forum.schoolofevolutionaryastrology.com/index.php/topic,124.0.html (https://forum.schoolofevolutionaryastrology.com/index.php/topic,124.0.html)

And Deva offers a great response as well: https://forum.schoolofevolutionaryastrology.com/index.php/topic,668.msg10867.html#msg10867 (https://forum.schoolofevolutionaryastrology.com/index.php/topic,668.msg10867.html#msg10867)

She wrote:

QuoteIn a general sense, the AC-DC will reflect how we project ourselves to others consciously ( DC/7th house) and how we instinctualy  express ourselves within the environment (AC/1st house). It is important to understand that how others see us based on that instinctual expression is not always how we see ourselves. This is because this instinctual response is not a conscious action on our part. On the other hand the conscious projection of ourselves towards others (DC 7th house) is based on the instinctual nature of the AC/1st house.
     The example the JWG gives of a person with Scorpio on the AC and Taurus on the DC helped clarify this for me. In this example, when a person with this AC/DC comes into the room they sit in the very back and do not speak to anyone. The point within this is that Taurus DC is projecting a persona of being self-contained and inwardly secure and stable to "offset" fears of abandonment, betrayal and loss reflected in the Scorpio AC. The instinctual expression of the Scorpio AC is often perceived as "intense" although the person does not see themselves in this light.

To come back to the analogy of the 2 year old child. This child requires immense freedom to act upon their own desires - thus that freedom is the gateway to it's own moment to moment self discovery - wherever it is. This is an instinctual process AND it is happening on a conscious level (the child knows that it is putting its hand in the socket).

And at the same time the child is not aware of how they appear to other people. Thus it is the very opposite of the mask we are putting on (otherwise known as a persona). Jeff Green teaches that the persona is in fact the Descendant.

If you make that 2 year old child an astrological archetype, lets say Scorpio - it may come across as intense, however it won't think of itself as that - that is what it looks like from the point of view of an outsider.

As always, feel free to ask more about this - but I'd suggest continuing in another thread or posting in one of the other threads I posted above.
With love
Ari Moshe

Hi all,

It's just great to read everyone's posts - very enjoyable to read. I know it's meant to be a beginners thread but you do not seem like real beginners to me, a lot of what you're saying makes very good sense. And thanks Ari for creating the thread - a wonderful idea. It is just so good to have a thread where anyone can have a go no matter how much they know or don't know or unsure they feel.

Kora and others were asking whether the 1st house is an ego house, or similar, and Ari has said to chip in so I'll outline how I see it. (While I've been writing I see Ari has provided some great links but I'll post this too).

Regarding the idea in traditional astrology of the 1st house being the "ego" house - this comes from Aries being thought of as the most self centered sign (me, me, me) and thus the "ego" sign. And Aries is a very self centered sign - literally. It is focussed on itself. Aries is supposedly selfish, and this is regarded as egoistic. Thus the 1st house could be called an ego building house. But all this doesn't really equate to ego as it is understood in EA. I would say that traditional astrology is referring more to the personality when they say this about Aries ... the personality as in someone's "predictable character".

Whereas in EA the ego describes a much deeper aspect of ourselves - the sense of being a separate entity, the self, which maintains it separateness by a usually subconscious habitual attachment to the past sense of self. In other words a perpetuation of the same sense of oneself, the same inner identity, on an ongoing basis. Represented in EA by the Moon, a clinging (Cancer/4th) to that which is subconsciously familiar ... which itself is simply a reflection of the deeper more unconscious familiarity, sense of self, present in the Soul (Pluto/Scorpio/8th).

Aries/Mars/1st house is all about a direct awareness of oneself, ones immediate space, one's body and breathing, the warmth in one's big toe, oneself. This point of self focus creates the greatest possibility to become aware of one's instinctual feelings and urges, and to immediately act on these. The thing about instincts is that they have nothing to do with the past or the future, they only operate in the present. And they don't manifest in the thinking process, they arise spontaneously via the body and then sometimes feelings - primitive urges. So the 1st house puts us in touch with these, and thus puts us in touch with our immediate natural needs. Temporarily we become one with ourself. This is one core value of Aries. Not so much to do with ego (in the sense described above) but more to do with being first and foremost present to oneself.

A small story might illustrate ...

I had gone to the beach with my girlfriend and another friend of ours on a Christmas day. Beautiful sunny day with blue sky and hot sun, a slight breeze. The beach was very isolated and wild, usually big surf pounding against rocky outcrops, but big long sweeps of sandy beach between the outcrops. Glistening black iron sand, towering cliffs as a back drop to the beach. We had to walk down through bush for 30 minutes to get there, and no -one else was there when we arrived late afternoon.

The tide was out a long way, and the water remarkably calm (unusually) with waves only about a foot high, so we all delighted and jumped in. I was a little distance away from the girls, in up to my waist sometimes my chest, playing in very small waves. As each wave came in I would gently rise off the bottom and as it passed me I would touch down onto the sand again. Doing that for about 20 minutes, and then one time when I came down as the wave passed by me towards the shore my feet didn't hit the bottom. Strange I thought, and looked around - I was just where I had been all the time. So I swam a bit towards the shore and then stood up, thinking that would easily get me back to touching the sea floor. But no, I still couldn't. Can't be a problem I thought, only half a minute ago I was touching the bottom, I'll just swim to the shore a bit more, which I did, only this time I put in a real strong burst for a couple of minutes. That's fixed it I said to myself as I stood up. But no! No change whatsoever. And then I noticed the sea had completely changed - it had become another animal, and fast ... it was now frothing with white water hissing and flying higher off the waves, a strong current had developed and was pulling out and sideways, and I was in deep water. The tide had turned and water was pouring in from everywhere. The Moon was losing it's grip on it, and it was returning to the land with a vengeance it seemed.

The beach itself didn't look very far away, but no matter how hard I tried I couldn't reach it. And all the trying made me very tired. And I was starting to get pretty concerned, things were out of control. At this point I entered 1st house territory in full. I became very foccused on myself and my immediate needs. I could feel the rip trying to pull me out to sea, and panicked a bit. Instinctively (1st house) I tried to swim against the rip as I was still pretty close to the shore, and couldn't understand how only a couple of minutes ago I was standing in waist deep water in a calm sea feeling perfectly safe (Cancer/4th house). However the more I tried the more I tired myself out, and effectively stayed in the same position. I was not being pulled out to sea at all, but I just couldn't swim the 10 -15 metres I needed to get into what was obviously shallow water. So frustrating! But also so dangerous. I had exhausted myself, and now had no resistance to the rip. The sea had turned and was now choppy and rough, waves much bigger, swell rising, and I was suddenly floating out to sea. I called out to the others who were close in by the shore and they heard me and looked up, and slowly realised what was happening. But then I was gone - out I went.

Once I was quite a long way out, near the back of where the waves were breaking, the current became a bit weaker, and I could once again hold my own against it. I then saw my girlfriend swimming out to me so I did my best to tread water until she got to me. She was a good swimmer and was soon with me, and we now entered 7th house big time. Bobbing up and down in the swirling swell we talked ... how was I?, what to do, how could we get help (our friend was not much of a swimmer, the beach was deserted, the sun would be soon setting, and I was now exhausted and had taken in quite a bit of water), and decided that she would try and tow me in to the shore. I put my hand on her shoulder and she started off...but we both just went straight under. Coming up for air we looked at each other, to continue trying that would not have been healthy (codependency), and we quickly agreed to abandon that idea. Then in the middle of talking more about what options might be left, if any ............... suddenly she just disappeared! She was swimming very strongly into the shore. I thought to myself "we've tried all we can amongst oursleves, she is obviously   going to get help, she's going to run back up the track to the cliff top and try and raise the alarm, maybe a farm house close by or something. It was a long shot ... that would take 40 minutes or more and I wasn't sure I would be able to last that long. But it was our only option and I was so glad she had intuitively realised that and wasted no time in getting going.

................. a lot happened after this that in the end resulted in (obviously) me still being here to tell the tale, but its too much to go into here.........

The interesting bit is this. When my girlfriend got to the shore she didn't run up the beach to the track and up the cliff at all. She stopped at the shoreline and turned around and just watched me from the shore. I tried screaming at her to go for help (2nd house survival needs projected onto the other via the inconjunt between 2nd and 7th) but she was way too far away to hear me. So I was left on my own. From 7th house back to 1st, with a thump! There was noone left in the whole wide world to save me now. Darkness was coming, 2 others on a wild lonely beach who were not coming in the water at all and I was exhausted, full of water, and drifting rapidly out to sea by the minute, way out. I entered 8th house and starting having thoughts of death....

But why did my girlfriend just watch me from the shore? I found out later that when we had been talking she suddenly noticed for the first time how strong the current was, and suddenly was seized with a fear for her own safety. She hadn't felt that before, she was powered by adrenaline and a desire to save me (7th house). But the moment she felt that fear her instincts (1st house) kicked in and she just instinctively swam for safety. It wasn't ego, if anything it was survival (2nd house), but it was totally in the present and nothing to do with her past, her idea of herself, her identity as such (Cancer/4th house/Moon) - it was Mars acting here (Aries/1st house) - yes she was being selfish (Aries), but she wasn't acting from ego (Cancer/4th).

Hope that makes sense. And if anyone has a different view please just say.

blessings,
Upasika

Hi Rita, first not a worry about phrasing I understand English is not your main language. As always the value is in the effort. Thank you for your efforts here and this post of yours. It was all very clear and accurate.

QuoteHi Rita,

Hi All,
A new try,


With Pluto in the seventh house the Souls greatest resistance to growth has been in the area of relationships.
Pluto 7 house because it is Cardinal, and in an angular house it is considered a relatively new energy and the person has been learning the on going lesson on how to be involved with its partners on an equal basis.
The Pluto person will feel a rooted compelling desire to be in a relationship to feel complete and fulfilled
The Souls desire has been to be in as many relationships as possible so through comparison and contrast it has learned how to objectify reality as it is for the other.
By listening( Venus correlates to listening ) to the other person through a personal need, wish or desire the Pluto person will not hear the partners needs,  giving the opportunity for an imbalance to manifest within the relationship, which will create a crisis so the Pluto person is remembered to listen really to the needs of the other person.  
Pluto in the 7 house symbolizes the need to be in a relationship to feel complete, but when a Pluto person is in a relationship in which it has become the dominant partner for its self centered insecurities, by choosing a partner that is fragile or has little self esteem. The opposite can also happen in which the Pluto person is dominated by the partner, either way this distortion of the 7 house archetype will manifest itself as to be needed or to be needy.
Pluto 7 house also manifests it self as expectations and projected needs in a relationship and the way we give or with hold from others. If our  needs in a relationship are not met, with holding giving to the other, becomes easy.
Through the needs, values and opinions of others with whom they have had relationships with, the Pluto person has learned its own needs, desires and values.
Too many relationships can bring the Pluto person too many different opinions, points of views and values  becoming overly identified and loose in the way its own individuality. this would make the Pluto person confused as who and what they are. This has occurred because they have become too dependent on these opinions. Objectivity and to listen are the lessons to be mastered.

Pluto 7th house has adopted other peoples realities, values, beliefs and has forgotten its own needs. By being the extension of their partner they have lost their ability to be themselves. They do not feel capable or secure enough to make their own decisions and to do things alone, by themselves. This dependency to be in a relationship to feel complete, secure is going to eventually create an imbalance /unequal situation.  These crisis will occur so as to give the Pluto person the opportunity to learn the lessons of objectivity, listening and learning when to give or not to give.
 
This person has possibly been in relationships in which its own individuality was overshadowed by the partners needs, values, making the Pluto person an extension of the partner, this creates extreme situations in which the partner can become abusive or the 7th house Pluto be the abuser by having relationships with people that are vulnerable and weak, making them believe that they (other) cannot survive without the Pluto person.

The Pluto person by focussing on the polarity point Aries (Ist house) cardinal energy will feel the desire to be independent, he will desire to venture his own life direction, be alone and be ok, without the opinions or advices of others, and at the same time the Pluto person will learn not to control or interfere if the partner takes a new direction or decision in his life. The lesson here is to accept the new decision without having to put a block or feel threatened towards it.
The Pluto person will learn that to be independent, have its own opinions, values, beliefs, desires"¦.does not threaten the relationship or make the Pluto person less secure.
The Pluto person evolutionary intent is to develop a balance between being alone and being with people and that he learns to be in a relationship in a new way.
On the contrary by being able to be in a relationship that is based on equality and balance, the Pluto person will have achieved the real polarity intent.

Yes and just to clarify that in the end the evolutionary intent is not balanced relationship, it is to establish a relationship with oneself first and foremost. Balanced relationship is what is learned and affected as a result of the soul embacing it's polarity point - i.e. its desire to evolve and look within.

With love,
Ari Moshe

Hi all, at this point we are just about ready to move on to the next step! I will with another day or so to see if there are any further questions/ if anything further wishes to be added.
With love,
am

Hi Ari.

Thank you so much for your response. I will reflect on what you wrote and if I have any questions I will post them. Thank you for taking the time to do this.

All the best,
Henrik

Hi everyone,

Ok, the time has come to add the next step! We will now place the south node of the Moon in the 3rd house. Later we will the north node and then add the signs and perhaps even the planetary rulers.

The south node symbolizes the kind of identity the soul has created in the past to facilitate it's evolutionary intention. Thus the south node provides the specific, individualized context for the position of Pluto.

And of course, from the point of view of the soul itself, Pluto is always the "why" behind the south node. This is because the identity that the soul creates in each life serves as the focusing agent for the soul to pursue/exhaust its desires. 

So what we want to examine now is how has this soul sought to actualize the kinds of desires it has had in the past? What are some of the gifts and capacities that may be inherent to this soul - and what are some of the limitations/unconscious dynamics that this soul may have brought forth with them into the current life?

At this point we are still keeping it generic and not adding an evolutionary state or specific gender/cultural context for this soul. You may wish to review the Pluto in the 3rd house section in the Pluto book in order to review the basic meaning of that archetype. There is also ample material on the 3rd house/Gemini archetype on this message board.

And thank you all again for participating here! This is truly a pleasure and an honor for me. And remember any effort is just wonderful. I will respond accordingly.
With love, God bless
Ari Moshe

Hi Ari,
Hi All,


South Node third house Gemini, ruler Mercury, Air, masculine, mutable

With the South Node in Gemini / third house, the evolutionary intent in the past has been to seek out and gather as much information as possible so to feel emotionally secure and safe, but usually all the information they gather lacks depth.

All this information will help the Third house SN person understand who and what he is according to his surroundings. He feels a constant desire for information, this unconscious urge pushes him in all directions to go and gather more information so as to be able to communicate and see the reactions it causes on others. This way the third house SN gets to understand who he is and what he is in relation to the surrounding.

The tendency for a third house SN  is too look for something that he believes will help him get to know himself, and along his quest, there is a new word. This  new word,  will catch his attention and at that point the third house SN/ Gemini will go off on a totally irrelevant avenue only to later become  emotionally insecure, confused and threatened with the new knowledge he now has and does not know what to do with it. Does it make sense?

SN third house/ Gemini is a communicator, he likes to share his knowledge. He tends to like all means of communication available to him, so as to pass on/ share the information he got and  by seeing the reaction of the other he will learn what information is important and which is not.
When third house SN/Gemini becomes distorted, he will be mentally bored or frustrated  because he needs continuous mental growth. He also tends to be very sure of his truth, beliefs or points of views,( this is also a distortion of the archetype) when others show him different truths, but just as valid as his own. This creates for the SN third house a crisis of identity, as his security has been rocked and what he thought to be true may effectively not be so true.

The PPP of third house /Gemini is Sagittarius 9 house, this archetype correlates to the intuition, teachers, and the need to understand life in a cosmological,metaphysical and philosophical way. SN / third house / Gemini will gather information and through the  PP 9 house /Sagittarius he will realize that in order to understand more about life, he needs to stop accumulating all this different information and focus on one or two subjects and understand them in a deeper cosmological and metaphysical way.
With Pluto in the seventh house / Libra and the SN in the third house /Gemini,  he has had many relationships with different people so as to get to know himself through the attitudes, behavior, opinions and beliefs of others  thus creating for himself a secure and safe environment. The potential for unbalanced / unequal relationships in which he does not really have an identity of his own occurs. This because he has been doing for so long what others do without questioning for himself if there are other ways, other truths or other religions existent. Eventually he will create a crisis because of his beliefs, opinions and encounter other peoples different points of view that threaten his own. This will force him to interiorize and seek for himself what to believe or not to believe.

The PPP is the first House Aries, this points to the need that this individual will have to go out and discover for himself what different values, opinions, religions are out there.
He will use (SN third house/ Gemini)his relationships with his immediate family, school friends and small gatherings to form his own opinion about himself,  as his opinions become more formed he will share them with conviction on to others that will have completely different points of views, creating in him doubts, which in turn become insecurities. He no longer can be sure that what he believed was really the truth. He will seek to know more, to deepen his knowledge( PP nine house/Sagittarius) to view life through a more metaphysical, cosmological and philosophical way. The evolutionary intent is for him to be in a balanced relationship in which both partners take full responsibility for what they want, allowing each other to have their own freedom, opinions, values and ideas and feel ok with the fact that they are different.

rita

Hi,

Ari - thanks for your responses!

Pluto in the 7th, SN in the 3rd:

If Pluto in the 7th is desiring to learn who it is via comparison to others and has needed to initiate a diversity of relationships to make this happen then in this situation it seems easy to see how it had created a 3rd house ego.  Both of these houses are similar in that they are yang, air houses.  The ego symbolized by the South Node in the 3rd would have been interested in gathering lots of information from other people.  Just based on these two signatures this was probably a very outgoing individual, very social, very communicative.  This person would have needed interaction with others in order to know themselves.  They may have taken in others opinions as their own without question, or may have been very skeptical of others opinions, ideas, and beliefs.  They would have had a certain restlessness about them and with regard to relationships may have been involved in many shallow/superficial relationships without real commitment (again only based on these two signatures).  There would have been a genuine sense of curiosity.  This person would have been focused on gathering information in order to form a sense of emotional security.   However for all of their openness they may still have formed limiting opinions that hindered their growth and would probably have attracted other people (7th house) who knew more than they did and challenged their way of thinking - causing the person to have to review their own logic.  The intensity of these confrontations would have been dependent on how tightly they were holding on to their opinions.  This person could be bringing gifts/capacities related to writing, speaking, or teaching.  Possible limitations could be related to be being very scattered and to consuming too much information without a solid worldview in place through which to filter all of the details.
 
I think these signatures imply that the individual has been attempting to learn their own truth by opening up to the environment and then trying to organize all that they take in in a logical, left-brain, way.  The lesson is going to be to pick one system that resonates with them and to rely more on intuition.  I also see how this is related to the desire to learn to be an equal in relationships, especially with respect to listening.  The South Node in the 3rd may only listen to what fits with its own opinions, and the desire of the 7th house Pluto is to learn how to listen to other points of view.  In the best case, the 3rd house South Node would be very open to listening to all points of view and to communicating with real listening and respectful response instead of reaction.

-Emily

Hi Everyone,

Glad to be back on the thread!  Special thanks to Upasika for your insights and illustration regarding ego as relates to Aires, Cancer and Scorpio....I found your comments thought provoking and helpful.

Here are some of my thoughts regarding Gemini in the South Node:  This would be a soul who is coming from an ego identity based on a strongly developed intellect/mind based on its ability to organize/classify physical reality and its relationship to it....this could be a scientist.  This is someone who has been expanding sense of self through constantly learning new things.  Gemini is a mutable sign so if this person has been evolving in a positive direction he or she would be constantly expanding their understanding of themselves (ego identity) in relation to their physical environment.  This is someone who is probably a good communicator and knows how to listen to others.   This person would probably have a strong social network.  If not evolving in a progressive manner due to their egoic insecurity this person might resist expanding through new information and might instead be limited in their information sources taking in only what supports their previously established points of view.  They could be reactive, defensive in relationships with others justifying their viewpoints through well thought out logical arguments.  With Pluto in the 7th this might be someone who manipulates their partner through words or who is coyote in the sense that they appear to listen to the other but their personal agenda based on insecure ego is quite different than what appears on the surface.  They may be very reactive in their responses to their partner constantly making the partner feel they are wrong and give a good logical argument as to why.  Another possibility as far as limitation could be that they are very scattered and without any unifying system of personal truth....they might have their hands in everything but lack depth in anything....They might have totally lost the deeper sense of who they are with the other person.  Positive evolution for this person will come through the N node in Sagittarius which will require a deepening through finding their own unifying intuitive truth based on personal experience of natural law.

Kora

Happy Friday All,

My first time posting. No new insights here, but definitely good practice for me. Thanks Ari for being gracious with your time! And thanks to those who've contributed...very helpful bits.

With the SN in the 3rd, the soul has sought security by logically ordering information about its physical environment, and thereby determining its place in existence accordingly. As streams of new information are continually pouring in, the individual is confronted with the choice to either accept new ideas or to reject them. Or, of course, to unconsciously react based on her/his current framework. And while there's been the desire to find and maintain the stable mental framework that provides security, there's also the evolutionary desire to learn more about oneself via new information/experience. This dynamic creates what JWG calls 'cyclic intellectual implosions or cataclysms in which the logical structure of intellectual organization disintegrates'. So while 3rd house individuals can be dogmatic, they've also learned how to be mutable as new directly-experienced information is integrated. Lessons for the 3rd house individual involve aligning oneself with an intuitively-felt philosophical truth outside of themselves (9th house polarity). This in turn provides the 3rd house balance and mental focus.

The 7th house Pluto & 3rd house SN reveals that this soul has (in the past) gone about learning how to be an equal in relationships via the intellect and sensory experiences. Through mental feedback in each new experience, this individual has formed an understanding of its place in a relationship. The 9th house polarity would involve trusting ones 'gut' and realizing that relationships and Love are not rational and cannot be understood. It's simple to feel how movement to the 9th house essence would de-facto activate the 1st house PPP...not relying on the information feedback loop, but aligning with inner intuition.

This individual will tend to draw into her/his experience relationships with people who represent some sort of unknown in terms of information. As previous posters mentioned, there'd likely be resistance to and insecurity in light of new information and viewpoints. So while the evolutionary intent is to learn true communication, there's also a block that arises due to the 3rd house reactivity and projection. The lesson here is to open up to the 9th house polarity, realizing on a gut-level that there's an infinite number of viewpoints. Thus, giving space for true objective listening in relationships.

Hugs,
Stephen

Hi all, I'm going to begin today to respond to the interpretations that have been offered. Those who still intend to post please let me know.
With love
am

Hi Ari,

I plan to post today.

Thank you,
Gray

Hi Rita,
Once again thank you for your interpretation and your efforts. What you have written is accurate within the possibilities of these signatures.

QuoteHi Ari,
Hi All,


South Node third house Gemini, ruler Mercury, Air, masculine, mutable

To clarify in case this is not understood, Mercury is the ruler of Gemini, not the third house. The ruler of the third house depends on the sign that is on the third house cusp.

With the South Node in Gemini / third house, the evolutionary intent in the past has been to seek out and gather as much information as possible so to feel emotionally secure and safe, but usually all the information they gather lacks depth.

All this information will help the Third house SN person understand who and what he is according to his surroundings. He feels a constant desire for information, this unconscious urge pushes him in all directions to go and gather more information so as to be able to communicate and see the reactions it causes on others. This way the third house SN gets to understand who he is and what he is in relation to the surrounding.

The tendency for a third house SN  is too look for something that he believes will help him get to know himself, and along his quest, there is a new word. This  new word,  will catch his attention and at that point the third house SN/ Gemini will go off on a totally irrelevant avenue only to later become  emotionally insecure, confused and threatened with the new knowledge he now has and does not know what to do with it. Does it make sense?

Yes it does make sense and is true as a possible expression of a third house sn. This points to the 3rd house pattern of exposing oneself to way too much data, information, perspectives etc but not all of it adding up to make any sense. This can create immense confusion within the soul especially as more "data" or possibly more "opinions" present themselves - which can lead to feeling threatened, defensive, or in another way totally stuck in dualistic thinking. Relative to the position of Pluto, the question is always "why" would any of these patterns exist in the first place?

SN third house/ Gemini is a communicator, he likes to share his knowledge. He tends to like all means of communication available to him, so as to pass on/ share the information he got and  by seeing the reaction of the other he will learn what information is important and which is not.
When third house SN/Gemini becomes distorted, he will be mentally bored or frustrated  because he needs continuous mental growth. He also tends to be very sure of his truth, beliefs or points of views,( this is also a distortion of the archetype) when others show him different truths, but just as valid as his own. This creates for the SN third house a crisis of identity, as his security has been rocked and what he thought to be true may effectively not be so true.

Yes this is true. In the 3rd house a soul can create an intellectual organization of reality in it's mind where all the facts and data measure up in a certain way. Since there is literally an infinite amount to learn about reality, there will always be more facts, more data to synthesize and connect the dots. Jeff Green describes the learning process inherent to Gemini as a "series of progressively expanding concentric circles" which is the basis of what we call "opinions" - conclusions made based on what is currently known. This is the inherent limitation to the 3rd house - not everything can ever be known.

However the opposite to what you described above is often true: A soul that is stuck in reactive thought patterns that can see the pro's and cons to everything; all sides to any argument/perspective/idea and not knowing which one to "choose".

The PPP of third house /Gemini is Sagittarius 9 house, this archetype correlates to the intuition, teachers, and the need to understand life in a cosmological,metaphysical and philosophical way. SN / third house / Gemini will gather information and through the  PP 9 house /Sagittarius he will realize that in order to understand more about life, he needs to stop accumulating all this different information and focus on one or two subjects and understand them in a deeper cosmological and metaphysical way.

With Pluto in the seventh house / Libra and the SN in the third house /Gemini,  he has had many relationships with different people so as to get to know himself through the attitudes, behavior, opinions and beliefs of others  thus creating for himself a secure and safe environment. The potential for unbalanced / unequal relationships in which he does not really have an identity of his own occurs.

Beautiful synthesis of Pluto with the sn Rita. This soul can adopt so easily to whomever it is talking to/in relationship with in the moment.

This because he has been doing for so long what others do without questioning for himself if there are other ways, other truths or other religions existent.

One way to think of this is as a pattern of duplicity: trying on different perspectives and speaking various things with different people, which in this case is all rooted in the unresolved desires of the soul to be liked, needed, accepted etc (7th house). This points back to the core limitations of the soul, where it has used it's own mental capacities to perpetuate and secure it's dependencies on other people.

Eventually he will create a crisis because of his beliefs, opinions and encounter other peoples different points of view that threaten his own. This will force him to interiorize and seek for himself what to believe or not to believe. The PPP is the first House Aries, this points to the need that this individual will have to go out and discover for himself what different values, opinions, religions are out there.

At the core it's about the soul listening to itself, not everyone else. Not collecting more values, opinions, religions - but rather, simplifying and focusing. Depending on the nature of its karma, this soul may attract to itself all kinds of points of views from so many people. This is more about the soul weeding out (Pluto) it's relationship patterns to listen to so many people (7th house is the archetype of "listening") and trusting its gut (1st house Pluto polarity point). Notice the movement is towards fire (1st house, 9th house). So it's all about intuition, inner knowing, and self direction.

He will use (SN third house/ Gemini)his relationships with his immediate family, school friends and small gatherings to form his own opinion about himself,  as his opinions become more formed he will share them with conviction on to others that will have completely different points of views, creating in him doubts, which in turn become insecurities.

This is possible, and I want to add some more perspective to this. In any conversation this soul may have, the key is to not resort to reactive thinking and reactive conversation - where everything heard can become a point that elicits a counter point. This soul can also easily mirror (7th house) other people's conversation patterns and other people's thought patterns to the point that this soul will literally chameleon itself in any conversation. The point would be for this soul to stay close to it's own inner knowing of the truth and to not communicate based on it's underlying desire to be liked/approved/accepted by others.

He no longer can be sure that what he believed was really the truth. He will seek to know more, to deepen his knowledge( PP nine house/Sagittarius) to view life through a more metaphysical, cosmological and philosophical way. The evolutionary intent is for him to be in a balanced relationship in which both partners take full responsibility for what they want, allowing each other to have their own freedom, opinions, values and ideas and feel ok with the fact that they are different.

The evolutionary intent is not balanced relationships. The evolutionary intent it is for the soul to establish a relationship with itself first and foremost. Balanced relationship is what is learned and affected as a result of the soul embracing it's polarity point via the north node: to develop the intuition, alone - not dependent on other people.

rita

With love,
Ari Moshe

Hi Emily,
Thank you for your interpretation. Everything you wrote is an accurate synthesis of these signatures.

QuoteHi,

Ari - thanks for your responses!

Pluto in the 7th, SN in the 3rd:

If Pluto in the 7th is desiring to learn who it is via comparison to others and has needed to initiate a diversity of relationships to make this happen then in this situation it seems easy to see how it had created a 3rd house ego.  Both of these houses are similar in that they are yang, air houses.  The ego symbolized by the South Node in the 3rd would have been interested in gathering lots of information from other people.  Just based on these two signatures this was probably a very outgoing individual, very social, very communicative.  This person would have needed interaction with others in order to know themselves.  They may have taken in others opinions as their own without question, or may have been very skeptical of others opinions, ideas, and beliefs.  They would have had a certain restlessness about them and with regard to relationships may have been involved in many shallow/superficial relationships without real commitment (again only based on these two signatures).  There would have been a genuine sense of curiosity.  This person would have been focused on gathering information in order to form a sense of emotional security.   

However for all of their openness they may still have formed limiting opinions that hindered their growth and would probably have attracted other people (7th house) who knew more than they did and challenged their way of thinking - causing the person to have to review their own logic.  The intensity of these confrontations would have been dependent on how tightly they were holding on to their opinions.  This person could be bringing gifts/capacities related to writing, speaking, or teaching.  Possible limitations could be related to be being very scattered and to consuming too much information without a solid worldview in place through which to filter all of the details.
 
I think these signatures imply that the individual has been attempting to learn their own truth by opening up to the environment and then trying to organize all that they take in in a logical, left-brain, way.  The lesson is going to be to pick one system that resonates with them and to rely more on intuition.  I also see how this is related to the desire to learn to be an equal in relationships, especially with respect to listening.  The South Node in the 3rd may only listen to what fits with its own opinions, and the desire of the 7th house Pluto is to learn how to listen to other points of view.  In the best case, the 3rd house South Node would be very open to listening to all points of view and to communicating with real listening and respectful response instead of reaction.

Yes, all very true. This soul can be a truly great listener and be skilled at hearing all that an other person is saying. They may have various gifts related to that which might make them a great counselor: the capacity to listen to others and take in all different perspectives and reflect those perspectives back to the individual.

And as you pointed to this signature can also point to reactive listening patterns, where everything one partner says becomes the trigger for a counter thought in the other partner which is then immediately communicated.

-Emily

With love,
Ari Moshe

Hi Kora,
Thank you for your interpretation. Everything you wrote is an accurate synthesis of these signatures.

QuoteHi Everyone,

Glad to be back on the thread!  Special thanks to Upasika for your insights and illustration regarding ego as relates to Aires, Cancer and Scorpio....I found your comments thought provoking and helpful.

Here are some of my thoughts regarding Gemini in the South Node:  This would be a soul who is coming from an ego identity based on a strongly developed intellect/mind based on its ability to organize/classify physical reality and its relationship to it....this could be a scientist. 

This is someone who has been expanding sense of self through constantly learning new things.  Gemini is a mutable sign so if this person has been evolving in a positive direction he or she would be constantly expanding their understanding of themselves (ego identity) in relation to their physical environment.  This is someone who is probably a good communicator and knows how to listen to others.   This person would probably have a strong social network.  If not evolving in a progressive manner due to their egoic insecurity this person might resist expanding through new information and might instead be limited in their information sources taking in only what supports their previously established points of view. 

They could be reactive, defensive in relationships with others justifying their viewpoints through well thought out logical arguments.  With Pluto in the 7th this might be someone who manipulates their partner through words or who is coyote in the sense that they appear to listen to the other but their personal agenda based on insecure ego is quite different than what appears on the surface. 

They may be very reactive in their responses to their partner constantly making the partner feel they are wrong and give a good logical argument as to why.  Another possibility as far as limitation could be that they are very scattered and without any unifying system of personal truth....they might have their hands in everything but lack depth in anything....They might have totally lost the deeper sense of who they are with the other person.  Positive evolution for this person will come through the N node in Sagittarius which will require a deepening through finding their own unifying intuitive truth based on personal experience of natural law.

Kora

Really great job Kora. You touched upon both sides of this signature: what it looks like for the soul to play the dominant or submissive role in relationships.
With love,
Ari Moshe

Hi Stephen, welcome to this message board!
Thanks for your post and participation here. Everything you wrote is accurate within the possibilities of these signatures.

QuoteHappy Friday All,

My first time posting. No new insights here, but definitely good practice for me. Thanks Ari for being gracious with your time! And thanks to those who've contributed...very helpful bits.

With the SN in the 3rd, the soul has sought security by logically ordering information about its physical environment, and thereby determining its place in existence accordingly. As streams of new information are continually pouring in, the individual is confronted with the choice to either accept new ideas or to reject them. Or, of course, to unconsciously react based on her/his current framework. And while there's been the desire to find and maintain the stable mental framework that provides security, there's also the evolutionary desire to learn more about oneself via new information/experience.

This dynamic creates what JWG calls 'cyclic intellectual implosions or cataclysms in which the logical structure of intellectual organization disintegrates'. So while 3rd house individuals can be dogmatic, they've also learned how to be mutable as new directly-experienced information is integrated. Lessons for the 3rd house individual involve aligning oneself with an intuitively-felt philosophical truth outside of themselves (9th house polarity). This in turn provides the 3rd house balance and mental focus.

Outside of its linear mental faculties.

The 7th house Pluto & 3rd house SN reveals that this soul has (in the past) gone about learning how to be an equal in relationships via the intellect and sensory experiences.

I do not think that "sensory" is accurate here. I understand sensory to relate to Taurus. If I am wrong, Rad or someone else will jump in here and clarify this.

Through mental feedback in each new experience, this individual has formed an understanding of its place in a relationship. The 9th house polarity would involve trusting ones 'gut' and realizing that relationships and Love are not rational and cannot be understood.

To clarify: 9th house = intuition. 1st house is more of a gut/instinct thing. Of course they are very tied in together via the natural trine between Sag and Aries.

It's simple to feel how movement to the 9th house essence would de-facto activate the 1st house PPP...not relying on the information feedback loop, but aligning with inner intuition. This individual will tend to draw into her/his experience relationships with people who represent some sort of unknown in terms of information.

Beautifully said and very true

As previous posters mentioned, there'd likely be resistance to and insecurity in light of new information and viewpoints. So while the evolutionary intent is to learn true communication, there's also a block that arises due to the 3rd house reactivity and projection. The lesson here is to open up to the 9th house polarity, realizing on a gut-level that there's an infinite number of viewpoints. Thus, giving space for true objective listening in relationships.

To clarify: The evolutionary intent is to listen to oneself, to know one's truth from within, independent of others.

Hugs,
Stephen

With love,
Ari Moshe

Hi all, I feel called to offer some further reflections. And soon I hope to quote some teachings from Jeff Green about these signatures.

The main thing to remember is that Pluto is the bottom line - unresolved desires linked to relationship. Thus the nature of those desires have, in the end, been the basis for the creation of this particular 3rd house ego. When we are unconscious of our desires (which we all are to a strong degree) it defacto manifests as compulsions and patterns of manipulation.

One thing that hasn't been explored too much yet has been the dynamics of dominance and submission within this soul. The way this soul knows how to adopt to various social circumstances, to "speak the language" of others - can express as an ability to know what to say, how to give to others according to what others seem to need, to know how to be agreeable, and to adopt communication styles of other people.

This of course creates an imbalanced power dynamic and it can go either way. One partner may always have the answer, always have an opinion to everything that is said, or always be very quick to respond - leading eventually to the other partner feeling unheard and unlistened to. The pressure of that imbalance, if it is not internalized and acted upon via new choices, eventually leads to some sort of eruption or cataclysm.

The soul may also have developed an insucurity in relationships wheirin it is constantly "giving" to the other by way of responding to everything that is said when a response isn't necessarily warranted or needed. In some cases the partner will EXPECT a response so as to feel secure (ie saying something and wanting/expecting to hear some sort of validation as a response). If the soul with this signature is responding to their partner so as to make their partner feel secure, then it is not being truthful about itself, but rather adopting a specific communication behavior on the basis of needing to meet the needs of the partner. To not exhibit these patterns may result in the partner not feeling heard or listened to. This would open to the door to all these emotions/projections/needs/fears which may or may not be shared. Relative to the nn in the 9th house - telling the truth is the point.

We'll explore the north node and the polarity point soon...
With love,
Ari Moshe

Hello Ari and group,


This combination will have previously manifested a 3rd House identity in pursuit of 7th House relationship desires, continuing to be drawn in this direction while also working on a north node movement toward the 9th house.  Thus the Pluto drive for relationship is colored by a tendency to seek security in mental organization of the phenomenal world they find themselves in.  On the one hand, those evolving forward are  learning the 7th House Pluto lessons that come from the movement toward the 1st House polarity, including forming a strong sense of Self and relationship to Self so they can become more secure in their choice of entering a relationship as well as more secure and balanced while interacting in their relationships, instead of entering relationships out of a compulsive desire for the security of being in a relationship with someone.  However, as long as there is an unbalanced aspect of their 7th House Pluto it will also therefore influence their 3rd House tendencies and cause the 3rd House dynamic to play out in a manner that is more about maintaining their 7th House relationships in a compulsive manner.  So, the point is just to remember to re-connect the 3rd House archetypal patterns back to the fact that this soul is also working on 7th House archetypal patterns.

Ari, I originally had not thought of commenting upon the aspect relating to this that you did in your recent post, but that idea really resonates for me with this dynamic and I would like to comment on it.  The importance of the movement toward the 9th House can truly be seen here, and does indeed relate to the importance of discovering and expressing Honesty in relation to the 3rd/9th axis of development- it is about integrating the development of 9th House Intuition along with the development of a clearer and more discerning relationship with the true Self that comes from movement to the Pluto polarity of the 1st House.  I feel this is one of the most important lessons for a soul with these dynamics to learn. With the tendency of a 7th House Pluto to give to a partner and give to relationships, and also possessing the ability to tune into the desires and thinking of others in relationships, the danger of losing themselves in the process can be accentuated with the spiral/mutable nature of the 3rd house South Node given its archetypal ability to mentally absorb concepts and ideas in its environment, and become a social chameleon of sorts able to navigate diverse conversations while lacking a deep rooted core sense of Self and belief for their mental skills to ground into.  As a result it is imperative to gain the security to listen to themselves and figure out what they truly believe and think and have the confidence to communicate this to others and be able to listen to the opinions of others without being overly influenced or manipulated by the opinions and beliefs of others.  Intuition is such a perfect symbol of this need, as it is centered more in the body and is a truly personal skill of discernment.  The more these individuals are able to develop their intuition, and not only listen to it but also have the courage to follow it, in the end it will help them also experience great growth in their 7th House Pluto issues.  They will learn how to develop healthier boundaries for themselves in their relationships and learn how to express their true needs without repressing them due to being afraid of hurting the feelings of their partner.  As they cultivate their intuition to higher levels, and also learn from the disillusionment and difficulties of their experiences, they will gain greater clarity for when to give versus when not to give, and when they need to put more emphasis on their own needs in a dynamic versus when the needs they feel are more compulsive relationship desires and not their real truth, for example deciding to be present and giving despite the opposite compulsive desire of feeling like they need space from the relationship. In the end, as Ari mentioned, it is about them telling the truth and learning to act from their truth separate from compulsive relationship desires of a 7th House Pluto-  Ari's point about being honest and telling the truth instead of acting in a way to make the partner feel more secure is very insightful to me and of utmost importance for someone with this signature.

Interestingly, a lot of the dynamics of this signature relate to honesty and expressing truth, which connects with the idea that there are many people with many different versions of truth, that there is also a greater Truth, but that there is also a limited amount in the end that can be completely understood on an intellectual level towards this greater Truth.  With the 7th House Pluto aspect, there is also the importance of more traditional notions of truth and honesty; with a 3rd House south node as has been mentioned it is important to gain the inner confidence to express their own truth and own true opinions instead of trying to fit them in with the opinions of others to please them.  When there are some unbalanced tendencies toward manipulation, there could be 3rd House tendencies to figure out what someone is looking for in a conversation or relationship and then continually adjust and readjust their statements and thinking to fit each new development, without a central guiding principle- this reminds me of a duplicitous politician who continually changes his political views to continue to advance his political position to fit each new political context he finds himself within.  When there is a 7th House Pluto in the mix with a 3rd House  south node, it is thus fundamentally important to be working on the bottom line issues of the stronger and clearer relationship to the Self, the Pluto relationship issues, at the same time the nodal development to the 9th house is happening.

The 3rd house past soul history archetype commonly is about a tendency to gain security for oneself through being able to understand intellectual or mental aspects of one's reality.  As a result they will often form relationships that are spurring on development and growth of their mental understanding of their world.  Especially if there are planets squaring the nodal axis, most likely the Soul as already been working on the movement toward the 9th House and going back and forth along the axis of development- the movement toward the 9th House includes cultivating clearer Intuition, cultivating the ability to respond to situations and relationships rather than react, and being able to integrate their diverse 3rd House mental exploration of reality into a more wholistic understanding of their world, often connected with an ancient wisdom lineage that takes a metaphysical or cosmic perspective into understanding their reality. Through relationships they are learning that truth is relative to the egoic perspective of each human around them, and that ultimately there is also a greater Truth that all of these relative perceptions of truth connect to;  however, at the same time that there is only so much of this great Truth they can ultimately understand with their rational mind. Through the process of going so far in mental explorations of a 3rd House nature, at some point they will realize they need to actually simplify and focus and be more present and intuitive with their reality- in the end this will get them closer to their truth than exhausting their mental capacities in an unending search for new information about the meaning of everything.  However, until this happens, the 3rd house south node will give the tendency to be continually expanding their intellectual understanding of the world through their relationships.  

As JWG wrote in the first Pluto book, the desire of a 3rd house archetype does not necessarily mean that they would have been searching for the deeper, metaphysical reasoning behind this mental knowledge- for example, some will be more about learning the prevailing or consensus mental concepts dominating their culture and finding security by going along with those beliefs. JWG also noted that this can be about "facts verified through the senses" (p.72) which I think is where that "sensory" comment noted earlier could have come from? The 3rd house south node would give the tendency for a 7th house Pluto to find part of their security through this mental understanding and connection with others, and yet the spiral nature of the attraction/repulsion would attract relationships at points that would help propel them out of a previously limiting mindset into a more expansive viewpoint.  As some develop into individuation, it becomes more about discovering mental concepts and ideas that go against the status quo through their relationships and interactions, or that help explain the issues and agitation and anger they feel toward consensus reality and oppression linked with the status quo; some of these people could then use their 3rd House mental exploration to criticize consensus reality, or protest against it.  As JWG noted, a lot of people at this stage will be resistant to conforming to any pre-existing metaphysical system of knowledge, until they start learning more of the spiritual 9th house directional importance of simplifying and focusing upon a pre-existing metaphysical system that provides a wider cosmic viewpoint to process through. In any case, the emphasis toward the 3rd house would be more about gaining new information or expanding thinking instead of simplifying it or focusing it more intuitively in a 9th house direction.  And the 3rd house pattern of mental development will tend to continue until some sort of confrontation occurs which causes them to rethink their mental perspective; for those with 7th house Pluto this would tend to happen from relationships. And the reason why behind this is because their mental perspective had become too limiting for their development forward, and they realize there is a larger perspective to take in.

It will be through relationships that this soul signature will experience this 3rd/9th house development.  For example, they may begin life surrounded by family, family friends, and immediate culture that is putting forth a fairly consistent belief structure, that eventually as they grow up they realize is not really their true belief system perhaps- why, someone over there thinks this way, and that person over there thinks that way, and what an interesting point and feeling this singer is making in this song, and so forth. And so can begin a long and exhaustive exploration of a wide variety of philosophies and beliefs.  And as there is greater security at times found through developing a system of understanding reality, if that system of thinking is ultimately limiting for their development, they will experience disillusionment or a confrontation in relationship that forces them to reconsider their beliefs and make them realize there is more to understand.  But ultimately going on a neverending search for more information will not lead them to what they truly need to develop- the ability to listen to themselves and their intuition, as well as the ability to truly listen to what another is saying in a relationship and respond based upon that understanding.  Otherwise, they may be reactive in conversation and relationships, using each interaction to test their own understanding or put forth their own viewpoint.  And they can become too scattered, and also risk the danger of losing themselves in the philosophies and thinking of others, thinking and beliefs that may not be truly resonant for their true sense of self.  But as the gain the confidence of the 1st house Pluto polarity point to figure out what they truly think and also have the confidence to express it, as well as not be overly defensive or reactive to the opinions and truths of others around them, they will likewise be able to more strongly move into the 9th house direction of being able to truly respond to others in conversation without feeling reactive or the need to prove that their opinion is right and correct, and they will also be able to better develop their intuition and be able to discern more clearly in the present moment of each interaction what they truly think in response to that moment, without being influenced by the opinions of others around them.

JWG in the first Pluto book also has interesting points about 3rd House Pluto people sometimes wanting to develop their own metaphysical systems- I wonder if this still connects with a South Node signature as strongly, but I feel that with a 7th House Pluto this could happen at a stage of development potentially.  That through all of these diverse relationships and mental explorations they could begin to take a thing here from this, and thing here from that, and start to put together their own metaphysical understanding of things.  However, ultimately they would realize the limited nature of this endeavor, and gain the capacity to see the wisdom in many of the ancient wisdom lineages around them, and that as they simplify and focus their understanding and learning into one of these lineages, they can come to greater understanding in the end through gaining greater focus and clarity of mind.  The important aspect again with all of this is the relationship they develop with themselves, so that the process of learning the wisdom lineage would not be about losing connection with their own intuition and sense of self, it would be part of the process of simplifying and having greater focus and ability to act from intuition with the ability and humility to respond to others instead of react.



Love and blessings,
Gray

Thanks Gray, for all the time and insights!

And big thanks Ari, for again asserting that Pluto is the bottom line intention here. Also, thanks for pointing out the difference between gut/instinct and intuition, and the trine between them. Guessing 'third eye' would correlate better to intuition than the gut.

Hi all, just wanted to let you know I made a few corrections/revisions to my response to Rita.

Thanks for you post Gray - I'll be back to look at that tomorrow.
God bless, with love,
Ari Moshe

Hi Gray, thank you once again for your contribution here. What you have written is accurate for this signature save for a couple corrections.

QuoteHello Ari and group,

This combination will have previously manifested a 3rd House identity in pursuit of 7th House relationship desires, continuing to be drawn in this direction while also working on a north node movement toward the 9th house.

Why would you say that this soul is also necessarily working on movement towards the nn? What implies that as a fact?

Thus the Pluto drive for relationship is colored by a tendency to seek security in mental organization of the phenomenal world they find themselves in. 

On the one hand, those evolving forward are  learning the 7th House Pluto lessons that come from the movement toward the 1st House polarity, including forming a strong sense of Self and relationship to Self so they can become more secure in their choice of entering a relationship as well as more secure and balanced while interacting in their relationships, instead of entering relationships out of a compulsive desire for the security of being in a relationship with someone.  However, as long as there is an unbalanced aspect of their 7th House Pluto it will also therefore influence their 3rd House tendencies and cause the 3rd House dynamic to play out in a manner that is more about maintaining their 7th House relationships in a compulsive manner.  So, the point is just to remember to re-connect the 3rd House archetypal patterns back to the fact that this soul is also working on 7th House archetypal patterns.

Ari, I originally had not thought of commenting upon the aspect relating to this that you did in your recent post, but that idea really resonates for me with this dynamic and I would like to comment on it.  The importance of the movement toward the 9th House can truly be seen here, and does indeed relate to the importance of discovering and expressing Honesty in relation to the 3rd/9th axis of development- it is about integrating the development of 9th House Intuition along with the development of a clearer and more discerning relationship with the true Self that comes from movement to the Pluto polarity of the 1st House.  I feel this is one of the most important lessons for a soul with these dynamics to learn.

With the tendency of a 7th House Pluto to give to a partner and give to relationships, and also possessing the ability to tune into the desires and thinking of others in relationships, the danger of losing themselves in the process can be accentuated with the spiral/mutable nature of the 3rd house South Node given its archetypal ability to mentally absorb concepts and ideas in its environment, and become a social chameleon of sorts able to navigate diverse conversations while lacking a deep rooted core sense of Self and belief for their mental skills to ground into.  As a result it is imperative to gain the security to listen to themselves and figure out what they truly believe and think and have the confidence to communicate this to others and be able to listen to the opinions of others without being overly influenced or manipulated by the opinions and beliefs of others.  Intuition is such a perfect symbol of this need, as it is centered more in the body and is a truly personal skill of discernment. 

I understand what your saying - However I'm not certain if its accurate to say the intuition is centered in the body. What you wrote feels specifically relevant to a combination of Sag with Virgo. If anyone has an ea perspective to offer regarding this, please do so.

The more these individuals are able to develop their intuition, and not only listen to it but also have the courage to follow it, in the end it will help them also experience great growth in their 7th House Pluto issues.  They will learn how to develop healthier boundaries for themselves in their relationships and learn how to express their true needs without repressing them due to being afraid of hurting the feelings of their partner.

I don't know if "repress" is the right word, since repress is specific to the Capricorn archetype. What I would refine is that this soul might mimic its environment, adopt the communication styles of another and try to "fit in" in order to meet the projected needs of another. This leads to imbalance in these relationships, deeper needs not being met, and the possibility of dependencies being created through the sustaining of such patterns.

One thing to add to this is the dynamic of curiosity. The soul can be authentically interested in learning about other people to the point that it will consistently over-expose itself to too much social interaction, and in the end will feel drained and depleted by all these relationships. This then creates the need for the soul to be alone at times in order to integrate and process through all the absorbed psychic material. This can be a repetitive pattern if the soul doesn't seek to look inside itself and understand why this keeps on happening in the first place.

As they cultivate their intuition to higher levels, and also learn from the disillusionment and difficulties of their experiences, they will gain greater clarity for when to give versus when not to give, and when they need to put more emphasis on their own needs in a dynamic versus when the needs they feel are more compulsive relationship desires and not their real truth, for example deciding to be present and giving despite the opposite compulsive desire of feeling like they need space from the relationship. In the end, as Ari mentioned, it is about them telling the truth and learning to act from their truth separate from compulsive relationship desires of a 7th House Pluto-  Ari's point about being honest and telling the truth instead of acting in a way to make the partner feel more secure is very insightful to me and of utmost importance for someone with this signature.

Interestingly, a lot of the dynamics of this signature relate to honesty and expressing truth, which connects with the idea that there are many people with many different versions of truth, that there is also a greater Truth, but that there is also a limited amount in the end that can be completely understood on an intellectual level towards this greater Truth.  With the 7th House Pluto aspect, there is also the importance of more traditional notions of truth and honesty; with a 3rd House south node as has been mentioned it is important to gain the inner confidence to express their own truth and own true opinions instead of trying to fit them in with the opinions of others to please them. 

When there are some unbalanced tendencies toward manipulation, there could be 3rd House tendencies to figure out what someone is looking for in a conversation or relationship and then continually adjust and readjust their statements and thinking to fit each new development, without a central guiding principle- this reminds me of a duplicitous politician who continually changes his political views to continue to advance his political position to fit each new political context he finds himself within.  When there is a 7th House Pluto in the mix with a 3rd House  south node, it is thus fundamentally important to be working on the bottom line issues of the stronger and clearer relationship to the Self, the Pluto relationship issues, at the same time the nodal development to the 9th house is happening.

The 3rd house past soul history archetype commonly is about a tendency to gain security for oneself through being able to understand intellectual or mental aspects of one's reality.  As a result they will often form relationships that are spurring on development and growth of their mental understanding of their world.  Especially if there are planets squaring the nodal axis, most likely the Soul as already been working on the movement toward the 9th House and going back and forth along the axis of development-

There are no planets squaring the nodal axis in the signatures I have given, thus as far as we know there has been no flip flopping.

the movement toward the 9th House includes cultivating clearer Intuition, cultivating the ability to respond to situations and relationships rather than react, and being able to integrate their diverse 3rd House mental exploration of reality into a more wholistic understanding of their world, often connected with an ancient wisdom lineage that takes a metaphysical or cosmic perspective into understanding their reality.

Through relationships they are learning that truth is relative to the egoic perspective of each human around them, and that ultimately there is also a greater Truth that all of these relative perceptions of truth connect to;  however, at the same time that there is only so much of this great Truth they can ultimately understand with their rational mind. Through the process of going so far in mental explorations of a 3rd House nature, at some point they will realize they need to actually simplify and focus and be more present and intuitive with their reality- in the end this will get them closer to their truth than exhausting their mental capacities in an unending search for new information about the meaning of everything.  However, until this happens, the 3rd house south node will give the tendency to be continually expanding their intellectual understanding of the world through their relationships. 

As JWG wrote in the first Pluto book, the desire of a 3rd house archetype does not necessarily mean that they would have been searching for the deeper, metaphysical reasoning behind this mental knowledge- for example, some will be more about learning the prevailing or consensus mental concepts dominating their culture and finding security by going along with those beliefs. JWG also noted that this can be about "facts verified through the senses" (p.72) which I think is where that "sensory" comment noted earlier could have come from?

Thanks for clarifying that.

The 3rd house south node would give the tendency for a 7th house Pluto to find part of their security through this mental understanding and connection with others, and yet the spiral nature of the attraction/repulsion would attract relationships at points that would help propel them out of a previously limiting mindset into a more expansive viewpoint.  As some develop into individuation, it becomes more about discovering mental concepts and ideas that go against the status quo through their relationships and interactions, or that help explain the issues and agitation and anger they feel toward consensus reality and oppression linked with the status quo; some of these people could then use their 3rd House mental exploration to criticize consensus reality, or protest against it.  As JWG noted, a lot of people at this stage will be resistant to conforming to any pre-existing metaphysical system of knowledge, until they start learning more of the spiritual 9th house directional importance of simplifying and focusing upon a pre-existing metaphysical system that provides a wider cosmic viewpoint to process through. In any case, the emphasis toward the 3rd house would be more about gaining new information or expanding thinking instead of simplifying it or focusing it more intuitively in a 9th house direction.  And the 3rd house pattern of mental development will tend to continue until some sort of confrontation occurs which causes them to rethink their mental perspective; for those with 7th house Pluto this would tend to happen from relationships. And the reason why behind this is because their mental perspective had become too limiting for their development forward, and they realize there is a larger perspective to take in.

It will be through relationships that this soul signature will experience this 3rd/9th house development.  For example, they may begin life surrounded by family, family friends, and immediate culture that is putting forth a fairly consistent belief structure, that eventually as they grow up they realize is not really their true belief system perhaps- why, someone over there thinks this way, and that person over there thinks that way, and what an interesting point and feeling this singer is making in this song, and so forth. And so can begin a long and exhaustive exploration of a wide variety of philosophies and beliefs. 

And as there is greater security at times found through developing a system of understanding reality, if that system of thinking is ultimately limiting for their development, they will experience disillusionment or a confrontation in relationship that forces them to reconsider their beliefs and make them realize there is more to understand.  But ultimately going on a neverending search for more information will not lead them to what they truly need to develop- the ability to listen to themselves and their intuition, as well as the ability to truly listen to what another is saying in a relationship and respond based upon that understanding. 

Otherwise, they may be reactive in conversation and relationships, using each interaction to test their own understanding or put forth their own viewpoint.  And they can become too scattered, and also risk the danger of losing themselves in the philosophies and thinking of others, thinking and beliefs that may not be truly resonant for their true sense of self.  But as the gain the confidence of the 1st house Pluto polarity point to figure out what they truly think and also have the confidence to express it, as well as not be overly defensive or reactive to the opinions and truths of others around them, they will likewise be able to more strongly move into the 9th house direction of being able to truly respond to others in conversation without feeling reactive or the need to prove that their opinion is right and correct, and they will also be able to better develop their intuition and be able to discern more clearly in the present moment of each interaction what they truly think in response to that moment, without being influenced by the opinions of others around them.

JWG in the first Pluto book also has interesting points about 3rd House Pluto people sometimes wanting to develop their own metaphysical systems- I wonder if this still connects with a South Node signature as strongly, but I feel that with a 7th House Pluto this could happen at a stage of development potentially.  That through all of these diverse relationships and mental explorations they could begin to take a thing here from this, and thing here from that, and start to put together their own metaphysical understanding of things.  However, ultimately they would realize the limited nature of this endeavor, and gain the capacity to see the wisdom in many of the ancient wisdom lineages around them, and that as they simplify and focus their understanding and learning into one of these lineages, they can come to greater understanding in the end through gaining greater focus and clarity of mind.  The important aspect again with all of this is the relationship they develop with themselves, so that the process of learning the wisdom lineage would not be about losing connection with their own intuition and sense of self, it would be part of the process of simplifying and having greater focus and ability to act from intuition with the ability and humility to respond to others instead of react.

Love and blessings,
Gray

With love,
Ari Moshe

Hi Stephen, since you brought it up, I thought I'd offer a point of clarification that you can look further into if you wish.

I don't know much about the third eye as actual knowledge I feel competent to speak about, however I do not recall ever learning that it correlates with Sag.

I know Jeff Green has taught that the third eye, within the chakra system, is linked to the Moon and the Sun.

Sag/intuition is the right brain, and within the chakra system correlates to the sacral ckara - along with Neptune.
With love
am

Hi all!

Thank you everyone for your posts. Everyone who has posted has exemplified a comprehension and correct application of this ea paradigm. At this point, before we move to the next step, I want to invite any further reflections or questions on these signatures. And as always if anyone more experienced in this work wishes to offer further reflection on these signatures, please do so.

Also, several of you have addressed the north node and the Pluto polarity point. Just to remind everyone, at this point we are only working with Pluto and the south node - so while it's ok, there is no need to address the nn and the polarity point all that much at this point. The reason for this is to get a firm foundation in understanding the underlying desires and the subsequent karmic dynamics and tendencies of the past that are being brought forth into this life as a strong starting point.

God bless, with love,
Ari Moshe

Hi Ari and everyone.

Sn 3rd house/Pluto 7th house:
The Soul is coming from a series of lives in which it has programmed a persona who has gathered and ordered information in order to expand it's knowledge of the mind and by doing so to feel secure. In this life the person is drawing upon a series of lives where the soul has desired to learn how to be in relationships with other in order to be able to listen to itself (PPP) and as a byproduct (by being able to stay true to itself) be able to give to others according to their reality (for good or for worse). On the way, the persona that has been created has approached relationships in a mental fashion and communication as well as media (I guess even in the "old days" they had some media) has been how it has the person has expanded its data banks. To give an example, it's possible that the person has taken in information from other people on how other they involve themselves in relationship (2nd hand knowledge"¦gathering opinions) and have tried to apply this in their own relationship. It's possible that some of its relationships have been where the Sn in the 3rd person feels that the other person have new information that can be of interest to the person (however, not in a Sagittarius way). In any way, because of the trine between the 3rd and 7th house, it has probably been easy for this person to listen and hear other peoples viewpoints in a relationship. This is not to say that the person has operated with the best of intentions and the possibility of manipulation is of course there. So you could still have the different scenarios that JWG speaks about (Pluto in the 7th house). In essence what you have is a series of lives in which the person has sought a variety of relationships in order to expand on its knowledge through linear train of thought and where it has learned how to listen (thus decreasing its reactive tendencies) to other within relationships. Within this, ther is a spectrum of possibilities as to how this person has used this ability. The person could have manipulated relationships (by playing back the other persons reality while pushing it's own agenda) or it could have done pretty much the same thing but to be subservient in a relationship"¦and all facets in between.
I know this isn't a full exploration of the spectrum of possibilities of these three achetypes (Pluto, 7th house, and 3rd house), but I just wanted to post something to see if I'm on the right track here.

Thank you for this possibility.

All the best,
Henrik

Ari, thank you for your feedback.  I did realize after writing that I had focused too much on the 9th house and the Pluto polarity point, instead of just focusing on the 3rd house. I'll work on having better focus with that as I am writing- figured I might as well just share what I wrote, though.

Funny about your comment about intuition and the body- after reading that, I realized I have a combination of Sagitarius and Virgo in my own chart so I was probably speaking more from my own experience there.

I really appreciate the focus you are giving to the 3rd house past pattern influence.  Its insightful how you described the pattern of how the 3rd south node/7th pluto would be trying to please a partner more so than expressing self-needs, and how that leads to dependencies in relationship.  It is illuminating for me to think about the difference in meaning from wording it the way you did instead of using the word "repress" like I did- I get what you mean by this, and I think that is a fundamental 3rd House issue.  Especially in combination with a 7th house Pluto, there is the ability to figure out the projected needs and expectations of a partner and then try to fit in with it through the 3rd house patterns, even being able to mutate and change as the partner's expectations change.  This is a fundamental problem as the 3rd house south node/7th house Pluto person is not being truly authentic, so in some way or another they will eventually disappoint the partner most likely since they are not truly being authentic in the way they are going about meeting the needs of their partner, and they will also catalyze their own 7th house Pluto issues- they are not being honest with themselves or honestly stating their own needs, so they will most likely not have their needs met in their relationship, and all sorts of difficult back and forth projections in the relationship can ensue between the partners, with the attraction/repulsion aspect of the 7th house Pluto getting very much involved.  The "dependencies" aspect here can be a real problem, including that the 3rd house pattern has led them to foster a dependency with their partner, and since they haven't honestly been expressing their own needs or thinking in complete truth, sooner or later its going to come out that the partner can't really be dependent upon them for meeting their expectations and since a dependency has been developed it will make this issue all the more intense.  The flip side being that as has been mentioned, they can also be effective counselors, listeners, and mirrors to others in relationship- however, unless they are working on the 9th house nodal direction and Pluto relationship issues, there can be some of these difficult dynamics developing in the relationship.

I also appreciated your feedback about how curious 3rd house south node people can be, and that with the 7th house Pluto this will lead to a lot of social engagement they ultimately find to be exhausting, which then leads to them needing time alone to recharge.  This also makes me think of how they will probably tend to be attracted to relationships based upon a mental aspect, and if they are staying in a 3rd house pattern of relating this could mean they could remain more reactive in interactions and also be done with the relationship once they move on to being interested in different mental concepts they can find in other relationships.  When they meet someone that they feel can cause them some mental growth- this could be about learning more about a subject they are already interested in, or it could be from a sense that a potential relationship carries information that is confrontational and disruptive to their thinking but that there is an attraction for engaging it because of the subsequent growth it will cause mentally-  they could then use a 3rd house ability to figure out how to engage the new relationship and then also continue it by fitting in with the mental frameworks of the conversations.  If they have a tendency to be reacting, it could be even be with someone with whom they tend to have intense arguments that are nonetheless dramatic and compelling to participate in.  If they aren't evolving out of a purely mental attraction like this in relationships, they could then have a tendency to move on to other relationships once they no longer feel the need to learn about the mental information or philosophy the previously compelling relationship was providing for them.  A positive flip side to this could be if they are a writer or journalist or filmmaker or artist or someone communicating through the media- in this way they could be in a constant process of picking up fascinating information around them and then communicating it out to the world, able to quickly move from relationship to relationship to help get the information they feel compelled to communicate through media.  In any case though, if they aren't taking care of their own true needs but instead maintaining a heavy expression of curiosity focused upon absorbing mental information from others, they are definitely going to end up being exhausted! And then need to pull back from relationships to re-center if they want to gain more of a center- would this also be a movement to the 9th house in some ways?

Just trying to focus more on a pure 3rd house direction- let me know if I'm off with this at all.


love, Gray

Hi Ari and Everyone,

Thanks so much Ari for your feedback...and thanks to everyone for the time and effort you are putting in to your posts as I am learning a great deal from each one of you along with the feedback and comments given.  I find the reminders of where to keep the focus and how to prioritize (and when to ask why) very helpful to hopefully avoid getting lost as we start to add more pieces....

Love and gratitude to all,
Kora

Hi again to All,

I was just reflecting on the the differences regarding the skill of listening as it applies to the Gemini and Libra archetypes and maybe others have further thoughts or insights....It seems to me that while Gemini can appear to be a good listener and is usually a good communicator the motivation is very different from Libra and this is what can make a Gemini listener very misleading to others....Gemini is motivated by the need to expand information/ego via  their relationship to physical phenemonal reality....they would probably be just as happy not relating to others at all if the information could come from a book or some other experience....Gemini is a very social archetype but the reason is for logical information gathering/ expansion....is this correct?  If they have unresolved ego agendas in this information seeking pursuit then their listening skills can be very misleading to others in that others think they are interested in them....however their interest is not actually in personal relationship with others.
  On the other hand for Libra the soul desire/egoic need is to relate to others in a balanced personal way.  Its kind of paradoxical to me that someone with Pluto/Libra if they have unresolved ego agendas might externally appear to others to be far worse at listening and relating than Gemini yet their authentic desire would be to learn to listen in a balanced way and to respond to others according to what they need because they are striving to know themselves through finding balance in relationship.  Just some thoughts for whatever they are worth....correct me if I am off base here.

Kora 

Hello Henrik, once again thank you for your participation here. Everything you wrote is accurate for this signature.

QuoteHi Ari and everyone.

Sn 3rd house/Pluto 7th house:
The Soul is coming from a series of lives in which it has programmed a persona who has gathered and ordered information in order to expand it's knowledge of the mind and by doing so to feel secure. In this life the person is drawing upon a series of lives where the soul has desired to learn how to be in relationships with other in order to be able to listen to itself (PPP) and as a byproduct (by being able to stay true to itself) be able to give to others according to their reality (for good or for worse).

On the way, the persona that has been created has approached relationships in a mental fashion and communication as well as media (I guess even in the "old days" they had some media) has been how it has the person has expanded its data banks. To give an example, it's possible that the person has taken in information from other people on how other they involve themselves in relationship (2nd hand knowledge"¦gathering opinions) and have tried to apply this in their own relationship.

Excellent. This can then manifest in 1 of 2 ways. Either this soul, according to the knowledge they have absorbed, is strongly identified with various ideas about how to be in relationship to the point that they become closed off to more information to the extent that they have become fixed and strongly identified with what they already know. This can then manifest as various confrontations in relationships where it's ideas, which to the soul are logically sound and rational, are confronted with the actual needs/reality of the partner that cannot be explained or understood within the mental framework that has been established.

In another way this could also be a soul that has absorbed knowledge from its environment, in what ever way, and is still open to the expansion of that knowledge. This soul would then exemplify the capacity to listen to various perspectives and to truly consider them. This would make this soul a natural counselor type person that has a great capacity to listen deeply to any perspective/dynamic and understand the bottom line.

This soul may study (3rd house) any environment (3rd house) all as ways to collect more data relative to it's bottom line: relationships. An example of that would be to study the natural world and to consistently ask questions relative to its bottom line. "How do [these] animals meet one another's needs / how do they communicate their needs / how do various species work out differences in needs in their relationships?" etc...

For this soul, any study can get very specific and focused. The limitations in this soul occur as soon as it becomes identified with the established intellectual constructs and projects that or defends that in its relationships.

It's possible that some of its relationships have been where the Sn in the 3rd person feels that the other person have new information that can be of interest to the person (however, not in a Sagittarius way). In any way, because of the trine between the 3rd and 7th house, it has probably been easy for this person to listen and hear other peoples viewpoints in a relationship.

Yes, and the trine also means it would be easy to not listen.

This is not to say that the person has operated with the best of intentions and the possibility of manipulation is of course there. So you could still have the different scenarios that JWG speaks about (Pluto in the 7th house). In essence what you have is a series of lives in which the person has sought a variety of relationships in order to expand on its knowledge through linear train of thought and where it has learned how to listen (thus decreasing its reactive tendencies) to other within relationships.

Within this, ther is a spectrum of possibilities as to how this person has used this ability. The person could have manipulated relationships (by playing back the other persons reality while pushing it's own agenda) or it could have done pretty much the same thing but to be subservient in a relationship"¦and all facets in between.
I know this isn't a full exploration of the spectrum of possibilities of these three achetypes (Pluto, 7th house, and 3rd house), but I just wanted to post something to see if I'm on the right track here.

Yes you definitely are.

Thank you for this possibility.

All the best,
Henrik

With love,
Ari Moshe

Hi Gray,

QuoteAri, thank you for your feedback.  I did realize after writing that I had focused too much on the 9th house and the Pluto polarity point, instead of just focusing on the 3rd house. I'll work on having better focus with that as I am writing- figured I might as well just share what I wrote, though.

Funny about your comment about intuition and the body- after reading that, I realized I have a combination of Sagitarius and Virgo in my own chart so I was probably speaking more from my own experience there.

I really appreciate the focus you are giving to the 3rd house past pattern influence.  Its insightful how you described the pattern of how the 3rd south node/7th pluto would be trying to please a partner more so than expressing self-needs, and how that leads to dependencies in relationship.  It is illuminating for me to think about the difference in meaning from wording it the way you did instead of using the word "repress" like I did- I get what you mean by this, and I think that is a fundamental 3rd House issue.  Especially in combination with a 7th house Pluto, there is the ability to figure out the projected needs and expectations of a partner and then try to fit in with it through the 3rd house patterns, even being able to mutate and change as the partner's expectations change.  This is a fundamental problem as the 3rd house south node/7th house Pluto person is not being truly authentic, so in some way or another they will eventually disappoint the partner most likely since they are not truly being authentic in the way they are going about meeting the needs of their partner, and they will also catalyze their own 7th house Pluto issues- they are not being honest with themselves or honestly stating their own needs, so they will most likely not have their needs met in their relationship, and all sorts of difficult back and forth projections in the relationship can ensue between the partners, with the attraction/repulsion aspect of the 7th house Pluto getting very much involved. 

The "dependencies" aspect here can be a real problem, including that the 3rd house pattern has led them to foster a dependency with their partner, and since they haven't honestly been expressing their own needs or thinking in complete truth, sooner or later its going to come out that the partner can't really be dependent upon them for meeting their expectations and since a dependency has been developed it will make this issue all the more intense.  The flip side being that as has been mentioned, they can also be effective counselors, listeners, and mirrors to others in relationship- however, unless they are working on the 9th house nodal direction and Pluto relationship issues, there can be some of these difficult dynamics developing in the relationship.

I also appreciated your feedback about how curious 3rd house south node people can be, and that with the 7th house Pluto this will lead to a lot of social engagement they ultimately find to be exhausting, which then leads to them needing time alone to recharge.  This also makes me think of how they will probably tend to be attracted to relationships based upon a mental aspect, and if they are staying in a 3rd house pattern of relating this could mean they could remain more reactive in interactions and also be done with the relationship once they move on to being interested in different mental concepts they can find in other relationships.

That's a really good point.

When they meet someone that they feel can cause them some mental growth- this could be about learning more about a subject they are already interested in, or it could be from a sense that a potential relationship carries information that is confrontational and disruptive to their thinking but that there is an attraction for engaging it because of the subsequent growth it will cause mentally-  they could then use a 3rd house ability to figure out how to engage the new relationship and then also continue it by fitting in with the mental frameworks of the conversations.  If they have a tendency to be reacting, it could be even be with someone with whom they tend to have intense arguments that are nonetheless dramatic and compelling to participate in.  If they aren't evolving out of a purely mental attraction like this in relationships, they could then have a tendency to move on to other relationships once they no longer feel the need to learn about the mental information or philosophy the previously compelling relationship was providing for them. 

A positive flip side to this could be if they are a writer or journalist or filmmaker or artist or someone communicating through the media- in this way they could be in a constant process of picking up fascinating information around them and then communicating it out to the world, able to quickly move from relationship to relationship to help get the information they feel compelled to communicate through media.  In any case though, if they aren't taking care of their own true needs but instead maintaining a heavy expression of curiosity focused upon absorbing mental information from others, they are definitely going to end up being exhausted! And then need to pull back from relationships to re-center if they want to gain more of a center- would this also be a movement to the 9th house in some ways?

Not necessarily. Unless there is a desire to evolve, to examine one's inner dynamics, backing off from relationship can be just that. The cycle of getting very immersed, becoming overwhelmed and then backing off can be a part of a reactive and unconscious cycle.

Just trying to focus more on a pure 3rd house direction- let me know if I'm off with this at all.

It was all on to me. Thank you for these further insights.

love, Gray

With love,
Ari Moshe

Hi Kora,

QuoteHi again to All,

I was just reflecting on the the differences regarding the skill of listening as it applies to the Gemini and Libra archetypes and maybe others have further thoughts or insights....It seems to me that while Gemini can appear to be a good listener and is usually a good communicator the motivation is very different from Libra and this is what can make a Gemini listener very misleading to others....

Gemini is motivated by the need to expand information/ego via  their relationship to physical phenemonal reality....they would probably be just as happy not relating to others at all if the information could come from a book or some other experience....Gemini is a very social archetype but the reason is for logical information gathering/ expansion....is this correct?

Yes very well put

If they have unresolved ego agendas in this information seeking pursuit then their listening skills can be very misleading to others in that others think they are interested in them....however their interest is not actually in personal relationship with others.

Yes, very true. As we know this can mean using another as a backboard for processing/organizing/figuring out their own thoughts, communicating with another just to acquire more knowledge that the soul has become fixated on, or talking just to prove a point etc...

  On the other hand for Libra the soul desire/egoic need is to relate to others in a balanced personal way.  Its kind of paradoxical to me that someone with Pluto/Libra if they have unresolved ego agendas might externally appear to others to be far worse at listening and relating than Gemini yet their authentic desire would be to learn to listen in a balanced way and to respond to others according to what they need because they are striving to know themselves through finding balance in relationship.  Just some thoughts for whatever they are worth....correct me if I am off base here.

Thanks for these additional insights Kora.

Kora

With love,
Ari Moshe

Hi all, before we move on to add the north node and polarity point, I will wait another day or two to see if any further interpretations or questions wish to be posted here. Thank you again to everyone for your efforts here.

Tori, Paula and Robbyn let me know if you still intend to post here.

With love
Ari Moshe

Hello Everyone and thank you for keeping the thread going.

Ari I am going to view from the side lines for now, but it would be appreciated if you could succinctly summarize what has been said up to this point regarding the bottom line of Pluto's placement in the 7th house, its Polarity Point and the South Node in the 3rd house. So much has been said, that the 'thead" has fallen out of the needle for me. In gratitude, robin

Hi Robbyin, I wont do that - the content is definitely here. Pretty much everyone's post was accurate, so whatever you read will give you the right direction for understanding this approach. I understand the feeling of the thread falling out of the needle very much.

For now all that was addressed was Pluto in the 7th via the sn in the 3rd house. Some people chose to add the polarity point and the north node, however that is what we are going to look at next.
With love,
Ari Moshe

Hello everyone,
Now we will move on to address specifically the nature of this soul's evolution in the current life.

The north node symbolizes the egocentric structure that allows for evolution to occur. It is who the soul begins to know itself to be as a reflection of it's desire to grow, to evolve. The north node defacto activates the Pluto polarity point.

Just as there are many possible expressions of how this 7th house Pluto has operated through the south node, so to there are many psychological dimensions to explore relative to the north node and the polarity point..

Thank you all again for your participation here! And as always, the value is in the effort.
God bless, with love
Ari Moshe

Hi Ari and all.
A few questions"¦hope I'm not rambling and hope they are clear enough to be answered :).
Is the Sn/Nn a more conscious process (at least in many people) than the Pluto process and can it be said that the Sn/Nn process is our conscious way of acting on the desires of the soul (even though one may not know the Soul's desires)? (Here I'm not referring to the instinctive acting out the desires of the soul (Mars) ).
As far as the nodal axis, is it correct to view the shift from Sn to Nn as a way to express the abilities/qualities that one has earned in the past ( i.e. Sn) in a new way, but that we first have to embrace the Nn qualities wholeheartedly (setting aside the Plut Sq the nodes situation). The reason I ask this is because with Pluto, there is a metamorphosing (progressive or cataclysmic), but should we view the shift from Sn to Nn in the same way.
In other words, is there a difference in the dynamic between going from Sn to Nn vs. going from Pluto to it's PPP?

All the best, and thank you once again for this opportunity,
Henrik

Hi Henrik,

QuoteHi Ari and all.
A few questions"¦hope I'm not rambling and hope they are clear enough to be answered .
Is the Sn/Nn a more conscious process (at least in many people) than the Pluto process and can it be said that the Sn/Nn process is our conscious way of acting on the desires of the soul (even though one may not know the Soul's desires)?

Yes that the sn/nn is conscious. The last statement however does specifically refer to Mars. That is exactly what the function of Mars is about.

The nodes are the filter of the soul through which it's desires become actualized via the specific KIND OF IDENTITY that will allow for the actualization of those desires. A way to tangibly understand this, to think of this outside of astrology for a moment, is that everyone in the world has some sort of self image. That self image, ego, is a reflection of what? The inner underlying desires.

So yes the nodes are predominately conscious, while Pluto is predominately unconscious and yet in the final analysis, they are inseparable. This is because the conscious self image of the soul is a reflection of it's inner desire nature. This is why EVERYONE no matter what stage of evolution they are at, has an ego that is a reflection of their evolutionary stage. And for everyone, that ego is in constant flux to reflect the soul's own evolutionary progress (or lack thereof).

(Here I'm not referring to the instinctive acting out the desires of the soul (Mars) ).

As far as the nodal axis, is it correct to view the shift from Sn to Nn as a way to express the abilities/qualities that one has earned in the past ( i.e. Sn) in a new way, but that we first have to embrace the Nn qualities wholeheartedly (setting aside the Plut Sq the nodes situation). The reason I ask this is because with Pluto, there is a metamorphosing (progressive or cataclysmic), but should we view the shift from Sn to Nn in the same way.

As always I'll answer according to what I understand. We don't "shift" from the sn to the nn - just as much as no identity is absolute and static as in "Yesterday I had a 3rd house ego, now I have a 9th house ego". Evolution can take place in many layers, stages, throughout a single lifetime as a reflection of the inner desire nature of the soul. Everything truly comes back to desire.

There are many layers to uncover as we access more of the north node kind of ego - all as a reflection of the soul working through it's unresolved desires and generating new ones that are more pertinent to it's evolution. It's pretty much ongoing.

However each case is unique. For example, sometimes the south node symbolizes a relive dynamic - ie something that needs to be re-addressed in order to be resolved in the current life. Or it can symbolize special gifts that the soul is here to actualize. Either (or both) of these scenarios are the case when Pluto or any planet is conjunct the sn. In a case like that the soul is required to work through the sn dynamics directly. This is totally inconsequential to the north node; it has to be focused on entirely on its own.

And yes, the nodes can definitely correlate to evolutionary catalysts (progressive or cataclysmic). Since they are the vehicle for the soul, they will trigger the core evolutionary issues.


In other words, is there a difference in the dynamic between going from Sn to Nn vs. going from Pluto to it's PPP?

As I understand it, they are inseperable - except in the various cases where we have Pluto squaring the nodes with Pluto applying to the sn, or when Pluto is conjunct the north node.

All the best, and thank you once again for this opportunity,
Henrik

Thanks for your questions Henrik, please feel free to ask more about this. And I wholeheartedly invite any other experienced ea folk to offer perspective, for this or any other questions.

With love,
Ari Moshe

Hi Everyone,

Here is my attempt to integrate what we have so far:

This soul in the past has desired to know itself through a variety of relationships seeking to find balance and to learn how to listen and give to others what they need (Pluto 7th).  They have done this via a logical mental egoic framework seeking relationship to understand or expand or clarify their understanding of themselves in relationship to physical phenomenol reality (3rd).  Certain relationship imbalances, compulsions, limitations have occurred through egoic insecurity where they have been clinging to what has been familiar and resisting growth in new directions such as co-dependency patterns, unconscious projections on others, patterns of dominance or submission in relationships....In this life the soul intent is for freedom and independence and focus on themselves to expand their ego and learn about their own values (PPP 1st).  This is done through instinctual action towards whatever interests them so that ultimately their relationships can be approached through choice rather than need.  They will have drawn to themselves various challenges or confrontations in order to be conscious of this intent.  This person in the past (3rd) might have been very adept at communication or not and they might or might not have been a good listener....they might have been reactive or defensive with others because of locked in points of view or they might have been deceitful regarding their true agendas.  They may have become very scattered and exhausted from taking in too much information which they have not integrated and perhaps have been depending on their partner to find their own center.  Growth will occur as this person makes conscious choices to find a unifying sense of personal purpose and meaning through exploring various cosmological or philosophical or spiritual systems which give a unifying world view of creation and one's place and purpose within it and teaches the individual to develop their own intuitive sense of truth based on natural law.  (9th nn)  They might find meaning and purpose by taking up a spiritual practice or studying astrology focusing their mental skills on deepening their understanding of a specific belief system that they feel aligned with.  They might travel to other countries studying other systems of belief or take up meditation or spend time in nature in order to experience intuitively their connection with all of life and the underlying unity of different belief systems as they relate to natural law.  As they become more aware of their own truth they are faced with the paths and choices they must make in order to evolve.  The PPP in the 1st house automatically changes as they begin to realize that the efforts to find their truth have to be done on one's own independent of others.  New directions are approached in an Aires/1st/Mars way because one is acting instinctively in unpaved directions learning about one's self and what one values.  This person might choose to be in or out of a relationship but regardless will gain the growth to do this out of choice rather than need and as this person listens to themselves and what they value (PPP) they begin to have the ability to approach relationships in a balanced way so that they can honor themselves as well as listen to and respect the needs of the other person.

Hi Ari and Everyone,

Interesting questions from Henrik and Ari's responses....Ari, the following quote from your response to Henrik brought up a question for me:

]

QuoteHowever each case is unique. For example, sometimes the south node symbolizes a relive dynamic - ie something that needs to be re-addressed in order to be resolved in the current life. Or it can symbolize special gifts that the soul is here to actualize. Either (or both) of these scenarios are the case when Pluto or any planet is conjunct the sn. In a case like that the soul is required to work through the sn dynamics directly. This is totally inconsequential to the north node; it has to be focused on entirely on its own.

My question has to do with looking at a chart where a planet is conjunct the south node (not Pluto) and nothing else is squaring the nodes...I'll give the example of Venus conjunct South Node....are you saying that for evolution to proceed this person does not work through the North Node but evolves through the South Node focus and Venus?  (Venus is not retrograde)  What role does the North Node play in relation to the South Node in a case like this as far as affecting the evolutionary intent?

Thanks!

Kora

Hi Kora,

QuoteKora's question:  What role does the North Node play in relation to the South Node in a case like this as far as affecting the evolutionary intent?

Kora's example:  Venus conjunct South Node

With Venus conjunct the South Node, there can be a sense of being "stuck" in past life dynamics (South Node = the past) that the Soul has been trying to evolve out of, but has been unsuccessful.

The Soul is stuck at that point - Venus conj South Node - and therefore needs to focus on that area, to work and re-work that area, until NEW choices are made that can then move the Soul into a new direction - a forward momentum (not staying stuck in the past) - so that the lessons are understood, and evolution is effected.  This will certainly take the form of re-living key karmic relationships.

Once new choices are progressively made, the Soul therefore gradually becomes unstuck in that area - easing out of it - integrating the new lessons - and culminating the past. In order to culminate something, there has to be a re-living of it, so that the actual culmination CAN take place.

It can take conscious effort to move into a new direction because of the pull towards the familiarity of the past, where security exists.  In your example, the resistance could mean reverting to distorted relationship dynamics (inequality, submission/domination, etc).  Obviously, these old patterns are not going to work.  That's why the focus needs to be on that Venus/South Node area - to move away from the past through REDEFINING the past, not skipping over it - not rushing forward toward the attraction of the North Node.

I'm not sure if this following paragraph is correct. It seems logical, but will have to wait for Rad to clarify: The evolution into the future occurs THROUGH the Venus/South Node lessons (equality, balance, etc), with the North Node then naturally evolving THROUGH the South Node's development.  In turn the whole karmic axis (Pluto, PPP, NN) evolve through the South Node too.

Kora and Ari, hope this is helpful.  Please add or subtract as necessary.

Thanks,

Linda

Hi Kora, Linda

Thanks for your contribution Linda.

Quote
The evolution into the future occurs THROUGH the Venus/South Node lessons (equality, balance, etc), with the North Node then naturally evolving THROUGH the South Node's development.  In turn the whole karmic axis (Pluto, PPP, NN) evolve through the South Node too.

As I understand it that is ONLY the case when Pluto squares the nodes and applies to the south node. In that case the Pluto polarity point, the north node and its ruler is integrated through the sn and its ruler. (see chapter 1 of the Pluto book - when Pluto squares the nodes: Example with the sn in taurus in the 6th, Pluto in Leo in the 9th).

Regarding the generic example Kora offered, I understand that the Venus sn symbolizes a specific karmic requirement that needs to be addressed in the current life (either unresolved karmic dynamics around relationship that need to be relived and resolved, and/or a special gift that is meant to be offered). The north node still symbolizes the evolving egocentric structure that, along with it's planetary ruler, activates the Pluto polarity point is activated.

Only in cases when there are no aspects to the north node is the soul required to FIRST work out the sn (and the planets on the sn) before the north node and the polarity point can be developed. Jeff Green has taught that in such a case, the unresolved karma of the sn and the planets on the sn will only be released by the time of the second Saturn return. And even that is a matter of what kind of choices the soul makes - ie it's not promised. The preliminary work has to be done first.

For example lets put the sn and Venus in the 7th house, north node in the 1st house. The first house kind of ego may be in process of being developed - thus evolution (Pluto polarity point) would in fact be activated to some extent. AND at the same time, that Venus sn symbolizes a karmic requirement that needs to be addressed as a part of the current life evolutionary requirement. However it's not a "sn first, nn second" kind of dynamic - unless of course there are no aspects to the nn, as stated above.

In the end, the sn/planet on the sn requirements are there to be worked out, so in the final analysis evolution will of course be limited if that is yet unresolved since the soul's capacity to develop the nn will be limited by the weight of the past. This will carry over in some way to the next life.

I feel it is most appropriate at this point, before any further responses or questions are posted, to ask if Rad can clarify this in whatever ways are necessary. I don't want to pursue further dialog in case that will create confusion for anyone.
With love,
Ari Moshe

Hi Ari,

Do you think I should just delete my post.  I don't want to cause confusion for anyone.  I understand you are trying to stay with the basics at this stage.

Thanks,

Linda

I think it's best to let Rad clarify what needs clarifying since we have both made two different points. I don't want to assume that my correction to your post is defacto correct.

Hi Ari and Linda and all,

Thanks so much to both of you for your responses to my question and I look forward to further clarification as I am learning a lot from this.  I am looking at a real chart with sn in 3rd conjunct Venus (nn 9th) so any additional insight on this would really help.  I don't want to get too far off the thread with my questions but I found it confusing to know how someone would resolve the sn/venus issue without going to the polarity of the nn....when the layout of the chart indicates that the resolution has to come through the south node where do you go for new clues on how to do it differently?   In the case of venus/sn would you find the new possibilities for making change through looking at the relationship polarities because venus has to do with relationships?  I hope this question makes sense and doesn't add further confusion.  Thanks!!!

Kora

Hi Ari and all.

This post is not in reference to the issue of Pluto Sq nodal axis or a planet Sq nodal axis or planet conjuct Sn/Nn"¦just wanted to point this out since I realize that this question was the last one raised here. Instead this post is in reference to my last question regarding the: if we should "normally" use the shift from Sn to Nn in TANDEM with the shift from Pluto to PPP. I realize that in the end (the outcome so to speak) there will be a blend of the Nn/PPP"¦however here I'm trying to find out if we should be concerned with if one sometimes leads the other (i.e. nodal axis shift before PPP).

Ari: Thank you so much for your response. This repeat post is because I think I wasn't communicating clearly what I wanted to ask in my last posting. Hopefully this post is somewhat clearer.

I read that even the Pluto to PPP can be progressive due to either mutable signs/houses and/or evolutionary stage (i.e. cooperation with Soul). I also read that  where our moon/ego is, we are in a continuous state of becoming"¦this may not always be the case with our Pluto right? So depending on the chart/person we are analyzing should we take into account things like mutable signs/houses/planetary rulers as well as evolutionary state and other conditioning, if we are to theorize how the person might make the shift from Sn to Nn as well as the process of shift to PPP.

For the purposes of our practice thread, maybe my question is irrelevant since we are trying to get the basics, but I still would like to find out if in real life we should be looking at the chart to see if it's likely that both processes (Sn to Nn and Pluto toPPP) happen in tandem or if we should look at things like mutabe factors vs. fixed in the chart we are analyzing.

To illustrate my question (in a extremely simplified manner). Say that the nodal axis is 3rd to 9th and say that the signs of the nodes are mutable and also that the planetary rulers are in mutable houses and in mutable signs. I'm not assuming any evolutionary level or any early parental conditioning etc.even though that would play in in real life.
Now set this in contrast to a Pluto in a fixed house in a fixed sign.
First question, can this actually happen? I guess it could?
Second question: Does it stand to reason that the shift (progressively) fron Sn to Nn would come easier and before the shift from Pluto to PPP. In other words, the shift within the nodal axis would be progressive, whereas the shift from Pluto to PPP would most likely be cataclysmic and perhaps not in tandem?

Does my question make sense? 

Hope I'm not confusing everyone (especially my self:) ).

All the best,
Henrik

Hi Kora,

QuoteHi Ari and Linda and all,

Thanks so much to both of you for your responses to my question and I look forward to further clarification as I am learning a lot from this.  I am looking at a real chart with sn in 3rd conjunct Venus (nn 9th) so any additional insight on this would really help.  I don't want to get too far off the thread with my questions but I found it confusing to know how someone would resolve the sn/venus issue without going to the polarity of the nn....when the layout of the chart indicates that the resolution has to come through the south node where do you go for new clues on how to do it differently?   In the case of venus/sn would you find the new possibilities for making change through looking at the relationship polarities because venus has to do with relationships?  I hope this question makes sense and doesn't add further confusion.  Thanks!!!

Kora

I created a new thread specifically for this topic, if you wish you can repost your question there.
With love,
Ari Moshe

Hi Henrik,

QuoteHi Ari and all.

This post is not in reference to the issue of Pluto Sq nodal axis or a planet Sq nodal axis or planet conjuct Sn/Nn"¦just wanted to point this out since I realize that this question was the last one raised here.

Instead this post is in reference to my last question regarding the: if we should "normally" use the shift from Sn to Nn in TANDEM with the shift from Pluto to PPP. I realize that in the end (the outcome so to speak) there will be a blend of the Nn/PPP"¦however here I'm trying to find out if we should be concerned with if one sometimes leads the other (i.e. nodal axis shift before PPP).

Again, it's automatic. You can't separate the nodes with Pluto and it's polarity point bc the ego (nodes) are always a reflection of the soul's desires. The ego is never separate from the reason for why the ego exists in the first place.

Ari: Thank you so much for your response. This repeat post is because I think I wasn't communicating clearly what I wanted to ask in my last posting. Hopefully this post is somewhat clearer.

I read that even the Pluto to PPP can be progressive due to either mutable signs/houses and/or evolutionary stage (i.e. cooperation with Soul). I also read that  where our moon/ego is, we are in a continuous state of becoming"¦this may not always be the case with our Pluto right?

Right about the Moon. And regarding mutable signs/houses there can still be great resistance and cataclysmic evolution as a result of that resistance.

So depending on the chart/person we are analyzing should we take into account things like mutable signs/houses/planetary rulers as well as evolutionary state and other conditioning, if we are to theorize how the person might make the shift from Sn to Nn as well as the process of shift to PPP.

Where did you read about the mutable signs/houses as symbolizing progressive evolution? I understand that mutable is transitional, however it does not mean that the mutable archetype is different than any other house/sign in the sense that the same dynamics of cooperation or resistance equally apply relative to choice. Pluto is Pluto is Pluto.

And yes, we take into account the ea stage, basic social/family conditioning of the soul, the nature of Pluto (it's sign house aspects) the sn, its ruler and aspects, the nn its ruler and aspects and the Pluto polarity point. There are various indications as to what kind of evolutionary path is intended for the soul depending on all those factors taken together, such as: the aspects the nodal rulers make with either node, the phasal relationship and aspects between the nodal rulers to each other, all of the above relative to Pluto, the phasal relationship between Mars and Pluto etc...


For the purposes of our practice thread, maybe my question is irrelevant since we are trying to get the basics, but I still would like to find out if in real life we should be looking at the chart to see if it's likely that both processes (Sn to Nn and Pluto toPPP) happen in tandem or if we should look at things like mutabe factors vs. fixed in the chart we are analyzing.

As above. There are exceptions to the rule where the polarity point is integrated through developing the south node as in the case when Pluto squares the node and is applying to the sn. The difference between mutable and fixed are just a matter of expressing a different archetypal dynamic/process for the soul - they do not change the rule for how evolution happens.

To illustrate my question (in a extremely simplified manner). Say that the nodal axis is 3rd to 9th and say that the signs of the nodes are mutable and also that the planetary rulers are in mutable houses and in mutable signs. I'm not assuming any evolutionary level or any early parental conditioning etc.even though that would play in in real life.

Now set this in contrast to a Pluto in a fixed house in a fixed sign.
First question, can this actually happen? I guess it could?

Yes

Second question: Does it stand to reason that the shift (progressively) fron Sn to Nn would come easier and before the shift from Pluto to PPP. In other words, the shift within the nodal axis would be progressive, whereas the shift from Pluto to PPP would most likely be cataclysmic and perhaps not in tandem?

No

Does my question make sense? 

I believe I understand it. If you do wish to ask further I'd suggest moving this to a new thread.

Hope I'm not confusing everyone (especially my self:) ).

All the best,
Henrik

With love,
Ari Moshe

Hi Kora, Linda, and Ari,

Sorry I missed this request for clarification. Ari has stated the correct way to understand this. In essence with Venus on the S.Node the fact of the Soul repeating all those Venus dynamics are true yet the N.Node is that which giving the opportunity of the Soul to make new choices relative to those existing and repeating dynamics. Thus, the make those correct choices that frees the Soul from the past is symbolized by the house, sign of the N.Node, and the location of it's planetary ruler by house, sign, and the aspects to it. This of course does not happen automatically. It requires conscious, deliberate, choice making.

God Bless, Rad

Hi Ari.

I think I get it now. Sorry for the repeat question. You got it the first time, but I didn't :)
I guess what threw me off is the passage in JWG first Pluto bokk, in the Pluto in the 2nd house/Taurus where he writes that "The degree of resistance and limited vision is relative to the mitigating factors determined by the signature of the main karmic/evolutionary dynamic in each birth chart." Then he uses an example where he writes that if Sn is in Gemini, there would be less resistance versus a Sn in Capricorn (everything else equal). I guess that's what tokk me on this train of thought.

Unless you think my last two posts and your answer to them carries any value in this thread, feel free to remove my two last posts before this..and this one too if you wish. This thread should correspond to it's title and I fear my two last posts will only sidetrack from this.

Also, in the 2nd Pluto book JWG states that we should view the next evolutionary step as the PPP, "actualized in tandem with the North Node of the Moon". Just saw this right now!

All the best,
Henrik

Hi Ari
Hi All,
I am re sending as it got lost  :-[

Pluto 7 house /PP 1 house
SN 3 house / PP NN 9 house


This individuals desire in the past has been to be in as many relationships as he could so that he would be/feel part of the cultural / social / and religious beliefs. He would feel safe and secure by adopting the beliefs, opinions and values of others.
When in a relationship he will have adopted the partners likes and dislikes as his own, he would cling to remain in a relationship for fear of not being able to be alone without a partner.
Imbalances have been created by the selfish need to be with someone and  have their values and ideas to be in familiar situations so as to feel secure and safe. As a consequence confrontations with others will happen because of his limited views on life.These confrontations have forced him to question why these things are happening to him, forcing him to look inside for answers.

The evolutionary intent will be to instinctually actualize his special destiny by breaking away from other peoples ideas, situations and values that he believes without questioning. He will go and discover for himself about life and its truths.
He will voice his opinion, state it, and not feel scared or insecure by the reactions his individual ideas may have on others. These reactions will help him have a relationship with himself by looking within to find the answers and try to understand life through a more, cosmological / metaphysical / philosophical way (NN 9 house / PP SN 3 house). 
As he learns to balance his fear of being trapped versus his freedom within a relationship, slowly he will  be able to commit more and realize that he can still be free to do what he wants that can help him discover more about himself.

He will no longer use his covert / overt manipulative ways, half listening to their partners needs (SN 3 house / gemini ) to keep his partner, friends and others around him, as he, by embracing the 1 house PP of Pluto 7 house he will discover foremost what he wants and who he is in context to his reality and his surroundings. Also by really listening to others needs ( Pluto 7 house / Libra ) he will know when /what to give and when to say no.

Fears and insecurities that have entrapped him and have held back his evolutionary intent, Pluto 7 house / PP 1 House will be replaced by his desire to break away from his relationships and his narrow vision of life,  SN 3 house. His knowledge now  seems limited and scattered to discover for himself by embracing the PP 9 house / SN 3 house the truth about life in a cosmological, metaphysical or philosophical way.
As he embraces the 9 house NN / PP SN 3house he will come to understand that he knew nothing. 
The more he embraces the SN 3 house PP NN 9 house  by studying, having teachers, debating ideas with others he will realize how very small  he is and it will need great effort and time to understand through study the cosmological, metaphysical and philosophical views of the world.
He would also freely come to listen and not quiet down his inner voice as his intuition would be allowed to flow (9 House ) and guide him.
He himself, would no longer accept to be in a relationship in which he is not free to follow his desire, because of past insecurity  issues, he will learn to balance his desire for freedom, his desire to know himself separate from another, and yet be fully committed to the partners needs, likes and dislikes. 
By focusing on a few topics, digging deeper in his quest for answers and knowledge in a cosmological, metaphysical and philosophical way and by embracing the knowledge and natural truth, he will no longer feel threatened or have the compulsion to give his opinionated ideas when confronted with others different opinions, values, beliefs or religions.
Blessings
ryta

Hi Rad, Ari and Everyone,

Thank you so much Rad for your clarification which really helps.  Thank you Ari for opening up a new thread to pursue this further and I will take further questions on this topic there.

Blessings,
Kora

Hi all, just want to let you to know I'll be gone till Sunday night/Monday morning.
Blessed equinox everyone!
With love,
Ari Moshe

Hello,

Pluto Polarity Point - 1st House
North Node - 9th House

This soul will affect its evolution with respect to 7th/3rd house issues via a 9th house ego and 1st house PPP.  This soul has been working on learning how to be an equal in relationships via a 3rd house ego which collected a lot of information, presumably from a lot of different people.  This soul has potentially been too dependent on information from outside sources, thus taking on other's ideas/opinions as one's own, or has been too reactive - potentially rejecting other's opinions before actually considering them in order to maintain a false sense of security based on a limiting opinion of their own.

In either case the PPP of the 1st house and the 9th house North Node symbolize the need for this soul to move to a place of more independence, freedom, exploration and instinctive, intuitive understanding of the truth within themselves.  By letting go of the need for validation of one's ideas by another person, this soul can align with what is actually true for him/herself.  This individuality will help move this soul from the need to be liked or the need to be needed.
 
With respect to 3rd/9th dynamics, this person must actively choose a worldview based on natural law that they can filter phenomenal reality through.(?)  By finding their own truth this person can then move away from dependence on another and embrace the 1st house PPP.  Individuality for this soul will come through the 9th house ego - wisdom and knowledge based on natural law. 

I was going to write that once this person is rooted in their intuitive truth, they will then not be threatened by other's beliefs and can see that everything is relative.  However, with the involvement of the 1st house is it possible that this person will be continuously discovering their truths and may not reach a point of solidification around what they actually believe at this point in the soul's evolution?  Perhaps now is more of a time for experimentation to see what fits and what doesn't?  This soul has accumulated a vast amount of information in the last life(lives) is now being urged to sort through it and come to its own conclusions.

Thanks again for this opportunity - I'm learning a lot.

Peace,
Emily

Hi Ari and everyone,

Hopefully I'm not out of line with how I'm presenting the Nn and PPP. I have chosen to try to summarize my understanding of both Pluto/PPP and Moon's nodal axis in general, as well as the background as to why this person has been born with a Pluto 7th house and Sn in the 3rd. Once again, this is to see that I'm on the right track.

General understanding of Pluto and nodal axis.
Pluto, in whatever house or sign, correlates with the desire (often unconscious) of the soul to evolve (evolve towards the source or towards evil). However, Pluto also correlates to unconscious security. Thus, to evolve means to move beyond what constitutes the familiar and therein lays the paradox and this may be why Pluto in any sign and house is often associated with degrees of resistance and compulsive behavior. The desires emanating from the soul will be transmitted to and acted out via our Mars function on an instinctual basis. In each life, the Soul chooses a time and place to be born that reflect its (relatively near) past, present and future ego-centric identities (Moon and thus its nodal axis).

So the placement of the Moon is both a condensed self-image or ego reflecting the current underlying desire nature of our Soul and the nodal axis of the Moon then represents how we have consciously acted (or will act if we choose to evolve) in order to actualize those underlying desires that most of us are not be aware of.

Ari: Is this an ok way to reason?

Pluto in the 7th house; PPP in the 1st.
Sn in the 3rd house; Nn in the 9th.
Pluto in 7th house has lived a series of lifetimes where the soul has desired to detach from the subjective reality of self and instead begins to create an objective awareness of how it (self) relates to others. So in this cardinal house a new cycle has begun, one that expands our awareness of self in relation to others, then society, and the universe/Source. In the 7th house we do this by initiating relationships to people in order to understand others according to their view of reality. In order to be able to understand others, we have to be able to listen as an equal. The 7th house is a cardinal archetype and Yang whereas Pluto is a fixed archetype and Yin. Thus we find behavior associated with "hearing" (7th house) and evaluation (Pluto) that is described by cycles of external socialization (who are you, what are your values) followed by internal contemplation (who am I, what do I value). So, essentially, we are learning to relate our own individuality to that of others. However, because we're dealing with Pluto here, the theme will be an almost compulsive need to be in relationships in order to validate one self.

As stated earlier, with a Sn in the 3rd, on the way, the persona that has been created has approached relationships in a mental fashion and observation as well as communication has been how the person has expanded its data banks as well as subsequently ordering this new information or possibly rejecting any new info that goes against current ordering of the phenomenal world. Since the 3rd house is naturally a Yang house (energy going outwards), the thirst for more information is always there. But because of the need to feel secure, this does not mean that all new information will be accepted, it just means that the curiosity is there to find out more information/data. Because this has been an ongoing process for many lives, the Sn in the 3rd person has probably at certain junctures been forced to alter its views and the problem has been that it has done so without having a bottom line or holistic understanding in which to measure what information is relevant and what information of views are unnecessary for the individual.

The person has been curious to gather and order new information (3rd house) in order to feel secure about its environment. Pluto in the 7th house indicates that he/she has initiated a variety of relationships in the past and present to find out how other people think (Sn in 3rd/Pluto in 7th) and what they value (Pluto in 7th) ( I guess Why they value what they do would be Pluto in the 8th). In order to find out, it has had to learn how to listen objectively and grasp the concept of relativity. On this journey, the person has been exposed to a lot of opinions, some of which it has bought into and some which it has rejected. While in relationships, the person might have been manipulative or manipulated, or both interchangeably. There is also the possibility that the person has truly been able to hear and validate the other person's reality (a potential counselor) but has lacked the understanding of when to give and when not to, thus not been able to learn how to balance its own needs with that of the other person it has been in relationship with.

The underlying theme is that with Pluto in the 7th house there has been formed some sort of limitation in where relationships are entered into in order to validate one's existence and with the Sn in the 3rd  the person has either not had any baseline in which to order all the information it has been exposed to (either rejecting this information or not being able to fit it), or it has had a baseline, but this system has been limited in terms of what new information could be "fitted" with new information and the person is now feeling that some of the new information it has been exposed to do seem plausible, but it can't fit it into its existing intellectual construct/ordering system.

At the same time, with Pluto in the 7th house, having learned to listen, it has been exposed to a lot of different "opinions" from other people while in relationships, and may have come to the realization that a person's view of the world is often relative to some underlying set of assumptions (beliefs). At some point the person will start to ask what are my values and why do I think the way I do"¦what's at the bottom of all this (Pluto)?
Ari: I guess this response will only happen in the individuated or spirited stage?
At the very least, the person will start to wonder "what should my beliefs be?". If I'm not the same as those people I interact with, how am I different?

The Nn in the 9th house will ignite the question, which belief system feels right to me (Nn in the 9th/PPP in the 1st)? The person might become receptive to (intuit) a belief system such as religion, philosophy or perhaps a system based on observation and correlation (Nn in the 9th). The choice of "truth" or belief system will correspond to their evolutionary stage. The movement from Pluto in the 7th house to PPP in the 1st will mean evolution, but if the person/Soul is in consensus stage, they will not all of a sudden going to jump to the 1st stage spiritual just because they shift towards the PPP, thereby start answering their own questions. In other words, by aligning themselves to a base-line (i.e. belief system) that correspond with their evolutionary development, the PPP will mean that they will be able to dig inside (Pluto, fixed, receptive) and come up with answers themselves (PPP in the 1st) corresponding to that belief system.
The person might try on one that seem to attract the person on an intuitive or gut level (PPP in the 1st house/Nn in the 9th) and as a byproduct, any new information as well as existing information that fits this belief system will now be integrated according to the belief system.
As this process unfolds, there will be a quieting of the mind of this person (a base-line) and at the same time, this person will not always have to look to someone else when making life decisions. I suppose that for most people, this process will also help them realize that other people need the same "rights to make up their own life decisions" and that this will in turn attract likeminded people (at least down the line). Because of the shift from Pluto in the 7th to PPP in the 1st, this person will realize that it needs time alone, even when in a relationship"¦and that it fosters a person who will help to support the need for independence for the other person within relationships.

Thank you for this opportunity!

All the best,
Henrik

Hi Rita, Emily, kora and Henrik - I will begin to respond to your posts about the NN and the Pluto polarity tomorrow. In the mean time everyone else is still welcome to post their interpretation.
With love,
Ari Moshe

Hi Kora, everything you wrote is accurate for these signatures.

QuoteHi Everyone,

Here is my attempt to integrate what we have so far:

This soul in the past has desired to know itself through a variety of relationships seeking to find balance and to learn how to listen and give to others what they need (Pluto 7th).  They have done this via a logical mental egoic framework seeking relationship to understand or expand or clarify their understanding of themselves in relationship to physical phenomenol reality (3rd).  Certain relationship imbalances, compulsions, limitations have occurred through egoic insecurity where they have been clinging to what has been familiar and resisting growth in new directions such as co-dependency patterns, unconscious projections on others, patterns of dominance or submission in relationships....In this life the soul intent is for freedom and independence and focus on themselves to expand their ego and learn about their own values (PPP 1st).  This is done through instinctual action towards whatever interests them so that ultimately their relationships can be approached through choice rather than need.  They will have drawn to themselves various challenges or confrontations in order to be conscious of this intent.  

This person in the past (3rd) might have been very adept at communication or not and they might or might not have been a good listener....they might have been reactive or defensive with others because of locked in points of view or they might have been deceitful regarding their true agendas.  They may have become very scattered and exhausted from taking in too much information which they have not integrated and perhaps have been depending on their partner to find their own center.  Growth will occur as this person makes conscious choices to find a unifying sense of personal purpose and meaning through exploring various cosmological or philosophical or spiritual systems which give a unifying world view of creation and one's place and purpose within it and teaches the individual to develop their own intuitive sense of truth based on natural law.  (9th nn)

They might find meaning and purpose by taking up a spiritual practice or studying astrology focusing their mental skills on deepening their understanding of a specific belief system that they feel aligned with.  They might travel to other countries studying other systems of belief or take up meditation or spend time in nature in order to experience intuitively their connection with all of life and the underlying unity of different belief systems as they relate to natural law.  

All this is very true, and I feel called to clarify that the point of the 9th house, in the end, is not to sample various experiences. Rather, it is direct experience, inner knowledge and understanding.

As they become more aware of their own truth they are faced with the paths and choices they must make in order to evolve.  The PPP in the 1st house automatically changes as they begin to realize that the efforts to find their truth have to be done on one's own independent of others.  New directions are approached in an Aires/1st/Mars way because one is acting instinctively in unpaved directions learning about one's self and what one values.  This person might choose to be in or out of a relationship but regardless will gain the growth to do this out of choice rather than need and as this person listens to themselves and what they value (PPP) they begin to have the ability to approach relationships in a balanced way so that they can honor themselves as well as listen to and respect the needs of the other person.

With love,
Ari Moshe

Hi Rita, (or do you generally go by "Ryta"?)
With the exception of a couple corrections, everything you wrote is accurate within the possibilities of these signatures.

QuoteHi Ari
Hi All,
I am re sending as it got lost  

Pluto 7 house /PP 1 house
SN 3 house / PP NN 9 house

This individuals desire in the past has been to be in as many relationships as he could so that he would be/feel part of the cultural / social / and religious beliefs. He would feel safe and secure by adopting the beliefs, opinions and values of others.

When in a relationship he will have adopted the partners likes and dislikes as his own, he would cling to remain in a relationship for fear of not being able to be alone without a partner.
Imbalances have been created by the selfish need to be with someone and  have their values and ideas to be in familiar situations so as to feel secure and safe. As a consequence confrontations with others will happen because of his limited views on life.These confrontations have forced him to question why these things are happening to him, forcing him to look inside for answers.

The evolutionary intent will be to instinctually actualize his special destiny by breaking away from other peoples ideas, situations and values that he believes without questioning. He will go and discover for himself about life and its truths.

That last line is true, however he may not be breaking away from "beliefs", as the third house does not necessarily correlate with beliefs, other than the logical conclusions one may make based on the data one has - which then becomes beliefs. Rather this soul is breaking away from the pattern of overly relying on the logical mind and thus within that, perhaps the pattern of having been overly susceptible to too many points of views, information and perspectives, from other people.

Also, there is nothing in this signature that implies this soul has had a pattern of not questioning it's beliefs. In fact, the third house is the essence of questioning. The soul may just adopt and try to "fit in" and thus may seem agreeable bc of its strong chameleon capacities. The 9th house nn is not innately about asking questions, it is more about cultivating a direct inner knowing of the truth, and thus developing the intuitive faculties.

He will voice his opinion, state it, and not feel scared or insecure by the reactions his individual ideas may have on others. These reactions will help him have a relationship with himself by looking within to find the answers and try to understand life through a more, cosmological / metaphysical / philosophical way (NN 9 house / PP SN 3 house).  

As he learns to balance his fear of being trapped versus his freedom within a relationship, slowly he will  be able to commit more and realize that he can still be free to do what he wants that can help him discover more about himself.

He will no longer use his covert / overt manipulative ways, half listening to their partners needs (SN 3 house / gemini ) to keep his partner, friends and others around him, as he, by embracing the 1 house PP of Pluto 7 house he will discover foremost what he wants and who he is in context to his reality and his surroundings. Also by really listening to others needs ( Pluto 7 house / Libra ) he will know when /what to give and when to say no.

That was all beautifully said

Fears and insecurities that have entrapped him and have held back his evolutionary intent, Pluto 7 house / PP 1 House will be replaced by his desire to break away from his relationships and his narrow vision of life,  SN 3 house. His knowledge now  seems limited and scattered to discover for himself by embracing the PP 9 house / SN 3 house the truth about life in a cosmological, metaphysical or philosophical way.

As he embraces the 9 house NN / PP SN 3house he will come to understand that he knew nothing.  
The more he embraces the SN 3 house PP NN 9 house

The sn 3 house does not need to be included in what you wrote above.

by studying, having teachers, debating ideas with others he will realize how very small  he is and it will need great effort and time to understand through study the cosmological, metaphysical and philosophical views of the world.

He would also freely come to listen and not quiet down his inner voice as his intuition would be allowed to flow (9 House ) and guide him.

He himself, would no longer accept to be in a relationship in which he is not free to follow his desire, because of past insecurity  issues, he will learn to balance his desire for freedom, his desire to know himself separate from another, and yet be fully committed to the partners needs, likes and dislikes.
By focusing on a few topics, digging deeper in his quest for answers and knowledge in a cosmological, metaphysical and philosophical way and by embracing the knowledge and natural truth, he will no longer feel threatened or have the compulsion to give his opinionated ideas when confronted with others different opinions, values, beliefs or religions.

Yes that is possible, and also the other possibility is this soul may not feel the need to make everything an intellectual argument or need to always consider what other people would think / how the soul may be heard and received by others. But rather this soul may learn to simply speak it's own truth with no hidden agenda.

Blessings
ryta

With love,
Ari Moshe

Hi Emily,
Everything you have written is accurate for these signatures.

QuoteHello,

Pluto Polarity Point - 1st House
North Node - 9th House

This soul will affect its evolution with respect to 7th/3rd house issues via a 9th house ego and 1st house PPP.  This soul has been working on learning how to be an equal in relationships via a 3rd house ego which collected a lot of information, presumably from a lot of different people.  This soul has potentially been too dependent on information from outside sources, thus taking on other's ideas/opinions as one's own, or has been too reactive - potentially rejecting other's opinions before actually considering them in order to maintain a false sense of security based on a limiting opinion of their own.

In either case the PPP of the 1st house and the 9th house North Node symbolize the need for this soul to move to a place of more independence, freedom, exploration and instinctive, intuitive understanding of the truth within themselves.  By letting go of the need for validation of one's ideas by another person, this soul can align with what is actually true for him/herself.  This individuality will help move this soul from the need to be liked or the need to be needed.

Excellent
 
With respect to 3rd/9th dynamics, this person must actively choose a worldview based on natural law that they can filter phenomenal reality through.(?)

Yes this is true. Developing a world view is a natural dynamic and unfolding process for all souls. This of course can manifest as a religion or philosophy (belief systems based on some degree of intuition/some sort of direct experience) or it can manifest as gnosis (personal direct knowing of the truth - which is different than a "belief". NOTE: I've never heard JWG use that word "gnosis" in this or any context, however I do feel it is a fitting word here).

By finding their own truth this person can then move away from dependence on another and embrace the 1st house PPP.  Individuality for this soul will come through the 9th house ego - wisdom and knowledge based on natural law.  

I was going to write that once this person is rooted in their intuitive truth, they will then not be threatened by other's beliefs and can see that everything is relative.  

The soul may actually already know that - since the 3rd house and 7th house, air archetypes, correlate to relativity.

However, with the involvement of the 1st house is it possible that this person will be continuously discovering their truths and may not reach a point of solidification around what they actually believe at this point in the soul's evolution?

The 9th house implies both the truth that a soul can come to directly know for itself; as knowledge that becomes awakened from within is irrefutable. And yet, no one has the WHOLE truth, so the 9th house also implies an ever expanding process of discovering more of the truth. And so this soul will be activating the polarity point on a perpetual basis as that 9th house nn ever develops.  

Perhaps now is more of a time for experimentation to see what fits and what doesn't?  This soul has accumulated a vast amount of information in the last life(lives) is now being urged to sort through it and come to its own conclusions.

Thanks again for this opportunity - I'm learning a lot.

Peace,
Emily

With love,
Ari Moshe

Hi Henrik, Everything you have said is accurate for these signatures. And thank you for all the elements your brought into your interpretation. Including consideration of evolutionary state and your efforts to understand the core ea symbolism more clearly.

QuoteHi Ari and everyone,

Hopefully I'm not out of line with how I'm presenting the Nn and PPP. I have chosen to try to summarize my understanding of both Pluto/PPP and Moon's nodal axis in general, as well as the background as to why this person has been born with a Pluto 7th house and Sn in the 3rd. Once again, this is to see that I'm on the right track.

General understanding of Pluto and nodal axis.
Pluto, in whatever house or sign, correlates with the desire (often unconscious) of the soul to evolve (evolve towards the source or towards evil).

To clarify, pursuing separating desires does not mean a soul is evolving towards evil. That only becomes a reality if the soul builds the right kind of "track record" in that direction.

However, Pluto also correlates to unconscious security. Thus, to evolve means to move beyond what constitutes the familiar and therein lays the paradox and this may be why Pluto in any sign and house is often associated with degrees of resistance and compulsive behavior.

The desires emanating from the soul will be transmitted to and acted out via our Mars function on an instinctual basis.

All right on

In each life, the Soul chooses a time and place to be born that reflect its (relatively near) past, present and future ego-centric identities (Moon and thus its nodal axis).

I feel this is true, however I'm called to restate this so that it's clear to everyone. The soul choses the total circumstantial reality of it's life as a context for it's current life evolution. It's current life evolutionary purpose is, of course, determined by whatever latent desires are being brought forth from the past into the current life.

The Moon is the current life ego that will allow for evolution to be integrated in the current life. The sn reflects the egocentric structures that have existed in the past. And thus the current life ego (Moon) is conditioned, filtered by the past (it's sn) which shifts to perpetually include the orientation of north node as the soul makes the choice to evolve.

So the placement of the Moon is both a condensed self-image or ego reflecting the current underlying desire nature of our Soul

Not the Moon by itself. It is the ego that reflects the underlying desire nature of the soul. The nature of that ego will be signified by the Moon via the nodes which includes nodal aspects and the planetary rulers. The Moon is specifically relevant to how the entire evolutionary journey (Pluto via nodal axis) will be emotionally integrated, on a moment to moment basis, in the current life. The Moon has no evolutionary context w/out it's nodes.

and the nodal axis of the Moon then represents how we have consciously acted (or will act if we choose to evolve) in order to actualize those underlying desires that most of us are not be aware of.

"Consciously acted" is more of a Mars thing as you mentioned above. Other than that, you are correct in that the nodes are the self image (conscious) that reflect the underlying desire nature of the soul (predominately unconscious).

Ari: Is this an ok way to reason?

Here's a thread that discusses the meaning of the Moon in great length. I recommend focusing on What Rad quoted directly from JWG in reply # 8 and his explanation in reply #11.

https://forum.schoolofevolutionaryastrology.com/index.php/topic,161.0.html (https://forum.schoolofevolutionaryastrology.com/index.php/topic,161.0.html)

And here is what Deva wrote within that thread:
The natal moon in the birth chart symbolizes the current self-image of the Soul, and the conscious emotional security patterns of the Soul (Pluto is the unconscious emotional security patterns of the Soul. The South Node of the Moon reflects the prior egocentric structure of the Soul, and the North node symbolizes the evolving egocentric structure of the Soul. the transition from the past to the future, then, is integarted on an consciousess basis by the natal moon. The moon represents our inner home, or how we are living within ourselves, on a day to day, minute to minute basis. It also symbolizes our ability to nurture ourselves in the ways that we need.

Pluto in the 7th house; PPP in the 1st.
Sn in the 3rd house; Nn in the 9th.
Pluto in 7th house has lived a series of lifetimes where the soul has desired to detach from the subjective reality of self and instead begins to create an objective awareness of how it (self) relates to others. So in this cardinal house a new cycle has begun, one that expands our awareness of self in relation to others, then society, and the universe/Source. In the 7th house we do this by initiating relationships to people in order to understand others according to their view of reality. In order to be able to understand others, we have to be able to listen as an equal. The 7th house is a cardinal archetype and Yang whereas Pluto is a fixed archetype and Yin. Thus we find behavior associated with "hearing" (7th house) and evaluation (Pluto) that is described by cycles of external socialization (who are you, what are your values) followed by internal contemplation (who am I, what do I value). So, essentially, we are learning to relate our own individuality to that of others. However, because we're dealing with Pluto here, the theme will be an almost compulsive need to be in relationships in order to validate one self.

Excellent

As stated earlier, with a Sn in the 3rd, on the way, the persona that has been created has approached relationships in a mental fashion and observation as well as communication has been how the person has expanded its data banks as well as subsequently ordering this new information or possibly rejecting any new info that goes against current ordering of the phenomenal world. Since the 3rd house is naturally a Yang house (energy going outwards), the thirst for more information is always there. But because of the need to feel secure, this does not mean that all new information will be accepted, it just means that the curiosity is there to find out more information/data. Because this has been an ongoing process for many lives, the Sn in the 3rd person has probably at certain junctures been forced to alter its views and the problem has been that it has done so without having a bottom line or holistic understanding in which to measure what information is relevant and what information of views are unnecessary for the individual.

The person has been curious to gather and order new information (3rd house) in order to feel secure about its environment. Pluto in the 7th house indicates that he/she has initiated a variety of relationships in the past and present to find out how other people think (Sn in 3rd/Pluto in 7th) and what they value (Pluto in 7th) ( I guess Why they value what they do would be Pluto in the 8th).

I'd say this would relate strongly to a Pluto in the 7th. "Why" is inherent to any Pluto placement, and in this case we are linking the "why" to other people.

In order to find out, it has had to learn how to listen objectively and grasp the concept of relativity. On this journey, the person has been exposed to a lot of opinions, some of which it has bought into and some which it has rejected. While in relationships, the person might have been manipulative or manipulated, or both interchangeably. There is also the possibility that the person has truly been able to hear and validate the other person's reality (a potential counselor) but has lacked the understanding of when to give and when not to, thus not been able to learn how to balance its own needs with that of the other person it has been in relationship with.

The underlying theme is that with Pluto in the 7th house there has been formed some sort of limitation in where relationships are entered into in order to validate one's existence and with the Sn in the 3rd  the person has either not had any baseline in which to order all the information it has been exposed to (either rejecting this information or not being able to fit it), or it has had a baseline, but this system has been limited in terms of what new information could be "fitted" with new information and the person is now feeling that some of the new information it has been exposed to do seem plausible, but it can't fit it into its existing intellectual construct/ordering system.

At the same time, with Pluto in the 7th house, having learned to listen, it has been exposed to a lot of different "opinions" from other people while in relationships, and may have come to the realization that a person's view of the world is often relative to some underlying set of assumptions (beliefs). At some point the person will start to ask what are my values and why do I think the way I do"¦what's at the bottom of all this (Pluto)?

Ari: I guess this response will only happen in the individuated or spirited stage?

By the way you are writing about that kind of inner inquiry, I would agree.

At the very least, the person will start to wonder "what should my beliefs be?". If I'm not the same as those people I interact with, how am I different?

The Nn in the 9th house will ignite the question, which belief system feels right to me (Nn in the 9th/PPP in the 1st)? The person might become receptive to (intuit) a belief system such as religion, philosophy or perhaps a system based on observation and correlation (Nn in the 9th).

Rad, does observation and correlation correlate to the 9th house? I wonder if that is mostly an air archetype thing: science...

The choice of "truth" or belief system will correspond to their evolutionary stage. The movement from Pluto in the 7th house to PPP in the 1st will mean evolution, but if the person/Soul is in consensus stage, they will not all of a sudden going to jump to the 1st stage spiritual just because they shift towards the PPP, thereby start answering their own questions. In other words, by aligning themselves to a base-line (i.e. belief system) that correspond with their evolutionary development, the PPP will mean that they will be able to dig inside (Pluto, fixed, receptive) and come up with answers themselves (PPP in the 1st) corresponding to that belief system.

Really good insight Henrik

The person might try on one that seem to attract the person on an intuitive or gut level (PPP in the 1st house/Nn in the 9th) and as a byproduct, any new information as well as existing information that fits this belief system will now be integrated according to the belief system.
As this process unfolds, there will be a quieting of the mind of this person (a base-line) and at the same time, this person will not always have to look to someone else when making life decisions. I suppose that for most people, this process will also help them realize that other people need the same "rights to make up their own life decisions" and that this will in turn attract likeminded people (at least down the line). Because of the shift from Pluto in the 7th to PPP in the 1st, this person will realize that it needs time alone, even when in a relationship"¦and that it fosters a person who will help to support the need for independence for the other person within relationships.

Thank you for this opportunity!

All the best,
Henrik

With love,
Ari Moshe

Hi Kora, Rita, Emily and Henrik

First I really want to commend and thank each one of you for your efforts. I am learning so much in this process. Please note that over the past several hours I have made several edits to most of my responses to you. This is a reflection of my own process as a student of this work.

Now we will allow time for further questions, and for anyone else who wishes to post, to do so.

Hi Rita, all

I was thinking about something I wrote in response to your post Rita and I want to make a little revision. I wrote:

QuoteThe 9th house nn is not innately about asking questions, it is more about cultivating a direct inner knowing of the truth, and thus developing the intuitive faculties.

I feel its important to clarify that questions of course can be asked within the 9th house/sag archetype. For example: questions that relate to a higher understand of reality or questions that pertain to one's own or others beliefs or assumptions....

As so, relative to a 3rd house sn, as the soul develops the 9th house identity, it may find itself questioning the assumptions it has in fact made according to the constructs it has created in it's mind about reality, and as you referred to in your post, those of other people as well.

With love,
Ari Moshe

Hi Ari and Everyone,

Thank you  for all of your responses to everyone!  I learn so much from reading everyone's perspectives and from the responses given.

I also have been wondering the last couple of days how one makes the leap (conscious choice) to connect with or cultivate one's intuitive truth or direct knowing....For example if I were in a counseling situation what would I actually tell someone to do?  It seemed to me that an individual would have to make the conscious choice(left brain logical) to turn inward and that would involve asking  self reflective questions.  Also wouldn't one look for processes that would get them out of the left brain?... Sag/3rd house is not particularly connected to the emotional body is it?  On the other hand it seems that one has to connect with the body and emotions and to what has "heart" or feeling for an individual to know what one values.....how do you teach a scientist to do that?  One might have to make deliberate choices to do practices such as journaling or moving the body or dancing or taking a walk in nature or basically any practice that a person might be drawn to (intuitive choice) that would take them out of the left brain and in to the body, feelings, emotions, nature.....or maybe one would actually have to do disciplines that they did not particularly want to do like certains kinds of breathing or meditation practice?  They would arrive at the decision to do something like this through some kind of logical process as to why it was necessary.  Is the level of being out of one's comfort zone a clue that one is on the right track?   Anything more that you or anyone can say here about how one makes the conscious choice leap from 3rd house to 9th house learning would be helpful....Thanks!!

Kora

Hi Ari,

"Rad, does observation and correlation correlate to the 9th house? I wonder if that is mostly an air archetype thing: science..."

***********

The observation part is of course Uranus, Aquarius, and the 11th house whereas the correlation part is Sagittarius, the 9th House, and Jupiter.

God Bless, Rad

Hello again group,

I have been so busy I haven't had time yet to read all of the recent posts, but I am very much looking forward to it.  Thank you to everyone for your contributions here.  Here is my quickly put together perspective on the 9th House North Node of the Moon, I may go back and edit some later:


7th House Pluto, 3rd House South Node of the Moon

Previously manifesting a 3rd House ego identity in pursuit of 7th House relationship desires, this soul now makes choices to transform toward a 9th House ego identity which helps catalyze growth toward the 1st House Pluto polarity point at the same time.  Instead of seeking relational security through mental organization of the phenomenal world, including taking on the mental beliefs of others they come into relational contact with, this soul on the path toward the 1st house Pluto polarity point is now forming a stronger sense of Self and ability to act on their own desires instead of acting in a way based more upon their relationships.  Meaning, instead of acting and thinking in a way to gain mental security and fit in with a certain partner or group of people, they are able to act and make choices along a path that resonates with their true inner Self.  Taking on the issues of their 9th House North Node of the Moon is integral to this growth of development.

This soul is now ready to give up its seemingly never-ending pursuit of mental theories and information, not in the sense of losing curiosity or of no longer being mentally active; instead, they are ready to gain greater clarity through focusing their powerful mental abilities into more of an intuitive sense of how to act that is coming from their true core being.  It is also possible that they have found some sort of metaphysical lineage of teaching that resonates with their personal experience and knowledge gained from experience, through which they can more simply focus their mental abilities instead of moving from system to system in mental pursuit of knowledge without choosing one system to focus through.  In the first Pluto book JWG quotes a Taoist saying of "within the ten thousand things" in reference to a 3rd House Pluto- to me, this applies to a 3rd House South Node who wants to learn as much about the world around them as possible, mentally spinning and learning about multitudes of concepts; when this person addresses their 9th House North Node issues they will gain the ability to see how all of these diverse mental ideas fit together into more of a cohesive system of knowledge they can more intuitively respond to life through.

This does not mean that just because a 7th House Pluto with a 3rd House South Node of the Moon starts reading about and researching a metaphysical system or even starts practicing through it, that they have de facto made the transition to facing their 9th House North Node issues.  If they are learning about and copying the metaphysical theories of others, simply regurgitating information, and this information and learning isn't directly tied into their own spiritual or soul growth development that they have actually lived and experienced (I guess spiritual development may only apply to some?), the curiosity and learning of this metaphysical system could be more about mimicry and more about gaining the 7th house relational security of 3rd House South Node mental organization of phenomenal reality.  In contrast, if they find a metaphysical system that resonates with the true inner soul growth they have experienced in their life, and that by following this system they are continuing to develop growth and a capacity to hone in on more of their true intuitive sense of how to act versus acting out of compulsive security desires in relation to other people- this would be more like experiencing the true 9th House North Node development.

One question I have about a 7th House Pluto with a 9th House North Node of the Moon would be their relationship with teachers, and even with guru figures.  It seems to me that a soul experiencing the development of their 9th House North Node and 1st House Pluto polarity point could experience a powerful teacher and even a guru in the sense of catalyzing their own growth and development.  Although the teacher or guru may be especially influential and charismatic, which could in one sense trigger some of their 7th House Pluto issues of giving over their power to others in relationship, their relationship with this powerful teacher would have the effect more of catalyzing their own true inner core development and would help connect them with more of an ability to intuitively respond to the world from their inner Self.  In contrast, if a soul was more in the 3rd House phase of the South Node, I wonder if there could be issues with losing personal power to a teacher.  It seems to me that simply gravitating toward a teacher of a metaphysical system or a guru type figure would also not de facto mean they are fully addressing the 9th house North Node development; if they are gravitating toward a teacher figure in order to fit in with a group, or gain a sense of Pluto 7th house relational security through becoming part of a group following a certain teacher or guru, this would be more like the 3rd House South Node pattern. In any case, if a soul addressing their 9th North Node issues comes into contact with a guru or teacher connected with a wisdom lineage they are being drawn into, the teacher in this way would in the end simply be helping them discover their relationship with themselves, and that the process of learning the wisdom lineage would not be about losing connection with their own intuition and sense of self: it would be part of the process of them discovering how to respond intuitively to others from their true sense of Self.

No matter if the soul is in consensus, individuated, or spiritual phases of development, by addressing the 9th House North Node issues they will gain the ability to act more closely with their own intuition and also develop the capacity to respond to others in their relationships, and where others are coming from in relationship to them, and move away from a previous tendency to be reactive in conversation and relationships.  Instead of using relationships to purely increase their own mental knowledge or to react with their own mental perspective, they will gain a greater ability to listen to where the other person is coming from and respond more appropriately, as well as more intuitively to the true needs of the relationship.

peace and love,
Gray

Hi Kora,

QuoteHi Ari and Everyone,

Thank you for all of your responses to everyone!  I learn so much from reading everyone's perspectives and from the responses given.

I also have been wondering the last couple of days how one makes the leap (conscious choice) to connect with or cultivate one's intuitive truth or direct knowing....For example if I were in a counseling situation what would I actually tell someone to do?  It seemed to me that an individual would have to make the conscious choice(left brain logical) to turn inward and that would involve asking self reflective questions.

It doesn't require a left brain process to make the choice to evolve towards the north node in the 9th house. Rather, this is a matter, as it is for all souls, of desire. Exhausting desires and generating new one's that are relevant to one's evolution is an emotional experience of realizing from within that "the old" isn't working and ultimately, making new choices.

It is wired within each soul the inherent capacity, on a moment to moment basis, to make a next choice that is supportive of it's evolution or not.

Also wouldn't one look for processes that would get them out of the left brain?...

Sure, since in this case we are dealing with a 9th house nn, such suggestions would make sense.
What would be recommended in this case may be one of many things depending on the ea state, the signs of the nodes, and the rulers of the nodes etc.

In the end the advice given would be to help the soul to cultivate trust their own inner knowing of the truth. If this is a spiritual state soul then it would be about helping guide their spiritual practices, their relationship to the Truth towards a greater, self empowered focus. This may necessitate the need to weed out arbitrary ideas/teachings/books that do not serve the soul's evolution; and instead to focus on a singular path that resonates with that soul's nature.

Getting out in nature is probably ALWAYS a good piece of advice for anything Sag. There are certain forms of spirituality the essence of which is nature itself. Such as the "teacher planets" found all over the world, and just communion with nature itself.


Sag/3rd house is not particularly connected to the emotional body is it? 

Not the archetype by itself, however if the sn is there then the third house would be related to the soul's emotional body.

On the other hand it seems that one has to connect with the body and emotions and to what has "heart" or feeling for an individual to know what one values.....how do you teach a scientist to do that? 

It isn't about one's values - that's a specifically Venus/Taurus/second house thing. If those archetypes were involved, then we would be addressing those as well. An clear example of this would be if there was a planet in the second house forming an yod (2 inconjuncts: 150 degrees and 210 degrees) to the 7th house Pluto and the nn in the 9th house.

In general, regarding how to teach a scientist to explore reality beyond the linear mind: everything starts with desire. Desire enables the emotional body to integrate more information that otherwise could not have been integrated prior to that desire. When the soul is desiring to develop greater insight, it will begin to seek that and will eventually make new choices. If there is openness to learn, learning will happen.


One might have to make deliberate choices to do practices such as journaling or moving the body or dancing or taking a walk in nature or basically any practice that a person might be drawn to (intuitive choice) that would take them out of the left brain and in to the body, feelings, emotions, nature.....or maybe one would actually have to do disciplines that they did not particularly want to do like certains kinds of breathing or meditation practice?

Possibly - it depends on that individual context revealed by the evolutionary state and the rest of the chart what kind of focus is appropriate for this soul.

They would arrive at the decision to do something like this through some kind of logical process as to why it was necessary.

Nope, as above. Rather, they will intuitively understand, to some extent, why to make such a decision. That intuition will deepen over time. And desire is what leads the way here.

Is the level of being out of one's comfort zone a clue that one is on the right track?

My sense is that being out of one's comfort zone is an inherent part of evolution for all souls; it's what has to happen. The choices that are being made in that zone of discomfort is what would imply evolution or not.

Anything more that you or anyone can say here about how one makes the conscious choice leap from 3rd house to 9th house learning would be helpful....Thanks!!

Kora, I truly appreciate your questions. Thank you for looking so deeply into this. Please feel free to ask more if you need to. Rad and others, I invite further perspective if you feel it would be helpful here.
With love,
Ari Moshe

Hi Gray, thanks for your post. I'll have the chance to reply tomorrow eve.

Hi Ari and everyone,

Thank you soo much for your comments Ari. i will let it sink in. If I have any further questions I wil ask them as they come into mind :)

One thing I wanted to ask though...even though observation is Aquarius/Uranus/11th house, can the choosing of astrology as a system based upon observation and correlation stil be an act of intiuting that this system to represent one form of "truth"? In other words, the act of choosing Astrology, can that be considered an act corresponding to the 9th house?

Also, thank you to everyone else for their efforts as it helps me enrich my own understanding.

All the best,
Henrik

Hi Henrik,

QuoteOne thing I wanted to ask though...even though observation is Aquarius/Uranus/11th house, can the choosing of astrology as a system based upon observation and correlation still be an act of intuiting that this system to represent one form of "truth"? In other words, the act of choosing Astrology, can that be considered an act corresponding to the 9th house?

I would say yes. For example I have a 9th house nn and various times over the years when a planet has transited over my nn I have had realizations and visions regarding my own study/participation/enrollment etc with EA. I even decided to become a student of EA when the Sun transited over my nn in the 9th.

With love,
am

Wow Ari....thank you for your responses to my questions.  Everything that you said made sense and helped me understand the dynamics much more clearly of how these archetypes work together.  I am amazed at how much I am learning through this process and am very grateful!

Kora

Hi Gray,

Quote9th House North Node movement

7th House Pluto, 3rd House South Node of the Moon

Previously manifesting a 3rd House ego identity in pursuit of 7th House relationship desires, this soul now makes choices to transform toward a 9th House ego identity which helps catalyze growth toward the 1st House Pluto polarity point at the same time.  

"Transformation" is specific to the Uranus/Aquarius/11th house archetype

Instead of seeking relational security through mental organization of the phenomenal world, including taking on the mental beliefs of others they come into relational contact with, this soul on the path toward the 1st house Pluto polarity point is now forming a stronger sense of Self and ability to act on their own desires instead of acting in a way based more upon their relationships.  Meaning, instead of acting and thinking in a way to gain mental security and fit in with a certain partner or group of people, they are able to act and make choices along a path that resonates with their true inner Self.  Taking on the issues of their 9th House North Node of the Moon is integral to this growth of development.

This soul is now ready to give up its seemingly never-ending pursuit of mental theories and information, not in the sense of losing curiosity or of no longer being mentally active; instead, they are ready to gain greater clarity through focusing their powerful mental abilities into more of an intuitive sense of how to act that is coming from their true core being.  It is also possible that they have found some sort of metaphysical lineage of teaching that resonates with their personal experience and knowledge gained from experience, through which they can more simply focus their mental abilities instead of moving from system to system in mental pursuit of knowledge without choosing one system to focus through.  

In the first Pluto book JWG quotes a Taoist saying of "within the ten thousand things" in reference to a 3rd House Pluto- to me, this applies to a 3rd House South Node who wants to learn as much about the world around them as possible, mentally spinning and learning about multitudes of concepts; when this person addresses their 9th House North Node issues they will gain the ability to see how all of these diverse mental ideas fit together into more of a cohesive system of knowledge they can more intuitively respond to life through.

This does not mean that just because a 7th House Pluto with a 3rd House South Node of the Moon starts reading about and researching a metaphysical system or even starts practicing through it, that they have de facto made the transition to facing their 9th House North Node issues.  If they are learning about and copying the metaphysical theories of others, simply regurgitating information, and this information and learning isn't directly tied into their own spiritual or soul growth development that they have actually lived and experienced (I guess spiritual development may only apply to some?), the curiosity and learning of this metaphysical system could be more about mimicry and more about gaining the 7th house relational security of 3rd House South Node mental organization of phenomenal reality.  In contrast, if they find a metaphysical system that resonates with the true inner soul growth they have experienced in their life, and that by following this system they are continuing to develop growth and a capacity to hone in on more of their true intuitive sense of how to act versus acting out of compulsive security desires in relation to other people- this would be more like experiencing the true 9th House North Node development.

One question I have about a 7th House Pluto with a 9th House North Node of the Moon would be their relationship with teachers, and even with guru figures.  It seems to me that a soul experiencing the development of their 9th House North Node and 1st House Pluto polarity point could experience a powerful teacher and even a guru in the sense of catalyzing their own growth and development.  

Yes absolutely

Although the teacher or guru may be especially influential and charismatic, which could in one sense trigger some of their 7th House Pluto issues of giving over their power to others in relationship, their relationship with this powerful teacher would have the effect more of catalyzing their own true inner core development and would help connect them with more of an ability to intuitively respond to the world from their inner Self.  In contrast, if a soul was more in the 3rd House phase of the South Node, I wonder if there could be issues with losing personal power to a teacher.  It seems to me that simply gravitating toward a teacher of a metaphysical system or a guru type figure would also not de facto mean they are fully addressing the 9th house North Node development; if they are gravitating toward a teacher figure in order to fit in with a group, or gain a sense of Pluto 7th house relational security through becoming part of a group following a certain teacher or guru, this would be more like the 3rd House South Node pattern.

I feel you have accurately stated it. To add to what you have said: The power dynamic that could be created would depend, first and foremost on the latent desires within the soul that are being expressed via its relationship with that teacher type person. Interacting with a teacher, or learning from one does not defacto imply integrating the north node. This soul could easily be manifesting all kinds of 7th house relationship extremes through a third house orientation with this teacher. One example of that would be agreeing with everything the teacher says on the basis of wanting to be liked or approved of. Another example would be to try to prove some sort of point - logically - by offering a counter point or some sort of reactive/left brain response to everything that is said by the teacher.

This soul may also think it has all the answers already. Both Sag and Gemini can be certain of it's "rightness". In this case, with a third house sn, the belief that one already "knows" is linked to actual facts and mental constructs that have already been put together in the mind. This soul may feel disempowered by a teacher who has a 9th house kind of knowing and is not responding to the soul's third house mental arguments. This may leave the soul insecure as it is not getting the social feedback and validation it is used to getting.

The relationship with a teacher, guru, or any system of wisdom and synthesis can be a total third house orientation if there is not the desire to grow. It can just be another experience, more data, knowledge, perspectives gained - but no wisdom - like googling and talking about meditation versus actually trying it.

Something that I don't think has been spoken to yet is that in the end, this soul is naturally wired to become a teacher. And so teaching may also be an evolutionary development for this soul. In this case, the intention would be to teach from inner knowledge, not just outside information. In so doing the soul will be cultivating the wisdom to understand the forest from the trees; to see the larger picture, and thus will know more and more how to respond appropriately to people's needs - not from the unconscious need to be liked/approved of etc, but from self certainty and inner trust of self (Pluto polarity).


In any case, if a soul addressing their 9th North Node issues comes into contact with a guru or teacher connected with a wisdom lineage they are being drawn into, the teacher in this way would in the end simply be helping them discover their relationship with themselves, and that the process of learning the wisdom lineage would not be about losing connection with their own intuition and sense of self: it would be part of the process of them discovering how to respond intuitively to others from their true sense of Self.

First, the use of the world "lineage" would implicate Saturn, Capricorn, 10th house in some way. 9th house does not innately imply a "wisdom lineage".

What you said is very true. Check this out:
Earlier today, this quote literally just fell off a wall in the room I am currently staying in. It was a quote from T. Krishnamacharya written on the backside of a picture of Pantanjali:
"Teach what is inside you, not as it applies to you but as it applies to the other."

I am amazed at how beautifully this quote expresses this signature. This resonates very well with what you wrote: "...to respond intuitively to others from their true sense of Self." Only by knowing its own self can this soul understand the actual reality of others. This is an example of how Pluto can express as an ability to help other people get to their own "bottom line".


No matter if the soul is in consensus, individuated, or spiritual phases of development, by addressing the 9th House North Node issues they will gain the ability to act more closely with their own intuition and also develop the capacity to respond to others in their relationships, and where others are coming from in relationship to them, and move away from a previous tendency to be reactive in conversation and relationships.  Instead of using relationships to purely increase their own mental knowledge or to react with their own mental perspective, they will gain a greater ability to listen to where the other person is coming from and respond more appropriately, as well as more intuitively to the true needs of the relationship.

peace and love,
Gray

All very well said. Thank you for your post Gray,
With love,
Ari Moshe

Ari,

Thank you so much for your feedback, and for sharing your synchronicity:

QuoteEarlier today, this quote literally just fell off a wall in the room I am currently staying in. It was a quote from T. Krishnamacharya written on the backside of a picture of Pantanjali:
"Teach what is inside you, not as it applies to you but as it applies to the other."

I love moments such as this.  I agree this is perfect for this signature. I also agree with the strong possibility of someone with this signature becoming a teacher. In fact, I believe it is one of the most auspicious routes possible for someone with this signature to face their 9th house north node issues while also addressing the pluto polarity point.  Having a 7th House Pluto can be a strong source to draw from as a teacher, especially given the added signature of a 3rd house South Node of the Moon, 9th house North Node of the Moon. I know from my own experience of becoming a teacher and continuing to teach today, that teaching  a class of people from diverse backgrounds and motivations and interests is a great opportunity to learn how to better respond intuitively to the unique needs of each other we interact with, as well as practice the 9th house/Sagitarius way of synthesizing our own ultimate understanding into a concept that can get through to each student.

peace and love,
Gray

Hi all, we'll wait a bit before moving on to allow for review. If anyone else still wishes to post, please let me know.

Hi all, we are now ready to move on!

What I have decided to do is bring our last chart analysis to a completion and to move on to a new one.

In this new chart we are once again placing Pluto in the 7th house, however this time the nodes will be reversed: with the south node now in the 9th house and the north node in the 3rd house.

This time we will interpret all of these signatures together. What I recommend is to focus first on the sn Pluto relationship, then to address the intended evolution via the nn Pluto polarity point relationship.

We will still keep it generic with no specific evolutionary state or cultural background.
So for those who are interested in participating here let me know. And feel free to ask any questions.
God bless, with love
Ari Moshe

Hi Ari,

I am definitely interested in continuing on.  Thanks for doing this!

God Bless,
Kora

Hi Ari and all.

Definitely interested. Thanks for the opportunity...

All the best,
Henrik

Hi Ari,

I would like to participate.  I have a question about a chart I am working with, should I ask it here or create an entirely different thread--the question has to do with nodes and nodal rulers.

Thanks,
Wendy

Definitely interested! Thanks am.
~ stephen

Hi Ari,
I would also like to continue, it does help to understand the EA paradigm participating and sharing the little knowledge i have, very interested.
blessings
rita

I'm interested in participating too.

Thanks Ari!

Dear Ari,

Sorry i didn't respond to you wondering if i was going to post a comment previously, i only just noticed your question now, i am just out of another 10 day workshop, i am trying to follow the thread when possible and i'm surprised how difficult i find it to combine even two archetypes.

I have more time now and am going to make an effort to participate. I am interested to explore the "energy of duality..central to Gemini" Understanding Karmic Complexes as part of the interpretation.

Thanks Ari. With love. Tory

Kora, Henrik, Wendy, Stephen, Rita, Emily, Tory and whoever else wishes to join - feel free to get started. And thank you all again for your participation here.

Tory mentioned a great book "Understanding Karmic Complexes" By Patricia Walsh. To me that book is an excellent ea resource for grasping the tangible nature of these archetypes from an ea perspective.

The paradigm we are working with again is Pluto in the 7th
SN in the 9th
NN in the 3rd
With love,
am

Hi Ari and Everyone,

Here is my attempt for our new assignment with Pluto 7th, SNode 9th and NNode in the 3rd:

This individual's past soul desire has been to objectively know himself or herself in relationship with another through seeking a variety of relationship with different people covering extreme differences.  They have done this from a soul desire to find balance and equality in relationships and to learn how to listen to others and to give to others according to the needs of the other.  Due to egoic insecurity imbalances have occurred with several possible scenarios of how this could play out.  Examples include patterns of codependency, taking on dominant or submissive roles in relationships or depending on another in some way for self identity.  The intent for the current life (PPP 1st house) is to be free and independent and to act instinctively towards new learning that fulfills their own needs and through these actions to expand their sense of self to meet their own needs without being in relationship to another.  With the South Node in the 9th house this person has approached relationships in the past from an egoic personality structure desiring to find their truth and to expand their intuitive knowing of truth as well as developing their personal unifying belief system regarding life and the meaning of life and their place and purpose within it.  They may have been a teacher or philosopher or guru type and perhaps attracted another who wanted to learn from them or they might have relied on such others to teach them or inspire them in the direction of their own intuitive development.  Currently they would be functioning from imbalances that have occurred from a variety of possible manifestations.  Their current egoic security would be based on past beliefs and what was true for them in the past and presently they might draw in people who have a differing set of strong beliefs who confront or challenge them.  If threatened they may become very dogmatic trying to convert others or submissive to a stronger partner who tries to convert them and thus become separated from their own truth.  They might be deceptive or actually lie about their current truth.  They would likely feel quite alienated from others due to past experiences and be poor communicators finding it difficult to convey what they know through their intuition and consequent frustrations over their inability to communicate cause them to become withdrawn leading to further problems in relationships.  They might also have difficulty making commitments and  deception can occur related to this creating further challenges and confrontations.

Growth for this person can occur through embracing the NNode (3rd house) when this individual makes a deliberate effort to become a student searching out new information and experiences that can expand his or her current belief structures and/or tolerance regarding the beliefs of others.  This would involve learning new communication skills and exposing themselves to a variety of individuals with differing beliefs from an attitude of being willing to listen to them so he or she can understand where they are coming from, being willing to learn about their differences as well as their similarities.  By learning to listen this individual can become more tolerant and can begin to expand his or her own beliefs and their understanding of how many different paths to the truth can lead to an underlying resonant unity.   As this is done the PPP (1st house) automatically becomes activated.  The person instinctively acts independently in new directions following own desires for new learning and experience and through these actions expands his or her self identity.  The ego is strengthened and this person can fulfill his or her own needs instead of relying on another.  The person is more skilled if he or she chooses to be in a relationship to communicate in a better way, to listen to another and to be tolerant of a partner's point of view.  When there is the freedom and the space for each to pursue their own individual needs and an attitude of respect and tolerance for another there is also a greater liklihood that the person will bond (feel less alienated) and want to be more committed.   

Dear Ari, Dear All,

Pluto (unconscious emotional security patterns of the soul) in the 7th (Cardinal/Yang/Air) "the energy of Venus is yang and turned outwards, so we seek more than just what we can provide for ourselves-we look to 'the other' also for fulfillment" from Patricia Walsh's marvelous Understanding Karmic Complexes thanks to Patricia for her Keywords, so helpful! Pluto in 7th is on one hand learning through compare and contrast in relationships with others (indeed through all interactions outside of self) and self, having this deeply unconscious need for relationships as a platform for the souls learning, the degree to which it is unconscious and needy creating possible extremes between (swinging back and forth polarity of the 1st/7th house) co-dependancy and the 1st house PP (Cardinal/Yang/Fire) of ultimately having to fall back on self (triggering 1st house anxiety of separation) finding the courage to go within and accept that all we are searching for, ultimately is not out there manifest in a person or a thing, but to be found within.

SN (prior egocentric structure of the soul) in the 9th (Mutable/Yang/Fire) suggests prior purposeful search for knowledge/wisdom/meaning possibly constructively in relationship to others as teacher/shaman of natural law or otherwise where the knowledge/belief systems became/become an end in itself, teacher becomes a preacher, and all that goes with: dogmatic faith and ideals being forced onto others, knowledge as a means of power to control and manipulate others? (Pluto in the 7th?).

I have a question: The South Node of the Moon represents prior egocentric structure of the soul, on an emotional level?  

I need to pause and reflect and will pick up where i left off in my next post.
Light and Love
Tory

Hi All,

Pluto in the 7th House
South Node in the 9th House

So in this case the 7th house Pluto soul has used an egocentric structure of the 9th house to actualize its desires of learning to be in relationships as an equal.  The 9th house ego structure is all about the need to ..."understand themselves in a cosmological, metaphysical, philosophical, or religious context." (Pluto I JWG)  So this desire would be operating in relationships that this soul would have had in the past.  This soul has been focused on knowing the truth and created a diversity of circumstances and relationships in order to explore the nature of existence.

Assuming the soul did not yet know how to be an equal in relationships there is a chance this soul has tried to convert others to its belief system and been intolerant of others beliefs.  The person may also have had trouble communicating his/her beliefs to others due to the difficulty of translating intuitive knowing into spoken word or into a coherent teaching - which would have created a feeling of frustration and of not being able to connect with other people.

This person would have been/is highly intuitive especially with regard to other people (? 7th house) and may have used this to manipulate others to get what they wanted.

This person may also have been able to truly listen to another and combined with their keen intuition could have been a very good friend/counselor (or is this more 3rd?)

This signature indicates a very wise soul that could have been a teacher or could have continuously found itself in teacher/student relationships - in which the partners are not meeting as equals but are involved in power struggles where one knows more (or thinks it knows more) than the other.  This person could have been highly dogmatic and intolerant of others views trying to convince and convert others to their beliefs.  Or could have found itself very easily overtaken by the beliefs of other more powerful people.

Although relationships may have caused the person to feel alienated, relationships with others have been opening the soul up to their own intuitive knowing of the truth of natural law.  Whether they found themselves around others of like-mind or not at all the intention has been the same.

The degree of emotional security linked to their chosen belief system will determine the strength of confrontation they have experienced with others.

Also, this soul may not have engaged in relationship very much at all as it felt alienated from others and was focused on its search for the truth and its own special destiny.  In order to learn to engage in relationships in an equal way - if the soul has been avoiding them - at some point it will need to find balance between being in relationships and maintaining its own freedom.

Peace,
Emily

Hi -

I forgot the North Node in the 3rd:

The north node in the 3rd symbolizes that in order for this soul to enter into relationships as an equal it must learn that truth is relative and that it does not have a unique hold on the truth.  This will need to happen by the soul opening up to other people, philosophies, religions etc and realizing that there are many paths to the truth.  In this way the soul can be more relaxed in its interactions with others, not needing to convince and convert everyone to its way of thinking.  And the soul can then share the wisdom it has with anyone because it is not dependent on a specific belief system but is rooted in natural law and intuitive knowing.

-Emily

Hi Ari, Hi Everybody;

Pluto in the 7th house SN in the 9th house, NN in the 3rd house:

In the past this individual´s  Soul has been involved in as many relationships as possible.
Through these relationships he learned how to listen to the needs of others so to be able to give them what they need according to the their needs, wants and desires. These relationships have also been teaching him balance and equality within the relationships he has had with others because these individuals have not learned how to do this.
There is the need to be in many relationships so that he can have many different points of views,  and this will help him to know how to relate to others and to objectively understand the significance of human nature. There is a danger that by having many relationships he will have  too many different points of views, mixing him up / confusing him. This in turn can become a compulsive behavior in which he is overly dependent on the opinions, advice or knowledge of others. Through these other peoples points of views,opinions and dictates, that he takes for his own, only adding to his inability to decide for himself how he should run his life. This in turn will only contribute to his feeling of having lost his own identity.
The possibility for extreme relationships in which codependency on the partner or by his covert behavior making the partner totally dependent on him.  These extremes the Soul created / creates, are based on him believing that his own needs are the same needs of his partner and he cannot see that he is a mere extension of his partner, this is caused by his fear of loosing his self identity and the familiar emotional security he has / knows. 
SN 9th:
In the past this individual´s Soul has been understanding himself and life in a cosmological, metaphysical, philosophical or religious context. He has been trying to understand his connection to the Universe and the world that he lives in.
His Soul / he feels, that he has a special destiny to fulfill, that he needs all the freedom to pursue the discovery of the truth for his existence. A loner due to prior lives of traveling in quest for the truth which is imprint in his subconscious, making his alienation to the society that he is born into very real, especially if the society that he is born in is  based on specific religious or philosophical systems that are limiting by their ideologies.

With Pluto in the 7th house, SN 9 house, the philosophical or intellectual confrontations that occurred with others when he expressed his intuitive knowledge, and  when confronted for his ideas, he could not really explain how he knew what he knew or why he had certainties for his beliefs.
This made it very difficult for him to have a balanced relationship in which he did not feel alienated and emotionally insecure for having different ideas, beliefs and values.    Although a loner it is possible he succeeded to keep a more equal relationship with people who could understand and listen to his intuitive knowledge and openness to Universal truth.
Sooner or later his Souls desire (PPP 1 house ) will push him to take hold of his life, he will decide for himself what directions or decisions are best for him, without the dependency previously needed of others, opinions, ideas or consent. At the same time he will have learned not to control, interfere or block his partners need to initiate new things.
SN PP 3 house, the evolutionary intent for this life is that he understands that his version of reality, laws, principles and morality are relative, he will  come to understand this through the many philosophical, metaphysical and cosmological confrontations he will have with others in which he will have learned to express his views, ideas in a language that is understood by everybody for its simplicity and truth.

blessings
rita

Hi all, here's my interpretation. I haven't read other responses yet, so apologies if there's overlap:

With a SN in the 9th house and Pluto in the 7th, this soul has in the past primarily sought out relationships that have provided it with more cosmological-philosophical knowingness. In the consensus state, this could obviously manifest as a rigid clinging to a religious group. There's been a tendency to seek the approval and affirmations of others, a spiritual teacher for example, perhaps through philosophical discourse. And on the flip side, the soul has avoided relationships with others who've symbolized some sort of philosophy incongruent with that by which it has found security (including one that invalidates the 9th house perception in general). And quite possibly, this soul has avoided expressing its direct experience of natural law/truth due to the unconscious gravitation to 'fitting in'. In any case, the underlying desire has been to gain self awareness through relationships with 'other'. With a 9th house south node, the orientation to listening/feedback has been primarily based on intuition and feeling, rather than a mercurial left-brain process. Being identified with the intuitive search and direct knowing of natural law, to the point of missing social cues and the 'here and now' details, this soul has often struggled with effectively communicating to others in a way that meets them on their own (perhaps more left-brained) terms. There's also been a tendency to rely on intuition, blindly negating information to the contrary.

Some lessons for the soul in this life will involve learning how to learn from others - humbling oneself and learning how to integrate new information without needing to compulsively consult the inner 'but why?'. There's an obvious 7th house application here. By moving beyond the need to understand the 'greater' truths, this soul will be getting into its body and actually aligning with natural law, becoming present with the 'here and now' smallness of its humanity, rather than remaining in its head and finding security in the gaining of more objective truth (a neverending expansion!). To me, this 'aligning' with the 'here and now' has a very Aries/1st essence to it, albeit on the level of mind/3rd rather than instinct/1st.

In becoming a student of life's continually flowing and changing information feedback loop, this soul is learning that 'all of life can be understood according to logical rules' (citing AM's book), and that there are plenty of ways to understand 'what is' on the level of the left brain...and that's exciting! Learning adoptability to various microcultures and other ways of thinking will be a big lesson here. By sticking with particular areas of focus in the 'here and now' (contrasted with the 9th house's tendency to get wrapped up in some grand intuited vision), to a level of actual accomplishment, this soul could be an amazing astrologer, metaphysician, author, or speaker. A keen, tactful mind on the level of phenomena (3rd house) can give way to a true enjoyment of and relationship with all things phenomenal. 

I'm also feeling that the objectivity of the 9th house and 7th house fit together in the same way that the subjectivity of the 3rd house and 1st house do. The 9th house orientation ultimately leads to a noumenal philosophy of Oneness, whereas the 3rd house orientation focuses more on the phenomenal information of apparent individuality. In a similar fashion, the 7th house orientation has to do with relationship (oneness) whereas the 1st house orientation has to do with self-initiated direction (individuality). With these similarities in mind, I'm able to feel how this 3rd house NN movement will activate 1st house PPP evolution at the unconscious level.

OK, that's all I've got for now. Thanks AM, and ya'll!

Stephen

Hey Ari...I haven't had time to do an analysis, so please go on without me. 

Thanks,
Wendy

Hi Ari and everyone,

Here is my attempt at the Pluto 7th House/Sn in 9th followed by PPP in 1st House/Nn in 3rd.

Pluto in 7th house has lived a series of lifetimes where the soul has desired to detach from the subjective reality of self and instead begins to create an objective awareness of how it (self) relates to others. So in this cardinal house a new cycle has begun, one that expands our awareness of self in relation to others, then society, and the universe/Source. In the 7th house we do this by initiating relationships to people in order to understand others according to their view of reality. In order to be able to understand others, we have to be able to listen as an equal. The 7th house is a cardinal archetype and Yang whereas Pluto is a fixed archetype and Yin. Thus we find behavior associated with "hearing" (7th house) and evaluation (Pluto) that is described by cycles of external socialization (who are you, what are your values) followed by internal contemplation (who am I, what do I value). So, essentially, we are learning to relate our own individuality to that of others. However, because we're dealing with Pluto here, the theme will be an almost compulsive need to be in relationships in order to validate one self.

With Sn in the 9th house, the way that the Soul incarnated has actualized it's Pluto in the 7th house desires in the past has been, via the vehicle of relationships, through cycles of searching for a belief system (How and why do you believe what you do and what do base your understanding on?) that could explain life as it exists for the individual and then teaching or "selling" their understanding to others. In the search mode, the person would probably be attracted to teacher-like relationships, and within this, maybe to different structures of relationships, for example exposing themselves to different cultures/communities that have different emphasis in the roles and how they are expected to be lived within a relationship. When they themselves thought they had found "truth", they would most likely be involved in relationships where they felt they could teach/sell/convert the other person. I don't know if there could be a switching back-and-forth of the roles within a relationships with this signature (wouldn't that be more of switching to the Nn)? Since the 9th house archetype is concerned with finding "meaning" and because we are looking at the Sn (moon), in the past once this person had adopted a system that provided meaning, this set up the dilemma of security issues (perhaps not as unconscious as Pluto) where the person may have "defended" what gave meaning (i.e. the system they had adopted) or to sell/convert others to that system in order to provide self-consistency. On the other hand, with Pluto in the 7th house, for some there is the possibility that they have understood relativity and therefore be able to understand that other people's point of view may be relevant to where they are coming from, but maybe not being able to communicate their own conceptual framework it in a way that makes sense to others. In any case, with Pluto in the 7th house the compulsive need to complete oneself within relationships has been expressed via the Sn in the 9th house as mentioned above and they have commonly been validating themselves through the roles they have had within their relationship (teacher/student).

Because the Pluto function (desire to evolve) in the past has been to develop their understanding of who they are in a social setting (relationships), they will have learned, to varying degrees, equality, relativity, and of listening (and for some actually "hearing"). In the process they have been learning to become more objective. So we can see that it would be very easy for this person to play these roles within a relationship and that the other person would feel that their needs were being met (regardless of if this was true or not). With a Sn in the 9th house and the ability to play back someone else's reality (Pluto in the 7th), we can see the potential master sales person, where they could easily "sell" their version of the truth to others convincingly.

In all cases, some sort of limitation exists wherein the person either feels that they have to sell/convert the other person to the "right" beliefs or they themselves feel they have to sell their own sense of who they are or what they intuits in order to fulfill the other person's reality. By not being able to be independent within a relationship, the Pluto in the 7th house person are coming into this live seeking and attracting people that also lack this. For example, the person could attract another person who is much more adept at communicating their beliefs or someone who can in some way show the limitation inherent in the current belief system. This other person may seek validation in converting the Pluto in the 7th house person to their way of understanding. So the limitation is both the way they operate within relationships as well as the limitation implied in believing that their version of the truth is exclusive or conversely not acknowledge/express their own intuition because of fear of how this would affect the relationship.

As with any natal placement of Pluto, there might be severe resistance to changing behavior associated with the house and sign Pluto is in (because it represents unconscious security patterns that we have formed in previous lives). Unless the individual has sufficiently co-operated with evolutionary necessity, at some point, there will be intense internal or external confrontations that will force the individual to examine the "why" in a difficulty or problem. With a Pluto in the 7th house, the why questions could perhaps be connected to things like needs unfulfilled and who am I if I'm not with you.

Nn in the 3rd house will correlate to the evolving ego of the Soul and what types of experiences it needs (internal/external) to assist in the ongoing evolution, which in this life correspond to the first house polarity point of the natal Pluto placement. With a first house PPP, the intention is to minimize dependencies on others when making major decisions in life and to allow the same for others"¦to validate yourself. So, to listen at your gut instincts within and come up with your own answers would be how to arrive at the PPP. With the Nn in the 3rd house, the way this could be actualized would be to let your instincts confirm your intuition both in regards to what belief-system you identify with as well as when making major life decisions and to rely on this when exposed to other people's beliefs while at the same time understand that to grow one has to acknowledge that what may be a valid belief or conceptual framework for some, may not be for others.
Simple example: Let's say I'm in a relationship with someone who do not believe we re-incarnate and this, let's say, goes against one of my core beliefs. The other person may therefore adhere to a system that may at first differ a great deal to the one I identify with, but then I realize that this person is trying to be a "good" person to its fellow human beings and that somehow they have identified with some sets of principles that in the end give the same behavior in this life as what I admire; in essence, the output is similar, even though you do not share the same conceptual framework. The key point, then, is that with a PPP in the first house and with a Nn in the 3rd house, I might ponder on the beliefs of the other person and find within (both on a gut level and intuitively, that it might make perfect sense why this other person may be oriented this way and it may even help me enlarge my own understanding. As I communicate with this person, if I have started to make the shift towards the PPP in the first house and the Nn in the 3rd house, I will not feel the need to defend, sell or convert the other person to my framework and I will also be able to respond in the "right" way if the other person were attempting to do this to me.

The key with the Nn in the 3rd house is to allow yourself to communicate with your environment in a way that allows you to share experiences and at the same time allows you to expand your own understanding. Coming from the 9th house, the person is probably already aware at some level that truth exists in and of itself, so going towards the 3rd house is about a meaningful exchange of experiences (communication) without prejudice in order to expand their current understanding of whatever truths are intuited.

Thanks for opportunity Ari!

Al the best,
Henrik

Hi Kora,

QuoteHi Ari and Everyone,

Here is my attempt for our new assignment with Pluto 7th, SNode 9th and NNode in the 3rd:

This individual's past soul desire has been to objectively know himself or herself in relationship with another through seeking a variety of relationship with different people covering extreme differences.  They have done this from a soul desire to find balance and equality in relationships and to learn how to listen to others and to give to others according to the needs of the other.  Due to egoic insecurity imbalances have occurred with several possible scenarios of how this could play out.  Examples include patterns of codependency, taking on dominant or submissive roles in relationships or depending on another in some way for self identity.  The intent for the current life (PPP 1st house) is to be free and independent and to act instinctively towards new learning that fulfills their own needs and through these actions to expand their sense of self to meet their own needs without being in relationship to another. 

With the South Node in the 9th house this person has approached relationships in the past from an egoic personality structure desiring to find their truth and to expand their intuitive knowing of truth as well as developing their personal unifying belief system regarding life and the meaning of life and their place and purpose within it.  They may have been a teacher or philosopher or guru type and perhaps attracted another who wanted to learn from them or they might have relied on such others to teach them or inspire them in the direction of their own intuitive development.  Currently they would be functioning from imbalances that have occurred from a variety of possible manifestations.  Their current egoic security would be based on past beliefs and what was true for them in the past and presently they might draw in people who have a differing set of strong beliefs who confront or challenge them.  If threatened they may become very dogmatic trying to convert others or submissive to a stronger partner who tries to convert them and thus become separated from their own truth.  They might be deceptive or actually lie about their current truth.  They would likely feel quite alienated from others due to past experiences and be poor communicators finding it difficult to convey what they know through their intuition and consequent frustrations over their inability to communicate cause them to become withdrawn leading to further problems in relationships.  They might also have difficulty making commitments and  deception can occur related to this creating further challenges and confrontations.

Growth for this person can occur through embracing the NNode (3rd house) when this individual makes a deliberate effort to become a student searching out new information and experiences that can expand his or her current belief structures and/or tolerance regarding the beliefs of others. 

This would involve learning new communication skills and exposing themselves to a variety of individuals with differing beliefs from an attitude of being willing to listen to them so he or she can understand where they are coming from, being willing to learn about their differences as well as their similarities. 

Great.

By learning to listen this individual can become more tolerant and can begin to expand his or her own beliefs and their understanding of how many different paths to the truth can lead to an underlying resonant unity.   As this is done the PPP (1st house) automatically becomes activated.  The person instinctively acts independently in new directions following own desires for new learning and experience and through these actions expands his or her self identity.  The ego is strengthened and this person can fulfill his or her own needs instead of relying on another.  The person is more skilled if he or she chooses to be in a relationship to communicate in a better way, to listen to another and to be tolerant of a partner's point of view.  When there is the freedom and the space for each to pursue their own individual needs and an attitude of respect and tolerance for another there is also a greater liklihood that the person will bond (feel less alienated) and want to be more committed.

Excellent ea analysis Kora. I want to clarify that commitment isn't necessarily going to be an issue for the soul - it's just one possibility.

With love,
Ari Moshe

Hi Tory,

QuoteDear Ari, Dear All,

Pluto (unconscious emotional security patterns of the soul) in the 7th (Cardinal/Yang/Air) "the energy of Venus is yang and turned outwards, so we seek more than just what we can provide for ourselves-we look to 'the other' also for fulfillment" from Patricia Walsh's marvelous Understanding Karmic Complexes thanks to Patricia for her Keywords, so helpful! Pluto in 7th is on one hand learning through compare and contrast in relationships with others (indeed through all interactions outside of self) and self, having this deeply unconscious need for relationships as a platform for the souls learning, the degree to which it is unconscious and needy creating possible extremes between (swinging back and forth polarity of the 1st/7th house) co-dependancy and the 1st house PP (Cardinal/Yang/Fire) of ultimately having to fall back on self (triggering 1st house anxiety of separation) finding the courage to go within and accept that all we are searching for, ultimately is not out there manifest in a person or a thing, but to be found within.

Beautifully said.

SN (prior egocentric structure of the soul) in the 9th (Mutable/Yang/Fire) suggests prior purposeful search for knowledge/wisdom/meaning possibly constructively in relationship to others as teacher/shaman of natural law or otherwise where the knowledge/belief systems became/become an end in itself, teacher becomes a preacher, and all that goes with: dogmatic faith and ideals being forced onto others, knowledge as a means of power to control and manipulate others? (Pluto in the 7th?).

Yes that can absolutely be true. With the sn in the 9th, the orientation towards these relationships have been Sag in it's very nature: this can easily manifest as entering into relationship as a teacher and thus playing the dominant role, or even creating teacher/student or counselor/counselee kinds of relationships.

I have a question: The South Node of the Moon represents prior egocentric structure of the soul, on an emotional level? 

Yes, identity is always an emotional phenomena

I need to pause and reflect and will pick up where i left off in my next post.
Light and Love
Tory

Wonderful, your on the right track Tory.
With love
Ari Moshe

Hi Emily,

QuoteHi All,

Pluto in the 7th House
South Node in the 9th House

So in this case the 7th house Pluto soul has used an egocentric structure of the 9th house to actualize its desires of learning to be in relationships as an equal.  The 9th house ego structure is all about the need to ..."understand themselves in a cosmological, metaphysical, philosophical, or religious context." (Pluto I JWG)  So this desire would be operating in relationships that this soul would have had in the past.  This soul has been focused on knowing the truth and created a diversity of circumstances and relationships in order to explore the nature of existence.

Assuming the soul did not yet know how to be an equal in relationships there is a chance this soul has tried to convert others to its belief system and been intolerant of others beliefs.  The person may also have had trouble communicating his/her beliefs to others due to the difficulty of translating intuitive knowing into spoken word or into a coherent teaching - which would have created a feeling of frustration and of not being able to connect with other people.

This person would have been/is highly intuitive especially with regard to other people (? 7th house) and may have used this to manipulate others to get what they wanted.

Yes that is absolutely a possibility.

This person may also have been able to truly listen to another and combined with their keen intuition could have been a very good friend/counselor (or is this more 3rd?)

You are right. The ability to listen to others with a keen intuition which allows for a broader "forest from the trees" kind of insight may make this person a great friend and counselor. Of course, as per Pluto, there's the likelihood of unconscious manipulation/dependencies being wrapped up in that as well. That's where lessons around true listening would be necessary: Am I a playing the role of a counselor right now, do I already have all the answers, or am I truly interested in what the other person has to say w/out the need to provide "answers".

This is where the third house nn comes in - to notice the social ques of the other person, so the soul is not in a monologue with itself on the supposition that it is being helpful to the other.

This signature indicates a very wise soul that could have been a teacher or could have continuously found itself in teacher/student relationships - in which the partners are not meeting as equals but are involved in power struggles where one knows more (or thinks it knows more) than the other.  This person could have been highly dogmatic and intolerant of others views trying to convince and convert others to their beliefs.  Or could have found itself very easily overtaken by the beliefs of other more powerful people.

Yes - dominance and submission.

Although relationships may have caused the person to feel alienated, relationships with others have been opening the soul up to their own intuitive knowing of the truth of natural law.  Whether they found themselves around others of like-mind or not at all the intention has been the same.

The degree of emotional security linked to their chosen belief system will determine the strength of confrontation they have experienced with others.

Beautifully said

Also, this soul may not have engaged in relationship very much at all as it felt alienated from others and was focused on its search for the truth and its own special destiny.  In order to learn to engage in relationships in an equal way - if the soul has been avoiding them - at some point it will need to find balance between being in relationships and maintaining its own freedom.

In such a case that would imply that it's relationships have been oriented to in a very particular way: ie as a teacher, which implies a polarized identity.

Peace,
Emily

----

Hi -

I forgot the North Node in the 3rd:

The north node in the 3rd symbolizes that in order for this soul to enter into relationships as an equal it must learn that truth is relative and that it does not have a unique hold on the truth.  This will need to happen by the soul opening up to other people, philosophies, religions etc and realizing that there are many paths to the truth.  In this way the soul can be more relaxed in its interactions with others, not needing to convince and convert everyone to its way of thinking.  And the soul can then share the wisdom it has with anyone because it is not dependent on a specific belief system but is rooted in natural law and intuitive knowing.

-Emily

Excellent ea analysis Emily.
With love,
Ari Moshe

Hi Rita,

QuoteHi Ari, Hi Everybody;

Pluto in the 7th house SN in the 9th house, NN in the 3rd house:

In the past this individual´s  Soul has been involved in as many relationships as possible.

I wouldn't say this has had to do with a quantity of relationships - ie "as much as possible".

Through these relationships he learned how to listen to the needs of others so to be able to give them what they need according to the their needs, wants and desires. These relationships have also been teaching him balance and equality within the relationships he has had with others because these individuals have not learned how to do this.

There is the need to be in many relationships so that he can have many different points of views,  and this will help him to know how to relate to others and to objectively understand the significance of human nature. There is a danger that by having many relationships he will have  too many different points of views, mixing him up / confusing him.

This in turn can become a compulsive behavior in which he is overly dependent on the opinions, advice or knowledge of others. Through these other peoples points of views,opinions and dictates, that he takes for his own, only adding to his inability to decide for himself how he should run his life. This in turn will only contribute to his feeling of having lost his own identity.

The possibility for extreme relationships in which codependency on the partner or by his covert behavior making the partner totally dependent on him.  These extremes the Soul created / creates, are based on him believing that his own needs are the same needs of his partner and he cannot see that he is a mere extension of his partner, this is caused by his fear of loosing his self identity and the familiar emotional security he has / knows. 

SN 9th:
In the past this individual´s Soul has been understanding himself and life in a cosmological, metaphysical, philosophical or religious context. He has been trying to understand his connection to the Universe and the world that he lives in.
His Soul / he feels, that he has a special destiny to fulfill, that he needs all the freedom to pursue the discovery of the truth for his existence. A loner due to prior lives of traveling in quest for the truth which is imprint in his subconscious, making his alienation to the society that he is born into very real, especially if the society that he is born in is  based on specific religious or philosophical systems that are limiting by their ideologies.

With Pluto in the 7th house, SN 9 house, the philosophical or intellectual confrontations that occurred with others when he expressed his intuitive knowledge, and  when confronted for his ideas, he could not really explain how he knew what he knew or why he had certainties for his beliefs.
This made it very difficult for him to have a balanced relationship in which he did not feel alienated and emotionally insecure for having different ideas, beliefs and values.   

Very good. This is one possibility. The very opposite can be true as well.

Although a loner it is possible he succeeded to keep a more equal relationship with people who could understand and listen to his intuitive knowledge and openness to Universal truth.

I'm called to clarify: I wouldn't classify this soul as an inherent loner. "Loner" is linked to Aries, Mars, 1st house - and thus is connected to Sag through the natural trine. However "being alone" is not a core operative dynamic within Sag - understanding one's personal truth is.

Sooner or later his Souls desire (PPP 1 house ) will push him to take hold of his life, he will decide for himself what directions or decisions are best for him, without the dependency previously needed of others, opinions, ideas or consent. At the same time he will have learned not to control, interfere or block his partners need to initiate new things.

Yes and there's a bit more I know you can examine here as well. If you wish to explore this further, here are a couple questions for you:
What are the ways in which this soul may control others? What are some of the ways in which this soul may be controlled by others?

SN PP 3 house, the evolutionary intent for this life is that he understands that his version of reality, laws, principles and morality are relative, he will  come to understand this through the many philosophical, metaphysical and cosmological confrontations he will have with others in which he will have learned to express his views, ideas in a language that is understood by everybody for its simplicity and truth.

Excellent. Now how does the north node activate the Pluto polarity point?

blessings
rita

Very good ea analysis Rita. Please feel free to examine the above questions/offer any further elaboration and I'll be here to support you.

With love,
Ari Moshe

Hi Stephen,

QuoteHi all, here's my interpretation. I haven't read other responses yet, so apologies if there's overlap:

Overlap isn't a problem at all. Also many, including myself find it most conducive to not read what other people wrote until having posted first.

With a SN in the 9th house and Pluto in the 7th, this soul has in the past primarily sought out relationships that have provided it with more cosmological-philosophical knowingness. In the consensus state, this could obviously manifest as a rigid clinging to a religious group. There's been a tendency to seek the approval and affirmations of others, a spiritual teacher for example, perhaps through philosophical discourse.

And on the flip side, the soul has avoided relationships with others who've symbolized some sort of philosophy incongruent with that by which it has found security (including one that invalidates the 9th house perception in general). And quite possibly, this soul has avoided expressing its direct experience of natural law/truth due to the unconscious gravitation to 'fitting in'. In any case, the underlying desire has been to gain self awareness through relationships with 'other'.

All beautifully said.

With a 9th house south node, the orientation to listening/feedback has been primarily based on intuition and feeling,

Intuition and feeling are not the same. Feeling is Venus, Taurus, second house

rather than a mercurial left-brain process. Being identified with the intuitive search and direct knowing of natural law, to the point of missing social cues and the 'here and now' details, this soul has often struggled with effectively communicating to others in a way that meets them on their own (perhaps more left-brained) terms. There's also been a tendency to rely on intuition, blindly negating information to the contrary.

Some lessons for the soul in this life will involve learning how to learn from others - humbling oneself and learning how to integrate new information without needing to compulsively consult the inner 'but why?'. There's an obvious 7th house application here. By moving beyond the need to understand the 'greater' truths, this soul will be getting into its body

The need for "getting into its body" is not implied here. If the nn was in Virgo then something like that would be applicable.

and actually aligning with natural law, becoming present with the 'here and now' smallness of its humanity, rather than remaining in its head and finding security in the gaining of more objective truth (a neverending expansion!).

To me, this 'aligning' with the 'here and now' has a very Aries/1st essence to it, albeit on the level of mind/3rd rather than instinct/1st.

It'll be both - since the 3rd house activates the 1st house polarity point. If you wish, elaborate on how the third house nn activates the polarity point.

In becoming a student of life's continually flowing and changing information feedback loop, this soul is learning that 'all of life can be understood according to logical rules' (citing AM's book), and that there are plenty of ways to understand 'what is' on the level of the left brain...and that's exciting! Learning adoptability to various microcultures and other ways of thinking will be a big lesson here. By sticking with particular areas of focus in the 'here and now' (contrasted with the 9th house's tendency to get wrapped up in some grand intuited vision), to a level of actual accomplishment,

Accomplishment isn't implied here - rather the intention is to realize that there is always more information and perspectives for anything.

I will have to change that part in my book as I feel it is not accurate. Within the Gemini archetype it is not true to say that ALL of life can be understood via logical rules - rather there are always more ways to study the environment and create classifications for phenomenal reality. Phenomenal reality itself, by the way, is Sagittarius.

this soul could be an amazing astrologer, metaphysician, author, or speaker. A keen, tactful mind on the level of phenomena (3rd house) can give way to a true enjoyment of and relationship with all things phenomenal.  

I'm also feeling that the objectivity of the 9th house and 7th house fit together in the same way that the subjectivity of the 3rd house and 1st house do. The 9th house orientation ultimately leads to a noumenal philosophy of Oneness, whereas the 3rd house orientation focuses more on the phenomenal information of apparent individuality. In a similar fashion, the 7th house orientation has to do with relationship (oneness)

I wouldn't associate oneness with 7th house. That is Pisces, 12th house, Neptune.

whereas the 1st house orientation has to do with self-initiated direction (individuality). With these similarities in mind, I'm able to feel how this 3rd house NN movement will activate 1st house PPP evolution at the unconscious level.

I invite you to flesh that out some more...

OK, that's all I've got for now. Thanks AM, and ya'll!

Stephen

Very Good ea analysis Stephen.
With love,
Ari Moshe

Dear Ari, Dear All,

SN in the 9th (Mutable/Yang/Fire) evokes the adaptable, expansive, "endless" journeying quality urging the soul ever forward in its search for ultimate truth. The inherent restlessness and idealistic optimism can make the soul search and go where no man has gone before (long explorative journeys/immigration) in its constant search for meaning, or in the name of a perceived truth/religion/personal belief, the soul has ventured far. And with Pluto in the 7th, all this adventuring has facilitated the soul's need for exposure to a myriad of relationships, and there's probably been a lot of, and all kinds of from the superficial/ pleasing/convenient to the heart breakingly intimate and fleeting. All this experience naturally leads to a deep knowing/intuitive understanding of natural laws and human nature (9th house).

NN in the 3rd (yang/mutable/air) the restlessness continues but it is time to dissect, classify, order, name and then communicate the deep intuitive understanding gained from previous experience, finding words to describe the most profound (even though paradoxically no words can describe it, this seems to explain the inherent duality of Gemini, facts and left brain logic only being half of the picture) PPP in the 1st, finding one's own voice and finding a way to communicate and be heard above the chatter in a very noisy room. PPP in the 1st, no one can do the work for you, evokes plenty of time alone, studying!

Grace and Light
Tory

Hi Henrik,

QuoteHi Ari and everyone,

Here is my attempt at the Pluto 7th House/Sn in 9th followed by PPP in 1st House/Nn in 3rd.

Pluto in 7th house has lived a series of lifetimes where the soul has desired to detach from the subjective reality of self and instead begins to create an objective awareness of how it (self) relates to others. So in this cardinal house a new cycle has begun, one that expands our awareness of self in relation to others, then society, and the universe/Source. In the 7th house we do this by initiating relationships to people in order to understand others according to their view of reality. In order to be able to understand others, we have to be able to listen as an equal. The 7th house is a cardinal archetype and Yang whereas Pluto is a fixed archetype and Yin. Thus we find behavior associated with "hearing" (7th house) and evaluation (Pluto) that is described by cycles of external socialization (who are you, what are your values) followed by internal contemplation (who am I, what do I value). So, essentially, we are learning to relate our own individuality to that of others. However, because we're dealing with Pluto here, the theme will be an almost compulsive need to be in relationships in order to validate one self.

All very well said!

With Sn in the 9th house, the way that the Soul incarnated has actualized it's Pluto in the 7th house desires in the past has been, via the vehicle of relationships, through cycles of searching for a belief system (How and why do you believe what you do and what do base your understanding on?) that could explain life as it exists for the individual and then teaching or "selling" their understanding to others. In the search mode, the person would probably be attracted to teacher-like relationships, and within this, maybe to different structures of relationships, for example exposing themselves to different cultures/communities that have different emphasis in the roles and how they are expected to be lived within a relationship.

"Roles" and cultural/social expectations is a Capricorn thing.

When they themselves thought they had found "truth", they would most likely be involved in relationships where they felt they could teach/sell/convert the other person. I don't know if there could be a switching back-and-forth of the roles within a relationships with this signature (wouldn't that be more of switching to the Nn)?

That can happen. And if not occurring within a singular relationship, then within multiple relationships and spanning over more than one lifetime. In some relationships this soul would be playing the role of the "teacher" and thus creating dependencies via that role. And in other relationships the soul might be forming dependencies to those who are playing the role of the "teacher type".

Regarding the first case, there may also be a guilt within this soul because of prior lives where this soul has made others dependent on itself which had the effect of invalidated other people's truths and also may have been misleading (guidance that wasn't necessarily relevant or applicable to other people's actual needs and thus lead others away from their own inner compass).

Since the 9th house archetype is concerned with finding "meaning" and because we are looking at the Sn (moon), in the past once this person had adopted a system that provided meaning, this set up the dilemma of security issues (perhaps not as unconscious as Pluto) where the person may have "defended" what gave meaning (i.e. the system they had adopted) or to sell/convert others to that system in order to provide self-consistency. On the other hand, with Pluto in the 7th house, for some there is the possibility that they have understood relativity and therefore be able to understand that other people's point of view may be relevant to where they are coming from, but maybe not being able to communicate their own conceptual framework it in a way that makes sense to others.

In any case, with Pluto in the 7th house the compulsive need to complete oneself within relationships has been expressed via the Sn in the 9th house as mentioned above and they have commonly been validating themselves through the roles they have had within their relationship (teacher/student).

Excellent

Because the Pluto function (desire to evolve) in the past has been to develop their understanding of who they are in a social setting (relationships), they will have learned, to varying degrees, equality, relativity, and of listening (and for some actually "hearing").

Actually "hearing" is Gemini, third house (ie the physiological function of the ear).

In the process they have been learning to become more objective. So we can see that it would be very easy for this person to play these roles within a relationship and that the other person would feel that their needs were being met (regardless of if this was true or not). With a Sn in the 9th house and the ability to play back someone else's reality (Pluto in the 7th), we can see the potential master sales person, where they could easily "sell" their version of the truth to others convincingly.

In all cases, some sort of limitation exists wherein the person either feels that they have to sell/convert the other person to the "right" beliefs or they themselves feel they have to sell their own sense of who they are or what they intuits in order to fulfill the other person's reality. By not being able to be independent within a relationship, the Pluto in the 7th house person are coming into this live seeking and attracting people that also lack this.

All very good comprehension!

For example, the person could attract another person who is much more adept at communicating their beliefs or someone who can in some way show the limitation inherent in the current belief system. This other person may seek validation in converting the Pluto in the 7th house person to their way of understanding. So the limitation is both the way they operate within relationships as well as the limitation implied in believing that their version of the truth is exclusive or conversely not acknowledge/express their own intuition because of fear of how this would affect the relationship.

As with any natal placement of Pluto, there might be severe resistance to changing behavior associated with the house and sign Pluto is in (because it represents unconscious security patterns that we have formed in previous lives). Unless the individual has sufficiently co-operated with evolutionary necessity, at some point, there will be intense internal or external confrontations that will force the individual to examine the "why" in a difficulty or problem. With a Pluto in the 7th house, the why questions could perhaps be connected to things like needs unfulfilled and who am I if I'm not with you.

Nn in the 3rd house will correlate to the evolving ego of the Soul and what types of experiences it needs (internal/external) to assist in the ongoing evolution, which in this life correspond to the first house polarity point of the natal Pluto placement. With a first house PPP, the intention is to minimize dependencies on others when making major decisions in life and to allow the same for others"¦to validate yourself. So, to listen at your gut instincts within and come up with your own answers would be how to arrive at the PPP.

This isn't necessarily about "making major decisions".

With the Nn in the 3rd house, the way this could be actualized would be to let your instincts confirm your intuition both in regards to what belief-system you identify with as well as when making major life decisions and to rely on this when exposed to other people's beliefs while at the same time understand that to grow one has to acknowledge that what may be a valid belief or conceptual framework for some, may not be for others.

Yes. To elaborate on this, this can manifest in two ways:
For the soul that has manifested as a teacher type person to whom others have formed dependencies, the nn will symbolize the need to learn how to communicate to others w/out the need to prove oneself or convince others of anything - which itself has been linked to the soul's compulsion to be needed. This means not having the answers and being more open to "not knowing", being a student of life.

In the case of a soul who has been attracted to teacher type people, the nn symbolizes the need to ask questions - even if that means not being "liked" or approved of by the teacher type person; to question beliefs via logical rational thinking and not to settle for generalizations that don't make logical sense.

Simple example: Let's say I'm in a relationship with someone who do not believe we re-incarnate and this, let's say, goes against one of my core beliefs. The other person may therefore adhere to a system that may at first differ a great deal to the one I identify with, but then I realize that this person is trying to be a "good" person to its fellow human beings and that somehow they have identified with some sets of principles that in the end give the same behavior in this life as what I admire; in essence, the output is similar, even though you do not share the same conceptual framework.

Trying to be a 'good person' is a Capricorn thing. Ethical evaluations wouldn't be relevant within these signatures.

The key point, then, is that with a PPP in the first house and with a Nn in the 3rd house, I might ponder on the beliefs of the other person and find within (both on a gut level and intuitively, that it might make perfect sense why this other person may be oriented this way and it may even help me enlarge my own understanding. As I communicate with this person, if I have started to make the shift towards the PPP in the first house and the Nn in the 3rd house, I will not feel the need to defend, sell or convert the other person to my framework and I will also be able to respond in the "right" way if the other person were attempting to do this to me.

Yes, the key is really about listening by way of actually hearing what is being said, and being intently interested in it as well. The level of engagement and interest in listening/asking questions/getting into the particulars directly parallel's the soul's capacity to accept that it truly does not already have all the answers.

The key with the Nn in the 3rd house is to allow yourself to communicate with your environment in a way that allows you to share experiences and at the same time allows you to expand your own understanding. Coming from the 9th house, the person is probably already aware at some level that truth exists in and of itself, so going towards the 3rd house is about a meaningful exchange of experiences (communication) without prejudice in order to expand their current understanding of whatever truths are intuited.

Thanks for opportunity Ari!

Al the best,
Henrik

Excellent ea analysis Henrik. I feel you are really grasping the essence of the ea paradigm. If you wish, I invite you to further elaborate on how the nn activates the Pluto polarity point as there is more that can be examined here.
With love,
Ari Moshe

Thank you all for your interpretations and continued participation here!
Everyone has accurately examined the core ea dynamics of this chart. Now there is definitely some more insight that can be fleshed out here. So for those who wish, I invite everyone to continue with this interpretation and to ask any further questions. Wendy and others, still feel free to post anytime.

Tory I see your recent post - I'll respond to it tomorrow.
With love, God bless
Ari Moshe

Hi Tory, thank you for your additional post. Everything you wrote is accurate and if you wish to address this further: With the focus on the 7th house bottom line, how does the sn in the 9th potentially function as a way of resisting evolution? And how does the nn catalyze evolution?

With love,
am

QuoteDear Ari, Dear All,

SN in the 9th (Mutable/Yang/Fire) evokes the adaptable, expansive, "endless" journeying quality urging the soul ever forward in its search for ultimate truth. The inherent restlessness and idealistic optimism can make the soul search and go where no man has gone before (long explorative journeys/immigration) in its constant search for meaning, or in the name of a perceived truth/religion/personal belief, the soul has ventured far. And with Pluto in the 7th, all this adventuring has facilitated the soul's need for exposure to a myriad of relationships, and there's probably been a lot of, and all kinds of from the superficial/ pleasing/convenient to the heart breakingly intimate and fleeting. All this experience naturally leads to a deep knowing/intuitive understanding of natural laws and human nature (9th house).

NN in the 3rd (yang/mutable/air) the restlessness continues but it is time to dissect, classify, order, name and then communicate the deep intuitive understanding gained from previous experience, finding words to describe the most profound (even though paradoxically no words can describe it, this seems to explain the inherent duality of Gemini, facts and left brain logic only being half of the picture) PPP in the 1st, finding one's own voice and finding a way to communicate and be heard above the chatter in a very noisy room. PPP in the 1st, no one can do the work for you, evokes plenty of time alone, studying!

Grace and Light
Tory

Hi Ari, Hi Everybody,
The answers to your questions:

The Pluto 7 house person would be attracted to somebody who was weaker and with an inherent fragility in which The Pluto person would be perceived as a strong and powerful support to their weaknesses or problems and by being there and listening to them this would make the other feel that it is understood giving the impression of safety and emotional security, gradually the other persons dependency would grow, and eventually this person would adopt the beliefs, values and opinions as its own. Making the other dependent on the Pluto person for its security and emotional well-being.
The 7 house Pluto person would engage and become overly involved in too many relationships and take as its own the values, beliefs and views of others. By becoming overly involved the Pluto person looses sight of its own identity and individuality. The Pluto 7 house person can become compulsively attached to the opinions, advice or knowledge of others, as a way to determine who the (Pluto) person is.

The Pluto 7 house person cannot relate to himself without relating to others. This can lead the Pluto person to unconsciously seek powerful people who appear strong, stable and secure, who could guide the Pluto person and control their development. This eventually creates a tremendous imbalance in which the 7 house Pluto person is dependent on the other / or partner, this situation can create an alter ego effect in which the Pluto person is fulfilling the others needs to his exclusion.

The NN would be activated by Pluto PP  and the evolutionary intent for this Soul would be to minimize his dependencies on others for his decision making. Also he would transmit either by being a teacher / student in a cohesive  manner to others, so that they understand what his beliefs, ideas are on a metaphysical, cosmological universal truth. He would no longer feel a threat to any diverse opinion, belief to his own, he would no longer feel the need  to have as his own other peoples opinions, values, beliefs and would separate to discover his own identity, values and beliefs with no anxiety towards the separation.
The Pluto person by adopting the PP 1 house will be fulfilling his desire for independence and enjoy his new impulse of being alone. He will also be able to communicate either by writing, speaking or becoming the messenger of his own ideologies allowing for his intuition to guide his message in a rational and cohesive way so as to be well understood by many.
Other peoples opinions, values and beliefs will be listened with curiosity and interest as new information that can deepen his knowledge.He will no longer feel the need to convert or be converted to others beliefs understanding that each person has a right to his/ hers ideas.
blessings
rita

Hi Rita, thank you for your additional post. The main thing that I focused on in my response to you is pointing out how, in this particular signature, this soul can manifest as the "dominant" in relationships or as the "submissive". Please let me know if you have any questions.
With love,
am

QuoteHi Ari, Hi Everybody,
The answers to your questions:

The Pluto 7 house person would be attracted to somebody who was weaker and with an inherent fragility in which The Pluto person would be perceived as a strong and powerful support to their weaknesses or problems and by being there and listening to them this would make the other feel that it is understood giving the impression of safety and emotional security, gradually the other persons dependency would grow, and eventually this person would adopt the beliefs, values and opinions as its own. Making the other dependent on the Pluto person for its security and emotional well-being.

Excellent. Yes this is ONE possibility. Here you are expressing the "dominant" expression of a 7th house Pluto. In this case, since we're working with a sn in the 9th house, this would imply a soul who has used their wisdom, intuitive understanding of life, their spirituality, various beliefs, insight etc as a way to be a guide to others - and yet relative to the "weak" point of a 7th house Pluto, the guidance that this soul offers may in fact be a form of manipulation linked to this soul's core need to be needed. Thus putting this soul in the role of the "dominant" who attracts others who are "weaker".

The 7 house Pluto person would engage and become overly involved in too many relationships and take as its own the values, beliefs and views of others. By becoming overly involved the Pluto person looses sight of its own identity and individuality. The Pluto 7 house person can become compulsively attached to the opinions, advice or knowledge of others, as a way to determine who the (Pluto) person is.

Yes, and what you just wrote expresses the OTHER possibility of this signature. This is the submissive side to Pluto in the 7th. In this case, since the sn is in the 9th house, this could imply that this soul has osmosed, attached itself to those who seemed to have some sort of wisdom the soul felt that it needed. By forming an attachment to these people the soul experiences a temporary sense of security, but is also giving its power away to this other. This can be with a lover, a guru or any relationship.

The Pluto 7 house person cannot relate to himself without relating to others. This can lead the Pluto person to unconsciously seek powerful people who appear strong, stable and secure, who could guide the Pluto person and control their development. This eventually creates a tremendous imbalance in which the 7 house Pluto person is dependent on the other / or partner, this situation can create an alter ego effect in which the Pluto person is fulfilling the others needs to his exclusion.

Yes, and for the sake of this particular signature, the way we would apply that 7th house Pluto dynamic of seeking more powerful people is through the filter of the sn in the 9th: which as I described above would be through attracting and forming relationships with teacher type people with answers. And in this case the alter ego effect would happen where this soul is relating, communicating to this other person through the filter of this other person's beliefs and ways of looking at reality. This is a defacto giving away of power to this other person since the soul is not thinking for itself.

The NN would be activated by Pluto PP  and the evolutionary intent for this Soul would be to minimize his dependencies on others for his decision making. Also he would transmit either by being a teacher / student in a cohesive  manner to others, so that they understand what his beliefs, ideas are on a metaphysical, cosmological universal truth.

Great - and as you wrote below, the ability to "speak other people's languages" (3rd house nn) means there is no unconscious need to make other people "dependent" upon the soul, and thus this soul will know itself independently of others (Polarity point in 1st). In other words this is about not needing to play the role of a salesperson (9th house) who tries to convert others to its belief so as to create a relationship dependency (7th house Pluto shadow).

He would no longer feel a threat to any diverse opinion, belief to his own, he would no longer feel the need  to have as his own other peoples opinions, values, beliefs and would separate to discover his own identity, values and beliefs with no anxiety towards the separation.

The Pluto person by adopting the PP 1 house will be fulfilling his desire for independence and enjoy his new impulse of being alone. He will also be able to communicate either by writing, speaking or becoming the messenger of his own ideologies allowing for his intuition to guide his message in a rational and cohesive way so as to be well understood by many.
Other peoples opinions, values and beliefs will be listened with curiosity and interest as new information that can deepen his knowledge.He will no longer feel the need to convert or be converted to others beliefs understanding that each person has a right to his/ hers ideas.
blessings
rita

Ari and all,

I have a post on the tip of my tongue yet just haven't had time so far to actually post something. I am hoping to post at least something brief today before you move on.

Thank you to all for the time you are devoting to this, I am excited to read through all of these recent posts!
Gray

Hi Ari, Hi Everybody,
I hope it is ok for any body to answer other peoples questions put by Ari,
Hi Tory, i hope you do not mind if i also participate in answering Ari´s question in your mb message, thank you,

How does SN in the 9th potentially function as a way of resisting evolution:
This can happen when the 9 house SN has not found any meaningful philosophy, ideology or religion that he resonates to because he has his own beliefs, ideologies and philosophy of Universal truth and feels totally alienated to the world that he was born into. He will find philosophical explanations / excuses to himself that explain his alienation towards the society he is living in. He may wonder around endlessly trying to find something that is never found or he may simply isolate himself and only relate to few others who share the same point of view, but by refusing to socialize and participate in his society he is becoming cristalised within his own ideologies and beliefs and his evolutionary intent cannot proceed.

When 9th house SN learns the N3rd house polarity point evolutionary lesson which is to learn to speak out meaninfully his ideologies about the world to others, he will have succeeded to remove the block that had previously prevented him from being understood by others. Now he will be able to comunicate to others either through teaching, preaching, writting or verbally speaking and be understood by others when he shares his ideologies and views to the ordinary person.
Along the way he may have been all his life an agnostic and once he could make others understand him he may have found a tribe or a small comunity that share his beleifs, that he joins and becomes part of it.

Hi Ari, i did not fully understand the question that is why the submission / dominant was not referred in my answer, thank you for your comment
blessings
rita

Hello Group,

With Pluto in 7th there has been an "evolutionary lesson of objectivity versus subjectivity" and this has come about through the soul entering the socialized world of relationships, becoming exposed to "many different value systems, intellectual systems, emotional patterns and spiritual beliefs" (JWG, Pluto 1 p.131). They have been learning how to relate, participate, and listen within relationships as well as how to understand their own core self in relationship to the beliefs and experiences of others.  This aspect connects strongly with having a South Node in 9th as they have a strong need to have understanding of larger forces and believe in some sort of metaphysical/cosmological system, as well as an ability to know things intuitively- this can play out in different ways as they may be born into a culture or place that has a prevalent metaphysical and cosmological belief structure that they resonate with or they may be born somewhere that has dominant metaphysical and cosmological beliefs that go against their intuitive knowing.  With a South Node of Moon in 9th they will have internal security tied into their sense of a belief system, so with the Pluto 7th at times they could attempt to assert their belief system upon other people without consideration for the needs of the other person, in order to feel secure in the validity of their belief system, and in a different pattern a Pluto in 7th could become influenced to follow the belief system of a powerful person in relationship to gain greater internal security, in this case take on the security that comes from following this other person's belief system.

As we've already discussed teachers and gurus with the 3rd/9th axis, this makes perfect sense.  Someone with this signature could give their power away to a guru or powerful teacher and take on their belief system as part of their own, not because it is being self-initiated out of their own experiences and growth, but because they can gain a sense of security for themselves through following the belief system of a powerful figure who may appear to possess the socialized and internal security they desire.  The flip side being this same signature could be applied to someone who was the powerful teacher or guru able to influence the belief systems of others around them.  Since South Node of Moon in 9th people can possess the power of vision, they could have had a vision that made an impact on others and changed their lives, not so much because it was truly serving the needs of the true evolutionary path for that person, but more so because of a self-fulfilling prophecy process of having a strong vision that others start envisioning, so the vision ends up occurring through the focusing of that energy.  In this way the Pluto in 7th person could have manipulated others into following a belief system that wasn't truly connected with the needs of the other people- it was ultimately in the end about serving the needs of the Pluto in 7th person gaining the relational power of having their South Node of Moon in 9th belief system validated by others.

When someone with this signature is born into a culture with a metaphysical or cosmological system they can resonate with, they will be able to form relationships with other people who share a common belief system with them fairly easily.  When someone is born into a culture in which they initially do not feel intuitively connected with the dominant belief system around them, they could more easily experience alienation.  Because the South Node of Moon in 9th is functioning so intuitively, they may not even understand why they feel the way they do, or where the feeling is coming from as to why they do not resonate with the belief system so many others are outwardly expressing approval toward.  This can just further lead to a sense of alienation.  With the Pluto in 7th, once they begin to find other people, perhaps less dominant cultures or communities within the same larger culture or community, they could become overly attached to these groups and gain a lot of Pluto in 7th relational security through being in relationship with others who share their South Node of Moon in 9th metaphysical belief system.

However, just as the Pluto polarity point of Aries or 1st to the Pluto in 7th or Libra is not really about becoming a loner, neither is the 3rd/Gemini polarity point to the 9th/Sagitarius about becoming an alienated loner passionately believing in their dear cosmological system against all odds.  The movement to the polarity point of the 1st (which is about fulfilling their own core needs instead of the expectations of others as well as gaining the ability to self-initiate their individuality) happens along with the movement to the polarity point of the North Node of the Moon in the 3rd House (which is about learning that their cherished metaphysical system is relative, just one version of a path to truth).  Really, I don't see how the pluto polarity point could thus occur by being a total loner- one would have to be interacting with others in order to experience the intellectual confrontations that help expose their belief system as being one relative version of reality as well as gaining the core security that would come from being able to communicate their belief system in a manner that can be understood by other people.

With regards to the example of a powerful teacher or guru, this would mean the person with this signature could again be a teacher this lifetime, but through experiences would gain the 1st house polarity point security of not needing to convert others to their metaphysical belief system.  They will have fulfilled in part their South Node of the Moon need of finding larger metaphysical understanding, but perhaps through intellectual confrontations with others or other means, they will have discovered that this ultimate truth is so large that there are multitudes of paths that on an intuitive level they can sense the interconnections- so much so that it is no longer important to them if others believe the exact same thing that they do. As a teacher, they can learn the 3rd house ability to find the right words to get through to students so that they can understand the concepts of their metaphysical system, as well as the ability to focus on the immediate physical environment of social cues to deliver their message in a way that will get through.  However, this is not done in a manner aimed at manipulating the other person or trying to convert them that the metaphysical system is the system the other person must believe in- it is done more in the manner of presenting the wisdom they have to offer.  I recently saw some Tibetan Monks doing sand mandala art and it makes me think of the symbolic gesture of creating such an intricate design structure and then releasing it to the universe with nonattachment in a way but also in a way of intentionally offering the inherent wisdom of the form presented...

In the case of someone with this signature falling under the influence of a powerful teacher who influences them into believing a metaphysical system that is not truly resonant with their path and growth, addressing some of the immediate physical environment issues of the 3rd House polarity point could help steer them away and toward a cosmological system that is more truly resonant to their path, going along with addressing the 1st house Pluto polarity point.  So they could come into conflict with others in their immediate environment who have a belief system that is different, as the contradictions and contrasts become illuminated, since the belief system of the teacher they are following is not truly resonant, they will sense the relative truth of the contrasting belief system and begin to realize the relativity of various metaphysical systems.  Through 3rd house types of relationships and conversations, they could begin to research and self-initiate curiosity in a 1st house pluto polarity way toward discovering new information, about other cosmological systems, eventually finding one that is more truly resonant with their path.  Perhaps they could also at some point use more logical arguments or thinking, or a questioning technique with the teacher that helps them realize there is a more resonant cosmological system out there for them to follow.

In addition, in case the person has felt alienated from the culture around them and have a strong intuitive sense of understanding that is in contrast to how so many others around them seem to be understanding things- in this case, the movement to the 1st house polarity point would occur while fulfilling their core needs associated with their belief system without being concerned about the expectations of others- so this would not mean not communicating, it would mean communicating- finding a way to communicate their message so that others can understand them, taking the risk to speak out with this message despite the expectations of others around them.  Instead of sealing themselves off in isolation and alienation, they can instead find a way to spread their message so that others can understand them, and perhaps make the choice to see things the way they see them or not- but the evolutionary point being that the person with this signature has taken the self-initiation to act on their core belief needs and communicate their message in way that others can understand.

Also, in case this sense of alienation has led them to hold on to their belief structure in an even more rigid fashion, and having their relational security needs of their 7th House Pluto dependent upon it, they will need to learn through 3rd house interactions with others in their immediate environment that there are many other perspectives, and through maintaining and self-initiating into these interactions over time, learning how to be a better listener and listening to the true needs of the other person in the relationship or interaction, they will begin to see how they can let go of their over attachment to their belief system and not be so defensive about it or become so upset when others do not believe it or follow it.  In fact, with a 7th house Pluto, perhaps it is more inevitable that such a person would form key intimate relationships with people from vastly different backgrounds or belief systems that through the 7th House Pluto relational dynamic bond, they would be more likely forced to confront these and then if facing their Pluto polarity point, they would learn how to listen better to the needs of their partner and realize more of the relativity of their own belief systems as a result.

That's all the time I have- hope this makes sense.
Blessings,
Gray

Thank you Ari Moshe! Very nice to receive all the time you put into this...here are some more ideas:

Quote from: ari moshe on Oct 09, 2012, 04:58 PM
Hi Stephen,

QuoteHi all, here's my interpretation. I haven't read other responses yet, so apologies if there's overlap:

Overlap isn't a problem at all. Also many, including myself find it most conducive to not read what other people wrote until having posted first.
Great, and thank you, I'll do it again here  ;D

With a SN in the 9th house and Pluto in the 7th, this soul has in the past primarily sought out relationships that have provided it with more cosmological-philosophical knowingness. In the consensus state, this could obviously manifest as a rigid clinging to a religious group. There's been a tendency to seek the approval and affirmations of others, a spiritual teacher for example, perhaps through philosophical discourse.

And on the flip side, the soul has avoided relationships with others who've symbolized some sort of philosophy incongruent with that by which it has found security (including one that invalidates the 9th house perception in general). And quite possibly, this soul has avoided expressing its direct experience of natural law/truth due to the unconscious gravitation to 'fitting in'. In any case, the underlying desire has been to gain self awareness through relationships with 'other'.

All beautifully said.

With a 9th house south node, the orientation to listening/feedback has been primarily based on intuition and feeling,

Intuition and feeling are not the same. Feeling is Venus, Taurus, second house
Thank you. I've had a tough time Geminizing and articulating such differences in my head"¦my chart's 50% Sag! This is very helpful and applicable for me, both personally and with EA.

rather than a mercurial left-brain process. Being identified with the intuitive search and direct knowing of natural law, to the point of missing social cues and the 'here and now' details, this soul has often struggled with effectively communicating to others in a way that meets them on their own (perhaps more left-brained) terms. There's also been a tendency to rely on intuition, blindly negating information to the contrary.

Some lessons for the soul in this life will involve learning how to learn from others - humbling oneself and learning how to integrate new information without needing to compulsively consult the inner 'but why?'. There's an obvious 7th house application here. By moving beyond the need to understand the 'greater' truths, this soul will be getting into its body

The need for "getting into its body" is not implied here. If the nn was in Virgo then something like that would be applicable.
Yea, perhaps a better way to put it would be "˜getting into its surroundings'(?)"¦I had in mind the Sag-ness of being "˜in its head', wrapped up in the search for "˜higher' understanding. But after re-reading some stuff, I realized that I'm projecting a bit of the Pisces-Virgo axis onto this, and being reminded that Sag-Gemini is about mind, not body or feeling, etc.

and actually aligning with natural law, becoming present with the 'here and now' smallness of its humanity, rather than remaining in its head and finding security in the gaining of more objective truth (a neverending expansion!).

To me, this 'aligning' with the 'here and now' has a very Aries/1st essence to it, albeit on the level of mind/3rd rather than instinct/1st.

It'll be both - since the 3rd house activates the 1st house polarity point. If you wish, elaborate on how the third house nn activates the polarity point.
(I actually felt uncomfortable with this part"¦dodged it a bit, to be honest) Let's see. If we put it in terms of relationships, and the compulsion to manifest a teacher/student dynamic (9th) with others (7th), we could say that in releasing this need, the soul is learning to be a student of life in general, to hear what its environment is mirroring back, to learn (3rd) on its own (1st)...and vice versa (where there's resistance).

In becoming a student of life's continually flowing and changing information feedback loop, this soul is learning that 'all of life can be understood according to logical rules' (citing AM's book), and that there are plenty of ways to understand 'what is' on the level of the left brain...and that's exciting! Learning adoptability to various microcultures and other ways of thinking will be a big lesson here. By sticking with particular areas of focus in the 'here and now' (contrasted with the 9th house's tendency to get wrapped up in some grand intuited vision), to a level of actual accomplishment,

Accomplishment isn't implied here - rather the intention is to realize that there is always more information and perspectives for anything.

I will have to change that part in my book as I feel it is not accurate. Within the Gemini archetype it is not true to say that ALL of life can be understood via logical rules - rather there are always more ways to study the environment and create classifications for phenomenal reality. Phenomenal reality itself, by the way, is Sagittarius.
I "˜got' the essence of what you said in the book, but perhaps editing that part couldn't hurt. About the lack of accomplishment (shadow of Sag), I was referencing the "˜Integrity and honesty' section in your book, as it's manifested in my life. I was thinking more about the essence of accomplishment, which comes in embracing the Gemini polarity of learning (rather than what can be directly known through Sag)"¦not that an accomplishment is necessarily implied by the 9th-to-3rd intention here. If I'm missing something, I'm all ears.
"Phenomenal reality is Sag" - can you say more? In my mind, I was correlating the Sag polarity with "˜isness' and the Gemini polarity with the phenomena arising from that isness. I suppose they're one and the same, and Sag-Gemini represents the two aspects/ways of knowing it"¦?  Sorry if confusing"¦thank you!!

this soul could be an amazing astrologer, metaphysician, author, or speaker. A keen, tactful mind on the level of phenomena (3rd house) can give way to a true enjoyment of and relationship with all things phenomenal.  

I'm also feeling that the objectivity of the 9th house and 7th house fit together in the same way that the subjectivity of the 3rd house and 1st house do. The 9th house orientation ultimately leads to a noumenal philosophy of Oneness, whereas the 3rd house orientation focuses more on the phenomenal information of apparent individuality. In a similar fashion, the 7th house orientation has to do with relationship (oneness)

I wouldn't associate oneness with 7th house. That is Pisces, 12th house, Neptune.
I definitely got off track here.

whereas the 1st house orientation has to do with self-initiated direction (individuality). With these similarities in mind, I'm able to feel how this 3rd house NN movement will activate 1st house PPP evolution at the unconscious level.

I invite you to flesh that out some more...
Fleshing out's a weak spot! Rather than make correlations between 1st/3rd and 7th/9th, I think I'll stick with Pluto as the bottom line. I made an attempt, but couldn't really get anywhere with it"¦at least not in words. One idea regarding resistance that I want to mention is: with a 3rd house shadow in mind, this soul may cling to "˜safe' pseudo-intellectual-cerebral relationships (7th) in which 1st house integration is resisted.

OK, that's all I've got for now. Thanks AM, and ya'll!

Stephen

Very Good ea analysis Stephen.
With love,
Ari Moshe

QuoteHi Rita,

Hi Ari, Hi Everybody,
I hope it is ok for any body to answer other peoples questions put by Ari,
Hi Tory, i hope you do not mind if i also participate in answering Ari´s question in your mb message, thank you,

How does SN in the 9th potentially function as a way of resisting evolution:
This can happen when the 9 house SN has not found any meaningful philosophy, ideology or religion that he resonates to because he has his own beliefs, ideologies and philosophy of Universal truth and feels totally alienated to the world that he was born into. He will find philosophical explanations / excuses to himself that explain his alienation towards the society he is living in. He may wonder around endlessly trying to find something that is never found or he may simply isolate himself and only relate to few others who share the same point of view, but by refusing to socialize and participate in his society he is becoming cristalised within his own ideologies and beliefs and his evolutionary intent cannot proceed.

This is true in so far as it can relate to a sn in the 9th house, however you have not related it to Pluto. When we talk about a soul's resistance to evolution it is always going to be relevant to Pluto. And since the desires of the soul have been played out THROUGH the sn, we have to read Pluto and the sn together, in context, not separate.

When 9th house SN learns the N3rd house polarity point evolutionary lesson which is to learn to speak out meaninfully his ideologies about the world to others, he will have succeeded to remove the block that had previously prevented him from being understood by others.

You are right about 3rd house relating to being able to communicate in a way that can be understood by others since 3rd house relates to logic and language, not a belief system. However I want to make sure it's clear that 3rd house itself does not relate to ideologies. 3rd house is about classifying and giving names to all and any aspect of reality.

Now he will be able to comunicate to others either through teaching, preaching, writting or verbally speaking and be understood by others when he shares his ideologies and views to the ordinary person.

Along the way he may have been all his life an agnostic and once he could make others understand him he may have found a tribe or a small comunity that share his beleifs, that he joins and becomes part of it.

There is no way to know this with the signatures we are working with.

~~~

Hi Ari, i did not fully understand the question that is why the submission / dominant was not referred in my answer, thank you for your comment
blessings
rita

You seem to understand the meaning of the nodes and the principal of polarity in general. I feel the next step for you is to practice applying it all to back Pluto, desire. So if you'd like, give a shot at exploring first just the connection between the sn and Pluto. I recommend doing it this way for now - to take it step by step and to ask any questions that you need to.

What was it you didn't understand about my question regarding dominance and submission within relationships?
With love,
Ari Moshe

Hi Gray,

QuoteHello Group,

With Pluto in 7th there has been an "evolutionary lesson of objectivity versus subjectivity" and this has come about through the soul entering the socialized world of relationships, becoming exposed to "many different value systems, intellectual systems, emotional patterns and spiritual beliefs" (JWG, Pluto 1 p.131). They have been learning how to relate, participate, and listen within relationships as well as how to understand their own core self in relationship to the beliefs and experiences of others.  This aspect connects strongly with having a South Node in 9th as they have a strong need to have understanding of larger forces and believe in some sort of metaphysical/cosmological system, as well as an ability to know things intuitively-
this can play out in different ways as they may be born into a culture or place that has a prevalent metaphysical and cosmological belief structure that they resonate with or they may be born somewhere that has dominant metaphysical and cosmological beliefs that go against their intuitive knowing. 

With a South Node of Moon in 9th they will have internal security tied into their sense of a belief system, so with the Pluto 7th at times they could attempt to assert their belief system upon other people without consideration for the needs of the other person, in order to feel secure in the validity of their belief system, and in a different pattern a Pluto in 7th could become influenced to follow the belief system of a powerful person in relationship to gain greater internal security, in this case take on the security that comes from following this other person's belief system.

Excellent

As we've already discussed teachers and gurus with the 3rd/9th axis, this makes perfect sense.  Someone with this signature could give their power away to a guru or powerful teacher and take on their belief system as part of their own, not because it is being self-initiated out of their own experiences and growth, but because they can gain a sense of security for themselves through following the belief system of a powerful figure who may appear to possess the socialized and internal security they desire.  The flip side being this same signature could be applied to someone who was the powerful teacher or guru able to influence the belief systems of others around them.  Since South Node of Moon in 9th people can possess the power of vision, they could have had a vision that made an impact on others and changed their lives, not so much because it was truly serving the needs of the true evolutionary path for that person, but more so because of a self-fulfilling prophecy process of having a strong vision that others start envisioning, so the vision ends up occurring through the focusing of that energy. 

In this way the Pluto in 7th person could have manipulated others into following a belief system that wasn't truly connected with the needs of the other people- it was ultimately in the end about serving the needs of the Pluto in 7th person gaining the relational power of having their South Node of Moon in 9th belief system validated by others.

Right. I want to remind everyone: since we're dealing with core unconscious security needs linked to the 7th house this will imply some compulsive need to be liked, to be depended upon, or needed by others.

This is why Pluto ANYWHERE can be manipulative: bc we are forming a relationship, or creating a relationship to someone/something and yet if we do not use that relationship to look inside, then we can form a dependency to that relationship so that we ":get" what we feel we don't have through that relationship. This sets up karma and imbalanced power dynamics - including and especially the dichotomy of attraction and repulsion.

In this case we can see the possibility for this soul making itself attractive and useful to others through it's ability to understand things (9th house). However when it's manipulative patterns to create dependencies do not work - ie the soul is no longer believable by the students or by the partner, and thus is not being depended upon as a teacher or counselor, then the "aversion/repulsion" dynamic might turn on. "I crave" and "I detest" are two fascinating sides of the same coin.

When someone with this signature is born into a culture with a metaphysical or cosmological system they can resonate with, they will be able to form relationships with other people who share a common belief system with them fairly easily. 
When someone is born into a culture in which they initially do not feel intuitively connected with the dominant belief system around them, they could more easily experience alienation.  Because the South Node of Moon in 9th is functioning so intuitively, they may not even understand why they feel the way they do, or where the feeling is coming from as to why they do not resonate with the belief system so many others are outwardly expressing approval toward.  This can just further lead to a sense of alienation. 

With the Pluto in 7th, once they begin to find other people, perhaps less dominant cultures or communities within the same larger culture or community, they could become overly attached to these groups and gain a lot of Pluto in 7th relational security through being in relationship with others who share their South Node of Moon in 9th metaphysical belief system.

What you wrote would be specifically relevant to an 11th Pluto and yet it does resonate in a general way with the 7th house because it carries the same social/relationship theme (natural trine).

However, just as the Pluto polarity point of Aries or 1st to the Pluto in 7th or Libra is not really about becoming a loner, neither is the 3rd/Gemini polarity point to the 9th/Sagitarius about becoming an alienated loner passionately believing in their dear cosmological system against all odds.  The movement to the polarity point of the 1st (which is about fulfilling their own core needs instead of the expectations of others as well as gaining the ability to self-initiate their individuality) happens along with the movement to the polarity point of the North Node of the Moon in the 3rd House (which is about learning that their cherished metaphysical system is relative, just one version of a path to truth). 

Really, I don't see how the pluto polarity point could thus occur by being a total loner- one would have to be interacting with others in order to experience the intellectual confrontations that help expose their belief system as being one relative version of reality as well as gaining the core security that would come from being able to communicate their belief system in a manner that can be understood by other people.

It can in fact also happen by sitting alone and reading a book or actually studying something it does not know. The very willingness to learn and develop more associations implies that the soul is willing to leave behind the old identity of already understanding things and "getting" it all already, which itself has served the purpose of maintaining it's dependencies and attachments to other people. Thus the very willingness to study and learn and the demonstration of that implies that this soul is evolving and activating the polarity point.


With regards to the example of a powerful teacher or guru, this would mean the person with this signature could again be a teacher this lifetime, but through experiences would gain the 1st house polarity point security of not needing to convert others to their metaphysical belief system.  They will have fulfilled in part their South Node of the Moon need of finding larger metaphysical understanding, but perhaps through intellectual confrontations with others or other means, they will have discovered that this ultimate truth is so large that there are multitudes of paths that on an intuitive level they can sense the interconnections- so much so that it is no longer important to them if others believe the exact same thing that they do. As a teacher, they can learn the 3rd house ability to find the right words to get through to students so that they can understand the concepts of their metaphysical system, as well as the ability to focus on the immediate physical environment of social cues to deliver their message in a way that will get through.

Great. And it can also just mean that they need to establish classifications for what they know. Kind of like a meditation teacher whose next step is to learn the mechanics of meditation - to give names in order to logically describe what is happening.

However, this is not done in a manner aimed at manipulating the other person or trying to convert them that the metaphysical system is the system the other person must believe in- it is done more in the manner of presenting the wisdom they have to offer.  I recently saw some Tibetan Monks doing sand mandala art and it makes me think of the symbolic gesture of creating such an intricate design structure and then releasing it to the universe with nonattachment in a way but also in a way of intentionally offering the inherent wisdom of the form presented...

In the case of someone with this signature falling under the influence of a powerful teacher who influences them into believing a metaphysical system that is not truly resonant with their path and growth, addressing some of the immediate physical environment issues of the 3rd House polarity point could help steer them away and toward a cosmological system that is more truly resonant to their path, going along with addressing the 1st house Pluto polarity point.  So they could come into conflict with others in their immediate environment who have a belief system that is different, as the contradictions and contrasts become illuminated, since the belief system of the teacher they are following is not truly resonant, they will sense the relative truth of the contrasting belief system and begin to realize the relativity of various metaphysical systems. 

Through 3rd house types of relationships and conversations, they could begin to research and self-initiate curiosity in a 1st house pluto polarity way toward discovering new information, about other cosmological systems, eventually finding one that is more truly resonant with their path.  Perhaps they could also at some point use more logical arguments or thinking, or a questioning technique with the teacher that helps them realize there is a more resonant cosmological system out there for them to follow.

Great, and also using logic to question lies or exaggerations that the teacher may have. Here's a question for you if you wish to answer: What would the greatest insecurity be for this soul if it were to logically question it's teacher? How does doing so activate the polarity point?

I ask this because I want to point out to everyone that activating the polarity point is the result of the desire to grow beyond our limitations - which defacto means FACING our deepest insecurities.

In addition, in case the person has felt alienated from the culture around them and have a strong intuitive sense of understanding that is in contrast to how so many others around them seem to be understanding things- in this case, the movement to the 1st house polarity point would occur while fulfilling their core needs associated with their belief system without being concerned about the expectations of others- so this would not mean not communicating, it would mean communicating- finding a way to communicate their message so that others can understand them, taking the risk to speak out with this message despite the expectations of others around them.  Instead of sealing themselves off in isolation and alienation, they can instead find a way to spread their message so that others can understand them, and perhaps make the choice to see things the way they see them or not- but the evolutionary point being that the person with this signature has taken the self-initiation to act on their core belief needs and communicate their message in way that others can understand.

Also, in case this sense of alienation has led them to hold on to their belief structure in an even more rigid fashion, and having their relational security needs of their 7th House Pluto dependent upon it, they will need to learn through 3rd house interactions with others in their immediate environment that there are many other perspectives, and through maintaining and self-initiating into these interactions over time, learning how to be a better listener and listening to the true needs of the other person in the relationship or interaction, they will begin to see how they can let go of their over attachment to their belief system and not be so defensive about it or become so upset when others do not believe it or follow it. 

Yes, and it also might mean not interrupting others process with things like "I have the answer for you! Or, do this meditation technique - it works for everyone! Or read this book etc... "

In fact, with a 7th house Pluto, perhaps it is more inevitable that such a person would form key intimate relationships with people from vastly different backgrounds or belief systems that through the 7th House Pluto relational dynamic bond, they would be more likely forced to confront these and then if facing their Pluto polarity point, they would learn how to listen better to the needs of their partner and realize more of the relativity of their own belief systems as a result.

Excellent.

That's all the time I have- hope this makes sense.
Blessings,
Gray

Excellent ea analysis Gray. Thank you for taking the time to do this, I feel your analysis is a good example for others to take a look at.
With love,
Ari Moshe

Hi Stephen, I'll respond to your post tomorrow...

Hi Ari (and everyone!)

Thank you again for your feedback and questions. I want to intuitively respond (!) to your question as I am still awake and who knows when I'll get the chance again-

QuoteGreat, and also using logic to question lies or exaggerations that the teacher may have. Here's a question for you if you wish to answer: What would the greatest insecurity be for this soul if it were to logically question it's teacher? How does doing so activate the polarity point?

I ask this because I want to point out to everyone that activating the polarity point is the result of the desire to grow beyond our limitations - which defacto means FACING our deepest insecurities.

I am feeling at the moment the greatest insecurity would be risking the approval of the teacher, having expectations of needing to follow the wisdom and thoughts of the teacher but instead taking the risk of directly questioning the teacher, and their could be a 7th house Pluto fear of the teacher no longer liking them as a result, or risking their relationship being damaged in some way. The other possibility I could think of would be security attached to the belief of the teacher more so than the actual teacher, that by questioning the teacher they are questioning the belief they are gaining security from.  However, I feel like the deeper insecurity would have to do with the relationship with the actual teacher.

Part of the polarity point process of growing beyond the limitations of Pluto in 7th would be self-initiating their 3rd house curiosity and following through on their core need to ask a question and perhaps breaking from the established expectations of their teacher-student relationship, especially in a dynamic like this in which they have a Pluto in 7th relational dependency upon the teacher relationship and when a group of others may as well and not many are questioning the statements of the teacher directly as that would create a socialized context of expectation the 7th House Pluto may not want to risk breaking.  Facing the 3rd house North Node of Moon issues also activates the 7th Pluto lessons of objectivity within a socialized context, as learning to classify various concepts and undertake a rational process of compare and contrast requires a level of abstract and more objective critical thinking.  If the teacher figure has a powerful vision and intuitive grasp of understanding, yet can be teaching at times from the 9th perspective that their vision of metaphysical understanding is the correct one at all costs, putting other systems down, on some level attempting to manipulate others to follow their beliefs, and making statements that at times can be an exaggerated sense of the total accuracy of their vision, or even flat-out telling a lie- basically what I mean is the person with this signature would activate the 1st house polarity point by logically and rationally confronting their teacher through a questioning technique- and this would be a great risk to their Pluto 7th compulsion of wanting to be liked and approved of by this teacher with whom they've had a pattern of following and agreeing in order to meet their Pluto 7th relational dependency needs.  The 3rd House North Node of Moon also comes into play here as they may get this realization through cues within their immediate personal environment, conversations and conflicts with others in their environment- as you've mentioned, lessons they are learning as more of a student of their life instead of a student of this particular teacher and teacher philosophy.

Thank you for the thought provoking question, Ari!
love,
Gray

Quote from: ari moshe on Oct 09, 2012, 06:17 PM
Hi Henrik,

QuoteIn this quote I have only included the parts in which I wanted to respond...of course in the last post one can see the full text including Ari's comments.

...

With Sn in the 9th house, the way that the Soul incarnated has actualized it's Pluto in the 7th house desires in the past has been, via the vehicle of relationships, through cycles of searching for a belief system (How and why do you believe what you do and what do base your understanding on?) that could explain life as it exists for the individual and then teaching or "selling" their understanding to others. In the search mode, the person would probably be attracted to teacher-like relationships, and within this, maybe to different structures of relationships, for example exposing themselves to different cultures/communities that have different emphasis in the roles and how they are expected to be lived within a relationship.

"Roles" and cultural/social expectations is a Capricorn thing.

You're right of course. I think I was aiming for periods in the past where the person might have felt at odds with the prevailing belief system in the culture/community that they were currently living in. So, with the Nn in the 9th house, they may have travelled to other cultures/communities in search of another belief system that they found they resonated with inside. Of course, there is also the possibility that they did not relocate because they found a person where they lived who they felt could teach them about some other conceptual framework/belief system.

...
Because the Pluto function (desire to evolve) in the past has been to develop their understanding of who they are in a social setting (relationships), they will have learned, to varying degrees, equality, relativity, and of listening (and for some actually "hearing").

Actually "hearing" is Gemini, third house (ie the physiological function of the ear).

Sorry for the confusion. What I wanted to write was that "actually hearing" meant that they weren't just listening, but also "getting" what the other person was trying to say. Maybee it's my english, I should have added "psycologically" before "hearing". And I'm not sure if my statement is correct...just wanted to elaborate on what I was trying to say :) .

...


Nn in the 3rd house will correlate to the evolving ego of the Soul and what types of experiences it needs (internal/external) to assist in the ongoing evolution, which in this life correspond to the first house polarity point of the natal Pluto placement. With a first house PPP, the intention is to minimize dependencies on others when making major decisions in life and to allow the same for others"¦to validate yourself. So, to listen at your gut instincts within and come up with your own answers would be how to arrive at the PPP.

This isn't necessarily about "making major decisions".

Ari, could you explain this? I thought that with Pluto in the 7th house one of the problems have been that the person has either not made these decisions independently or conversely influenced the other person when faced with "life decisions".

With the Nn in the 3rd house, the way this could be actualized would be to let your instincts confirm your intuition both in regards to what belief-system you identify with as well as when making major life decisions and to rely on this when exposed to other people's beliefs while at the same time understand that to grow one has to acknowledge that what may be a valid belief or conceptual framework for some, may not be for others.

Yes. To elaborate on this, this can manifest in two ways:
For the soul that has manifested as a teacher type person to whom others have formed dependencies, the nn will symbolize the need to learn how to communicate to others w/out the need to prove oneself or convince others of anything - which itself has been linked to the soul's compulsion to be needed. This means not having the answers and being more open to "not knowing", being a student of life.

In the case of a soul who has been attracted to teacher type people, the nn symbolizes the need to ask questions - even if that means not being "liked" or approved of by the teacher type person; to question beliefs via logical rational thinking and not to settle for generalizations that don't make logical sense.

Wow. Thank you Ari. That makes perfect sense.

...

Excellent ea analysis Henrik. I feel you are really grasping the essence of the ea paradigm. If you wish, I invite you to further elaborate on how the nn activates the Pluto polarity point as there is more that can be examined here.
With love,
Ari Moshe

Thank you so much for your time and insights Ari. I will try to post more on how the Nn activates the PPP soon.

All the best,
Henrik

Hi all - I have not had the opportunity to be focused enough to address the posts here. I'm about to travel for the rest of the day, so tomorrow my intention is to respond to all the posts- from Stephen onwards.
With love,
Ari Moshe

Hi Ari,
is this any better?


With 7 house Pluto the Souls desire has mainly focused on having relationships with others because his emotional security structure is rooted in his need to be in a relationship to feel fulfilled and secure. This being 7 house Pluto is considered a relative new evolutionary cycle and because of this he will be learning through these relationships how to be in it on equal terms. Through these different relationships he got to know himself by contrast and comparison.
He felt secure (Pluto 7 house) and emotionally safe because his beliefs, values where the same as his immediate surrounding, this in turn can become a compulsive dependency when he (Pluto) becomes overly involved in to many different relationships with their different values, opinions and beliefs, causing the Pluto person to have lost his identity and individuality. He becomes aware of his dependency on his partner when he realizes he does not feel comfortable when alone/ with himself, if he is not involved in a relationship. The 7 house Pluto person will feel uncomfortable with his situation and will  be subconsciously attracted  to powerful people that will appear to be stable / secure, who may have the ability to take control/ guidance of the Pluto´s life. 

His unconscious desire and interest SN 9 house drove him to being exposed to different people with different points of views, values, and philosophies. Possibly through teachers, gurus and by reading, this activated his SN9/NN3 axis he started to question all his beliefs and the society he is part of.
These teachers, gurus or influential people, would transmit him their knowledge and  with it a completely new vision and dimension of the world. This in turn would force him to dig within himself and question his beliefs. His 9 house SN shows us that his Soul has already been in search for the metaphysical, cosmological  universal truth prior to this life and that in his subconscious he knows much more about universal truth than he is consciously aware of.
Maybe he will put a mask (Pluto), and lacking in sincerity when exposing his ideologies as he fears not being liked, making him insecure emotionally, also denial (Pluto) in acknowledging when pointing out his views that those are only his views for fear of loosing social grace.
Confrontations with others will be inevitable, as the desire to break free / be independent, so as to have his own voice to speak out to others his views, becomes an uncontrollable force from within.
Let us say that these confrontations forced him to go within, through these introspections he would inevitably tap into his intuition and the vast knowledge he carries in his subconscious mind, this in turn will help him activate his  9 house SN PP 3 house.
His desire to express/ communicate to others in a comprehensive way his views, ideologies, metaphysical and cosmological universal truth in a simple individualistic language that is understood by most people will be achieved as he no longer has the compulsion to adopt others points of views to feel secure.

Now fearless he will integrate 7 house Pluto in the need to have or be in a relationship and yet satisfy his desire for his individuality and freedom to speak out ( 3 house NN ) his ideas in a comprehensive way. Without his emotional security / relationship feeling threatened as he has understood that we are all different people with different points of views and beliefs about the world.
blessings
rita

Quote from: ari moshe on Oct 10, 2012, 09:21 AM
Hi Tory, thank you for your additional post. Everything you wrote is accurate and if you wish to address this further: With the focus on the 7th house bottom line, how does the sn in the 9th potentially function as a way of resisting evolution? And how does the nn catalyze evolution?

Hi Ari, i love this thread, really appreciate it, so much love to you for helping us take our first baby EA steps! and Rita i don't mind at all you participating by responding to Ari's questions to my post, we are learning from each other here!

sn in the 9th resistance (relative to the 7th house natal Pluto): as "natural loners" (given that "many... have traveled far and wide throughout many lifetimes in the pursuit of truth and knowledge" Pluto vol 1 J.G*) there could too easily be a propensity for avoiding relationships of any depth and therefore avoiding the real work of applying all the fabulous "truths and wisdom" gained on the journey. We all know how challenging human relationships can be and indeed some of our greatest learning happens in our intimate relationships with family and loved ones. It's really when we get to walk the talk, so to speak. Also the potential  "fundamental alienation from their own culture and society*" (not necessarily in every case but potentially) can make the unconscious (Pluto) desired for, or even longing for, certain relationships hard come by. The supression of this evolutionary necessity/ distortion could manifest in many ways: emotional "state of delusion and separateness" the dark side of the 9th in which ultimately the soul (as J.Green wisely puts it) "will either attempt to impose its system upon another or will withdraw from the threat posed by another*" taken to the extreme these deep emotional traumas are at the root of intense conflicts and violence towards others (retribution).

nn in the 3rd catalyst for natal Pluto in the 7th. The need to get to down to the details, back on earth (off the idealistic cloud) will coax the soul into the nitty gritty (the harsh realities) of relationships. Communication being at the forefront, objectivity versus subjectivity of truth (Is it true? Can you absolutely know it's true? Bless you Byron Katie!) Understanding many, many roads lead to home, i keep thinking of the Work of Byron Katie (the above two questions plus, Who would you be without the thought? and Turn the thought around?) as being the highest expression of the 3rd house, and relationships as being the ultimate platform for the Work.

with love and gratitude
Tory

Hi Stephen,

QuoteYea, perhaps a better way to put it would be "˜getting into its surroundings'(?)"¦I had in mind the Sag-ness of being "˜in its head', wrapped up in the search for "˜higher' understanding. But after re-reading some stuff, I realized that I'm projecting a bit of the Pisces-Virgo axis onto this, and being reminded that Sag-Gemini is about mind, not body or feeling, etc.

Yes, and if you didn't figure it out, (and I hope you don't mind me pointing this out) it's likely bc your own Sag sun is in the 6th house...

Quote(I actually felt uncomfortable with this part"¦dodged it a bit, to be honest) Let's see. If we put it in terms of relationships, and the compulsion to manifest a teacher/student dynamic (9th) with others (7th), we could say that in releasing this need, the soul is learning to be a student of life in general, to hear what its environment is mirroring back, to learn (3rd) on its own (1st)...and vice versa (where there's resistance).

That's right. Being a student. The ongoing realization for this soul, with a nn in the 3rd house is that there are always more ways to look at things, more information to gather, more perspectives - this triggers the polarity point in the 1st house of learning to be independent of others since the 9th house tendencies have in part served to perpetuate it's separating desires of compulsively depending on others in some way. The act of questioning, being open to more information, new perspectives, of gemini'ing, defacto implies it's independence from unhealthy, power based relationship dynamics.

I want to point out too that with the nodes in the 9th and 3rd house this soul likely has "teacher/student" karma - karma with those to whom this soul has been a student in the past, and karma with those to whom this soul has been a teacher in the past. In each kind of relationship the soul may find itself on either side of the 7th house dynamic (being the dominant or the submissive).

It may be intensely triggered by the dogma or indoctrinization of it's teacher. In the same way others may feel that this soul is dogmatic alienating or controlling through its teachings. The growth for this soul would be to look at itself, to seek self knowledge first and foremost - instead of "having answers" all the time. And this is done by embracing the logical mind, to look at ones self objectively and to always consider more information. This will always expand it's understanding of the truth.

Wherever we find Pluto is where it is ever so easy to understand "others" (which produces a false sense of security) but usually the last thing we do is look at ourselves honestly. So in this case with the 9th house sn, this can happen by way of already "having a higher understanding" about someone else or about a relationship situation so as to produce a sense of security.

QuoteI "˜got' the essence of what you said in the book, but perhaps editing that part couldn't hurt.

Yes, I'm intending to carefully go through the entire Sag/Gemini section.

About the lack of accomplishment (shadow of Sag), I was referencing the "˜Integrity and honesty' section in your book, as it's manifested in my life. I was thinking more about the essence of accomplishment, which comes in embracing the Gemini polarity of learning (rather than what can be directly known through Sag)"¦not that an accomplishment is necessarily implied by the 9th-to-3rd intention here. If I'm missing something, I'm all ears.

I understand what you meant now. Here's the quote from the book to provide context for everyone:

"Integrity and honesty Through the Sagittarius archetype, a soul can easily "bite off more than it can chew". In the largess of a vision, a soul can easily move onward beyond the point of sound reason and logic (Gemini polarity). This can become so extreme to the point of lacking healthy boundaries/not knowing when to stop.

The core issue here is lack of integrity; envisioning based on a natural intuition of what in fact is possible, to the point of not being honest about oneself here and now. A soul can move from "grand vision/plan" to the next without ever sticking with something long enough to truly reach a substantial level of accomplishment.

A soul, post exuberance, can become overwhelmed by the realization that it doesn't actually know what it is doing. If that realization is embraced consciously, it can lead to a deep commitment to live according to a higher level of integrity and honesty with oneself."


"Phenomenal reality is Sag" - can you say more? In my mind, I was correlating the Sag polarity with "˜isness' and the Gemini polarity with the phenomena arising from that isness. I suppose they're one and the same, and Sag-Gemini represents the two aspects/ways of knowing it"¦?  Sorry if confusing"¦thank you!!

Gemini isn't phenomona itself, it is our classifications of phenomona. Gemini only has existance relative to the classifiactions that we make about phenomenal reality. Phenomenal reality, which is simply that which is MANIFEST within creation, is also what can be understood by humans. And that is Sag.

Here are a whole bunch of teachings about this from this mb:

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Here's a question and answer from Gonzalo to Rad:
https://forum.schoolofevolutionaryastrology.com/index.php/topic,529.msg8596.html#msg8596 (https://forum.schoolofevolutionaryastrology.com/index.php/topic,529.msg8596.html#msg8596)

QuoteIs God realization a progressive knowledge of God as exists within the manifested Creation, ie. limited to the manifested Creation, or is it also a progressive knowledge of the Unmanifested?"

****************

It is limited to the manifested Creation. It can never be linked to the unmanifested = unknown because, after all, the unmanifested is not yet known because it not manifested in the first place. What
Souls in the human form can know is linked to the interfacing between the known = manifested and the unmanifested = unknown. That interfacing point between the manifested and the unmanifested is the point of Creation as Soul's in human form can know it.

Rad from this thread: https://forum.schoolofevolutionaryastrology.com/index.php/topic,766.msg13352.html#msg13352 (https://forum.schoolofevolutionaryastrology.com/index.php/topic,766.msg13352.html#msg13352)

QuoteInner knowing of that which is universally true occurs of course through various practices, Virgo, that are all aimed and shallowing or stopping the breath. As that occurs the Soul is then able to penetrate the inner realms of consciousness itself: Neptune correlates with the phenomena of consciousness. As it progressively penetrates these inner realms of consciousness a variety of natural truths that correlate with the nature and cause of consciousness itself become KNOWN. And this knowing, again, is not a function of beliefs because, as these inner truths are known, there is nothing to literally believe and everything to know. And because these inner truths are simply known there then becomes nothing to doubt. The knowing is a function of actual experience, and those experiences are universal to any Soul who so desires to know these inner truths that correlate with the nature of consciousness. Because they are in fact universal then serves as a way of knowing that which is true, versus that which is make believe.

When this is the baseline within the Soul's consciousness, the point of personal Soul knowing and integration, this then  serves as the vehicle through which, and because of, the Soul then 'interprets' the nature of any given phenomenal reality. The dynamic or archetype of interpretation specially correlates to Sagittarius, Jupiter, and the 9th House. As the Soul interprets the nature of any external phenomenal reality relative to this inner baseline the MEANING of whatever external phenomenal reality is then projected upon that phenomenal reality. As the Soul does this is will then automatically create a way of intellectually organizing all of phenomenal reality that reflects the core inner baseline of the inner knowing of the nature of consciousness itself. This natural process of intellectually organizing phenomenal reality correlates to Gemini: how the nature of thoughts that occur as a function of the inner knowing are connected to create a larger whole that is organized.

All of this then correlates to the nature of various 'spiritual' cosmologies that humans have manifested going back to it's own origins on this Earth that are then called 'religions'. This is then exactly where the conflict between pure beliefs versus actual knowing can occur because many who do desire to know the Origins of all things, the Origin of consciousness itself, indeed the Origin of themselves, align themselves with whatever spiritual cosmology without actually doing what is necessary to know for themselves that which is true. Thus, by attaching themselves to whatever cosmology then leads to their personal belief system that is of course used to interpret whatever phenomenal reality. When a Soul does this, without actually doing that which is necessary to inwardly know, these beliefs are then projected upon phenomenal reality so that when phenomenal reality manifests in ways that cause conflict with the projected beliefs the result is then doubt: doubting the nature of the projected beliefs themselves that have been born from, again, from whatever spiritual cosmology they have latched onto relative to the pure desire to Know. This conflict caused by projected beliefs initially creates the disillusionment of those beliefs that then triggers the doubt.

And from here:
https://forum.schoolofevolutionaryastrology.com/index.php/topic,626.msg10101.html#msg10101 (https://forum.schoolofevolutionaryastrology.com/index.php/topic,626.msg10101.html#msg10101)

QuoteThe phenomena of perception correlates with Scorpio, Pluto, and the 8th House. The Soul perceives the nature of phenomenal reality and then begins to give names and classifications to the nature of that phenomenal reality. Phenomenal reality is Jupiter which co-rules the sacral chakra with Neptune. The interpretation, Jupiter. of that phenomenal reality, Jupiter that is perceived by the Soul, Pluto, is thus given order by way of organized linear thought that connects all the different shapes, forms, and the totality of the manifested Creation into a logical system of thought that is interconnected so as to make the Soul feel secure. Mercury is the natural polarity of Jupiter wherein lies the logical ordering of thoughts that correlate with the perception upon the nature of phenomenal reality.

This then becomes the basis of all kinds of ways to organize phenomenal reality relative to the interpretation of what the phenomenal reality means. Thus the basis of that which is inherently true, Jupiter co-ruling with Neptune  relative to the sacral chakra, and that which is not: delusive in nature. The Soul is given the God created right to perceive the nature of the phenomenal reality in any way that is so desires which includes knowing the truth, Jupiter/Neptune, of the manifested Creation.

And from the archives, quoted from this thread: https://forum.schoolofevolutionaryastrology.com/index.php/topic,648.msg10470.html#msg10470 (https://forum.schoolofevolutionaryastrology.com/index.php/topic,648.msg10470.html#msg10470)

Quote
Jeffrey: The best thing to do with scientists who want to argue with you is to turn their own arguments back on them. Then they get reduced to muddle. To the basic statement, "I don't know" and then they revert to their safe little ideas.

Audience: Is there a classic aspect for scientists?

Jeffrey: In our times, it is Gemini or Virgo. Gemini correlates to empiricism. Simply the phenomena of the human mind projecting itself outwards in order to give names to the phenomenal reality of Sagittarius. The human mind makes the boundaries. One step further is that the human mind creates the phenomenological object in space. However, there are also phenomenological objects in space that self-exist. Man created the lectern, did man create the tree?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Back to you...

QuoteFleshing out's a weak spot! Rather than make correlations between 1st/3rd and 7th/9th, I think I'll stick with Pluto as the bottom line. I made an attempt, but couldn't really get anywhere with it"¦at least not in words. One idea regarding resistance that I want to mention is: with a 3rd house shadow in mind, this soul may cling to "˜safe' pseudo-intellectual-cerebral relationships (7th) in which 1st house integration is resisted.

There is no 3rd house shadow. What you wrote however could be true for the first paradigm we did with the sn in the 3rd.

Please feel free to ask more about any of this. If you have further questions about understanding the nature of sag as it relates to phenomenal reality, I suggest starting a new thread for that.
With love,
Ari Moshe

Hi Stephen and all

I realized that in my book I speak about the relationship between "noumina" and "phenomena" which I sense is what you were referring to above. I'll have to reflect on what I wrote and make some revisions and possibly ask some questions here on this mb. I'm not certain in this moment if what I wrote about those terms is accurate within ea.

It's important for me to clarify here that I'm constantly revising this book as I am constantly finding places where what I wrote is either not actually accurate and consistent with the ea teachings or just misleading/unclear. It's always wise to weigh my book against what Jeff Green actually said. My book was only intended as a support for those who are studying Jeff Green's teachings.

I also want to share with everyone here: my sn is in Sag, so paying attention to the actual teachings of ea instead of "already knowing" is a part of my own growth. So again I'm going to go through several sections that you have brought up Stephen and make revisions in these coming days.

With love,
Ari Moshe

Hi Gray,

Quote

Quote"Here's a question for you if you wish to answer: What would the greatest insecurity be for this soul if it were to logically question it's teacher? How does doing so activate the polarity point?

I ask this because I want to point out to everyone that activating the polarity point is the result of the desire to grow beyond our limitations - which defacto means FACING our deepest insecurities."

I am feeling at the moment the greatest insecurity would be risking the approval of the teacher, having expectations of needing to follow the wisdom and thoughts of the teacher but instead taking the risk of directly questioning the teacher, and their could be a 7th house Pluto fear of the teacher no longer liking them as a result, or risking their relationship being damaged in some way.

Excellent

The other possibility I could think of would be security attached to the belief of the teacher more so than the actual teacher, that by questioning the teacher they are questioning the belief they are gaining security from.  However, I feel like the deeper insecurity would have to do with the relationship with the actual teacher.

Part of the polarity point process of growing beyond the limitations of Pluto in 7th would be self-initiating their 3rd house curiosity and following through on their core need to ask a question and perhaps breaking from the established expectations of their teacher-student relationship, especially in a dynamic like this in which they have a Pluto in 7th relational dependency upon the teacher relationship and when a group of others may as well and not many are questioning the statements of the teacher directly as that would create a socialized context of expectation the 7th House Pluto may not want to risk breaking. 

Yes that is possible.

Facing the 3rd house North Node of Moon issues also activates the 7th Pluto lessons of objectivity within a socialized context, as learning to classify various concepts and undertake a rational process of compare and contrast requires a level of abstract and more objective critical thinking.  If the teacher figure has a powerful vision and intuitive grasp of understanding, yet can be teaching at times from the 9th perspective that their vision of metaphysical understanding is the correct one at all costs, putting other systems down, on some level attempting to manipulate others to follow their beliefs, and making statements that at times can be an exaggerated sense of the total accuracy of their vision, or even flat-out telling a lie- basically what I mean is the person with this signature would activate the 1st house polarity point by logically and rationally confronting their teacher through a questioning technique- and this would be a great risk to their Pluto 7th compulsion of wanting to be liked and approved of by this teacher with whom they've had a pattern of following and agreeing in order to meet their Pluto 7th relational dependency needs. 

The 3rd House North Node of Moon also comes into play here as they may get this realization through cues within their immediate personal environment, conversations and conflicts with others in their environment- as you've mentioned, lessons they are learning as more of a student of their life instead of a student of this particular teacher and teacher philosophy.

Thank you for the thought provoking question, Ari!
love,
Gray

Thank you for your further analysis Gray. I recommend others read what you wrote as I feel it very accurately describes the relationship between the nn and the polarity point.

If you wish, another question I have to elaborate on this dynamic: if this soul is playing the role of a teacher, which is also very likely, how does the nn in the 3rd house activate the Polarity point?

With love,
Ari Moshe

Hi Henrik,

QuoteSorry for the confusion. What I wanted to write was that "actually hearing" meant that they weren't just listening, but also "getting" what the other person was trying to say. Maybee it's my english, I should have added "psycologically" before "hearing". And I'm not sure if my statement is correct...just wanted to elaborate on what I was trying to say  .

I understand now. What you wrote is accurate.

Quote

QuoteNn in the 3rd house will correlate to the evolving ego of the Soul and what types of experiences it needs (internal/external) to assist in the ongoing evolution, which in this life correspond to the first house polarity point of the natal Pluto placement. With a first house PPP, the intention is to minimize dependencies on others when making major decisions in life and to allow the same for others"¦to validate yourself. So, to listen at your gut instincts within and come up with your own answers would be how to arrive at the PPP.

This isn't necessarily about "making major decisions".

QuoteAri, could you explain this? I thought that with Pluto in the 7th house one of the problems have been that the person has either not made these decisions independently or conversely influenced the other person when faced with "life decisions"

.

Sure. Simply that it isn't just about major decisions - indecisiveness can manifest relative to even small choices. Choice making of course is Pluto, Scorpio, 8th house and Aries, Mars, First house. And the 7th house is a natural polarity to the first house. So we have the tension, how do I make choices from within myself when other people have other needs/wants/expectations and I am needing to seek their approval. That's what can create projection and inter-reflective listening (constantly internalizing the other person's response as a "meter" for how to express oneself. Fyi I don't know what the actual psychological term for that would be) as well as in some way "asking" permission - gaining approval - before doing or saying anything. It all boils down to "Am I accepted by this other?" So this can manifest in subtle ways, not just in major life choices.

With love,
Ari Moshe

Hi Rita, Tory and anyone else

I don't think I'll have the chance to come back to this thread today and I'll be very busy this weekend. So in the latest I'll respond to your posts by Monday.

God bless, with love,
Ari Moshe

Hi Rita,

QuoteHi Ari,
is this any better?

With 7 house Pluto the Souls desire has mainly focused on having relationships with others because his emotional security structure is rooted in his need to be in a relationship to feel fulfilled and secure. This being 7 house Pluto is considered a relative new evolutionary cycle and because of this he will be learning through these relationships how to be in it on equal terms. Through these different relationships he got to know himself by contrast and comparison.

He felt secure (Pluto 7 house) and emotionally safe because his beliefs, values where the same as his immediate surrounding, this in turn can become a compulsive dependency when he (Pluto) becomes overly involved in to many different relationships with their different values, opinions and beliefs, causing the Pluto person to have lost his identity and individuality. He becomes aware of his dependency on his partner when he realizes he does not feel comfortable when alone/ with himself, if he is not involved in a relationship. The 7 house Pluto person will feel uncomfortable with his situation and will  be subconsciously attracted  to powerful people that will appear to be stable / secure, who may have the ability to take control/ guidance of the Pluto´s life. 

His unconscious desire and interest SN 9 house drove him to being exposed to different people with different points of views, values, and philosophies. Possibly through teachers, gurus and by reading, this activated his SN9/NN3 axis he started to question all his beliefs and the society he is part of.

These teachers, gurus or influential people, would transmit him their knowledge and  with it a completely new vision and dimension of the world. This in turn would force him to dig within himself and question his beliefs. His 9 house SN shows us that his Soul has already been in search for the metaphysical, cosmological  universal truth prior to this life and that in his subconscious he knows much more about universal truth than he is consciously aware of.

Maybe he will put a mask (Pluto), and lacking in sincerity when exposing his ideologies as he fears not being liked, making him insecure emotionally, also denial (Pluto) in acknowledging when pointing out his views that those are only his views for fear of loosing social grace.

Putting on a mask is not Pluto - however the archetype of the 7th house does in fact relate to one's "persona". Furthermore Pluto does not correlate to denial. Relative to the sn in the 9th house this soul may in fact be unwilling to acknowledge that it does not already have all the right answers. Or acknowledge the limitations in its teacher's philosophy.

Confrontations with others will be inevitable, as the desire to break free / be independent, so as to have his own voice to speak out to others his views, becomes an uncontrollable force from within.
Let us say that these confrontations forced him to go within, through these introspections he would inevitably tap into his intuition and the vast knowledge he carries in his subconscious mind, this in turn will help him activate his  9 house SN PP 3 house.

It's not about tapping into the intuition. His soul's evolution is specifically about the north node in the 3rd house. I'm not sure why you included the 9th house sn in what you wrote above. Please let me know if you would like further clarification regarding this..


His desire to express/ communicate to others in a comprehensive way his views, ideologies, metaphysical and cosmological universal truth in a simple individualistic language that is understood by most people will be achieved as he no longer has the compulsion to adopt others points of views to feel secure.

Now fearless he will integrate 7 house Pluto in the need to have or be in a relationship and yet satisfy his desire for his individuality and freedom to speak out ( 3 house NN ) his ideas in a comprehensive way.
Without his emotional security / relationship feeling threatened as he has understood that we are all different people with different points of views and beliefs about the world.

Excellent - that it is exactly.

blessings
rita

First thank you for your persistence and desire to learn this work. That is really a wonderful thing.
Let me know if you still feel the need for further guidance/clarification regarding this paradigm. I recommend reading Gray's post as he has very accurately interpreted these signatures and if you'd like, you can ask any questions about what he wrote if you feel the need for further clarification.

With love
Ari Moshe

Hi Tory,

QuoteHi Ari, i love this thread, really appreciate it, so much love to you for helping us take our first baby EA steps! and Rita i don't mind at all you participating by responding to Ari's questions to my post, we are learning from each other here!

sn in the 9th resistance (relative to the 7th house natal Pluto): as "natural loners" (given that "many... have traveled far and wide throughout many lifetimes in the pursuit of truth and knowledge" Pluto vol 1 J.G*)

Got it, thanks for pointing that out.

there could too easily be a propensity for avoiding relationships of any depth and therefore avoiding the real work of applying all the fabulous "truths and wisdom" gained on the journey. We all know how challenging human relationships can be and indeed some of our greatest learning happens in our intimate relationships with family and loved ones. It's really when we get to walk the talk, so to speak. Also the potential  "fundamental alienation from their own culture and society*" (not necessarily in every case but potentially) can make the unconscious (Pluto) desired for, or even longing for, certain relationships hard come by.

Yes, it can translate to clinging on to any relationships that in some way allows the soul to play out it's truth: to be believed, to express itself, to resonate with another, to be understood etc.

The supression of this evolutionary necessity/ distortion could manifest in many ways: emotional "state of delusion and separateness" the dark side of the 9th in which ultimately the soul (as J.Green wisely puts it) "will either attempt to impose its system upon another or will withdraw from the threat posed by another*" taken to the extreme these deep emotional traumas are at the root of intense conflicts and violence towards others (retribution).

nn in the 3rd catalyst for natal Pluto in the 7th. The need to get to down to the details, back on earth (off the idealistic cloud) will coax the soul into the nitty gritty (the harsh realities) of relationships. Communication being at the forefront, objectivity versus subjectivity of truth (Is it true? Can you absolutely know it's true? Bless you Byron Katie!)

Excellent. This engages the logical mind and is a way for the soul to realize it's own subjectivity (a tendency within Sag is to ignore the relativity of one's personal truth - leading to all kinds of assumptions and generalizations).This can be really important if the soul has projected all kinds of beliefs onto various people. Bc the sn is in the 9th house and any Pluto position implies the tendency to be black and while, this soul may have strong beliefs about other people, or about relationships in general.

Understanding many, many roads lead to home, i keep thinking of the Work of Byron Katie (the above two questions plus, Who would you be without the thought? and Turn the thought around?) as being the highest expression of the 3rd house, and relationships as being the ultimate platform for the Work.

Yes. This will allow them to speak their truth to others in ways that are not alienating or assumptive. It will also allow them to interface with others who have strong belief systems and not loose its power to these people as it has the capacity to know itself independently of other people (polarity point) by asking questions, analyzing the facts, considering the relativity of any point of view (3rd house).

To clarify for those who are not familiar, Tory is speaking about a particular method of self inquiry called "The Work of Byron Katie". It's a great technique for emotionally releasing the suffering we create via our own assumed beliefs about ourselves/others/reality.


with love and gratitude
Tory

First thank you for your persistence and desire to learn this work Tory, that is a really wonderful thing. I feel you have accurately answered my questions. Now I would recommend the same thing I suggested to Rita which is if you wish, to review Gray's post and to ask any questions that you may have.
With love
Ari Moshe

Hi all - so I'm in this town, doing some ea classes, and the place I am staying at is quite a beautiful retreat space in the forest, and yet it has no internet! So my intention is to designate a couple days this week where I can catch a ride downtown to do more computer oriented work. Today is one of those days, and it may be spotty for the rest of this week.

In the mean time, I would like to ask if anyone else who has a good grasp of ea would like to offer their own further ea insight into these signatures. I feel such a contribution would be a really wonderful example for all those who are working and learning here.

And thank you everyone so much for your efforts here, I am personally learning so much and am inspired by the commitment all of you are demonstrating.

Soon, our next step will be to move on to a new paradigm in which we will add signs and the planetary rulers of the lunar nodes.
God bless, with love
Ari Moshe

Hi Ari,
I definately dropped the ball in the last week or two but despite what it looks like i would really like to continue by adding the signs and planetary rulers of the lunar nodes. This thread is very helpful and once we have done the next step and i am really going to try and tackle my EA homework, just walking through it once with the group is helping me break it down into steps.
Much light to you
Tory

Hi Tory - thanks for sharing that with me. I'm super busy till next week or so. Once I'm settled in the next "phase" of my journey I'll come back here and we'll take it to the next step!
With love,
am

Dear Ari,
Sure of course, enjoy the conference, would love to be joining you all. The only thing is i need a lot of time to reflect on the paradigms before commenting, if you could just give us the signs and the planetary rulers before hand and then come back whenever time permits. If not, no worries. Have a beautiful time in Portland. My heart is with you all.
Tory

Hi all!

Ok, we are ready to begin a new paradigm!
This time around we will apply a particular evolutionary state and background to this soul and we will also, in a couple steps, add in the signs and specific planetary rulers.

For those who wish to prepare ahead of time below are the signatures.
For now, please let me know if you intend to participate in this thread.

*****

In this chart we will place:
- Pluto in the second house.
- The south node will be in the 12th house, the planetary ruler of the sn will be in the 11th.
- The north node will be in the 6th house, the planetary ruler of the nn will be in the 9th.

This soul is in transition to the third subdivision of the individuated state. Male, grew up in conservative baptist south in the USA.

(For those who wish to prepare even more ahead of time:
Pluto will be in Virgo in the second
SN in Cancer in the 12th, its ruler the Moon in the 11th also in Cancer.
NN in Capcirorn in the 6th, its ruler Saturn in the 9th.
For those that wish to involve with aspects, assume natural aspect associations (ie saturn squares the nodes, pluto sextile sn and trine nn, Pluto inconjunct Saturn and square the Moon, Moon sextile Saturn).)

*****

So let me know if you would like to participate, and if you have any questions please ask them at this time. It is a true honor and great learning experience for me to be doing this once again. I am deeply grateful for the gift of message board, and to all who are participating here.
God bless, with love,
Ari Moshe

Hi Ari,
I match your gratitude. Am rather daunted by all those signatures but will give it a whirl. Just to clarify, we start by looking at the house placements and not the signs? Blessings. Tory

Hi Ari,

Count me in!!  I do have a question.....given that the new assignment includes a lot of steps will we be  taking these steps one piece at a time or are we looking at attempting to integrate everything in one initial summary?  If we are looking at a complete integration to begin with is it OK for the sake of not being totally overwhelmed  :)  to break this down one step at a time?

I echo the feeling of immense gratitude to all friends in the EA community for this incredible message board tool and to you Ari for doing this!

With love,
Kora

Once we get started, this is what I suggest we do:

Step 1. Pluto in house, sn by house and its ruler by house.
Step 2. Integrate the Pluto polarity point with the nn and it's ruler - all by house placement only.
Step 3. Do step 1 again however this time to add signs and particular planets.
Step 4. Do step 2 again, this time adding the signs and the particular planets.

Hows that sound to everyone?

Ari that sounds great.  Thanks.

Yes Ari sounds great, many thanks

Hi Ari and group,

I am hoping to develop my daily time management skills with Mercury stationing retrograde on my 6th house lunar soul direction to participate in this topic!  Thank you for adding the background piece about growing up in the US South as a Baptist.  On a personal note, I grew up in the US South and although my family is not Baptist, my family moved into a strong Baptist geographic location and I also attended a Baptist associated Southern University.  Hopefully I will come up with something accurate to add from my experiences along those lines.

peace and blessings on this blue sky morning in the NW,
Gray

Hi Ari Hi All,
I would love to participate and thank you for the opportunity
blessings to all
rita

Hi Ari and everyone,

Yes... I would like the opportunity to join in.

Thank you Ari for the opportunity.

All the best,
Henrik

Hi everyone!
Ok, we will now get started on this new chart.

Lets start with:
- Pluto in the 2nd house.
- The south node will be in the 12th house,
- The planetary ruler of the south node in the 11th.

This soul is in transition to the third subdivision of the individuated state.

The key is to stick to Pluto as the bottom line and to relate the sn and it's ruler back to that bottom line. At this point we are examining this soul's core evolutionary past that has lead to this life. Now that we have an evolutionary state, we can apply that as well. As always the value is in the effort and ask any questions that you need to.

It's important for me to communicate here, that the more complex these signatures become the less I will be able to offer comprehensive guidance, just because my own knowledge is limited. So the role I am playing here is simply helping everyone to understand and apply the core ea paradigm to the best that I can. And I will of course ask questions when I need to as well.
God bless, with love
Ari Moshe

Hi Ari,
Hope you don't mind me posting bit by bit, here's my work on Pluto in the second, will follow up with south node and ruler of the south node relative to this soul in transition to the third stage individuated in next post. I'm really stuck on on a point related to the 12th house (mutable, Yin, water) why the tendancy towards experiences of isolation? I don't understand that, work in progress...


In the second house (Fixed, Yin, Earth) the energy by nature turns inward to find the inner resources and inner strength required to sustain that which has been birthed, given form (in the first house). A soul with Pluto in the second house, over lifetimes has been focused on developing this inner sustenance, inner strength/self-reliance fundamental to survival in this life form. The ultimate sense is that outer form is a reflection of the inner processes at work therefore survival and the ability to sustain is determined first by constructing a real sense of inner security.

Inner security ties in with our self image, personal worth, and our values. What we value is key to what we wish to manifest. The soul with Pluto in the second is really focused on exactly what it values and what it is wanting to manifest into existence, and how?. As previously mentioned, Taurus correlates with biological survival and there may likely have been lifetimes of focusing on just that, with the fixed nature of this signature implying a «hanging on for dear life» to what works (inwardly and outwardly) which may manifest as great strength or great weakness depending on the expression and the situation. Of course the more we cling to an idea/l, person or thing (let's take the buying power of money as an example) as that which gives us ultimate meaning (instead of understanding that real power and freedom can only come when we let go, and let God/Goddess) the more the second house Pluto will be forcing itself to deal with it's 8th house polarity lesson and ultimately will have to face the death (shock and loss) and re-birth of that it «held so dear».

Lifetimes of focusing on survival issues implies dealing with very really limitations, physical and psychological, necessitating a narrowing of focus, limited vision; the soul's current evolutionary journey expressed by the 8th house polarity point involves facing the limitations of one's values systems and the reality we have consequentially manifested, potentially leading to a complete personal metamorphosis as a result of being able to let go and Merge with forces higher than what we can even currently perceive.

Much love
Tory


With sn in the 12th house

Hello everyone - a new approach just occurred to me:

A very conducive first step here would be to start with just analyzing Pluto in the second house in the context of a soul that is transitioning into the 3rd subdivision of the individuated state.

Doing this first, before moving to the nodes, will allow us to establish a firm foundation in the bottom line: Pluto.

Tory, thank you for your post - everything you wrote is accurate for Pluto in the 2nd house in a general way. The next step is to apply it to this particular ea stage.
With love,
Ari Moshe

Hi Ari,

Are you just wanting us to write about Pluto in the second house with third individuated stage for now?  Or can we also include the information from your previous post about the Pluto being in the sign of Virgo and the individual being a male growing up in the Baptist South?

gratefully
Gray

Hi Gray, for now just Pluto in the second house in the context of this soul's ea stage. And sure, it's possible to consider this soul's basic background at this point. However the total WHY behind that specific biographical context of course will not yet be understood until we work with the nodes and their rulers.

Hi Ari,

I would like to participate as well.

Thanks for the opportunity to practice!

Hi Ari Hi All,

Pluto 2 house / SN 12th house and it´s ruler in the 11 house:

With Pluto in the second house the evolutionary intent of this Soul  in prior lives has been on self-sustainability and self-sufficiency. Second house being fixed and this Soul has had many prior lives in which it has been internalizing all the desires it actualized in the first house, learning to discern its own essence and what it truly values without the concern of the outer world. 
With Pluto in the 2nd house, this Soul has had to learn lessons of self reliance due to possible situations in which it has lost everything, was born into a poor family or possibly had completely different values than its family, who could have disowned it, blocking its access to its wealth. All these situations would enforce self-reliance as well as security.
This Soul could have a great gift or talent that it keeps to its self because it is so rooted and stubborn, instead of sharing with the outside world, by denying it, it would never have the opportunity of knowing that it could become a success in the eyes of the world, this could also be a new way for this Soul to have more personal worth and a new way to sustain itself.
With Pluto in the second house it is possible that in prior lives this Soul could have been so poor and destitute that it had to become a prostitute, using its body for its survival, it could also use its beauty (2nd house)to unite itself to someone that has power or is powerful, to manipulate others to get what it wanted, needed or desired to feel valued and materially secure. There could exist an over attachment to material possessions and people making it believe these are all its own possessions which it thinks it owns and a refusal to share them for it fears loosing them or some form of betrayal.
Looking at the PPP 8 house/ Scorpio, this individual´s evolutionary intent would be to recognize itself as a source of sustainment by merging with the 8 house PPP, this will teach the individual to open up to other people who will expose its limitations and reality. By being exposed it will force the individual to go within and find within it self a deep sense of who it is, enabling it to relate to others in a more or less fixed way, if the individual resists evolution and does not make the effort to go outwards towards others, it will find itself very isolated and eventually it will lead to the inability to sustain itself. There will also be an effort made by the individual to completely change the way it relates to itself and others, by unconsciously attracting towards itself people and situations that show how its values are limiting it. This individual has had to learn through shocks with others that material abundance does not equal emotional security or happiness.
This Soul is in a 3rd individuated stage and it has already gone through many life times of self-reliance and self sufficiency in which it has learnt and understood all about self-sufficiency and self reliance, yet there is within its Soul this void.
Having gone through all the consensus stages, this Soul through many life times has mastered amassing wealth, possessions, status in the society it was integrated. Also it came to understand as it moved from consensus into individuated that all the material wealth does not in it self produce happiness. At some point this Soul rebelled against the shackles imposed by the consensus society and started to move away, becoming again more turned inwards or seeking a group of like minded people. This individuation has in itself brought on the individual a deep desire to liberate itself from the judgment of others and even becoming an anarchist/ with its rebellion against all and everything that goes against its revolutionary values.
The individual with the SN in the 12 house, 3rd individuated stage would start to feel a   need or deep desire to surrender itself to the Source, by now it has realized that it needs much less to survive or feel secure, if it surrenders to the source for its sustainability, the Source will provide its sustenance.
This individual could have had lives in which it was completely ostracized from its community, tribe or group (ruler SN 11 house) for its values or fixed ideas, causing great trauma to its Soul and itself,  choosing after being alienated  to go within SN 12 house and feel so disillusioned so that it drives its need to escape its harsh reality by alcoholism or simply secluding itself away in some monastery, in the hope to find the Source and peace. With the ruler of the SN in the 11 house/ Aquarius and the SN in the 12 house/Pisces this individual could in prior lives have been separated from its tribe, been taken in captivity, been separated from the like minded people and with it its Soul could have been completely fractured.
This individual (PPP 6 house), would come into this life having deep unconscious fears that are stored in its long term memory and would probably choose to live a more isolated, group of one / simple life, choosing a life style in which it could learn and perfect some me form of yoga, meditation so as to ground its desire to unite itself with the Source. The desire to perfect itself through self analysis and the desire to surrender to the Source will be less frightening as it decides to integrate the total surrender to a more practical universal jump towards the abyss of the unknown.
Blessings
Rita

Hi Rita,

First of all really great effort Rita. What you have written exemplifies that your understanding of the core interpretive technique of the ea paradigm has grown tremendously.

Second, before I comment - you likely missed what I wrote a few posts back: that to simplify for everyone, we are at this point sticking solely to interpreting Pluto in the second house in transition to the third stage individuated. That being said, it is still great that you have put forth the effort that you have in this interpretation. I can see real improvement in your work.

I am choosing to comment a little bit on what you wrote now since there are some key themes I feel are worth correcting. After this post, if you wish, you may post more about 2nd house Pluto in the context of this ea stage. Later, when the group is ready, we will add the sn and its ruler. At that time, you may post another interpretation of Pluto, sn and sn ruler taking into account the corrections and suggestions I posted below.
God bless,
Ari Moshe

QuoteHi Ari Hi All,

Pluto 2 house / SN 12th house and it´s ruler in the 11 house:

With Pluto in the second house the evolutionary intent of this Soul  in prior lives has been on self-sustainability and self-sufficiency. Second house being fixed and this Soul has had many prior lives in which it has been internalizing all the desires it actualized in the first house, learning to discern its own essence and what it truly values without the concern of the outer world. 

With Pluto in the 2nd house, this Soul has had to learn lessons of self reliance due to possible situations in which it has lost everything, was born into a poor family or possibly had completely different values than its family, who could have disowned it, blocking its access to its wealth. All these situations would enforce self-reliance as well as security.

This Soul could have a great gift or talent that it keeps to its self because it is so rooted and stubborn, instead of sharing with the outside world, by denying it, it would never have the opportunity of knowing that it could become a success in the eyes of the world, this could also be a new way for this Soul to have more personal worth and a new way to sustain itself.

If you'd like to explore this, here is a question to consider: Regarding 2nd house Pluto souls in general, why would this be the case that a 2nd house Pluto might not share it's inner wealth with the outside world? Why might such a soul be so stubborn to the point of remaining in isolation? What is the implied fear inherent in that?

With Pluto in the second house it is possible that in prior lives this Soul could have been so poor and destitute that it had to become a prostitute, using its body for its survival, it could also use its beauty (2nd house)to unite itself to someone that has power or is powerful, to manipulate others to get what it wanted, needed or desired to feel valued and materially secure. There could exist an over attachment to material possessions and people making it believe these are all its own possessions which it thinks it owns and a refusal to share them for it fears loosing them or some form of betrayal.

Looking at the PPP 8 house/ Scorpio, this individual´s evolutionary intent would be to recognize itself as a source of sustainment by merging with the 8 house PPP, this will teach the individual to open up to other people who will expose its limitations and reality. By being exposed it will force the individual to go within and find within it self a deep sense of who it is, enabling it to relate to others in a more or less fixed way, if the individual resists evolution and does not make the effort to go outwards towards others, it will find itself very isolated and eventually it will lead to the inability to sustain itself. There will also be an effort made by the individual to completely change the way it relates to itself and others, by unconsciously attracting towards itself people and situations that show how its values are limiting it. This individual has had to learn through shocks with others that material abundance does not equal emotional security or happiness.

This Soul is in a 3rd individuated stage and it has already gone through many life times of self-reliance and self sufficiency in which it has learnt and understood all about self-sufficiency and self reliance, yet there is within its Soul this void.

Correction: this soul is transitioning into the third individuated stage

Having gone through all the consensus stages, this Soul through many life times has mastered amassing wealth, possessions, status in the society it was integrated. Also it came to understand as it moved from consensus into individuated that all the material wealth does not in it self produce happiness. At some point this Soul rebelled against the shackles imposed by the consensus society and started to move away, becoming again more turned inwards or seeking a group of like minded people. This individuation has in itself brought on the individual a deep desire to liberate itself from the judgment of others and even becoming an anarchist/ with its rebellion against all and everything that goes against its revolutionary values.

Anarchist is just one possibility

The individual with the SN in the 12 house, 3rd individuated stage would start to feel a   need or deep desire to surrender itself to the Source, by now it has realized that it needs much less to survive or feel secure, if it surrenders to the source for its sustainability, the Source will provide its sustenance.

Surrendering to Source would not be relevant to a soul at this evolutionary stage.

This individual could have had lives in which it was completely ostracized from its community, tribe or group (ruler SN 11 house) for its values or fixed ideas, causing great trauma to its Soul and itself,  choosing after being alienated  to go within SN 12 house and feel so disillusioned so that it drives its need to escape its harsh reality by alcoholism or simply secluding itself away in some monastery, in the hope to find the Source and peace.

Same correction as above...

With the ruler of the SN in the 11 house/ Aquarius and the SN in the 12 house/Pisces this individual could in prior lives have been separated from its tribe, been taken in captivity, been separated from the like minded people and with it its Soul could have been completely fractured.

This individual (PPP 6 house), would come into this life having deep unconscious fears that are stored in its long term memory and would probably choose to live a more isolated, group of one / simple life, choosing a life style in which it could learn and perfect some me form of yoga, meditation so as to ground its desire to unite itself with the Source. The desire to perfect itself through self analysis and the desire to surrender to the Source will be less frightening as it decides to integrate the total surrender to a more practical universal jump towards the abyss of the unknown.
Blessings
Rita

Same correction as above. This stage is characterized by a soul building the self confidence to creatively actualize itself in this world and to step out of the isolation and fear that has otherwise created an inner feeling of being limited and blocked from the consensus reality. This soul is just entering an evolutionary period of becoming more integrated within the world, full individuality intact.

So when the times comes for us to incorporate Pluto, sn and sn ruler what I'd also ask you to effort more in your interpretation is the linkage the sn and its ruler to Pluto. Everything you said (except for the misapplied ea stage) is accurate, however there was not a very strong linkage between the sn, its ruler and Pluto. The specific questions to consider are: How has the 12th house sn and the 11th house ruler served as the vehicle for the desires of a second house Pluto? What kind of confrontations and limitations would be implied here as well?

Hi Ari,
I am answering your two questions and later on i will try and elaborate more on Pluto 2nd house , SN 12th and ruler of SN 11th house. Quite difficult...

why would this be the case that a 2nd house Pluto might not share it's inner wealth with the outside world? Why might such a soul be so stubborn to the point of remaining in isolation? What is the implied fear inherent in that?

This individual has been reluctant to share its inner wealth with the outside world because it has already mastered how the consensus society functions and now wants to think and discover about the world and its natural laws by itself. It no longer feels part of the society, therefore it needs to break away for its own evolution to continue.It will  start to question the values, beliefs, norms and taboos of society, disassociating from its immediate friends, family and what ever stops it from discovering from within its own individuality.
This individual could have had to have a double life, one within the consensus society for survival necessity, doing some mundane work for survival needs and when alone it would desire to know its own individuality and follow its own natural laws, beliefs, values, needs , customs and taboos from society.
There is a deep unconscious fear that it could to be swallowed back by the consensus society if it does not break away from it, until it understands and has the certainty that once out of the box, it could never go back. Having deep unconscious fears of loosing the values and self identity it has gained up to now.
Going into 3rd individuated it would want to integrate its own individual ideas, values, beliefs and natural laws, back into the society so as to share and give of itself, fearless of it being drawn back into the box, for it knows that once out its out.
blessings
Rita

Hi Rita, I will respond to your post once everyone else has also posted their interpretations on this Pluto placement.
With love,
am

Hi Ari,
My follow on post is below in bold.
LOVE

In the second house (Fixed, Yin, Earth) the energy by nature turns inward to find the inner resources and inner strength required to sustain that which has been birthed, given form (in the first house). A soul with Pluto in the second house, over lifetimes has been focused on developing this inner sustenance, inner strength/self-reliance fundamental to survival in this life form. The ultimate sense is that outer form is a reflection of the inner processes at work therefore survival and the ability to sustain is determined first by constructing a real sense of inner security.

Inner security ties in with our self image, personal worth, and our values. What we value is key to what we wish to manifest. The soul with Pluto in the second is really focused on exactly what it values and what it is wanting to manifest into existence, and how?. As previously mentioned, Taurus correlates with biological survival and there may likely have been lifetimes of focusing on just that, with the fixed nature of this signature implying a «hanging on for dear life» to what works (inwardly and outwardly) which may manifest as great strength or great weakness depending on the expression and the situation. Of course the more we cling to an idea/l, person or thing (let's take the buying power of money as an example) as that which gives us ultimate meaning (instead of understanding that real power and freedom can only come when we let go, and let God/Goddess) the more the second house Pluto will be forcing itself to deal with it's 8th house polarity lesson and ultimately will have to face the death (shock and loss) and re-birth of that it «held so dear».

Having experienced the sense of extreme cultural alienation associated with 2nd stage individuated, the soul transitioning into the 3rd stage individuated is now at the point where his individuated expression of his own personal truths is strong and anchored enabling him to go back into society and share that truth/wisdom/understanding/gift with others, fully in the societal context, and in a way that inspires and leads others forward.

Growing up in the conservative baptist south of the US, this soul would have felt completely at odds with the church and its fear-based dogma, indeed society at large. (Having never lived in the US i don't have a proper understanding of southern US culture but i'm assuming bible-bashing ultra-conservative) This is a great context for a 2nd house Pluto to do his evolutionary thing, growing up in a context of extreme conservative fear-based values forces one to search for truth in a world where seemingly (at first glance) there is none. This forces the soul back in on himself and demands much inner courage, strength and determination to individuate in this context. This process can also be considered as a kind of survival process, when feeling so at odds with society living ones truth is literally a «live or die» of the self, nourishing the inner light we know to be true despite all the outer signals suggesting the opposite, having the faith to keep the inner light burning.

Hi Ari and Everyone,

I found this exercise very challenging and had to work with it quite a bit before I could get any ideas to flow!!!  Feedback is very welcome.

Pluto in 2nd, 2nd stage individuated transitioning to 3rd, male born south US conservative Baptist:

This soul in past lifetimes has been focused in a self reflective manner on inner identification of feelings, values and resources for survival and self sustainance learning how to meet his own needs independent of others.  Whereas at the original impulse the soul was focused externally on self discovery via instinctual action now there is a withdrawal in to the self.  The individual is taking what was previously learned and rooting and grounding it self reflectively defining his own values covering everything from money and possessions to personal attributes and talents to self worth.  He has a heightened sensibility to beauty, harmony, the physical body, form and sensuality.  He has high sexual needs instinctual to survival of the species.  He has been working on these issues to the point where he has reached a certain level of comfort with being alienated from the consensus and isolated and now has less need to act in a rebellious fashion.  He may have reached a certain level of comfort with being able to independently survive on his own skills or talents and with living a free spirited authentic life style reflective of these values.  Because Pluto is in the 2nd he will have some form of "frog in the well" syndrome meaning that due to egoic insecurity he will be locked in to his isolated perspectives due to having become lazy or too comfortable thus he has a certain inertia where he resists further evolution.   Perhaps he has chosen this repressive religious family because he still has certain imbalances related to sexual repression or manipulative narcissism or gender inequality or prejudice or basking in his comfortable lifestyle he may simply not want to do the work of taking his skills to a place where he is giving back to the larger world.  In any case he will be faced with confrontations, betrayals or crises which force him to look at his limits and to recognize that he has a need to merge his resources with another someone or something more powerful outside of himself.    This is his soul intent for this life (ppp 8th)....through this kind of merging and surrender to recognizing he cannot independently meet all of his own needs and commiting to the other there will be a complete metamorphosis of his self identity.   If he is successful in this intent he will truly know and face the fact that he needs others and is not an island in to himself, he will share his values and resources in ways that have value and meaning for others and he will learn that he can totally commit to the other without losing balance within himself....(co-dependency is not what he is going for....) He will successfully reach 3rd individuated when he is able to transcend his isolated lifestyle and re-emerge back in to the larger culture in such a way that he contributes to the betterment of others without losing his authentic values...and he is able to create work for himself that is his authentic work.

Perhaps this particular male is an artist who comfortably lives a life style where he feels free to express his sexuality as he chooses without guilt and in ways that do not harm or disrespect others...he might engage in tantra or have a sexual relationship with a partner of another race or choose to cohabitate with a partner making a mutually agreeable commitment to the relationship yet choose not to marry.....or perhaps he chose his repressive family of origin because he still has imbalances to work out around his sexuality....maybe he was in to prostitution either using others or being used in the past and now he attracts a powerful partner who challenges his sexual attitudes forcing him to confront his limits and to make necessary changes regarding feelings and values that are more respectful to the other.  Perhaps he has become very skilled with his art and has achieved some recognition from others.  He may have achieved a high sense of self worth around his talents and ability to be a free spirit and to live authentically producing art that reflects his values about life....yet he might have become too comfortable with some form of inertia or crystalization setting in and become lazy....the result is that his work becomes less interesting, others don't support him financially and he is forced to look at how he has cut himself off from the outside influences that could provide the stimulus he needs to go deeper in his work....or he might attract a more cataclysmic betrayal from an art critic who he has trusted in the past who tears his work apart and exhaults the work of others who are more gifted.  Whatever the circumstance this man will have to confront the fact that his isolation and inertia stiffles his evolution and  that in order to move forward he will have to get out of himself and merge with something or someone more powerful....perhaps he will apprentice with a gifted mentor or enter a new program of study to expand his abilities....whatever he chooses he must make a conscious commitment to the other person or situation and confront his egoic fears around losing his long fought for isolated self sustaining identity....in the process he becomes a different person.  One scenario of how this could play out for this man would be that he opens up a whole new world of contacts because his work has totally changed in to a unique new art expression with expanded renewed appeal.....this could bring him an offer to link up with an art school where he becomes a student consultant. He is then in a role where he works with other students who want to apprentice with him so they can to learn ways of discovering their own unique artistic creations....in this way he would have successfully transitioned to third stage individuated because he is now giving back to the larger culture yet retains his own authentic values.  He is able to once again support himself through his authentic work.   

Dear Ari, Dear others on the thread,

Adding on to my previous posts:

The limitations implied by the second house Pluto placement may present themselves differently, either as lack of material resources or conversely, the soul can be born into great wealth with extremely limited emotional support/nourishment from the parents and family. However the limitations manifest, the second house Pluto soul's work is on developing the inner resources required to self sustain and indeed thrive through the limitations. How we are able to do that depends on how we give meaning to our experiences, our sense of meaning in life is wholly determined by our values, and our values begin at home, starting with how we relate to our ourselves (and then by consequence, others). With a second house Pluto (fixed, yin, earth) would the tendancy too easily be to stagnate, cristallize?, slow to move and slow to change, in which case the limitations could be one's own limited values triggering the ppp in the 8th as necessary inner or outer confrontations forcing re-evaluation, transformation, metamorphosis and moving into 3rd stage individuated, potentially a merging with new value systems or people, a sharing of the new inner/outer resources.

Values also relate to one's intrinsic sexual nature, sexual values and again moving into the 3rd stage individuated, one can imagine a sexual merging/union with a person or people that exemplify that which we are seeking or wanting to share. In the context of conservative Baptist southern culture it would not be a surprise if the church and the society's rigidly conservative judgements and distortions regarding sexuality represent the limitations which the soul is working to move beyond.

Much Light to you all

Hi Emily, Gray and Henrik - checking in here, let me know if you still intend to post.

Also want to clarify for everyone, in case this is a point of confusion, that what's most important at this stage is that Pluto in the second house is correctly applied to a soul who is transitioning into the third individuated state of evolution.

As we fill in more of the ea chart pieces we'll naturally understand more of the "why" behind that particular social upbringing and context. Of course with just Pluto at this point we cannot make any specific, detailed correlations regarding why this soul may have chosen to grow up in that kind of environment.
With love,
Ari Moshe

Hi Ari,

I have just begun the process of collecting my thoughts and writing, and intend to post something in the next couple of days, hopefully tomorrow.

with gratitude,
Gray

Hi Ari,

I will try to post in the next few days regarding Pluto in the 2nd house, transition into 3rd substage of individuated. Please feel free to proceed ahead...I'm following along, which by itself, is very helpful.

All the best,
Henrik

Hi,

I will try to post very soon - and am following along if you move ahead before I get to it.

-Emily

Hi Ar,i Hi all,

Pluto in the 2nd house going into 3rd stage consensus,

This individual in prior lives has been developing its self-reliance and self sustenance. It comes into this life knowing how to sustain itself on the emotional and physical plane as in prior life times it has already been learning to identify its personal values and needs. These values and needs were developed as a result of  its desires to remain rooted (2nd house) in itself. This way it has experienced its own essence regardless of what went around it or in the world. In other prior life times it has already learned to identify its need for material wealth as a mean of survival and as a mean of societal acceptance and power. Also it learned that material wealth does not bring any physical security  nor emotional security because it has already in the past had to deal with the unconscious fear of loss ( Pluto 2 house ), not having enough material wealth. Wealth and material goods imply power and it may, in prior lives, have been too lazy to create its own material wealth, having relationships in which it  manipulated other people´s money or resources for its own profit.
As a result of this the deep unconscious fear of the loss of its material wealth and resources it has the need to hoard its material wealth. Through other people or outside forces confrontations will occur so that it stops hoarding this material wealth and starts sharing it with others.( PPP 8th house ).
Along many life times It had to rebuild  itself for its own preservation with stronger self-reliance in order to enforce upon it a re-evaluation of its value system. Starting from scratch, in order to enforce lessons of self-reliance with a different value system  that is less attached to material wealth (consensus towards individuated ) and accepting a simpler, poorer existence. This in which it seeks more like minded people who have similar values, beliefs or ideologies that achieved this by either going to live in communities of small groups, working on self beliefs and rebelling against everything that has different emotional and financial values than itself or its group. It shed along the way the family ideologies, values and beliefs, becoming a total rebel and anarchist towards the people who  raised it and the society it was inserted.
With  PPP in the 8th house the evolutionary intent will lead it to have  intense internal and external confrontations. These confrontations will show it its limitations implied in its value systems, how it relates to itself and how it identifies with its own reality.( Pluto 2nd house ). Forcing upon it the realization of deeper levels of reality demonstrating to it that there is more to life than material wealth and all the bondage it entails. It will no longer have to keep in secrecy its material wealth for fear of loosing or being betrayed by the other(s) because it has understood that to have and not to share with others does not bring it security or happiness. ( PPP 8th house )
It desperately wanted to find its essence through deep introspection , its personal values and what society it would like to live in. Once it found these belief systems that fit its personality it did not know how to express them towards the out side world or the society keeping itself isolated and withdrawn. Integrating the PPP 8th house, It will focus its attention(2nd stage individuated going onto 3rd stage individuated )in opening up, trying to find out new ideologies, secret societies and universal truths, merging it self and its resources with others. As a result of this it is allowing itself for a broader and deepening of its individuating commitment. Not only but it will also more readily share its individualistic resources with others rather than keeping them isolated and restrictedly for itself. As a result of sharing it self with others that have like minded values, a metamorphosis occurs in which its past limitations are overcome and it has expanded its values, beliefs and self reliance.
Blessings
Rita

Hi Ari and Group,

With a second house Pluto and entering the third stage of the Individuated state this lifetime, this Soul's emphasis on survival, self-reliance, and self-sufficiency will come through an identification with his Self as the resource that will lead to his own sustenance.  The current phase of development for this Soul being a transition into the third stage of the Individuated means that he will see himself in contrast to the consensus culture surrounding him, and will maintain a self-reliance on his own self-vision in order to feel secure in an environment that he will come to learn through his development is filled with consensus values that are in contrast to the values he knows from within himself.  He will be experienced in the second stage of Individuation lessons involving a detached viewpoint upon consensus reality and it's negative consequences such as oppression;  instead of being filled with anger and a pessimistic feeling of futility in making effort to transform consensus reality as is more typical in the second stage of Individuation, transitioning into the third stage this lifetime means that this soul feels secure enough to integrate his gifts and resources into society without the fear of losing himself into the consensus value system, thereby making the effort to transform consensus reality through his effort.

However, having a second house Pluto also means that along with his strong sense of self, self-reliance, and self-sufficiency comes a vision of himself that is ultimately limited.  The fixed nature of the Taurus archetype in relation to the second house can mean that an overreliance on this limited vision of self, a stubborn refusal to open up and acknowledge other value systems, could lead to a state of inertia.  The third substage of Individuated would mean this soul has strongly developed abilities that have the potential to be integrated and implemented into the world surrounding him, however if he is overly defensive about his values and resources he could make his integration into society more difficult.  In addition, if he rests on his laurels, so to speak, the lazy aspect of the Taurus archetype could also occur and feed into greater inertia.

The risk of inertia that can come from a second house Pluto is often tested and stirred up through internal and external confrontations with others.  Being in the Individuated stage means that this will certainly be occurring in a very direct way.  For example, for this specific soul growing up in a Southern USA Baptist culture will be an early testing ground of these types of confrontations.  Ultimately, however, being in the third substage of Individuated adds extra emphasis to the second house Pluto lesson of learning to merge with others and link with the needs of the society surrounding him in a way that can be compatible with the value systems surrounding him in society.   Not compatible in a sense of assimilating his value system into consensus values, but instead meaning compatible in the sense of being able to act from his contrasting value system in a way that allows him to more successfully interact with others in society and help transform consensus reality as a result. Through confrontations he feels his own vision and values uprising from within in relation to the Southern Baptist and greater USA culture surrounding him, as well as gaining greater focus on his own values through direct confrontations coming from other people in his environment, he will begin a process of discovering the limitations of his strongly ingrained value system.  He will use the positive side of detachment as an Individuated process of discovering the relative nature of beliefs and values in different cultures, and come to see himself as a member of a greater global community more so than the limited Southern USA Baptist culture of his birth.

The fixed nature of the Taurus archetype along with the nature of the Individuated stage, especially the second substage this soul would be moving away from, could influence him to go into isolation and a defiant place of protection of the values he holds dear to himself, becoming even angry against the consensus culture confronting his sense of values.  However, moving into the third substage of Individuated goes along with the movement to the Pluto polarity point of the 8th house in the sense that his true evolutionary path will involve finding a way to integrate his values and resources into the society surrounding him instead of choosing to be isolated away from it.  This theme of lessons from merging will repeatedly occur in his lifetime, at times through crises, forcing him to confront the issue of merging himself and his resources back into a society that has a consensus culture that has a dominant value system in contrast to his own value system.  The Individuated phase of development reflects a process of expanding his consciousness ultimately, after working his way through the various confrontations and crises he will experience with his self-reliant value system.

Through his lessons of learning how to merge his resources with others, he will also gain the capacity to show others how to do the same, helping others along with their own personal individuation process as he does the same for himself.  In particular importance will be the lesson of how he can merge with others or other value systems without becoming dependent upon what he is merging with.  In this way the second house Pluto will help him identify his self as the resource creating his self-sustainment, instead of losing his sense of self into the value systems and people he feels drawn to in  his process of individuation.  In the end, he will experience a transformation that adds to the strong value system he has brought into this lifetime, so that his own process of self-reliance will continue in a manner that transfigures the existing limitations of his value system he discovers through all of his confrontations.  In this way, he will also be able to help others transform themselves, and he will also have the potential ability to help transform the very nature of consensus reality itself.

A catalyst for his transformative experiences will be a tendency to repeatedly attract powerful "others" into his life, others who hold a strong 8th House ability to help him reveal the source of his own limitations.  These 8th House type of relationships will help propel him toward the development of his Pluto polarity point through giving him greater clarity into the manifestations of his self-reliant value system into society as well as the reasons "why" behind his value system, the roots of it.  These figures can come in many forms, from teachers to elders to family members to neighbors to co-workers to peers to friends to students and so on.  These figures at times could directly question or confront his value system, or at other times he could learn from the impact of his value system upon these figures.

An additional type of powerful 8th house relationship that will be part of his Pluto polarity development will come through his strong sexual nature that reflects a second house Pluto.  Jeff Green in the first Pluto book described second house Pluto people as having an intense need for sexual release that will lead to the importance of masturbation to help release their sexuality and ground their beings, even in times when they are engaging in a sexual relationship with a partner.  His strong sexual nature will help magnetize intense sexual relationships that deeply stir lessons of merging with others as well as deeply penetrate to the core of the source of his value system.  For example, if he is sexually manipulative to prove his own power he will ultimately face confrontations or crises revealing this to himself.  These intense sexual relationships can also expose the limitations of his value system.  For example, he could be drawn into sexual relationships that cross the taboo lines drawn by his Southern USA Baptist culture origins, and through the experience of testing these taboos he will gain a greater sense of his own true value system versus the one imposed upon him by his surrounding society.  In the most basic sense, he could at times draw a sexual partner to himself who comes from a dramatically different background and cultural value system then he has come from, and through the process of attempting to relate as well as the deep energetic mergings of his sexuality with them, he will begin to transform the limitations of his own value system.

The 8th House polarity point of these relationships, as well as the other transformative events and experiences he will experience, sometimes of a very difficult nature, will be to at times force him to examine the internal underpinnings behind the motivational patterns of his life.  He will come to examine the why behind his resources and personal values, the why behind his personal dynamics that ultimately create the life events he experiences.  While these events could feel cataclysmic at times, they will serve the purpose of helping him transform his behavior patterns into new ways of relating to himself, relating to others, and relating to reality- the total of reality as well as the consensus reality he has struggled against in the past.  Through the process of discovering "why" he has acted in a limited manner,  he will more easily be able to redefine his values in order to experience greater growth, and he will begin to consciously choose to unite with specific activities and individuals that will facilitate the transformation of his limited value system.  Most effective for this process will be 8th House individuals who help him continue to develop his reliance upon  himself, instead of becoming dependent upon their relationship.

As a result of all of his own personal mutations and growth, he will gain a strong capacity to also help focus other people on the "why" behind their own self-imposed limitations, and he will gain a greater ability to help transform others around him through suggesting an appropriate and effective method for their transformation.  In this way he will have an even greater ability to transform the wider societal reality he finds himself within.  Transitioning into the third substage of being Individuated gives him the powerful opportunity to help transform consensus institutions and systems from within, through finding a way to integrate his own gifts and resources into society, help influence the self-transformation of others around him, and ultimately make very direct transformational effort by drawing from his own resources. His strong sense of self-reliance and self-resources will prevent him from being manipulated by societal power brokers or the danger of losing himself and his sense of values through his 8th house merging;  this powerful ability will have been earned through all of his trials and tribulations that led to this transformed pattern of behavior.  Up until this ultimate transformation occurs, however, there could be more of a tendency for this Soul to attempt to manipulate power, be defensive or stubborn with regard to his value system, or attempt to possess what he feels is his to own.  However, through the process of 8th house encounters with others as well as intense 8th house events, he will gain the ability to understand the source of his previous limiting values and make the necessary changes to transform.

in gratitude to all of your effort,
Gray

Hi - Here is my attempt at Pluto in the 2nd, third stage Individuated:

Pluto in the second souls have been learning the lessons of self-reliance and self-sufficiency.  They are used to withdrawing into themselves to discover the essence of who they are, and what their values and needs are.  In the individuated state they will be identifying themselves as a source of sustainment; learning how to take care of themselves through their own talent and efforts. 

In the third subdivision of the individuated state I think this indicates a situation where the soul is attempting to take its own unique talent out into the world in a productive way, without losing its sense of self.  This is a point of great potential to share what one has with others.  This person could have very unique, progressive talents.  It could be challenging for this soul to bring itself out into the world in this way - but I think easier than in the 1st or 2nd subdivision where the emphasis is on isolation from society. 

The soul would also attract people and experiences which draw it out of itself in an effort to grow past any limitations it has created for itself by being so withdrawn.

Peace,
Emily

Today I will be responding to the posts made since it'll take some time till we move onto the next step. Henrik, still feel free to post whenever.

Everyone has very clearly exemplified an understanding of the basic principals of applying Pluto to a particular evolutionary stage. I ask some questions for some of you to deepen your interpretation. Please take your time to read my responses and to ask any questions that you need to.
With love,
Ari Moshe

Hi Rita, I have posted both of your interpretations below.

QuoteHi Ari,
I am answering your two questions and later on i will try and elaborate more on Pluto 2nd house , SN 12th and ruler of SN 11th house. Quite difficult...

why would this be the case that a 2nd house Pluto might not share it's inner wealth with the outside world? Why might such a soul be so stubborn to the point of remaining in isolation? What is the implied fear inherent in that?

This individual has been reluctant to share its inner wealth with the outside world because it has already mastered how the consensus society functions and now wants to think and discover about the world and its natural laws by itself. It no longer feels part of the society, therefore it needs to break away for its own evolution to continue. It will  start to question the values, beliefs, norms and taboos of society, disassociating from its immediate friends, family and what ever stops it from discovering from within its own individuality.

This individual could have had to have a double life, one within the consensus society for survival necessity, doing some mundane work for survival needs and when alone it would desire to know its own individuality and follow its own natural laws, beliefs, values, needs , customs and taboos from society.

What you described is a specific archetype that is linked to the first stage of the individuated condition. Although of course it's possible for a soul at this stage to have a job it doesn't resonate with.

There is a deep unconscious fear that it could to be swallowed back by the consensus society if it does not break away from it, until it understands and has the certainty that once out of the box, it could never go back. Having deep unconscious fears of loosing the values and self identity it has gained up to now.
Going into 3rd individuated it would want to integrate its own individual ideas, values, beliefs and natural laws, back into the society so as to share and give of itself, fearless of it being drawn back into the box, for it knows that once out its out.
blessings
Rita

And your second post:

QuoteHi Ari, Hi all,

Pluto in the 2nd house going into 3rd stage consensus,

This individual in prior lives has been developing its self-reliance and self sustenance. It comes into this life knowing how to sustain itself on the emotional and physical plane as in prior life times it has already been learning to identify its personal values and needs. These values and needs were developed as a result of  its desires to remain rooted (2nd house) in itself. This way it has experienced its own essence regardless of what went around it or in the world.

Excellent. Particularly important for a soul in the 2nd individuated stage.

In other prior life times it has already learned to identify its need for material wealth as a mean of survival and as a mean of societal acceptance and power. Also it learned that material wealth does not bring any physical security  nor emotional security because it has already in the past had to deal with the unconscious fear of loss ( Pluto 2 house ), not having enough material wealth. Wealth and material goods imply power and it may, in prior lives, have been too lazy to create its own material wealth, having relationships in which it  manipulated other people´s money or resources for its own profit.

As a result of this the deep unconscious fear of the loss of its material wealth and resources it has the need to hoard its material wealth. Through other people or outside forces confrontations will occur so that it stops hoarding this material wealth and starts sharing it with others.( PPP 8th house ).

This is not necessarily true. We cannot know at this point if hording is a dynamic within this soul.

Along many life times It had to rebuild  itself for its own preservation with stronger self-reliance in order to enforce upon it a re-evaluation of its value system. Starting from scratch, in order to enforce lessons of self-reliance with a different value system  that is less attached to material wealth (consensus towards individuated ) and accepting a simpler, poorer existence. This in which it seeks more like minded people who have similar values, beliefs or ideologies that achieved this by either going to live in communities of small groups, working on self beliefs and rebelling against everything that has different emotional and financial values than itself or its group. It shed along the way the family ideologies, values and beliefs, becoming a total rebel and anarchist towards the people who  raised it and the society it was inserted.

With  PPP in the 8th house the evolutionary intent will lead it to have  intense internal and external confrontations. These confrontations will show it its limitations implied in its value systems, how it relates to itself and how it identifies with its own reality.( Pluto 2nd house ).

Excellent. That is the bottom line.

Forcing upon it the realization of deeper levels of reality demonstrating to it that there is more to life than material wealth and all the bondage it entails.

Actually at this stage, since the soul is moving into the third stage there would be more empowerment regarding money: the use of it, how it is used, its necessity and the usefulness of it etc. In the second stage that's the archetype of not being able to move forward yet with one's individuality. Relative to a 2nd house Pluto it's inwardly not feeling the inner resources and capacity to establish one's individuality in the world. It would not be uncommon for a soul with this signature to have gotten very use to not having very much at all in terms of material wealth.

It will no longer have to keep in secrecy its material wealth for fear of loosing or being betrayed by the other(s) because it has understood that to have and not to share with others does not bring it security or happiness. ( PPP 8th house )

It desperately wanted to find its essence through deep introspection , its personal values and what society it would like to live in. Once it found these belief systems that fit its personality it did not know how to express them towards the out side world or the society keeping itself isolated and withdrawn. Integrating the PPP 8th house, It will focus its attention(2nd stage individuated going onto 3rd stage individuated )in opening up, trying to find out new ideologies, secret societies and universal truths, merging it self and its resources with others.

Progressively less interesting in things like secret societies since it's moving into the 3rd stage"¦

As a result of this it is allowing itself for a broader and deepening of its individuating commitment. Not only but it will also more readily share its individualistic resources with others rather than keeping them isolated and restrictedly for itself.

That's a key point. The sharing/releasing of its inner resources is the main theme here.

As a result of sharing it self with others that have like minded values, a metamorphosis occurs in which its past limitations are overcome and it has expanded its values, beliefs and self reliance.
Blessings
Rita

Excellent ea work Rita! I can see great improvement from one post to the next. I feel in your 2nd post you really touched upon the core themes of Pluto.

Remember that Pluto symbolizes the dichotomy between holding onto fixed patters that are linked to the security of the past on the one hand, and on the other letting go and choosing growth. Resistance or cooperation with evolution. With Pluto in the 2nd house, a core fear is not being able to sustain one's most important resources. This links with a loss of self esteem and where self esteem is linked to ephemeral conditions and the maintenance of them. The evolutionary journey of a 2nd house Pluto takes a soul deeper into itself, to realize the resources that are inherent from within, not from without.

That can be scary then for any soul to get out of its comfort zone and share itself in ways that are unfamiliar. So if you wish I invite you to take some time to reflect further on this question: Why would any soul with Pluto in the 2nd house (in general, relevant to any ea stage) remain stubbornly fixed in some form of isolation and not share it's inner wealth with the world?

With love,
Ari Moshe

Hi Tory, I have posted both of your posts.

Quote
Hi Ari,
My follow on post is below in bold.
LOVE

In the second house (Fixed, Yin, Earth) the energy by nature turns inward to find the inner resources and inner strength required to sustain that which has been birthed, given form (in the first house). A soul with Pluto in the second house, over lifetimes has been focused on developing this inner sustenance, inner strength/self-reliance fundamental to survival in this life form. The ultimate sense is that outer form is a reflection of the inner processes at work therefore survival and the ability to sustain is determined first by constructing a real sense of inner security.

Inner security ties in with our self image, personal worth, and our values. What we value is key to what we wish to manifest. The soul with Pluto in the second is really focused on exactly what it values and what it is wanting to manifest into existence, and how?. As previously mentioned, Taurus correlates with biological survival and there may likely have been lifetimes of focusing on just that, with the fixed nature of this signature implying a «hanging on for dear life» to what works (inwardly and outwardly) which may manifest as great strength or great weakness depending on the expression and the situation. Of course the more we cling to an idea/l, person or thing (let's take the buying power of money as an example) as that which gives us ultimate meaning (instead of understanding that real power and freedom can only come when we let go, and let God/Goddess) the more the second house Pluto will be forcing itself to deal with it's 8th house polarity lesson and ultimately will have to face the death (shock and loss) and re-birth of that it «held so dear».

All beautifully said

Having experienced the sense of extreme cultural alienation associated with 2nd stage individuated, the soul transitioning into the 3rd stage individuated is now at the point where his individuated expression of his own personal truths is strong and anchored enabling him to go back into society and share that truth/wisdom/understanding/gift with others, fully in the societal context, and in a way that inspires and leads others forward.

Growing up in the conservative baptist south of the US, this soul would have felt completely at odds with the church and its fear-based dogma, indeed society at large. (Having never lived in the US i don't have a proper understanding of southern US culture but i'm assuming bible-bashing ultra-conservative)

This is a great context for a 2nd house Pluto to do his evolutionary thing, growing up in a context of extreme conservative fear-based values forces one to search for truth in a world where seemingly (at first glance) there is none. This forces the soul back in on himself and demands much inner courage, strength and determination to individuate in this context. This process can also be considered as a kind of survival process, when feeling so at odds with society living ones truth is literally a «live or die» of the self, nourishing the inner light we know to be true despite all the outer signals suggesting the opposite, having the faith to keep the inner light burning.


And your second post:

QuoteDear Ari, Dear others on the thread,

Adding on to my previous posts:

The limitations implied by the second house Pluto placement may present themselves differently, either as lack of material resources or conversely, the soul can be born into great wealth with extremely limited emotional support/nourishment from the parents and family. However the limitations manifest, the second house Pluto soul's work is on developing the inner resources required to self sustain and indeed thrive through the limitations. How we are able to do that depends on how we give meaning to our experiences, our sense of meaning in life is wholly determined by our values, and our values begin at home, starting with how we relate to our ourselves (and then by consequence, others). With a second house Pluto (fixed, yin, earth) would the tendancy too easily be to stagnate, cristallize?, slow to move and slow to change, in which case the limitations could be one's own limited values triggering the ppp in the 8th as necessary inner or outer confrontations forcing re-evaluation, transformation, metamorphosis and moving into 3rd stage individuated, potentially a merging with new value systems or people, a sharing of the new inner/outer resources.

Yes absolutely. Depletion is also a good word here. 2nd house which is a natural earth archetype symbolizes an energy that is in balance and in flow. The 8th house polarity implies the necessity for decomposition. When the soul becomes overly fixed and does not let go, embrace change, it creates a situation of stagnation which ultimately leads to a depletion, a wasting of resources - inner and outer. This ultimately has a deep effect on the soul's inner relationship to itself; its self esteem.

Values also relate to one's intrinsic sexual nature, sexual values and again moving into the 3rd stage individuated, one can imagine a sexual merging/union with a person or people that exemplify that which we are seeking or wanting to share. In the context of conservative Baptist southern culture it would not be a surprise if the church and the society's rigidly conservative judgements and distortions regarding sexuality represent the limitations which the soul is working to move beyond.

Yes that is a possibility. My sense is we'd have to see Saturn/Capricorn involved in some way to come to that conclusion.

Much Light to you all

Excellent ea analysis Tory. Everything you wrote speaks clearly to the soul psychology of Pluto in the 2nd at this ea stage.
With love,
Ari Moshe

Hi Kora,

QuoteHi Ari and Everyone,

I found this exercise very challenging and had to work with it quite a bit before I could get any ideas to flow!!!  Feedback is very welcome.

Pluto in 2nd, 2nd stage individuated transitioning to 3rd, male born south US conservative Baptist:

This soul in past lifetimes has been focused in a self reflective manner on inner identification of feelings, values and resources for survival and self sustainance learning how to meet his own needs independent of others.  Whereas at the original impulse the soul was focused externally on self discovery via instinctual action now there is a withdrawal in to the self.  The individual is taking what was previously learned and rooting and grounding it self reflectively defining his own values covering everything from money and possessions to personal attributes and talents to self worth.  He has a heightened sensibility to beauty, harmony, the physical body, form and sensuality. 

Everything is true but that last statement which is not necessarily true. In fact many 2nd house Pluto folks may be totally out of touch with such things.

He has high sexual needs instinctual to survival of the species.  He has been working on these issues to the point where he has reached a certain level of comfort with being alienated from the consensus and isolated and now has less need to act in a rebellious fashion.  He may have reached a certain level of comfort with being able to independently survive on his own skills or talents and with living a free spirited authentic life style reflective of these values.  Because Pluto is in the 2nd he will have some form of "frog in the well" syndrome meaning that due to egoic insecurity he will be locked in to his isolated perspectives due to having become lazy or too comfortable thus he has a certain inertia where he resists further evolution.   Perhaps he has chosen this repressive religious family because he still has certain imbalances related to sexual repression or manipulative narcissism or gender inequality or prejudice or basking in his comfortable lifestyle he may simply not want to do the work of taking his skills to a place where he is giving back to the larger world. 

In any case he will be faced with confrontations, betrayals or crises which force him to look at his limits and to recognize that he has a need to merge his resources with another someone or something more powerful outside of himself.    This is his soul intent for this life (ppp 8th)....through this kind of merging and surrender to recognizing he cannot independently meet all of his own needs and commiting to the other there will be a complete metamorphosis of his self identity.   If he is successful in this intent he will truly know and face the fact that he needs others and is not an island in to himself, he will share his values and resources in ways that have value and meaning for others and he will learn that he can totally commit to the other without losing balance within himself....(co-dependency is not what he is going for....) He will successfully reach 3rd individuated when he is able to transcend his isolated lifestyle and re-emerge back in to the larger culture in such a way that he contributes to the betterment of others without losing his authentic values...and he is able to create work for himself that is his authentic work.

All true. To deepen that, what would be the Pluto fear of evolving into this next evolutionary stage? Why stay in the well?

Perhaps this particular male is an artist who comfortably lives a life style where he feels free to express his sexuality as he chooses without guilt and in ways that do not harm or disrespect others...he might engage in tantra or have a sexual relationship with a partner of another race or choose to cohabitate with a partner making a mutually agreeable commitment to the relationship yet choose not to marry.....or perhaps he chose his repressive family of origin because he still has imbalances to work out around his sexuality....maybe he was in to prostitution either using others or being used in the past and now he attracts a powerful partner who challenges his sexual attitudes forcing him to confront his limits and to make necessary changes regarding feelings and values that are more respectful to the other.  Perhaps he has become very skilled with his art and has achieved some recognition from others.  He may have achieved a high sense of self worth around his talents and ability to be a free spirit and to live authentically producing art that reflects his values about life....yet he might have become too comfortable with some form of inertia or crystalization setting in and become lazy....the result is that his work becomes less interesting, others don't support him financially and he is forced to look at how he has cut himself off from the outside influences that could provide the stimulus he needs to go deeper in his work....or he might attract a more cataclysmic betrayal from an art critic who he has trusted in the past who tears his work apart and exhaults the work of others who are more gifted. 

These are all insightful and possible correlations for this signature. Except for the Tantra piece.

Whatever the circumstance this man will have to confront the fact that his isolation and inertia stiffles his evolution and  that in order to move forward he will have to get out of himself and merge with something or someone more powerful....perhaps he will apprentice with a gifted mentor or enter a new program of study to expand his abilities....whatever he chooses he must make a conscious commitment to the other person or situation and confront his egoic fears around losing his long fought for isolated self sustaining identity....in the process he becomes a different person.  One scenario of how this could play out for this man would be that he opens up a whole new world of contacts because his work has totally changed in to a unique new art expression with expanded renewed appeal.....this could bring him an offer to link up with an art school where he becomes a student consultant. He is then in a role where he works with other students who want to apprentice with him so they can to learn ways of discovering their own unique artistic creations....in this way he would have successfully transitioned to third stage individuated because he is now giving back to the larger culture yet retains his own authentic values.  He is able to once again support himself through his authentic work.

This too is a specific scenario that is possible. For apprenticeship and work that involves art, as you have been discussing it, we'd be looking at a Virgo/6th house theme and something else that involves making money through art. Pluto in the 2nd house alone does not imply making money through art.

Excellent ea work Kora. Thank you for your efforts in this. I feel you understand this signature and have accurately applied Pluto in the 2nd to this particular ea stage. If you wish, you may examine this soul psychology a bit further as per my question to you above.
With love,
Ari Moshe

Hi Gray,

QuoteHi Ari and Group,

With a second house Pluto and entering the third stage of the Individuated state this lifetime, this Soul's emphasis on survival, self-reliance, and self-sufficiency will come through an identification with his Self as the resource that will lead to his own sustenance.  The current phase of development for this Soul being a transition into the third stage of the Individuated means that he will see himself in contrast to the consensus culture surrounding him, and will maintain a self-reliance on his own self-vision in order to feel secure in an environment that he will come to learn through his development is filled with consensus values that are in contrast to the values he knows from within himself.

He will be experienced in the second stage of Individuation lessons involving a detached viewpoint upon consensus reality and it's negative consequences such as oppression;  instead of being filled with anger and a pessimistic feeling of futility in making effort to transform consensus reality as is more typical in the second stage of Individuation, transitioning into the third stage this lifetime means that this soul feels secure enough to integrate his gifts and resources into society without the fear of losing himself into the consensus value system, thereby making the effort to transform consensus reality through his effort.

However, having a second house Pluto also means that along with his strong sense of self, self-reliance, and self-sufficiency comes a vision of himself that is ultimately limited. 
The fixed nature of the Taurus archetype in relation to the second house can mean that an overreliance on this limited vision of self, a stubborn refusal to open up and acknowledge other value systems, could lead to a state of inertia.  The third substage of Individuated would mean this soul has strongly developed abilities that have the potential to be integrated and implemented into the world surrounding him, however if he is overly defensive about his values and resources he could make his integration into society more difficult. 

Excellent.

In addition, if he rests on his laurels, so to speak, the lazy aspect of the Taurus archetype could also occur and feed into greater inertia.

The risk of inertia that can come from a second house Pluto is often tested and stirred up through internal and external confrontations with others.  Being in the Individuated stage means that this will certainly be occurring in a very direct way.  For example, for this specific soul growing up in a Southern USA Baptist culture will be an early testing ground of these types of confrontations.  Ultimately, however, being in the third substage of Individuated adds extra emphasis to the second house Pluto lesson of learning to merge with others and link with the needs of the society surrounding him in a way that can be compatible with the value systems surrounding him in society.   Not compatible in a sense of assimilating his value system into consensus values, but instead meaning compatible in the sense of being able to act from his contrasting value system in a way that allows him to more successfully interact with others in society and help transform consensus reality as a result. Through confrontations he feels his own vision and values uprising from within in relation to the Southern Baptist and greater USA culture surrounding him, as well as gaining greater focus on his own values through direct confrontations coming from other people in his environment, he will begin a process of discovering the limitations of his strongly ingrained value system. 

He will use the positive side of detachment as an Individuated process of discovering the relative nature of beliefs and values in different cultures, and come to see himself as a member of a greater global community more so than the limited Southern USA Baptist culture of his birth.

Everything you are saying is true however the frequent use of the word "vision" is not entirely accurate for this signature alone. Vision correlates to the function of intuition and higher perspective which is Sag.

The fixed nature of the Taurus archetype along with the nature of the Individuated stage, especially the second substage this soul would be moving away from, could influence him to go into isolation and a defiant place of protection of the values he holds dear to himself, becoming even angry against the consensus culture confronting his sense of values. 

However, moving into the third substage of Individuated goes along with the movement to the Pluto polarity point of the 8th house in the sense that his true evolutionary path will involve finding a way to integrate his values and resources into the society surrounding him instead of choosing to be isolated away from it.  This theme of lessons from merging will repeatedly occur in his lifetime, at times through crises, forcing him to confront the issue of merging himself and his resources back into a society that has a consensus culture that has a dominant value system in contrast to his own value system.  The Individuated phase of development reflects a process of expanding his consciousness ultimately, after working his way through the various confrontations and crises he will experience with his self-reliant value system.

Excellent - that is a bottom line for this soul.

Through his lessons of learning how to merge his resources with others, he will also gain the capacity to show others how to do the same, helping others along with their own personal individuation process as he does the same for himself.  In particular importance will be the lesson of how he can merge with others or other value systems without becoming dependent upon what he is merging with.  In this way the second house Pluto will help him identify his self as the resource creating his self-sustainment, instead of losing his sense of self into the value systems and people he feels drawn to in  his process of individuation.  In the end, he will experience a transformation that adds to the strong value system he has brought into this lifetime, so that his own process of self-reliance will continue in a manner that transfigures the existing limitations of his value system he discovers through all of his confrontations.  In this way, he will also be able to help others transform themselves, and he will also have the potential ability to help transform the very nature of consensus reality itself.

A catalyst for his transformative experiences will be a tendency to repeatedly attract powerful "others" into his life, others who hold a strong 8th House ability to help him reveal the source of his own limitations.  These 8th House type of relationships will help propel him toward the development of his Pluto polarity point through giving him greater clarity into the manifestations of his self-reliant value system into society as well as the reasons "why" behind his value system, the roots of it.  These figures can come in many forms, from teachers to elders to family members to neighbors to co-workers to peers to friends to students and so on.  These figures at times could directly question or confront his value system, or at other times he could learn from the impact of his value system upon these figures.

An additional type of powerful 8th house relationship that will be part of his Pluto polarity development will come through his strong sexual nature that reflects a second house Pluto.  Jeff Green in the first Pluto book described second house Pluto people as having an intense need for sexual release that will lead to the importance of masturbation to help release their sexuality and ground their beings, even in times when they are engaging in a sexual relationship with a partner.  His strong sexual nature will help magnetize intense sexual relationships that deeply stir lessons of merging with others as well as deeply penetrate to the core of the source of his value system.  For example, if he is sexually manipulative to prove his own power he will ultimately face confrontations or crises revealing this to himself.  These intense sexual relationships can also expose the limitations of his value system.  For example, he could be drawn into sexual relationships that cross the taboo lines drawn by his Southern USA Baptist culture origins, and through the experience of testing these taboos he will gain a greater sense of his own true value system versus the one imposed upon him by his surrounding society.  In the most basic sense, he could at times draw a sexual partner to himself who comes from a dramatically different background and cultural value system then he has come from, and through the process of attempting to relate as well as the deep energetic mergings of his sexuality with them, he will begin to transform the limitations of his own value system.

The 8th House polarity point of these relationships, as well as the other transformative events and experiences he will experience, sometimes of a very difficult nature, will be to at times force him to examine the internal underpinnings behind the motivational patterns of his life.  He will come to examine the why behind his resources and personal values, the why behind his personal dynamics that ultimately create the life events he experiences.  While these events could feel cataclysmic at times, they will serve the purpose of helping him transform his behavior patterns into new ways of relating to himself, relating to others, and relating to reality- the total of reality as well as the consensus reality he has struggled against in the past.  Through the process of discovering "why" he has acted in a limited manner,  he will more easily be able to redefine his values in order to experience greater growth, and he will begin to consciously choose to unite with specific activities and individuals that will facilitate the transformation of his limited value system.  Most effective for this process will be 8th House individuals who help him continue to develop his reliance upon  himself, instead of becoming dependent upon their relationship.

As a result of all of his own personal mutations and growth, he will gain a strong capacity to also help focus other people on the "why" behind their own self-imposed limitations, and he will gain a greater ability to help transform others around him through suggesting an appropriate and effective method for their transformation.  In this way he will have an even greater ability to transform the wider societal reality he finds himself within.  Transitioning into the third substage of being Individuated gives him the powerful opportunity to help transform consensus institutions and systems from within, through finding a way to integrate his own gifts and resources into society, help influence the self-transformation of others around him, and ultimately make very direct transformational effort by drawing from his own resources. His strong sense of self-reliance and self-resources will prevent him from being manipulated by societal power brokers or the danger of losing himself and his sense of values through his 8th house merging;  this powerful ability will have been earned through all of his trials and tribulations that led to this transformed pattern of behavior.  Up until this ultimate transformation occurs, however, there could be more of a tendency for this Soul to attempt to manipulate power, be defensive or stubborn with regard to his value system, or attempt to possess what he feels is his to own.  However, through the process of 8th house encounters with others as well as intense 8th house events, he will gain the ability to understand the source of his previous limiting values and make the necessary changes to transform.

in gratitude to all of your effort,
Gray

Excellent ea analysis Gray. Thank you for your post. I recommend for everyone here to read what Gray has wrote as I feel it is very thorough and exemplifies the core dynamics very well.

Hi Emily,

QuoteHi - Here is my attempt at Pluto in the 2nd, third stage Individuated:

Pluto in the second souls have been learning the lessons of self-reliance and self-sufficiency.  They are used to withdrawing into themselves to discover the essence of who they are, and what their values and needs are.  In the individuated state they will be identifying themselves as a source of sustainment; learning how to take care of themselves through their own talent and efforts. 

Excellent

In the third subdivision of the individuated state I think this indicates a situation where the soul is attempting to take its own unique talent out into the world in a productive way, without losing its sense of self.  This is a point of great potential to share what one has with others.  This person could have very unique, progressive talents.  It could be challenging for this soul to bring itself out into the world in this way - but I think easier than in the 1st or 2nd subdivision where the emphasis is on isolation from society. 

Yes that is true, and at this juncture, since the soul is transitioning into the third individuated stage, it would certainly be overcoming a core resistance to moving forward in this world and out of its protection from society.

The soul would also attract people and experiences which draw it out of itself in an effort to grow past any limitations it has created for itself by being so withdrawn.

Peace,u
Emily

What you wrote is accurate and true for the nature of this signature. Thank you for your efforts Emily and for offering what you have. If you wish, here is a question for you to address further: What would be the general reason, from the point of view of the separating desires of the soul, for this soul's resistance to moving forward in the world and staying in some sort of 2nd house isolation. What is the core unconscious fear implied in this signature?
With love,
Ari Moshe

Thanks so much Ari for your feedback, yes Gray's post is a very complete analysis, a very good reference.
Much love
Tory

Hi Ari and all,

Since we seem to be moving on I hope it's ok that I post what I have been able to write so far.. it's not complete, but any feedback is greatly appreciated.
Haven't compared with what others have posted, so it may be redundant  :)


Pluto in 2nd house, transition into 3rd substage of individuated

Generally, with Pluto in 2nd house, a person has had a series of lifetimes where the Soul has desired to subjectively identify its own resources and values to sustain themselves on the physical and emotional plane. Why? The Soul has desired to look within and consolidate the essence of what is "me" contrasted to the changing scenery around them; to "own" a certain toolbox, where the tools in this box is either internal (such as gifts, talents, capacity etc) or external (such as material).
In terms of archetypes what you have is the Taurus (2nd House) (Fixed and Yin)/ Scorpio (Pluto) (Fixed and Yin) synthesis. Thus, even though PPP is in the 8th House, you already have an influence of the Scorpio archetype just because of Pluto. Thus, we have had a series of lives with an enormous focus of energy inwards. Why? The Soul has desired to discover its own values and needs, which in turn will have led to the development of of certain "tools". These tools, over many lives, have proven to be useful for the Soul, but because of this they have also become a limitation, because of the lack of growth.
The unconscious security linked with these tools has also created resistance to other points of view.

A person in transition into 3rd substage of individuated will come from a series of lives (the amount of lives will of course depend on the evolutionary pace of the Soul) where it has been de-conditioning itself from the consensus way of thinking. In the 2nd substage it has rebelled and progressively "cleansed" itself from all external imprints of the consensus world in order to arrive at what is uniquely inherent to the Soul. The word revolution when applied to the individuation process implies to me both a dramatic change in perspective as well as circling a topic from different vantage points so as to become more objective. In the end of the 2nd substage we would find a true individual who is objectively able to view the phenomenal reality that they live in. As they start to make a transition into the 3rd substage, they will now have to figure out what area (and how to apply to that area) their unique way of orientation to the phenomenal reality.

So, with Pluto in the 2nd house, the Soul has had a series of lives conditioned by the late part of the 2nd substage, where it has focused (Pluto) inwards to identify that which is their own (2nd house), contrasted to the changing scenery around them. At certain junctures the individual has discovered new ways of relating to him/her self (probably through cataclysmic events unless other mitigating factors): some part of their mental make-up may have been removed through some internal or external schock, a part of them that were not really inherent to themselves (2nd substage). A person in the individuated stage, I would think, will always have an added layer of exploration of the mind and thought processes, regardless of horoscope. My guess is also that during the 2nd substage of individuated the fear of the consensus has led the way to rebellion, which has led to experimenting with new ideas and new ways of relating to one self. With pluto in the 2nd house, these new ideas and ways of relating to our self has then been solidified and consolidated. The problem is that with all of this fixed focus (Pluto, 2nd house, and Uranus/Aquarius) there has probably been on a repetitive basis resistance to new ways of thinking (Pluto in the 2nd house) and thus some sort of limitation in how they define themselves and how they see themselves in relation to others. (Because I lack the knowledge of how long this person has been in the 2nd substage vs. how long we can assume the 2nd house Pluto, I have assumed that at least the later part of being in the 2nd substage has coincided with Pluto in the 2nd house). Maybe this would translate into a person who, once they find a group of like-minded, stays with this group for a long time and as long as the groups ideas and values don't change too much. I could also see a person who acts like a group of one, from time to time. Unless, the Sn and it's rulers are strongly mutable (signs and houses), evolution will probably have been fairly cataclysmic.

In this life, the intention from the Soul is to expand its horizon via forming  relationships to other(s) and/or to merge with others so they can open up to new ways of thinking or how to apply their existing resources to in the world. The limitation in the way they define themselves and others needs to be transformed. A person in transition to 3rd substage probably have to access its creative side (Leo) in order to find ways to integrate their unique perspective into society.

The Soul may have chosen to be born into a religious surrounding in this life in order to force the frog out of the well. Either the person will move (and movement tends to evoke gaining new perspectives) or the person will stay and thus being forced to link his abilities to the society in which he lies; to find a way to integrate its unique talent into the consensus or finding ways to expand the perspective of the consensus in a non-threatening way. Either way, evolution may then occur. Of course the person could also revert to being a rebellion and perhaps finding a few likeminded.

(This is what I have so far).

All the best,
Henrik

Hi Ari,
Thank you for your comment and i am certainly going to try and answer your question.
blessings
Rita

Hi Ari and Everyone,

Thank you so much for your feedback Ari.  I have a question that I have some confusion about and would like to respond further to your question Ari regarding why this soul would fear moving on to the next stage.  I will respond from my thoughts before looking too much at what others have said so I can see if I'm on the right track or whether there is something big I am missing...

Quote

I am wondering why tantra would be an inappropriate association here.  I'm thinking that the reason is that tantra would be more associated with a 12th house archetypal involvement or with someone in a spiritual stage of evolution because tantric energies are about connecting with spirit or source through sexuality.  My thinking in making this association for this signature was because of the taurus/scorpio axis and the fact that sexuality is one of the emphasized expressions in that one loses oneself in merging with another....can you or anyone else elaborate?

Quote[/quote

Fears that this individual would have moving to the next stage would be associated with the fact that the soul has been working for lifetimes regarding self security around surviving and sustaining independence free from needing others....he has reached a certain level of comfort around his ability to survive on his own resources which are based on what he values....not what others are telling him he should value....In his consensus Baptist surroundings he would face severe resistance from status quo....a total devaluing of what he has to offer.  Since this was the family he born in to he likely has imprints that tell him that if he reaches out with his skills they will not be valued in the larger world....this would be a blow to his self esteem which he has worked hard to establish and he would be asking himself....why should I give this up...these people don't care about me and I already have a small support system that recognizes that I'm worth something....I don't need anyone else.....The imprints that he has from this family may be still operating as blind spots within him.....he has not allowed in resources from a larger world than this which might show him that in fact there is a world out there that would value what he has to offer.  To confront this makes him uncomfortable.....he likes to be comfortable and he likes to feel good....If he is still in the well and viewing the world out there as convervative southern Baptist he could fear for his financial survival....in his mind  he would be reluctant to offer his talents and values because he would fear that others would not support him financially for his skills and he would have to jeopardize his values by losing his freedom and independence and take a job that does not support his values in order to pay bills.  The loss of freedom and individuality is a huge fear....he fears being swallowed up by something he cannot control, his whole identity would be dissolved and he would be blind as to any positive possibilites beyond this.  Taurus being very self directed energy would fear being used up and depleted....it takes effort to relate to other people....as it is, he is the center of his own universe, king of his mountain (or well), he feels a sense of power and control over his protected universe....if he relates to a larger world than himself or begins to recognize that there is a greater and more powerful world out there beyond him and beyond southern Baptist convervative consciousness he is still going to be afraid to move out of the well because leaving the well forces him to be vulnerable, he is not in control anymore, he has to reconsider what his values are all over again and he fears he will lose everything he has fought so hard to gain and will disappear or be swallowed up.....these processes on the deepest level are very unconscious....to grow he has to begin to recognize what he doesn't already know and he resists the insecurity of not being in control.  Therefore he will face whatever confrontations or circumstances are necessary to move him out of the well.  He has to learn from a power outside of himself (not southern conservative baptist) that he can survive and flourish in a new identity/form merged with other where he is both able to receive what is valuable to him as well as give of his own unique and hard earned gifts to others who will value them.  He has to be able to care for others in the process....to recognize that making effort in behalf of another is a valuable pursuit and when done in the right spirit actually replenishes him....as opposed to depleting him.....that will bring him back to feeling good and he loves to feel good.  

Please let me know if this addresses the question and any further thoughts you Ari or anyone else may have.

Bessings to All,
Kora

Hi,

Not sure what I did in my above response to come out with that format!   I was trying to quote from my previous post that Ari responded to regarding his comment on tantra and the question he posed.  Anyway my thoughts are all present (but the quotes are missing) so I hope it makes sense anyway and if doesn't let me know.

Kora

Hi Henrik

QuoteHi Ari and all,

Since we seem to be moving on I hope it's ok that I post what I have been able to write so far.. it's not complete, but any feedback is greatly appreciated.

You likely missed what I wrote above to you. I decided to respond to the posts because I knew that it would be some time till we all moved to the next step. So if you'd like to post more after this please feel free to do so.

Haven't compared with what others have posted, so it may be redundant 


Pluto in 2nd house, transition into 3rd substage of individuated

Generally, with Pluto in 2nd house, a person has had a series of lifetimes where the Soul has desired to subjectively identify its own resources and values to sustain themselves on the physical and emotional plane. Why? The Soul has desired to look within and consolidate the essence of what is "me" contrasted to the changing scenery around them; to "own" a certain toolbox, where the tools in this box is either internal (such as gifts, talents, capacity etc) or external (such as material).
In terms of archetypes what you have is the Taurus (2nd House) (Fixed and Yin)/ Scorpio (Pluto) (Fixed and Yin) synthesis. Thus, even though PPP is in the 8th House, you already have an influence of the Scorpio archetype just because of Pluto. Thus, we have had a series of lives with an enormous focus of energy inwards. Why? The Soul has desired to discover its own values and needs, which in turn will have led to the development of of certain "tools". These tools, over many lives, have proven to be useful for the Soul, but because of this they have also become a limitation, because of the lack of growth.

Well said

The unconscious security linked with these tools has also created resistance to other points of view.

A person in transition into 3rd substage of individuated will come from a series of lives (the amount of lives will of course depend on the evolutionary pace of the Soul) where it has been de-conditioning itself from the consensus way of thinking. In the 2nd substage it has rebelled and progressively "cleansed" itself from all external imprints of the consensus world in order to arrive at what is uniquely inherent to the Soul. The word revolution when applied to the individuation process implies to me both a dramatic change in perspective as well as circling a topic from different vantage points so as to become more objective. In the end of the 2nd substage we would find a true individual who is objectively able to view the phenomenal reality that they live in. As they start to make a transition into the 3rd substage, they will now have to figure out what area (and how to apply to that area) their unique way of orientation to the phenomenal reality.

So, with Pluto in the 2nd house, the Soul has had a series of lives conditioned by the late part of the 2nd substage, where it has focused (Pluto) inwards to identify that which is their own (2nd house), contrasted to the changing scenery around them. At certain junctures the individual has discovered new ways of relating to him/her self (probably through cataclysmic events unless other mitigating factors): some part of their mental make-up may have been removed through some internal or external schock, a part of them that were not really inherent to themselves (2nd substage). A person in the individuated stage, I would think, will always have an added layer of exploration of the mind and thought processes, regardless of horoscope.

My guess is also that during the 2nd substage of individuated the fear of the consensus has led the way to rebellion, which has led to experimenting with new ideas and new ways of relating to one self. With pluto in the 2nd house, these new ideas and ways of relating to our self has then been solidified and consolidated. The problem is that with all of this fixed focus (Pluto, 2nd house, and Uranus/Aquarius) there has probably been on a repetitive basis resistance to new ways of thinking (Pluto in the 2nd house) and thus some sort of limitation in how they define themselves and how they see themselves in relation to others.

Very astute correlation. This can be a real issue at this evolutionary stage because of how Aquarius, fixed, this stage is.

(Because I lack the knowledge of how long this person has been in the 2nd substage vs. how long we can assume the 2nd house Pluto, I have assumed that at least the later part of being in the 2nd substage has coincided with Pluto in the 2nd house).

That isn't the way to think of it. We cannot separate the two. Pluto in the 2nd house correlates to the bottom line evolutionary lessons that are relevant to this soul as it symbolizes the core kinds of unresolved desires this soul has had that has ultimately lead to this life. The evolutionary stage of any soul itself is determined by desire which always translates to choice making: the choice to resist or cooperate with evolution, which brings us back to Pluto.

Maybe this would translate into a person who, once they find a group of like-minded, stays with this group for a long time and as long as the groups ideas and values don't change too much. I could also see a person who acts like a group of one, from time to time. Unless, the Sn and it's rulers are strongly mutable (signs and houses), evolution will probably have been fairly cataclysmic.

We really can't know at this stage with the information given what kind of necessary circumstances would or would not affect evolution.

In this life, the intention from the Soul is to expand its horizon via forming  relationships to other(s) and/or to merge with others so they can open up to new ways of thinking or how to apply their existing resources to in the world. The limitation in the way they define themselves and others needs to be transformed. A person in transition to 3rd substage probably have to access its creative side (Leo) in order to find ways to integrate their unique perspective into society.

The Soul may have chosen to be born into a religious surrounding in this life in order to force the frog out of the well. Either the person will move (and movement tends to evoke gaining new perspectives) or the person will stay and thus being forced to link his abilities to the society in which he lies; to find a way to integrate its unique talent into the consensus or finding ways to expand the perspective of the consensus in a non-threatening way. Either way, evolution may then occur. Of course the person could also revert to being a rebellion and perhaps finding a few likeminded.

(This is what I have so far).

All the best,
Henrik

Great job Henrik, thank you for your efforts. Everything you wrote, except for where I offered corrections, is accurate. You have accurately applied Pluto to this particular stage of evolution and are definitely well equipped to add the next ea layers. But again if you wish to post more please feel free to do so.
With love,
Ari Moshe

Hi Kora,

QuoteI am wondering why tantra would be an inappropriate association here.  I'm thinking that the reason is that tantra would be more associated with a 12th house archetypal involvement or with someone in a spiritual stage of evolution because tantric energies are about connecting with spirit or source through sexuality.  My thinking in making this association for this signature was because of the taurus/scorpio axis and the fact that sexuality is one of the emphasized expressions in that one loses oneself in merging with another....can you or anyone else elaborate?

It's because of this soul's evolutionary condition. The emphasis within it's consciousness is in individuation. Actual tantra would be relevant in the spiritual stages. This doesn't mean the soul won't become interesting in tantra practices or classes/books of various kinds - tantra based practices and ideas are offered and relevant at many levels of consciousness. However the conscious spiritualization of consciousness through the vehicle of sexuality would not be applicable to this soul in the way I think you were describing it.

A second house Pluto will naturally have a very strong sexual desire nature - and will have an established way of relating to that sexual nature. That way will imply how the soul is familiar with itself, and thus implies a particular limitation - one that will come up through relating with others. So at this stage of evolution it's about the soul moving beyond any stagnant emotional/sexual dynamics that reflect the ways that it is overly familiar and fixed in relating to itself: limitations. This may mean becoming gradually more interested in exploring forms of sexuality that involve greater access to the feeling body, ways of accessing greater depth of intimacy and creating spaces within the sexual experience that allows for more sharing and emotional release to occur. All that might be very relevant to this soul as it is now ready to move out into the world in a new way - thus the evolutionary need to establish new ways to knowing itself and feeling centered in itself in the context of unfamiliar and new territory.

Kora, in your post, the last part that is shaded, is that your answer to my question regarding why the soul would fear moving to the next stage?
With love,
Ari Moshe

Hi Ari,

Thank you for your response to the Tantra question which helps to clarify how I'm thinking about this.  Yes, the shaded part is my response to your question about why the soul would fear moving on to the next stage...I was attempting to quote from your earlier response to my original post but somehow shaded my response and the actual quotes I intended didn't come through.  I am interested in hearing your comments about what I said and whether I am on the right track or any further questions to expand how I am thinking.  Once again, much gratitude to you for your efforts in guiding us through this!

Kora

Hi Kora,

QuoteFears that this individual would have moving to the next stage would be associated with the fact that the soul has been working for lifetimes regarding self security around surviving and sustaining independence free from needing others....he has reached a certain level of comfort around his ability to survive on his own resources which are based on what he values....not what others are telling him he should value....In his consensus Baptist surroundings he would face severe resistance from status quo....a total devaluing of what he has to offer.  Since this was the family he born in to he likely has imprints that tell him that if he reaches out with his skills they will not be valued in the larger world....this would be a blow to his self esteem which he has worked hard to establish and he would be asking himself....why should I give this up...these people don't care about me and I already have a small support system that recognizes that I'm worth something....I don't need anyone else.....
The imprints that he has from this family may be still operating as blind spots within him.....he has not allowed in resources from a larger world than this which might show him that in fact there is a world out there that would value what he has to offer. 

A lot of that is speculation, however you are right on in recognizing that, especially given the context of having grown up in the baptist south taking into account his ea stage, he has developed a core self reliance, a way of knowing himself rooted in protecting himself from the consensus world. So there would certainly be fears that this soul is working through around moving beyond that. When we speak about "imprints" we are referring to Saturn/Capricorn and we don't know much about that dynamic just yet.

To confront this makes him uncomfortable.....he likes to be comfortable and he likes to feel good....If he is still in the well and viewing the world out there as convervative southern Baptist he could fear for his financial survival....in his mind  he would be reluctant to offer his talents and values because he would fear that others would not support him financially for his skills and he would have to jeopardize his values by losing his freedom and independence and take a job that does not support his values in order to pay bills. 

The loss of freedom and individuality is a huge fear....he fears being swallowed up by something he cannot control, his whole identity would be dissolved and he would be blind as to any positive possibilites beyond this.  Taurus being very self directed energy would fear being used up and depleted....it takes effort to relate to other people....as it is, he is the center of his own universe, king of his mountain (or well), he feels a sense of power and control over his protected universe....if he relates to a larger world than himself or begins to recognize that there is a greater and more powerful world out there beyond him and beyond southern Baptist convervative consciousness he is still going to be afraid to move out of the well because

This next line is key:

leaving the well forces him to be vulnerable, he is not in control anymore, he has to reconsider what his values are all over again and he fears he will lose everything he has fought so hard to gain and will disappear or be swallowed up.....these processes on the deepest level are very unconscious....to grow he has to begin to recognize what he doesn't already know and he resists the insecurity of not being in control. 

Yes. He necessarily is faced with the opportunity to learn more about who he is; his inherent worth which defacto means letting go of the old self image that simultaneously felt safe because it has protected him from the larger world, but also diminished and limited of his self worth and inherent potential. The frog in the well often SEEMS totally fine, "everything is really great down here. I got everything I need." Taurus will do that. However when we speak about the soul psychology of Pluto in the 2nd, within there can be a deeply brooding sense of being deeply out of touch from one's core, which as we know, is actually the Soul itself.

Therefore he will face whatever confrontations or circumstances are necessary to move him out of the well.  He has to learn from a power outside of himself (not southern conservative baptist) that he can survive and flourish in a new identity/form merged with other where he is both able to receive what is valuable to him as well as give of his own unique and hard earned gifts to others who will value them.  He has to be able to care for others in the process....to recognize that making effort in behalf of another is a valuable pursuit and when done in the right spirit actually replenishes him....as opposed to depleting him.....that will bring him back to feeling good and he loves to feel good. 

Please let me know if this addresses the question and any further thoughts you Ari or anyone else may have.

Bessings to All,
Kora

I feel you got it Kora.
With love,
Ari Moshe

Hi Ari,

Question

Why would a soul in the second house in general, relevant to any ea stage remain stubbornly fixed in some form of isolation and not share its inner wealth with the world?

Its reluctance towards change  is due to the 2nd house being a fixed sign Taurus, just the archetype in itself implies the need to internalize all that was learnt in Aries to feel secure. Any change will cause deep unconscious insecurities (Pluto),  refusing to take action towards any change, this can be seen as the analogy " of the frog in the well",in other words it can see a small piece of the sky and believe that it is the whole universe.
2nd house Pluto/ Taurus, being feminine and Yin correlates to how it is inwardly listening to it self, by listening to it self it will know what are its deepest needs for survival,  and it is these values and needs that it has that gives meaning and importance to its life.
People with Pluto 2nd house / Taurus have a limited knowledge about itself and life in general, because this limited vision is familiar and secure. This sense of security from the past that is so safe  can make it lazy and have the tendency to accommodate it self to an easy life, in which it is simply too lazy and will use others for its sustenance , belief system and values. Living off others has worked in prior lives, change ( Pluto ) will be resisted, it will resist and choose to remain in the well with its limited view of the world, than to jump out of the well and discover for itself its own capabilities, self reliance and sustenance.
The evolutionary intent through the PPP 8th house will force it to jump out of the well, due to internal and external confrontations that it will have with others, these confrontations will show it how its beliefs and values are limited and why it is relating to itself the way it does and why it has the values it has. (PPP 8th house ) It will for evolution, continue to purge all its interior limitations that prevent growth and by forming relations with others so as to analyze itself and others through psycho-analysis , or psychology, so as to understand and overcome its limitations and become aware of its own and others motivations and intentions. ( PPP 8th house )It will learn to merge itself, its material wealth and values with others so that it can receive from the others what is does not have and at the same time give to the others what the others do not have.
Through metamorphosing ( Scorpio/ 8th house), its values and inner relationship will be transmitted to higher levels of expression and it looses the fear and need to remain so rooted in its ideas, being willing to share its inner wealth with the world.
Blessings
Rita

Hi Ari,

Thanks so much for your feedback and comments.

Love and Blessings,
Kora

Hi Rita,

QuoteHi Ari,

Question

Why would a soul in the second house in general, relevant to any ea stage remain stubbornly fixed in some form of isolation and not share its inner wealth with the world?

Its reluctance towards change  is due to the 2nd house being a fixed sign Taurus, just the archetype in itself implies the need to internalize all that was learnt in Aries to feel secure. Any change will cause deep unconscious insecurities (Pluto),  refusing to take action towards any change, this can be seen as the analogy " of the frog in the well",in other words it can see a small piece of the sky and believe that it is the whole universe.

2nd house Pluto/ Taurus, being feminine and Yin correlates to how it is inwardly listening to it self, by listening to it self it will know what are its deepest needs for survival,  and it is these values and needs that it has that gives meaning and importance to its life.

People with Pluto 2nd house / Taurus have a limited knowledge about itself and life in general, because this limited vision is familiar and secure. This sense of security from the past that is so safe  can make it lazy and have the tendency to accommodate it self to an easy life, in which it is simply too lazy and will use others for its sustenance , belief system and values. Living off others has worked in prior lives, change ( Pluto ) will be resisted, it will resist and choose to remain in the well with its limited view of the world, than to jump out of the well and discover for itself its own capabilities, self reliance and sustenance.

The evolutionary intent through the PPP 8th house will force it to jump out of the well, due to internal and external confrontations that it will have with others, these confrontations will show it how its beliefs and values are limited and why it is relating to itself the way it does and why it has the values it has. (PPP 8th house ) It will for evolution, continue to purge all its interior limitations that prevent growth and by forming relations with others so as to analyze itself and others through psycho-analysis , or psychology, so as to understand and overcome its limitations and become aware of its own and others motivations and intentions. ( PPP 8th house )It will learn to merge itself, its material wealth and values with others so that it can receive from the others what is does not have and at the same time give to the others what the others do not have.

Through metamorphosing ( Scorpio/ 8th house), its values and inner relationship will be transmitted to higher levels of expression and it looses the fear and need to remain so rooted in its ideas, being willing to share its inner wealth with the world.
Blessings
Rita

Thank you Rita for your continued efforts and dedication to this work. Everything you wrote is accurate regarding understanding the nature of Pluto in the 2nd, however the question still remains: WHY would a soul remain fixed and remain in some form of isolation instead of sharing its inner wealth?

Something to consider: If a soul has become emotionally attached to only certain resources and ways of self-relating as necessary for its own survival and emotional/psychological sustenance, this defacto implies that its own sense of survival/sustenance is at the same time limited by these very resources and ways of self-relating.

What kind of psychological crisis would this soul experience if these resources/ways of self-relating were then blocked from the soul in some way? Based on the familiarity with certain fixed ways of being, why might this soul resist making any changes? The answer is found by starting with the soul and the nature of it's dual desires.

This is for you to reflect upon further. And if you wish of course please feel free to respond further to these questions.
With love,
Ari Moshe

Hi Ari,

Thanks for your response and for your question. 

"What would be the general reason, from the point of view of the separating desires of the soul, for this soul's resistance to moving forward in the world and staying in some sort of 2nd house isolation. What is the core unconscious fear implied in this signature?"

For a pluto in the 2nd, third stage individuated soul I think that the unconscious fear has to do with survival.  This soul has been working on self-sufficiency (Pluto 2nd) and in the individuated state would also be focused on itself as separate from society.  So I think the fear is that if the soul has to integrate itself into society (part of the 3rd stage individuated and PPP 8th house) that it will lose its self-reliance and may not survive?  The soul has been super focused on itself and securing resources for itself and now it has to learn how to share.  The desire of the 2nd house Pluto is a separating desire in the sense that the soul can become too fixed on isolating itself to effect its own feeling of security.  The time will come for the soul to share what it has with the world while maintaining the lessons of self-sufficiency that it has learned.  And because of the nature of Pluto in the 2nd house the soul will have a natural resistance to do this.

-Emily

Hi Emily,

QuoteHi Ari,

Thanks for your response and for your question. 

"What would be the general reason, from the point of view of the separating desires of the soul, for this soul's resistance to moving forward in the world and staying in some sort of 2nd house isolation. What is the core unconscious fear implied in this signature?"

For a pluto in the 2nd, third stage individuated soul I think that the unconscious fear has to do with survival.  This soul has been working on self-sufficiency (Pluto 2nd) and in the individuated state would also be focused on itself as separate from society.  So I think the fear is that if the soul has to integrate itself into society (part of the 3rd stage individuated and PPP 8th house) that it will lose its self-reliance and may not survive? 

Yes that is the key.

The soul has been super focused on itself and securing resources for itself and now it has to learn how to share.  The desire of the 2nd house Pluto is a separating desire in the sense that the soul can become too fixed on isolating itself to effect its own feeling of security.  The time will come for the soul to share what it has with the world while maintaining the lessons of self-sufficiency that it has learned. 
And because of the nature of Pluto in the 2nd house the soul will have a natural resistance to do this.

-Emily

You got it Emily. What's most important to understand is just the nature of separating desires: it links security to that which is limited. And thus, in this case, survival and self esteem is linked to ephemeral, limited conditions. Evolution necessitates that this soul move beyond that narrow world concept and find a way of relating to itself beyond the limitations of that world concept.
With love,
Ari Moshe

Ari,

I've spent a lot of time on this, and although I'd like to dig deeper, I wanted to get something out there before ya'll continued!! Been feeling a bit of a block. Thank you for your time! I'm all ears.

A soul with Pluto in the 2nd house indicates a desire nature that's been focused on learning lessons of self-sufficiency. This involves internalizing and forming a relationship with one's means of survival as a human, including everything from material goods to innate skills to divine provision to the relationship with one's body and physical sense of aliveness. Security in, inner-dependence on, and stubbornness related to 'what works' naturally follow. For example, if eating makes one feel more powerfully alive, one may have a tendency to over eat. However, a vision of 'what works' is always limited to some extent, and confrontations with outer manifestations of power (through which 'what works' is proved otherwise) will arise so as to invite a metamorphosis to a more Scorpionic (PPP) way of being in which merging resources with others is necessary in the broader reality.

Positively, a soul with a 2nd house Pluto will have a keen survival instinct and resourcefulness. It'll value and be receptive to beauty, pleasure, material goods, talents, and help from others. It welcomes such blessings as it knows itself to be worthy of receiving. There is an implied gratitude here. Negatively, the soul may demonstrate patterns of compulsively clinging to anything that provides stability and continuity, such as money, and even isolation.

In transitioning into the 3rd stage individuated way of being, this soul must choose to leave behind its personalized, inhibiting feelings of resentment, anger, and rebellion towards the consensus in order to truly actualize its God-given gifts for constructive use in the collective. This process will involve merging with the value systems of others in a way that doesn't forfeit one's own authenticity. A realization that's implied is that what one values and appears to possess, whether it be the body or material goods or beliefs, is in a continual process of dying...one must be receptive to change in order to survive...and being truly self-sufficient isn't antithetical to integrating external resources. Leaving behind negative feelings toward the consensus is a scary thing, because what's implied is a movement beyond identification with it, and thus a deepened realization of self-sufficiency.

~ Stephen

Hi Stephen,

QuoteAri,

I've spent a lot of time on this, and although I'd like to dig deeper, I wanted to get something out there before ya'll continued!! Been feeling a bit of a block. Thank you for your time! I'm all ears.

A soul with Pluto in the 2nd house indicates a desire nature that's been focused on learning lessons of self-sufficiency. This involves internalizing and forming a relationship with one's means of survival as a human, including everything from material goods to innate skills to divine provision to the relationship with one's body and physical sense of aliveness. Security in, inner-dependence on, and stubbornness related to 'what works' naturally follow. For example, if eating makes one feel more powerfully alive, one may have a tendency to over eat. However, a vision of 'what works' is always limited to some extent, and confrontations with outer manifestations of power (through which 'what works' is proved otherwise) will arise so as to invite a metamorphosis to a more Scorpionic (PPP) way of being in which merging resources with others is necessary in the broader reality.

It's more accurate to use the term "what I need" than "what works". The limitations of Pluto in the 2nd are the limitations created from desires that are linked to various kinds of self sustaining needs that the soul is yet fixated on fulfilling and sustaining. The exhaustion of desire with this placement is the exhaustion of any desire that, in an ultimate sense, links self reliance to something external of one's self.

Positively, a soul with a 2nd house Pluto will have a keen survival instinct and resourcefulness. It'll value and be receptive to beauty, pleasure, material goods, talents, and help from others. It welcomes such blessings as it knows itself to be worthy of receiving. There is an implied gratitude here. Negatively, the soul may demonstrate patterns of compulsively clinging to anything that provides stability and continuity, such as money, and even isolation.

In transitioning into the 3rd stage individuated way of being, this soul must choose to leave behind its personalized, inhibiting feelings of resentment, anger, and rebellion towards the consensus in order to truly actualize its God-given gifts for constructive use in the collective. This process will involve merging with the value systems of others in a way that doesn't forfeit one's own authenticity. A realization that's implied is that what one values and appears to possess, whether it be the body or material goods or beliefs, is in a continual process of dying...one must be receptive to change in order to survive...and being truly self-sufficient isn't antithetical to integrating external resources.

Well put. And that's the whole paradox with Pluto (change, evolution) in the 2nd house (survival, self sustaining). The key is gradually to reconnect to one's core, one's sense of self esteem in a way that is not contingent upon the known and limited resources, to embrace life's innate impermanence in all regards (8th house polarity point). Thus a part of that is becoming receptive (2nd house) to new energies that will come into one's life that the soul had previously been unable to receive or appreciate due to the previous fixation on what is known.

Leaving behind negative feelings toward the consensus is a scary thing, because what's implied is a movement beyond identification with it, and thus a deepened realization of self-sufficiency.

~ Stephen

Great ea analysis Stephen. Thank you for your efforts here.
With love
Ari Moshe

Hi Stephen, Kora, Rita, Henrik, Emily, Tory and Gray, I just want to commend everyone for their efforts here. Each one of you have exemplified a correct understanding and application of Pluto in the 2nd house in this ea stage.

My choice to ask a few individuals further questions is because I know some of you are capable of going deeper. Answering them is of course optional like nearly everything is. Any effort is always welcome and remember that the value is always in the effort.

I will wait till next week to add the sn. In the mean time this space is here for further interpretations or questions.
God bless, with love
Ari Moshe

Hi Ari,


The Soul and the nature of its dual desires:

Pluto in the second house would tell us that this Soul has been for many life times perfecting its self sustenance and self reliance through strengthening its values and beliefs and its wealth. Giving it the impression/ belief that these separating desires, that material wealth and its rooted values give it happiness and emotional security.  It is attached to past habits, ( Pluto) these habits, values and beliefs are well integrated so it feels comfortable and secure. Unconsciously it keeps on holding on to these past patterns of behavior and ways of thinking, refusing to open itself to other points of view.
Change is very difficult as it is a fixed house and with Pluto 2nd house, it will hold on to all its past values beliefs and wealth, (why) because its worse fear is of loosing its security, as it believes that happiness comes from material wealth, and finds it difficult to share all that it has worked so hard to achieve, be these material wealth, values or beliefs.
Eventually this behavior pattern creates stagnation and no evolution occurs and the Soul desires to grow and evolve will be stronger. Outside circumstances will occur, such as; confrontations with others / internal confrontations with itself in relationship to the values or beliefs that it has. Through PPP 8th house, these self analysis and confrontations with others, will force it out of its isolation, seclusion, contort zone or even laziness, all because of deep rooted fears of change and security issues, that the known represents. The eight house will show it through others how its value system is limited, and why it relates to itself the way it does. This will force it to revalue its values and how it relates to itself and open up to different values and beliefs. This opening up will fulfill the desire to know more through others, broadening its knowledge and it is automatically fulfilling the second desire of its Soul that is to return to its original Source. This simply because it opened up to other realities, points of view / jumped out of the well and it is nearer to the Source or its Creator. It will come to realize that its need for material wealth will gradually diminish, it will come to realize that there is no need to hoard or keep for itself and that to share with others will give it the happiness it has never found before when it kept its wealth to itself. It will no longer be threatened or feel insecure of itself for having different values, beliefs or religions of other people, as it has understood that there are many roads leading to the same end.
In other words its own belief system, values, material wealth and the way it relates to itself will completely change and expand, giving it the ability to understand that security and happiness comes from within and not because of what it owns or possesses.It will also feel secure with the belief system it has adapted for itself through other beliefs and value systems that it has incorporated with its own.
I don´t know how to do it better,
blessings
Rita

Hi Rita, I've been very busy so I just wanted to touch base here. I'll respond either later tonight or tomorrow. With love
am

Hello Rita,

QuoteThe Soul and the nature of its dual desires:

Pluto in the second house would tell us that this Soul has been for many life times perfecting its self sustenance and self reliance through strengthening its values and beliefs and its wealth. Giving it the impression/ belief that these separating desires, that material wealth and its rooted values give it happiness and emotional security.  It is attached to past habits, (Pluto) these habits, values and beliefs are well integrated so it feels comfortable and secure. Unconsciously it keeps on holding on to these past patterns of behavior and ways of thinking, refusing to open itself to other points of view.

Change is very difficult as it is a fixed house and with Pluto 2nd house, it will hold on to all its past values beliefs and wealth, (why) because its worse fear is of loosing its security, as it believes that happiness comes from material wealth, and finds it difficult to share all that it has worked so hard to achieve, be these material wealth, values or beliefs.

That's good. The greatest fear is linked to the change of the world it has identified as necessary for it's own survival/continuance in this world linked to whatever it's deepest values are based on it's inner relationship to itself.

However one thing to understand and correct about what you said is that this does not necessarily have a direct linkage to wealth. The well that the frog lives in can just as much be a mansion as it can be a homeless shelter. The well is truly an inner state of being: it's an inner relationship to one'self which correlates to the soul's core sense of self-value and meaning of it's own life. This of course will translate to a very fixed relationship to its physical reality, all aspects of it, as a natural expression of the limitations inherent within the soul's inner relationship with itself.

Eventually this behavior pattern creates stagnation and no evolution occurs and the Soul desires to grow and evolve will be stronger. Outside circumstances will occur, such as; confrontations with others / internal confrontations with itself in relationship to the values or beliefs that it has. Through PPP 8th house, these self analysis and confrontations with others, will force it out of its isolation, seclusion, contort zone or even laziness, all because of deep rooted fears of change and security issues, that the known represents.

The eight house will show it through others how its value system is limited, and why it relates to itself the way it does. This will force it to revalue its values and how it relates to itself and open up to different values and beliefs. This opening up will fulfill the desire to know more through others, broadening its knowledge and it is automatically fulfilling the second desire of its Soul that is to return to its original Source. This simply because it opened up to other realities, points of view / jumped out of the well and it is nearer to the Source or its Creator.

It will come to realize that its need for material wealth will gradually diminish, it will come to realize that there is no need to hoard or keep for itself and that to share with others will give it the happiness it has never found before when it kept its wealth to itself. It will no longer be threatened or feel insecure of itself for having different values, beliefs or religions of other people, as it has understood that there are many roads leading to the same end.

This would be relevant if there were some sort of 9th house/Sag element involved here. Beliefs correlate to Sag.

In other words its own belief system, values, material wealth and the way it relates to itself will completely change and expand, giving it the ability to understand that security and happiness comes from within and not because of what it owns or possesses.It will also feel secure with the belief system it has adapted for itself through other beliefs and value systems that it has incorporated with its own.
I don´t know how to do it better,
blessings
Rita

You are doing a great job Rita. While more depth can be offered, I feel you do understand this correctly.
I recommend that you just keep on going and as a rule, to keep focused on the teachings of Jeff Green. As always ask questions about absolutely anything that you feel within yourself that you don't fully grasp. This is what this message board is for: to assist those who wish to learn to learn. There is always no one to compare ourselves to other than our own selves.

And once again I feel your writing and comprehension has developed immensely in just the short time you've been practicing this work. Bravo for you ! Thank you for your efforts.
God bless,
With love
Ari Moshe

Hello everyone,

We are now ready to move on to the next step! First I wish to ask the group: do you feel ready to add the sn and it's ruler by house, or would you prefer to just add the sn by house first?
With love,
am

Hi Ari,
Thank you once again for this opportunity, it is thanks to you and the MB if i have done any improvement in this work, again thank you Ari and thank you all.
Whatever you feel we are up to i am on board.
Blessings
Rita

Hi Ari,

Any way you or others feel is appropriate is fine by me...

All the best,
Henrik

Hi Ari,

I have a slight preference for breaking it down in to two separate steps so that the distinctions are more clearly made as steps get added.  I am happy to go along with the groups wishes which ever way you decide to do it!  Thanks.

Kora

Hi all,

We will now be placing this south node in the 12th house. The assignment now is to create a past life context for this soul: what evolutionary and karmic dynamics are implied by this basic Pluto in the 2nd / sn in the 12th combination?

Remember that the south node correlates to the emotional memories that are carried over from one life to the next. This links to however the soul has constituted its own identity in the past.

We always have to ask the question "Why" behind any identity. Why was this emotional orientation created, what was the reason for the identity that this soul created? The answer is always Pluto. Pluto, as the bottom line correlates to the underlying desires of the soul that lead to incarnation. It's that specific ego, the sn, that has served as a focusing agent for the desires of the soul.During human incarnation the innate connection between the soul and the ego is absolutely inseparable.

So with that in mind, lets examine the nature of this soul coming into this life: Pluto via the sn of the Moon in the context of a soul who has evolved to the end of the second individuated stage of evolution.

If you have any questions, please ask.
With love,
Ari Moshe

Hi everyone - I made a correction in my above post. I originally wrote that the sn will be in Cancer in the 12th. I have taken the Cancer part out for now.

For those who already got started with Cancer, that's fine you may include that. For everyone else we will focus on just the house placement for now.
With love
Ari Moshe

Hi Ari Hi All,
My try,

Pluto 2nd house / SN 12 house / second stage individuated transitioning to 3rd stage individuated

With this configuration this Soul will already know all about rebelling against the societies values, it will also know all about survival and how to sustain itself / self reliance independent from others.  In other words over many life times it has developed its own value system and it will use its self capacities and abilities in order to sustain itself. 
It will feel very alienated towards the consensus society with its values and beliefs and it will maintain its previously learned self reliance and vision of itself apart from the consensus society that surrounds it. With the ruler of SN in the 11 house it may have suffered persecution because of its rigid values, having to flee, hide away from society or having lost its identity by the trauma its Soul had to undergo. All this trauma and loss is necessary for its evolution to continue because it is in the transition stage of second individuated to third individuated stage. It will decondition and liberate itself from cultural conditioning patterns that do not allow for further growth to happen and it needs to liberate / rebel itself from all societal values so that its conscious structure can open up to new views.  It will also need to find a way to apply back into society as a means of survival, its skills or talents and its own vision in a completely objective and individualistic way that resonates with its Souls intrinsic nature.

With ruler of the SN in the 11 house, this placement shows us that in past lives its Soul has had traumatic experiences , these traumatic experiences have helped it to cleanse by rebelling itself of the consensus society way of thinking and its values. The prior life trauma caused great fracturing in its values and material wealth could have driven it to escapism either through alcohol  or by isolation in some monastery being incapable of relating to anything but its illusions. Eventually its need for evolution to continue will push it to have confrontations with other people that through having different points of views from its own, will  show it that  other views can be much broader and very different than it believed to be. These experiences provoked a shock and forced it to go inwards, analyze and realize (PPP 8 house ) how limited its vision of the world  is. 
This may have pushed it into a group of one, isolating, victimizing and rebelling  itself against all others that do not share its values. It will feel that life is beyond control and that it is at the mercy of forces beyond its control this could have pushed to escapism through drugs or alcohol   until it finds other people that think alike as itself and  felt secure enough to share its views resources and live secure for a long time without much change with its ideas and views of how the world should / should not be ( Pluto 2nd house ). It  has deep unconscious fears of any change that could rock the boat. This Soul with this configuration will resist change ( Pluto 2nd house / Taurus / PPP 8th house Scorpio fixed also and the SN ruler 11th house / Aquarius )and even through trauma it would be very difficult for it to change its values or survival habits because it would seek to find  its security through some prior value system that it identified with.

Having Pluto in the second house / SN 12 house, will cause it to resist change  because it is a fixed house and because the known and familiar represents security. Yet  to resist change and not  allow for evolution to proceed will cause through out its life in varying degrees of intensity cycles of confusion, alienation, disorientation because It fears  deeply loosing control of its life if it succumbs to change and at the same time it has realized that all that it identified with, no longer seems to have any meaning nor can it identify with it anymore.
  It comes into this life knowing what is right and what is wrong and will adopt for itself some idealized conduct and will judge others who do not reflect its standards. Cyclically it will analyze and judge itself until it learns that "ultimate" judgement is based upon its intentions and intentions reflect its desires,  so it is important that it focuses on its desires in order to understand its intentions. The inner judgement makes it aware of what is preventing it to become perfect in relation to its standard of conduct that it has for itself. It will keep on perfecting its standard of right conduct so that it recognizes any incorrect desire and behavior of others, this way it will not affect for itself any incorrect behavior of others through its lack of judgement or discrimination.

It will continue what it started in prior life times, which is the desire to find and discover for itself the knowledge that transcend cultural based values, time and space. At a Soul level it feels a deep desire to keep aligning itself with some type of transcendental belief that can show it the unity of all creation. In this life time it will have a deep inner sense  that it is standing upon a precipice, because behind it, is the known, the familiar, the security it knows with its own world, with its values, and in front, it only sees its future and that which represents timeless and the Universe.
Yet with SN in the 12 house in prior life times it has had the need to merge itself / identify with the Source of creation, ( ruler of SN 11 / SN 12 house ) it has already broken away from consensus values and its Soul has been in the process of individuation so as to be able to transcend  time space reality and get closer to its creator.
Any disunion of its values will cause resistance and repulsion to the merging and surrendering process that it feels a pull towards, separating desires imply its unconscious fear of loosing control of its life.
By relinquishing its desires from its egoistic identity it has  been eliminating or dissolving any barrier that kept it from universalizing realizing that it can only surrender itself to feel complete and part of  the Universe.
SN 12 house  PP  6 house for evolution to continue it will develop specific ways or practical mental techniques through which, it will analyze itself and understand why it functions the way it does and why it is the way it is, slowly this process will make it understand or experience / witness how one part is linked to another part and how one part influences the expression of every other part.
It will try to find techniques such as meditation, yoga  that will help it to ground its natural meditational state so that it can connect it self to a transcendental belief system, helping it to connect itself closer to the Source.
It cannot remain isolated any more, it will desire to help others through service and useful work, it will  share, integrate and be of service to society or groups, showing and teaching others in a individualistic way what it knows to survive and its views about the world.
I tried,
Blessings
Rita

Dear Ari,

Happy 12.12.12!

Very busy time for me again, will try and post this week; at the end of next week i am going to Australia for 3 weeks, hopefully i will have internet access while there but not it's sure.
Blessings to you All
Tory

Tory I hope you get to visit Linda! Enjoy your journey.

Kora, Emily, Henrik, Stephen, and Gray, let me know if you intend to post so I know who to wait for.
With love,
am

Hi Ari and Everyone,

I have been distracted focusing on other issues so haven't had the time I would like to address this next phase but want to post something so will write some of my thoughts:

This soul for lifetimes has been focusing his 2nd house Pluto through an ego (12th house) that has desired to realize transcendent values wanting to dissolve all barriers towards merging with Source.  In his deepest unconscious being he has been on a precipice between the past and the future...facing the choice of whether to operate from what he has known in the past or to jump off the cliff towards an unknown future.  He would likely have made conscious choices in the past to participate within certain spiritual systems or practices in order to experientially realize the spiritual aspects of all of life.  With Pluto in the 2nd there is a huge paradox here because he would have tremendous unconscious fear of loss of ego and his 2nd house issues have been about learning to find his own individual values and needs....He has been focusing on not needing anyone or anything and the 12th requires him to give all of this up.  He knows through his Baptist upbringing that the "faith" that is preached from the pulpit is a far cry from what he can resonate with...

Resistance could manifest in a variety of ways.  One example that comes to mind is someone who might be drawn to join a spiritual subgroup such as the Ramtha community where the "spiritual" teachings are in actuality quite ego focused.  Though many spiritual truths are taught....one is taught that "they are God" (a form of delusion)....the emphasis is on "controlling" your life "manifesting" your every desire and rising above your emotions which is very contradictory to surrender, emotions, love, faith.....Such an individual might for a time by practicing visualization and focusing on desires realize certain egoic based dreams but at some point would experience deep betrayal or confrontation from an 8th house more powerful energy forcing them to recognize that they have been actually living out the same immature dependency as found in the Baptist church....just with a little more intellectual sophistication.....in reality it is not jumping off the cliff at all. The person might become very disillusioned realizing they have been duped in to losing financial resources and that they have become quite dependent on this supposedly superior being for protection and what to do next instead relying upon their own internal guidance and the true voice of Source. 

There could be many other manifestations of resistance.  Psychologically this person could have had lifetimes where he has had very poor emotional boundaries maybe even to the extent of manifesting mental illnesses such as dissociative disorders or paranoid delusions or addictive avoidanct behaviors that manifest in all sorts of forms from food addictions to alcoholism, etc.  All of these would be ways of still holding on to individualized ego identity.....unconsciously the individual would rather be crazy or sick  than to experience the abyss of the unknown and no ego....On the other hand because this person is getting ready to enter 3rd stage individuated I would expect that this person would have through previous lifetimes established some higher ability of ego function as they would not be ready to move on to this next stage if they were not able to independently function in the world and survive on their own.  They would likely have some genuine experience of communion with Source....(is this accurate??) 

This person could legitimately be quite psychic.  He could have a highly developed sense of right and wrong....again the issues of how reliable his psychic abilities are or his ability to use judgement in a balanced and positive way would be determined by his true ego strengh meaning how in touch he is with his ego as operative within the larger Source....not independent of It.  If he is not in balance then he is likely to have lots of negative judgement about self or others and if he is not in balance then any psychic abilities would be more of a manifestation of his own unconscious ego rather than Source or other realms.  This individual could be someone who for many lifetimes lived a self sacrificing kind of life with martyrdom as an issue with his lack of boundaries or could have lived out dynamics of abuse where he was also in the perpetrator role....it is possible that he spent many liftimes in living in penance or secluded lifetimes in monasteries.  These kind of dynamics would create strong pulls toward being alone or withdrawing from the world which would be a challenge as he faces the need moving in to 3rd stage individuated to integrate in to the larger society in ways that benefit others and going beyond the isolation of frog in the well self survival.

This individual could be someone who has a very compromised immune system perhaps even to the point of having developed a physical illness as a result of imbalances.  Through the NN polarity point (6th) he might have to dig very deeply in to the causes and treatment of physical illness facing the spiritual lessions of surrender, healthy boundaries, faith and unity with Source.

Moving in to 3rd stage individuated will require this person to link up with the larger world in such a way that his established resources, values, survival skills can be used to benefit others.  He could be a highly creative artistic indivdual who produces sacred art that blesses and moves others in many forms, he could be a psychic channeler who counsels others, he could be a healer, he could be a feng shui consultant or an interior designer or many other possibilities.  He might create some type of independent practice.  Whatever he does it will be important for him to balance time alone with time with others and it will be important to find a way to connect with the larger world in a way where he humbly  recognizes he needs others yet at the same time knows with confidence that he has gifts to give that can benefit the larger society.  He must move out of self isolation and live in balance with his own integrity within the greater Source.  When in balance he will live from genuine principles of love and service to others.

This is what I have for now.

God Bless!
Kora

Hello,

Pluto in the 2nd house, South Node in the 12th house:

The 2nd house desires of this soul have been focused via a 12th house ego in the most recent past life.  Taurus and Pisces form a natural sextile so there must be some ease of connection here, but it seems like the 2nd house desires of self-reliance and self-sufficiency could easily be in conflict with the 12th house function of dissolving all barriers.  The nature of Pluto in the 2nd house to isolate and live within a safe little world of its own construction would be constantly asked to leave the world it had created behind, and open to the broader, limitless possibilities of the 12th house.

The soul at the end of the 2nd stage individuated would not necessarily be seeking a direct connection with source and yet would have been feeling that there is something more to life that they were not in touch with.  

As the second house Pluto withdraws from the world to discover its own values and needs, the intention would have been for these to be aligned with higher will, not the self-serving desires of the ego "inflated with distinction" from source.  

The 12th house south node is very supportive of the PPP 8th house - dissolving the barriers of the 2nd house to open up to others.  With Pluto in the 2nd in the individuated state there is a strong sense of wanting to isolate and protect oneself against perceived threats from society (?).  There is also a strong sense of the self as a separate, self-sustaining entity.  The 12th house ego would probably have been in strong denial that it is merely a part of a greater whole, and that the source of its security is not itself but only in going beyond itself to align with a higher power.  

This soul could have had a tough time finding meaning in life as everything identified with and clung to for a sense of continuity and security would have eventually lost all meaning for the individual.  There is the strong possibility that this soul chose some aspect of its life to focus all of its energy through in an attempt to create a sense of meaning for itself.   Pluto in the 2nd would be very good at doing that - narrowing the focus and holding on to it tightly, and good at materializing whatever it focused on as meaningful.  This soul could have very easily found itself stuck in a place of meaninglessness, yet refusing to let go of the past.

As the soul moves into the 3rd stage individuated it could find itself with the need to bring forth divinely inspired talents.  The continued work will be to move past any limitations restricting the soul's movement back to source. As the separating desire is reflected here in excessive isolation due to a feeling of needing to control one's resources in order to survive, the returning desires will be about realizing that some power greater than the ego is responsible for life and death and that security will be found by being rooted in faith and practicing more openness.  They must realize that the source of the limitations is within themselves and consciously work on a personal connection with spirit.

Thanks for hosting this practice thread - I greatly appreciate the opportunity to practice.

Peace,
Emily

Ari and group,

I will be posting but have not made the time up until this point, and my work has a lot going on to take care of at the moment.  I will post as soon as possible about the 12th. In case you want to move on and add another level before I post, please do if I am able to integrate the 12th house still in the next step.

Have a merry solstice time,
Gray

Hi Ari,

I will try to post something this weekend. If I don't post in time, I hope it's ok to post what I have when we move on to the next layer...

Much gratitude.

All the best,
Henrik

Ok great, thank you both.
Henrik, yes - you can really post anything at anytime.
I'll begin my responses next week.
With love, am

Quote from: ari moshe on Dec 14, 2012, 01:57 AM
Tory I hope you get to visit Linda! Enjoy your journey.

Thankyou Ari!, I would love to catch up with Linda but we will be still many hours travel from one another, looking forward to the day it will be possible...xxx
May you all be bathed in light and peace and gratitude in 2013, looking forward to sharing more EA with you all. Tory

Hi Rad, Steve, Ari and all others,
A few lines to wish you all happy holiday and that the New Year brings enlightenment, peace and love to the world. Hopefully more will wake up, even a little change would make so much difference to humanity, but alas i fear my wish will go unanswered.
Love and peace
Rita

Hello Rita,

QuoteHi Ari Hi All,
My try,

Pluto 2nd house / SN 12 house / second stage individuated transitioning to 3rd stage individuated

With this configuration this Soul will already know all about rebelling against the societies values, it will also know all about survival and how to sustain itself / self reliance independent from others.  In other words over many life times it has developed its own value system and it will use its self capacities and abilities in order to sustain itself.
 
It will feel very alienated towards the consensus society with its values and beliefs and it will maintain its previously learned self reliance and vision of itself apart from the consensus society that surrounds it. With the ruler of SN in the 11 house it may have suffered persecution because of its rigid values, having to flee, hide away from society or having lost its identity by the trauma its Soul had to undergo. All this trauma and loss is necessary for its evolution to continue because it is in the transition stage of second individuated to third individuated stage. It will decondition and liberate itself from cultural conditioning patterns that do not allow for further growth to happen and it needs to liberate / rebel itself from all societal values so that its conscious structure can open up to new views.  It will also need to find a way to apply back into society as a means of survival, its skills or talents and its own vision in a completely objective and individualistic way that resonates with its Souls intrinsic nature.

Beautifully said Rita.

With ruler of the SN in the 11 house, this placement shows us that in past lives its Soul has had traumatic experiences , these traumatic experiences have helped it to cleanse by rebelling itself of the consensus society way of thinking and its values. The prior life trauma caused great fracturing in its values and material wealth could have driven it to escapism either through alcohol  or by isolation in some monastery being incapable of relating to anything but its illusions.

I assume you are referring to the sn in the 12th house? Everything you wrote is true, however the monastery would likely not be relevant.

Eventually its need for evolution to continue will push it to have confrontations with other people that through having different points of views from its own, will  show it that  other views can be much broader and very different than it believed to be. These experiences provoked a shock and forced it to go inwards, analyze and realize (PPP 8 house ) how limited its vision of the world  is.
 
This may have pushed it into a group of one, isolating, victimizing and rebelling  itself against all others that do not share its values. It will feel that life is beyond control and that it is at the mercy of forces beyond its control this could have pushed to escapism through drugs or alcohol until it finds other people that think alike as itself and  felt secure enough to share its views resources and live secure for a long time without much change with its ideas and views of how the world should / should not be ( Pluto 2nd house ). It  has deep unconscious fears of any change that could rock the boat. This Soul with this configuration will resist change ( Pluto 2nd house / Taurus / PPP 8th house Scorpio fixed also and the SN ruler 11th house / Aquarius )and even through trauma it would be very difficult for it to change its values or survival habits because it would seek to find  its security through some prior value system that it identified with.

Having Pluto in the second house / SN 12 house, will cause it to resist change  because it is a fixed house and because the known and familiar represents security. Yet  to resist change and not  allow for evolution to proceed will cause through out its life in varying degrees of intensity cycles of confusion, alienation, disorientation because It fears  deeply loosing control of its life if it succumbs to change and at the same time it has realized that all that it identified with, no longer seems to have any meaning nor can it identify with it anymore.

Great, its about the loss of meaning - 12th house sn.

  It comes into this life knowing what is right and what is wrong and will adopt for itself some idealized conduct and will judge others who do not reflect its standards. Cyclically it will analyze and judge itself until it learns that "ultimate" judgement is based upon its intentions and intentions reflect its desires,  so it is important that it focuses on its desires in order to understand its intentions. The inner judgement makes it aware of what is preventing it to become perfect in relation to its standard of conduct that it has for itself. It will keep on perfecting its standard of right conduct so that it recognizes any incorrect desire and behavior of others, this way it will not affect for itself any incorrect behavior of others through its lack of judgement or discrimination.

What you wrote there would be relevent for Capricorn/Saturn/10th house signatures: judgement, right and wrong...

It will continue what it started in prior life times, which is the desire to find and discover for itself the knowledge that transcend cultural based values, time and space. At a Soul level it feels a deep desire to keep aligning itself with some type of transcendental belief that can show it the unity of all creation. In this life time it will have a deep inner sense  that it is standing upon a precipice, because behind it, is the known, the familiar, the security it knows with its own world, with its values, and in front, it only sees its future and that which represents timeless and the Universe.

Yet with SN in the 12 house in prior life times it has had the need to merge itself / identify with the Source of creation, ( ruler of SN 11 / SN 12 house ) it has already broken away from consensus values and its Soul has been in the process of individuation so as to be able to transcend  time space reality and get closer to its creator.

It hasn't not been literally identified with the Source of creation, rather it will have been consciously identified with whatever represents ultimate meaning for this soul.

Any disunion of its values will cause resistance and repulsion to the merging and surrendering process that it feels a pull towards, separating desires imply its unconscious fear of loosing control of its life.
By relinquishing its desires from its egoistic identity it has  been eliminating or dissolving any barrier that kept it from universalizing realizing that it can only surrender itself to feel complete and part of  the Universe.

SN 12 house  PP  6 house for evolution to continue it will develop specific ways or practical mental techniques through which, it will analyze itself and understand why it functions the way it does and why it is the way it is, slowly this process will make it understand or experience / witness how one part is linked to another part and how one part influences the expression of every other part.

It will try to find techniques such as meditation, yoga  that will help it to ground its natural meditational state so that it can connect it self to a transcendental belief system, helping it to connect itself closer to the Source.

I think that is possible since those practices are certainly of interest at that evolutionary stage - but I must emphasize that the intention at this evolutionary stage is not to spiritualize consciousness in a spiritual state sense, rather it's to merge with a transcendent purpose that will allow the individuality of the soul to have a greater impact on the collective, greater than just ones own self: 12th house in the individuated state.

It cannot remain isolated any more, it will desire to help others through service and useful work, it will  share, integrate and be of service to society or groups, showing and teaching others in a individualistic way what it knows to survive and its views about the world.
I tried,
Blessings
Rita

Rita, everything you wrote, with the exception of the few corrections I offered, is accurate and true. Once again your improvement is really palpable.
Please read other people's posts so you can get more perspective on understanding the connection between the 12th house sn and Pluto in the 2nd. I did not comment much on your analysis of the sn ruler in the 11th house or on the north node in the 6th because as a group we are not interpreting those signatures yet.
With love,
Ari Moshe

Hi Kora,

QuoteHi Ari and Everyone,

I have been distracted focusing on other issues so haven't had the time I would like to address this next phase but want to post something so will write some of my thoughts:

This soul for lifetimes has been focusing his 2nd house Pluto through an ego (12th house) that has desired to realize transcendent values wanting to dissolve all barriers towards merging with Source.  In his deepest unconscious being he has been on a precipice between the past and the future...facing the choice of whether to operate from what he has known in the past or to jump off the cliff towards an unknown future.  He would likely have made conscious choices in the past to participate within certain spiritual systems or practices in order to experientially realize the spiritual aspects of all of life.

What you say would be generally true for the spiritual stage of evolution. The desire to realize the spiritual aspects of all of life is a spiritual stage thing.

With Pluto in the 2nd there is a huge paradox here because he would have tremendous unconscious fear of loss of ego and his 2nd house issues have been about learning to find his own individual values and needs....He has been focusing on not needing anyone or anything and the 12th requires him to give all of this up.  He knows through his Baptist upbringing that the "faith" that is preached from the pulpit is a far cry from what he can resonate with...

Resistance could manifest in a variety of ways.  One example that comes to mind is someone who might be drawn to join a spiritual subgroup such as the Ramtha community where the "spiritual" teachings are in actuality quite ego focused.  Though many spiritual truths are taught....one is taught that "they are God" (a form of delusion)....the emphasis is on "controlling" your life "manifesting" your every desire and rising above your emotions which is very contradictory to surrender, emotions, love, faith.....Such an individual might for a time by practicing visualization and focusing on desires realize certain egoic based dreams but at some point would experience deep betrayal or confrontation from an 8th house more powerful energy forcing them to recognize that they have been actually living out the same immature dependency as found in the Baptist church....just with a little more intellectual sophistication.....in reality it is not jumping off the cliff at all. The person might become very disillusioned realizing they have been duped in to losing financial resources and that they have become quite dependent on this supposedly superior being for protection and what to do next instead relying upon their own internal guidance and the true voice of Source. 

Great example. My sense is that souls at this stage certainly could join this Ramtha community, however the soul aspirations behind it would not be an allure to merging with source, rather it would be about developing one's great capacity for projection, manifestation, psychic development, things of that nature.

There could be many other manifestations of resistance.  Psychologically this person could have had lifetimes where he has had very poor emotional boundaries maybe even to the extent of manifesting mental illnesses such as dissociative disorders or paranoid delusions or addictive avoidanct behaviors that manifest in all sorts of forms from food addictions to alcoholism, etc.  All of these would be ways of still holding on to individualized ego identity.....unconsciously the individual would rather be crazy or sick  than to experience the abyss of the unknown and no ego....On the other hand because this person is getting ready to enter 3rd stage individuated I would expect that this person would have through previous lifetimes established some higher ability of ego function as they would not be ready to move on to this next stage if they were not able to independently function in the world and survive on their own.  They would likely have some genuine experience of communion with Source....(is this accurate??)

Your on the right track however the way to think of it in this stage is that they would have been significantly disillusioned to the point where in this lifetime they are now learning the skills to apply their dreams into action. The issue with a 2nd house Pluto and a 12th house sn at this evolutionary juncture is the self enclosed reality that would have been created via a dream idea of reality that simply does not add up to reality itself - this leading to all kinds of inner potential and skill to not being shared, keeping the soul blocked, limited from moving beyond it's psychological well of isolation. And yes the possibility for addictions and any form of escapism that keeps the soul's head in the sand is definitely possible here. However at this point the soul is now ready to move forward with greater discrimination that would allow them to get out of their self limiting reality. This of course is singified by the nn.

And once again, in terms of genuine communion with Source - we just have to remember that the desires at this stage of evolution are focused on developing one's individuality in the world. So spiritualization needs to be applied to that level of consciousness.

This person could legitimately be quite psychic.  He could have a highly developed sense of right and wrong....again the issues of how reliable his psychic abilities are or his ability to use judgement in a balanced and positive way would be determined by his true ego strengh meaning how in touch he is with his ego as operative within the larger Source....not independent of It. If he is not in balance then he is likely to have lots of negative judgement about self or others and if he is not in balance then any psychic abilities would be more of a manifestation of his own unconscious ego rather than Source or other realms.  This individual could be someone who for many lifetimes lived a self sacrificing kind of life with martyrdom as an issue with his lack of boundaries or could have lived out dynamics of abuse where he was also in the perpetrator role....it is possible that he spent many liftimes in living in penance or secluded lifetimes in monasteries.  These kind of dynamics would create strong pulls toward being alone or withdrawing from the world which would be a challenge as he faces the need moving in to 3rd stage individuated to integrate in to the larger society in ways that benefit others and going beyond the isolation of frog in the well self survival.

This individual could be someone who has a very compromised immune system perhaps even to the point of having developed a physical illness as a result of imbalances.  Through the NN polarity point (6th) he might have to dig very deeply in to the causes and treatment of physical illness facing the spiritual lessions of surrender, healthy boundaries, faith and unity with Source.

Moving in to 3rd stage individuated will require this person to link up with the larger world in such a way that his established resources, values, survival skills can be used to benefit others.  He could be a highly creative artistic indivdual who produces sacred art that blesses and moves others in many forms, he could be a psychic channeler who counsels others, he could be a healer, he could be a feng shui consultant or an interior designer or many other possibilities.  He might create some type of independent practice. 

This is all developed within the 3rd individuated stage and beyond. He is moving towards that in this life./b]

Whatever he does it will be important for him to balance time alone with time with others and it will be important to find a way to connect with the larger world in a way where he humbly  recognizes he needs others yet at the same time knows with confidence that he has gifts to give that can benefit the larger society.  He must move out of self isolation and live in balance with his own integrity within the greater Source.  When in balance he will live from genuine principles of love and service to others.

This is what I have for now.

God Bless!
Kora

Thanks for your efforts Kora - the general application with Pluto and the sn is all accurate, so great job on that account. However much of what you wrote was misapplied to a spiritual or late third individuated stage of evolution. I recommend you read through Jeff Green's descriptions of the individuated stages and if you wish to share any further analysis or ask any questions please do so.
With love
Ari Moshe

Hello Emily,

QuoteHello,

Pluto in the 2nd house, South Node in the 12th house:

The 2nd house desires of this soul have been focused via a 12th house ego in the most recent past life.  Taurus and Pisces form a natural sextile so there must be some ease of connection here, but it seems like the 2nd house desires of self-reliance and self-sufficiency could easily be in conflict with the 12th house function of dissolving all barriers.  The nature of Pluto in the 2nd house to isolate and live within a safe little world of its own construction would be constantly asked to leave the world it had created behind, and open to the broader, limitless possibilities of the 12th house.

More accurately, the limitless possibilities of the 12th house has conditioned the 2nd house Pluto. And so we'd see that the weak point within this soul is linked to its own dreams, which may be quite expansive, however in the end have also keep the soul stagnant and limited in its growth relative to where these dreams did not add up to reality. Beyond that this can certainly imply an incredibly inspired and gifted individual - musically, artistically etc.

The soul at the end of the 2nd stage individuated would not necessarily be seeking a direct connection with source and yet would have been feeling that there is something more to life that they were not in touch with. 

Yes

As the second house Pluto withdraws from the world to discover its own values and needs, the intention would have been for these to be aligned with higher will, not the self-serving desires of the ego "inflated with distinction" from source. 

The 12th house south node is very supportive of the PPP 8th house - dissolving the barriers of the 2nd house to open up to others.  With Pluto in the 2nd in the individuated state there is a strong sense of wanting to isolate and protect oneself against perceived threats from society (?). 

Yes

There is also a strong sense of the self as a separate, self-sustaining entity.  The 12th house ego would probably have been in strong denial that it is merely a part of a greater whole, and that the source of its security is not itself but only in going beyond itself to align with a higher power.   

This soul could have had a tough time finding meaning in life as everything identified with and clung to for a sense of continuity and security would have eventually lost all meaning for the individual.  There is the strong possibility that this soul chose some aspect of its life to focus all of its energy through in an attempt to create a sense of meaning for itself.   Pluto in the 2nd would be very good at doing that - narrowing the focus and holding on to it tightly, and good at materializing whatever it focused on as meaningful.  This soul could have very easily found itself stuck in a place of meaninglessness, yet refusing to let go of the past.

As the soul moves into the 3rd stage individuated it could find itself with the need to bring forth divinely inspired talents.  The continued work will be to move past any limitations restricting the soul's movement back to source. As the separating desire is reflected here in excessive isolation due to a feeling of needing to control one's resources in order to survive, the returning desires will be about realizing that some power greater than the ego is responsible for life and death and that security will be found by being rooted in faith and practicing more openness.  They must realize that the source of the limitations is within themselves and consciously work on a personal connection with spirit.

More accurately, it would be about realizing that there is an evolutionary imperative to apply more effort to create the world they wish to see. At this evolutionary juncture this soul has likely experienced polarities of intense hope and intense disillusionment - all in the end impacting upon it's personal sense of self esteem and worth. It is learning more about reality, and that it cannot just expect or dream life to be how it wishes. That it cannot just stay in hiding, or stay self enclosed in whatever lifestyle it had otherwise been focused upon for its own survival and self preservation.

This could be true, as some of you said, if this soul was a part of a community or group that represented some sort of higher transcendent meaning that kept the soul limited and stagnant in its own evolution. This could also be true for a soul that has just been alone in their own individuated world of dong their own thing and having lots of dreams, but those dreams never going anywhere.

Effort is required to actualize and bring into fruition all of it's dreams. Then, relative to the 2nd house Pluto, this soul will utilize its resource and generate what it needs in its own life to become actively involved in applying its individuality into society so as to actually impact the consensus.

Thanks for hosting this practice thread - I greatly appreciate the opportunity to practice.

Peace,
Emily

Thanks for your efforts Emily. With the exception of my couple clarifications, everything you said is accurate.
With love,
am

Hi all,

To those who still intend to post, feel free to post whenever you can as we likely wont move on till another week or so.

The main thing I am called to clarify here is that the 12th house sn implies the ego structure the soul has created as a focusing agent for its unresolved desires for self worth self reliance. In this evolutionary stage that has highly been linked to self preservation and protection - and thus this soul has clearly been isolating itself to a significant degree. The soul has been deeply immersed in all kinds of dreams and aspirations, AND also great disillusioment with the possibilty of futility, the loss of hope and meaning. The archetypal crescent sextile between the sn and Pluto imply how easy it would be for this soul to stay in its  bubble of escapism and dreams that don't go anywhere.

So the limitations for this soul would, at the core, be linked to where this soul has placed ultimate meaning in life, and how that meaning has created the context for the narrow world it has lived in which has in the end has only limited its capacity to move its inner resources out into the world and to feel capable enough to actualize its dreams into reality.

If you have any further questions or desire to offer more interpretation, please feel free to do so.
God bless and wishing everyone great peace and joy today, Love,
am

Hi Rita, I had the intuition to check out what you said again:

QuoteIt comes into this life knowing what is right and what is wrong and will adopt for itself some idealized conduct and will judge others who do not reflect its standards. Cyclically it will analyze and judge itself until it learns that "ultimate" judgement is based upon its intentions and intentions reflect its desires,  so it is important that it focuses on its desires in order to understand its intentions. The inner judgement makes it aware of what is preventing it to become perfect in relation to its standard of conduct that it has for itself. It will keep on perfecting its standard of right conduct so that it recognizes any incorrect desire and behavior of others, this way it will not affect for itself any incorrect behavior of others through its lack of judgement or discrimination.

And I found that JWG does in fact talk about judgement relative to this archetype. Not judgment in terms of ethical standards like we would find in Capricorn, but judgment in terms of seeing reality from the point of view of the Absolute: which is to judge others according to inner intention, not on outcome: Here's what JWG writes from the book itself:

QuoteOthers will manifest this as attempting to help everyone, whether or not anyone wants their help.  This type will judge no one, as if judging is to be avoided altogether.  12th house Pluto people need to learn what judgment really means, and how to exercise proper judgment.  The lesson is that ultimately judgment is based on intention, not on outcome.  They must learn to look at their own and others' intentions, and judge accordingly. 

INNER judgment is necessary because it becomes the vehicle to get closer to the ideal of right conduct.  They key is self-forgiveness, and then forgiveness of others.  The resolve to improve is the ultimate standard to judge by.   They must use a standard of judgment when considering others, for not judging at all leaves them open to adopting the incorrect behaviors of others since they have no sense of what is appropriate or inappropriate, relative to their own intention.

Hi Ari and Everyone,

Thanks Ari for your feedback....I will reflect on what you've said and see if I have any more questions....

Kora

Hi Ari and group,

I wanted to let you know I still intend to post on the 12th house south node and hopefully will have by the end of today.  I had wanted to read the 12th house Pluto chapter before writing anything- I have read that chapter, but just haven't made the time to get all my thoughts together in writing- but I intend for this to happen today, tomorrow at the latest.

Happy 2013!
Gray

Hi everyone - so now we will move to add the planetary ruler of the sn. This is placing the ruler of the sn in the 11th house. Remember that the ruler of the sn has been the facilitator for that kind of identity - in total it provides greater context for what kind of identity that was created in the past, and thus what kinds of emotional memories are being carried from the past into the current life.

The ruler of the sn, in combination with the sn itself, describes the basic egocentric structure the soul had created in prior lives that has serves as the focusing agent for the desires of the soul.

For those who still wish to post on just the south node, feel free to do so - or you may just choose to include the sn and its ruler at this point.

There's obviously no time limit for these posts - however so as to be constrictive and intentional, please let me know if you intend to post.
With love,
Ari Moshe

Hi Ari,

I have a question about how we think about the ruler (11th house) in comparison to the 12th where the sn is...does the ruler carry greater weight than the 12th?  Or, are we just adding subtle shades of color to a basic portrait (12th/2nd Pluto) which has already been painted?.....let me know if you don't understand the question....I am just trying to figure out a little more clearly what is actually meant by the "facilitator".  Thanks.

Kora

Hi Kora, thanks for your question.
A way to think of it is that every sign is naturally conditioned by its planetary ruler. So if there is any activity happening in the 12th house, then the ruler of that sign,its placement and aspects, give us more information regarding the actual nature of that 12th house.

In this case we are looking at the sn, which signifies a past mode of operation - a prior life ego nature, within which is contained all kinds of soul memories that are being brought forth into the current life. The ruler of this south node provides more context for how that identity was shaped - it fills in the details.

So with the chart we are working with here the sn in the 12th has a general correlation with an identity that has been focused upon finding ultimate, higher meaning in life, and along with that disillusionment. How and where has that specifically occurred? The answer will be through all 11th house associations.

On page 13, in the first chapter in the "Pluto and the nodal axis" section Jeff Green gives a basic definition of planetary rulership relative to the nodes and offers an example. Please feel free to continue to ask about this in whatever way you need to. And of course any effort will be met with feedback.

With love,
Ari Moshe

Very helpful response, Ari.  Thank you so much.

Kora

Hi Ari,

I intend to post on the ruler of the sn in the 11th.

Thank you for hosting this thread.

-Emily

Hello, 

Here's my attempt:

Pluto 2nd, South Node 12th, Planetary Ruler 11th:

Putting the ruler of the 12th house south node in the 11th house would, I think, signify that this soul definitely could have been involved in a spiritual community which somehow blocked its evolution.  Or perhaps the soul felt so different and unable to relate to society and other people that it completely withdrew into its own dream world. 

Perhaps the soul had dreams of an ideal society which it tried to live out but failed because other people did not share the vision or it wasn't really relevant to the needs of the society at large. 
Would the ruler in the 11th house show that the soul would have been trying to manifest its dreams from a very detached place?  Where there would have been more success if the dreams were linked to more of the actual context of the world the soul was living in?  And were coming from a place of openness and connectedness with other people (and other people's resources?).

I think that the ruler in the 11th could also signify that the soul experienced the disillusionment it faced as significantly traumatic.  When all of the soul's energy was directed towards something that ultimately ends up completely losing meaning for it, the consequence could have been extreme.  Perhaps linked to survival itself.

-Emily

Hi Emily,

QuotePluto 2nd, South Node 12th, Planetary Ruler 11th:

Putting the ruler of the 12th house south node in the 11th house would, I think, signify that this soul definitely could have been involved in a spiritual community which somehow blocked its evolution.  Or perhaps the soul felt so different and unable to relate to society and other people that it completely withdrew into its own dream world. 

Perhaps the soul had dreams of an ideal society which it tried to live out but failed because other people did not share the vision or it wasn't really relevant to the needs of the society at large. 

Would the ruler in the 11th house show that the soul would have been trying to manifest its dreams from a very detached place?

Yes that could definitely be.

Where there would have been more success if the dreams were linked to more of the actual context of the world the soul was living in?  And were coming from a place of openness and connectedness with other people (and other people's resources?).

It's not so much about success - whether this society, or way of life worked out or not. It will be about liberation from constricting ways and where this soul feels alienated, disconnected from other people, and the ways in which this soul deals with that disconnect.

With Pluto in the 2nd house, the bottom line here is this soul is simply limited in terms of the possibilities it will see. So it can become incredibly isolated and narrow in its dreams about how the world should be, what its community should look like etc. This will create disillusionment by way of loneliness, not fitting in, frustration with other human beings, not being accepted into groups that this soul may have totally believed in etc. Sn in the 12 with its ruler in the 11th can imply an underlying naivete about other people - just assuming that others will also want the same utopian ideals and then being "dooped" by others or let down when others do not match up that those assumed ideals.

I think that the ruler in the 11th could also signify that the soul experienced the disillusionment it faced as significantly traumatic.  When all of the soul's energy was directed towards something that ultimately ends up completely losing meaning for it, the consequence could have been extreme.  Perhaps linked to survival itself.

Excellent that is right. This soul would then be forced deep within itself in order to ultimately seek the "why" behind the limitations it is experiencing.

Great ea work Emily! You have applied the synthesis of Pluto, the sn and its ruler accurately. The only thing I'd correct here is what you wrote about being a part of a spiritual community. If you mean spiritual state kind of spiritual community, that would not be likely - though of course its possible that this soul may be a part of something like that at times for whatever reasons.

The kinds of communities this soul will involve in can really be anything - however to this soul these communities will be something that symbolizes some sort of higher transcendent meaning that makes sense at that level of evolution. That's the main correlations here.

With love, am

Hi Ari,

Thank you for the clarifications.

-Emily

Hi Ari,

Just wanted to let you know that I have needed to by away from the thread for a while due to focusing on some personal matters.  I hope to be back soon however please do not wait for me if you are ready to move on.  I intend to post at some point and will catch up if you've moved on.  Thanks.

Kora

Hi everyone,

What I have decided to do, since the natural rhythm of this thread is slow moving, is to offer the entire paradigm of this current chart all at once.

What I'd like to invite everyone to do is to interpret this according to your capacity and at your own pace. For example, if at this point you would like to continue to practice this chart step by step, then you may wish to add the north node only by house, then the north node ruler only by house, then only the signs, then the planets etc.

Basically everyone will choose their own pace. My only advice is that you only interpret what you know. And remember that the value is always in the effort - not in the quantity or degree of complexity. As always feel free to ask any questions along the way.

At this point I will offer feedback on a post by post basis.

The complete paradigm we are working with is:
Male, second stage individuated moving into third. Pluto in early degree Virgo in the 2nd house. South node in late degree Cancer in the 12th, the Moon in early Cancer in the 11th (not conjunct the south node), Saturn in early degree Taurus in the 9th. North node in Capricorn in the 6th. For those that wish to work with aspects, there is a skipped step with Saturn.

Let me know if you intend to continue in this way.
With love,
Ari Moshe

Hi Ari and all,

My heavy Virgo signature is telling me that I could do so much more if I appied my self wholeheartedly to the task. We have a 20 month old daughter and as all parents know, this is a time in which much focus is spent on daily routines and a lot of child infectiones.

I think your approach Ari is brilliant and I prey that I can participate to the best of my ability.

Don't know if this answer is a clear response, but I will try to contribute...

From my heart...thank you!!!

/Henrik

Hello Ari and group,

I still plan to post but have had my energy taken up by my work and life- I've had a post about the 12th house on the cusp of posting for awhile and just need to finish it up- I may end up doing this in stages if that is okay because if I now attempt to do everything at once it will take even longer.  So i'll probably go step by step- I should be starting to have more time soon.

I hope we can get this going again!
blessings,
Gray

Hi Ari and all.

Here is my attempt at:

Pluto in 2nd house, Sn in 12th house transition to 3rd sub stage individuated

The bottom line is the Pluto position in the 2nd house, which in the beginning correlates to discovering and internalizing resources/talents and values in order to sustain themselves and which at some point correlates to stagnation/crystallization of boundaries that have/is limiting the Soul from evolving further. The Sn in the 12th house provides context to how this had been actualized. Keeping in mind that the Soul comes from 2nd sub stage individuated where they have rebelled against all consensus beliefs in society in order to become objective (and thus coming closer to the very core of their individuality) while also learning how to identify and make concrete new personal values and needs in order to develop self-sufficiency and self-reliance (Pluto 2nd house). Since the Soul is in transition to the 3rd sub stage individuated, it has started to mentally focusing on how certain areas of it's identity is at odds with main stream society, and why. So how has the Sn in 12th house helped actualize the Soul's desire to form new values and to ground it's identity around these new values? Having come from the 2nd sub stage individuated, the Soul is individualizing and thus gaining perspective that is not limited on the views accepted by the main stream. The Soul is coming from a series of lives in which its self-image and ego has been heavily influenced by inspiration received in the form of dreams or other receptive states where images have appeared of their own accord. The intention has been to infuse the Soul with ideas and principles that is not a product of consensus beliefs. How the person has integrated these ideas into their mind in the past has set in motion a wide range of possibilities.
So why have the Soul chosen the Sn in the 12th house? One answer could be that by coming from a 12th house orientation, the aim was to infuse the Soul with an egocentric structure that allowed for a receptive state which would allow for timeless principles and ideas to appear and then incorporating these ideas into the very basis of the Soul. Obviously, during the course of many lives, the fixity of the evolutionary state and the Pluto position could have meant that these ideas could have been taken in through the limiting context of the Soul. Thus, the principles sensed in those receptive states, never really translated into the real world or mind of the person as perfect as they appeared in those states. In this life, the Soul choose to be born and raised within a predominately religious community, the reason being to propel it's evolution. A 2nd sub stage individual would probably just leave this community as soon as it became old enough. The challenge for this individual is to learn how to operate within restrictions such as this in order to begin the journey back to society in a constructive way.

Images of idealized nature (12th house) as to what values (Pluto in the 2nd) should be important in society (2nd sub stage ind.) could have been one way these three dynamics could have taken form in this person's mind in the past. Being in the 2nd sub stage individuated, the fact that people and the society, in general, did not share these values would of course reinforce the feeling of being alienated from the mainstream society. Moral judgment (going both ways) could have possibly been the result from such an idealized standpoint and could have limited the perspective of the Soul. The images received may not have been wrong necessarily, but the illusion that they would be instantaneously received as universally accepted was. Also, the proper discrimination as to what to do with these images and ideas and how and in what form to spread them could have been a problem with this egocentric structure. Blending Pluto in the 2nd house archetype with the evolutionary station could mean righteous beliefs projected onto the mainstream, resulting in isolation.

With Sn in the 12th house, we have the theme of the Soul who in the past has had cycles of clarity followed (at some point) by disillusion (leaving a void) followed by revelation etc. This is because the Moon represents our conscious emotional security pattern and the 12th house/Pisces deals with the transcendental impulse that dissolves anything that prevents the path to the source or ultimate meaning for the individual. Both are water and Yang, with Moon correlating to cardinal energy and 12th house correlating to mutable energy. So in every life, the individual has come in with a way of emotionally experiencing its self-image and daily life that is familiar from the past. However, with Sn in the 12th house, this self-image is often diffuse and the way a Moon in Pisces operates is by feeling and reproducing what's around them and this may lead them to lose sight of what is themself-vs. what they have taken in that is not their own, on an emotional basis. This combination may have led them to project a self-image linked to what provides their ultimate something. If this self-image -and what provides that ultimate meaning- is at odds with realizing the timeless and/or the Source, then at some point the resistance to the evolutionary impulses will dissolve the foundation on which they have built their most cherished beliefs. Another way the Sn in the 12th house could operate is through idealism. They simply could have acted as if all people could "feel" the way they do and been confronted at certain times with the fact that this is not so. So we have the Pluto in the 2nd house person, sensing some universal idea/principle (in a limited way) and then being disillusioned (Sn in the 12th house) when society did not match these expectations, which then turned the person into isolation.
The negative side of Pisces is that they can delude others to believe in their own delusions because they project such delusions with such sincerity; they actually believe the delusion to be real. The way that Pisces operates is that at some point the forces will begin to dissolve their view of what constitutes meaning in their life because they have taken in a view that is leading them away from the source. When this begins to happen it can be very difficult to adapt because there is nothing to replace what is being dissolved and instead they may actually hold on to something in their current reality to the bitter end. In these cases, the values and the identity that is subconsciously stored within the Soul will be what the person will rely on, thus again they will be thrown back into their own isolation.

With Sn in the 12th house there may have been a series of lifetimes in which the individual has had a hard time projecting clear self-images or (by compensation) has created the ultimate meaning to itself in something.  This person could come from a series of lives where they have at times received images from either dreams or other states where these images have just sort of appeared in their consciousness and during the course of time, these images have been consolidated and given purpose to the 2nd house Pluto person. This could have led to delusions of how this person viewed the world and their place in it. The values that the person had internalized would be very different from the way this person experienced feedback from the consensus world. It could have been the case where the person saw the potential of how perfect the world could be, and not being able to reconcile it with how the world actually is. Thus, instead of taking steps to gradually/daily affect its surroundings (Nn in the 6th house), the person would instead remain in their illusions of how things ought to be (2nd stage individuated). If the way things ought to be took hold of this person, this would have provided the Soul and each individual with emotional security in each life in the past. From time to time, an emotional shock has been necessary that has left the individual in an existential void. When you mix the archetypes of Moon and Pisces, the temptation to create an illusion to provide emotional security must be tremendous? After all, Pisces often correlates to faith and sometimes to the self-generated illusion that has been built and built upon by the Soul/individual. When you have a diffused self-image, the importance of what you feel is real must be incredible? Add to that a 2nd house Pluto, which internalizes such beliefs and values"¦at some point the person will at times be faced with the shock of disillusionment.
Disillusion is painful is because we have projected the ultimate meaning on something or some idea and through the 2nd house Pluto we may have consolidated values coupled with this ultimate something. When that something turns out to be wrong there will be an emotional shock.
At some point the PPP (8th house) will necessitate that the person will be confronted with other ways of being in order to induce a self-analysis of why they identify with certain values (for example) and how these values limit them from a greater understanding. The PPP activation will probably follow a series of confrontations with other people and society at large and it is only once the person realizes that change is absolutely necessary that the polarity point will start to be activated. Once they realize this, the PPP will demand that this person merges with something or someone else in order to expand on its values, needs and/or self-image. Also, there might be lessons in how to merge their resources with others in order to achieve certain goals. In tandem, the Nn will be activated once they realize that to create an ideal world starts with the proper discrimination of how to act and incorporate new ideas into our surroundings. Self-analysis (Nn in 6th) of how their own values and identity are limited (PPP in the 8th) is key in this life. Once this process is allowed to begin, the infinite side of the 12th house will find a constructive vehicle (6th house) through which the person can integrate the ideas and energies that seem to come out of nowhere. This process will also allow the person to accelerate it's journey back to society and to realize that to interact with people from all levels of evolution, on a daily basis, does not equal loosing it's own individuality.

The Nn in the 6th house, once activated would teach them that one way to live the ideals is to be of service in a tangible way; perhaps even mundane and that change is a gradual thing. The PPP in the 8th house will at times ensure that key people will teach the person the value of sharing resources in order to achieve goals so that ideas that may be too idealistic may be transformed in ways that is acceptable to society. This would be the beginning of leaving the 2nd sub stage individuated and starting the journey towards the 3rd sub stage. 

This is what I have come up with so far.

God/ess bless,
Henrik

Hi Henrik, how exciting to see your post. I'm traveling right now, so will create the space to look at what you wrote sometime later this week.
With love
Ari Moshe

Hi Henrik,
I'm very grateful for your efforts here. Thank you for your work. I feel you have a very clear understanding of the ea dynamics in the signatures we are working with here.

QuotePluto in 2nd house, Sn in 12th house transition to 3rd sub stage individuated

The bottom line is the Pluto position in the 2nd house, which in the beginning correlates to discovering and internalizing resources/talents and values in order to sustain themselves and which at some point correlates to stagnation/crystallization of boundaries that have/is limiting the Soul from evolving further.

The Sn in the 12th house provides context to how this had been actualized. Keeping in mind that the Soul comes from 2nd sub stage individuated where they have rebelled against all consensus beliefs in society in order to become objective (and thus coming closer to the very core of their individuality) while also learning how to identify and make concrete new personal values and needs in order to develop self-sufficiency and self-reliance (Pluto 2nd house). Since the Soul is in transition to the 3rd sub stage individuated, it has started to mentally focusing on how certain areas of it's identity is at odds with main stream society, and why. So how has the Sn in 12th house helped actualize the Soul's desire to form new values and to ground it's identity around these new values? Having come from the 2nd sub stage individuated, the Soul is individualizing and thus gaining perspective that is not limited on the views accepted by the main stream. The Soul is coming from a series of lives in which its self-image and ego has been heavily influenced by inspiration received in the form of dreams or other receptive states where images have appeared of their own accord.

This also may just be any source of inspiration that the soul has linked to a higher and ultimate meaning. It's not necessarily dreams or images that have appeared on their own accord.

The intention has been to infuse the Soul with ideas and principles that is not a product of consensus beliefs. How the person has integrated these ideas into their mind in the past has set in motion a wide range of possibilities.

So why have the Soul chosen the Sn in the 12th house?

What you write below is accurate, however I just want to clarity that the direct answer to the question "why this sn" is always Pluto.

One answer could be that by coming from a 12th house orientation, the aim was to infuse the Soul with an egocentric structure that allowed for a receptive state which would allow for timeless principles and ideas to appear and then incorporating these ideas into the very basis of the Soul.

Obviously, during the course of many lives, the fixity of the evolutionary state and the Pluto position could have meant that these ideas could have been taken in through the limiting context of the Soul. Thus, the principles sensed in those receptive states, never really translated into the real world or mind of the person as perfect as they appeared in those states.

In this life, the Soul choose to be born and raised within a predominately religious community, the reason being to propel it's evolution. A 2nd sub stage individual would probably just leave this community as soon as it became old enough. The challenge for this individual is to learn how to operate within restrictions such as this in order to begin the journey back to society in a constructive way.

Images of idealized nature (12th house) as to what values (Pluto in the 2nd) should be important in society (2nd sub stage ind.) could have been one way these three dynamics could have taken form in this person's mind in the past. Being in the 2nd sub stage individuated, the fact that people and the society, in general, did not share these values would of course reinforce the feeling of being alienated from the mainstream society. Moral judgment (going both ways) could have possibly been the result from such an idealized standpoint and could have limited the perspective of the Soul.

Moral judment is a Satrun/Capricorn/10th house thing.

The images received may not have been wrong necessarily, but the illusion that they would be instantaneously received as universally accepted was.

We can't know this. Such assumptions, to me, correlate most strongly to Sag: "my truth, the way I see things is the way everyone also sees things, or would want to if they only knew what I knew".

Also, the proper discrimination as to what to do with these images and ideas and how and in what form to spread them could have been a problem with this egocentric structure.

I sense your combining Sag with Pisces here. There's nothing in this guys chart so far that would imply anything about the spreading of his ideas.


Blending Pluto in the 2nd house archetype with the evolutionary station could mean righteous beliefs projected onto the mainstream, resulting in isolation.

If some strong Sag and maybe Capricorn signatures were included in the mix.

With Sn in the 12th house, we have the theme of the Soul who in the past has had cycles of clarity followed (at some point) by disillusion (leaving a void) followed by revelation etc. This is because the Moon represents our conscious emotional security pattern and the 12th house/Pisces deals with the transcendental impulse that dissolves anything that prevents the path to the source or ultimate meaning for the individual. Both are water and Yang, with Moon correlating to cardinal energy and 12th house correlating to mutable energy. So in every life, the individual has come in with a way of emotionally experiencing its self-image and daily life that is familiar from the past. However, with Sn in the 12th house, this self-image is often diffuse and the way a Moon in Pisces operates is by feeling and reproducing what's around them and this may lead them to lose sight of what is themself-vs. what they have taken in that is not their own, on an emotional basis. This combination may have led them to project a self-image linked to what provides their ultimate something. If this self-image -and what provides that ultimate meaning- is at odds with realizing the timeless and/or the Source, then at some point the resistance to the evolutionary impulses will dissolve the foundation on which they have built their most cherished beliefs.

This is excellent and really well stated! What you just wrote is really the root of it.

Another way the Sn in the 12th house could operate is through idealism. They simply could have acted as if all people could "feel" the way they do and been confronted at certain times with the fact that this is not so. So we have the Pluto in the 2nd house person, sensing some universal idea/principle (in a limited way) and then being disillusioned (Sn in the 12th house) when society did not match these expectations, which then turned the person into isolation.

The soul could also end up feeling duped on a cyclic basis when it gets itself into situations where it becomes dependent upon other people's resources/values because of blindly trusted them. This could be as encompassing as an entire lifestyle. In the end the 2nd house Pluto implies that there would be resistance to changing that as there would be a dependency upon this dream reality - until it gets to the point that this soul feels totally duped or victimized by circumstances.

The negative side of Pisces is that they can delude others to believe in their own delusions because they project such delusions with such sincerity; they actually believe the delusion to be real. The way that Pisces operates is that at some point the forces will begin to dissolve their view of what constitutes meaning in their life because they have taken in a view that is leading them away from the source. When this begins to happen it can be very difficult to adapt because there is nothing to replace what is being dissolved and instead they may actually hold on to something in their current reality to the bitter end. In these cases, the values and the identity that is subconsciously stored within the Soul will be what the person will rely on, thus again they will be thrown back into their own isolation.

Beautiful

With Sn in the 12th house there may have been a series of lifetimes in which the individual has had a hard time projecting clear self-images or (by compensation) has created the ultimate meaning to itself in something.  This person could come from a series of lives where they have at times received images from either dreams or other states where these images have just sort of appeared in their consciousness and during the course of time, these images have been consolidated and given purpose to the 2nd house Pluto person.

There are many possibilities for how the soul has found what it considers to be ultimate meaning in life. Whether its dreams or images, a book, or a rally the soul attended - in the end the soul's world from the bottom of the well has been defined by a yearning to connect to what the soul has identified as the transcendent/higher meaning in life.

This could have led to delusions of how this person viewed the world and their place in it. The values that the person had internalized would be very different from the way this person experienced feedback from the consensus world. It could have been the case where the person saw the potential of how perfect the world could be, and not being able to reconcile it with how the world actually is.

Excellent. The main issue with 12th house is where actual reality is usually at odds with our delusion of what reality is. Until the soul realizes that reality is not going to change to conform to what it thinks things should be, then there could be an element of suffering, isolation, feeling stuck - or on the other extreme living in a total dream reality so as to protect oneself from the way things actually are.

Thus, instead of taking steps to gradually/daily affect its surroundings (Nn in the 6th house), the person would instead remain in their illusions of how things ought to be (2nd stage individuated). If the way things ought to be took hold of this person, this would have provided the Soul and each individual with emotional security in each life in the past. From time to time, an emotional shock has been necessary that has left the individual in an existential void. When you mix the archetypes of Moon and Pisces, the temptation to create an illusion to provide emotional security must be tremendous?

Yes

After all, Pisces often correlates to faith and sometimes to the self-generated illusion that has been built and built upon by the Soul/individual. When you have a diffused self-image, the importance of what you feel is real must be incredible? Add to that a 2nd house Pluto, which internalizes such beliefs and values"¦at some point the person will at times be faced with the shock of disillusionment.

This is great work Henrik. I feel you are getting the essence of it. Since the core issue with a 2nd house Pluto will be self esteem linked to what is known and familiar - the soul may create a deep deep emotional dependency on his delusion since relative to the 2nd house, he will be totally insecure without it.

Disillusion is painful is because we have projected the ultimate meaning on something or some idea and through the 2nd house Pluto we may have consolidated values coupled with this ultimate something. When that something turns out to be wrong there will be an emotional shock.
At some point the PPP (8th house) will necessitate that the person will be confronted with other ways of being in order to induce a self-analysis of why they identify with certain values (for example) and how these values limit them from a greater understanding. The PPP activation will probably follow a series of confrontations with other people and society at large and it is only once the person realizes that change is absolutely necessary that the polarity point will start to be activated.

Beautiful

Once they realize this, the PPP will demand that this person merges with something or someone else in order to expand on its values, needs and/or self-image. Also, there might be lessons in how to merge their resources with others in order to achieve certain goals. In tandem, the Nn will be activated once they realize that to create an ideal world starts with the proper discrimination of how to act and incorporate new ideas into our surroundings. Self-analysis (Nn in 6th) of how their own values and identity are limited (PPP in the 8th) is key in this life. Once this process is allowed to begin, the infinite side of the 12th house will find a constructive vehicle (6th house) through which the person can integrate the ideas and energies that seem to come out of nowhere. This process will also allow the person to accelerate it's journey back to society and to realize that to interact with people from all levels of evolution, on a daily basis, does not equal loosing it's own individuality.

The Nn in the 6th house, once activated would teach them that one way to live the ideals is to be of service in a tangible way; perhaps even mundane and that change is a gradual thing. The PPP in the 8th house will at times ensure that key people will teach the person the value of sharing resources in order to achieve goals so that ideas that may be too idealistic may be transformed in ways that is acceptable to society. This would be the beginning of leaving the 2nd sub stage individuated and starting the journey towards the 3rd sub stage. 

This is what I have come up with so far.

With much love,
Ari Moshe

Hi Ari,

Thank you so much for this opportunity and your feedback. It means so much. I will contenplate on your comments.

God/ess bless,
Henrik