Alright, get ready... and go!
Aries, Mars, 1st house corresponds to the path of personal self discovery that unfolds for each soul on a moment to moment and instinctual basis - this is an archetype of continual becoming.
Here are some topics to explore:
- The nature of "action and reaction".
- The natural inconjunct formed with Scorpio. And while we're at it, with Virgo as well.
- Within that "fear of entrapment"
- Mars as the lower octave of Pluto
- The nature of desire in general: how the desires of the soul translate through the impulses of Mars.
I'm going to try to stay on top of this thread as much as I can, though I may be away a couple or a few days at a time on occasion.
God speed (-; With Love,
Ari Moshe
Hi Ari,
Thanks for starting this thread. And congratulations re: writing the forward to the new edition of Pluto I - I look forward to reading it!
I actually have a question about Aries - something that has just confounded me since the very first time I started learning about it from an EA perspective. Aries is "the original anxiety of separation". I just don't understand it! On the one hand, it is Aries is the outward moving energy - so naturally moving out from the center (this would be separation, yes?). On the other hand, what it naturally does --> anxiety. So this is one level of my confusion about this. Why is it that the very NATURE of Aries --> anxiety of separation?
On the next level: to me there seems to be an implicit judgement about "separating" desires with the original anxiety of separation statement. I cannot tell if this is indeed true or if this is my own filters preventing me from hearing what is actually being said. But if it is not my filters and what is indeed being said, then I'm not understanding. It seems to me that creation is a part of the Divine - a natural and necessary part. So if this is so, and if Aries is the impulse towards that - the separative impulse that initiates creation - then how is separation intrinsically anxiety producing? Is this only so within the context of a distorted patriarchal society? For example, if childbirthing practices were more in line with the actual needs of the new being being birthed, and so the necessary comfort and connection was established immediately that is required to anchor this new creation in the world, would there be an original anxiety of separation? Or, rather, would that original anxiety come into play as it would be immediately recognized and addressed through appropriate cultural practices. Does this make sense? This statement about Aries has just had me twisted around since day 1!!
Finally, I don't think I fully understand the inconjunct from Scorpio to Aries --> original anxiety of separation. Scorpio= separating and returning desires at the level of the Soul. Aries=separating and returning desires (or is it only separating desires) at the subjective level. This subjective level is the level at which we are able to discern the desires of the Soul. So, while I understand that the inconjunct = crisis, I don't understand what exactly the crisis is here? Again, Aries by nature moves out from the center. But that is necessary for the ongoing sense of discovery that needs to occur. So why does this carry with it crisis? What IS that?
If you are confused, then you understand! Because I am very confused about this!
Thanks to anyone who takes a stab at this!
Ellen
I am just reading about the Aries archetype in "God Herself" (by Geraldine Thorsten) and while I don't know that I fully understand yet, I am thinking possibly that much of the answer to my questions in my previous post might have to do with the fear aspect of Aries. In the book, Thorsten describes how women (the original "tamers" of fire), would use fire to keep predators away during childbirth. Life certainly seemed to be quite precarious during those earlier days and perhaps this can explain the inconjunct "crisis" and the "original anxiety of separation". I have been looking at it from my very privileged contemporary western experience. It does seem, however, that the Libra polarity (and its trines to Aquarius and Gemini) suggests the way to work with and balance that anxiety - or at least is the logical energy to draw on to bring Aries back into balance.... So when that DOESN'T happen, Aries manifests in a completely imbalanced way...
Ellen
Hi Ellen, I'm going to re-read the Pluto Aries chapter and reflect on your questions, in the mean time I'm sure others will have something to add. Thanks for your questions. Also, perhaps you'd like to give a shot at answering some of your own questions as well?
am
Quote from: ari moshe on Mar 20, 2011, 08:14 PM
Hi Ellen, I'm going to re-read the Pluto Aries chapter and reflect on your questions, in the mean time I'm sure others will have something to add. Thanks for your questions. Also, perhaps you'd like to give a shot at answering some of your own questions as well?
am
Hi Ari,
Thank you... I'm looking forward to any thoughts you might come up with! You may have missed my last post. I took a shot at answering my own question in that post - the answer involves an understanding of the impact that fear would have....... I will continue to reflect on my questions and continue to seek out resources to help me answer them and offer whatever I come up with (if anything!). Thanks for your encouragement...
Best wishes,
Ellen
Thanks Ari...for encouraging us to try to answer Ellen's questions, and for your suggested topics to explore. I've been listening and watching the section on the Aries archetype on the School's DVD.
Quote from: Ellen on Mar 19, 2011, 11:41 PMI actually have a question about Aries - something that has just confounded me since the very first time I started learning about it from an EA perspective. Aries is "the original anxiety of separation". I just don't understand it! On the one hand, it is Aries is the outward moving energy - so naturally moving out from the center (this would be separation, yes?). On the other hand, what it naturally does --> anxiety. So this is one level of my confusion about this. Why is it that the very NATURE of Aries --> anxiety of separation?
Great questions Ellen! As we know, the archetypes don't exist in a vacuum. If the Aries archetype did exist in a vacuum, imagine the anxiety that that would create! ;D Perhaps one of the lessons of the Aries archetype is to open up to the other archetypes - to connect (Libra) - so that the "anxiety" of separation is lessened. Aries
in relation to other archetypes could reveal some answers. Regarding the "original anxiety of separation," separation from what?
Separation from the Womb (Aries square Cancer). Insecurity is triggered at the moment of birth when the baby leaves the familiarity and safety of the womb, to be born into a new life, in which it needs the comfort and nurturing of the mother through bodily warmth, re-connection, milk, etc. If the baby were left alone to fend for itself, it would die: hence, the anxiety of separation.
Separation from Nature (Aries trine Sagittarius). Separation from our natural relationship with Nature came about through 8,000 years of patriarchal distortion. The distortion of the Aries archetype correlated to thousands of years of men fighting relentless wars based on the patriarchal model of tyranny, thus deforming human nature.
Separation of the Sexes (Grand cross Aries - Libra - Cancer - Capricorn). With men fighting relentless wars came the separation between the sexes. Distortion resulted in dysfunctional, unequal (Libra) sadomasochistic relationships (Aries inconjunct Virgo), the subjugation of the feminine (Cancer), the suppression of the natural sexual function (Capricorn), consensus limits on freedom (Capricorn), and abuses such as rape (Mars opposite Pluto).
Separation from Freedom (Aries inconjunct Scorpio). Aries needs absolute freedom, while Scorpio needs commitment. This crisis, universal to all, creates a subconscious fear of entrapment that would limit the freedom to become.
Separation from Truth (Aries trine Sagittarius). The psychology of perpetual violence had affected mainstream religion causing mass confusion and disillusionment. Knowing right from wrong is natural.
(See Adina's latest in the Pluto/USA thread, where in the UK it will soon become illegal to run Soup Kitchens for the poor!) :o Separation from our Rights (Aries square Capricorn). To bring about causal change in the archetypes. Examples, men and women exercising their right to say "no" to horrors such as conscription to war, resisting a corrupt system, etc. It takes courage to say no to what is wrong.
Separation from God (transcendence through Pisces). God created Creation and Souls separate from God. Similarly, Souls create an ego in each life and "co-create" just like God by making babies. Souls separate themselves through Separating desires, and reconnect through Returning desires. "Separation" is intrinsic to the act of creation since the creation is based on polarities.
All of these types of separation could be the cause of unresolved anger and rage within the Soul in past and present lives. Aries is the
fundamental right to freedom in the continual act of "becoming." And each Soul has the freedom to choose what it is to "become," and what it desires to "create." All desires correlate to Mars/Pluto: Mars, the conscious awareness of the desire nature emanating from Pluto, the Soul.
I'm not sure where "judgment" of the Aries archetype originates from. Another distortion? Perhaps an examination of judgment as it correlates to Capricorn and its square to Aries may yield some results. We have the Sun, Mercury, Jupiter and Uranus transiting Aries now....and I hope we'll be able to address all of your questions.
Hi Ari, Ellen and Linda,
Good start to the Aries thread !
Some more thoughts on these topics ...
The innocence of Pisces carries over to Aries, but all it's universal aspects have been stripped away to leave just a core innocence of self. Aries is the sign that is the most aware of itself, and this awareness is very concentrated. The increased awareness of itself means it is largely unaware of much else other than itself. This might normally be pretty depressing, except Aries core innocence protects it from that, and instead it is happy to be what it is, as any innocent self is naturally happy within itself - it's built in.
However, while Aries is happy to be, the increased awareness of itself does produce an equally acute awareness of "all that isn't Aries". It's not that Aries is much concerned about "all that isn't Aries" - no, its naturally centered in itself and simply happy in being that way. But Aries has an active and keen intelligence, and being aware that there is an awfully big amount of "all that isn't Aries" it feels at a subconscious level something not being quite right with everything ("everything" - the deep soul memory carried over from Picses of Oneness).
It's simple happiness at being able to just be itself is disturbed (usually at a subconscious level) by the contrast presented in the way it intuitively perceives it's life situation - as that of being just a "dot" (self) within the universe ("all that isn't Aries"). The Aries situation is ... being naturally happy due to it's inherently totally simple and uncluttered nature, yet never being able to relax into that happiness because it's obviously incomplete. And Aries immediately senses that that doesn't "add up". And the "pain" of separation arises then and there immediately and directly from this intuitive knowing, and this becomes the underlying shadow of Aries - it's subconscious insecurity and lack of confidence, self doubt, in total - a deep hidden anxiety.
And Aries increased sense of itself makes sure this anxiety is carried wherever Aries goes. This leads Aries into it's search, the driving need to explore and discover more and more of and about itself, with all the attendant needs of absolute freedom, self focus, no limitations or interference from others whatsoever, and absolutely no demands from anyone else - to maximise it's chances of succeeding in it's quest.
Does this make sense?
blessings Upasika
Hi Linda, (I had addressed this to Upasika but it was Linda's post that got me thinking.... So sorry, Linda.... I have so much going on right now I'm not focusing in as closely as I need to...!)
Thanks so much for your responses to my questions.......
Aries-Freedom/Independence: This one might actually solve the dilemma for me. Part of my struggle to understand the "original anxiety of separation" is that it seemed to me to be only in relation to patriarchy and so I was trying to understand if such an anxiety would intrinsically exist in a more accommodating environment. Now I think I'm getting it. Intrinsic to Aries is the need for freedom/independence, as you point out. And, as you also point out, there is the need for relationship (Libra polarity) and also comfort and nurturing (Cancer square). So, as I am understanding it now, the "original anxiety of separation" is this crisis and conflict between the need to be independent and the need to be connected. Both are true. I had been interpreting the "original anxiety of separation" as almost a negation of the need for independence - in other words, the Aries need for independence as a kind of willful reaction to the reality of separation that comes at birth - so the independence not as something really wanted, but something forced upon it - so fundamentally coming from a place of weakness than a place of strength (and so a "negative" statement about creation itself). Now I see it more as a struggle between 2 equally genuine needs.. There is both the reality of creation (separation) and the reality of connection (union). Perhaps the solution is in discovering the reality that the divine is within - thus there is no separation in creation...? Not sure that this is RIGHT. But I feel that I can make more sense of it now....
Will read through the rest of your post later today.... Thank you!!
Best,
Ellen
Hi Linda and Upasika,
Should be able to take these in more thoroughly later today or tomorrow, then be able to respond more fully. Thank you (!) for your thoughts on this!
Best wishes,
Ellen
Quote from: Upasika on Mar 21, 2011, 07:52 AM
However, while Aries is happy to be, the increased awareness of itself does produce an equally acute awareness of "all that isn't Aries". It's not that Aries is much concerned about "all that isn't Aries" - no, its naturally centered in itself and simply happy in being that way. But Aries has an active and keen intelligence, and being aware that there is an awfully big amount of "all that isn't Aries" it feels at a subconscious level something not being quite right with everything ("everything" - the deep soul memory carried over from Picses of Oneness).
It's simple happiness at being able to just be itself is disturbed (usually at a subconscious level) by the contrast presented in the way it intuitively perceives it's life situation - as that of being just a "dot" (self) within the universe ("all that isn't Aries"). The Aries situation is ... being naturally happy due to it's inherently totally simple and uncluttered nature, yet never being able to relax into that happiness because it's obviously incomplete. And Aries immediately senses that that doesn't "add up". And the "pain" of separation arises then and there immediately and directly from this intuitive knowing, and this becomes the underlying shadow of Aries - it's subconscious insecurity and lack of confidence, self doubt, in total - a deep hidden anxiety.
And Aries increased sense of itself makes sure this anxiety is carried wherever Aries goes. This leads Aries into it's search, the driving need to explore and discover more and more of and about itself, with all the attendant needs of absolute freedom, self focus, no limitations or interference from others whatsoever, and absolutely no demands from anyone else - to maximise it's chances of succeeding in it's quest.
Does this make sense?
blessings Upasika
Hi Upasika,
On a first quick read through it makes sense. I want to read through it again and let it settle in. I'm feeling that you have really hit upon something...
Best,
Ellen
Thanks Ellen, I did miss your post about childbirth.
You bring up a great point about separation anxiety as it relates to the patriarchy. To me, there is an inherent connection. Aries does require absolute freedom and autonomy in the same way that a 2 year old needs to have the freedom to be a two year old. However does a 2 year old, by its nature necessarily experience the anxiety of separation? Today, for the most part yes, however innately, the answer is no.
If mother is always experienced to be there, if there is never a sense of leaving the wholeness, if the entire individuation occurs within the context of the wholeness, then there is no anxiety. Aries then expresses as a focused and directed will who knows that separation is not possible. Like a 2 year old who always understands that mommy is right around the corner.
Ellen, you asked about Mars, if it also corresponds to separating and returning like Pluto. As I understand it, on one level Mars is just the fuel. Through Aries there is the imperative, the mission to be in CONSTANT motion. To where is this motion leading the soul? That's where the impulses is Aries can serve EITHER the separating desires of the soul or the desire to return. Ultimately, within the context of patriarchy, the crisis symbolized by the Scorpio Aries inconjunct symbolizes perpetual, insatiable desire - this generating various crisis as karma is created through these desires. Karma creates limitations (square Capricorn) on Aries' absolute freedom. All of this is constructed as a way for the soul to align it's own independence and freedom with the actual path of return to Source. And so the way it is today, the crisis of separation anxiety can ultimately serve as a catalyst to propel evolution.
am
Hi Linda,
Thanks so much for your post. It is very helpful to see it addressed within the context of the other signs. It is interesting to me because there seems to be 2 distinct kinds of separation anxieties based on what you've written: natural and manmade. Natural:
separation from the womb
separation from God
separation from freedom
The rest seem to be the result of the effects of patriarchy:
separation from nature
separation of the sexes
separation from truth
separation from our rights
To me, you make a really good point about these latter being cause for anger in the Aries archetype. And this anger being karmically carried over to new lives.
What I keep coming back to as I read through yours and others' responses is the question of the significance of culture/environment re: the degree to which this natural response is expressed in Aries (given that, as observers, we are aware of it primarily by the actions we see that indicate anxiety of separation as an underlying factor). Even with the "natural" forms of separation anxiety, it seems to me that these can be easily alleviated by appropriate and attentive cultural practices that bring the newborn and growing child into alignment with connection and caring and at the same time honor her/his need for independence and discovery. I have Aries (Jupiter in Aries) square the nodes (SN skipped steps) and Mars conjunct SN. I have spent the majority of my life feeling quite angry and alienated and adrift. I have been working with an extremely skillful healer over the last few months and very recently I have actually experienced the sense of "secure attachment" - something I have NEVER even remotely felt/experienced in this lifetime. It has been very grounding for me and I have been feeling myself more and more aware of "who I am" and that within the context of feeling connected to Spirit. All hard to explain but it has been informing my thoughts re: Aries so I wanted to try to articulate it. Even with the "natural" anxieties, I am thinking, given my recent experiences, that even these can be attributed to the patriarchy in the sense that there exists a fundamental lack in terms of cultural practices. Not 100% sure about this. Upasika has brought up an interesting perspective that I am wanting and needing to consider, though I am wondering if "wonder" might not be a way to explain the discrepancy that he is noticing and that that sense of wonder is part of what propels Aries forward...
Still thinking about it all.. Curious about any feedback you might have...
Best wishes,
Ellen
Quote from: Linda on Mar 21, 2011, 12:47 AM
Thanks Ari...for encouraging us to try to answer Ellen's questions, and for your suggested topics to explore. I've been listening and watching the section on the Aries archetype on the School's DVD.
Quote from: Ellen on Mar 19, 2011, 11:41 PMI actually have a question about Aries - something that has just confounded me since the very first time I started learning about it from an EA perspective. Aries is "the original anxiety of separation". I just don't understand it! On the one hand, it is Aries is the outward moving energy - so naturally moving out from the center (this would be separation, yes?). On the other hand, what it naturally does --> anxiety. So this is one level of my confusion about this. Why is it that the very NATURE of Aries --> anxiety of separation?
Great questions Ellen! As we know, the archetypes don't exist in a vacuum. If the Aries archetype did exist in a vacuum, imagine the anxiety that that would create! ;D Perhaps one of the lessons of the Aries archetype is to open up to the other archetypes - to connect (Libra) - so that the "anxiety" of separation is lessened. Aries in relation to other archetypes could reveal some answers. Regarding the "original anxiety of separation," separation from what?
Separation from the Womb (Aries square Cancer). Insecurity is triggered at the moment of birth when the baby leaves the familiarity and safety of the womb, to be born into a new life, in which it needs the comfort and nurturing of the mother through bodily warmth, re-connection, milk, etc. If the baby were left alone to fend for itself, it would die: hence, the anxiety of separation.
Separation from Nature (Aries trine Sagittarius). Separation from our natural relationship with Nature came about through 8,000 years of patriarchal distortion. The distortion of the Aries archetype correlated to thousands of years of men fighting relentless wars based on the patriarchal model of tyranny, thus deforming human nature.
Separation of the Sexes (Grand cross Aries - Libra - Cancer - Capricorn). With men fighting relentless wars came the separation between the sexes. Distortion resulted in dysfunctional, unequal (Libra) sadomasochistic relationships (Aries inconjunct Virgo), the subjugation of the feminine (Cancer), the suppression of the natural sexual function (Capricorn), consensus limits on freedom (Capricorn), and abuses such as rape (Mars opposite Pluto).
Separation from Freedom (Aries inconjunct Scorpio). Aries needs absolute freedom, while Scorpio needs commitment. This crisis, universal to all, creates a subconscious fear of entrapment that would limit the freedom to become.
Separation from Truth (Aries trine Sagittarius). The psychology of perpetual violence had affected mainstream religion causing mass confusion and disillusionment. Knowing right from wrong is natural. (See Adina's latest in the Pluto/USA thread, where in the UK it will soon become illegal to run Soup Kitchens for the poor!) :o
Separation from our Rights (Aries square Capricorn). To bring about causal change in the archetypes. Examples, men and women exercising their right to say "no" to horrors such as conscription to war, resisting a corrupt system, etc. It takes courage to say no to what is wrong.
Separation from God (transcendence through Pisces). God created Creation and Souls separate from God. Similarly, Souls create an ego in each life and "co-create" just like God by making babies. Souls separate themselves through Separating desires, and reconnect through Returning desires. "Separation" is intrinsic to the act of creation since the creation is based on polarities.
All of these types of separation could be the cause of unresolved anger and rage within the Soul in past and present lives. Aries is the fundamental right to freedom in the continual act of "becoming." And each Soul has the freedom to choose what it is to "become," and what it desires to "create." All desires correlate to Mars/Pluto: Mars, the conscious awareness of the desire nature emanating from Pluto, the Soul.
I'm not sure where "judgment" of the Aries archetype originates from. Another distortion? Perhaps an examination of judgment as it correlates to Capricorn and its square to Aries may yield some results. We have the Sun, Mercury, Jupiter and Uranus transiting Aries now....and I hope we'll be able to address all of your questions.
Hi Upasika,
I posted one thought I had about what you had written at the end of my last post to Linda. Still mulling over all of it though.......
Best wishes,
Ellen
One more thought I had about all this: thinking about those early women creating fire circles to ensure safety during childbirth, this would be a very natural and normal and necessary anxiety that would set things up for the Taurus emphasis on survival, then the Gemini emphasis on information collecting, etc. So there would seem to be levels at which this would play out: the very basic level in which survival needs are the primary influence. But then as more experience is had and more knowledge is gained, etc, these basic survival needs are taken care of so that the whole experience of childbirth and childrearing can take place on an entirely different level. Thus the original anxiety itself ultimately leads to the establishment of practices and customs and relationships and childbearing/raising practices that sensitively respond to this understandable original anxiety. And thus Aries is ultimately freed from this original anxiety, freed to proceed in wonder..........?
Upasika,
I am wondering if for you that sense of being a small dot might be true within the context of a new and frightening world (those 1st women forming fire circles), but that perhaps it might be experienced differently (wonder instead of anxiety) as, culturally and individually speaking, a greater sense of safety was secured....?
Quote from: ari moshe on Mar 21, 2011, 12:33 PM
Thanks Ellen, I did miss your post about childbirth.
You bring up a great point about separation anxiety as it relates to the patriarchy. To me, there is an inherent connection. Aries does require absolute freedom and autonomy in the same way that a 2 year old needs to have the freedom to be a two year old. However does a 2 year old, by its nature necessarily experience the anxiety of separation? Today, for the most part yes, however innately, the answer is no.
This is a really good point, Ari. It seems to me that the natural expression of a 2 year old is more of exhilaration and daring/curiosity than it is of anxiety/fear.....Perhaps the anxiety can be explained as the result of unskillful response to this basic and natural drive....?
If mother is always experienced to be there, if there is never a sense of leaving the wholeness, if the entire individuation occurs within the context of the wholeness, then there is no anxiety. Aries then expresses as a focused and directed will who knows that separation is not possible. Like a 2 year old who always understands that mommy is right around the corner.
This makes sense to me...
Ellen, you asked about Mars, if it also corresponds to separating and returning like Pluto. As I understand it, on one level Mars is just the fuel. Through Aries there is the imperative, the mission to be in CONSTANT motion. To where is this motion leading the soul? That's where the impulses is Aries can serve EITHER the separating desires of the soul or the desire to return. Ultimately, within the context of patriarchy, the crisis symbolized by the Scorpio Aries inconjunct symbolizes perpetual, insatiable desire - this generating various crisis as karma is created through these desires. Karma creates limitations (square Capricorn) on Aries' absolute freedom. All of this is constructed as a way for the soul to align it's own independence and freedom with the actual path of return to Source. And so the way it is today, the crisis of separation anxiety can ultimately serve as a catalyst to propel evolution.
am
I am pondering this last part........ Curious about the difference between insatiable desire (unbalanced Aries) vs. a kind of perpetual state of wonderment that seems to propel one on to each new and exciting experience/endeavor.........
Best wishes,
Ellen
Just reading a book called, Finding Our Center: Wisdom from the Stars and Planets in Times of Change, by Heather Ensworth (influenced by JWG). In it she discusses the Ages, including the Age of Aries. Monotheistic religions take hold. The Divine is seen as transcendent instead of imminent. Abraham is willing to sacrifice his son at the command of his "god". Very interesting chapter. To me, this is distorted Aries - Aries that fails to recognize the crucial importance of relationship (HUMAN relationship and also relationship with nature). Everything about it is separation (Ensworth makes this point) and, it seems to me, not natural at all. Indeed, to me it strikes me as an act of insanity to be willing to take your son to a mountain top to sacrifice him in obedience to a "god" - the exact opposite of love and caring, which every child needs if she/he is to grow up healthy and secure and caring. With natural relationship dismissed as irrelevant, Libra becomes expressed as manmade law - and thus, control - as a means of securing at least some kind of order (Ensworth points this out). Perhaps this historical transition can be seen as the root of this original anxiety of separation as a kind of way of being in this world......
One thought about this: perhaps the anxiety that Aries is inclined to feel can be understood as a signal that it has strayed too far off the path and is in need of returning in some way - or regaining - that original sense of wonder. Whenever I hear that story of Abraham, I feel such a sense of heaviness, not lightness (I mean, I feel that that is the energy of Abraham proceeding on that course). There is nothing light or right about it. Perhaps that is a sign for Aries - a way of discerning which action/direction is in line with Source...
Quote from: ari moshe on Mar 21, 2011, 12:33 PM
Thanks Ellen, I did miss your post about childbirth.
You bring up a great point about separation anxiety as it relates to the patriarchy. To me, there is an inherent connection. Aries does require absolute freedom and autonomy in the same way that a 2 year old needs to have the freedom to be a two year old. However does a 2 year old, by its nature necessarily experience the anxiety of separation? Today, for the most part yes, however innately, the answer is no.
If mother is always experienced to be there, if there is never a sense of leaving the wholeness, if the entire individuation occurs within the context of the wholeness, then there is no anxiety.
There is also no anxiety if its will is understood and facilitated, as opposed to dominated, controlled and broken as is generally the practice today......
Aries then expresses as a focused and directed will who knows that separation is not possible. Like a 2 year old who always understands that mommy is right around the corner.
Ellen, you asked about Mars, if it also corresponds to separating and returning like Pluto. As I understand it, on one level Mars is just the fuel. Through Aries there is the imperative, the mission to be in CONSTANT motion. To where is this motion leading the soul? That's where the impulses is Aries can serve EITHER the separating desires of the soul or the desire to return. Ultimately, within the context of patriarchy, the crisis symbolized by the Scorpio Aries inconjunct symbolizes perpetual, insatiable desire - this generating various crisis as karma is created through these desires. Karma creates limitations (square Capricorn) on Aries' absolute freedom. All of this is constructed as a way for the soul to align it's own independence and freedom with the actual path of return to Source. And so the way it is today, the crisis of separation anxiety can ultimately serve as a catalyst to propel evolution.
am
Quote from: ari moshe on Mar 21, 2011, 12:33 PM
Ellen, you asked about Mars, if it also corresponds to separating and returning like Pluto. As I understand it, on one level Mars is just the fuel. Through Aries there is the imperative, the mission to be in CONSTANT motion. To where is this motion leading the soul? That's where the impulses is Aries can serve EITHER the separating desires of the soul or the desire to return. Ultimately, within the context of patriarchy, the crisis symbolized by the Scorpio Aries inconjunct symbolizes perpetual, insatiable desire - this generating various crisis as karma is created through these desires. Karma creates limitations (square Capricorn) on Aries' absolute freedom. All of this is constructed as a way for the soul to align it's own independence and freedom with the actual path of return to Source. And so the way it is today, the crisis of separation anxiety can ultimately serve as a catalyst to propel evolution.
am
Hi Ari,
I am still struggling with the idea that separating desires are somehow intrinsically "wrong" or somehow less desirable from a spiritual perspective than returning desires. (I think that that is what you are suggesting in the above quote....). The struggle for me hinges on the whole question of creation. If creation itself was created by God/Source, and creation is an act of separation, then can it be argued that separating desires are inferior to returning desires? Thinking along these lines its seems to me that even returning desires can be outside Source - it being a matter of how one is relating to those desires - are they genuine/sincere or willful and aggressive? So I'm thinking that the trick re: Aries is in fact to be in constant communion with the Divine as it follows its desires (as it must due by its very nature), whether it be riding the wave of creation (separation) or riding the wave of return........So then perhaps the "original anxiety of separation" could be argued to about an adjustment that has to occur with that piscean communion (thinking here of Upasika's post) perhaps somehow lost, at least momentarily, as this shift to constant motion (as you point out) occurs in Aries......???????? .
Quote from: Ellen on Mar 21, 2011, 05:42 PMI am still struggling with the idea that separating desires are somehow intrinsically "wrong" or somehow less desirable from a spiritual perspective than returning desires. (I think that that is what you are suggesting in the above quote....). The struggle for me hinges on the whole question of creation. If creation itself was created by God/Source, and creation is an act of separation, then can it be argued that separating desires are inferior to returning desires? Thinking along these lines its seems to me that even returning desires can be outside Source - it being a matter of how one is relating to those desires - are they genuine/sincere or willful and aggressive? So I'm thinking that the trick re: Aries is in fact to be in constant communion with the Divine as it follows its desires (as it must due by its very nature), whether it be riding the wave of creation (separation) or riding the wave of return........So then perhaps the "original anxiety of separation" could be argued to about an adjustment that has to occur with that piscean communion (thinking here of Upasika's post) perhaps somehow lost, at least momentarily, as this shift to constant motion (as you point out) occurs in Aries......????????
Hi Ellen,
Having read all your posts, I feel your underlying questioning could relate to the Aries/Virgo inconjunct. Virgo is on a mission of self-improvement and service to others, while Aries is on a mission of self-discovery which, evolutionarily speaking, will ALWAYS lead it to consider others, as the Libra polarity is built-in to it.
Example: The 1st stage Spiritual evolutionary condition correlates to Virgo: and I would imagine that here the Aries/Virgo inconjunct could bring crisis such as your questioning, and this would lead to making necessary adjustments.
All the archetypes are created by God'ess for their specific function. There is no right or wrong archetype. I think the judgment here could be man-made ... since God'ess allows us, through free will, to take whatever path we desire. It is OUR choice to fulfill a separating or returning desire ... leading to face the karmic consequences of that choice (Libra rules choice, while Aries is unplanned action). ALL desire originates in the Soul for its evolutionary requirements.
All paths lead to God'ess - even this very impulse begins in Aries - since there is a beginning to every intention. An interesting relationship to note is that between natal Mars and Pluto, and the phase that they are in. JWG taught that generally each evolutionary intention (Pluto, PPP, Nodes) is played out over 8 lifetimes (or 8 primary phases). Each life will project an evolutionary progression describing how far along the Soul has come in working through the original intention. In the last phases, the resistance is going to be less, and the conscious awareness is going to be higher as compared to the initial phases.
Ellen said: "If creation itself was created by God/Source, and creation is an act of separation, then can it be argued that separating desires are inferior to returning desires?" Remember that God is an evolving force ... it is not perfect. I see separating/returning desires as a "process" created by Source that enables evolution.
Well, it's interesting that the transiting Sun, Mercury, Jupiter and Uranus in Aries are now inconjunct Virgo, and Uranus will be for a long time.
Hi Ellen,
QuoteI am still struggling with the idea that separating desires are somehow intrinsically "wrong" or somehow less desirable from a spiritual perspective than returning desires. (I think that that is what you are suggesting in the above quote....). The struggle for me hinges on the whole question of creation. If creation itself was created by God/Source, and creation is an act of separation, then can it be argued that separating desires are inferior to returning desires? Thinking along these lines its seems to me that even returning desires can be outside Source - it being a matter of how one is relating to those desires - are they genuine/sincere or willful and aggressive? So I'm thinking that the trick re: Aries is in fact to be in constant communion with the Divine as it follows its desires (as it must due by its very nature), whether it be riding the wave of creation (separation) or riding the wave of return........So then perhaps the "original anxiety of separation" could be argued to about an adjustment that has to occur with that piscean communion (thinking here of Upasika's post) perhaps somehow lost, at least momentarily, as this shift to constant motion (as you point out) occurs in Aries......??
It's not a matter of wrong or not wrong it's a matter of what the reality is. Our desires are absolutely unavoidable. The very fact of being here implies desire. In truth (Pisces) there is no separation that has ever occurred. However the reality as we experience it, is that we do have a multitude of desires, all of which originate from an unconscious place. We have to pursue them - so there's no judgement about that at all.
Mars can operate in two ways:
Perusing desires to satiate something that can never be satiated.
To consciously embrace a path of separation that will assist the soul in it's evolutionary journey (which is all about inhabiting in some way, and then exhausting all separating desires).
It's kind of like the identity structure that says "I'm going to get enlightened". That drive does in fact fuel a spiritual path. However the aspiriation itself, while it is a motivation, ULTIMATELY, is just another hindrance. Eventually the will of the soul to achieve something becomes aligned with absolute surrender. This is the anxiety of the individual will - I am doing something, I am on a path to something. The entire sense of personal purpose is, in and of itself, both a motivator and a cause of absolute anxiety as it persistently insists on there being a separate self that is doing the seeking (which is antithetical to "goal" of the seeking, which is union) ! That's the conflict, and within that tension is also the resolution as it does eventually yield an absolute surrender.
Hi Linda,
Bless you (!) for reading all my posts and responding. Didn't realize just HOW many I posted until after the fever was OVER! ;D
I'm not sure I'm fully understanding the Aries/Virgo inconjunct as it relates to my burning confusion but I trust that you see something there so I will continue to reflect on it.
I think for me THE main thing that is coming out of this is the realization of my reaction to what seems to be the equation: creation=separating act and separating act=lost one's way. I find that I can't accept those correlations. As I am working through this I am beginning to understand that the way that makes sense for me to think of this is to separate out the separating desires from the act of creating such that creation is not intrinsically faulty. Rather, one's state of mind/being is what is important - is one acting in union with the divine or in separation from the divine. To me, from this perspective, it is possible for creation to be "in union" with the divine. I agree that god'ess is imperfect and is it/herself evolving, but to me that does not necessarily imply that there is somehow something intrinsically mistaken about the act of creation. I see creation (as I think you do) as part of the process of evolution (part of the ONGOING process of evolution). So to equate creation with mistake is problematic for me and thus where the central issue is for me...
Hope this makes sense!
Wishing you well always, Linda,
Ellen
Ari,
Thank you. I think you've hit on it but I will need to read it through a few more times...
Best,
Ellen
Quote from: ari moshe on Mar 21, 2011, 09:01 PM
Hi Ellen,
QuoteI am still struggling with the idea that separating desires are somehow intrinsically "wrong" or somehow less desirable from a spiritual perspective than returning desires. (I think that that is what you are suggesting in the above quote....). The struggle for me hinges on the whole question of creation. If creation itself was created by God/Source, and creation is an act of separation, then can it be argued that separating desires are inferior to returning desires? Thinking along these lines its seems to me that even returning desires can be outside Source - it being a matter of how one is relating to those desires - are they genuine/sincere or willful and aggressive? So I'm thinking that the trick re: Aries is in fact to be in constant communion with the Divine as it follows its desires (as it must due by its very nature), whether it be riding the wave of creation (separation) or riding the wave of return........So then perhaps the "original anxiety of separation" could be argued to about an adjustment that has to occur with that piscean communion (thinking here of Upasika's post) perhaps somehow lost, at least momentarily, as this shift to constant motion (as you point out) occurs in Aries......??
It's not a matter of wrong or not wrong it's a matter of what the reality is. Our desires are absolutely unavoidable. The very fact of being here implies desire. In truth (Pisces) there is no separation that has ever occurred. However the reality as we experience it, is that we do have a multitude of desires, all of which originate from an unconscious place. We have to pursue them - so there's no judgement about that at all.
Mars can operate in two ways:
Perusing desires to satiate something that can never be satiated.
To consciously embrace a path of separation that will assist the soul in it's evolutionary journey (which is all about inhabiting in some way, and then exhausting all separating desires).
It's kind of like the identity structure that says "I'm going to get enlightened". That drive does in fact fuel a spiritual path. However the aspiriation itself, while it is a motivation, ULTIMATELY, is just another hindrance. Eventually the will of the soul to achieve something becomes aligned with absolute surrender. This is the anxiety of the individual will - I am doing something, I am on a path to something. The entire sense of personal purpose is, in and of itself, both a motivator and a cause of absolute anxiety as it persistently insists on there being a separate self that is doing the seeking! That's the conflict, and within that tension is also the resolution as it does eventually yield an absolute surrender.
Quote from: ari moshe on Mar 21, 2011, 09:01 PM
Hi Ellen,
QuoteI am still struggling with the idea that separating desires are somehow intrinsically "wrong" or somehow less desirable from a spiritual perspective than returning desires. (I think that that is what you are suggesting in the above quote....). The struggle for me hinges on the whole question of creation. If creation itself was created by God/Source, and creation is an act of separation, then can it be argued that separating desires are inferior to returning desires? Thinking along these lines its seems to me that even returning desires can be outside Source - it being a matter of how one is relating to those desires - are they genuine/sincere or willful and aggressive? So I'm thinking that the trick re: Aries is in fact to be in constant communion with the Divine as it follows its desires (as it must due by its very nature), whether it be riding the wave of creation (separation) or riding the wave of return........So then perhaps the "original anxiety of separation" could be argued to about an adjustment that has to occur with that piscean communion (thinking here of Upasika's post) perhaps somehow lost, at least momentarily, as this shift to constant motion (as you point out) occurs in Aries......??
It's not a matter of wrong or not wrong it's a matter of what the reality is. Our desires are absolutely unavoidable. The very fact of being here implies desire. In truth (Pisces) there is no separation that has ever occurred. However the reality as we experience it, is that we do have a multitude of desires, all of which originate from an unconscious place. We have to pursue them - so there's no judgement about that at all.
Mars can operate in two ways:
Perusing desires to satiate something that can never be satiated.
To consciously embrace a path of separation that will assist the soul in it's evolutionary journey (which is all about inhabiting in some way, and then exhausting all separating desires).
DARN!... It STILL feels to me that there is an intrinsic judgement here re: creation. I am assuming that to exhaust all separating desires is to be finished with incarnation/creation. Linda pointed out the Aries/Virgo inconjunct and what has arisen for me with that is the whole guilt complex associated with that archetype and the denigration of the body (and creation) associated with it through the Judeo-Christian connection. If the equation were: inhabiting-->exhausting-->inhabiting again at a new level...... I wouldn't feel that sense of judgement being made.... What I am hearing (and this is where I may be receiving incorrectly, ie, receiving something other than you and others are intending) is that ultimately the answer is exhaustion of all separating desires and remerging with the divine and that is the end of the process. To me that implies a judgement about creation. We have these desires but they are JUST for the purpose of getting back to the divine...(not about co-creating, to give an example of another possibility.) The other question that I think needs to be asked that might help shed some light is: what is the purpose of evolution? Aries, as being in a continuous state of becoming, is about evolution. Our desires propel us evolutionarily speaking...
Well, this may just go round and round so I understand if you would prefer to just let this question sit as is...... I am not SETTLED, but I feel that I have a much greater understanding of where the sticking point is for me, and perhaps that's the best that can be accomplished!
Best wishes,
Ellen
It's kind of like the identity structure that says "I'm going to get enlightened". That drive does in fact fuel a spiritual path. However the aspiriation itself, while it is a motivation, ULTIMATELY, is just another hindrance. Eventually the will of the soul to achieve something becomes aligned with absolute surrender. This is the anxiety of the individual will - I am doing something, I am on a path to something. The entire sense of personal purpose is, in and of itself, both a motivator and a cause of absolute anxiety as it persistently insists on there being a separate self that is doing the seeking (which is antithetical to "goal" of the seeking, which is union) ! That's the conflict, and within that tension is also the resolution as it does eventually yield an absolute surrender.
Hi Ellen,
QuoteDARN!... It STILL feels to me that there is an intrinsic judgement here re: creation. I am assuming that to exhaust all separating desires is to be finished with incarnation/creation. Linda pointed out the Aries/Virgo inconjunct and what has arisen for me with that is the whole guilt complex associated with that archetype and the denigration of the body (and creation) associated with it through the Judeo-Christian connection. If the equation were: inhabiting-->exhausting-->inhabiting again at a new level...... I wouldn't feel that sense of judgement being made.... What I am hearing (and this is where I may be receiving incorrectly, ie, receiving something other than you and others are intending) is that ultimately the answer is exhaustion of all separating desires and remerging with the divine and that is the end of the process. To me that implies a judgement about creation. We have these desires but they are JUST for the purpose of getting back to the divine...(not about co-creating, to give an example of another possibility.) The other question that I think needs to be asked that might help shed some light is: what is the purpose of evolution? Aries, as being in a continuous state of becoming, is about evolution. Our desires propel us evolutionarily speaking...
I really like what you are saying. Perhaps the patriarchal conditioning may be found in the way I and others understand and communicate our understanding of evolution.
I see how it sounds like there is a "goal" thus implying that there is something to reach - until which point DESIRES are the only thing that get in the way of that reaching. I can feel the judgement in that and sense that there may be a completely other way of looking at this process, one that does not contradict the above understanding, but rather presents evolution as a process that is nurturing and co-creative.
I've come across this many times when I speak of the ea paradigm. I often get asked "It sounds like life is a goal". I know that in a way it is and an a way it isn't. The answer I give is pretty much all I've shared here in the past threads. However I feel there is a more feminine, nurturing WAY of looking at this stuff that I have not yet uncovered in myself. I really appreciate the opportunity to look into this.
You spoke of co-creation, I'd like to hear more about that. And if your up for it, perhaps you can find a way to describe the process of a soul's evolution that is a reflection of a non patriarchal conditioning. That would be really insightful for me and I'm sure others.
With Love,
am
Quote from: ari moshe on Mar 21, 2011, 11:43 PM
Hi Ellen,
QuoteDARN!... It STILL feels to me that there is an intrinsic judgement here re: creation. I am assuming that to exhaust all separating desires is to be finished with incarnation/creation. Linda pointed out the Aries/Virgo inconjunct and what has arisen for me with that is the whole guilt complex associated with that archetype and the denigration of the body (and creation) associated with it through the Judeo-Christian connection. If the equation were: inhabiting-->exhausting-->inhabiting again at a new level...... I wouldn't feel that sense of judgement being made.... What I am hearing (and this is where I may be receiving incorrectly, ie, receiving something other than you and others are intending) is that ultimately the answer is exhaustion of all separating desires and remerging with the divine and that is the end of the process. To me that implies a judgement about creation. We have these desires but they are JUST for the purpose of getting back to the divine...(not about co-creating, to give an example of another possibility.) The other question that I think needs to be asked that might help shed some light is: what is the purpose of evolution? Aries, as being in a continuous state of becoming, is about evolution. Our desires propel us evolutionarily speaking...
I really like what you are saying. Perhaps the patriarchal conditioning may be found in the way I and others understand and communicate our understanding of evolution.
I see how it sounds like there is a "goal" thus implying that there is something to reach - until which point DESIRES are the only thing that get in the way of that reaching. I can feel the judgement in that and sense that there may be a completely other way of looking at this process, one that does not contradict the above understanding, but rather presents evolution as a process that is nurturing and co-creative.
I've come across this many times when I speak of the ea paradigm. I often get asked "It sounds like life is a goal". I know that in a way it is and an a way it isn't. The answer I give is pretty much all I've shared here in the past threads. However I feel there is a more feminine, nurturing WAY of looking at this stuff that I have not yet uncovered in myself. I really appreciate the opportunity to look into this.
You spoke of co-creation, I'd like to hear more about that. And if your up for it, perhaps you can find a way to describe the process of a soul's evolution that is a reflection of a non patriarchal conditioning. That would be really insightful for me and I'm sure others.
With Love,
am
Hi Ari,
Thanks so much for your thoughts - and thoughtful feedback - on this. I will think about your request and see if I can respond in any way tomorrow. For now - SLEEP!
Wishing you well,
Ellen
Hi Upasika,
QuoteIt's simple happiness at being able to just be itself is disturbed (usually at a subconscious level) by the contrast presented in the way it intuitively perceives it's life situation - as that of being just a "dot" (self) within the universe ("all that isn't Aries"). The Aries situation is ... being naturally happy due to it's inherently totally simple and uncluttered nature, yet never being able to relax into that happiness because it's obviously incomplete. And Aries immediately senses that that doesn't "add up". And the "pain" of separation arises then and there immediately and directly from this intuitive knowing, and this becomes the underlying shadow of Aries - it's subconscious insecurity and lack of confidence, self doubt, in total - a deep hidden anxiety.
I really appreciate the way you explained that. I was wondering if you would elaborate on this further? I feel this speaks directly to what we have been discussing here.
An easy example that comes to me is just the nature of our own ascendant and the sign on the 12th house cusp. There is an archetypal semi sextile from one house cusp to the next. The sign on the 12th house correlates to the totality of life and how a soul is to surrender to that totality. It thus corresponds to the specific actions or ways of being that become progressively aligned with the transcendent impulse to know God.
Archetypally, the next sign, the sign on the ascendant, symbolizes the essence of being, doing, thinking, and living for oneself. The natural relationship between the two in our own charts may be a point of insightful self reflection. I know Maurice Fernandez wrote a chapter on this relationship at the end of his Neptune book, if I had it with me I'd look into it.
Quote from: ari moshe on Mar 21, 2011, 11:43 PM
Hi Ellen,
I really like what you are saying. Perhaps the patriarchal conditioning may be found in the way I and others understand and communicate our understanding of evolution.
I see how it sounds like there is a "goal" thus implying that there is something to reach - until which point DESIRES are the only thing that get in the way of that reaching. I can feel the judgement in that and sense that there may be a completely other way of looking at this process, one that does not contradict the above understanding, but rather presents evolution as a process that is nurturing and co-creative.
I've come across this many times when I speak of the ea paradigm. I often get asked "It sounds like life is a goal". I know that in a way it is and an a way it isn't. The answer I give is pretty much all I've shared here in the past threads. However I feel there is a more feminine, nurturing WAY of looking at this stuff that I have not yet uncovered in myself. I really appreciate the opportunity to look into this.
You spoke of co-creation, I'd like to hear more about that. And if your up for it, perhaps you can find a way to describe the process of a soul's evolution that is a reflection of a non patriarchal conditioning. That would be really insightful for me and I'm sure others.
With Love,
am
Hi Ari,
Co-creation - the phrase and the concept - comes from my reading of and listening to the teachings of Abraham. Abraham is Source energy channelled by Esther Hicks and these teachings are the original source of all the Law of Attraction teachings. Until I came across the Abraham material, I was pretty uninterested in and skeptical of Law of Attraction material but as I have become acquainted with the original teachings I am understanding that my skepticism was a reaction to articulations of it that, to me, left out the very core of the teaching, which is essentially the attunement of emotion and desire. I'll explain it here as best I can as I think this might be the best articulation of a life-affirming orientation to creation that I have come across. Please note that this is my interpretation of the teachings so may not be an accurate reflection of what they are actually teaching, but I will do my best. So, this collective entity known as Abraham talks about Source energy as growing and expanding and that this is a joyful thing and that desire is the mechanism that allows this growth to occur. At this moment in time, human beings are at what they call "the leading edge of creation" (though in the future it may not be humans but a more evolved being...). The teaching, which I find to be quite profound, is that our emotions are our guides on this leading edge and that the whole work of manifestation is in tuning into one's emotions so that you can become more consciously aware of one's desires. Whether one is experiencing negative or positive emotion, one is communicating through this mechanism what one is wanting and this thing that is being communicated is what will manifest. So, if one is experiencing anger about this or that, this thing that one is feeling angry about will manifest. If one is feeling happy about this or that, this thing that one is feeling happy about will manifest. Law of Attraction is the law of vibration: whatever we are vibrating, we attract. By getting in tune with our emotions, we can become more aware of what we are attracting. And by learning to understand what our emotions are telling us, we can become more skillful re: what we attract. I find it to be profound work because it's NOT about going all pollyanna. That in fact doesn't work because in fact the actual vibration - the vibration beneath the surface, is not addressed and so there will be no change in what one is attracting. It's about recognizing negative emotion for what it is - an indication of a desire - and then working to bring yourself, emotionally-speaking, up to speed with that desire. So if I'm angry about, I don't know - the fact that I can never afford the education I want, then if I look into that what I see is that what I want is the education I'm wanting. Then I see that my emotional attunement - anger at not having what I want - has in fact been attracting to me the very thing that I don't want - not being able to get the education because I'm focusing on the lack and law of attraction says that you will get what you focus your attention on. So my work is to get myself, emotionally-speaking, into alignment with what I ACTUALLY want - which is the education I'm wanting. That way law of attraction can line up for me what I'm actually wanting rather than what I'm not wanting. I don't know if I've managed to communicate this in a way that articulates the depth and profundity - and also life-affirmingness - of these teachings, but I've done the best I can I think so I'll leave it at that. One thing I do take issue with re: the teachings is their insistence that you don't need to go back to the past to change the present and in my own healing work I have found it to be absolutely essential and invaluable to go back to the past as it has been the only way for me to be able to understand the emotions I have had in the present. But I suspect if I approached them with this question we might be able to find a place of agreement. One thought I've had about this is that, initially, when one's emotional alignment is SO far off, it might be absolutely essential to look to the past as that might be the best way to begin sorting out one's emotions. But as one heals, perhaps it becomes less and less necessary to focus on the past as one's emotional responses become more and more about the now as one heals......?
Well, hope this helps.........
Best wishes always,
Ellen
Hi Ari,
Well I feel you have identified the point here exactly, the Pisces/Aries or 12th/1st pair of archetypes and it would be good to know what Maurice had to say about it. Anyway, as we know, the vast majority of souls on the planet are still working through their separating desires, only those few who have become fully self realised, merged back into the Source, are exempt. And the zodiac (Aries through to Pisces) describes this journey of separating away from the source and returning. The zodiac describes the Eastern "wheel of life and death", the endless merry-go-round of chasing separating desires until only the one desire, to return, remains.
Each sign encapsulates the human experience and understanding of an aspect of life, of this journey. However once a soul has become fully self realised it has liberated itself from this wheel. So the degree of separation felt by any soul is relative to it's stage of evolution, it's progress in eliminating separating desires. Some souls with a Pisces Sun can be filled with separating desires and have little conscious awareness of the Source, and some souls with an Aries Sun can have relatively few separating desires and a significant amount of conscious awareness of the Source.
When a child is born (Cancer) the separation from the womb occurs. If the environment in which this happens is a relatively harsh uncaring hospital environment then that separation will be experienced strongly. Contrasted to a water birth in a loving softly lit home environment, where the experience of separation from the womb can be minimised. The separation here is from the sense of oneness that the womb provided. It is primarily (though not totally) a direct physical/emotional experience. For a soul with planet(s) in Cancer this experience continues in some shape or form throughout life. But this is different to the sense of separation that Aries feels, which is more of a psychological/spiritual nature.
There is a connection between Aries and Pisces not shared by any other pair of signs, in that they demark the very beginning and ending of the zodiac cycle of signs itself. Pisces is the understanding and experience of the oneness.associated with being merged back into the Source, and Aries is the understanding and experience of the exact opposite of that, of being an individual consciousness separate from everything else it is conscious of. The distance in experience between the two is greater than that of any other pair of signs.
The Aries underlying sense of Pisces is very strong because of this, similar to the way signs opposite sense each other as being relatively unknown yet having what each other lacks. Aries senses Pisces as the "ultimate unknown" and having everything that it lacks. But they are also closer than any other pair as well in a sense, in that it is from the culminating Pisces backdrop that Aries arises in a whole new upward spiralling cycle of development. It senses Pisces as "where I have come from", a feeling that produces a deep urge to begin anew on the journey home. From Aries position, this journey home will entail yet another round of development through all the following signs.
This is where I feel Linda's post tying in Aries, and it's sense of separation, to the other signs comes into play. As Aries proceeds on it's journey it inevitably must encounter the different conscious understandings and psychology of the other signs, and inevitably will be affected/influenced accordingly, either in a supportive, stimulating or challenging way. Every other sign will highlight for Aries something that is incomplete in Aries, more so than any other sign will experience such contrasts.
The cardinal cross is generally a challenge to Aries to face it's separation square on, a kind of either/or situation eg work with society or not (Capricorn), open to nurturing or not (Cancer), connect with others or not (Libra). The trines encourage Aries to use it's natural openness to the new to easily grow from it's position to be more than what it is - being creative within it's freedom (Leo), moving from self interest into understanding nature (Sag). The sextiles provide a platform for Aries, an opportunity, to see itself as part of something more valuable than it could ever achieve by itself on it's own - learning about people and situations (Gemini) and being part of a group with all the richness that can provide (Aquarius). The quincunxes are possibly the hardest for Aries as they require patience (in very short supply in Aries) to deal with them, working diligently with that very sense of separation that Aries carries so anxiously in it's shadow. By slowing down and completing everything it starts, conscientiousness, paying attention to it's body not just the energy it has for it's desires, serving others instead of itself (Virgo), and as Linda noted, sacrificing it's freedom (one of the hardest things for an Aries) for the depth of intimacy that committment can bring ,examining it's desires and their worth (as you described) and ultimately allowing itself to be transformed by something or someone (Scorpio). The semisextile to Taurus kickstarts Aries into "all that isn't Aries", through the way Aries listens to and values itself, which it needs to do as part of the process of operating in the world as it pursues it's desires. But the opposition (Libra), being the polarity point, is the key natural growth point.
The instinctive awareness of self and it's separating desires that defines Aries is absolutely necessary as a basis on which all the other signs grow from - each following sign has this core self already absorbed into it, and is developing the consciousness of that self in ever more involved and sophisticated ways, eventually leading to the relative totality of experience that is Pisces ... then back again to Aries for a new cycle on an elevated level, on and on with the wheel of life and death, perpetuated by separating desires, until they finally are no more.
I also relate to Ellen's issue regarding separating desires are not being "inferior" to returning desires as such, and what you have said about that. Somehow I agree with you both. The way I see it is that arriving home, remerging back into the Source, would have no value, wouldn't be so liberating or blissful, if it wasn't for the immensely long and arduous journey the soul has had to undertake in exhausting all it's separating desires. It's this journey that creates the context and meaning of being human in the first place. I don't feel any separating desire is intrinsically good or bad in itself. Everything we do we do because that's what we need to do, regardless of whether it's moral or immoral, negative or positive, constructive or destructive. Intrinsically in everyone there are positive and negative impulses, but it's a question of growth in consciousness that is the significant factor. When a soul twigs onto the fact that every action gives rise to a reaction then the lightbulb is starting to light up. So it will progressively choose positive actions as these tend to give rise to positive reactions, and that feels better. However as JWG says, it can be a bit hard to track this over lifetimes and so positive actions don't always seem to result in positive reactions. Additionally conscious positive people attract negativity out of less conscious (and also possibly more negative) people, simply because the very presence of a conscious person threatens the security of a less conscious person. As Steve has said, on the micro level at least, this stuff isn't necesarily linear. But the point remains which is each soul has a relationship with life, and through extension of that to the Source, it's just a matter of how conscious they are of it. So if there is a goal to me it would have to be to become more conscious, because otherwise chasing the same separating desires endlessly means no end to suffering.
From jumping in with a spontaneous post I've gone into this way more than I intended as it's such a good discussion. But I'm snowed under at the moment with other committments so unfortunately not sure whether I can keep up with you all, much as I would like to. But thanks Ari (and Ellen/Linda) for this thread (and Linda for creating them and all the other amazing things you've been doing on here lately), I'll be at least reading along and absorbing the replies and other posts as best I can.
blessings Upasika
PS. Noticed I have posted this before seeing your last post Ellen, so not sure if some of what I've just said might be irrelevant now given that or not ...
Upasika both your posts on the Aries archetypes are really profound, thankyou.
Hi Upasika,
Not irrelevant at all! Thought-provoking. Will need to keep re-reading them. I feel they communicate a great depth of understanding but at the same time I find myself bracing some in the same manner I have with Ari's posts (which I articulated in a prior post). But I'm not clear if I'm bracing against what is actually there or my own projection (ie, what ISN'T there). I find that bracing interesting and it is what, ultimately, I have been exploring with my posts..... I appreciate your insights and I appreciate the opportunity to explore this with you and the others. One thought I had in thinking about what you said about Pisces being a welcome experience for Aries after its long, arduous journey, was that Pisces is like the hot bath after a long day. That doesn't mean the day was "in error" and it doesn't mean a new day won't come (beginning at a new level as you described). While this helps to explain it in a way that "feels" right to me, I'm aware that in framing it this way it may be that I am distorting what you are actually saying. But actually, for the 1st time I feel myself starting to understand the possibility that indeed a day may come where it would make sense for the cycle to come to rest........ Yet it is important for me to be careful not to use that as a way of minimizing the validity of the cycle itself, of that culmination of rest as somehow suggesting that the cycle itself was in error...... That's the crux of it for me - how to reconcile both.........
Well, all for now. Hope I've made some sense......
Best wishes always,
Ellen
Quote from: Ellen on Mar 22, 2011, 08:30 AM
One thought I had in thinking about what you said about Pisces being a welcome experience for Aries after its long, arduous journey, was that Pisces is like the hot bath after a long day. That doesn't mean the day was "in error" and it doesn't mean a new day won't come (beginning at a new level as you described).
Ellen, that's exactly what I'm meaning !
Quote
I'm aware that in framing it this way it may be that I am distorting what you are actually saying.
No, not in the slightest.
Quote
Yet it is important for me to be careful not to use that as a way of minimizing the validity of the cycle itself, of that culmination of rest as somehow suggesting that the cycle itself was in error
To me the cycle and it's culmination are two sides of the same coin, one can't exist without the other, both are equally valid, none in error.
Quote
Hope I've made some sense......
certainly, for me anyway.
Quote from: Tory on Mar 22, 2011, 08:06 AM
Upasika both your posts on the Aries archetypes are really profound, thankyou.
Thank you Tory, I guess it being a pretty interesting topic also helps ...
Hi Upasika,
Projection is such a tricky thing! Thanks for clarifying!
Best,
Ellen
Quote from: Upasika on Mar 22, 2011, 08:50 AM
Quote from: Ellen on Mar 22, 2011, 08:30 AM
One thought I had in thinking about what you said about Pisces being a welcome experience for Aries after its long, arduous journey, was that Pisces is like the hot bath after a long day. That doesn't mean the day was "in error" and it doesn't mean a new day won't come (beginning at a new level as you described).
Ellen, that's exactly what I'm meaning !
Quote
I'm aware that in framing it this way it may be that I am distorting what you are actually saying.
No, not in the slightest.
Quote
Yet it is important for me to be careful not to use that as a way of minimizing the validity of the cycle itself, of that culmination of rest as somehow suggesting that the cycle itself was in error
To me the cycle and it's culmination are two sides of the same coin, one can't exist without the other, both are equally valid, none in error.
Quote
Hope I've made some sense......
certainly, for me anyway.
One of the areas of consideration that Ari brought up was the inconjunct between Aries/Virgo. Here are some thoughts:
In the context of the discussion going on, to me that inconunct can be seen as the crisis between a guilt-inducing belief system that essentially negates flesh (ie, separation of body and spirit) and thus denigrates desire (?), creating anxiety for the Aries archetype. But this is a crisis that is born out of dysfunction.
What might the natural crisis be?
Aries is desire, Virgo is purification.
Aries is fire (tends not to recognize limits), Virgo is earth (all about limits).
Aries is cardinal (initiating action in the world), Virgo is mutable (inward focused, more liminal-like)
Aries is confident (yes?), Virgo is insecure
Some thoughts for consideration......
Ellen
Addition:.. PS Linda, could you explain a little more about what you were thinking about the Aries/Virgo inconjunct? I don't think I fully understood how you were thinking about that....
Ellen said: "Linda, could you explain a little more about what you were thinking about the Aries/Virgo inconjunct? I don't think I fully understood how you were thinking about that...."
Hi Ellen,
I can't remember exactly what I was thinking about the Aries/Virgo inconjunct - brain's going a bit fuzzy ;D - but perhaps we can review the meaning of the inconjunct:
The Inconjunct: The Most Misunderstood Aspect
(posted by Adina)
The meaning, the definition, of the inconjunct is to realign your sense of personal identity or ego with a higher will or ego called God, and until you do so you have a crisis equaling the inability to manifest what you sense is a possibility or purpose for your life. The nature of an inconjunct is to teach humility at an egocentric level. The way it teaches the humility is to experience a sense of powerlessness or a core sense of inferiority in which you don't feel you're quite ready or good enough to do what your higher mind is suggesting that you can do; and until the conscious linkage is made with a higher power (we can call that God), you are blocked. The Virgo inconjunct (150 degrees) creates a feeling of inferiority. It can equal the archetype of masochism, leading to the sacrificing of one's own ego to a larger whole. A larger whole can even mean a person's needs.
Rad's Quote: In the Gibbous phase Virgo inconjunct, the Soul will inwardly feel that it has something special to do in order to help the environment in some way, of being of service to it in order to help it, yet will inwardly feel not ready, good enough, or perfect enough in order to actualize or fulfill it. Thus, the Soul will find a variety of rational reasons, excuses, of why it will not, can not, do what it feels inwardly drawn to do. The very nature of this type of inconjunct, in the Gibbous phase, is an archetype of self improvement which implies a conscious awareness of that which needs to be improved for it's own evolutionary reasons. Thus, this creates a psychological sense of lack, of that which is not 'perfected' and needs to be improved upon. Typically, this archetype also creates an awareness within the Soul of others who have, or are doing, the same or similar tasks or functions that it feels inwardly drawn to do itself. This awareness can then reinforce the inner sense of not being ready as the Soul compares itself to these others who are perceived to be more perfect or ready than the Soul itself. All this occurs in order for the Soul to know or remember that there is a larger force, or God, behind whatever the special task, function, or capacity is that the Soul is aware of within itself. Thus, the challenge for the Soul is to inwardly align, consciously, with that higher will, or God, so that whatever the task, capacity, or function is is actualized via that conscious alignment. In essence, to realize that God is the doer, and that the path to 'perfection' occurs one step at a time.
Steve's quote: In the spiritual evolutionary condition, one will begin accepting the natural imperfections in divinity - we can't be any more perfect that that which created us. Thus coming to accept the limitations. That being the bridge back from conditioned Virgo to natural Virgo.
Ellen said: What I am hearing (and this is where I may be receiving incorrectly, ie, receiving something other than you and others are intending) is that ultimately the answer is exhaustion of all separating desires and re-merging with the divine and that is the end of the process. To me that implies a judgment about creation. We have these desires but they are JUST for the purpose of getting back to the divine...(not about co-creating, to give an example of another possibility.)
Linda said: Having read all your posts, I feel your underlying questioning could relate to the Aries/Virgo inconjunct. Virgo is on a mission of self-improvement and service to others, while Aries is on a mission of self-discovery which, evolutionarily speaking, will ALWAYS lead it to consider others, as the Libra polarity is built-in to it. Example: The 1st stage Spiritual evolutionary condition correlates to Virgo: and I would imagine that here the Aries/Virgo inconjunct could bring crisis such as your questioning, and this would lead to making necessary adjustments.
Aries correlates with a brand new evolutionary cycle, the desire to initiate actions for the purpose of growth and self-discovery. Yet, Virgo, by the nature of the inconjunct, correlates with deep inner criticism, and will not always feel ready or perfect enough to initiate an intention.
The Aries archetype correlates with the desire to begin something new. Yet, Virgo, by way of the inconjunct, may cause one to feel not ready enough or not perfect enough for this new quest. The inconjunct will create an awareness of others whom are perceived as already achieving that which is desired and to which one is drawn. The Gibbous phase (containing the inconjunct) will attract stronger and more willful people than oneself, making one feel overwhelmed. The new desire comes about after a process of deep inner analysis and self-criticism, and could be construed as the next step to make oneself more perfect or a more pure vehicle through which a spiritual purpose can express itself.
We can also approach this from another perspective: A desire to be of service and to bring about self-improvement would correlate to the Virgo archetype. Yet, Aries, could cause one to feel not ready enough or perfect enough. One may desire to be of service to others, but the warrior instinct or need for freedom may thwart the effort. Aries is fast/impatient, while Virgo is step-by-step, paying attention to detail.
The crisis point: The desire to be of service might be challenged or compromised by the desire to instinctively follow a new path. The egoconcentric orientation of Virgo could be challenged by the egocentric orientation of Aries. The Virgo assignment of correct work function may be resisted by Aries.
What compromises/lessons could the Aries/Virgo inconjunct generate?
- acknowledging larger forces operating in life
- lessons in humility
- the need to look for deeper answers
- changing one's perspective
- if one can get past the delusive sense of not feeling ready enough, the gibbous phase can lead to correct work function
- in essence, to realize that God is the doer, and that the path to 'perfection' occurs one step at a time
- to consciously align with a Higher Will.
Hope some of this is helpful.
Linda,
Amazing! Completely helpful........ Thank you! And, with an Aries/Virgo inconjunct as part of both skipped steps and hiding signatures, I am DEFINITELY AWARE of the work you do - the commitment to it that allows genuine depth to come forth! (And, no, I am not jealous - just inspired!! And I WILL find my own way there, too!! lolol!)
One thing that came up for me re: Virgo IN RELATION to Aries: it seems always to be argued that Virgo feels, incorrectly, that it is not yet ready. In thinking about Aries - and its tendency towards rashness and always onto the next new thing without ever really going deeply into anything - perhaps the Virgo hesitation could be understood as wisdom - a recognition that one can only truly be of service if one has taken the time to master something............ This would be troublesome for Aries, I would think. And this could explain the failure to really ever manifest........ What would be the solution? Well, if Aries is about self-discovery, perhaps making the actual commitment to something - to an in-depth, long term relationship with some area of service (this would be incorporating the Scorpio inconjunct - so the yod formation) - could be seen as a path to self-discovery.....And, in terms of 1st spiritual (Virgo), the desire to make such a commitment would come in response to a felt connection with Source and a sense of direction, perhaps, being felt - so ultimately the commitment one is making is to Source........And Source, in turn, is giving Aries a direction - a field in which it can explore to its heart's content (thinking here of the analogy to the 2-year old; the wise parent will provide a safe and contained environment that allows maximum freedom to explore without danger.....)....Deva, in her book, talks about Aries anger as ultimately a force directed inwardly that allows one to break through barriers. So perhaps in this yod configuration, Aries anger is directed inwardly in response/reaction to the perceived inability to go deeply into anything and thus be of genuine service, and so, with this anger (addition: or maybe it doesn't have to be annger, per se, but just the energy of fire, whether that is anger or not...*), finds a way to break through to a new level (pioneering new ground inwardly..) Something I've been contemplating........ And feeling it to be a more helpful and in depth way to reflect on the Virgo sense of "lack"/not ready/etc....
* And further, perhaps, one could recognize in the Aries anger the desire that lies beneath it - the desire, in the example above, to go deeply into something, and then use that Arien energy to make it happen...... (this is just an alternative way for me to look at/work with anger......)
Love,
Ellen
Hi Ellen,
Quote from: Ellen on Mar 23, 2011, 10:15 AMOne thing that came up for me re: Virgo IN RELATION to Aries: it seems always to be argued that Virgo feels, incorrectly, that it is not yet ready.
Once Virgo feels ready, and done the necessary
inner work (purpose of the Gibbous phase) of attainment of humility...and alignment with a Higher Will....then there's no hesitation in carrying out the correct work function.....fired and powered by Aries!
It's also very important to remember that Aries is carrying out the desires of the Soul. If suddenly one is instinctively lead to follow a new direction, I would say that one should investigate, and allow oneself to be moved along (evolution). The Aries/Virgo inconjunct is actually quite a complementary aspect.
QuoteIn thinking about Aries - and its tendency towards rashness and always onto the next new thing without ever really going deeply into anything - perhaps the Virgo hesitation could be understood as wisdom - a recognition that one can only truly be of service if one has taken the time to master something............
There is wisdom in both Aries and Virgo. Aries is following a directive from the Soul, while Virgo is correlating to necessary inner criticism or self-analysis...and the combination of the two leads to surrender and then to
natural alignment with a Higher Will.
QuoteAnd, in terms of 1st spiritual (Virgo), the desire to make such a commitment would come in response to a felt connection with Source and a sense of direction, perhaps, being felt - so ultimately the commitment one is making is to Source........And Source, in turn, is giving Aries a direction - a field in which it can explore to its heart's content
That's well put. I also feel the Aries/Virgo inconjunct allows one to feel something other than the self, or the self wishing to be of service........the combination goes beyond both archetypes.........so that the Source is recognized and felt..........and this connection with Source then brings about transcendence of all the distorted qualities of both.......and this is what actually powers the inconjunct.
QuoteDeva, in her book, talks about Aries anger as ultimately a force directed inwardly that allows one to break through barriers.
It takes commitment to work for the Source and follow its guidance that will pacify the Aries spirit or give it direction, and will keep Virgo busy with the correct work function. Within that relationship with Source, freedom is given to Aries to break new ground (and
a healthy kind of anger or energy can inspire that) which then becomes part of the work (and energy can be the fuel here too).....and all of this leads to exactly where the Soul is meant to go and the work it needs to do (Pisces).
QuoteAnd further, perhaps, one could recognize in the Aries anger the desire that lies beneath it - the desire, in the example above, to go deeply into something, and then use that Arien energy to make it happen...... (this is just an alternative way for me to look at/work with anger......)
That anger can point one in a new direction that will lead to other opportunities for the use of the inconjunct.
(Ellen, would you like to host the Cancer thread? :-*)
Quote from: Linda on Mar 23, 2011, 05:16 PM
Hi Ellen,
Quote from: Ellen on Mar 23, 2011, 10:15 AMOne thing that came up for me re: Virgo IN RELATION to Aries: it seems always to be argued that Virgo feels, incorrectly, that it is not yet ready.
Linda,
Thank you, always, for your thoughtful response.
Once Virgo feels ready, and done the necessary inner work (purpose of the Gibbous phase) of attainment of humility...and alignment with a Higher Will....then there's no hesitation in carrying out the correct work function.....fired and powered by Aries!
This makes sense and is very helpful for me to hear someone say. I have never experienced this perspective being acknowledged, but instead the encouragement of Virgo to just be willing to do something - to take a chance. If, for whatever reasons, the inner work (as you so clearly identify) has not been able to be done, then I feel that it is quite right and wise of Virgo to hold off. I would like to see this perspective and truth honored more in the discussions of Virgo, generally in the world. To me it would convey trust (Scorpio), which would be very helpful for Virgo, and thus facilitate that inward journey and thus, ultimately, the NATURALLY fired (Aries) takeoff in the world in terms of service.
It's also very important to remember that Aries is carrying out the desires of the Soul. If suddenly one is instinctively lead to follow a new direction, I would say that one should investigate, and allow oneself to be moved along (evolution). The Aries/Virgo inconjunct is actually quite a complementary aspect.
I actually agree with this. I was being a little harsh on Aries in my post. Indeed, I think the Aries propensity to hop from thing to thing can really facilitate Virgo insofar as it gives Virgo exposure to different things until the right thing is hit on - and then I think the journey inward can begin, once that is found......And that is when life TRULY begins! Thank you for making this point so clear.
QuoteIn thinking about Aries - and its tendency towards rashness and always onto the next new thing without ever really going deeply into anything - perhaps the Virgo hesitation could be understood as wisdom - a recognition that one can only truly be of service if one has taken the time to master something............
There is wisdom in both Aries and Virgo. Aries is following a directive from the Soul, while Virgo is correlating to necessary inner criticism or self-analysis...and the combination of the two leads to surrender and then to natural alignment with a Higher Will.
Agreed that there is wisdom in both. And, as I said above, I was being unfair to Aries. I was wanting to make the point, in response to what I have always felt about the tendency of people to want to push Virgo some, that Virgo hesitation might not be at all a fault of the sign, but rather may be an expression of wisdom that has not yet been fully understood because Virgo herself has not yet understood what is missing (until, with Aries' help, she stumbles upon it...)
QuoteAnd, in terms of 1st spiritual (Virgo), the desire to make such a commitment would come in response to a felt connection with Source and a sense of direction, perhaps, being felt - so ultimately the commitment one is making is to Source........And Source, in turn, is giving Aries a direction - a field in which it can explore to its heart's content
That's well put. I also feel the Aries/Virgo inconjunct allows one to feel something other than the self, or the self wishing to be of service........the combination goes beyond both archetypes.........so that the Source is recognized and felt..........and this connection with Source then brings about transcendence of all the distorted qualities of both.......and
Sorry....... my computer sometimes eats words!!! What I was wanting to say is that what you have written here is very insightful for me, especially the part about the Aries/Virgo inconjunct allowing the self to feel itself wishing to be of service...... very interesting.......
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QuoteDeva, in her book, talks about Aries anger as ultimately a force directed inwardly that allows one to break through barriers.
It takes commitment to work for the Source and follow its guidance that will pacify the Aries spirit or give it direction, and will keep Virgo busy with the correct work function. Within that relationship with Source, freedom is given to Aries to break new ground (and anger or energy can inspire that) which then becomes part of the work (and energy can be the fuel here too).....and all of this leads to exactly where the Soul is meant to go and the work it needs to do (Pisces).
QuoteAnd further, perhaps, one could recognize in the Aries anger the desire that lies beneath it - the desire, in the example above, to go deeply into something, and then use that Arien energy to make it happen...... (this is just an alternative way for me to look at/work with anger......)
That anger can point one in a new direction that will lead to other opportunities for the use of the inconjunct.
I appreciate the wisdom that comes from your experience. I have wrestled a lot with anger in my life and the further I go along the further I feel/experience that anger is not a path that works for me (but I appreciate and respect that it does for others...). I am not saying that I desire to suppress anger or to be in denial of it. But for me when I experience anger, I am aware, or have become aware, that in my case, the energy is damaging to my body - and my being, actually. So my habitual response to anger has come to be one of self-nurturance. So anger helps me, but I think in a different way than the one you have described here....Perhaps not, though. Perhaps for you, too, in it pointing you in a new direction, that awareness provides you with the ability to be self-nurturing........
(Ellen, would you like to host the Cancer thread? :-*)
Yes, Linda. I should be able to commit to that and I would appreciate the opportunity. I move at the end of the month but it doesn't look like we'll be getting to the Cancer thread before that......... (a bit devilish of you, eh?! ;D)
Quote from: Ellen on Mar 21, 2011, 11:05 PM
DARN!... It STILL feels to me that there is an intrinsic judgement here re: creation. I am assuming that to exhaust all separating desires is to be finished with incarnation/creation. Linda pointed out the Aries/Virgo inconjunct and what has arisen for me with that is the whole guilt complex associated with that archetype and the denigration of the body (and creation) associated with it through the Judeo-Christian connection. If the equation were: inhabiting-->exhausting-->inhabiting again at a new level...... I wouldn't feel that sense of judgement being made.... What I am hearing (and this is where I may be receiving incorrectly, ie, receiving something other than you and others are intending) is that ultimately the answer is exhaustion of all separating desires and remerging with the divine and that is the end of the process. To me that implies a judgement about creation. We have these desires but they are JUST for the purpose of getting back to the divine...(not about co-creating, to give an example of another possibility.) The other question that I think needs to be asked that might help shed some light is: what is the purpose of evolution? Aries, as being in a continuous state of becoming, is about evolution. Our desires propel us evolutionarily speaking...
Well, this may just go round and round so I understand if you would prefer to just let this question sit as is...... I am not SETTLED, but I feel that I have a much greater understanding of where the sticking point is for me, and perhaps that's the best that can be accomplished!
Best wishes,
Ellen
Quote from: Ellen on Mar 22, 2011, 08:30 AM
Yet it is important for me to be careful not to use that as a way of minimizing the validity of the cycle itself, of that culmination of rest as somehow suggesting that the cycle itself was in error...... That's the crux of it for me - how to reconcile both.........
Ellen,
besides the great dialogue happening on this thread, Dane Rudhyar's book
Rhythm of Wholeness supplies a beautifully formulated, spiritual answer to the above. Rudhyar, as you probably know, was a great influence on JWG as has been stated various times (one such place is the dedication in JWG's
Uranus book.
ROW was the culmination of Rudhyar's lifelong works (and yet is not "astrology") and within it is an answer to what you are asking that JWG maybe doesn't
particularly provide within the confines of EA. The reason it may not be implied in EA is not because it doesn't exist or that JWG wasn't aware of such concepts, but from my point of view is because it was more practical for the purposes of EA and for humanity at this time to stop with the hierarchy of the 3rd Stage Spiritual and the one final desire to merge with, or return to, the Source. EA is extremely relevant and beautiful especially in its capacities for evolving the minds and Souls of those within the Individuated Stages. ROW is more metaphysically conceived with the "Spiritual stages" of evolution in mind and at this point of evolution is mostly effective as an outline of the whole of being, within which something like EA can operate without such fears implied by an "ending" of evolution or "a minimizing of the validity of the cycle itself."
Having said such things, I must say that I don't necessarily think that JWG ever precisely stated that evolution
ends with a re-merging with the Divine, even if it is easy to be read in such a manner. My impression was that human form eventually arrives at one desire: to know its Source. The Divine, God/Godess, should not be thought of as a place or as an anthropomorphic being of absolute stillness, but more as a culmination of one extreme of an all-encompassing and perpetual cycle. A cycle implies two opposite yet complementary forces in operation as a whole. The Source, therefore, is present at all times of evolution
as the current relationship of the two forces. If that relationship stands at say 60/40 in the present phase of evolution - in Rudhyar's terms the
principle of Multiplicity being the 60 in this example (which in human form correlates to the desire to separate from Source) and the
principle of Unity at 40 (in human terms the desire to return to Source) - then the Source is present as said equation. It's as though we are all, as the current ratio or relationship of the two forces, culminating toward a unified concentration of Source, a sort of 1/99 ratio, which will then reverse toward a separating multiplication of that Source in a new great cycle due to an inevitable (because there are two forces or aspects of being) "failed" 1 percent.
The 60/40 example of a constantly evolving and revolving ratio would also not mean that the desire for separation was a "stronger" force at that time, the strength is relative to which force is ascending.
warmly and humbly,
taf
Quote from: Taf on Mar 23, 2011, 07:08 PM
Quote from: Ellen on Mar 21, 2011, 11:05 PM
DARN!... It STILL feels to me that there is an intrinsic judgement here re: creation. I am assuming that to exhaust all separating desires is to be finished with incarnation/creation. Linda pointed out the Aries/Virgo inconjunct and what has arisen for me with that is the whole guilt complex associated with that archetype and the denigration of the body (and creation) associated with it through the Judeo-Christian connection. If the equation were: inhabiting-->exhausting-->inhabiting again at a new level...... I wouldn't feel that sense of judgement being made.... What I am hearing (and this is where I may be receiving incorrectly, ie, receiving something other than you and others are intending) is that ultimately the answer is exhaustion of all separating desires and remerging with the divine and that is the end of the process. To me that implies a judgement about creation. We have these desires but they are JUST for the purpose of getting back to the divine...(not about co-creating, to give an example of another possibility.) The other question that I think needs to be asked that might help shed some light is: what is the purpose of evolution? Aries, as being in a continuous state of becoming, is about evolution. Our desires propel us evolutionarily speaking...
Well, this may just go round and round so I understand if you would prefer to just let this question sit as is...... I am not SETTLED, but I feel that I have a much greater understanding of where the sticking point is for me, and perhaps that's the best that can be accomplished!
Best wishes,
Ellen
Quote from: Ellen on Mar 22, 2011, 08:30 AM
Yet it is important for me to be careful not to use that as a way of minimizing the validity of the cycle itself, of that culmination of rest as somehow suggesting that the cycle itself was in error...... That's the crux of it for me - how to reconcile both.........
Ellen,
besides the great dialogue happening on this thread, Dane Rudhyar's book Rhythm of Wholeness supplies a beautifully formulated, spiritual answer to the above. Rudhyar, as you probably know, was a great influence on JWG as has been stated various times (one such place is the dedication in JWG's Uranus book.
ROW was the culmination of Rudhyar's lifelong works (and yet is not "astrology") and within it is an answer to what you are asking that JWG maybe doesn't particularly provide within the confines of EA. The reason it may not be implied in EA is not because it doesn't exist or that JWG wasn't aware of such concepts, but from my point of view is because it was more practical for the purposes of EA and for humanity at this time to stop with the hierarchy of the 3rd Stage Spiritual and the one final desire to merge with, or return to, the Source. EA is extremely relevant and beautiful especially in its capacities for evolving the minds and Souls of those within the Individuated Stages. ROW is more metaphysically conceived with the "Spiritual stages" of evolution in mind and at this point of evolution is mostly effective as an outline of the whole of being, within which something like EA can operate without such fears implied by an "ending" of evolution or "a minimizing of the validity of the cycle itself."
Having said such things, I must say that I don't necessarily think that JWG ever precisely stated that evolution ends with a re-merging with the Divine, even if it is easy to be read in such a manner. My impression was that human form eventually arrives at one desire: to know its Source. The Divine, God/Godess, should not be thought of as a place or as an anthropomorphic being of absolute stillness, but more as a culmination of one extreme of an all-encompassing and perpetual cycle. A cycle implies two opposite yet complementary forces in operation as a whole. The Source, therefore, is present at all times of evolution as the current relationship of the two forces. If that relationship stands at say 60/40 in the present phase of evolution - in Rudhyar's terms the principle of Multiplicity being the 60 in this example (which in human form correlates to the desire to separate from Source) and the principle of Unity at 40 (in human terms the desire to return to Source) - then the Source is present as said equation. It's as though we are all, as the current ratio or relationship of the two forces, culminating toward a unified concentration of Source, a sort of 1/99 ratio, which will then reverse toward a separating multiplication of that Source in a new great cycle due to an inevitable (because there are two forces or aspects of being) "failed" 1 percent.
warmly and humbly,
taf
Taf,
Thank you so much. This helps me a ton! Yes, I am familiar with Dane Rudhyar but am not sure I realized how much of an influence he was on JWG. I have yet to get a copy of the Uranus book but have been feeling more and more lately that I would really like to find a copy....... Also, I am aware of and have read a number of Rudhyar books but was not aware of Rhythm of Wholeness. From what you have written here, it looks to hold many answers for me with regard to this discussion in particular and it is extremely helpful for me to hear you talk of it in the context of EA (ie, that, in a sense, EA is simply focuses on a different slice of the perspective...THAT is amazingly helpful!)
It is also very helpful for me to hear you say that you do not believe JWG ever explicitly said evolution ends with a merging with the Divine. Helpful because I feel that a lot of what I have been grappling with here (and on this MB generally) is/are my own projections into those very holes of "not explicitly stated". I appreciate yours and everyone's willingness to have and allow these discussions and for the tremendous gentleness and kindness that is offered.
With gratitude,
Ellen
Ellen said: I appreciate the wisdom that comes from your experience. I have wrestled a lot with anger in my life and the further I go along the further I feel/experience that anger is not a path that works for me (but I appreciate and respect that it does for others...). I am not saying that I desire to suppress anger or to be in denial of it. But for me when I experience anger, I am aware, or have become aware, that in my case, the energy is damaging to my body - and my being, actually. So my habitual response to anger has come to be one of self-nurturance. So anger helps me, but I think in a different way than the one you have described here....Perhaps not, though. Perhaps for you, too, in it pointing you in a new direction, that awareness provides you with the ability to be self-nurturing........
Hi Ellen,
I certainly was not saying that anger is a path to be followed. Mine is a path of peace and equanimity above all else nurtured by Cancer energies.
Please see the "Transits" thread where I and others have spoken about the constructive use of anger.
Deva's Quote: It is important to understand that anger can be projected into external situations that are perceived as the cause of the limitations instead of understanding that the increasing desire to change existing life circumstances is a reflection of the desire to create forward momentum in evolutionary growth, and to use anger in a constructive way to create the necessary changes that must be made at this time.
I was talking about the energy of initiation, spirit, fire, instinct, spontaneity, unplanned action, when one's interest is captured, and a fresh new direction beckons.............. I had meant a healthy kind of anger that motivates one to break through limitations.
Anyway, now that the discussion has moved to anger......
"Deva, in her book, talks about Aries anger as ultimately a force directed inwardly that allows one to break through barriers."
How does one break through these barriers? Felt anger is to be processed. We can only come back to what we're feeling in our own bodies. All the information is contained within us. It's not going to be necessarily resolved out there, or by pointing the finger out there. It's going to be resolved with us first. The conscious mind is not part of this - we can't solve problems through the mind - because it's limited. What needs to heal is the unconscious patterns through processing emotions and releasing what is stored in the body. It's very important to actually clear what is stored in the body.
Hi Linda,
So very sorry to have conveyed the impression that I saw you as saying you felt anger was a legitimate path to be followed for you. I fully appreciate you as someone who follows the path of peace and equanimity - it is evident in your every post and in your very being... Please know that that wasn't my intention to communicate that! I have struggled for many years with the whole notion of constructive use of anger and that is what I was responding to - sort of thinking out loud in response to your post.... In my own life it has been very easy for me to get caught up in anger and rage and, having had that experience, it (anger/rage) has been something I have spent a lot of time thinking about and trying to find healthy ways of expression in response. I see that other people are able to experience anger and respond with tremendous constructiveness. Look at Gandhi. Look at the suffragists. Look at Martin Luther King, Jr. and Nelson Mandela. Perhaps the comparison can be made to alcohol. Some people can drink it in small amounts and enjoy benefit. Others can't. If they drink any, they always end up drinking to excess and ruining their lives. So, if they are fortunate, they learn that they can't drink at all. For me, anger/rage is like that...... But I understand that anger is something that everyone feels and that each person finds their own healthy ways to respond to/work with it. I sincerely hope that this makes sense.
Peace and well wishes, always,
Ellen
PS When you talk about clearing what is stored in your body, is this what you mean by anger sometimes being the very thing that points the way to a new direction?
(I am needing to study for a certification exam I am taking on Friday. So if I don't respond for a day or 2, that is why, but I am hoping to be able to spend some time here..... Just been playing hookie a little too long from this other thing needing my attention!)
Quote from: Linda on Mar 23, 2011, 08:01 PM
Ellen said: I appreciate the wisdom that comes from your experience. I have wrestled a lot with anger in my life and the further I go along the further I feel/experience that anger is not a path that works for me (but I appreciate and respect that it does for others...). I am not saying that I desire to suppress anger or to be in denial of it. But for me when I experience anger, I am aware, or have become aware, that in my case, the energy is damaging to my body - and my being, actually. So my habitual response to anger has come to be one of self-nurturance. So anger helps me, but I think in a different way than the one you have described here....Perhaps not, though. Perhaps for you, too, in it pointing you in a new direction, that awareness provides you with the ability to be self-nurturing........
Hi Ellen,
I certainly was not saying that anger is a path to be followed. Mine is a path of peace and equanimity above all else nurtured by Cancer energies.
Please see the "Transits" thread where I and others have spoken about the constructive use of anger.
Deva's Quote: It is important to understand that anger can be projected into external situations that are perceived as the cause of the limitations instead of understanding that the increasing desire to change existing life circumstances is a reflection of the desire to create forward momentum in evolutionary growth, and to use anger in a constructive way to create the necessary changes that must be made at this time.
I was talking about the energy of initiation, spirit, fire, instinct, spontaneity, unplanned action, when one's interest is captured, and a fresh new direction beckons.............. I had meant a healthy kind of anger that motivates one to break through limitations.
I will spend some time reading the transits thread this weekend after my exam. I think I am hung up on the word "anger". To me, I would not think to assign the word "anger" to what you are describing here. Certainly this is Aries, though.... I'm sure we will find our way to a common understanding in time..............
Love,
Ellen
Anyway, now that the discussion has moved to anger......
"Deva, in her book, talks about Aries anger as ultimately a force directed inwardly that allows one to break through barriers."
How does one break through these barriers? Felt anger is to be processed. We can only come back to what we're feeling in our own bodies. All the information is contained within us. It's not going to be necessarily resolved out there, or by pointing the finger out there. It's going to be resolved with us first. The conscious mind is not part of this - we can't solve problems through the mind - because it's limited. What needs to heal is the unconscious patterns through processing emotions and releasing what is stored in the body. It's very important to actually clear what is stored in the body.
Oh, I see what I said! "Anger is not a path that works for me........"
I was thinking of that in the sense of what I read Deva saying - that anger can be a force that is directed inwardly to clear blocks......." Does this help to clarify? Let me know!
Quote from: Ellen on Mar 23, 2011, 08:48 PMWhen you talk about clearing what is stored in the body, is this what you mean by anger sometimes being the very thing that points the way to a new direction?
No, that's not what I meant. What I meant was that everyone needs to find their own personal way of releasing/dealing with their own personal anger when it arises. This may or may not lead to a new direction.
Regarding Mars in the context of a "new direction," good examples of the constructive use of anger can be found in the Transits thread where several members have spoken of personal experiences where anger symbolized a completely new direction for them. And of course transiting Mars can reveal and trigger the dynamics for evolutionary change.
Love, Peace & Equanimity
Linda :-*
Quote from: Linda on Mar 23, 2011, 09:06 PM
Quote from: Ellen on Mar 23, 2011, 08:48 PMWhen you talk about clearing what is stored in the body, is this what you mean by anger sometimes being the very thing that points the way to a new direction?
No, that's not what I meant. What I meant was that everyone needs to find their own personal way of releasing/dealing with their own personal anger when it arises. This may or may not lead to a new direction.
Regarding Mars in the context of a "new direction," good examples of the constructive use of anger can be found in the Transits thread where several members have spoken of personal experiences where anger symbolized a completely new direction for them. And of course transiting Mars can reveal and trigger the dynamics for evolutionary change.
Love, Peace & Equanimity
Linda :-*
THANKS, LINDA!
Linda said: I was talking about the energy of initiation, spirit, fire, instinct, spontaneity, unplanned action, when one's interest is captured, and a fresh new direction beckons.............. I had meant a healthy kind of anger that motivates one to break through limitations.
Ellen said: I will spend some time reading the transits thread this weekend after my exam. I think I am hung up on the word "anger". To me, I would not think to assign the word "anger" to what you are describing here. Certainly this is Aries, though.... I'm sure we will find our way to a common understanding in time..............
Ellen,
Here's exactly what I meant about a "healthy kind of anger".......
When one is angry with oneself - things are not going right - one is struggling - the mind is not completely balanced - and one may think "Oh damn!"
It's similar to water, and to bubbles when it is simmering. When it starts to boil you get a miniature explosion. It's healthy to have that. When we are brewing on things, similarly, the pressure builds up......and it's the release of that pressure that I'm talking about.
Anger is a natural force - a reaction takes place - something which is perfectly healthy. It's a natural phenomena that is inbuilt into all creation, the earth, the whole thing.
Love, Peace & Equanimity,
Linda ;)
Quote from: Linda on Mar 23, 2011, 09:44 PM
Linda said: I was talking about the energy of initiation, spirit, fire, instinct, spontaneity, unplanned action, when one's interest is captured, and a fresh new direction beckons.............. I had meant a healthy kind of anger that motivates one to break through limitations.
Ellen said: I will spend some time reading the transits thread this weekend after my exam. I think I am hung up on the word "anger". To me, I would not think to assign the word "anger" to what you are describing here. Certainly this is Aries, though.... I'm sure we will find our way to a common understanding in time..............
Ellen,
Here's exactly what I meant about a "healthy kind of anger".......
When one is angry with oneself - things are not going right - one is struggling - the mind is not completely balanced - and one may think "Oh damn!"
It's similar to water, and to bubbles when it is simmering. When it starts to boil you get a miniature explosion. It's healthy to have that. When we are brewing on things, similarly, the pressure builds up......and it's the release of that pressure that I'm talking about.
Anger is a natural force - a reaction takes place - something which is perfectly healthy. It's a natural phenomena that is inbuilt into all creation, the earth, the whole thing.
Love, Peace & Equanimity,
Linda ;)
Aaaah! I completely understand. I would never have thought of anger in that way. I have LEARNED something! Thank you!
Love,
Ellen
Quote from: Ellen on Mar 21, 2011, 11:05 PM
DARN!... It STILL feels to me that there is an intrinsic judgement here re: creation. I am assuming that to exhaust all separating desires is to be finished with incarnation/creation. Linda pointed out the Aries/Virgo inconjunct and what has arisen for me with that is the whole guilt complex associated with that archetype and the denigration of the body (and creation) associated with it through the Judeo-Christian connection. If the equation were: inhabiting-->exhausting-->inhabiting again at a new level...... I wouldn't feel that sense of judgement being made.... What I am hearing (and this is where I may be receiving incorrectly, ie, receiving something other than you and others are intending) is that ultimately the answer is exhaustion of all separating desires and remerging with the divine and that is the end of the process. To me that implies a judgement about creation. We have these desires but they are JUST for the purpose of getting back to the divine...(not about co-creating, to give an example of another possibility.) The other question that I think needs to be asked that might help shed some light is: what is the purpose of evolution? Aries, as being in a continuous state of becoming, is about evolution. Our desires propel us evolutionarily speaking...
Well, this may just go round and round so I understand if you would prefer to just let this question sit as is...... I am not SETTLED, but I feel that I have a much greater understanding of where the sticking point is for me, and perhaps that's the best that can be accomplished!
Best wishes,
Ellen
Hi Ellen and all,
I don't believe their is any difference between co-creating and union with the divine. They are one in the same. And I don't believe there is an end to 'exhausting all separating desires'. If Aries is the first stage of evolution, its need to separate from source (mother, God) is its natural state. It's firey impulse, just begins anew the circle of un-ending evolution. Virgo is not naturally guilt-ridden, that is a patriarchal conditioning, and thus is perceived as judgment.
Evolution is a continuous process, even when all souls have joined in union, there still will be evolution and creation. Creation just is. A thought form that manifests into reality. Granted the different stages of evolution assist a soul in union with the divine, and thus so does the need for separation. Like a baby-child learning that hot water can burn, the process of exploring (separating) spurs the soul further towards union with self and ultimately higher-self.
Virgo and guilt in relation to Aries. I believe this expresses as Aries being unaware of the intrinsic workings, details, of the bodymind, on its own that is. Meaning, it could really care a less. It is not interested in getting bogged down with the details. Aries see its goal and is geared to get it, or accomplish it, and could care a less about the nature of its mind (Mercury) or its soul (Pluto). I don't know many Aries that want to sit around and discuss these things, unless there are other forces in the chart directing them internally. They want to experience it, live it.
Quote from: Ellen on Mar 22, 2011, 08:30 AM
Yet it is important for me to be careful not to use that as a way of minimizing the validity of the cycle itself, of that culmination of rest as somehow suggesting that the cycle itself was in error...... That's the crux of it for me - how to reconcile both.........
Hi Ellen,
I just finished reading page two, thus I'm coming in late, so I hope its okay that I am following your questions so closely here. I am so honored and fascinated to be on this forum and learn so much from everyone's knowledge and inquiries.
I think your quote above completely addresses the Aries Pisces (Virgo) theme of what is (life everyday) and the culmination of it, without any need for judgment or guilt. Perhaps reflection (Virgo mind) is another way of seeing the Virgo component in relation to Aries Pisces.
Wow, finally caught up on the posts here. I'm just so grateful for all of this amazing wisdom.
Upasika, I appreciate your explanation here
QuoteWhen a soul twigs onto the fact that every action gives rise to a reaction then the lightbulb is starting to light up. So it will progressively choose positive actions as these tend to give rise to positive reactions, and that feels better. However as JWG says, it can be a bit hard to track this over lifetimes and so positive actions don't always seem to result in positive reactions. Additionally conscious positive people attract negativity out of less conscious (and also possibly more negative) people, simply because the very presence of a conscious person threatens the security of a less conscious person. As Steve has said, on the micro level at least, this stuff isn't necesarily linear. But the point remains which is each soul has a relationship with life, and through extension of that to the Source, it's just a matter of how conscious they are of it. So if there is a goal to me it would have to be to become more conscious, because otherwise chasing the same separating desires endlessly means no end to suffering.
Ellen, you said to Linda:
QuoteAnd, with an Aries/Virgo inconjunct as part of both skipped steps and hiding signatures, I am DEFINITELY AWARE of the work you do - the commitment to it that allows genuine depth to come forth! (And, no, I am not jealous - just inspired!! And I WILL find my own way there, too!! lolol!)
YOU HAVE FOUND YOU WAY THERE misses Aries-Virgo inconjunct! You just can't see it! Also in addition what you referred to, if you haven't yet made the connection, just having a Virgo rising contains within it the natural Aries Virgo inconjunct archetype within itself.
Thank you for sharing that info about the Hicks material and co-creation. I still would like to hear more about your current thoughts as I feel something really valuable in this discussion. For example, you have said that the notion of burning desires to return to God seems like a judgement. What is the alternative point of view, how would you describe it intuitively? I can see how Taf's post below is clarifying for you.
QuoteMy impression was that human form eventually arrives at one desire: to know its Source. The Divine, God/Godess, should not be thought of as a place or as an anthropomorphic being of absolute stillness, but more as a culmination of one extreme of an all-encompassing and perpetual cycle. A cycle implies two opposite yet complementary forces in operation as a whole. The Source, therefore, is present at all times of evolution as the current relationship of the two forces. If that relationship stands at say 60/40 in the present phase of evolution - in Rudhyar's terms the principle of Multiplicity being the 60 in this example (which in human form correlates to the desire to separate from Source) and the principle of Unity at 40 (in human terms the desire to return to Source) - then the Source is present as said equation. It's as though we are all, as the current ratio or relationship of the two forces, culminating toward a unified concentration of Source, a sort of 1/99 ratio, which will then reverse toward a separating multiplication of that Source in a new great cycle due to an inevitable (because there are two forces or aspects of being) "failed" 1 percent.
Taf, there is so much in that! These words open me up to a new depth. Though I don't understand/grasp entirely the notion of the failed 1%. Will you share more about this especially as it relates to the original intention of this discussion: the Aries separation anxiety?
Two feeling come up for me as I reflect on your post:
1. Wow, god is the process. And,
2. What's the point?
Hi all,
An interesting analogy just showed up for me. Sometimes when I eat something and I finish, I crave more. So I'll take more. However it often occurs to me that I am just thirsty. Nevertheless, because I am already emotionally invested in fulfilling myself with another bite, I will continue to pursue that.
Eventually, I do drink water, at which point I say to myself "this is what I wanted all along"!
What's the result of all of this? I learn from the karma that this repetitive cycle creates and adjust my life accordingly to gradually live more in balance. I feel this is the perpetual cycle of polarities that Taf spoke of. And yet there is the emptiness within which polarity occurs. This is the state where there is neither food nor water, inhale nor exhale; no dualities of any kind. there is just ALL.
Hi Wendy, Ari, All,
Thank you for your responses! And Wendy, yes, TOTALLY ok! I need to study all day today and tomorrow morning for a certification exam I will be taking tomorrow afternoon. I will be back Friday or Saturday to read posts thoroughly and respond.
Best wishes,
Ellen
Quote from: ari moshe on Mar 24, 2011, 01:52 AM
Though I don't understand/grasp entirely the notion of the failed 1%. Will you share more about this especially as it relates to the original intention of this discussion: the Aries separation anxiety?
Two feeling come up for me as I reflect on your post:
1. Wow, god is the process. And,
2. What's the point?
Hi Ari,
I suppose that the "failed" 1%, or the "total failures", of any great cycle of inistence/existence would correlate in EA terms to contracts with Evil. However, since God is ALL, or BOTH forces in perpetual movement, ultimately it is these contracts that provoke a new cycle at the final reversal. Compassionate emanation from the 99% Unity can not FORGET the other 1% and thus is "released" once again to bring compassion to the tiny amount of "almost" total separations of itself that could not become unified. And I believe that this is where specific contracts with Evil, so to speak, are broken by the compassion of the almost unified or concentrated Source, or the "Omega Point" of Tielhard de Chardin. Of course, this point of evolution would be far beyond human form.
Maybe somewhere in here would be that original anxiety of separation.
But a reading of the Rudhyar book would give you far more insights when connected to EA than I can provide. As far as I can tell it is very similar to the Lila of Hinduism combined with esoteric philosophy.
The ALL without dualities is more an emanation of the whole, the cycle, if I'm thinking clearly. If an absolute existed without dualities then there would be no ex-istence, it would be total in-istence, for if there were an absolute, and then a duality, they would be disconnected like the patriarchal total split between Spirit and Matter. Absolute, by definition, means pure, complete, not mixed. The fact of creation implies, quite possibly, a duality of God. But regardless, what we're looking at is a total affirmation of being, which includes what has been considered by many religions/philosophies as non-being. It is all being. Just different ratios.
I didn't mean to get off track here. Just wanted to offer a possible answer to Ellen's questions.
you carry on my brother,
taf
Quote from: Wendy on Mar 24, 2011, 01:26 AM
Quote from: Ellen on Mar 21, 2011, 11:05 PM
DARN!... It STILL feels to me that there is an intrinsic judgement here re: creation. I am assuming that to exhaust all separating desires is to be finished with incarnation/creation. Linda pointed out the Aries/Virgo inconjunct and what has arisen for me with that is the whole guilt complex associated with that archetype and the denigration of the body (and creation) associated with it through the Judeo-Christian connection. If the equation were: inhabiting-->exhausting-->inhabiting again at a new level...... I wouldn't feel that sense of judgement being made.... What I am hearing (and this is where I may be receiving incorrectly, ie, receiving something other than you and others are intending) is that ultimately the answer is exhaustion of all separating desires and remerging with the divine and that is the end of the process. To me that implies a judgement about creation. We have these desires but they are JUST for the purpose of getting back to the divine...(not about co-creating, to give an example of another possibility.) The other question that I think needs to be asked that might help shed some light is: what is the purpose of evolution? Aries, as being in a continuous state of becoming, is about evolution. Our desires propel us evolutionarily speaking...
Well, this may just go round and round so I understand if you would prefer to just let this question sit as is...... I am not SETTLED, but I feel that I have a much greater understanding of where the sticking point is for me, and perhaps that's the best that can be accomplished!
Best wishes,
Ellen
Hi Ellen and all,
I don't believe their is any difference between co-creating and union with the divine. They are one in the same. And I don't believe there is an end to 'exhausting all separating desires'. If Aries is the first stage of evolution, its need to separate from source (mother, God) is its natural state. It's firey impulse, just begins anew the circle of un-ending evolution. Virgo is not naturally guilt-ridden, that is a patriarchal conditioning, and thus is perceived as judgment.
Hi Wendy,
Wonderful response and it is refreshing to hear you feeling/being so clear on this within yourself. Thanks to this discussion, and definitely in part because of your articulation here, I am pretty much there myself. One question I have for you is how would you explain or define the "original anxiety" aspect of the archetype.. If separation is the natural state of Aries, how do you understand the anxiety part of that equation?
Evolution is a continuous process, even when all souls have joined in union, there still will be evolution and creation. Creation just is. A thought form that manifests into reality. Granted the different stages of evolution assist a soul in union with the divine, and thus so does the need for separation.
Can you explain this sentence a little more? I don't feel I understand what you are wanting to communicate. I hear you equating the different stages of evolution and the need for separation in some way but I don't understand it........
Like a baby-child learning that hot water can burn, the process of exploring (separating) spurs the soul further towards union with self
Because s/he understands her/himself better?
and ultimately higher-self.
Virgo and guilt in relation to Aries. I believe this expresses as Aries being unaware of the intrinsic workings, details, of the bodymind, on its own that is.
Can you explain more about how the guilt plays into that - how you understand that connection between the 2 - guilt and Aries unawareness? Does the guilt--> Aries unaware? Or does Virgo somehow experience guilt in response to Aries' propensities...? Perhaps Aries' lack of interest in what is so fundamental to Virgo - the workings of the mind - triggers Virgo insecurity which triggers guilt? Might that be what you are meaning?
Meaning, it could really care a less. It is not interested in getting bogged down with the details. Aries see its goal and is geared to get it, or accomplish it, and could care a less about the nature of its mind (Mercury) or its soul (Pluto). I don't know many Aries that want to sit around and discuss these things, unless there are other forces in the chart directing them internally. They want to experience it, live it.
Quote from: Wendy on Mar 24, 2011, 01:42 AM
Quote from: Ellen on Mar 22, 2011, 08:30 AM
Yet it is important for me to be careful not to use that as a way of minimizing the validity of the cycle itself, of that culmination of rest as somehow suggesting that the cycle itself was in error...... That's the crux of it for me - how to reconcile both.........
Hi Ellen,
I just finished reading page two, thus I'm coming in late, so I hope its okay that I am following your questions so closely here. I am so honored and fascinated to be on this forum and learn so much from everyone's knowledge and inquiries.
Same here, Wendy. And I so enjoy your presence and the presence of all the others here!
I think your quote above completely addresses the Aries Pisces (Virgo) theme of what is (life everyday) and the culmination of it, without any need for judgment or guilt. Perhaps reflection (Virgo mind) is another way of seeing the Virgo component in relation to Aries Pisces.
Wonderful... I really like this!
Quote from: ari moshe on Mar 24, 2011, 01:52 AM
Wow, finally caught up on the posts here. I'm just so grateful for all of this amazing wisdom.
Upasika, I appreciate your explanation here
QuoteWhen a soul twigs onto the fact that every action gives rise to a reaction then the lightbulb is starting to light up. So it will progressively choose positive actions as these tend to give rise to positive reactions, and that feels better. However as JWG says, it can be a bit hard to track this over lifetimes and so positive actions don't always seem to result in positive reactions. Additionally conscious positive people attract negativity out of less conscious (and also possibly more negative) people, simply because the very presence of a conscious person threatens the security of a less conscious person. As Steve has said, on the micro level at least, this stuff isn't necesarily linear. But the point remains which is each soul has a relationship with life, and through extension of that to the Source, it's just a matter of how conscious they are of it. So if there is a goal to me it would have to be to become more conscious, because otherwise chasing the same separating desires endlessly means no end to suffering.
Ellen, you said to Linda:
QuoteAnd, with an Aries/Virgo inconjunct as part of both skipped steps and hiding signatures, I am DEFINITELY AWARE of the work you do - the commitment to it that allows genuine depth to come forth! (And, no, I am not jealous - just inspired!! And I WILL find my own way there, too!! lolol!)
YOU HAVE FOUND YOU WAY THERE misses Aries-Virgo inconjunct! You just can't see it! Also in addition what you referred to, if you haven't yet made the connection, just having a Virgo rising contains within it the natural Aries Virgo inconjunct archetype within itself.
Thank you so much, Ari. But, no, not quite. I am GETTING there, and I have never felt that before, so that is progress. For me, I will know I am there when I am living my work in the world - supporting myself by that work, growing spiritually from that work, and contributing through it. And that is a wonderful thing to know and understand...
Thank you for sharing that info about the Hicks material and co-creation. I still would like to hear more about your current thoughts as I feel something really valuable in this discussion. For example, you have said that the notion of burning desires to return to God seems like a judgement. What is the alternative point of view, how would you describe it intuitively? I can see how Taf's post below is clarifying for you.
I want to think about this some more and get back to you. My brain's a little fried right now after a week of studying somewhat uninteresting and tedious material..... I should be able to get back to you tomorrow.
QuoteMy impression was that human form eventually arrives at one desire: to know its Source. The Divine, God/Godess, should not be thought of as a place or as an anthropomorphic being of absolute stillness, but more as a culmination of one extreme of an all-encompassing and perpetual cycle. A cycle implies two opposite yet complementary forces in operation as a whole. The Source, therefore, is present at all times of evolution as the current relationship of the two forces. If that relationship stands at say 60/40 in the present phase of evolution - in Rudhyar's terms the principle of Multiplicity being the 60 in this example (which in human form correlates to the desire to separate from Source) and the principle of Unity at 40 (in human terms the desire to return to Source) - then the Source is present as said equation. It's as though we are all, as the current ratio or relationship of the two forces, culminating toward a unified concentration of Source, a sort of 1/99 ratio, which will then reverse toward a separating multiplication of that Source in a new great cycle due to an inevitable (because there are two forces or aspects of being) "failed" 1 percent.
Taf, there is so much in that! These words open me up to a new depth. Though I don't understand/grasp entirely the notion of the failed 1%. Will you share more about this especially as it relates to the original intention of this discussion: the Aries separation anxiety?
Two feeling come up for me as I reflect on your post:
1. Wow, god is the process. And,
2. What's the point?
Quote from: Taf on Mar 24, 2011, 12:51 PM
Quote from: ari moshe on Mar 24, 2011, 01:52 AM
Though I don't understand/grasp entirely the notion of the failed 1%. Will you share more about this especially as it relates to the original intention of this discussion: the Aries separation anxiety?
Two feeling come up for me as I reflect on your post:
1. Wow, god is the process. And,
2. What's the point?
Hi Ari,
I suppose that the "failed" 1%, or the "total failures", of any great cycle of inistence/existence would correlate in EA terms to contracts with Evil. However, since God is ALL, or BOTH forces in perpetual movement, ultimately it is these contracts that provoke a new cycle at the final reversal. Compassionate emanation from the 99% Unity can not FORGET the other 1% and thus is "released" once again to bring compassion to the tiny amount of "almost" total separations of itself that could not become unified. And I believe that this is where specific contracts with Evil, so to speak, are broken by the compassion of the almost unified or concentrated Source, or the "Omega Point" of Tielhard de Chardin. Of course, this point of evolution would be far beyond human form.
Maybe somewhere in here would be that original anxiety of separation.
But a reading of the Rudhyar book would give you far more insights when connected to EA than I can provide. As far as I can tell it is very similar to the Lila of Hinduism combined with esoteric philosophy.
The ALL without dualities is more an emanation of the whole, the cycle, if I'm thinking clearly. If an absolute existed without dualities then there would be no ex-istence, it would be total in-istence, for if there were an absolute, and then a duality, they would be disconnected like the patriarchal total split between Spirit and Matter. Absolute, by definition, means pure, complete, not mixed. The fact of creation implies, quite possibly, a duality of God. But regardless, what we're looking at is a total affirmation of being, which includes what has been considered by many religions/philosophies as non-being. It is all being. Just different ratios.
I didn't mean to get off track here. Just wanted to offer a possible answer to Ellen's questions.
Thank you, Taf. Some helpful things to think about........I truly appreciate your deep thoughts on this and your taking the time to share them...
you carry on my brother,
taf
Hi all,
I was thinking a bit more about the Aries Virgo inconjunct as it relates to guilt. Where does guilt come from? How is it possible to feel guilt in the first place?
It comes from the fundamental mistake that God is judging us, that we have sinned, or done wrong from the point of view of the absolute. This provides perspective about the anxiety of Aries. A soul is, necessarily so, doing its own thing, and in so doing disrupting the balance of things (Aries). Yet inwardly, in this day and age, the soul will sense "I'm doing something wrong". This leads to an inner crisis whereby the soul has to find its own path, and yet in so doing perceives that path finding as an act of actual separation. "To be me, I have to abandon God." This is not actually true, only seemingly true.
Alright gang! So at this point, lets look at some charts. I'm going to post a chart with Strong Aries mojo, and we'll explore all the different facets of this archetype through this chart. I chose this chart because of the emphasized square between the cardinal archetypes. This will exemplify many of the principals we have been discussing.
(http://i417.photobucket.com/albums/pp255/arimoshe/Femaletransitionto1ststagespiritual-1.jpg)
So to get started, where has this soul come from in the past? What kind of inner confrontations has this soul experienced? What is the nature and reason for the skipped steps, and how can it be resolved?
Basic background - middle class upbringing. Attended liberal college and focused mostly on philospphy classes. She's been a caretaker for a number of years, taking care of an elderly woman with whom she shared a home with. She's a clown, and either attended or has been inspired deeply by patch adams. she'l be going to school very soon in Florida to refine her clowning skills and get more training. In particular she'll be attending a laughter yoga teacher training program. She intends to bring that back to her community and to various local organizations such as nursing homes, healing clinics, senior centers, yoga studios, churches, colleges etc.
I think she's likely in the very beginning of the spiritual state.
Quote from: ari moshe on Mar 26, 2011, 01:32 PM
Hi all,
I was thinking a bit more about the Aries Virgo inconjunct as it relates to guilt. Where does guilt come from? How is it possible to feel guilt in the first place?
It comes from the fundamental mistake that God is judging us, that we have sinned, or done wrong from the point of view of the absolute. This provides perspective about the anxiety of Aries. A soul is, necessarily so, doing its own thing, and in so doing disrupting the balance of things (Aries). Yet inwardly, in this day and age, the soul will sense "I'm doing something wrong". This leads to an inner crisis whereby the soul has to find its own path, and yet in so doing perceives that path finding as an act of actual separation. "To be me, I have to abandon God." This is not actually true, only seemingly true.
BRILLIANT, Ari! This really unlocks it for me! Thank you!
Love,
Ellen
Quote from: ari moshe on Mar 24, 2011, 01:52 AM
Wow, finally caught up on the posts here. I'm just so grateful for all of this amazing wisdom.
Upasika, I appreciate your explanation here
QuoteWhen a soul twigs onto the fact that every action gives rise to a reaction then the lightbulb is starting to light up. So it will progressively choose positive actions as these tend to give rise to positive reactions, and that feels better. However as JWG says, it can be a bit hard to track this over lifetimes and so positive actions don't always seem to result in positive reactions. Additionally conscious positive people attract negativity out of less conscious (and also possibly more negative) people, simply because the very presence of a conscious person threatens the security of a less conscious person. As Steve has said, on the micro level at least, this stuff isn't necesarily linear. But the point remains which is each soul has a relationship with life, and through extension of that to the Source, it's just a matter of how conscious they are of it. So if there is a goal to me it would have to be to become more conscious, because otherwise chasing the same separating desires endlessly means no end to suffering.
Ellen, you said to Linda:
QuoteAnd, with an Aries/Virgo inconjunct as part of both skipped steps and hiding signatures, I am DEFINITELY AWARE of the work you do - the commitment to it that allows genuine depth to come forth! (And, no, I am not jealous - just inspired!! And I WILL find my own way there, too!! lolol!)
YOU HAVE FOUND YOU WAY THERE misses Aries-Virgo inconjunct! You just can't see it! Also in addition what you referred to, if you haven't yet made the connection, just having a Virgo rising contains within it the natural Aries Virgo inconjunct archetype within itself.
Thank you for sharing that info about the Hicks material and co-creation. I still would like to hear more about your current thoughts as I feel something really valuable in this discussion. For example, you have said that the notion of burning desires to return to God seems like a judgement. What is the alternative point of view, how would you describe it intuitively? I can see how Taf's post below is clarifying for you.
Hi Ari,
I'm not sure I CAN elaborate on it more as the question arises more from instinct than conscious knowing. I feel that with the Hicks material I have hit upon something that shows an entirely different way, one that fundamentally contradicts the way that I have always understood what people have been saying about creation. In terms of burning desires to return to God seeming like a judgement, it is because I have always understood that statement to mean that ultimately, we are here to rid ourselves of these bodies - that somehow bodies (creation) are defiled in some way and our task is to transcend them. Wendy wrote this: "I don't believe their is any difference between co-creating and union with the divine. They are one in the same. And I don't believe there is an end to 'exhausting all separating desires'. If Aries is the first stage of evolution, its need to separate from source (mother, God) is its natural state. It's firey impulse, just begins anew the circle of un-ending evolution. Virgo is not naturally guilt-ridden, that is a patriarchal conditioning, and thus is perceived as judgment." I feel that this is a great articulation of a healthy (and correct?!) view of the Divine in relation to creation and creation in relation to the Divine. Does this help?
Love,
Ellen
QuoteMy impression was that human form eventually arrives at one desire: to know its Source. The Divine, God/Godess, should not be thought of as a place or as an anthropomorphic being of absolute stillness, but more as a culmination of one extreme of an all-encompassing and perpetual cycle. A cycle implies two opposite yet complementary forces in operation as a whole. The Source, therefore, is present at all times of evolution as the current relationship of the two forces. If that relationship stands at say 60/40 in the present phase of evolution - in Rudhyar's terms the principle of Multiplicity being the 60 in this example (which in human form correlates to the desire to separate from Source) and the principle of Unity at 40 (in human terms the desire to return to Source) - then the Source is present as said equation. It's as though we are all, as the current ratio or relationship of the two forces, culminating toward a unified concentration of Source, a sort of 1/99 ratio, which will then reverse toward a separating multiplication of that Source in a new great cycle due to an inevitable (because there are two forces or aspects of being) "failed" 1 percent.
Taf, there is so much in that! These words open me up to a new depth. Though I don't understand/grasp entirely the notion of the failed 1%. Will you share more about this especially as it relates to the original intention of this discussion: the Aries separation anxiety?
Two feeling come up for me as I reflect on your post:
1. Wow, god is the process. And,
2. What's the point?
Hi Ari,
Taf's quote below, as you noted, has felt clarifying for me. I am not sure that I fully understand it, but one thought I had in thinking about this was in thinking about a human being at any given point in time of her/his development. At any point in time, the potential of that person is 100% present. Yet the realization of that potential will not necessarily be so. Assuming the potential WAS realized, that DOESN'T mean that creation now ceases, only that creation is now in full force - fully realized.........
Taf, if my thinking is in error, please let me know.
Thanks,
Ellen
Quote from: Taf on Mar 23, 2011, 07:08 PM
Having said such things, I must say that I don't necessarily think that JWG ever precisely stated that evolution ends with a re-merging with the Divine, even if it is easy to be read in such a manner. My impression was that human form eventually arrives at one desire: to know its Source. The Divine, God/Godess, should not be thought of as a place or as an anthropomorphic being of absolute stillness, but more as a culmination of one extreme of an all-encompassing and perpetual cycle. A cycle implies two opposite yet complementary forces in operation as a whole. The Source, therefore, is present at all times of evolution as the current relationship of the two forces. If that relationship stands at say 60/40 in the present phase of evolution - in Rudhyar's terms the principle of Multiplicity being the 60 in this example (which in human form correlates to the desire to separate from Source) and the principle of Unity at 40 (in human terms the desire to return to Source) - then the Source is present as said equation. It's as though we are all, as the current ratio or relationship of the two forces, culminating toward a unified concentration of Source, a sort of 1/99 ratio, which will then reverse toward a separating multiplication of that Source in a new great cycle due to an inevitable (because there are two forces or aspects of being) "failed" 1 percent.
The 60/40 example of a constantly evolving and revolving ratio would also not mean that the desire for separation was a "stronger" force at that time, the strength is relative to which force is ascending.
warmly and humbly,
taf
Hi Ari,
Here are some basic notes/outline for this chart:
(http://i853.photobucket.com/albums/ab96/lindatjonson/Ariesarchetype-Cardinalchartpractice.jpg)
CARDINALITY AND RULERSHIP1st house Libra Pluto, Mars, Saturn (all
ruled by Venus Aquarius 5th)
4th house Capricorn Sun, SN, S Ven, S Jup, S Plu, S Sat (all
ruled by Saturn Libra 1st in balsamic conjunction with Pluto)
7th house Aries PPP, N Mars (both
ruled by Mars Libra 1st conjunct Asc and in first phase trine to Venus)
10th house Cancer NN, N, Jup, N Plu, N Sat (all
ruled by Moon Gemini 9th trining Pluto and conjunct MC)
The ongoing evolutionary intentions of her Soul correlated to a series of past lifetimes in the archetypal themes of the Cardinal signs and houses as reflected in the current birth chart. The cardinal signs show up repeatedly in signs, houses, rulerships and planetary nodes. This indicates there had been an urgent requirement for evolution at an accelerated pace through the initiation of new Soul desires, since her Soul had been moving away from fixed and mutable energies.
PARADOXES The paradoxes in this chart pertain to the Cardinal axis. The planets in the 1st house symbolize a desire to be free and independent, yet there is also a desire to complete herself in relationships (Libra). From an evolutionary point of view, this signature means that she had given too much of herself to other people's realities in the past. The current life paradoxical symbols correlate to initiating action and change so that relationships become equal and self-sufficient, partners will fit her reality, and she will learn to honour her own individual needs without losing herself to the needs of others.
WHERE HAS THIS SOUL COME FROM IN THE PAST? In the evolutionary past this Soul had basically been moving into the unknown, on a quest of self-discovery. There was no plan or idea of what would be ahead. Gender switch. The new evolutionary cycle is reflected by the intense Cardinality in this chart. There is a lot of movement (perhaps an inability to rest or slow down) - but this is reflective of a
karmic necessity for the new evolutionary cycle for this Soul.
Pluto Libra 1st The instinctive and spontaneous desire nature created a forward movement and a continuous unfolding of desires, risk-taking and radical departure from the past, resulting in accelerated evolutionary growth. The interface between S Pluto Cap 4th, natal Pluto Libra 1st, and N Pluto Cancer 10th correlates to initiating change, taking new directions, strengthening inner emotional structures, developing maturity within her social role, and making different choices in relationships.
Venus Retrograde Pluto, Mars and Saturn in the 1st house are all ruled by Venus Aquarius 5th serving to
accelerate personal liberation, uniqueness, creative expression, and sense of purpose. What is interesting to note here is that Venus is Retrograde, a liberation and individuating process (repeat, re-live, resolve), which balances her Soul's inner and outer needs, and balances all of her relationships. She's had to redefine her relationship to herself (to love herself first, express her uniqueness), to others (on her terms, not theirs) and to the world (coming from a place of inner authority). Specific life circumstances were repeated in order to resolve the issues of Venus Rx.
PPP 7th All the cardinality, energy, newness, creativity, uniqueness and forward movement is being channeled into a career by way of the PPP 7th, NN 10th, facilitator Moon 9th, and Venus 5th, thereby channeling that great energy of hers into her work as a clown - making people laugh, especially children.
SN Cap 4th The Soul purpose was supported by the egocentric structure of SN Cap 4th by having to face the consequences of past actions, in the culmination of the current cycle (Saturn). The stress implied here is that of needing freedom but needing emotional security at the same time.
Saturn Libra 1st Saturn in balsamic conjunction to Pluto meant the completion of a cycle where she had been learning about her own inner authority (in the area of relationships). The interface between S Sat Cap 4th, the current Saturn Libra 1st, and N Sat Cancer 10th correlates to the strengthening of inner emotional structures, expressing self-authority, and improving performance in her social role through the development of social maturity.
Mars Libra 1st Through Mars in balsamic phasal relationship to Pluto, a primary desire in prior lifetimes had been seeking out and idealizing partners through magnetic/instinctive attractions, resulting in disillusionment. This lead to finding the meaning of that cycle "within" herself (balsamic), not partners, and strengthening her sense of self. The interface between S Mars Sag 3rd, the current Mars Libra 1st, and the N Mars Aries 7th correlates to an outward expression of honest communication, freedom, equality, energy, spontaneity in relationships.
WHAT KIND OF INNER CONFRONTATIONS HAS THIS SOUL EXPERIENCED? The excessive cardinality meant a loss of emotional security, leading to a desire to go inward, so that she could stabilize the new realities that she had been initiating. Two steps forward, one step back. After gathering herself and calming down, she would then initiate another round of cardinal desires, and so on.
SKIPPED STEPS Pluto and Saturn square the Nodes. Resolution Node = NN Cancer 10th = resolution (focus) through her career, work, social role, self-authority, discipline, etc. (Tired now, so I'll stop here.)
I'll look forward to your (and others) assessment and further discussion concerning this chart.
Hi Ari,
In addition to what Linda has written, here are my initial thoughts on this. Thanks for the opportunity to practice..
Libra - Male/Air/Cardinal
Male - Moving outward from the center
Air - Intellect - compare and contrast
Cardinal - Initiate action - 2 steps forward, 1 step back
Pluto/Mars/Balsamic
The Soul is nearing the end of a long cycle of development. Thus the themes of this cycle will feel quite familiar to her. In this lifetime she is actively engaged in completing the cycle - and this through the mutation of the fundamental themes. There is also the idea (and happening!) with the Balsamic phase of the expansion of consciousness, so to me there is the sense of relating to these very old and familiar dynamics from a completely new level.
Pluto/Mars/Libra/1st
From the perspective of the discussion we've been having about the original anxiety of separation, this is one of the themes that this Soul has been working on for many, many lifetimes. In the past she may have felt that her life depended completely on others and that she could not exist without them. In time she came to understand that she could indeed exist without them but that relationships provided her with the opportunity to grow and expand through the experience of encountering differing ways of being in the world. With this profound need for inner growth (Venus retrograde in 5th), she would have instinctively sought out relationships of all kinds. With Jupiter (in Scorpio) in a New Phase conjunction with Pluto, there is the sense of deriving a great deal of benefit from these encounters - being able, from them, to penetrate to the core of her own values (Jupiter in second house) and thus find meaning in her life. And because it is New Phase, perhaps still the feeling of something new for her, and thus something exciting. (Perhaps in past lifetimes, she felt dependent on others for meaning, and this became a stifling dynamic for her"¦"¦.). To me the feel I get from this chart is that the experience of the original anxiety of separation is in the past, and that now life is in fact about DERIVING meaning from these same signatures because she has already worked through the extremes.
Moon/Saturn - Disseminating Trine
Because Mars/Pluto are Balsamic, there will be the sense of completion to this dynamic. Moon/Saturn rule her nodes, which are involved in a skipped steps signature. She has, in prior incarnations, struggled to understand and realize her own role in the world. I am thinking that, with Moon/Saturn in a Disseminating Trine, this is because her parents were unable to model for her a way to integrate into society (disseminating trine) without losing their sense of individuality (crescent polarity). Either her parents were consensus (and thus were not yet in need of retaining a sense of individuation in the social context) or, if individuated, themselves had not yet worked out this need and thus modeled anxiety about it.
In terms of the original anxiety of separation that is a theme of Mars (Aries) in relation to Pluto (Scorpio) and the Moon (Cancer), it is interesting that Saturn falls between culminating Mars/Pluto, and that Saturn, in Disseminating Trine to the Moon, indicates the need for social integration. Further, the NN (the skipped step that needs to be integrated) is in Cancer in the 10th (ruled by the Moon, and thus the Moon/Saturn aspect). The fact that her parents were unable to model for her how to integrate into society without losing her sense of individuation would have been a central component of this anxiety. Alleviation is accomplished by the manifestation of her creative purpose in the world - by true self-actualization (Venus in 5th rules Saturn).
Quote from: EllenHi Wendy,
Wonderful response and it is refreshing to hear you feeling/being so clear on this within yourself. Thanks to this discussion, and definitely in part because of your articulation here, I am pretty much there myself. One question I have for you is how would you explain or define the "original anxiety" aspect of the archetype.. If separation is the natural state of Aries, how do you understand the anxiety part of that equation?[/color][quote/]
I FEEL THE ANXIETY COMES FROM SEPARATION SOURCE, LIKE A BABY BEING BORN, OUT FROM THE WOMB. IT IS NATURAL FOR ARIES.
Evolution is a continuous process, even when all souls have joined in union, there still will be evolution and creation. Creation just is. A thought form that manifests into reality. Granted the different stages of evolution assist a soul in union with the divine, and thus so does the need for separation.
Can you explain this sentence a little more? I don't feel I understand what you are wanting to communicate. I hear you equating the different stages of evolution and the need for separation in some way but I don't understand it........
Upasika expressed it all so well. She said everything I don't seem to have the ability to articulate yet (SN Sag, still working on NN Gemini). I was suggesting that evolution is continuous, even if all the humans on the planet were not here, the cosmos would still be evolving...and when we are here on the planet (human souls, animal souls), like now, a 2nd stage spiritual soul with lots of Aries planets/signatures in an archetypal phase of separating from source (pisces), they can be just as close to source, and possibly more so than an individual soul with lots of Pisces in an individuated state.
Because s/he understands her/himself better?
and ultimately higher-self.
Virgo and guilt in relation to Aries. I believe this expresses as Aries being unaware of the intrinsic workings, details, of the bodymind, on its own that is.
Can you explain more about how the guilt plays into that - how you understand that connection between the 2 - guilt and Aries unawareness? Does the guilt--> Aries unaware? Or does Virgo somehow experience guilt in response to Aries' propensities...? Perhaps Aries' lack of interest in what is so fundamental to Virgo - the workings of the mind - triggers Virgo insecurity which triggers guilt? Might that be what you are meaning?
This is a good question, and I'm not sure of the answer. I will have to go back and read your original post, and read more about the archetypes.
Thanks Ellen for asking me to answer to my comments. I appreciate it.
Quote from: Wendy on Mar 27, 2011, 09:00 PM
Quote from: EllenHi Wendy,
Wonderful response and it is refreshing to hear you feeling/being so clear on this within yourself. Thanks to this discussion, and definitely in part because of your articulation here, I am pretty much there myself. One question I have for you is how would you explain or define the "original anxiety" aspect of the archetype.. If separation is the natural state of Aries, how do you understand the anxiety part of that equation?[/color][quote/]
I FEEL THE ANXIETY COMES FROM SEPARATION SOURCE, LIKE A BABY BEING BORN, OUT FROM THE WOMB. IT IS NATURAL FOR ARIES.
Thanks, Wendy... This is quite clear and makes complete sense!
Evolution is a continuous process, even when all souls have joined in union, there still will be evolution and creation. Creation just is. A thought form that manifests into reality. Granted the different stages of evolution assist a soul in union with the divine, and thus so does the need for separation.
Can you explain this sentence a little more? I don't feel I understand what you are wanting to communicate. I hear you equating the different stages of evolution and the need for separation in some way but I don't understand it........
Upasika expressed it all so well. She said everything I don't seem to have the ability to articulate yet (SN Sag, still working on NN Gemini). I was suggesting that evolution is continuous, even if all the humans on the planet were not here, the cosmos would still be evolving...and when we are here on the planet (human souls, animal souls), like now, a 2nd stage spiritual soul with lots of Aries planets/signatures in an archetypal phase of separating from source (pisces), they can be just as close to source, and possibly more so than an individual soul with lots of Pisces in an individuated state.
Yes, this makes sense to me. Perfectly clear now!
Because s/he understands her/himself better?
and ultimately higher-self.
Virgo and guilt in relation to Aries. I believe this expresses as Aries being unaware of the intrinsic workings, details, of the bodymind, on its own that is.
Can you explain more about how the guilt plays into that - how you understand that connection between the 2 - guilt and Aries unawareness? Does the guilt--> Aries unaware? Or does Virgo somehow experience guilt in response to Aries' propensities...? Perhaps Aries' lack of interest in what is so fundamental to Virgo - the workings of the mind - triggers Virgo insecurity which triggers guilt? Might that be what you are meaning?
This is a good question, and I'm not sure of the answer. I will have to go back and read your original post, and read more about the archetypes.
I look forward to your answer.... And you're welcome re: asking the questions. I appreciate the opportunity to learn from you......
Best wishes,
Ellen
Thanks Ellen for asking me to answer to my comments. I appreciate it.
taf,
I cannot tell you how grateful I am for the thoughts, understanding, wisdom and knowledge you have shared. I asked such a simple question, and you have responded by showing that beneath that question is the answer of profound understanding. To hear your understanding that the "original anxiety of separation" is, at its core, the anxiety of the 99% in relation and response to the 1% (this is how I have understood what you shared), completely shifts my understanding and perspective and allows me a much greater interior peace about this whole matter. I had been trying to understand this teaching from a perspective of abandonment or loathing and trying to make sense of it from there. But you have framed it this way:
"The original anxiety of separation as it applies to Aries would be related to the cyclic forces of God. At 1m/99u that 1% separation (the contracts with Evil of EA, or failures to unify with the Unity principle) would present the Whole with a sense of "anxiety" at the inability to feel completely and absolutely ONE. One and Whole being very different phenomena. This "anxiety" is ultimately what causes the deep Compassion inherent in the 99u to release once again for a new attempt at total unification."
And when it is framed in this way, to me, it is about love. And now I can understand those initial moments of separation that the newborn feels and not feel anger and rebellion (!) because that moment itself arises out of the desire for "a new attempt at total unification".
I hope I have correctly understood you. I will continue to read through what you have written and, in time, make a study of the authors and books you have referenced.
Love,
Ellen
PS The Marais quote about the white ants is amazing. And also, thank you for sharing a little of your knowledge of JWG. I only know him from his DVD's and books, and it means a lot to hear about him and his life from those who knew/know him.
Hi Linda,
Quote
Venus Retrograde Pluto, Mars and Saturn in the 1st house are all ruled by Venus Aquarius 5th serving to accelerate personal liberation, uniqueness, creative expression, and sense of purpose. What is interesting to note here is that Venus is Retrograde, a liberation and individuating process (repeat, re-live, resolve), which balances her Soul's inner and outer needs, and balances all of her relationships. She's had to redefine her relationship to herself (to love herself first, express her uniqueness), to others (on her terms, not theirs) and to the world (coming from a place of inner authority). Specific life circumstances were repeated in order to resolve the issues of Venus Rx.
PPP 7th All the cardinality, energy, newness, creativity, uniqueness and forward movement is being channeled into a career by way of the PPP 7th, NN 10th, facilitator Moon 9th, and Venus 5th, thereby channeling that great energy of hers into her work as a clown - making people laugh, especially children.
I understand the correlation to children based on the 5th house, however in this case, I don't think we can read it that way. The clowning symbolizes a transcendent impulse within her soul to communicate in a way that transcends all barriers of language. As the Moon is the ruler of her nn, in Gemini in the 9th Opposing Neptune in the 3rd, her specific career or social role is in fact to facilitate some form of teaching/communication of spiritual truths that in its nature will be nurturing and completely accessible to all.
To me the Venus in the 5th retro describes the nature of her value system and thus how all of this is ultimately internalized and given personal meaning. This is about understanding who she is on her own terms and owning that no matter what other people think. Venus retro in Aquarius in the 5th with respect to all the Capricorn shows the intensity of this "finding her own" function. Lots of necessary introspection in this life in order to find a way to be in the world that is a true expression of her self, not just who is "supposed to be" (Capricorn). In the end, I sense she is more likely to do this work with elders (Capricorn) and I know she intends to make connections to nursing homes and places like that
Mars Libra 1st Through Mars in balsamic phasal relationship to Pluto, a primary desire in prior lifetimes had been seeking out and idealizing partners through magnetic/instinctive attractions, resulting in disillusionment. This lead to finding the meaning of that cycle "within" herself (balsamic), not partners, and strengthening her sense of self. The interface between S Mars Sag 3rd, the current Mars Libra 1st, and the N Mars Aries 7th correlates to an outward expression of honest communication, freedom, equality, energy, spontaneity in relationships.
That's great you brought that up. Note also that the nn of Mars opposes the natal Mars. This is yet another signature that emphasizes the Aries energy in this chart. The ultimate point here is finding a partner who will want nothing of her other than to be exactly who she is. With this partner, she can be touched, be nurtured and share herself in the way her soul desires (Mars/Libra signatures with respect to the evolutionary axis of the chart). However based on her deep interest in other people, and the desire to create all kinds of relationships with many souls, this emphasizes the karmic lesson in learning true balance between giving and sharing.
Hi Ellen,
QuotePluto/Mars/Balsamic
The Soul is nearing the end of a long cycle of development. Thus the themes of this cycle will feel quite familiar to her. In this lifetime she is actively engaged in completing the cycle - and this through the mutation of the fundamental themes. There is also the idea (and happening!) with the Balsamic phase of the expansion of consciousness, so to me there is the sense of relating to these very old and familiar dynamics from a completely new level.
Awesome point to make! This really describes the nature of her Saturnian introspection.
Pluto/Mars/Libra/1st
From the perspective of the discussion we've been having about the original anxiety of separation, this is one of the themes that this Soul has been working on for many, many lifetimes. In the past she may have felt that her life depended completely on others and that she could not exist without them. In time she came to understand that she could indeed exist without them but that relationships provided her with the opportunity to grow and expand through the experience of encountering differing ways of being in the world. With this profound need for inner growth (Venus retrograde in 5th), she would have instinctively sought out relationships of all kinds. With Jupiter (in Scorpio) in a New Phase conjunction with Pluto, there is the sense of deriving a great deal of benefit from these encounters - being able, from them, to penetrate to the core of her own values (Jupiter in second house) and thus find meaning in her life. And because it is New Phase, perhaps still the feeling of something new for her, and thus something exciting. (Perhaps in past lifetimes, she felt dependent on others for meaning, and this became a stifling dynamic for her"¦"¦.). To me the feel I get from this chart is that the experience of the original anxiety of separation is in the past, and that now life is in fact about DERIVING meaning from these same signatures because she has already worked through the extremes.
I want to add some thoughts to this. The core conflict in the past has been linked to family responsibilities versus her need to actualize herself on her own terms, and within that attracting a personal relationship life that supports that. What ended up happening was a co-dependency and attachment to the family structures, and the relationships that existed within that. In this life, she has in fact re-lived that same conflict. For maybe 4 years or something she has lived with an elderly woman who was entirely dependent on her. All the while she was a very eclectic and powerful soul, yet felt an inner responsibility, and I sense guilt, to take care of this woman, all to the sacrifice of her own personal life. This to me is a reflection of the unresolved desires of the past, to develop a solid emotional foundation for herself in this life all the while actualizing herself, on her own terms, in society.
Moon/Saturn - Disseminating Trine
Because Mars/Pluto are Balsamic, there will be the sense of completion to this dynamic. Moon/Saturn rule her nodes, which are involved in a skipped steps signature. She has, in prior incarnations, struggled to understand and realize her own role in the world. I am thinking that, with Moon/Saturn in a Disseminating Trine, this is because her parents were unable to model for her a way to integrate into society (disseminating trine) without losing their sense of individuality (crescent polarity). Either her parents were consensus (and thus were not yet in need of retaining a sense of individuation in the social context) or, if individuated, themselves had not yet worked out this need and thus modeled anxiety about it.
I'm going to ask her about her parents, that would reveal a lot to us. I actually don't know anything about them. About the disseminating trine, I do not see that her parents were not able to to model for her a way to integrate into society. To the contrary, she would have attracted parents who can model that for her as reflected by the fact that it's a disseminating trine: she knows how things work around here.
In terms of the original anxiety of separation that is a theme of Mars (Aries) in relation to Pluto (Scorpio) and the Moon (Cancer), it is interesting that Saturn falls between culminating Mars/Pluto, and that Saturn, in Disseminating Trine to the Moon, indicates the need for social integration. Further, the NN (the skipped step that needs to be integrated) is in Cancer in the 10th (ruled by the Moon, and thus the Moon/Saturn aspect). The fact that her parents were unable to model for her how to integrate into society without losing her sense of individuation would have been a central component of this anxiety. Alleviation is accomplished by the manifestation of her creative purpose in the world - by true self-actualization (Venus in 5th rules Saturn).
To me, the model of her early conditioning life as symbolizing a loss of individuation linked to family and social responsibilities is reflected in the skipped step signatures themselves. I don't think the Moon Saturn phase alone, speaks to that. Thank you both for your analysis, I'm going to reflect on this chart and see what I have to add that relates to this thread.
Ari Moshe
Quote from: Taf on Mar 28, 2011, 05:54 PM
Quote from: Ellen on Mar 28, 2011, 11:40 AM
And when it is framed in this way, to me, it is about love. And now I can understand those initial moments of separation that the newborn feels and not feel anger and rebellion (!) because that moment itself arises out of the desire for "a new attempt at total unification".
Hi Ellen,
You put it beautifully! That would be my understanding of it all. Thank you for asking such questions that do demand answers. What I hope I have provided is a direction to look into (and for me to continue to look into). So I thank you for asking such difficult questions. You will find much more down that path than I can point out.
Ari, thank you so much for hosting this thread. I'd like to look more into your posts when I can.
Oh, and just for the record, I did not know JWG. I apologize if I left that impression. I am studying all of his teachings, with the help of Rad, Deva, Ari and everyone on this message board, and trying to utilize them in day to day affairs like the rest of us. The level of intuition that can be attained from them is incredibly profound and I am so grateful for their existence.
kindly,
taf
Hi taf,
Yes, you have provided wonderful direction for me to look into and travel down when I am able. And thank you for clarifying re: JWG. People seem to know so much about him and I know NOTHING! In time.......
Best,
Ellen
Quote from: ari moshe on Mar 28, 2011, 03:45 PM
Hi Linda,
Quote
Venus Retrograde Pluto, Mars and Saturn in the 1st house are all ruled by Venus Aquarius 5th serving to accelerate personal liberation, uniqueness, creative expression, and sense of purpose. What is interesting to note here is that Venus is Retrograde, a liberation and individuating process (repeat, re-live, resolve), which balances her Soul's inner and outer needs, and balances all of her relationships. She's had to redefine her relationship to herself (to love herself first, express her uniqueness), to others (on her terms, not theirs) and to the world (coming from a place of inner authority). Specific life circumstances were repeated in order to resolve the issues of Venus Rx.
PPP 7th All the cardinality, energy, newness, creativity, uniqueness and forward movement is being channeled into a career by way of the PPP 7th, NN 10th, facilitator Moon 9th, and Venus 5th, thereby channeling that great energy of hers into her work as a clown - making people laugh, especially children.
I understand the correlation to children based on the 5th house, however in this case, I don't think we can read it that way. The clowning symbolizes a transcendent impulse within her soul to communicate in a way that transcends all barriers of language. As the Moon is the ruler of her nn, in Gemini in the 9th Opposing Neptune in the 3rd, her specific career or social role is in fact to facilitate some form of teaching/communication of spiritual truths that in its nature will be nurturing and completely accessible to all.
To me the Venus in the 5th retro describes the nature of her value system and thus how all of this is ultimately internalized and given personal meaning. This is about understanding who she is on her own terms and owning that no matter what other people think. Venus retro in Aquarius in the 5th with respect to all the Capricorn shows the intensity of this "finding her own" function. Lots of necessary introspection in this life in order to find a way to be in the world that is a true expression of her self, not just who is "supposed to be" (Capricorn). In the end, I sense she is more likely to do this work with elders (Capricorn) and I know she intends to make connections to nursing homes and places like that
Mars Libra 1st Through Mars in balsamic phasal relationship to Pluto, a primary desire in prior lifetimes had been seeking out and idealizing partners through magnetic/instinctive attractions, resulting in disillusionment. This lead to finding the meaning of that cycle "within" herself (balsamic), not partners, and strengthening her sense of self. The interface between S Mars Sag 3rd, the current Mars Libra 1st, and the N Mars Aries 7th correlates to an outward expression of honest communication, freedom, equality, energy, spontaneity in relationships.
That's great you brought that up. Note also that the nn of Mars opposes the natal Mars. This is yet another signature that emphasizes the Aries energy in this chart. The ultimate point here is finding a partner who will want nothing of her other than to be exactly who she is. With this partner, she can be touched, be nurtured and share herself in the way her soul desires (Mars/Libra signatures with respect to the evolutionary axis of the chart). However based on her deep interest in other people, and the desire to create all kinds of relationships with many souls, this emphasizes the karmic lesson in learning true balance between giving and sharing.
Hi Ellen,
QuotePluto/Mars/Balsamic
The Soul is nearing the end of a long cycle of development. Thus the themes of this cycle will feel quite familiar to her. In this lifetime she is actively engaged in completing the cycle - and this through the mutation of the fundamental themes. There is also the idea (and happening!) with the Balsamic phase of the expansion of consciousness, so to me there is the sense of relating to these very old and familiar dynamics from a completely new level.
Awesome point to make! This really describes the nature of her Saturnian introspection.
Pluto/Mars/Libra/1st
From the perspective of the discussion we've been having about the original anxiety of separation, this is one of the themes that this Soul has been working on for many, many lifetimes. In the past she may have felt that her life depended completely on others and that she could not exist without them. In time she came to understand that she could indeed exist without them but that relationships provided her with the opportunity to grow and expand through the experience of encountering differing ways of being in the world. With this profound need for inner growth (Venus retrograde in 5th), she would have instinctively sought out relationships of all kinds. With Jupiter (in Scorpio) in a New Phase conjunction with Pluto, there is the sense of deriving a great deal of benefit from these encounters - being able, from them, to penetrate to the core of her own values (Jupiter in second house) and thus find meaning in her life. And because it is New Phase, perhaps still the feeling of something new for her, and thus something exciting. (Perhaps in past lifetimes, she felt dependent on others for meaning, and this became a stifling dynamic for her"¦"¦.). To me the feel I get from this chart is that the experience of the original anxiety of separation is in the past, and that now life is in fact about DERIVING meaning from these same signatures because she has already worked through the extremes.
I want to add some thoughts to this. The core conflict in the past has been linked to family responsibilities versus her need to actualize herself on her own terms, and within that attracting a personal relationship life that supports that. What ended up happening was a co-dependency and attachment to the family structures, and the relationships that existed within that. In this life, she has in fact re-lived that same conflict. For maybe 4 years or something she has lived with an elderly woman who was entirely dependent on her. All the while she was a very eclectic and powerful soul, yet felt an inner responsibility, and I sense guilt, to take care of this woman, all to the sacrifice of her own personal life. This to me is a reflection of the unresolved desires of the past, to develop a solid emotional foundation for herself in this life all the while actualizing herself, on her own terms, in society.
Hi Ari,
Thanks for clarifying this. I had wondered if perhaps she might actually relive a little these dynamics. Thanks for sharing this bit of her life as it is tremendously helpful in gaining a better understanding of the dynamics at play in a chart.
Moon/Saturn - Disseminating Trine
Because Mars/Pluto are Balsamic, there will be the sense of completion to this dynamic. Moon/Saturn rule her nodes, which are involved in a skipped steps signature. She has, in prior incarnations, struggled to understand and realize her own role in the world. I am thinking that, with Moon/Saturn in a Disseminating Trine, this is because her parents were unable to model for her a way to integrate into society (disseminating trine) without losing their sense of individuality (crescent polarity). Either her parents were consensus (and thus were not yet in need of retaining a sense of individuation in the social context) or, if individuated, themselves had not yet worked out this need and thus modeled anxiety about it.
I'm going to ask her about her parents, that would reveal a lot to us. I actually don't know anything about them. About the disseminating trine, I do not see that her parents were not able to to model for her a way to integrate into society. To the contrary, she would have attracted parents who can model that for her as reflected by the fact that it's a disseminating trine: she knows how things work around here.
It will be very interesting and illuminating to hear about her parents. Here is what JWG wrote re: the disseminating trine that led me to the analysis I chose:
There is an underlying fear here, especially for those in the individuated state....f...one is in a consensus state, this trine is like a magical aspect. The doors are wide open. But if I find myself in an individuated state, what is the underlying fear now? [It] comes through the Crescent polarity... Suddenly my individuality is at risk."
I was thinking that it would/could apply to 1st Spiritual, too, but that could be a wrong assumption on my part.....
In terms of the original anxiety of separation that is a theme of Mars (Aries) in relation to Pluto (Scorpio) and the Moon (Cancer), it is interesting that Saturn falls between culminating Mars/Pluto, and that Saturn, in Disseminating Trine to the Moon, indicates the need for social integration. Further, the NN (the skipped step that needs to be integrated) is in Cancer in the 10th (ruled by the Moon, and thus the Moon/Saturn aspect). The fact that her parents were unable to model for her how to integrate into society without losing her sense of individuation would have been a central component of this anxiety. Alleviation is accomplished by the manifestation of her creative purpose in the world - by true self-actualization (Venus in 5th rules Saturn).
To me, the model of her early conditioning life as symbolizing a loss of individuation linked to family and social responsibilities is reflected in the skipped step signatures themselves. I don't think the Moon Saturn phase alone, speaks to that.
Thanks for pointing this. Yes, very clear in the skipped steps themselves.
Looking forward to what more you have to add...
Thank you both for your analysis, I'm going to reflect on this chart and see what I have to add that relates to this thread.
Ari Moshe
Hi Ari,
I was thinking of Rose Marcus' response to my question about Chiron on the Question re: Chiron thread. In terms of the chart we're looking at, I am wondering if ultimately she came to experience the somewhat prolonged situation of feeling trapped and frustrated in living with the elderly woman as homeopathic. In other words, did it ultimately seem to her that she was experiencing something very familiar to her but from her past, and the experience itself somehow made it possible for her to release it and move on.......? To me, that idea of a "homeopathic experience" would fit really well the balsamic nature of an experience.....
Peace,
Ellen
Hi all,
Here's some more bio info from my friend. I asked her about mom and dad, about the experience of living with the elderly woman, emotional imprints from her family etc. This is very helpful and revealing information. I'll post it, and later in the day I hope to return to this.
QuoteHI Ari Moshe!
I am very excited to realize my teaching capabilities and wow! how much fun I am having. I am interested in the astrological themes you are working with and I am glad to share my answers to your questions. 1) My parents: were divorced when I was three. My father was an abusive drinker at that time and my mom and I moved around a lot, while she finished nursing school. My mom (and I) were re-married when I was 9 and I was gifted a baby brother named Cole. I was adopted, took on a new last name and our family was grand, until my parents were divorced when I was about 22. My maternal grandparents were awesome and whole, hardworking and together until my grandfathers death a few years ago. My nana has been a homemaker and a piano teacher - my nampa a policeman of Boulder, CO. He was a tough man who taught hard working ethics - we all loved him, although suffered from not enough loving kindness (from my grandfather). His kids - my mom, aunt and uncle - have a hard time showing affection and my mother was the first born and black sheep of the family. She raised my brother and I with a caring heart, so much that she almost suffers from it now, she loves us so much. Is that possible? All I know about love, I learned from my mother - and even as I write this, I know I've learned elsewhere too, but she was my first and she has done very well by my brother and I. My mom wanted our lives as kids, to be full of love, unlike her childhood. Anyway, I realize this could be a very long message! Unfortunately, the man my mother married had a father (Opa) who mis-touched me for many years. It was a secret from the age of me being 9-15 and the last time he ever cornered me, I was 21. I can tell you that this part of my life affects me still and as you can imagine, the "father figure" of my world has come in many pieces of different figures. My birth father is a wonderful guy-happily married and alcohol free for many years now. He lives in CO and we love each other very much, but hardly see one another - every few years or so. My step dad- or adopted dad - I have nothing really to do with. He left my mom is such an ugly way and replaced our family with another....not fun - divorce sucks and my brother and I have a lot to learn and understand about love because of it. Yes, it sucks and yes, I am thankful for learning. My mother still suffers the heart ache and actually, we all do.
Cleo, the elderly woman I was living with recently passed away. Working for her was like working for a queen. She was the most elegant and graceful woman I ever met. She taught me a great deal about group dynamics and throwing fancy parties. Her and Art, her husband - were married almost 68 years! It seems like living with them was somehow helping me realize that love can last and that grandparents can be safe. I've always had a good standing with them, HOWEVER, my ability to communicate at times made my work and our lives together difficult. I was afraid to communicate things I was afraid of getting in trouble for, like coming home late. Eventually, I was so ashamed of my lack of communication that I judged myself right out of the situation. I was with them for about three years. I have always had good standing with them, although, towards the end - again, due to my lack of communication, I wasn't there when she died. I now help bring wine to ART who has a drinking problem - and has for years. However, he is 90 years old and without his love dove, feels totally lost. I am a comforting friend whom he can talk to openly - as he does not do with many folk. I love them both dearly and am eternally greatfull for the love that they gave me. They helped me to believe in myself and offered me a beautiful home - as you well know! It was a fulfilling work, however, I was work trading the apartment and had to keep another job to make money. That eventually tuckered me out so much that I couldn't stay anymore. I was afraid that I wasn't enough for them and I was juggling too much to be absolutely attentive the health needs. One last thing, I was also afraid of losing my privacy.
I did that work, because I work well with older people. I've been interested in something like the nursing and caring profession (thanks mom) for a long time and when I needed a new home, their place became available. I learned that people need an advocate for health care, that the small things like making a bed or saying good night - or a bowl of ice cream really do make a difference. AND, I just have an affinity with the older populations. I love how it slows me down...it takes time to be patient and to listen and I also loved learning about he details of their lives. Their stories of the past and also, how they lived. I could usually find missing things in the house, such as glasses or hearing aides. I payed attention to detail, so that I could always make them smile...
Inner conflicts I have are always around trust and communication. I obviously blame this on my experiences with "Opa" because something incorrect was happening to me and I kept it secret for years, because I dreamed my family would fall a part if I told anyone. Well, eventually, when the secret did come out, my family fell a part and the rest is history. I feel like because I kept that secret for so long, my faculty for talking about difficult subject matter gets kept in longer than usual (even today) and I have a hard time communicating my needs. I realize that the healing through this stuff is a golden opportunity for me...the wounded healer....and I'm joining the Monarch Advocacy Incest group next month... so there.
Well, Ari, is that enough information for ya? You asked! I hope that this information serves your studies well and of course, you can ask any clarifying questions you might have.
A note on my personal life. I am dating a man named Phil who is a lovely and musically inclined fellow. He is my mom and dad's age....go figure. We are happy together and keep house plants and care for cats. We are living together.
I feel a need to say something about what was posted here about EA evolution God and Jesus. The reason I feel a need to say something is to clarify for those who may come along and later read this thread, because I feel it may create confusion in newer students. Nothing I am about to say is intended as criticism of the person who posted it. It is simply to clarify what EA is and is not.
EA is not intellectual in any sense. It is not theoretical postulates. It is not linear. It does not view life as a methodical working out of cycles that neatly package and lead to some inevitable outcome in some pre-determined format.
EA is 100% observation and correlation to what simply is, to what has been observed and experienced in anyone's life. That is all it is. Jeffrey did not dream these ideas up as his great thoughts. Anyone can experience, does experience, in their own life, the archetypes and experiences, and consequences of choices, that EA describes. Because they simply are. It is just the way life works, whether or not we like that it is that way. The validity of what EA teaches is 100% demonstrateable from anyone's personal experience. It needs no external theories to prove it, or to improve it.
Dual desire nature within a Soul is not a theory. Every person experiences at different times the opposite pulls of their Soul's dual desire nature. I have never heard anyone describe their life as going from 99% to 1% to 99% to 1%. I have heard hundreds of people describe their life as confused or torn between two almost opposing, conflicting desire natures. If no one is having a life that matches a theoretical postulating of how life supposedly works, how can that be how life actually works? A theory is supposed to be a symbolic mapping or explanation of actual reality. As such, if it is an accurate map, it will match the lives that people living that reality are experiencing. That is your proof. Does what EA teaches about your Pluto by house and sign, and its polarity point, and the nodal axis, and the rulers of the nodes, match or not match the actual reality of the life you have been living? If it does, how much more theoretical postulating than that is required?
Jeffrey appreciated Rhudyar, for his pioneering work and attitude. That does not, in any way, mean he felt that every word and theory Rhudyar ever wrote was 100% accurate. No one should make that logical leap as it is not true.
When you get down to it, the EA that Jeffrey taught has little to do with Rhudyar's theories. Basically, EA is a roadmap, a methodology, to point out to us who we already are, where we have been, and where we are going. (The art of the counseling astrologer is to know enough about human nature and earth reality to help clients develop a plan to get them from where they are today to their next intended step, on their own terms, with no projections on them of what they have or have not done that's gotten them to the point they are today)
For any of us to be speculating on how Jesus got to where he is, where he is now and where he is going, is somewhat presumptuous. Because of our own conditionings, who we are invested in believing we are that is not who we are, if we were presented with the true answers to those questions we wouldn't even understand the significance of the answers due to the limitations in our own understanding of life and self.
One of the few descriptions of life on the other side for highly evolved entities that I myself take seriously is the chapter in Autobiography of a Yogi where Sri Yukteswar describes the nature of the astral and causal planes. This is not theory, this is description of reality presented by someone who is actually living in those planes. This description is of special significance to serious EA students since Jeffrey always gave full credit to Yukteswar as the true creator and founder of the EA that he, Jeffrey, had the job of spreading around the planet. He also called Yukteswar a Galactic Astrologer, one who understood the nature of God's creation. Although Jeffrey respected Rhudyar, as far as I know he never said anything of that sort about Rhudyar.
I want to acknowledge again that the person who made these statements was completely sincere in what they said. I do not mean to criticize their thinking. They have every right to see as they choose to. If their perspective is working for them, helps them understand life and assist their friends and clients, then it is just fine. My concern is the way these things were stated, with an underlying tone of "I have thought about these things for a long time and know what I am talking about", will confuse newer EA students about what EA actually is. Those thoughts are not part of the EA we teach here. That does not mean they are wrong or shouldn't be expressed here. It means only I felt a need to clarify what EA is for others who may not be as clear about what EA is and isn't as I've been coming to over a long period of time.
Thank you for listening.
Steve
Hi taf,
First, I wholeheartedly agree with Steve. Below are some responses to what you wrote.
****************************************
"But questions inevitably arise that maybe EA can not answer intrinsicly within itself. Thus an enveloping metaphysical system may be necessary within which EA can operate, and which JWG would have, in one way or another, personally used as his matrix which EA arose out of."
**************************************
First, EA can indeed answer any question about the nature of the Soul, and the choices it makes, and why those choices, and then the consequences of those choices. It does not need any other enveloping metaphysical system in order to operate. If fact it operates wholly and totally through the Natural Laws that the Creator set in motion. JWG had no beliefs at all, nor any grand metaphysical system or matrix. He often talked about the difference between 'beliefs' and actual knowledge. And then would say there is nothing to believe in, and everything to actually know. And that, indeed, is the essence of EA.
*********************************************
" Rudhyar's system of Wholeness is not that system (although his astrological works were highly influential to JWG), but nevertheless a system we can correlate EA to as all significant systems have a certain amount of Truth to them, thus correlation is possible within the unversal Truths inherent to each. I suppose for most it would be better to align with what JWG personally used, you can probably look to Yogananda's teachings, Christianity or esoteric Christianity, the Bahagavad-Gita, Buddhism, Yoga, and so on from there. Others would be far more able to assist in revealing JWG's personal metaphysics."
********************************************
It is pretty amazing the assumptions you are making about JWG. In reality the personal metaphysics within the inner reality of JWG was nothing more than what he directly inwardly experienced through an inner attunement to the nature of the Creation itself. In reality he read some paragraphs here and there of Rudyhars books which then became the basis of his opinion of Rudyhar. In fact he hardly read any books at all. He felt they all simply cluttered the mind of the Soul with debris that of itself blocked or prevented inner attunment to the nature of Creation. The EA that then came into him in this way, in fact in a dream, came from the impulse of Yukestwar. It was simply presented to him in this way all at once. He then began to apply it to his clients for several years before he wrote his first book so as to 'test' it. And, as a result of that, he always said it simply proves itself by the nature of life itself. There was no other need to wrap it within another metaphysical system at all.
********************************************
"However, keep in mind, Rudhyar would have used primarily the same matrix as JWG, (Ari you may find great affinity with his book Fire out of the Stone, a heart-wrenchingly enlightening take on the Bible and Christianity as it evolves into modern parlance and symbology) although I don't know how much JWG utilized or was familiar with Theosophy and its various branches, as Rudhyar was greatly influenced by H.P. Blavatsky. I know JWG and Rudolph Steiner's philosophies (who broke with Theosophy to develop Anthroposophy) are incredibly similar, especially in their views on reincarnation. But the point is that all systems herein are created by the human species for the human species, and therefore it is the quality and intention of each that is important and not necessarily the chronology or use of one when creating or correlating to another."
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In the actual reality and life of JWG he simply detested the works and the 'beliefs' of Theosophy and all it's branches and teachers. His typical comment about such stuff was 'this is bullshit'. JWG realized from within himself exactly what all the great Souls through time have realized: that the nature of consciousness in human form, the Soul encased in human form, was rooted in Desire which has a dual nature. That's it. And that, indeed, is the very essence of what he called 'the evolutionary journey of the soul'.
**********************************************
God Bless, Rad
Hi all,
So her bio points out to me something we haven't brought up yet, which is the fear of entrapment relative to the Saturn in the first inconjunct Chiron in the 8th. She was sexually abused for a number of years from a family elder (Saturn Pluto) and repressed that for years, in particular to protect her family and mother (Capricorn Cancer square). The inconjunct to Chiron points out a deep desire in her soul to merge with another, to feel stable and whole enough within herself to TRUST another and let go entirely. And yet the need for self protection, to remain independent and free of vulnerability (inconjunct 1st house).
What she shared about working with the elder is not what I originally thought it was. She actually enjoyed it very much and learned that "grandparents can be safe".
QuoteI was afraid that I wasn't enough for them and I was juggling too much to be absolutely attentive the health needs. One last thing, I was also afraid of losing my privacy.
That last statement is very telling of the nature of the square itself. Such a strong karmra of sacrificing and repressing her personal desires in life, FOR LIFE, for the needs of her family, or in this case the elders she was living with.
As I understand it, the disseminating phase trine between Moon and Saturn correlates to the supportive social reality of her emotional conditioning. We see that while the skipped step signatures and the Pluto Saturn point to the stress in her own family, that she has in fact been influenced by patriarchal and matriarchal values that have shaped her understanding of the world, and has been supportive of her emotional development.
Hi Steve and Rad,
Thank you for your clarifications about JWG and his work and, for lack of a better way of saying it, his way of orienting to life and experience. Not having known him personally, it is so helpful to hear what you have to say.
taf,
I truly appreciate your intention to answer my question and it has helped me a great deal. I have to defer to Steve and Rad about specific knowledge of JWG and from where and whom his work came from. And of course I will have to wrestle some more to understand JWG on his own terms. But I was touched by the attention you gave to my question and thank you for that.
Best wishes to all,
Ellen
Steve, Rad, Ellen and all,
I apologize for my posts here on this board. You are all absolutely correct and I will immediately delete them. I will think for a long time before allowing myself to post here again. You have been very kind and I am regretful to take advantage in such a strange fashion.
Sincerely,
taf
Quote from: Taf on Mar 30, 2011, 11:16 PM
Steve, Rad, Ellen and all,
I apologize for my posts here on this board. You are all absolutely correct and I will immediately delete them. I will think for a long time before allowing myself to post here again. You have been very kind and I am regretful to take advantage in such a strange fashion.
Sincerely,
taf
Hi Taf
I was very careful to make sure I was clear that I was not putting you down in any way in what I said. It was clear to me you were quite sincere in what you were saying. That is why I tried to make that point several times.
In terms of what you said or how you are thinking about it, I hope you can look at it something like this: it took courage on your part to express what you did, how you see things, on a public message board. As a result of acting with that courage your Soul attracted to itself an experience it needed that gave it a slight smack on the head. If you hadn't put yourself out you wouldn't have received the smack and you would still be thinking the same things. From what you said, the smack is causing you to reflect more deeply on what happened. That will wind up changing you, in small or large ways. And that to me is the whole point.
We are all oblivious and unaware of many many things, until the moment comes that one more light comes on and we see something we didn't see before. Then, when I look at what I thought was right on just a few hours or days ago, suddenly I see it in a new light and see how much I thought I knew I didn't really know. And seeing what I didn't know that I thought I knew is the definition of expanding self-awareness.
Now you have owned what you did. That is how we grow. When you own what you did and feel remorse or desire to atone, those are signs of awakeness, wanting to evolve. And that is all any of us can do when we experience our limits (Pluto).
You are very welcome to participate on this message board, including writing more. The reason people like me or Rad respond is not because we have judgments on the writer or feel defensive but simply to speak what we see as truth. Its 1) so others who are here learning don't get confused, and 2) at times to try to help someone see more deeply into where they are coming from, with the motivation of wanting to help them become aware of their own blocks so they can face them and move forward.
Anyone who spends any amount of time here, at the core level is desiring to grow, because that is what the conversation on this message board centers around.
None of us are perfect. We all have moments when we are off, starting with me. We want people to participate. That is the whole point.
So don't feel badly about what happened. Take it deep within and use it as further fuel to your understanding. That is the whole point of EA.
Vivekananda wrote a line I've never forgotten, something to the effect that we are not going from falseness to truth, rather from truth to greater truth. That is the reason for experiences like this, they point us to greater truths. You've done nothing wrong. Just learn from it.
take care taf
Steve
Hi taf,
No damage done whatsoever and no need to apologize. What I received was your desire and intention to help and to me that is what's important.
I very much look forward to your continued presence here.
Love,
Ellen
Same here Taf, and I appreciate your capacity to listen to the feedback you just received.
I too often learn the lesson to discriminate between what is appropriate information and not, as well as identifying my assumptions verses what I actually know. So I have learned something from Steve's and Rad's feedback as well. With Love,
am
Hi taf,
I can only second what Steve has said. It is evolution itself taf. I would encourage you as strongly as I can to continue to be part of our community here, and to participate in anyway that you wish.
God Bless, Rad
Hi all, Letting you know that I'll be away from the mb until Tuesday. Blessed Aries new Moon, it's a strong one. With love,
am
Hi all,
Anyone have any ideas of what to explore next in this thread? We can look at another chart that emphasizes the Aries archetype in a different way if there is an interest in that.
Hi Ari,
Welcome back. Here are a few suggestions for further exploration of the Aries archetype. These suggestions were gathered from members last year:
1. Possible ways the archetype may have been wounded in past lives due to patriarchal conditioning (eg historical correlations).
2. Possible ways the archetype may have been carried over into the present life (behavioural patterns, distortion, resistance, trauma, shock, etc.).
3. An outline of the archetype in its empowered form, as an expression of the Natural Law of giving, sharing and inclusion.
4. Comparison of the archetype in the Consensus / Individuated / Spiritual stages.
5. How the archetype manifests on Individual and Collective levels.
6. Physiological associations with the archetype. "Why" does any particular physiology/health issue etc correlate to the archetype.
7. How to assist clients with difficult issues by improving/evolving that area.
8. To discuss sample charts with a prominent Aries archetype.
9. Sign polarity catch phrases, eg Aries/Libra "To balance one's needs with a partner's needs."
10. An outline of Venus in Aries.
11. An outline of Mars in Aries.
12. Other correlations.
I'm interested in any or all of these areas allowing the correlations to the Aries archetype to be covered in-depth.
One area I've always been interested in learning more about is "How to assist clients with difficult issues by improving/evolving that area." This can be tricky, for one would not wish to judge, or offer solutions, instead one would wish to support clients and help them understand their difficult Mars/Aries issues.
Thank you Ari and everyone.
Hi Linda, thanks for re-posting those guidelines.
Quote1. Possible ways the archetype may have been wounded in past lives due to patriarchal conditioning (eg historical correlations).
One aspect of this we have not yet explored in much depth is the whole pychology of anger, defensiveness, and in a broader sense, war and violence. During the age of Aries the entire history seems to have been based on war. This age spanned from 2,260-100bc.During that time various nations developed aspirations to conquest and "win" their own personal agenda. The Hebrews saw themselves as a "chosen nation" with a special purpose to fulfill on behalf of their god. This purpose expressing in the conquest of specific region of earth that they were destined to inhabit. The Greek civilization and it's vast conquests.
Furthermore, the idea of the patriarchal God really developed big time during this age. This age is a natural square to the Cancer age - and in the context of the descending arc of the yugas, this has expressed as a stark separation from the womb and holistic quality of matriarchal principals. God is now jealous, angry, reactive, quick tempered.
Women (Cancer) were highly subordinated during this age. This is a reflection of the psychology of conquest. As it even says in the bible in the beginning of Genesis, "be fruitful and multiply, fill the earth and conquer/subdue it." (the old testament, excuding the book of the writings -k'tuvim- were cannonized during this age. All of the books of the old testament were also written during this age). I'd love to hear more thoughts about the distorted Aries archetype as it has continued into this current age.
Tory, if you feel you can provide some insight on any of the guidelines Linda has posted via your chart, please feel free to share your insights.
With Love,
am
Hi Ari,
Linda posted this link on the "Allies of Natural Healing" thread which I thought had relevance to your last post. It's long but I think worth listening to especially in the context of this aspect of Aries, ie, the patriarchal conditioning aspect and the transition from Matriarchy to Patriarchy that was so emphasized during the time frame you identify. Here's Linda's post from that thread with the link to the interview:
Unplugging the Patriarchy - a Project Avalon interview with Lucia Rene
You will enjoy this interview about the end of the Patriarchy, an important message for our changing times.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e4vPyClAHqs&feature=player_embedded
In the interview, Lucia Rene says that the transition from the 2nd to the 3rd chakra had to be made and that a conscious decision was made by "the matriarchs" (?) to allow the patriarchy to take hold. They understood that this was part of the process - learning about power - and that the only way to eventually get to the 4th chakra was to go though the 3rd. My question is: Did it have to play out that way - all the violence, bloodshed, oppression, etc? And if so, why? She talks about the child who can only learn about the danger of a hot stove by touching it. So she seems to be saying that the only way to learn about violence, abuse of power, etc., is to touch it. Seems like it's taken an awfully long time to jerk our "hand" away......! But apparently it's taken this long for the "burn" to register........ Just some somewhat unformed thoughts on this.....
Ellen
PS I am without internet at home for the meantime so my participation will be more sporadic for a time....
PPS Which chakra does Aries correlate to?
Hi Ellen, thanks for sharing that - I look forward to listening to that. I just ordered a copy of the book
The creation of patriarchy by Gerda Learner.
Jeff Green teaches that the naval chakra is associated with both Pluto and Mars. Here's a link to where Rad posts the chakra diagram.
https://forum.schoolofevolutionaryastrology.com/index.php/topic,174.0.html (https://forum.schoolofevolutionaryastrology.com/index.php/topic,174.0.html)
QuoteIn the interview, Lucia Rene says that the transition from the 2nd to the 3rd chakra had to be made and that a conscious decision was made by "the matriarchs" (?) to allow the patriarchy to take hold. They understood that this was part of the process - learning about power - and that the only way to eventually get to the 4th chakra was to go though the 3rd. My question is: Did it have to play out that way - all the violence, bloodshed, oppression, etc? And if so, why? She talks about the child who can only learn about the danger of a hot stove by touching it. So she seems to be saying that the only way to learn about violence, abuse of power, etc., is to touch it. Seems like it's taken an awfully long time to jerk our "hand" away......! But apparently it's taken this long for the "burn" to register........ Just some somewhat unformed thoughts on this.....
To me that question can be asked about the transition from any age to the next. One age is of course not innately more distorted than the other. It just happens to be that within the context of what we can understand as larger cycles that pertain to the level's of God-consciousness on this planet, during the transition into the age of Aries, the collective consciousness was progressively moving further from God consciousness.This is something the ancients had knowledge of, which is why so many teachings have been "planted" to be revealed at this age as we are now back on a ascending arc.
Quote from: ari moshe on Apr 06, 2011, 05:45 PM
Hi Ellen, thanks for sharing that - I look forward to listening to that. I just ordered a copy of the book The creation of patriarchy by Gerda Learner.
Jeff Green teaches that the naval chakra is associated with both Pluto and Mars. Here's a link to where Rad posts the chakra diagram.
https://forum.schoolofevolutionaryastrology.com/index.php/topic,174.0.html (https://forum.schoolofevolutionaryastrology.com/index.php/topic,174.0.html)
QuoteIn the interview, Lucia Rene says that the transition from the 2nd to the 3rd chakra had to be made and that a conscious decision was made by "the matriarchs" (?) to allow the patriarchy to take hold. They understood that this was part of the process - learning about power - and that the only way to eventually get to the 4th chakra was to go though the 3rd. My question is: Did it have to play out that way - all the violence, bloodshed, oppression, etc? And if so, why? She talks about the child who can only learn about the danger of a hot stove by touching it. So she seems to be saying that the only way to learn about violence, abuse of power, etc., is to touch it. Seems like it's taken an awfully long time to jerk our "hand" away......! But apparently it's taken this long for the "burn" to register........ Just some somewhat unformed thoughts on this.....
To me that question can be asked about the transition from any age to the next. One age is of course not innately more distorted than the other. It just happens to be that within the context of what we can understand as larger cycles that pertain to the level's of God-consciousness on this planet, during the transition into the age of Aries, the collective consciousness was progressively moving further from God consciousness.This is something the ancients had knowledge of, which is why so many teachings have been "planted" to be revealed at this age as we are now back on a ascending arc.
Hi Ari,
Thanks for your thoughts and for the resources. Looking forward to checking them out...
Ellen
Quote from: ari moshe on Apr 06, 2011, 03:39 PMDuring the age of Aries the entire history seems to have been based on war. This age spanned from 2,260-100bc......
Hi Ari,
Here are a few more historical correlations to the
Age of Aries:
Age of war, conquest, fire, strife, conflict, bold actions, courage, initiative, adventure, leadership, Iron Age, iron swords, battering ram used to break open walls and gates, conquer of indigenous peoples, expanding empires of China, Persia, Greece and Rome, survival of the tribe, protection of boundaries, monotheistic religions, Old Testament, Moses, the idea of a single supreme God, Egyptian god Amun ("amen"), sacrifice, originality in science/arts.
QuoteI'd love to hear more thoughts about the distorted Aries archetype as it has continued into this current age.
Distorted Aries archetype:extreme arrogance, self-centered behavior, delusions of self-importance, distorted sense of special destiny, domination, overpowering others, needing freedom at all costs, insecurity, sense of superiority, obtuse, lacking foresight or understanding, closed-minded, "my idea is the way things should be," cannot see another's point of view, relentlessly pushing its own agenda, me me me, self-focus at the expense of others, win-lose situations, lack of consideration for others, a fearful need to protect one's purpose, creating conflict with others, improper channeling of energies, accidents, irresponsible action, fear.
Transforming the Aries archetype: Profound transformative change on a personal and collective level is made possible through the powerful energies of Aries (the initiator) working as "the little brother" of Pluto (the unstoppable force of evolutionary change).
The resonance of the distorted Aries archetype resides in the blueprint of our Souls. Having learned from the past (Age of Aries), we now have the opportunity to move forward in a less painful way.
From the lower chakras of the unique individual self (microcosm) - to connecting with others (Libra, love) - to putting evolutionary intentions into motion, and experiencing deep soul connection with others (Scorpio) - to feeling at peace with the Unity of the Universe (Pisces, macrocosm).
Aries - 1st house - MarsSeparation and anxiety
of separation
Anger / Rage
Desires and
Desire nature
Identity
Freedom
Independence
War
Loner
Self
|
Violence
Sexual Instinct
Impatience (anger
at limitations)
Intolerance for Weakness
Instinct
Primal
Spontaneous enthusiasm
Initiative
Initiation
Expression of will
|
Super human
Zarathustra
Special destiny
Narcissism
Self interest
Warrior
Pioneer
Sexual Violence
Destroyer
Paranoia |
[P. Walsh, EA Archetypes]
Hi Ari and everyone,
Just adding a link to Deva's "Transits" thread (where we are working on Mars transits) which is relevant to the Aries Archetype discussion:
https://forum.schoolofevolutionaryastrology.com/index.php/topic,425.msg7045.html#msg7045
Quote from: ari moshe on Apr 06, 2011, 03:39 PM
Tory, if you feel you can provide some insight on any of the guidelines Linda has posted via your chart, please feel free to share your insights.
Thankyou Ari for kindly inviting me into the discussion, I'm a real beginner here and am still getting my head around my Venus (23°) Saturn conjunction, 4th house Aries, inconjunct Pluto (23°) 9th house Virgo, and inconjunct Neptune, 12th house Scorpio. Work in Progress!
Infinite blessings
Tory
Hi all,
I feel we have covered to a great degree the nature of Mars as the driving force that initiates all the activity of the individuated soul through time and space. In a state of distortion, this can express as the instinctive impulse to always being in a state of defense based on an inner anxiety of having separated from the wholeness. In a natural state, it is the innocent and moment to moment discovery of the unique unfolding path that is relevant to that soul.
Understanding Mars in this way naturally leads to an awareness to Pluto. Pluto is the underlying evolutionary purpose for being here, it symbolizes the soul itself; the immutable consciousness that is desirousness itself. In combination, the Mars Pluto interface points to the conscious individual will of the soul to jump head first into a path, a way of living, that enables a transmutation of consciousness.
In its shadow expression, the Mars Pluto interface can express as a perpetual fear of entrapment. Why? Mars is about absolute freedom and autonomy. However if that freedom is expressed as the perpetual need to resist the soul's destiny to return to Source, then the soul will perpetually resist evolution in order to protect its own existence. This of course is exemplified via the Aries Scorpio inconjunct.
In a conscious expression, the Mars Pluto interface points to the sheer willingness and single pointed will to "get on with it".
The phasal relationship between the two, as well as in a more general way, the interface between the 8th house, Scorpio and Pluto with the 1st house, Aries and Mars, will point out how the soul instigates it's own path towards or away from evolution. On its own, by itself.
So lets take a look at this Mars Pluto interface in this light. This is a good example as we are looking at a soul who I estimate to be towards the beginning of or in transition to early third stage spiritual (I'm curious what others estimate his ea state to be).
This will also exemplify the archetype of activism within the context of a spirituated consciousness.
Note: birth chart originally posted was naccurate. This seems to be a more correct time of birth
(http://i417.photobucket.com/albums/pp255/arimoshe/Gandhinatalchartcorrected.jpg)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohandas_Karamchand_Gandhi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohandas_Karamchand_Gandhi)
I recall reading on here (maybe old board,too) that Gandhi was third state individuated. I was somewhat surprised, but I'm not that familiar with his life, either.
Someone such as Einstein seems the perfect example of Third Individuated - a flowering of his individual genius as a benefit to the whole, his general recognition of the relativity of religions - and social norms, etc. - so, I found viewing Gandhi's life in that perspective - a flowering of his individual gifts helpful in understanding the determination of his state.
You can certainly see his stand for his own inner values and projecting that outward - i.e., 'taking a stand' with the Pluto placement. This projection of his own reality that he stood up for created the conflicts he needed for his own growth/transformation - the Scorpio/1st.
The question, of course would be why, there are many scenarios one could see within the placements running the gamut of those archetypes. I guess I'd need to feel firm in his evolutionary state & know more about his life. Sometimes I wonder if there was any 'making amends' for his own past actions? Also, any 'frog in the well' dynamic or issues with security that is linked with traumas deeply imbedded 'emotionally', PTSD, in his body and the need to recover his deeper core values to confront this. I do see a controlling dynamic and remember reading something about how strict/controlling he could be, and demanding of others.
Thanks for noticing that Jason.
Your right, I have corrected the original posting.
Lucius, I've been thinking about this, and it seems that Gandhi may have in fact evolved through various stages in one life. From his early life bio he seems to have started off this life at the very end of third stage individuated. He progressively became more committed to spiritual principals.
His chart implies a strong impulse for evolution for the life he lived in the fist place. This is exemplified by 4 angular aspects to Pluto, involving the angular houses. His life had the potential to be a directed, and evolutionarily focused lifetime, which in fact it was.
I think his strong adherence to a particular philosophy of the truth was very descriptive of second stage spiritual. He has made many naive and arrogant comments regarding the holocaust for example
Quote"Hitler," Gandhi said, "killed five million Jews. It is the greatest crime of our time. But the Jews should have offered themselves to the butcher's knife. They should have thrown themselves into the sea from cliffs... It would have aroused the world and the people of Germany... As it is they succumbed anyway in their millions."[60]
.
To me that reflects in a lack of wisdom and true understanding. It seems like the ego projecting its own ideas of the truth; affirming a truth that had already been decided upon. He did seem to eventually realize such mistakes:
Quote
However, Gandhi realised that this level of nonviolence required incredible faith and courage, which he believed everyone did not possess. He therefore advised that everyone need not keep to nonviolence, especially if it were used as a cover for cowardice: Gandhi guarded against attracting to his satyagraha movement those who feared to take up arms or felt themselves incapable of resistance. 'I do believe,' he wrote, 'that where there is only a choice between cowardice and violence, I would advise violence.'"[61]
It seems that his "experiments with truth" were just that. He made many what seems like second stage spiritual self righteous choices, and seems to have been humbled by them. Furthermore, his own faith was intensely tested when he lost so many ppl close to him in his life, including his wife who died in jail. He remained committed to the truth, turned to God ceaselessly. That continual desire for God in the midst of personal mistakes and personal loss I feel propelled immense evolution for this soul.
Thanks for your insights Ari & Jason - my brain was frizzle-frazzled last night & I didn't communicate very clearly. When I look at his chart loads of information comes into my mind & I can't keep up with it & get exhausted trying to explain it. Perhaps I'll give it a go again when I have more time.
I wanted to clarify that it was the old MB because I believe J.WolfGreen responded to the question himself. Also, I don't think anyone has ever stated that anyone evolves through many states in one lifetime - in fact, it's been repeated that no one does. What has been said is that a person may appear to be consensus, for example, and then 'awaken' later. I do believe Gandhi was an example - being a lawyer (?), etc. then moving into his 'true' state & expression later, then there was Ramakrishna's disciple (I asked about this on an old board & JWG responded) he too (cannot remember his name) was rather cynical, skeptical then at some point he 'awakened' to his 'true' self (and evolutionary state) - I'd also say that J.WolfGreen himself fits into this paradigm (for lack of a better word) - he was going about his life, an atheist, etc. went to Vietnam, etc. and there had an 'awakening' that put him on an utterly different trajectory than he or anyone who knew/cared about him would guess. I may be misunderstanding what you guys are saying - maybe you're saying what I'm saying - won't be the first time that's gone over my head! :)
I've been thinking off/on about his chart & see guilt, sado-masochistic issues - perhaps a mixture of natural and unnatural guilt. I think that he had some common issues with folks who are trying very hard to benefit the collective - the personal gets lost in the shuffle and those he claims to love are hurt - I think of (Ramakrishna?) who told a lady who was despairing at not having love for God - he asked her what she did love, I think she said her son, in which case Ramakrishna said that is your love for God - I've always liked that.
I agree with much of what you say jasonholley.
I wanted to add how much I respect your honesty, jasonholley in your feeling, thoughts & reactions.
This Pisces age has created, what I consider, the folly of the projection of a 'perfect' divinity upon the human animal. Obviously, Jesus is the prime example - the uses of a scapegoat & that someone else (and outside of ourselves) will 'take us there'. This is hand in hand with the patriarchal heirarchies which I have zero patience for anymore. Yogananda isn't a more 'spiritual' being than any of us - he exemplified where we are all going - where we'll all arrive with our own paths, destinies and desires - he isn't 'better' than us - but, thank god'dess he's here to help (and he would be the first to acknowledge your existence as a spiritual being - just using him as an example)! If you realize everything is naturally 'spiritual' what else is there? The dualistic patriarchal nonsense is so ingrained from millenia of incarnations. I guess all of us here are a tide against it, let's hope.
Anyway - I'll zip it for now. :)
Thanks for your thoughts Jason,
QuoteMy initial read of Gandhi is 3rd individuated transitioning to 1st spiritual (and that he made it). I do remember learning somewhere in the JWG work that there are very rare cases where Souls accelerate through the stages in a single lifetime as you describe Ari. Rad, Deva, or others, I am wondering if there are additional teachings or distinctions that Rad or Deva might share with us about how to recognize this, and perhaps also a more precise definition of how "rare" this is? 1 in a 1000? 1 in a million? 1 in a generation?
In the meantime, I will offer that I don't think that was the case with Gandhi. My sense is that there is a very strong idealization/projection around him that can lead one to over-estimate his evolutionary condition. I would offer his 10th house moon in Leo, trine to Neptune as an indicator that he could attract such projections, as well as his North Node ruler the Sun being in the 12th house (attracts a lot of projection) and opposite Neptune (therefore as he steps into operationalizing his destiny through the Sun in Libra he attracts the opposition aspect's projective dynamics from Neptune, which is prone to idealization and fantasy, creation of saviors; also particularly in his lifetime he attracted these from the shudras and low-caste ("servants" reference of 6th house Neptune), who designated him a great soul - Mahatma.
That makes a lot of sense.
QuoteI don't see him as having reached 2nd stage spiritual however as he never embraced the lMahatma title nor did he ever to my knowledge offer himself as the "answer" as the 2nd stage spirituals do when they are the peak of their hubris. His extreme statements and arrogance about spiritual principles, such as the recommendations to the Jews to willingly enter the ovens, seem to me more like a relatively-spiritually-inexperienced 3rd stage individuated Soul trying to apply spiritual principles that it does not yet fully understand (the zeal of the convert). His extreme statements and practices around sexuality and spirituality have a similar black-and-white quality and indications of being new to spiritual practice. (Even though he wasn't "new" in terms of the sexuality piece and it seems that finishing up a multiple-lifetimes cycle of sexual experimentation and investigation was completely central to his evolution (Mars/Venus balsamic conjunction in Scorpio conjunct PPP; he did seem sometimes seems to have approached the balsamic conjunction via the polarity phase Gibbous perfectionism though). So, there is arrogance there but I think it is different from the arrogance of the 2nd spiritual.
I love your analysis of this! I've been thinking about this and it resonates strongly. I would still like to reflect further though. In all cases, even if you "only" evolved from third ind to first stage spiritual (and possibly well into first stage spiritual) that is still MORE than the average soul. Most soul's, it seems, only move a bit forward within their current ea state or the transition between one and the next.
Lucius I appreciate what you wrote here,
QuoteThis Pisces age has created, what I consider, the folly of the projection of a 'perfect' divinity upon the human animal. Obviously, Jesus is the prime example - the uses of a scapegoat & that someone else (and outside of ourselves) will 'take us there'. This is hand in hand with the patriarchal heirarchies which I have zero patience for anymore. Yogananda isn't a more 'spiritual' being than any of us - he exemplified where we are all going - where we'll all arrive with our own paths, destinies and desires - he isn't 'better' than us - but, thank god'dess he's here to help (and he would be the first to acknowledge your existence as a spiritual being - just using him as an example)! If you realize everything is naturally 'spiritual' what else is there? The dualistic patriarchal nonsense is so ingrained from millenia of incarnations. I guess all of us here are a tide against it, let's hope.
I'd like to hear if anyone else has perspective on Gandhi's ea state. Once we feel clear about this we'll get started on the analysis.
Ari Moshe
Quote from old MB: "the key words in your question 'or so it seems'.......remember that those in third stage individuated can 'appear' as 'normal' from the point of view of the consensus complete with the costumes of the consensus state. IT IS NOT POSSIBLE to skip from the consensus to the spiritual.......this is of course a violation of the natural law of evolution itself......perhaps the most astounding example that comes to my mind is the guru of yogananda.......yukestwar...until his midlife he was a 'householder' who did what everyone else appeared to do even married...i think he even had a kid........then look what happened......,Jeffrey"
I cannot find the post were it's stated Gandhi is 3rd Indi.- actually, I'm not sure if those are archived? I think it would have been 2006 (?) when I posted about it, etc. - I remember the house/desk I was sitting at.
Also, on the old MB J.WolfGreen mentioned that a person who is in reality 1st individuated could appear 1st stage spiritual, or have elements of that, and mentioned for example, that said person might have a balsamic sun/moon phase - of course, this could apply to any stage. Gandhi does have a waning sun/moon cycle.
His mars/venus is balsamic conjunction - right? Having a brain freeze - the slower moving planet is the one 'applied' to - and Mars is slower than Venus(?).
Hi Lucius, all. Here's the entire context of that quote.
Quote
Hello Jeff
Regarding evolutionary states:
Can the individual parts of ones consciousness/mode of operating be in
more than one evolutionary state at a time/relate to different levels; ie: for
some experiences or relationships you are in 3rd state individuated yet for
other experiences or relationships you are in 2nd state individuated or 1st.
state spiritual?
Would it be more likely that you would be able to move forward from one
evolutionary stage to another ie: 1st state individuated to second state
individuated; and more difficult to move from 3rd stage of one state to 1st
stage of the next ie: 3rd state consensus to 1st state individuated?
Thx!
,rose,[email protected]
Re: evolutionary states,Sunday 26-Nov-2000 13:54:24,,
Hi Rose
a very good question. the answer is no. this is why it is so important to
understand planetary phases and how different psychological archetypes
as corrlelated to the planetary phases i.e. mars/ venus can be in different
states of evolution relative to the phase itself. so in essence any given soul
can be in whatever evolutionry condition i.e. first stage individuated yet
the various planetary phases will be different relative to their own
evolution within the CONTEXT of the actual evolutionary stage that the
person is in. This question refers to what maurice asked in the question before yours.
and this is exactly why a person say in the first stage individuated could
'appear' to manifest something that seemed like a first stage
spiritual.........i.e. maybe their sun and moon are balsamic in this life
relative to their evolutionry condition yet the very essence of the balsmaic
phase is to 'universalize consciousnes'.......so there would be this dimension
within them yet manifesting thru the first stage spiritual.
yes it is much easier to go from the first stage individuated to the second
stage individuated for example than from third stage consensus to first
stage individuated.......
,Jeffrey
skipping individuation,Saturday 25-Nov-2000 10:54:39
HELLO
I wondered if it possible for a soul to grow from third conscensus stage to
spiritual by skipping the individuated. Throoughout History there has
been a lot of cases documented of people living life in conformity to social
costums and then experiencing some spiritual awakening that has
projected them straight to high spiritual awareness. An Individual like
Gandhi for ex. was a yuppie lawyer traveling in his first class train before
it all happened...Or Edgar Cayce was an extremely conservative religious
person who suddenly had vision of spiritual nature beyond conscensus
conservatism.
These people did not go through lifetimes of individuation they got the
truth and skipped the middle stage. or so it seems !
Thanks,Maurice
Re: skipping individuation,Saturday 25-Nov-2000 11:53:33,,
hi maurice
the key words in your question 'or so it seems'.......remember that those in
third stage individuated can 'appear' as 'normal' from the point of view of
the consensus complete with the costumes of the consensus state. IT IS
NOT POSSIBLE to skip from the consensus to the spiritual.......this is of
course a violation of the natural law of evolution itself......perhaps the most
astounding example that comes to my mind is the guru of
yogananda.......yukestwar...until his midlife he was a 'householder' who did
what everyone else appeared to do even married...i think he even had a
kid........then look what happened......,Jeffrey
(http://i853.photobucket.com/albums/ab96/lindatjonson/MohandahGandhi2-1.jpg)
This is a great example chart to study the Aries archetype.
After catching up on a brief history of Gandhi, I have come to the conclusion that he was in the Spiritual evolutionary condition, and possibly in the 3rd stage since his teachings have spread across the globe.
[ I have since changed my mind about this!
] Added later: [ Of course, as a man he was fallible, that is for sure, and the chart shows this, but perhaps his Soul had a deeper mission to fulfill. Certainly the idea of non-violent resistance has captured the attention of the whole world. Was this a personal teaching, or was the evolutionary message coming from a higher place? (Uranus square Neptune) Is not the spirit of man sick and tired of violence?
] He was criticized because of an apparent "foot in mouth disease" indicated by Jupiter new conjunction to Pluto; Aquarius SN; Uranus conjunct MC; Lilith in Aries; Mars opposite Pluto; Mercury skipped steps; the Aries archetype in the chart (unplanned thought/action); perhaps some resistance (Scorpio 1st); and the chart being "paradoxical" (Aries/Libra -- WHY did he make those statements? WHY was he such a virulent agitator in the early years?).
He was a Hindu, and that patriarchally distorted religion contained violence (eg Krishna and the gods plotting wars). He appeared to be operating in an individuated evolutionary condition in the early years, but he could very well have actually been in the spiritual evolutionary condition as the events in his life unfolded to reveal a deeper purpose.
The Mars/Libra archetype is beautifully demonstrated in this chart. The spiritual purpose is described by Neptune Aries 6th (spiritual work); Chiron Aries 6th (healing and purification); Sun Libra 12th (spiritual purpose, universal love, balance); Pluto and Venus in mutual reception --- and all of these archetypes balancing violence with peace.
The Soul was dealing with taking a message or teaching to reach the whole world as indicated by SN Pluto 3rd (message) - natal Pluto 7th (evolutionary intent) - and NN Pluto 9th (teaching). SN Aquarius 4th - ruler Uranus Cancer 9th (conj MC), interfacing with NN Uranus Gemini 8th (powerful transformational message) - illustrates a resistance to tyranny through mass civil disobedience, a philosophy firmly founded upon
ahimsa (non-violence).
The Mars/Pluto phasal relationship is an "opposition" indicating that he had 4 prior lives working on the evolutionary intent. In this chart, we can see the forward momentum (strong angularity); the theme of "liberation" from the past (Aquarius 4th, Indian Independent Movement), doing it "his way" (Pluto/Nodes/Jupiter/Neptune/Chiron all Rx); and being officially honoured as the "Father of the Nation" (Leo 10th).
The 1st house contains the natural archetype of the Mars/Scorpio inconjunct, and so the feeling of "entrapment" was relieved through the NN Mars 9th (expansion, freedom).
With Saturn/Sag/2nd (Natural Laws), he became a "force" for evolutionary change since that house is ruled by Pluto (his Soul's evolutionary intent).
The SN Mars 1st interfaces with that lifetime's Mars 1st, and the NN of Mars 9th. The energy is forward moving, fulfilling his Soul intentions instinctively and expansively.
The skipped steps situation is indicated by SN Mercury Libra 12th (extremes) interfacing with that lifetime's Mercury Scorpio 1st, and the NN Mercury Virgo 11th (liberation and purification). There is also a connection to SN Saturn and SN Pluto in the 3rd house. This could indicate the reasons for the bad rap due to rash statements made throughout his life, and then having to learn humility through the NN Mercury Virgo 11th to purify that area.
The skipped steps were recovered via the NN Leo 10th (ruled by Sun/Libra/12th) conjunct the planetary NN of Neptune, an indicator of a higher mission. The recovery of these skipped steps was to bring balance to an extreme situation by taking an important evolutionary message that inspired movements for civil rights and freedom across the world as shown by NN Saturn, NN Pluto, and NN Jupiter - all conjunct the MC - and note also the NN Venus and NN Neptune in the 10th house.
I wish I had more energy for his chart analysis - I've been posted elsewhere here when I should be working against deadline with another project! And I'll be gathering some thoughts for the Taurus thread. But - first, I trust J.WolfGreen's assessment of his e.state & remember distinctly despairing of myself in reaction!
Aside from that though I don't feel that Gandhi was drawing people toward Source, 'god'dess' or what have you in his life - he wasn't teaching that per se - he was advocating a perspective that was very much a social issue and very much questioning consensus assumptions in his stances. I compare him to J.WolfGreen (who is third spiritual) and Gandhi's dynamic and 'bottom line' isn't the same (in my opinion!). Also, I was under the impression third state spiritual people usually are somewhat 'under the radar' in their lives - not so prominent and in conflict with the 'powers that be'.
Gandhi's an inspiration, just as Einstein, and Carl Jung - but I don't agree with e.state of third spiritual.
The evolutionary states are so difficult - or, at any rate,I find them difficult. I wouldn't mind a thread of famous folks, their states and why they are in those states.
Quote from: Lucius on Apr 15, 2011, 11:46 PMI trust J.WolfGreen's assessment of his e.state & remember distinctly despairing of myself in reaction!
Hi Lucius,
I must have missed this. In what evolutionary state did JWG place Gandhi?
Thanks.
There was a discussion (apparently not on the archived forum) about Gandhi - & either this same post or another I recall being surprised at the assessment of his state. I'm not so much now. Anyway, he was/is considered third individuated (I wish the post was around to reread because I could have not understood - I remember being not the only one initially surprised).
So, I just wanted to add that I don't think his views of Jewish people during the holocaust was indicative of third spiritual, either. I feel that he, ironically, was having the attitude of 'my way or the highway' by saying they should have willingly martyred themselves. It doesn't seem just 'immature' to me, but frankly disgusting. I think a person in the third spiritual state would be expressing compassion with their suffering & reality versus saying 'well, they could have done it this way..' i.e., 'my way', etc.
Quote from: Linda on Apr 15, 2011, 10:53 PMAfter catching up on a brief history of Gandhi, I have come to the conclusion that he was in the Spiritual evolutionary condition, and possibly in the 3rd stage since his teachings have spread across the globe.
I have since changed my mind about this.
As a man he was fallible, that is for sure, and his chart shows this, but perhaps his Soul had a deeper mission to fulfill. Certainly the idea of non-violent resistance has captured the attention of the whole world. Was the evolutionary message coming from a higher place? (Uranus square Neptune) The best I can say about him is that he had the opportunity to rise above/purify his earlier attitudes - perhaps through the NN Mercury Virgo 11th, Neptune/Aries/6th, and the asteroids in the 6th house. However, it is obvious that these same archetypes had been abused earlier on. He humiliated himself a lot in his later years. Bear in mind the cultural conditionings of his time, the gross inequalities of the caste system and his patriarchally-based Hindu religion.
I wasn't aware of what Gandhi said about Jewish people during the holocaust, and I agree with you Lucius, if that is true, it is disgusting - and he could in no way be a 3rd state spiritual soul. The prominence of his position could have attracted people saying nasty things behind his back (Pluto 7th), and no wonder, there is evidence that he said some pretty horrible things.
I just spoke to an old friend of mind whose mother actually encountered Gandhi in the early 20's, just after WWI, at London University, when he was emerging as a rather virulent activist. She didn't admire him. He finally hit on the idea of peaceful resistance and that took off like a rocket.
There had been so much going on with the British Raj - he was a protester - and became an international figure - the holy man - which these days could be eyed with the greatest suspicion and cynicism. Obviously his good parts were glorified out of all proportion.
QuoteThe skipped steps situation is indicated by SN Mercury Libra 12th (extremes) interfacing with that lifetime's Mercury Scorpio 1st, and the NN Mercury Virgo 11th (liberation and purification). There is also a connection to SN Saturn and SN Pluto in the 3rd house. This could indicate the reasons for the bad rap due to rash statements made throughout his life, and then having to learn humility through the NN Mercury Virgo 11th to purify that area.
Hi all,
Reflecting on this over the past weekend I feel that there are many aspects of his life that point to first stage spiritual, and it seems to have progressed towards the end of that stage; and possibly already in the second stage of the spiritual state.
Here is a famous statement from him.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EtWr04MBGYI (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EtWr04MBGYI) This clearly expresses his spiritual integrity and earnest commitment to Truth, God. Clearly outside of the individuated state. The poetry and devotional quality of his words bespeak a spiritual authority and inner knowing. This is beyond the beginning of the first stage spiritual.
I want to point out too that he never tried to put himself in any kind of idealized perfection. As already said here, the projections have come from everyone else! Furthermore, while I'm not suggestiong Gandhi is 3rd stage spiritual, even souls in third stage spiritual do make mistakes.
Here is a quote I found online (source not included for all these quotes: found on this site: http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/m/mohandas_gandhi.html#ixzz1Jf6j5BY6 (http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/m/mohandas_gandhi.html#ixzz1Jf6j5BY6))
"Constant development is the law of life, and a man who always tries to maintain his dogmas in order to appear consistent drives himself into a false position." He made mistakes and was quick to acknowledge them. I could not find anywhere what further comments he may have made about the Jews in the holocaust AFTER his initial statements. With no further information about that, I am not quick to jump to any conclusion. He has also said the following:
"Confession of errors is like a broom which sweeps away the dirt and leaves the surface brighter and clearer. I feel stronger for confession."
and this...
"A principle is the expression of perfection, and as imperfect beings like us cannot practise perfection, we devise every moment limits of its compromise in practice."
His own life reflects that in every regard. Strong adherence to principal. This, in combination with the willingness to be wrong, to make mistakes, seems to denote well into the first stage spiritual or even second stage spiritual. Remember that the spiritual ego of the second stage spiritual does not imply corruption, it implies that the bar is raised for the soul. The arrogance of second stage may have manifested by pointing to his own truth (his principals) to the disregard of what other people's truth are as is appropriate for their actual reality. This may be a version of the finger pointing to self. I do not see any evidence that suggests he was definitely not a second stage spiritual soul.
Also, he was not across the board anti violence, he did recognize the reality of soul's being at different levels. "It is better to be violent, if there is violence in our hearts, than to put on the cloak of nonviolence to cover impotence."
However! The fact of using the word impotence implies a judgement on his part. In truth, there is no reason for him to use that word; each soul is at where they are. This is reflected in the wisdom of any soul that recognizes and appreciates what degree of awareness is possible and not possible for any soul according to the soul's current evolutionary condition. Again, to me this points to latter first stage or second stage spiritual.
From "Autobiography of a Yogi" Chapter 44 Mahatma Gandhi at Wardha.
QuoteSri Yukteswar used to poke gentle fun at the commonly inadequate conceptions of renunciation.
"A beggar cannot renounce wealth," Master would say. "If a man laments: 'My business has failed; my wife has left me; I will renounce all and enter a monastery,' to what worldly sacrifice is he referring? He did not renounce wealth and love; they renounced him!"
Saints like Gandhi, on the other hand, have made not only tangible material sacrifices, but also the more difficult renunciation of selfish motive and private goal, merging their inmost being in the stream of humanity as a whole.
From Yogananda's words, he recognizes an honest authenticity in Gandhi. Definitely beyond even just the beginning of first stage spiritual. I wonder what it meant for yogananda to use the word "saint"? Perhaps Adina, Rose, Rad or someone who is close to the teachings of Yogananda can provide insight on this...
Gandhi's constant experimentation with applying the truth in his life and his personal purifications we know he has done on him self through out his life I feel point to a soul who has definitely been moving through the spiritual state, possibly to the beginning of second stage spiritual.
Ari Moshe
Hi Ari and Jason,
Thank you both for your good analysis of Gandhi's chart.
After reflecting on the evolutionary condition of Gandhi for a couple of days, and after reading your posts, I am flip flopping from 3rd stage Individuated to 2nd stage Spiritual.
Gandhi was a lawyer and political activist, who was the first leader to apply the principle of non-violence in the political field on a large scale when he lead the Indian revolt against the British. He envisioned a world where government, police and armies were non-violent, however, he was not the originator of the principle of non-violence.
In a post-war interview, he said: ".......the Jews should have offered themselves to the butcher's knife." Taking the philosophy of non-violence to this extreme suggests either a state of paradoxical delusion, or incredible faith. This attitude could correlate to the over-emphasis of the Aries archetype in the chart (pushing for peace) highlighted by the full-phase opposition to Pluto.
It was necessary that he purify himself (Neptune Aries 6th) through self-humiliation/crisis/control, so that he could fulfill his purpose in the world (NN Neptune 10th, NN Leo 10th). Mars exactly inconjuncts Neptune, and Virgo/Mercury (skipped steps) rules the 12th house.
My question is, was his cause "spiritual" or "political" - or was there no separation between the two?
His natal Neptune 6th t-squares SN Neptune and NN Neptune. He is coming from SN Aquarius 4th and SN Neptune Aquarius 4th (rebellion, individuation, liberation). Mercury t-squares the Nodes, resolution node NN Leo 10th (political leader)........and this conjuncts the NN Neptune.
His chart is paradoxical, and the paradox is highlighted by Mars and Neptune, the relationship between the self and others, or the self and God.
Hi Linda,
QuoteMy question is, was his cause "spiritual" or "political" - or was there no separation between the two?
Did you listen to the youtube clip I posted on him talking about his spiritual ideals? He actually addressed that question. What specifically do you feel about him would point to the possibility of third stage individuated?
QuoteHis natal Neptune 6th t-squares SN Neptune and NN Neptune. He is coming from SN Aquarius 4th and SN Neptune Aquarius 4th (rebellion, individuation, liberation).
It doesn't square its own nodes. It does square the sn's of Pluto and Saturn in the 3rd and the nn's of Saturn Pluto and Jupiter in the 9th. This definitely points to the confusion between actual reality as it interfaces with his own beliefs and grand ideals of perfection (Neptune 6th). Integrating through his own natal Pluto and Jupiter in the 7th, the evolutionary lesson was understanding other people's actual reality for what it is, as opposed to a formula. And as you and Jason pointed out, his own Mercury in Scorpio in the 1st squaring the nodes. That Mercury is also in a gibbous phase with Pluto - his special sense of purpose linked to communication has also been a form of humiliation by way of being overly harsh and polarized in his relationships. This would DEFINITELY have manifested intensely in his personal relationships. Something worthwhile to look into.
Here's an article that breifly touches upon his relationship with his wife: http://www.jstor.org/pss/4374920 (http://www.jstor.org/pss/4374920)
I'd like to give a shout out to any moderator or someone who feels they can offer some guidance or perspective for this investigation.
(http://i853.photobucket.com/albums/ab96/lindatjonson/MohandahGandhi2-2.jpg)
Quote from: ari moshe on Apr 19, 2011, 08:10 PMQuoteMy question is, was his cause "spiritual" or "political" - or was there no separation between the two?
Did you listen to the youtube clip I posted on him talking about his spiritual ideals? He actually addressed that question.
Hi Ari,
Yes, I listened to the YouTube clip, and, to the Western mind, those were spiritual ideals that appeared to be expressed. Would not most of the Indian population express the same sentiments? He was treated like a spiritual leader in the ashram. Was it a spiritual ashram where meditation took place, or was it more like an office where political strategies were proposed? He tried to channel the devotion of women into the cause that he stood for. As he wrote to Mira, "You will truly serve me by truly serving the cause." This sounds like a political cause taking place in a political establishment.
QuoteQuoteHis natal Neptune 6th t-squares SN Neptune and NN Neptune. He is coming from SN Aquarius 4th and SN Neptune Aquarius 4th (rebellion, individuation, liberation).
It doesn't square its own nodes.
An error on my part.
QuoteIt [Neptune 6th] does square the sn's of Pluto and Saturn in the 3rd and the nn's of Saturn Pluto and Jupiter in the 9th. This definitely points to the confusion between actual reality as it interfaces with his own beliefs and grand ideals of perfection (Neptune 6th).
This is most enlightening. In addition to the skipped steps around communication, he had to address any confusion, deception, delusion, unreality, ambiguity or resistance on his part in his thoughts and teachings, by arriving at the natural truth.
Pluto squaring SN Neptune Aquarius 4th (last phase, using a general orb of 10 deg) can mean transformation/liberation from a confused self-image, dependencies in relationships, resulting in difficult cataclysmic change.
Other difficult aspects to Pluto: Venus/Mars opposite Pluto; Moon square Pluto; Moon square Venus/Mars.......all point to re-identification of his self-image in relationships.
QuoteIntegrating through his own natal Pluto and Jupiter in the 7th, the evolutionary lesson was understanding other people's actual reality for what it is, as opposed to a formula.
Jupiter conjunct Pluto (new phase) describes teachings around peace, harmony, natural law, by taking a new approach or direction, ie incorporating the feminine into his teachings (9th house Cancer).
QuoteAnd as you and Jason pointed out, his own Mercury in Scorpio in the 1st squaring the nodes. That Mercury is also in a gibbous phase with Pluto - his special sense of purpose linked to communication has also been a form of humiliation by way of being overly harsh and polarized in his relationships. This would DEFINITELY have manifested intensely in his personal relationships. Something worthwhile to look into.
His 3rd house is ruled by Jupiter; his 9th house is ruled by Mercury; and his 12th house is ruled by Mercury. So from this, it is obvious that he had to recover the skipped steps with a particular message to teach.
QuoteHere's an article that briefly touches upon his relationship with his wife: http://www.jstor.org/pss/4374920 (http://www.jstor.org/pss/4374920)
From this article, it appears that he aspired toward a self-sufficient relationship, and that could relate to the Individuated or Spiritual condition.
QuoteWhat specifically do you feel about him would point to the possibility of third stage individuated?
Well, I am respecting that JWG must have had good reason to place him in the 3rd stage Individuated. My reasons are Gandhi was a political activist. I think we would need to have more understanding of Indian culture and religion. The Hindu religion can sound very "spiritual" to Westerners, but 75% of Indians are in the Consensus. So how can one tell who is indeed truly spiritual and who is not?
QuoteI'd like to give a shout out to any moderator or someone who feels they can offer some guidance or perspective for this investigation.
Me too. Thanks.
Here's another good article I just found. Linda you made some really good points.
http://www.markshep.com/nonviolence/Myths.html (http://www.markshep.com/nonviolence/Myths.html)
I find that quote 'you will serve me'(...'by serving the cause')the first part - very intriguing - it almost makes me think of the inflation within the 2nd stage spiritual - but, again, I don't see his 'bottom line' being about Source - I see it being a political machination. First of all he references himself - not Source, second his 'cause' is a political one. The fact that it is passive resistance doesn't mean it's 'spiritual' whatsoever - in the context of his (& unfortunately our) times it was revolutionary though.
I do see that he had major issues with listening to others and being respectful of others realities - he pushed himself relentlessly & perhaps because of the 'climate' of India he had projections upon him of being much more 'holy' than he was. Or maybe that, in that time, was how the Indians celebrated their heros/icons - it is a very different culture from the West. Mars/Venus balsamic in Scorpio opposition Pluto/Jupiter shows this is a very driven man - his north node in the 10th Leo and the ruler 12th Libra shows the need for his lessons - some of which he fulfilled admirably others, the personal aspects, I'm not so sure of. He seemed ascetic to a degree that makes me feel he harbored deep guilt, & sado-masochistic issues over - leading me to feel he was 'making amends'.
I'm enjoying the conversation here. I think that it would be good to recognize the differences in consensus realities as Linda points out, but, in general. To also realize, for instance in the US, that the consensus is much more open & accepting of many things versus 50 years ago. Someone meditating or doing yoga isn't necessarily an individuated or spiritual person - for instance. I know people who do these things - but, their goal isn't to unite with the sustainer of all life, but to relieve stress, relax or get in shape. Some one can talk about 'spiritual' things - but, what are their actions? What's the structure of their life? Their bottom line?
I think that he is a good example of the 'flowering' of individual genius that occurs in the 3rd individuated - a flowering that affects the consensus - a new way of looking at things, etc. He is inspirational and contributed greatly to the collective whatever his spiritual state was/is - I don't think anyone would argue that!
I suppose I could contemplate 2nd spiritual - but, overall, it simply doesn't make sense to me.And I think he was too active (visible, combative with the 'powers that be',etc.) and inflated to be 1st spiritual.
Thanks for the dialogue here! :)
QuoteI find that quote 'you will serve me'(...'by serving the cause')the first part - very intriguing - it almost makes me think of the inflation within the 2nd stage spiritual - but, again, I don't see his 'bottom line' being about Source - I see it being a political machination. First of all he references himself - not Source, second his 'cause' is a political one. The fact that it is passive resistance doesn't mean it's 'spiritual' whatsoever - in the context of his (& unfortunately our) times it was revolutionary though.
Lucius, the context of that statement needs to be taken into account. He was speaking to a woman in the Ashram who was infatuated with him. He found that to be a personal distraction and did not want to be worshiped or personally served in anyway. He sent this woman to do work outside of the ashram quite often as it was less uncomfortable for him. That statement was made to address her in particular - if you want to serve me, serve the cause.
Also just so its clear, he himself re-evaluated the use of the term "passive resistance". He concluded that satyagraha is an active path of absolutely adhering to the truth and one's rights and not turning to cowardice in the face of oppression. It was a philosophy that sought the best for both the oppressor and the oppressed. His strong adherence to a political movement whose basis was love for the oppressor was significant of his love for all humanity. I'm not excluding the possibility of third stage individuated, it just doesn't seem to me that his purpose was maximizing his own creative potential to the fullest extent. He never wanted attention, in fact always deflated attention from himself. He also seemed intensely devoted to God.
http://www.easwaran.org/gandhi-the-man-easwaran.html (http://www.easwaran.org/gandhi-the-man-easwaran.html)
page 130 of this book describes Gandhi's daily meditation practice.
Thanks for the clarification on that quote, Ari! Puts it into perspective.
Gandhi's own quote settles it for me:
Gandhi objected when people called him
"a saint trying to be a politician." He said he was instead
"a politician trying to be a saint." I agree with Gandhi's own judgment on this.
QuoteAri said: He concluded that satyagraha is an active path of absolutely adhering to the truth and one's rights and not turning to cowardice in the face of oppression.
This is an amazing way to bring about change. I do believe that this active path is extremely effective for it speaks to the oppressor's conscience, allows courageous action and passive resistance, and acknowledges the Truth.
It was not that Gandhi wanted attention for himself ... instead the Truth itself shone brightly ... and it was the Truth that actually brought about change. He was pointing to the Truth, and not to himself.
In my opinion, Gandhi was being guided by a higher force.
I will change his status now to end of 3rd stage Individuated (political activist) and beginning of 1st stage Spiritual (humility) due to his love for humanity and the Truth.
His was a huge political task ... and it succeeded with Divine Grace.
Hi all, I'd like to continue to focus on working with this chart in light of the Aries archetype.
My sense is we all agree that he is first stage spiritual, Linda you sense that he still may be in transition. So my suggestion is that we start looking at this chart with the premise of him having been new to the spiritual state in this life and keep the general archetype of first stage spiritual in mind as we look at it. Hows that sound?
Ari Moshe
Thank you so much.....
to Ari Moshe and everyone who has participated in this Aries discussion thread.
(I'll be away for a while, but glad to see that the discussion will be continuing here.....)
Great, I'm on travel right now so next week I'll have the chance to work on this chart with whoever is interested. With Love,
Ari Moshe