School of Evolutionary Astrology Forum

Water / Yin / Cardinal 4th house, ruled by the Moon

Cancer represents the Ego.  In Aries I experienced my instinctive, becoming nature.  In Taurus I developed my values and sense of meaning.  In Gemini I learned about and classified the outer reality within which I function.  And in Cancer I give myself personal form, name, and identity - who I am, and how I think.  I acknowledge myself as distinct from all other beings.  I become consciously aware of myself as a subjective self.  THIS is who I am.

An Ego is necessary. An Ego is a vortex of energy within consciousness, the lens in the projector through which the movie of the Soul can be seen.  The point is not to LOSE one's ego, but rather to re-identify one's ego. Most of us are almost completely identified with Who I Am as a separate and unique ego that has a name and a form; that was born and will die.  The goal of evolution, over great lengths of time, is to cause us to re-identify Who I Am with the CAUSE of the Ego, with that which created the ego in the first place - the Soul, rather than with the Ego itself.

The ego is self-image - how we see ourselves inwardly, not how others see us.  That is related to the Ascendant and the Descendant.

The 4th house is naturally square to both the 1st house - Aries - and the 7th house - Libra. Libra represents extremes, and in Aries we have the extreme of the Ego identifying itself as a separate being, with no connection to any other being.  This can cause the ego, through Mars, to dominate and to impose its will on others.

The sign on the 4th house, the planetary ruler of the 4th house, the location of Cancer and the aspects it makes, the location of the Moon and the aspects it makes point out the structure of the personality and self image, and the nature of the emotional dynamics.

The Moon correlates to the nature of our early childhood environment and parental conditions, which the child imprints wholesale.  This thoroughly shapes the sense of self. The evolutionary issue becomes "˜Why did the Soul pick that environment - what were the evolutionary necessities it was attempting to deal with?'

The Moon connects to emotional reality.  Feelings are a Venus function.  They are the immediate reaction to existing stimulus.  Emotions are a reaction to our feelings.  How often do we react in a less than ideal way to something that triggers us, even though our feelings and our beliefs can understand and even agree with what has happened.  Yet our emotions are our reaction to those feelings.

Cancer represents our need for security, particularly the security of home and family.  Yet its ultimate teaching is that the only true security is within us, in our relationship to God or the Cosmos, not to anything external.  Everything in our society teaches us that security is outside of my self, in things and in others. Yet ultimately everything outside of myself can and probably will be eventually removed from my life.  Over identification with anything external tends to lead to a life crisis in which it is suddenly removed from my life. The point of this is to remind me that the only real security is internal.

You can determine a person's ability to adapt to change by looking at the sign on the 4th house, and the house and sign that the Moon is in.  If you see mostly fixed signs (Taurus, Leo, Scorpio, Aquarius), the person may have a problem adapting to change.

As a cardinal sign, it indicates that a new cycle is beginning (as do Aries, Libra, and Capricorn).  The lesson here has been learning that security is internal and not found in parents, job, lover, home, etc.  They have been learning how to create their own emotional security from within.  Since this is a new cycle, most of them have not yet finished learning this lesson.  So most are born into difficult family situations.  One or both parents do not give the child what any child needs.  Thus their emotional needs are unfulfilled.  This forces the child back in on its own self, and they realize early on that they are going to have to learn to fulfill their own needs or those needs are not going to be fulfilled.  Because of the nature of the Moon and the 4th house, these lessons are all within the emotional structure of the children.

This is a very difficult environment for a child.  Most of these people have had a series of past lives in similar conditions.  Often they have prior life unresolved karma with one or both of the parents.  They are born with subconscious memories of these prior encounters.

Although they are not conscious of them, these past emotional patterns color the interaction between both the parent and the child.  They will feel unappreciated, misunderstood, and/or insufficiently nurtured.  This situation creates intense emotional needs and intense emotions. They have an unconscious expectation that the parents should meet these needs.  The child's experience may be very different than the parent's experience, of the same situation.

They arrive with an inherent insecurity, and it creates a situation that no amount of nurturing can ever completely fill their need.  Sometimes the parent has a legitimate reason for the situation, such as work requirements, etc.  Yet the child does not understand this and only feels that the parent is not meeting its needs. This feeling triggers the past life memories, and they trigger the intense emotional states.  In effect, the feelings and emotions the child experiences are not even from the present life experience but are unresolved feelings carried in from the past.

This can also manifest in some cases as a parent who totally dominates the child's life and does not allow the child to grow up.  The parent is relating only to his or her own emotional needs, not to the child's.  Or the parent can be cruel or abusive.  The effect is the same - the child is thrown back upon itself as the only way to get its needs met.

Because the child cannot generally process these intense emotions, they are often repressed. They appear in adult life as displaced emotions, bursting forth in relationships and romances in situations that trigger the old feelings.  In effect they will still be attempting to get their unresolved childhood emotional needs met through others.   They project this need, and the expectation that others should fulfill the need, onto others.

In romances they draw partners with psychological make-ups similar to one or both of the parents.   The unconscious need is again to resolve the old stuff and have their emotional needs met. Because the nature of the partner is similar to the nature of the parent(s), the needs are still not met, and once again they are thrown back in on themselves.  Needless to say, they may not be very happy about this state of affairs, which can have an effect on the relationship.

Gradually they begin to understand WHY this keeps happening.  They begin to learn how to supply their own emotional needs and internal security.  Until then they often attempt to emotionally manipulate others into fulfilling their childlike needs.

Some have a deep fear of emotional vulnerability.  All have sensitive and touchy emotions. Some resort to stuffing their emotions and living in denial of them to avoid the pain of continual removal of emotional dependencies.  Those who have repressed tend to draw people to them whom they can emotionally dominate, typically people in need of some form of emotional healing.  They attempt to make themselves indispensable in the person's life, both as a way to create emotional security for themselves, and as a way to feel "˜better than' someone else. They can take out the repressed anger and rage they feel towards the parent(s) on the partners or other people in their lives.

Through being dominant they maintain their relationship and feel secure. Yet still their deepest needs for nurturing are unfulfilled because the partner is too wounded to fulfill those needs.

All 4th house Pluto people experience a wide range of emotions in an intense way - everything is deeply felt.  The moods are often triggered from an external experience. These swings can be as confusing to the person as they are to those who experience them. These intense states are, in fact, necessary, because they lead to self-knowledge and ultimately inner security.  If they attempt to understand WHY these things are happening, it can lead to deep understanding of emotional dynamics.

They have two distinct emotional cycles.  In one they are withdrawn and want to be left alone.  In the other they become animated and outwardly directed.  The two cycles are inconsistent and can change at any moment. They need people around them who understand that they fluctuate between these two cycles, and that both are necessary.

4th house and 10th house Pluto often relates to recent gender switch, in this or a very recent lifetime.   Because the gender assignment is so new, many of them feel insecurity in their current gender.  It may not feel quite natural.  There are many emotional and hormonal differences between being a male and being a female, and the past life thought patterns and emotions would be associated with the other gender.

These people are learning to know and trust themselves so they can know and trust others. A few born with 4th house Pluto will already have learned to be inwardly secure and will not be subject to most of these conditions.


Pluto Polarity Point - 10th House / Capricorn

The intent here is learning to accept responsibility for one's actions, emotional maturity, how to integrate one's personality into society.  These learnings will occur through work and career.   Through this they can get out of victim mode and realize that the conditions of their childhood were necessary for their evolution, that even the lack of nurturing from the parental figures was required.  Thus, blame will dissolve and their will be a greater acceptance of the larger view of life and evolution.

Through establishing them self in the work arena they will gradually gain control over the emotional swings.  The moods will still come and go but they will be less extreme.

Their emotional empathy for others helps others to understand their own natures.  They will be encouraging others to accept responsibility for their own actions and lives, help them minimize their emotional dependencies, and help them to understand the nature of their emotional blocks.


Common 4th house Pluto characteristics - emotionally intense and demanding, cycles of depression and optimism, can be emotionally manipulative, insecure, defensive, intensely loyal, need to control their space, easily threatened, potentially cruel mean or vindictive in negative cycles and empathetic, sympathetic, and nurturing in positive cycles.


[Cancer notes taken from Jeffrey Wolf Green's Pluto Vol. I and the EA school course]

Cancer  -  4th House  -  Moon

Ego Womb Childhood Children Home Roots Security Protection Early Environment

Mother Family Clan Ancestors Inner space                    Nurturing Protection Neglect

Helpless Needs Emotions Self Image Touchy Subjective Gender Roles Housewife/husband

[From P. Walsh, EA Archetypes]

Nice to see you back, Linda!

Thanks Ellen - it's nice to be back.  Glad to see you're here too!  I've understandably been low on energy over the past few months, but now wish to take up where I left off.

We only have one more archetype thread to go:  Leo.  I will be using the information from Jeffrey Wolf Green's Pluto I and the School's Course for new people reading the messageboard.  Some of these notes are the foundation upon which EA is based, and are filled with truth and meaning.

Since I have my Pluto Polarity Point in the 4th house, I would like to share some of my personal experiences and insights.  Having natal Pluto in the 10th house could be interpreted in a number of ways, but one interpretation was that I was financially and emotionally supported by my father (now passed).  He was of the Pluto/Cancer generation.  I only discovered that being my main nurturer was an absolute reality after he passed, but I had suspected it before.  When death comes along (Cancer womb to tomb) then the emotions and the meaning behind them are more deeply understood in the context of the evolutionary dynamics.

Aquarius is the sign in my 4th house which contains Chiron, Black Moon Lilith and Juno, and to me this means that I have been liberating myself from outdated family structures, while at the same time being able to be of service through healing family issues (Chiron), applying myself to the ongoing study of astrology (Aquarius), being a natural woman (BML), and learning how to be emotionally self-reliant within a self-sufficient relationship (Juno).

The development of emotional self-reliance has been the biggest lesson in my life, and it continues to be so.  On an intellectual level (Aquarius 4th) I am working consciously with my Soul's current intention to evolve back to a "natural" state of emotional self-security where I would minimize dependency on just about anyone or anything.  I live alone, and try my hardest not to get too emotionally entangled with others as this had been a pattern earlier on. 

Evolutionary Astrology has been wonderful in allowing me to realize and understand that emotional self-security is a natural state (my Cancer Moon is in the 9th house), that I need to love myself first before I can expect others to love me, and that I can continue to support and nurture others when needed through the healing powers of Chiron 4th.

Cancer rules all organs in the body that contain water, such as uterus, liver, spleen, eyes, breasts, etc.  I've had uterine problems for 25 years, and now that Neptune is almost finished its transit through my 4th house, these problems are spontaneously healing.  Dependencies have dissolved through the experience of disillusionment and loss of relationships but these experiences were necessary in the return to Source.  Nothing can take the place of Source, and nothing will.  The right course of action is self-nurturance within oneself so that emotional balance and undistorted self-image can be restored.

Another general insight I've had relates to the evolutionary states.  In the Consensus evolutionary condition, relationships are co-dependent, and therefore this could very well mean that marriage partners could expect their emotional needs to be met by the other, and not by themselves.  In the Individuated evolutionary condition there is a need for freedom and independence, so the emotions would be more detached and distant, and partners would be more likely to give each other space.   In the Spiritual evolutionary condition, the emotions would flow freely as a natural expression, and spiritual service would be offered through nurturing and caring for others.

If anyone would wish to share their insights on how the Cancer archetype operates, please do.

Linda,

That is beautiful.  Thank you so much for sharing some of your own personal story and journey and insights that have arisen from that.  What a lovely, poignant testament to Cancer.

I wanted to share something from my own experience that has been a very profound experience for me in my life over the last year and has given me insight into Cancer that has surprised me.  (I have SN in 4th along with Sun/Mars/Mercury Rx - all in Cap.)  JWG mentioned very briefly (I didn't fully read your 1st post, Linda, so if you mentioned this and I didn't acknowledge it please forgive me; my time is a little limited right now and I wanted to be sure to read your most recent post) - so JWG mentioned that everyone with an emphasized Cancer archetype needs to feel understood at an emotional level by at least one other.  In my experience, I have found that in having this very experience, of someone truly communicating understanding - truly loving me and truly loving me unconditionally and never once, for even a second, fostering dependency - it has helped and continues to help to shift my way of relating to myself and the self-image I have lived with.  And so much of the rage that I have carried within me is diffusing (truly, finally), particularly with regard to issues around my experience of being gay and I suppose also gender identity issues/experiences.  But I think it is a tricky line - to not teeter over into dependency, and in my case this woman is a healer and so there is a professional boundary (Cap polarity I suppose) that keeps that from happening and she happens to be very, very skillful at maintaining that boundary while at the same time being completely there as a human being conveying love and support.  Ultimately, Cancer HAS to do the inner emotional work, no matter what.  Cancer has to come to its own inner emotional realizations of its inherent worth and lovability..... There's no getting around that.  In terms of security this experience has been profoundly revelatory - who/what we CHOOSE and let in MATTERS.  So part of the emotional journey, for me, is about understanding the impact of our environment (people, places, substances, etc), and then from that understanding, choosing differently if what is there right now does not allow the fostering of self-love and acceptance.  I wanted to share this because I have found this experience to be quite profound and reshaping for me....... I hope it has made sense and that it has contributed in a positive way to this thread that you are tending (thank you for that...)

Much love to you, Linda (and all),
Ellen

Hi Ellen,

Great to hear from you -- your insights are most welcome!

Quote from: Ellen on Jul 05, 2011, 09:40 PMI have SN in 4th along with Sun/Mars/Mercury Rx - all in Cap.)

With the SN in the 4th, the Cancer issues will be operating as the bottom-line dynamics and these will colour every other planet in the chart.  Having so many planets in the 4th house means many opportunities to work on this area, to learn the lessons, and thereby attain growth.

QuoteJWG mentioned that everyone with an emphasized Cancer archetype needs to feel understood at an emotional level by at least one other.

This is the first time I've heard of this, and actually it comes as a relief to learn that the Cancer archetype needs acknowledgement by at least one other person.  With Aquarius in my 4th house, I receive shocks that remind me that love is found within and not without.  Those displaced emotions originate in childhood, and it's not mature to project those emotional needs onto others.  At stressful times though this can happen.

QuoteIn my experience, I have found that in having this very experience, of someone truly communicating understanding - truly loving me and truly loving me unconditionally and never once, for even a second, fostering dependency - it has helped and continues to help to shift my way of relating to myself and the self-image I have lived with.

It must be Ellen that you have succeeded in first loving yourself from within yourself.  Perhaps with the paradoxical archetypes of Cancer and Capricorn in your 4th house, you may be able to integrate the lessons quite well, especially later in life.  I have found an internet friend (my Aquarius 4th) with whom I share a similar experience to you.  It feels great to get those emotional needs fulfilled by that one person, and the rest of the time it's all inner work.

QuoteAnd so much of the rage that I have carried within me is diffusing (truly, finally), particularly with regard to issues around my experience of being gay and I suppose also gender identity issues/experiences.

The Cancer/Capricorn axis refers to a gender switch.  Do you feel you are preparing to move into the opposite gender, or do you think you've been a male for a long time, and have recently switched to the female gender?  Since my Pluto/PPP are in the 10th/4th axis, I feel I am moving toward a switch to the male gender, because I seem to be "too feminine" in this lifetime.

QuoteBut I think it is a tricky line - to not teeter over into dependency, and in my case this woman is a healer and so there is a professional boundary (Cap polarity I suppose) that keeps that from happening and she happens to be very, very skillful at maintaining that boundary while at the same time being completely there as a human being conveying love and support. 

Your fruition, self-sufficient relationship that maintains healthy boundaries would be a very helpful reminder of the lessons of Cancer or the 4th house.

QuoteUltimately, Cancer HAS to do the inner emotional work, no matter what.  Cancer has to come to its own inner emotional realizations of its inherent worth and lovability..... There's no getting around that.

.....or life will force one to do that inner emotional work, depending on the chart. 

QuoteIn terms of security this experience has been profoundly revelatory - who/what we CHOOSE and let in MATTERS.

In using the EA material as a guide, I feel I am making much better choices these days.  But I have attracted a karmic relationship where our Souls have made an agreement to help each other move through the 4th house lessons.  This person has the same Pluto/PPP 10th/4th placements as myself....and he symbolizes someone whom I feel will give me the love that was missing in childhood....  The Cancer archetype can be quite manipulative in order to gain the emotional acceptance that it needs.  I have been eradicating these manipulations in an effort to improve the relationship.  It's a very tricky situation since this relationship could dissolve at any moment (Neptune through the 4th).  I just hope it doesn't end up as a huge shock for me (Aquarius 4th), but if it does, then the lesson was necessary.  I'm not sure whether the Cancer lessons can be learned with another, because they seem to demand so much solitude to do the inner work.

QuoteSo part of the emotional journey, for me, is about understanding the impact of our environment (people, places, substances, etc), and then from that understanding, choosing differently if what is there right now does not allow the fostering of self-love and acceptance. 

Thanks Ellen for sharing your beautiful experiences of self-love.

Quote from: Linda on Jul 06, 2011, 04:48 AM
Hi Ellen,

Great to hear from you -- your insights are most welcome!

Quote from: Ellen on Jul 05, 2011, 09:40 PMI have SN in 4th along with Sun/Mars/Mercury Rx - all in Cap.)

With the SN in the 4th, the Cancer issues will be operating as the bottom-line dynamics and these will colour every other planet in the chart.  

Thanks, Linda.  Hadn't thought of it quite like that but of course true.  Helps me see the chart in a whole different light!

Having so many planets in the 4th house means many opportunities to work on this area, to learn the lessons, and thereby attain growth.
!

QuoteJWG mentioned that everyone with an emphasized Cancer archetype needs to feel understood at an emotional level by at least one other.

This is the first time I've heard of this, and actually it comes as a relief to learn that the Cancer archetype needs acknowledgement by at least one other person.  

Here's the quote I was referring to: "Yet, because the Fourth House person is intrinsically sensitive, vulnerable, and needing to be touched on an emotional level by at least one other, this conditional reaction [the conditional reaction by families and others that so often occurs due to Cancer's tendency to cancel or deny their sensitivity, etc...] guarantees a lifetime (or cycles within a lifetime) of emotional suffocation, nonfulfillment, difficulties and a negative self-image because of the suppression involved." (Pluto v.1, p. 88)

It is such a catch-22!  We have these experiences because of an inner emotional reaction stemming from our own sensitivity, and this very reaction results in the very experiences that prompt us to close down.......!  To me, when I read this, I realized that the solution is to recognize what truly nourishes us and what doesn't, and to say no to that which doesn't and yes to that which does.... Thus we can have BOTH our sensitivity AND what nourishes us........

With Aquarius in my 4th house, I receive shocks that remind me that love is found within and not without.  Those displaced emotions originate in childhood, and it's not mature to project those emotional needs onto others.  At stressful times though this can happen.

QuoteIn my experience, I have found that in having this very experience, of someone truly communicating understanding - truly loving me and truly loving me unconditionally and never once, for even a second, fostering dependency - it has helped and continues to help to shift my way of relating to myself and the self-image I have lived with.

It must be Ellen that you have succeeded in first loving yourself from within yourself.  

I hadn't thought of it that way at all.  So MUCH of the work I'm doing with this person is the work of learning to love myself.  But you're right.  Just the very fact that I kept looking, that I didn't give up re: finding someone who could help, that I kept saying no to the people who couldn't and weren't helping (that I didn't SETTLE) was evidence of my "self-love".  Same with you re: your experience....

Perhaps with the paradoxical archetypes of Cancer and Capricorn in your 4th house, you may be able to integrate the lessons quite well, especially later in life.  

Yes, I think I get to be a kind of disciple (student) of love - inner love......

I have found an internet friend (my Aquarius 4th) with whom I share a similar experience to you.  It feels great to get those emotional needs fulfilled by that one person, and the rest of the time it's all inner work.
Lovely.

QuoteAnd so much of the rage that I have carried within me is diffusing (truly, finally), particularly with regard to issues around my experience of being gay and I suppose also gender identity issues/experiences.

The Cancer/Capricorn axis refers to a gender switch.  Do you feel you are preparing to move into the opposite gender, or do you think you've been a male for a long time, and have recently switched to the female gender?  Since my Pluto/PPP are in the 10th/4th axis, I feel I am moving toward a switch to the male gender, because I seem to be "too feminine" in this lifetime.

That is really interesting to me that you feel that precisely because you are so feminine, you are preparing to switch to the opposite gender, but it makes sense to me.  I feel that I have been male for many lifetimes and frankly I feel that my Soul is male by nature but could be wrong about this.  I feel that I absolutely needed this experience in a female body with all the cultural conditionings that has come with it to undo the distorted beliefs about male superiority, etc that I just took for granted as male.  It saddens me so much to see this belief still carried on the religious beliefs/traditions/practices of our times, even Tibetan Buddhism which has so much to offer.  I FINALLY understand the absolute lie of it and feel I can tune into the Goddess - her representations - and feel truly embraced.

QuoteBut I think it is a tricky line - to not teeter over into dependency, and in my case this woman is a healer and so there is a professional boundary (Cap polarity I suppose) that keeps that from happening and she happens to be very, very skillful at maintaining that boundary while at the same time being completely there as a human being conveying love and support.

Your fruition, self-sufficient relationship that maintains healthy boundaries would be a very helpful reminder of the lessons of Cancer or the 4th house.

QuoteUltimately, Cancer HAS to do the inner emotional work, no matter what.  Cancer has to come to its own inner emotional realizations of its inherent worth and lovability..... There's no getting around that.

.....or life will force one to do that inner emotional work, depending on the chart.

Yes.

QuoteIn terms of security this experience has been profoundly revelatory - who/what we CHOOSE and let in MATTERS.

In using the EA material as a guide, I feel I am making much better choices these days.  But I have attracted a karmic relationship where our Souls have made an agreement to help each other move through the 4th house lessons.  This person has the same Pluto/PPP 10th/4th placements as myself....and he symbolizes someone whom I feel will give me the love that was missing in childhood....  The Cancer archetype can be quite manipulative in order to gain the emotional acceptance that it needs.  I have been eradicating these manipulations in an effort to improve the relationship.  It's a very tricky situation since this relationship could dissolve at any moment (Neptune through the 4th).  I just hope it doesn't end up as a huge shock for me (Aquarius 4th), but if it does, then the lesson was necessary.  I'm not sure whether the Cancer lessons can be learned with another, because they seem to demand so much solitude to do the inner work.

I think if both are truly committed to accepting and loving each other UNCONDITIONALLY, then it is possible.  The key is, are you both truly doing your own work, and are you both truly committed to ALLOWING the other to do their work.  To me, that's the decider.  Neptune IS tricky.  So easy to delude ourselves.  But whatever happens, you will have much from it that will help you grow even more self-loving...

QuoteSo part of the emotional journey, for me, is about understanding the impact of our environment (people, places, substances, etc), and then from that understanding, choosing differently if what is there right now does not allow the fostering of self-love and acceptance.

Thanks Ellen for sharing your beautiful experiences of self-love.

Thanks for your thoughtful feedback, Linda.

Love,
Ellen

Oh, and of course Chiron is moving along with Neptune.  A chance for some very profound healing!

Quote from: Ellen on Jul 06, 2011, 09:28 AM

Quote from: Linda on Jul 06, 2011, 04:48 AM

I'm not sure whether the Cancer lessons can be learned with another, because they seem to demand so much solitude to do the inner work.

I just had another thought on this... I think I agree with that statement, Linda.  But I think the key is not so much in doing WITH the other person but in choosing the people who will (lovingly, unconditionally) give Cancer the space it genuinely needs to do that work, and to be receptive when Cancer is able to be more present - ie, to not judge Cancer for its need to go within and its unpredictability.  So the other would really have to be emotionally self-sufficient also, I'm thinking - or committed to working towards that within the context of the relationship.  I think, if these conditions were present, that Cancer would not feel alone at all, because I think its NEED is to connect with itself.  I don't know if this is right, but your question/comment made me think about it.....


I think if both are truly committed to accepting and loving each other UNCONDITIONALLY, then it is possible.  The key is, are you both truly doing your own work, and are you both truly committed to ALLOWING the other to do their work.  To me, that's the decider.  Neptune IS tricky.  So easy to delude ourselves.  But whatever happens, you will have much from it that will help you grow even more self-loving...



Thanks for your thoughtful feedback, Linda.

Love,
Ellen

Oh, and of course Chiron is moving along with Neptune.  A chance for some very profound healing!

Hi Linda, Ellen, et al,

I realized yesterday this Cancer thread was probably going and thought to add some thoughts and possibly a few charts with strong Cancer themes.  After reading through the thread though, I wanted to contribute my perspective as a natal Pluto 4th house person.

I have been utilizing astrology as a tool to better understand myself for twenty years (extreme childhood issues and soul trauma).  Over those years I have had more readings-sessions than I can count from various astrologers, plus studying the EA model more specifically in the last five years with a few different teachers.  

Of course with traditional astrology there was no awareness of how EA uses Pluto, Nodes, PPP, but even with the EA readings and study, up until a few weeks ago (I had a reading with Steve), did I feel any of them truly relayed what my chart, from a soul level, was expressing.  I have had astrologers tell me to clean up my 'messing 4th house', and another try to get me to comprehend the level of my soul's trauma by yelling at me--astrologer following EA model.  

I have a loaded 4th house (Uranus, Pluto, Venus conjunct) in a grand square with the Nodes and Saturn Chiron in the 10th.  So when we look at the characteristics of Pluto 4th house, all of the aspects have to taken into consideration, thus the need and IMPORTANCE to characterize a soul's chart by looking at the whole picture, which is always emphasized here on the board.  I realize this thread is specific to Cancer, but I wanted to make this point too.

Quote from: Linda on Jul 05, 2011, 05:07 AM
Common 4th house Pluto characteristics - emotionally intense and demanding, cycles of depression and optimism, can be emotionally manipulative, insecure, defensive, intensely loyal, need to control their space, easily threatened, potentially cruel mean or vindictive in negative cycles and empathetic, sympathetic, and nurturing in positive cycles.[/color]

HOW THESE PLAY OUT MUST HAVE A GREAT DEAL TO DO WITH WHICH EVOLUTIONARY STAGE THE SOUL IS IN

In terms of ego, I have long been confused about it.  As a student of the Course in Miracles, ego is defined by any outward egoic inflation or deflation of the self, which I have expressed, mostly deflation.
During my reading with Steve we talked about me needing to develop an ego, that my chart (my soul) reflects the lack of self-esteem via severe soul trauma, thus the Leo Sun-Mercury to help me move out of the deprivation (Virgo) suffering mentality.  

In terms of the 4th house Pluto characteristics, I can relate to some of them, but not all of them.  I personally don't feel the cruel, mean, vindictive aspect.  Before I moved towards a healing path, I definitely had many of these characteristics, still have some, but as I have received an immense amount of nurturing from getting massage, going to massage school (my class was filled with women who were my mother's age), 12-step recovery-having a loving sponsor, gifted holistic psychotherapist-healer, who helped me access the ability to address my emotional needs, emotional body I would not be were I am today.  I was carrying so much in my soul, let alone from this life (lots of childhood trauma) I would not have recovered without a healthy representation of the Cancer archetype.

I realize my soul needed to have all the experiences it has thus far, including 4th house abandonment, lack of emotional safety, nurturing (I do have a Pluto Moon trine which really helps and thus I felt loved in my life, no matter that my parents were totally checked out for much of it) to address my soul's desire and the lack my soul has carried forth for many many lifetimes.  Overall, I am grateful as so much has been revealed in this life, and immense awareness has been gained with more to come I'm sure.

I can definitely say without a place to emotionally expand into a pool of containment, where any emotion I need to feel, energetically or otherwise, can be recognized and integrated is a recipe for total suffering (Virgo).  For me its back into trauma, rather than integrate and heal through Pisces love.  Without this the negative aspect of Virgo appears, and the rage and self-hatred I soul carried around being physically and psychically tortured returns.  

With Pluto Virgo in the 4th and the Moon Capricorn in the 8th, ego/soul Cancer/Capricorn themes run strong for me.  

Collectively speaking, with the last eclipse we had, and the grand cross now with Uranus, Sun-Venus (and soon Mars), Pluto and Saturn, we are collectively experiencing a release in the karmic collective trauma our emotional bodies have held.  I saw the movie 'Tree of Life' last night, a bit intense, but reflective of the suppression of emotions via the conditioning of patriarchal life here on earth, and our abuse of the earth and each other by stuffing feelings.  The other movie I recently saw with 'Buck', the horse whisperer.  The movie brings to light the abuse that horses have endured, because of man's need to dominant rather than relate, and Buck's own childhood trauma/abuse (it would be interesting to see his chart).  Both these movies brought up my feelings/reflections on the masculine archetype, the same one my father learned and expressed, and the effects the abusive nature the shadow masculine has had on us all.  

I hope all I have said follows some congruent path.  I too haven't been on the board much in the last couple of months and I'm glad to be back.  

I would like to post a chart with Cancer themes if we all want to look at it together.

Blessings and love to all of you,
Wendy

Quote from: Linda on Jul 05, 2011, 05:07 AM

C A N C E R

The 4th house is naturally square to both the 1st house - Aries - and the 7th house - Libra. Libra represents extremes, and in Aries we have the extreme of the Ego identifying itself as a separate being, with no connection to any other being.  This can cause the ego, through Mars, to dominate and to impose its will on others. WOW, VERY REVEALING--I HAVE A CHART TO POST THAT EXPRESSES THIS SO CLEARLY

The sign on the 4th house, the planetary ruler of the 4th house, the location of Cancer and the aspects it makes, the location of the Moon and the aspects it makes point out the structure of the personality and self image, and the nature of the emotional dynamics.

The Moon connects to emotional reality.  Feelings are a Venus function-REALLY? I DIDN'T KNOW THAT, I THOUGHT IT WAS THE MOON.  They are the immediate reaction to existing stimulus.  Emotions are a reaction to our feelings.  How often do we react in a less than ideal way to something that triggers us, even though our feelings and our beliefs can understand and even agree with what has happened.  Yet our emotions are our reaction to those feelings.

Cancer represents our need for security, particularly the security of home and family.  Yet its ultimate teaching is that the only true security is within us, in our relationship to God or the Cosmos, not to anything external.  Everything in our society teaches us that security is outside of my self, in things and in others. Yet ultimately everything outside of myself can and probably will be eventually removed from my life.  Over identification with anything external tends to lead to a life crisis in which it is suddenly removed from my life. The point of this is to remind me that the only real security is internal. THIS IS THE AWARENESS THAT IS PRESENT FOR ME WHENEVER I FEEL ATTACHED TO SOMETHING--NOW AFTER LOSING MY HOME, LITERALLY, I FEEL THAT EVER INVESTING IN HOME AGAIN--MAKING IT BEAUTIFUL (that's my 4th house Venus talking) OR PUTTING THE TIME AND EFFORT INTO MOVING MY THINGS OUT OF STORAGE INTO A HOME IS AN ILLUSION SOMEHOW--MUST BE THE BIG KARMIC LESSON WE ARE ALL BEING SHOWN NOW BECAUSE OUR WORLD CULTURE IS SO FIXED ON EXTERNALS.

You can determine a person's ability to adapt to change by looking at the sign on the 4th house, and the house and sign that the Moon is in.  If you see mostly fixed signs (Taurus, Leo, Scorpio, Aquarius), the person may have a problem adapting to change. VERY INTERESTING AND HELPFUL

As a cardinal sign, it indicates that a new cycle is beginning (as do Aries, Libra, and Capricorn).  The lesson here has been learning that security is internal and not found in parents, job, lover, home, etc.  They have been learning how to create their own emotional security from within.  Since this is a new cycle, most of them have not yet finished learning this lesson.  So most are born into difficult family situations.  One or both parents do not give the child what any child needs.  Thus their emotional needs are unfulfilled.  This forces the child back in on its own self, and they realize early on that they are going to have to learn to fulfill their own needs or those needs are not going to be fulfilled.  Because of the nature of the Moon and the 4th house, these lessons are all within the emotional structure of the children. IS THIS TRUE OF CANCER IN GENERAL OR JUST 4TH HOUSE PLUTO???

This is a very difficult environment for a child.  Most of these people have had a series of past lives in similar conditions.  Often they have prior life unresolved karma with one or both of the parents.  They are born with subconscious memories of these prior encounters. YES

This can also manifest in some cases as a parent who totally dominates the child's life and does not allow the child to grow up.  The parent is relating only to his or her own emotional needs, not to the child's.  Or the parent can be cruel or abusive.  The effect is the same - the child is thrown back upon itself as the only way to get its needs met. YES THIS IS SO TRUE

Some have a deep fear of emotional vulnerability.  All have sensitive and touchy emotions. Some resort to stuffing their emotions and living in denial of them to avoid the pain of continual removal of emotional dependencies.  Those who have repressed tend to draw people to them whom they can emotionally dominate, typically people in need of some form of emotional healing.  They attempt to make themselves indispensable in the person's life, both as a way to create emotional security for themselves, and as a way to feel "˜better than' someone else. They can take out the repressed anger and rage they feel towards the parent(s) on the partners or other people in their lives. Through being dominant they maintain their relationship and feel secure. Yet still their deepest needs for nurturing are unfulfilled because the partner is too wounded to fulfill those needs. I HAD THIS EXPERIENCE WITH A MAN I DATED--7TH HOUSE SN CANCER SUN JUPITER URANUS MERCURY AND NN CAPRICORN CONJUNCT MARS.  HE WAS VERY VERY CONTROLLING, THUS OUR RELATING DIDN'T LAST LONG.

All 4th house Pluto people experience a wide range of emotions in an intense way - everything is deeply felt.  The moods are often triggered from an external experience. These swings can be as confusing to the person as they are to those who experience them. These intense states are, in fact, necessary, because they lead to self-knowledge and ultimately inner security.  If they attempt to understand WHY these things are happening, it can lead to deep understanding of emotional dynamics. I CAN REALLY RELATE TO THIS

They have two distinct emotional cycles.  In one they are withdrawn and want to be left alone.  In the other they become animated and outwardly directed.  The two cycles are inconsistent and can change at any moment. They need people around them who understand that they fluctuate between these two cycles, and that both are necessary. AND THIS!

Thanks Linda--I just learned so much!

Quote from: Wendy on Jul 08, 2011, 05:50 AMI realized yesterday this Cancer thread was probably going and thought to add some thoughts and possibly a few charts with strong Cancer themes.  After reading through the thread though, I wanted to contribute my perspective as a natal Pluto 4th house person.

Hi Wendy,

Wonderful to read your contribution with you being a 4th house Pluto.

QuoteI have had astrologers tell me to clean up my 'messing 4th house', and another try to get me to comprehend the level of my soul's trauma by yelling at me--astrologer following EA model.

I experience this too Wendy -- people yelling at me because basically they cannot bear to witness my 'pathetic' emotions and neediness to connect to others.  I'll be frank.  Having my PPP in Aquarius in my 4th house I constantly get this message from others:  "I want plenty of space.  Do not come too close!  No, I don't want to be your friend."  So I am forced to isolate myself from people - don't get too close - and if I do get close, well, be quick about it and quickly detach.  I am forced to deal with my inner world, and quit looking outward to others for approval, attention or acknowledgement.  I must develop and strengthen my inner world.  You know, it's a slow process.  One step forward and two steps back.

QuoteAs a cardinal sign, it indicates that a new cycle is beginning (as do Aries, Libra, and Capricorn).  The lesson here has been learning that security is internal and not found in parents, job, lover, home, etc.  They have been learning how to create their own emotional security from within.  Since this is a new cycle, most of them have not yet finished learning this lesson.  So most are born into difficult family situations.  One or both parents do not give the child what any child needs.  Thus their emotional needs are unfulfilled.  This forces the child back in on its own self, and they realize early on that they are going to have to learn to fulfill their own needs or those needs are not going to be fulfilled.  Because of the nature of the Moon and the 4th house, these lessons are all within the emotional structure of the children. IS THIS TRUE OF CANCER IN GENERAL OR JUST 4TH HOUSE PLUTO???

I think it is very intense - almost like a karmic necessity - if one has Pluto in the 4th.  But I've found this also to be true if one has a strong Cancer archetype in the chart regardless of position.  Also, since everyone is evolving out of the patriarchy, these lessons are for the collective to learn.  I've made good progress, but I still am aware of that deep longing to connect emotionally with others.  The culture in my country is so emotionless and dry.....the perfect place to learn emotional self-reliance!  The most helpful tip for me is that emotional self-security is "natural" -- we just need to get in touch with those natural laws on an inner level once again.  

It would be great to examine a chart with you Wendy and Ellen and anyone else who'd like to get involved.  Yes, please send a chart with an emphasized Cancer archetype.

In relation to the emotional dynamics all of you are touching upon in the Cancer archetype. Jeffrey talked also about displacement of emotions as part of this archetype. So what comes to mind to me is that when we have displaced or disowned parts of our self they show up in our outer world, thru other people. Since so much of our ego security self is formed in the current life thru mirroring, first with Mother, then others, it is important to look at what shows up in ones life as a mirror. For example if we have disowned an inner child self that feels unloved and forlorn....others will step into our orb and energy field and play out that disowned part back to us... and treat us as if we are unlovable. The personal work then becomes to re-own that vulnerable child self , and yes thru Cancer - nurture and thru the polarity point Cap, re-parent that part of the self.

Reading what both Linda and Wendy have said about getting yelled at etc... is to try to NOT internalize the sting of that as much as to ask oneself what parts of myself do I yell at... or what parts of myself still feel they need to be yelled at...that is ultimate compassion and nurturing of oneself and of course as you both mentioned...emotional self reliance. Because certainly it isn't the intention of the universe for you to be rejected, but thru mirroring it is only pointing out these things.

Wendy you pointed out how you have experienced progress and healing thru finding appropriate and nurturing mirrors....to help point you back to your own emotional truth and health (Bravo!!) It does seem also to be part of this archetype that rather than the displaced emotional neediness that can manifest from unconscious emotions, that healthy containment and mirroring is needed to start to unravel and heal the emotional complex. So finding those 'sources of love', that don;t simply replay the unconscious karmic and current life parental dynamics but provide a new model, while pointing one to self-reliance and not dependency is essential. I would say the fact you could find a therapist with such healthy boundaries mirrors your own inner progress!!

Linda... you said ... <Another general insight I've had relates to the evolutionary states. In the Consensus evolutionary condition, relationships are co-dependent, and therefore this could very well mean that marriage partners could expect their emotional needs to be met by the other, and not by themselves. In the Individuated evolutionary condition there is a need for freedom and independence, so the emotions would be more detached and distant, and partners would be more likely to give each other space. In the Spiritual evolutionary condition, the emotions would flow freely as a natural expression, and spiritual service would be offered through nurturing and caring for others.>

I would only say that my observation of that has not been so cut and dry...being in the spiritual state of evolution does not necessarily mean that co-dependant dynamics or other emotional complexes such as alienation etc.. do not happen. They just happen with more conscious awareness (eventually)...with the underlying intention of bringing about a deeper relationship with the divine within, which then yes as you pointed out naturally flows to service and healing.  In the consensus yes.. they are played out but with NO awareness...and it takes a lot more work (or several hundred more lifetimes) to become aware :-)

Quote from: Linda on Jul 08, 2011, 07:41 AM
I experience this too Wendy -- people yelling at me because basically they cannot bear to witness my 'pathetic' emotions and neediness to connect to others.  I'll be frank.  Having my PPP in Aquarius in my 4th house I constantly get this message from others:  "I want plenty of space.  Do not come too close!  No, I don't want to be your friend."  

WOW, VERY AQUARIAN! THAT SOUNDS LIKE THE SHADOW OF AQUARIUS TOO? HEALTHIER FRIENDS MAYBE?

So I am forced to isolate myself from people - don't get too close - and if I do get close, well, be quick about it and quickly detach.  I am forced to deal with my inner world, and quit looking outward to others for approval, attention or acknowledgement.  I must develop and strengthen my inner world.  You know, it's a slow process.  One step forward and two steps back.

Honestly, I felt the need for this astrologer to yell at me had more to do with him than with me.  That energy doesn't work very well for me, especially after working with very conscious therapists and spending years and years allowing my emotions to come to the surface.  When I got sober and began getting bodywork to help with the chronic pain I had lived with much of my life, my homework was to sit with myself for 5 minutes a day and FEEL what my body was feeling and LISTEN to its voice.  It was excruciating.  I was crawling out of a black hole, not yet to the surface.

There are parts of me I have yelled at and rejected, to this day.  Thus taking full ownership of emotionally projecting a disowned aspect of me--creating a negative void for this person to fill in where I wasn't present, taking responsibility for myself. Though I am still releasing and forgiving, myself and others.  I haven't had that much hatred towards anyone, since I had truly released my hatred towards my mother, which took years.

I believe the reason I feel/felt so angry with this astrologer, is his focus only on my 4th house, encouraging me to let go of home, rather than see how imperative home is to my functioning and my evolution.  Yes, great maybe the ultimate lesson is to let go of everything, but I'm sure that comes with time, maybe more lifetimes to resolve this intense karmic signature.  He was projecting his 4th house need to let go (SN in the 4th), and I allowed it--that's what makes me 'hate him'.  

This whole process is so interesting for me, because I am working with Uranus, Venus, Saturn, Chiron and the nodes in addition to Pluto.  Once the Pluto 4th house issues are managed well and consistently, I become Uranus--detached, Venus--embodied, Saturn--my own authority and stable figure to others, and Chiron--the healer, who is highly intuitive with loads of compassion to help others see in inner workings of their mind and how it impacts their inner and outer world--Sag-Gemini-6th/12th house).  Major intense visions and healing ability comes through, when the safe container of 4th house is present.  It's truly quite amazing, to have all of that experience, and now to be living without the 'home' environment which supports all of this--my evolutionary impulse.  Right now, this forum, witness to my inner self, living in a home with plenty of the enough water element present, and the recent sessions I have had all are helping me create/rebuild (Saturn PPP) emotional containment and forgiveness for myself and relationships I have had since transiting Pluto moved in my 7th house.

QuoteAs a cardinal sign, it indicates that a new cycle is beginning (as do Aries, Libra, and Capricorn).  The lesson here has been learning that security is internal and not found in parents, job, lover, home, etc.  They have been learning how to create their own emotional security from within.  Since this is a new cycle, most of them have not yet finished learning this lesson.  So most are born into difficult family situations.  One or both parents do not give the child what any child needs.  Thus their emotional needs are unfulfilled.  This forces the child back in on its own self, and they realize early on that they are going to have to learn to fulfill their own needs or those needs are not going to be fulfilled.  Because of the nature of the Moon and the 4th house, these lessons are all within the emotional structure of the children. IS THIS TRUE OF CANCER IN GENERAL OR JUST 4TH HOUSE PLUTO???

I think it is very intense - almost like a karmic necessity - if one has Pluto in the 4th.  But I've found this also to be true if one has a strong Cancer archetype in the chart regardless of position.  [/quote]

THIS IS SO PROFOUND FOR ME TO LEARN THIS--THE MAN I DATED SEVERAL YEARS BACK WITH ALL THE CANCER, WHEN I WAS GETTING READY TO TRAVEL, GO AWAY ON A TRIP HE LITERALLY BEGAN TO HAVE A TEMPER TANTRUM, AND QUICKLY RAN OUTSIDE TO HAVE A TALK WITH HIMSELF.

WE MIRRORED A LOT OF PATTERNS FOR EACH OTHER--THOUGH MY ISSUES EXPRESSED DIFFERENTLY THAN HIS AND THE UNFORTUNATE PIECE IS HE WAS UNWILLING TO BE EMOTIONALLY NAKED, VULNERABLE.

Wow, I have just moved through so much stuff writing all of this out.  Perfect example of a healthy place to express emotions for clarity and transformation to occur.

Thank you EA people.

Quote from: Linda on Jul 08, 2011, 07:41 AM

Quote from: Wendy on Jul 08, 2011, 05:50 AMI realized yesterday this

QuoteI have had astrologers tell me to clean up my 'messing 4th house', and another try to get me to comprehend the level of my soul's trauma by yelling at me--astrologer following EA model.

I experience this too Wendy -- people yelling at me because basically they cannot bear to witness my 'pathetic' emotions and neediness to connect to others.  I'll be frank.  Having my PPP in Aquarius in my 4th house I constantly get this message from others:  "I want plenty of space.  Do not come too close!  No, I don't want to be your friend."  So I am forced to isolate myself from people - don't get too close - and if I do get close, well, be quick about it and quickly detach.  I am forced to deal with my inner world, and quit looking outward to others for approval, attention or acknowledgement.  I must develop and strengthen my inner world.  You know, it's a slow process.  One step forward and two steps back.

ust want to triple ditto this one! This is in the the past now, though; I now know (I didn't know it for most of my life) that it's their problem when they can't deal with emotions (mine, their own or anyone else's), not mine.  And I see that it is truly a great gift to allow oneself to have and be present with one's emotions and thus be better able to allow another to have/express/be present with theirs.  I also know that it is OK to have my emotions acknowledged.  That doesn't mean anyone has to DO them for me or take care of them for me or whatever (though that certainly took me some time to figure out, ie, for most of my lifeI didn't know that's what I was needing.  I now know that I DO, ABSOLUTELY, within the context of relationship, need it to be ok to have the emotions I am having and that's ALL I was ever needing.  Period.  (Cancer also imprints its environment so getting to the truth of this has been revelatory, ie, taking on other people's feelings/beliefs that I'm being manipulative and then believing that to be true about me.  But in fact what was happening was that I was simply having my emotions and simply needing space to have those.  People tend to think they have to caretake.  And Cancer picks up on this, feeling that it must be so about it - that it must be caretaken and that it is being manipulative...  It is an enormously tricky thing and has taken me years to sort out.)  Anyway, this has been a very good lesson for me. It is interesting to me, too, as I've reflected on this.  I do not wish to deny the very real potential for emotional manipulation, but in the work I did as a nursing assistant for many years and as I reflect on the relationships I've had with counselors and healers and others, it has really struck me that what others often define as "manipulativeness" is really just their own inability to allow another to have the space to have their emotions.  It is a tricky line.  I HAVE also experienced being manipulated.  But, often, even that, as I think about it, can be traced back to a structure/system that is just tremendously out of whack and so very basic needs cannot be met, which leads to tremendous distortion.  Ultimately it's what the Soul has chosen, but I don't think that means we ignore the realities of the system that created the environment.


Addition:  Patricia, I just read your post and I would be curious re: your feedback to what I've written here.....

Quote from: Wendy on Jul 08, 2011, 10:35 AM

Quote from: Linda on Jul 08, 2011, 07:41 AM
I experience this too Wendy -- people yelling at me because basically they cannot bear to witness my 'pathetic' emotions and neediness to connect to others.  I'll be frank.  Having my PPP in Aquarius in my 4th house I constantly get this message from others:  "I want plenty of space.  Do not come too close!  No, I don't want to be your friend."  WOW, VERY AQUARIAN!

So I am forced to isolate myself from people - don't get too close - and if I do get close, well, be quick about it and quickly detach.  I am forced to deal with my inner world, and quit looking outward to others for approval, attention or acknowledgement.  I must develop and strengthen my inner world.  You know, it's a slow process.  One step forward and two steps back.

Honestly, I felt the need for this astrologer to yell at me had more to do with him than with me.  That energy doesn't work very well for me, especially after working with very conscious therapists and spending years and years allowing my emotions to come to the surface.  When I got sober and began getting bodywork to help with the chronic pain I had lived with my homework was to sit with myself for 5 minutes a day and FEEL what my body was feeling and LISTEN to its voice.  It was excruciating.  I was crawling out of a black hole, not yet to the surface.

There are parts of me I have yelled at and rejected, to this day.  Thus taking full ownership of emotionally projecting a disowned aspect of me--creating a negative void for this person to fill in where I wasn't present, taking responsibility for myself. Though I am still releasing and forgiving, myself and others.  I haven't had that much hatred towards anyone, since I had truly released my hatred towards my mother, which took years.

I believe the reason I feel/felt so angry with this astrologer, is his focus only on my 4th house, encouraging me to let go of home, rather than see how imperative home is to my functioning and my evolution.  Yes, great maybe the ultimate lesson is to let go of everything, but I'm sure that comes with time, maybe more lifetimes to resolve this intense karmic signature.  He was projecting his 4th house need to let go (SN in the 4th), and I allowed it--that's what makes me 'hate him'. 

The irony of this to me, Wendy, is that the very thing Cancer/4th is needing is to get in touch with their own inner knowing - their own emotions and knowing that come from that - to know who they are at an egoic level.  I don't see how that's possible with someone directing you to an end s/he sees for you...(I have had numerous less than optimal therapeutic/healing/counseling experiences for this very reason...)...  I'm a big fan of Carl Rogers.  His Sun sign was Cancer if I remember.  He really seemed to get this.


This whole process is so interesting for me, because I am working with Uranus, Venus, Saturn, Chiron and the nodes in addition to Pluto.  Once the Pluto 4th house issues are managed well and consistently, I become Uranus--detached, Venus--embodied, Saturn--my own authority and stable figure to others, and Chiron--the healer, who is highly intuitive with loads of compassion to help others see in inner workings of their mind and how it impacts their inner and outer world--Sag-Gemini-6th/12th house).  Major intense visions and healing ability comes through, when the safe container of 4th house is present.  It's truly quite amazing, to have all of that experience, and now to be living without the 'home' environment which supports all of this--my evolutionary impulse.  Right now, this forum, witness to my inner self, living in a home with plenty of the enough water element present, and the recent sessions I have had all are helping me create/rebuild (Saturn PPP) emotional containment and forgiveness for myself and relationships I have had since transiting Pluto moved in my 7th house.

QuoteAs a cardinal sign, it indicates that a new cycle is beginning (as do Aries, Libra, and Capricorn).  The lesson here has been learning that security is internal and not found in parents, job, lover, home, etc.  They have been learning how to create their own emotional security from within.  Since this is a new cycle, most of them have not yet finished learning this lesson.  So most are born into difficult family situations.  One or both parents do not give the child what any child needs.  Thus their emotional needs are unfulfilled.  This forces the child back in on its own self, and they realize early on that they are going to have to learn to fulfill their own needs or those needs are not going to be fulfilled.  Because of the nature of the Moon and the 4th house, these lessons are all within the emotional structure of the children. IS THIS TRUE OF CANCER IN GENERAL OR JUST 4TH HOUSE PLUTO???

I think it is very intense - almost like a karmic necessity - if one has Pluto in the 4th.  But I've found this also to be true if one has a strong Cancer archetype in the chart regardless of position.  

THIS IS SO PROFOUND FOR ME TO LEARN THIS--THE MAN I DATED SEVERAL YEARS BACK WITH ALL THE CANCER, WHEN I WAS GETTING READY TO TRAVEL, GO AWAY ON A TRIP HE LITERALLY BEGAN TO HAVE A TEMPER TANTRUM, AND QUICKLY RAN OUTSIDE TO HAVE A TALK WITH HIMSELF.

WE MIRRORED A LOT OF PATTERNS FOR EACH OTHER--THOUGH MY ISSUES EXPRESSED DIFFERENTLY THAN HIS AND THE UNFORTUNATE PIECE IS HE WAS UNWILLING TO BE EMOTIONALLY NAKED, VULNERABLE.

Wow, I have just moved through so much stuff writing all of this out.  Perfect example of a healthy place to express emotions for clarity and transformation to occur.

Thank you EA people.
[/quote]

Quote from: PatriciaW on Jul 08, 2011, 10:00 AM
Wendy you pointed out how you have experienced progress and healing thru finding appropriate and nurturing mirrors....to help point you back to your own emotional truth and health (Bravo!!) It does seem also to be part of this archetype that rather than the displaced emotional neediness that can manifest from unconscious emotions, that healthy containment and mirroring is needed to start to unravel and heal the emotional complex. So finding those 'sources of love', that don;t simply replay the unconscious karmic and current life parental dynamics but provide a new model, while pointing one to self-reliance and not dependency is essential.

WITHOUT THIS I WOULD HAVE NEVER GOTTEN BETTER.  

I would say the fact you could find a therapist with such healthy boundaries mirrors your own inner progress!!

THANKS PATRICIA.

I would only say that my observation of that has not been so cut and dry...being in the spiritual state of evolution does not necessarily mean that co-dependant dynamics or other emotional complexes such as alienation etc.. do not happen. They just happen with more conscious awareness (eventually)...YES THIS IS MY EXPERIENCE AND I LIKE THE EVENTUALLY EMPHASISwith the underlying intention of bringing about a deeper relationship with the divine within, which then yes as you pointed out naturally flows to service and healing.  

Hi Ellen,

Love everything you said Ellen--SO TRUE!

Quote from: Ellen on Jul 08, 2011, 11:09 AM
Just want to triple ditto this one! This is in the the past now, though; I now know (I didn't know it for most of my life) that it's their problem when they can't deal with emotions (mine, their own or anyone else's), not mine.  

MOST OF THE WORLD IS NOT IN SELF-RESPONSIBILITY WITH THEIR EMOTIONS, THUS THEY ARE PROJECTED OUTWARD, WHEN REAL HEALTHY EMOTIONAL EXPRESSION COMES OUT PEOPLE JUST CAN'T HANDLE IT--ONE THING THAT THE SPIRITUAL NEW AGE WORLD SUGGESTS IS NOT FEELING, BUT IF YOUR KARMIC LESSON IS TO BECOME EMOTIONALLY SELF-RELIANT THAN EMOTIONAL OVERFLOW IS NECESSARY WHILE FORMING THE CONTAINER.

And I see that it is truly a great gift to allow oneself to have and be present with one's emotions and thus be better able to allow another to have/express/be present with theirs.  BEAUTIFUL

But in fact what was happening was that I was simply having my emotions and simply needing space to have those.  People tend to think they have to caretake YES BECAUSE THEY ARE UNCOMFORTABLE WITH THEIR OWN EMOTIONS.  And Cancer picks up on this, feeling that it must be so about it - that it must be caretaken and that it is being manipulative...  It is an enormously tricky thing and has taken me years to sort out.)  Anyway, this has been a very good lesson for me. It is interesting to me, too, as I've reflected on this.  

There is so much richness in this thread, comments continue to emerge :D!

Quote from: Ellen on Jul 08, 2011, 11:20 AM
The irony of this to me, Wendy, is that the very thing Cancer/4th is needing is to get in touch with their own inner knowing - their own emotions and knowing that come from that - to know who they are at an egoic level.  I don't see how that's possible with someone directing you to an end s/he sees for you...(I have had numerous less than optimal therapeutic/healing/counseling experiences for this very reason...)...  I'm a big fan of Carl Rogers.  His Sun sign was Cancer if I remember.  He really seemed to get this.[/b]

All of the folks who have helped me the most (professionals and friends) have strong water to their makeup.  Mainly Scorpio-Cancer-Capricorn folks with loads of integrity and strong Aquarius Sag too to ensure radical truth in support of evolution.

Quote from: Linda on Jul 05, 2011, 08:11 PM
Aquarius is the sign in my 4th house which contains Chiron, Black Moon Lilith and Juno, and to me this means that I have been liberating myself from outdated family structures, while at the same time being able to be of service through healing family issues (Chiron), applying myself to the ongoing study of astrology (Aquarius), being a natural woman (BML), and learning how to be emotionally self-reliant within a self-sufficient relationship (Juno).

I feel this is true for me as well Linda.  With Uranus Pluto Venus in the 4th, my role in the family was to break free from unconscious ancestral emotional baggage, including my own, and awaken the family to deeper truths and healing (which has happened) about family patterns and structure.

I too have Juno in Aquarius along with Pallas Athene, thus I am truly committed to the revolution of my soul and its intent, no matter what. 

Peace,
Wendy

Ellen said.... <<This is in the the past now, though; I now know (I didn't know it for most of my life) that it's their problem when they can't deal with emotions (mine, their own or anyone else's), not mine.  And I see that it is truly a great gift to allow oneself to have and be present with one's emotions and thus be better able to allow another to have/express/be present with theirs.  I also know that it is OK to have my emotions acknowledged.  That doesn't mean anyone has to DO them for me or take care of them for me or whatever (though that certainly took me some time to figure out, ie, for most of my lifeI didn't know that's what I was needing.  I now know that I DO, ABSOLUTELY, within the context of relationship, need it to be ok to have the emotions I am having and that's ALL I was ever needing.  Period.  (Cancer also imprints its environment so getting to the truth of this has been revelatory, ie, taking on other people's feelings/beliefs that I'm being manipulative and then believing that to be true about me.  But in fact what was happening was that I was simply having my emotions and simply needing space to have those.  People tend to think they have to caretake.  And Cancer picks up on this, feeling that it must be so about it - that it must be caretaken and that it is being manipulative...  It is an enormously tricky thing and has taken me years to sort out.) >>>>

Ellen I think what you said above is what I was also intimating... The polarity point .. CAP has within that archetype...reality- differing realities and limitations as well as boundary(ies). So to me it's a balance between, owning what belongs to oneself, often that insight comes from 'running it thru ones internal system' what is being mirrored, as well as NOT owning what doesn't belong to oneself...by looking at what is being mirrored :-)

Anyway, this has been a very good lesson for me. It is interesting to me, too, as I've reflected on this.  I do not wish to deny the very real potential for emotional manipulation, but in the work I did as a nursing assistant for many years and as I reflect on the relationships I've had with counselors and healers and others, it has really struck me that what others often define as "manipulativeness" is really just their own inability to allow another to have the space to have their emotions.  It is a tricky line.  I HAVE also experienced being manipulated.  But, often, even that, as I think about it, can be traced back to a structure/system that is just tremendously out of whack and so very basic needs cannot be met, which leads to tremendous distortion.  Ultimately it's what the Soul has chosen, but I don't think that means we ignore the realities of the system that created the environment.


Addition:  Patricia, I just read your post and I would be curious re: your feedback to what I've written here.....

I think what you wrote about manipulation is a very valid truth for your emotional reality and seems like you did a lot of work to come to your realizations!!. I would only say IN GENERAL that because the Cancerian emotional dynamics (moon dynamic) can relate back to very infant-like emotions, when we are in the grip of those..others can feel we are being manipulative. Simply cause when you are a baby and cry to get attention for a need to be met..it is expected (well at least by healthy parents)...but as an adult it can been seen as being emotionally manipulative. So I wouldn't discount that emotional manipulation is a function of displaced emotions within this archetype...ie.. in ALL of us since we all have a moon...a 4th house and Cancer archetype somewhere in our charts :-)  Did I adress what you wanted me to comment on?

Okay here goes with a few Cancer influenced charts.  The first one is my sister's (for this thread I will call her Kelly). She was first born, and my parents were not married when my mother got pregnant.  Her parents wanted her to have an abortion and go to college, but she refused.  Married my father and gained the love she had longed for via my father's expressive family.

(http://i683.photobucket.com/albums/vv196/Astroearth/kelly.gif)

Main Cancer themes in sister's chart:  Rising Cancer, Pluto conjunct the Moon (2nd house), 4th house Neptune conjunct Venus in Scorpio.

Kelly and I have had many lives together.  We were raised in a moderately religious home, but nothing too severe. The wildness of the 70's is what impacted us the most.  I'm not sure what evolutionary state she is, though many times I feel she is consensus, yet when her true self peeks out, once in a while (via therapy), she is very intuitive and conscious, but she always go back into survival mode and following the collective paradigm, rather than listen to her own inner self.  Her dream state is immense and though she is a Sun Sag, she expresses more of Cancer Scorpio themes than anything.

She wanted to be a social worker, but was ridiculed by grandmother to be something more.  As she moved into her early adolescent years, her innate sexual yet shy nature appeared, but she was shamed for being herself.  She loved earth tones and was told the were plain and boring, that blue was more of her color.  

Without going into all of the details, she became pregnant at 13 and my parents forced her to have an abortion.  She then became pregnant 3 more times before she was 19.  All of pregnancies were aborted.  The family theme was to suppress life, not honor the creative juice that my sisters and I wanted so much to express.  My mother regretted having children, and told us so on a regular basis.  Kelly being the oldest had the most cognitive exposure to our mother's depressive mis-directed emotional projections, which only stopped when she died from diabetic drug addicted heart attack (spleen Cancer themes).  Our mother could also be fun, but she was way out of balance.

Both my parents had sexual affairs with Kelly's most intimate relationships.  My father with Kelly's girlfriend and my mother, with Kelly's boyfriend.  Total betrayal, on top of the abandonment issues and everything else.  

Kelly has been in therapy for the last nine years, has intense food addiction--she weighs close to two hundred pounds, also was heavily into drugs when younger, before she had her son.  Kelly has a very difficult time with boundaries. I feel this is because her entire energy field is torn open and there is no containment.  The times she has come close to coming into her power, accessing her deeply repressed emotions, and awakening her sexual energy, she can only do so for very short periods of time before shutting back down.  

I believe she is in an intense state of PTSD most of the time, and has been suicidal for many years, on anti-depressants.  She has never attempted suicide, but has very low self-esteem and avoids her PPP--Pisces 8th house, because the Cancer 4th house themes are not addressed--Neptune Venus Scorpio.

All of that said, Kelly is also very firey.  A Sag sun in the 4th, with NN in Leo and Mars in Leo in the 1st, in a t-square with SN Aquarius in the 7th, and 4th house planets.  

I have tried to understand her karmic nature, but have been too close possibly and also still cognitively comprehending the EA paradigm and Cancerian themes of emotional self-sufficiency myself to see this clearly.

It has been painful to watch, and in the most recent year I have detached a great deal because she has been so fixed on not allowing anyone in.  She doesn't trust anyone, other than me and her therapist, meaning she doesn't get real with anyone other than us.  I set a boundary with her last year that I didn't want that kind of burden, that is was unhealthy for both of us.  She responded well and reached out, but was set back when our other sister went into crisis and her son was arrested for possession of marijuana.

Kelly gets totally fixed in a traumatic state and dives deep into work, gives all her power to an employer that she hates, and focuses on making money (2nd house Pluto), rather than trusting into the depth of her feelings and in Spirit (Pisces 8th house-Venus 4th).

Delusion, deception, confusion in the 4th, Neptune Venus squares Saturn in Aquarius, SN dispositor Uranus in 2nd conjunct retro Pluto, retro Ceres, and Moon.  Mars seemed to be the key, accessing her anger in a healthy way leading her to self-love, and to her PPP.  

Also, I lived with her for a short period of time, three years ago.  She could not deal with the regular mirror I presented for her, and felt I was always emotionally challenging her to take responsibility for what arose in her.  She said she would rather die than deal with the feelings and reflections that were coming up.

Her resistance is huge.  I guess it mirrors how big her wounds are (Jupiter Chiron) and hides her ability to transform them into medicine.  I guess extremes are part of this too--7th house SN, dispositor in opposition to Jupiter Chiron, swinging from one extreme to another.

Thoughts?

Thanks,
Wendy

Quote from: PatriciaW on Jul 08, 2011, 02:11 PM

Ellen said.... <<This is in the the past now, though; I now know (I didn't know it for most of my life) that it's their problem when they can't deal with emotions (mine, their own or anyone else's), not mine.  And I see that it is truly a great gift to allow oneself to have and be present with one's emotions and thus be better able to allow another to have/express/be present with theirs.  I also know that it is OK to have my emotions acknowledged.  That doesn't mean anyone has to DO them for me or take care of them for me or whatever (though that certainly took me some time to figure out, ie, for most of my lifeI didn't know that's what I was needing.  I now know that I DO, ABSOLUTELY, within the context of relationship, need it to be ok to have the emotions I am having and that's ALL I was ever needing.  Period.  (Cancer also imprints its environment so getting to the truth of this has been revelatory, ie, taking on other people's feelings/beliefs that I'm being manipulative and then believing that to be true about me.  But in fact what was happening was that I was simply having my emotions and simply needing space to have those.  People tend to think they have to caretake.  And Cancer picks up on this, feeling that it must be so about it - that it must be caretaken and that it is being manipulative...  It is an enormously tricky thing and has taken me years to sort out.) >>>>

Ellen I think what you said above is what I was also intimating... The polarity point .. CAP has within that archetype...reality- differing realities and limitations as well as boundary(ies). So to me it's a balance between, owning what belongs to oneself, often that insight comes from 'running it thru ones internal system' what is being mirrored, as well as NOT owning what doesn't belong to oneself...by looking at what is being mirrored :-)

Anyway, this has been a very good lesson for me. It is interesting to me, too, as I've reflected on this.  I do not wish to deny the very real potential for emotional manipulation, but in the work I did as a nursing assistant for many years and as I reflect on the relationships I've had with counselors and healers and others, it has really struck me that what others often define as "manipulativeness" is really just their own inability to allow another to have the space to have their emotions.  It is a tricky line.  I HAVE also experienced being manipulated.  But, often, even that, as I think about it, can be traced back to a structure/system that is just tremendously out of whack and so very basic needs cannot be met, which leads to tremendous distortion.  Ultimately it's what the Soul has chosen, but I don't think that means we ignore the realities of the system that created the environment.


Addition:  Patricia, I just read your post and I would be curious re: your feedback to what I've written here.....

I think what you wrote about manipulation is a very valid truth for your emotional reality and seems like you did a lot of work to come to your realizations!!. I would only say IN GENERAL that because the Cancerian emotional dynamics (moon dynamic) can relate back to very infant-like emotions, when we are in the grip of those..others can feel we are being manipulative. Simply cause when you are a baby and cry to get attention for a need to be met..it is expected (well at least by healthy parents)...but as an adult it can been seen as being emotionally manipulative. So I wouldn't discount that emotional manipulation is a function of displaced emotions within this archetype...ie.. in ALL of us since we all have a moon...a 4th house and Cancer archetype somewhere in our charts :-)  Did I adress what you wanted me to comment on?

Hi Patricia,

Thanks so much for taking the time to respond.  Yes, I understand what you are saying and it answers much of what I was looking for but I have always, always, since working as a nursing assistant and always hearing about how this patient or that is "manipulative" simply NEVER gotten it (except in extreme, intractable incidences, which were few, and even then I felt it could always be traced back to a faulty system or profoundly neglected early needs, etc.).  I guess I have a hard time with the use of the word "manipulative" to describe what is a normal effort at development, normal in that, if it didn't have the chance to develop in childhood, it will continue to seek opportunity for development until it gets the chance for it (as it should, imho!).  Because our world IS screwed up, this often means that biological age and emotional/spiritual/psychological/etc age are not in sync.  I understand COMPLETELY if a person comes up against an as yet unmet developmental need in another and says, "Nope, can't go there."  That to me is healthy.  EVERYONE should know what they can/can't do, what they are willing/not willing to do in relation to/with others.  But I don't see how that means the person is "manipulative".  Perhaps I'm getting tripped up on the word.  To me, manipulative is something intractable and I think perhaps a little sinister (like the effort is to undo the other in some way).  But simply seeking to get one's needs met, which is normal and natural, regardless of the age, I guess I don't see a problem with that.  Then you just have a conversation, hopefully.  When I was a nursing assistant my job was to try to meet people's needs as best I could.  If they asked for something and I couldn't provide it, I would say I couldn't and why.  It was rare when I felt the need was unreasonable.  And those WERE difficult experiences.  Maybe the issue here revolves around the honoring of "no".  Have your needs and ask for them, whatever they may be.  But also honor another's "no".  Perhaps when that is not so, that is manipulative?  I just get hung up on the word.  I think often the system doesn't work and we blame the other (in this case "patient") for reacting to that, as they should, really.  I felt it was used way too often and way quickly.  But perhaps I'm wrong about that............Does this make sense?  Can you understand where I'm having trouble with this whole aspect of the Cancer archetype?  Is "to be seen as" something the same as BEING that? (as an example).  I guess the one final thing I wanted to say is that to me, often, the word "manipulative" is used in place of recognizing that one cannot meet the need of another and not being able to accept that.  Again, I DO think manipulation does occur (drug addiction, ie, - Pisces trine).  This is actually an interesting point.  Perhaps MANIPULATION can be defined more as an attempt to get FALSE needs met........?  To violate the other (violate the trust - Scorpio trine) in one's efforts.....  Sorry if this is rambling.  Just SOOOO wrestle with this whole concept!

Warmest regards,
Ellen

Hi Ellen,

I was thinking about the manipulation of Cancer and how is plays out, unconsciously.  I have Lucifer in Cancer, plus all the 4th house stuff mentioned earlier.  Until I became aware of my projected emotions and began to re-parent via therapy and self-care, I was unconsciously manipulating, generally speaking.  

My energy field was screaming for love.  I literally can remember craving love and acceptance so deeply as a teenager (my parents were really checked out).  Soon after that I met my first boyfriend.  I was completely starving emotionally, and thus I would have licked the dirt off the sidewalk if he asked me to.  Two years later, when he slept with another girl, I was devastated, because I invested everything in him. I was losing any sense of self I previously had, and as time went on the pit of emotional projection, seeking another to take care of me deepened, and my victimhood increased.  Prior to hitting an intense bottom, I was literally living through my boyfriend.  When we broke up, I had physical withdrawal symptoms because my core was too open, depending outwardly on another.  This is manipulation.  Yes I loads of traumatic experiences, yes my parents didn't meet my needs...but without their service to my soul, I would not have the awareness's I have today.  It took me years of hating them, emoting over and over to release the pattern and even be able to take in that my soul chose this (Louise Hay really pissed me off in the beginning).

I think manipulation can be looked at in many ways: consensus, individuated, spiritual, in terms of the Cancer archetype.  All levels express it and probably express in more extreme levels when less consciousness is present.  

Last summer, I ran into another man I dated (Mars in Cancer opp Saturn Cap).  We hadn't seen each other in twenty years and I could feel immediately that he was projected emotionally onto me--projecting all his unmet needs onto the ideal of being in relationship with me.  I suggested he slow down.  It was clear he hadn't done the deeper work.  We talked several weeks later and he told me, 'he didn't want to scare me, but he felt the same way now about me, as he did in the past'--he wanted to get married, have a baby, and I wanted to go to therapy and deal with my own inner baby!

Those scenarios have manipulation at their core, unconscious manipulation.  Consciously manipulating is of course the other side of the coin.  I see it happen all the time, in myself and others.  Whenever I feel/project that I cannot take care of myself, manage my life, I am projecting.  

Does this help Ellen?

Quote from: Wendy on Jul 08, 2011, 07:43 PM
Hi Ellen,

I was thinking about the manipulation of Cancer and how is plays out, unconsciously.  I have Lucifer in Cancer, plus all the 4th house stuff mentioned earlier.  Until I became aware of my projected emotions and began to re-parent via therapy and self-care, I was unconsciously manipulating, generally speaking.  

My energy field was screaming for love.  I literally can remember craving love and acceptance so deeply as a teenager (my parents were really checked out).  Soon after that I met my first boyfriend.  I was completely starving emotionally, and thus I would have licked the dirt off the sidewalk if he asked me to.  Two years later, when he slept with another girl, I was devastated, because I invested everything in him. I was losing any sense of self I previously had, and as time went on the pit of emotional projection, seeking another to take care of me deepened, and my victimhood increased.  Prior to hitting an intense bottom, I was literally living through my boyfriend.  When we broke up, I had physical withdrawal symptoms because my core was too open, depending outwardly on another.  This is manipulation.  Yes I loads of traumatic experiences, yes my parents didn't meet my needs...but without their service to my soul, I would not have the awareness's I have today.  It took me years of hating them, emoting over and over to release the pattern and even be able to take in that my soul chose this (Louise Hay really pissed me off in the beginning).

I think manipulation can be looked at in many ways: consensus, individuated, spiritual, in terms of the Cancer archetype.  All levels express it and probably express in more extreme levels when less consciousness is present.  

Last summer, I ran into another man I dated (Mars in Cancer opp Saturn Cap).  We hadn't seen each other in twenty years and I could feel immediately that he was projected emotionally onto me--projecting all his unmet needs onto the ideal of being in relationship with me.  I suggested he slow down.  It was clear he hadn't done the deeper work.  We talked several weeks later and he told me, 'he didn't want to scare me, but he felt the same way now about me, as he did in the past'--he wanted to get married, have a baby, and I wanted to go to therapy and deal with my own inner baby!

Those scenarios have manipulation at their core, unconscious manipulation.  Consciously manipulating is of course the other side of the coin.  I see it happen all the time, in myself and others.  Whenever I feel/project that I cannot take care of myself, manage my life, I am projecting.  

Does this help Ellen?

Hi Wendy,

Thank you so much for your thoughts on this very difficult issue/question for me.  I appreciate your experience and what you have learned from it.  I DO understand what you and others are saying.  But to me "manipulation" is such a negative term - it fails to communicate (to me) any sense of understanding as to where/why the behaviors have come from and that, really, on a very basic level, they are understandable and make sense.  I guess to me it is, on the one hand, IMPORTANT to understand our patterns and to learn and grow beyond them - to learn to meet our own needs in healthy, mature ways - but to label the unmatured ways as "manipulative" - I just have a hard time hearing any kind of compassion or understanding coming through with that word.  I guess that's my beef with it.  It doesn't really help me to think of people's behavior (mine or others) in those terms.  To me it throws up a wall I guess in the form of a label.  And I resist that.  I'm not saying that I don't have behaviors that others might call "manipulative".  With all that 4th house energy - no doubt!  But it's not helpful for me to think about it in that way and it doesn't help my own healing/growth process to be in relationship with people who judge me in that way.  It ALSO doesn't help me to be in relationship with people who don't maintain good boundaries as there's no way to learn in that kind of situation.  So people with good boundaries, who care about me, and who don't judge me.  That's the formula that has helped me.  To me, ultimately, it's about learning to love and nurture oneself and to learn to receive love and nurturing.  I just find the word "manipulation" unhelpful in that process of discovery - whether it's in how people "frame" me, or how I "frame" others.......... I guess I'm not saying manipulation doesn't exist/isn't real.  I'm just saying it's not helpful for me to look at it in that way...  I don't feel it's about avoidance, either.  I feel it's about choosing a different lens......... If you think about it the other way around, ie, if someone "manipulated" me and that's how I framed it.... I'm not sure how I see how I LEARN anything from that.  In other words, it's all about the speck of wood in their eye and nothing about what I was clueless of/oblivious of in myself that led me to be "manipulated".  Don't know if that clarifies.  It is just a really difficult/sticky issue for me.  I appreciate your journey and the wisdom and healing that has come from that.

Warmest wishes,
Ellen

Just a few thoughts on the chart Wendy posted.....As I look at the Pluto conj moon in the 2cnd in relation to SN in AQ in the 7th, what I see reiterates some of what you have said already. Conforming to, or being forced to conform to others expectations has been a way of life, causing personal splitting and fragmentation. Many past life scenarios pop into mind, but the strongest that comes into focus for me involves the death of children (in utero or otherwise) in sexual servitude or shameful scenarios. Such as"¦ Being a "˜breeder' slave..used to become impregnated repeatedly with children then suffering them being  taken away, getting pregnant as a prostitute or sexual slave and having to repeatedly abort or actually kill new borns and/or raise them to become sexual servants themselves  (leading to immense guilt -Virgo),  Also being impregnated by a religious figure ( Pisces/Virgo- Catholic church) and outed, killed and/or cast out(AQ) because of that"¦the imprint there , being the one who carries all the shame, betrayal by someone trusted, disillusionment etc.

Putting that into context of what you told us about her already"¦.isn't it interesting that in the womb her mother was almost forced to abort her, which she did not"¦but later, same Mother forced her to abort 3x's?  Libra on the cusp of 4th house with BML there, Venus ruler of that house conj Nept and Lillith in Scorpio"¦ Mother was put under pressure to "˜conform to others expectations' but rebelled ( Lillith) but perhaps her rebellion was only a way to use the baby to get her own unresolved child needs met..by marrying your Father (BML in Libra conj 4th house cusp).  Pluto conj moon also reiterates that. The point being that all these pre-natal circumstances would be a replay symbolically of your sister's personal karmic story. 

Pluto in the 2cnd retro is certainly going to make her quite isolated and running back to whatever little security she feels , coupled with the obvious trauma of the AQ SN. How sad that when she did reach for her authentic self - wanting to be a social worker ( Sag Sun- which is ruler of NN) she was shamed (6th house) , it seems she has- life after life-become so estranged from her authentic self that she will need a lot of help in this life to get back there. But look at NN conj the asc"¦ the promise there is that if she can get back to her instinctual self"¦tune into what her natural gifts are she can overcome all that inherited guilt which blocks her knowing her authentic self.

A suggestion comes to mind that you might be able to (when the time is right for both of you) create a burial ritual for the present life aborted ones she had when she was younger. Doing that can have a few purposes"¦ 1) to honor those spirits and make sure they are at rest, 2) Many times I work with women who have had abortions even in adulthood and with a clear conscious, but when we go deeper with that, quite frequently there are still unresolved guilt or other emotional dynamics, doing such a ritual would also be to let your sister connect with what is unresolved there from this life and others"¦
And give her the opportunity to "˜atone' for any guilt that may be there by honoring the unborn spirits and laying them to rest. 3) to do this gently and with great respect is to also honor the part of her that went thru that as a young girl.

Oh yeah.. I just noticed...CERES sandwiched inbewteen Pluto and Moon...yikes need I say more?

Ellen said <<<<Perhaps MANIPULATION can be defined more as an attempt to get FALSE needs met........?  To violate the other (violate the trust - Scorpio trine) >>>>>

Well personally I feel that hit the nail on the head :-)

I agree just the 'label' of manipulation for someone who is acting out unconcious emotional needs can certainly be harsh...considering we would use the word 'manipulation' for someone who consciously and with ill intent coerces another to get their needs met.

But again, in general, the Jewish grandmother who guilts her son because he doesn't show up enough for her - OI VEY!!... and the senator who uses his position of power, and maybe even offers whispers of love, to get in a hot interns pants are both essentially being manipulative to get their needs met ;-)

Yes as you pointed out a few times... our society does NOT foster healthy emotional expression of needs...nor did most of our childhood upbringing. Personally , I think like you expressed, I don't go around labeling people as manipulators because of their unresolved emotional dynamics... so I would say it is not a label you need to own!!

Hi Wendy,

Thanks for posting your sister's chart and for sharing some of her bio.  I still do not feel I am the greatest with charts but will try to look at it this weekend.  The thing that stuck out for me was her Mars in Balsamic phase to Pluto/Uranus, so my understanding is that this signifies that she has been working on all these themes for many, many lifetimes and is quite familiar with them.  Balsamic signifies releasing in preparation for the new.  I am not sure how to interpret this information in the context of your sister's bio at this time.  Need to think about it.  The Gibbous phase is the phase opposite the Balsamic, so perhaps that is in play - continually feeling thwarted by the world outside and thus continually retreating.  Mars (separating desires/the need to act) is finishing up in the first house (who am I?/instinctual).  While Pluto/Uranus are in the 2nd house (values/self-sufficiency).  The need to instinctually pursue creative purpose to solidify a more solid sense of self and values to help stabilize the trauma, perhaps. This would facilitate the release?  Again, will need to think about this.  Just interesting to me to have this juxtaposition present in the chart.......

Peace,
Ellen

Hello Patricia and everyone!

Wow - it's great to see this thread move so fast.

I'm so glad for your contribution Patricia as you are an EA expert.  

Quote from: PatriciaW on Jul 08, 2011, 10:00 AM........being in the spiritual state of evolution does not necessarily mean that co-dependant dynamics or other emotional complexes such as alienation etc.. do not happen. They just happen with more conscious awareness (eventually)...with the underlying intention of bringing about a deeper relationship with the divine within.............  

I completely agree with you on this.  It's actually very heartening to read that people in the Spiritual evolutionary condition may still experience co-dependent dynamics or other emotional complexes, with the difference being that they are MORE AWARE of these dynamics than people in the other evolutionary states.

Quote from: PatriciaW on Jul 08, 2011, 10:00 AMBecause certainly it isn't the intention of the universe for you to be rejected, but thru mirroring it is only pointing out these things.

I find the universe is gentle - and in fact quite brilliant - in getting the lesson across through the use of other people mirroring any emotional imbalance, over-dependency, over-neediness or manipulation to me.  Phrased another way, if I am SO NEEDY, then can the other person really help me?  No.  I have learned this lesson over and over again.  Another person cannot provide the depth of HEALING that I am searching for - another person cannot do the inner work for me - that is my own responsibility.  This inner work naturally builds maturity and strength (Capricorn polarity) and redefines my self-image.

Nurturing the divine relationship within - the self-image or the sense of who I am from within myself - is the true way to healing.  Loving, accepting, nurturing, understanding and caring for that little girl within.  This is SELF-HELP.  Eventually transforming that wounded self-image into one of trust in the universe, and trust in oneself to heal oneself from within.  Where the broken wing is healed, and then allowed to soar.

It's great that we can "go within" and express the richness of our inner world here on the EA messageboard.  I am tuned into the natural strength, beauty, wateriness and UNdistortion of that inner world.  Cancer love leads to Piscean love.  This is the power to heal the world, by gently steering us away from the woundedness of the patriarchy so that natural matriarchal principles can flow once again.


Hello Ellen,

Personally I like the use the word "manipulation" as it is a good reminder of what I am leaving behind!  It is very strong medicine for me.  

Quote from: PatriciaW on Jul 08, 2011, 09:51 PM
Ellen said <<<<Perhaps MANIPULATION can be defined more as an attempt to get FALSE needs met........?  To violate the other (violate the trust - Scorpio trine) >>>>>

Well personally I feel that hit the nail on the head :-)

I agree just the 'label' of manipulation for someone who is acting out unconcious emotional needs can certainly be harsh...considering we would use the word 'manipulation' for someone who consciously and with ill intent coerces another to get their needs met.

But again, in general, the Jewish grandmother who guilts her son because he doesn't show up enough for her - OI VEY!!... and the senator who uses his position of power, and maybe even offers whispers of love, to get in a hot interns pants are both essentially being manipulative to get their needs met ;-)

Thanks, Pat.  This makes sense to me...... Seems to make more sense to me when there are truly lopsided power imbalances......


Yes as you pointed out a few times... our society does NOT foster healthy emotional expression of needs...nor did most of our childhood upbringing. Personally , I think like you expressed, I don't go around labeling people as manipulators because of their unresolved emotional dynamics... so I would say it is not a label you need to own!!

Thank you, again....

Quote from: Linda on Jul 08, 2011, 09:57 PM
Hello Patricia and everyone!

Wow - it's great to see this thread move so fast.

I'm so glad for your contribution Patricia as you are an EA expert.  

Quote from: PatriciaW on Jul 08, 2011, 10:00 AM........being in the spiritual state of evolution does not necessarily mean that co-dependant dynamics or other emotional complexes such as alienation etc.. do not happen. They just happen with more conscious awareness (eventually)...with the underlying intention of bringing about a deeper relationship with the divine within.............  

I completely agree with you on this.  It's actually very heartening to read that people in the Spiritual evolutionary condition may still experience co-dependent dynamics or other emotional complexes, with the difference being that they are MORE AWARE of these dynamics than people in the other evolutionary states.

Quote from: PatriciaW on Jul 08, 2011, 10:00 AMBecause certainly it isn't the intention of the universe for you to be rejected, but thru mirroring it is only pointing out these things.

I find the universe is gentle - and in fact quite brilliant - in getting the lesson across through the use of other people mirroring any emotional imbalance, over-dependency, over-neediness or manipulation to me.  Phrased another way, if I am SO NEEDY, then can the other person really help me?  No.  I have learned this lesson over and over again.  Another person cannot provide the depth of HEALING that I am searching for - another person cannot do the inner work for me - that is my own responsibility.  This inner work naturally builds maturity and strength (Capricorn polarity) and redefines my self-image.

Nurturing the divine relationship within - the self-image or the sense of who I am from within myself - is the true way to healing.  Loving, accepting, nurturing, understanding and caring for that little girl within.  This is SELF-HELP.  Eventually transforming that wounded self-image into one of trust in the universe, and trust in oneself to heal oneself from within.  Where the broken wing is healed, and then allowed to soar.

It's great that we can "go within" and express the richness of our inner world here on the EA messageboard.  I am tuned into the natural strength, beauty, wateriness and UNdistortion of that inner world.  Cancer love leads to Piscean love.  This is the power to heal the world, by gently steering us away from the woundedness of the patriarchy so that natural matriarchal principles can flow once again.


Hello Ellen,

Personally I like the use the word "manipulation" as it is a good reminder of what I am leaving behind!  It is very strong medicine for me.
 
Yes, I can understand that.....  Thanks for what you wrote.  I highlighted what really struck me.  Beautiful.

Another inspiration comes to mind.......(T-Neptune through my 4th speaking now!)

Regardless of WHERE the nurturing love comes from - it can come from within - or it can be extended to us from without - or we can extend it out to others - is there really any difference in all of these expressions???  

If we are ALL ONE, that same healing force works within AND without.  It heals us within - it heals our external relationships - and it heals our world (the collective).  

The point is, it BEGINS from within (Cancer self-healing) - is then extended out to others (Scorpio transformational healing) - and influences our relationship with the Universe (Pisces divine healing).  This water triad is necessary for evolution to take place.

It just goes to show that caring and nurturing do not end in childhood - these qualities continue to be essential in adulthood (integrating into the Capricorn polarity).  

QuoteMOST OF THE WORLD IS NOT IN SELF-RESPONSIBILITY WITH THEIR EMOTIONS, THUS THEY ARE PROJECTED OUTWARD, WHEN REAL HEALTHY EMOTIONAL EXPRESSION COMES OUT PEOPLE JUST CAN'T HANDLE IT--ONE THING THAT THE SPIRITUAL NEW AGE WORLD SUGGESTS IS NOT FEELING, BUT IF YOUR KARMIC LESSON IS TO BECOME EMOTIONALLY SELF-RELIANT THAN EMOTIONAL OVERFLOW IS NECESSARY WHILE FORMING THE CONTAINER.

Whoever wrote this, this is beautiful!

It's what I've always believed and practised - and is incredibly liberating for my inner emotional world!



{I'm getting a little confused as to whom is writing what.  Can we improve this format somehow?  Thanks.}

Quote from: PatriciaW on Jul 08, 2011, 09:05 PM
Just a few thoughts on the chart Wendy posted.....As I look at the Pluto conj moon in the 2cnd in relation to SN in AQ in the 7th, what I see reiterates some of what you have said already. Conforming to, or being forced to conform to others expectations has been a way of life, causing personal splitting and fragmentation. Many past life scenarios pop into mind, but the strongest that comes into focus for me involves the death of children (in utero or otherwise) in sexual servitude or shameful scenarios. Such as"¦ Being a "˜breeder' slave..used to become impregnated repeatedly with children then suffering them being  taken away, getting pregnant as a prostitute or sexual slave and having to repeatedly abort or actually kill new borns and/or raise them to become sexual servants themselves  (leading to immense guilt -Virgo),  Also being impregnated by a religious figure ( Pisces/Virgo- Catholic church) and outed, killed and/or cast out(AQ) because of that"¦the imprint there , being the one who carries all the shame, betrayal by someone trusted, disillusionment etc.

Yes, this describes the energy Kelly carries.

Putting that into context of what you told us about her already"¦.isn't it interesting that in the womb her mother was almost forced to abort her, which she did not"¦but later, same Mother forced her to abort 3x's?  

Yes, our mother remained in regret her entire life that she didn't go to school.  She took it out on us and then enacted the abortion scenario thru my sister--horrible trauma for my sister.

Libra on the cusp of 4th house with BML there, Venus ruler of that house conj Nept and Lillith in Scorpio"¦

Mother was put under pressure to "˜conform to others expectations' but rebelled ( Lillith) but perhaps her rebellion was only a way to use the baby to get her own unresolved child needs met..by marrying your Father (BML in Libra conj 4th house cusp).  

Yes, this is exactly what happened, she ran to my father's family to get away from her parents.  Mother was a Libra sun in the 8th house, Virgo Chiron and Venus, same SN Aquarius as my sister, but in the 1st house with Uranus conjunct Mars in the 4th, NN in the 7th--she was a sex addict.

Pluto conj moon also reiterates that. The point being that all these pre-natal circumstances would be a replay symbolically of your sister's personal karmic story.

Yes plus Ceres!  

Pluto in the 2cnd retro is certainly going to make her quite isolated and running back to whatever little security she feels , coupled with the obvious trauma of the AQ SN. How sad that when she did reach for her authentic self - wanting to be a social worker ( Sag Sun- which is ruler of NN) she was shamed (6th house) , it seems she has- life after life-become so estranged from her authentic self that she will need a lot of help in this life to get back there. But look at NN conj the asc"¦ the promise there is that if she can get back to her instinctual self"¦tune into what her natural gifts are she can overcome all that inherited guilt which blocks her knowing her authentic self.

A suggestion comes to mind that you might be able to (when the time is right for both of you) create a burial ritual for the present life aborted ones she had when she was younger. Doing that can have a few purposes"¦ 1) to honor those spirits and make sure they are at rest, 2) Many times I work with women who have had abortions even in adulthood and with a clear conscious, but when we go deeper with that, quite frequently there are still unresolved guilt or other emotional dynamics, doing such a ritual would also be to let your sister connect with what is unresolved there from this life and others"¦

And give her the opportunity to "˜atone' for any guilt that may be there by honoring the unborn spirits and laying them to rest. 3) to do this gently and with great respect is to also honor the part of her that went thru that as a young girl.

Spoke with her therapist yesterday, and have a session scheduled with the three of us to assist her more deeply.  I have known for a long time she needs soul retrieval type work, but she is just not ready to integrate it.  Your suggestion Patricia is a good place to start with this present life, thru ritual to heal the wounds.  From there her psyche will reveal when and how to reclaim the split off parts of her.

Patricia, thank you for your insights and very helpful confirmations and suggestions.  I really appreciate you taking the time to response so generously.  

Blessings,
Wendy

Quote from: Linda on Jul 08, 2011, 10:46 PM

QuoteMOST OF THE WORLD IS NOT IN SELF-RESPONSIBILITY WITH THEIR EMOTIONS, THUS THEY ARE PROJECTED OUTWARD, WHEN REAL HEALTHY EMOTIONAL EXPRESSION COMES OUT PEOPLE JUST CAN'T HANDLE IT--ONE THING THAT THE SPIRITUAL NEW AGE WORLD SUGGESTS IS NOT FEELING, BUT IF YOUR KARMIC LESSON IS TO BECOME EMOTIONALLY SELF-RELIANT THAN EMOTIONAL OVERFLOW IS NECESSARY WHILE FORMING THE CONTAINER.

Whoever wrote this, this is beautiful!

It's what I've always believed and practised - and is incredibly liberating for my inner emotional world!

{I'm getting a little confused as to whom is writing what.  Can we improve this format somehow?  Thanks.}

Hi Linda, thanks--I wrote this. 

I realized the capital letters were making my posts overwhelming to read.  I will make them more clear. 

Hi Wendy,

Examination of Kelly's Cancer dynamics


With Kelly's Moon in Virgo she would be having a real hard time with not only her inner self-image but her outer physical image (Moon ruling Ascendant) and actualizing her purpose (Sun Sag 6th) of self-purification, realignment with natural laws, and the ability to integrate self-identity on a moment to moment basis (Moon widely squares the Sun).  

Saturn conjunct SN shows an inability to establish her own authority within relationships while the NN Leo 1st shows that she needs to develop her own individuality and take her own new paths.  Venus naturally ruling her 7th house and found in the 4th in Scorpio symbolizes the dominant mother who "manipulated" her into having several abortions.  

Needing the mother's love, she was deluded into doing something that betrayed her own self (Scorpio 4th).  Lucifer and Vertex in the 5th house graphically correlate to those abortions.  

The Jupiter/Pluto opposition shows a severe resistance to natural law and to a higher will since they are ruled by Neptune in her 4th.  She needs to surrender to a higher will but feels cut off from Source because she carries a lot of guilt.

Ruler of her 4th house is Venus in Scorpio conjunct Neptune and Lucifer (stellium) and this points to inner guilt (ruler Pluto/Virgo), extremes (Venus), denial (Neptune) and being convinced that what she did was right when it was obviously wrong (Lucifer).   Furthermore, the Moon in new conjunction to Pluto means not thinking things through enough.  

She would have to learn to accept responsibility for her actions (Saturn conjunct SN) and the choices her Soul has made (Pluto 2nd, Scorpio 4th, Lucifer 5th).  

I don't know "why" these things happened to her - but perhaps these experiences were a re-living of past events allowing her to let go of the guilt (Pluto/Virgo) associated with survival/children/mother etc, and to realize that because she is not perfect she will need to forgive herself from within herself.

Uranus ruling her 8th house (death) is in balsamic conjunction to Pluto, with an opportunity for surrender to a higher power that will bring liberation from the traumas of the past (SN Aquarius 7th).

I agree with Patricia that a ceremony would be a good way to honor the souls of the aborted, and to bring her some inner peace and healing.  

Hi All,

RE: manipulation....  I TOTALLY GET IT!  Thank you!

Peace,
Ellen

Quote from: Linda on Jul 08, 2011, 10:21 PM
Another inspiration comes to mind.......(T-Neptune through my 4th speaking now!)

Regardless of WHERE the nurturing love comes from - it can come from within - or it can be extended to us from without - or we can extend it out to others - is there really any difference in all of these expressions???  

If we are ALL ONE, that same healing force works within AND without.  It heals us within - it heals our external relationships - and it heals our world (the collective).  

The point is, it BEGINS from within (Cancer self-healing) - is then extended out to others (Scorpio transformational healing) - and influences our relationship with the Universe (Pisces divine healing).  This water triad is necessary for evolution to take place.

It just goes to show that caring and nurturing do not end in childhood - these qualities continue to be essential in adulthood (integrating into the Capricorn polarity).  

Linda,

This is beautiful and seems totally true to me....

Warmly,
Ellen

Quote from: Ellen on Jul 09, 2011, 12:36 PM

Quote from: Linda on Jul 08, 2011, 10:21 PM
Another inspiration comes to mind.......(T-Neptune through my 4th speaking now!)

Regardless of WHERE the nurturing love comes from - it can come from within - or it can be extended to us from without - or we can extend it out to others - is there really any difference in all of these expressions???  

If we are ALL ONE, that same healing force works within AND without.  It heals us within - it heals our external relationships - and it heals our world (the collective).  

The point is, it BEGINS from within (Cancer self-healing) - is then extended out to others (Scorpio transformational healing) - and influences our relationship with the Universe (Pisces divine healing).  This water triad is necessary for evolution to take place.

It just goes to show that caring and nurturing do not end in childhood - these qualities continue to be essential in adulthood (integrating into the Capricorn polarity).  

Linda,

This is beautiful and seems totally true to me....

Warmly,
Ellen

Agreed!

Hi All.. I agree with all said. Someone mentioned earlier the Pluto Mars balsamic phase... add to that also the 29 degree asc/desc and 0 degree nodes...so yes lots of culminating and initiating signatures in this chart. The nodes themselves being in Cardinal houses....so an ending and new beginning. There would be of course a lot more to say about this chart, but then we would deviate off the Cancerian theme of this thread. My apologies for not using the quote feature...I still haven't gotten that down. And no Linda I'm not an EA expert...I always feel like a beginner when it comes to EA :-)

Linda
I noticed that the discussion in the current Mercury thread have veered towards the Cancer theme as that chart has a Saturn in Cancer square the nodes and NN in the 4th...interesting :-)

It might be a bit ambitious to propose, since I'm also preparing to begin travels for about a month ( leaving on Wed) but maybe you could discuss your perceptions of the Moon thru the signs... how each might express a wounded and healthy self-image and emotional reality?
I've been searching for my JWG disc on the Psycho Dynamics of the Moon to no avail thus far...but if any of you have that , it would certainly be great material to revisit.....

Hi All,

I've been studying up on Capricorn for my own personal studies and while not Cancer, it is the polarity.  Re: manipulation, I found these 2 quotes to be very interesting.  Not EA (both from Liz Greene's Saturn book), but I thought apropos:

"There is nothing we hate so much as accepting responsibility for our actions and our fate, although man wants so desperately to believe that he is free.  And when responsibility is taken, it is usually coloured black and called sin, which is an equally useless attitude." (p. 12, 1976 version)

"The nature of this conflict between conscious and unconscious, dark and light, is neither good nor evil; it is necessary for growth because out of it comes eventual integration and greater consciousness." (p. 12 also).

I understand what everyone is saying about manipulation and have come to a place of acceptance of it.  But what Greene (Liz) says here also addresses some of the perspective I was expressing.  In a way, to call something manipulative is to make a (Capricorn) judgment.  So to the extent that one might be castigating oneself, sort of wielding against oneself an external standard/judgment re: one's behavior, that is maybe where my questioning comes in.  It is not wrong to try to get one's needs met.  To me this is natural and normal.  The fact that these efforts occur in unhealthy (manipulative) ways reflects the wounding that our cultures of today so typically manifest.  Yet at the same time, we have chosen these times and these experiences so that we can learn and grow.  If the word "manipulative" is descriptive (using HEALTHY cultural standards to help one understand oneself more - to grow and change -, I understand.  If it is judgmental towards oneself or others (using UNHEALTHY cultural standards to unconstructively blame oneself), I'm not so sure I agree with it.

Enough said!  Hope it makes sense and thanks for bearing with me!

Warmest wishes,
Ellen

Hey Wendy,

Just wanted you to know I'll follow along with the charts but probably won't add much... Not there yet!

Well wishes,
Ellen

Hi Wendy... Just wondering...did you ask permission to put his chart up here?

Hi Wendy...I realized this morning that maybe I should have sent you that question privately... otherwise it appears I might be accusing you of mis-posting a chart. In actuality I don't have a personal issue with it... but when I looked at the chart I got an 'inner' NO!!.... Which from a look at the symbols in his chart may simply be the deep energy of the fear of being 'outed and examined'...  Anyway just clarifying why I asked the question :-) .... Patricia

Interesting question Patricia.  I too began to feel that same feeling when I posted the chart.  I did not ask his permission.  Since so many charts on this forum have been examined, and I assume without permission, I thought it would be okay, as there is no name attached to the chart, and looking deeply into it is for the purposes of analyzing the Cancer archetype.

I can take the chart down if that is what the EA forum feels is best.

Thank for your forethought,
Wendy

Hi Wendy... well there you have it ... 2 out of 2 weird feelings confer :-) As I said for me I think it relates to his wounding around being exposed (actually being on both sides of that energy) Nodes squared.. relating back a his defensive emotional nature.  As well as a few other reasons which I won't go into... but personally I wish to respect that "psychic boundry" and leave this chart alone :-)
I'll only be on sporadically anyway, as I'll be traveling as of tomorrow till Aug 9...

Bright Blessings...

Thanks Patricia--I will remove the chart.

Hi Ellen

Quote from: Ellen on Jul 10, 2011, 10:52 AM

...In a way, to call something manipulative is to make a (Capricorn) judgment.  So to the extent that one might be castigating oneself, sort of wielding against oneself an external standard/judgment re: one's behavior, that is maybe where my questioning comes in.  It is not wrong to try to get one's needs met.  To me this is natural and normal.  The fact that these efforts occur in unhealthy (manipulative) ways reflects the wounding that our cultures of today so typically manifest.  Yet at the same time, we have chosen these times and these experiences so that we can learn and grow.  If the word "manipulative" is descriptive (using HEALTHY cultural standards to help one understand oneself more - to grow and change -, I understand.  If it is judgmental towards oneself or others (using UNHEALTHY cultural standards to unconstructively blame oneself), I'm not so sure I agree with it.

Jeffrey always taught that judgment (Capricorn) is inherent to consciousness.  The issue is not judgment but what is the basis of the judgments being made.  When one is aligned with what is natural (natural law) the basis of the judgments is healthy.  Otherwise, distorted.

Natural judgment gives us a yardstick against which we can measure self - was I (or he or she) aligned with natural intention when I/they (fill in blank).  If not, that is a measure of room for improvement (Virgo).  If yes, it is self-validating that one is on their intended path. 

Manipulative means trying to impose one's desired outcome on life.  To me manipulation is never part of natural intent.  Natural comes down to accepting "what is is, and what isn't isn't".  We go for what we desire.  We are supposed to.  Natural means knowing how to discern when, based on results (or lack of results), what I desire is not what is intended.  If I continue trying to make something happen after realizing its not what's intended (or remain in denial), that is manipulation.  If I don't go after what I want, that is not spiritual, that is laziness.  Discernment is knowing the difference - when to strive, and when to let go and accept.
Steve

Quote from: Steve on Jul 12, 2011, 10:28 PM
Hi Ellen

Quote from: Ellen on Jul 10, 2011, 10:52 AM

...In a way, to call something manipulative is to make a (Capricorn) judgment.  So to the extent that one might be castigating oneself, sort of wielding against oneself an external standard/judgment re: one's behavior, that is maybe where my questioning comes in.  It is not wrong to try to get one's needs met.  To me this is natural and normal.  The fact that these efforts occur in unhealthy (manipulative) ways reflects the wounding that our cultures of today so typically manifest.  Yet at the same time, we have chosen these times and these experiences so that we can learn and grow.  If the word "manipulative" is descriptive (using HEALTHY cultural standards to help one understand oneself more - to grow and change -, I understand.  If it is judgmental towards oneself or others (using UNHEALTHY cultural standards to unconstructively blame oneself), I'm not so sure I agree with it.

Jeffrey always taught that judgment (Capricorn) is inherent to consciousness.  The issue is not judgment but what is the basis of the judgments being made.  When one is aligned with what is natural (natural law) the basis of the judgments is healthy.  Otherwise, distorted.

Hi Steve,  Thanks..  Agreed.  This is exactly what I was saying.......


Natural judgment gives us a yardstick against which we can measure self - was I (or he or she) aligned with natural intention when I/they (fill in blank).  If not, that is a measure of room for improvement (Virgo).  If yes, it is self-validating that one is on their intended path. 

Yes, again.  Agreed.


Manipulative means trying to impose one's desired outcome on life.  To me manipulation is never part of natural intent.  Natural comes down to accepting "what is is, and what isn't isn't".  We go for what we desire.  We are supposed to.  Natural means knowing how to discern when, based on results (or lack of results), what I desire is not what is intended.  If I continue trying to make something happen after realizing its not what's intended (or remain in denial), that is manipulation.  If I don't go after what I want, that is not spiritual, that is laziness.  Discernment is knowing the difference - when to strive, and when to let go and accept.
Steve

The part that I highlighted is what I've been zeroing in on in my posts.... I think this is a difficult discernment and I think we (individually and culturally) tend to be harsh in our assessments/judgments.  It's one thing to recognize, on some level, that something's not working.  It's another thing to understand all the wounding and lack that has driven the behavior and yet another to know how to then respond to that in a way that allows healing to occur.  It is a process.  It takes time.  I feel that when judgment is used to condemn, it interferes with the instinct for healing.  When judgment is used simply as a means of recognizing and understanding what is/isn't working, it facilitates the healing/growth process.  Best I can do at trying to explain what I'm trying to get at.......

Well wishes,
Ellen

Hi Ellen

QuoteI think this is a difficult discernment and I think we (individually and culturally) tend to be harsh in our assessments/judgments. 

Judgments based on what is natural are not harsh, they are appropriate.  Sometimes what is appropriate can seem strong.  When its a time for that, it is not harsh, its appropriate.

If our approach is too soft or too strong, its a deviation from what is intended.

QuoteIt's one thing to recognize, on some level, that something's not working.  It's another thing to understand all the wounding and lack that has driven the behavior and yet another to know how to then respond to that in a way that allows healing to occur. 

There really is no thinking or analysis required for any of that. Its just to operate from one's intuition, which is aligned with what is intended and appropriate.  You just know, without knowing how you know.  And then you carry out what you know.  It's that simple.

When the brain gets overly involved, doubting the intuitions, that is how the distortions enter in.  "It can't be that, it must be this.  I can't do that, etc." That is what we need to drop.  To re-learn to trust the natural process that we innately feel.

QuoteI feel that when judgment is used to condemn, it interferes with the instinct for healing. 

Naturally judgment never condemns.  It simply points out what is there to say. Because of people's wounding they may perceive what was said as condemning.  That doesn't necessarily mean it was. 

Distortions of what is natural do condemn.  If something is truly condemning its not coming from a natural place.

QuoteWhen judgment is used simply as a means of recognizing and understanding what is/isn't working, it facilitates the healing/growth process. 

This is the essence of natural judgment.  That is the whole point.  When judgment is not coming from that place it is not natural judgment. 

Our own wounds keep us from being able to discern the difference.  As we start recognizing what each feels like the discerning of the difference gets easier.
Steve

Quote from: Steve on Jul 13, 2011, 03:33 PM

Our own wounds keep us from being able to discern the difference.  As we start recognizing what each feels like the discerning of the difference gets easier.

Steve, This is EXACTLY what I'm getting at!

Steve

Hi Ellen

Quote from: Ellen on Jul 13, 2011, 05:14 PM

Our own wounds keep us from being able to discern the difference.  As we start recognizing what each feels like the discerning of the difference gets easier.

Steve, This is EXACTLY what I'm getting at!

That's great. 

So many of us are so wounded we don't even recognize what natural is when we trip over it.  We've forgotten.  All I was doing was speaking into that.  The more I feel my way back to that place the simpler I perceive it really is, that place I mean.
Steve

Quote from: Steve on Jul 13, 2011, 07:04 PM
Hi Ellen

Quote from: Ellen on Jul 13, 2011, 05:14 PM

Our own wounds keep us from being able to discern the difference.  As we start recognizing what each feels like the discerning of the difference gets easier.

Steve, This is EXACTLY what I'm getting at!

That's great.  

So many of us are so wounded we don't even recognize what natural is when we trip over it.  
True. (And made me laugh...)
We've forgotten.  All I was doing was speaking into that.
I understand.
The more I feel my way back to that place the simpler I perceive it really is, that place I mean.
Yes.  I feel, as you said above, that the discerning gets easier with the recognition of how it feels (especially in contrast to how the other feels).
Steve