Aries Archetype Discussion

[Upasika]

One thought I had in thinking about what you said about Pisces being a welcome experience for Aries after its long, arduous journey, was that Pisces is like the hot bath after a long day.  That doesn't mean the day was "in error" and it doesn't mean a new day won't come (beginning at a new level as you described). 

Ellen, that's exactly what I'm meaning !

I'm aware that in framing it this way it may be that I am distorting what you are actually saying. 

No, not in the slightest.

Yet it is important for me to be careful not to use that as a way of minimizing the validity of the cycle itself, of that culmination of rest as somehow suggesting that the cycle itself was in error

To me the cycle and it's culmination are two sides of the same coin, one can't exist without the other, both are equally valid, none in error.

Hope I've made some sense......

certainly, for me anyway.

[Upasika]

Upasika both your posts on the Aries archetypes are really profound, thankyou.

Thank you Tory, I guess it being a pretty interesting topic also helps ...

[Elen]

Hi Upasika,

Projection is such a tricky thing!  Thanks for clarifying!

Best,
Ellen

One thought I had in thinking about what you said about Pisces being a welcome experience for Aries after its long, arduous journey, was that Pisces is like the hot bath after a long day.  That doesn't mean the day was "in error" and it doesn't mean a new day won't come (beginning at a new level as you described). 

Ellen, that's exactly what I'm meaning !

I'm aware that in framing it this way it may be that I am distorting what you are actually saying. 

No, not in the slightest.

Yet it is important for me to be careful not to use that as a way of minimizing the validity of the cycle itself, of that culmination of rest as somehow suggesting that the cycle itself was in error

To me the cycle and it's culmination are two sides of the same coin, one can't exist without the other, both are equally valid, none in error.

Hope I've made some sense......

certainly, for me anyway.

[Elen]

One of the areas of consideration that Ari brought up was the inconjunct between Aries/Virgo.  Here are some thoughts:

In the context of the discussion going on, to me that inconunct can be seen as the crisis between a guilt-inducing belief system that essentially negates flesh (ie, separation of body and spirit) and thus denigrates desire (?), creating anxiety for the Aries archetype.  But this is a crisis that is born out of dysfunction.  

What might the natural crisis be?

Aries is desire, Virgo is purification.  
Aries is fire (tends not to recognize limits), Virgo is earth (all about limits).
Aries is cardinal (initiating action in the world), Virgo is mutable (inward focused, more liminal-like)
Aries is confident (yes?), Virgo is insecure

Some thoughts for consideration......


Ellen

Addition:.. PS Linda, could you explain a little more about what you were thinking about the Aries/Virgo inconjunct?  I don't think I fully understood how you were thinking about that....

[Linda]

Ellen said:  "Linda, could you explain a little more about what you were thinking about the Aries/Virgo inconjunct?  I don't think I fully understood how you were thinking about that...."


Hi Ellen,


I can't remember exactly what I was thinking about the Aries/Virgo inconjunct - brain's going a bit fuzzy - but perhaps we can review the meaning of the inconjunct:


The Inconjunct:  The Most Misunderstood Aspect
(posted by Adina)  
The meaning, the definition, of the inconjunct is to realign your sense of personal identity or ego with a higher will or ego called God, and until you do so you have a crisis equaling the inability to manifest what you sense is a possibility or purpose for your life.  The nature of an inconjunct is to teach humility at an egocentric level.  The way it teaches the humility is to experience a sense of powerlessness or a core sense of inferiority in which you don't feel you're quite ready or good enough to do what your higher mind is suggesting that you can do;  and until the conscious linkage is made with a higher power (we can call that God), you are blocked.  The Virgo inconjunct (150 degrees) creates a feeling of inferiority.  It can equal the archetype of masochism, leading to the sacrificing of one's own ego to a larger whole.  A larger whole can even mean a person's needs.


Rad's Quote:  In the Gibbous phase Virgo inconjunct, the Soul will inwardly feel that it has something special to do in order to help the environment in some way, of being of service to it in order to help it, yet will inwardly feel not ready, good enough, or perfect enough in order to actualize or fulfill it.  Thus, the Soul will find a variety of rational reasons, excuses, of why it will not, can not, do what it feels inwardly drawn to do.  The very nature of this type of inconjunct, in the Gibbous phase, is an archetype of self improvement which implies a conscious awareness of that which needs to be improved for it's own evolutionary reasons.  Thus, this creates a psychological sense of lack, of that which is not 'perfected' and needs to be improved upon.  Typically, this archetype also creates an awareness within the Soul of others who have, or are doing, the same or similar tasks or functions that it feels inwardly drawn to do itself.  This awareness can then reinforce the inner sense of not being ready as the Soul compares itself to these others who are perceived to be more perfect or ready than the Soul itself.  All this occurs in order for the Soul to know or remember that there is a larger force, or God, behind whatever the special task, function, or capacity is that the Soul is aware of within itself.  Thus, the challenge for the Soul is to inwardly align, consciously, with that higher will, or God, so that whatever the task, capacity, or function is is actualized via that conscious alignment.  In essence, to realize that God is the doer, and that the path to 'perfection' occurs one step at a time.


Steve's quote:  In the spiritual evolutionary condition, one will begin accepting the natural imperfections in divinity - we can't be any more perfect that that which created us.  Thus coming to accept the limitations.  That being the bridge back from conditioned Virgo to natural Virgo.


Ellen said:  What I am hearing (and this is where I may be receiving incorrectly, ie, receiving something other than you and others are intending) is that ultimately the answer is exhaustion of all separating desires and re-merging with the divine and that is the end of the process.  To me that implies a judgment about creation.  We have these desires but they are JUST for the purpose of getting back to the divine...(not about co-creating, to give an example of another possibility.)


Linda said:  Having read all your posts, I feel your underlying questioning could relate to the Aries/Virgo inconjunct.  Virgo is on a mission of self-improvement and service to others, while Aries is on a mission of self-discovery which, evolutionarily speaking, will ALWAYS lead it to consider others, as the Libra polarity is built-in to it.  Example:  The 1st stage Spiritual evolutionary condition correlates to Virgo:  and I would imagine that here the Aries/Virgo inconjunct could bring crisis such as your questioning, and this would lead to making necessary adjustments.
 

Aries correlates with a brand new evolutionary cycle, the desire to initiate actions for the purpose of growth and self-discovery.  Yet, Virgo, by the nature of the inconjunct, correlates with deep inner criticism, and will not always feel ready or perfect enough to initiate an intention.  

The Aries archetype correlates with the desire to begin something new.  Yet, Virgo, by way of the inconjunct, may cause one to feel not ready enough or not perfect enough for this new quest.  The inconjunct will create an awareness of others whom are perceived as already achieving that which is desired and to which one is drawn.  The Gibbous phase (containing the inconjunct) will attract stronger and more willful people than oneself, making one feel overwhelmed.  The new desire comes about after a process of deep inner analysis and self-criticism, and could be construed as the next step to make oneself more perfect or a more pure vehicle through which a spiritual purpose can express itself.  

We can also approach this from another perspective:  A desire to be of service and to bring about self-improvement would correlate to the Virgo archetype.  Yet, Aries, could cause one to feel not ready enough or perfect enough.  One may desire to be of service to others, but the warrior instinct or need for freedom may thwart the effort.  Aries is fast/impatient, while Virgo is step-by-step, paying attention to detail.


The crisis point:  The desire to be of service might be challenged or compromised by the desire to instinctively follow a new path.  The egoconcentric orientation of Virgo could be challenged by the egocentric orientation of Aries.  The Virgo assignment of correct work function may be resisted by Aries.  

What compromises/lessons could the Aries/Virgo inconjunct generate?

-  acknowledging larger forces operating in life
-  lessons in humility
-  the need to look for deeper answers
-  changing one's perspective
-  if one can get past the delusive sense of not feeling ready enough, the gibbous phase can lead to correct work function
-  in essence, to realize that God is the doer, and that the path to 'perfection' occurs one step at a time
-  to consciously align with a Higher Will.

Hope some of this is helpful.

[Elen]

Linda,

Amazing!  Completely helpful........  Thank you!  And, with an Aries/Virgo inconjunct as part of both skipped steps and hiding signatures, I am DEFINITELY AWARE of the work you do - the commitment to it that allows genuine depth to come forth!  (And, no, I am not jealous - just inspired!!  And I WILL find my own way there, too!!  lolol!)

One thing that came up for me re: Virgo IN RELATION to Aries: it seems always to be argued that Virgo feels, incorrectly, that it is not yet ready.  In thinking about Aries - and its tendency towards rashness and always onto the next new thing without ever really going deeply into anything - perhaps the Virgo hesitation could be understood as wisdom - a recognition that one can only truly be of service if one has taken the time to master something............ This would be troublesome for Aries, I would think.  And this could explain the failure to really ever manifest........ What would be the solution?  Well, if Aries is about self-discovery, perhaps making the actual commitment to something - to an in-depth, long term relationship with some area of service (this would be incorporating the Scorpio inconjunct - so the yod formation) - could be seen as a path to self-discovery.....And, in terms of 1st spiritual (Virgo), the desire to make such a commitment would come in response to a felt connection with Source and a sense of direction, perhaps, being felt - so ultimately the commitment one is making is to Source........And Source, in turn, is giving Aries a direction - a field in which it can explore to its heart's content (thinking here of the analogy to the 2-year old; the wise parent will provide a safe and contained environment that allows maximum freedom to explore without danger.....)....Deva, in her book, talks about Aries anger as ultimately a force directed inwardly that allows one to break through barriers.  So perhaps in this yod configuration, Aries anger is directed inwardly in response/reaction to the perceived inability to go deeply into anything and thus be of genuine service, and so, with this anger (addition: or maybe it doesn't have to be annger, per se, but just the energy of fire, whether that is anger or not...*), finds a way to break through to a new level (pioneering new ground inwardly..)    Something I've been contemplating........ And feeling it to be a more helpful and in depth way to reflect on the Virgo sense of "lack"/not ready/etc....

* And further, perhaps, one could recognize in the Aries anger the desire that lies beneath it - the desire, in the example above, to go deeply into something, and then use that Arien energy to make it happen...... (this is just an alternative way for me to look at/work with anger......)

Love,
Ellen

[Linda]

Hi Ellen,

One thing that came up for me re: Virgo IN RELATION to Aries: it seems always to be argued that Virgo feels, incorrectly, that it is not yet ready.

Once Virgo feels ready, and done the necessary inner work (purpose of the Gibbous phase) of attainment of humility...and alignment with a Higher Will....then there's no hesitation in carrying out the correct work function.....fired and powered by Aries!  

It's also very important to remember that Aries is carrying out the desires of the Soul.  If suddenly one is instinctively lead to follow a new direction, I would say that one should investigate, and allow oneself to be moved along (evolution).  The Aries/Virgo inconjunct is actually quite a complementary aspect.

In thinking about Aries - and its tendency towards rashness and always onto the next new thing without ever really going deeply into anything - perhaps the Virgo hesitation could be understood as wisdom - a recognition that one can only truly be of service if one has taken the time to master something............

There is wisdom in both Aries and Virgo.  Aries is following a directive from the Soul, while Virgo is correlating to necessary inner criticism or self-analysis...and the combination of the two leads to surrender and then to natural alignment with a Higher Will.

And, in terms of 1st spiritual (Virgo), the desire to make such a commitment would come in response to a felt connection with Source and a sense of direction, perhaps, being felt - so ultimately the commitment one is making is to Source........And Source, in turn, is giving Aries a direction - a field in which it can explore to its heart's content

That's well put.  I also feel the Aries/Virgo inconjunct allows one to feel something other than the self, or the self wishing to be of service........the combination goes beyond both archetypes.........so that the Source is recognized and felt..........and this connection with Source then brings about transcendence of all the distorted qualities of both.......and this is what actually powers the inconjunct.

Deva, in her book, talks about Aries anger as ultimately a force directed inwardly that allows one to break through barriers.

It takes commitment to work for the Source and follow its guidance that will pacify the Aries spirit or give it direction, and will keep Virgo busy with the correct work function.  Within that relationship with Source, freedom is given to Aries to break new ground (and a healthy kind of anger or energy can inspire that) which then becomes part of the work (and energy can be the fuel here too).....and all of this leads to exactly where the Soul is meant to go and the work it needs to do (Pisces).

And further, perhaps, one could recognize in the Aries anger the desire that lies beneath it - the desire, in the example above, to go deeply into something, and then use that Arien energy to make it happen...... (this is just an alternative way for me to look at/work with anger......)

That anger can point one in a new direction that will lead to other opportunities for the use of the inconjunct.  

(Ellen, would you like to host the Cancer thread?  )

[Elen]

Hi Ellen,

One thing that came up for me re: Virgo IN RELATION to Aries: it seems always to be argued that Virgo feels, incorrectly, that it is not yet ready.

Linda,

Thank you, always, for your thoughtful response.


Once Virgo feels ready, and done the necessary inner work (purpose of the Gibbous phase) of attainment of humility...and alignment with a Higher Will....then there's no hesitation in carrying out the correct work function.....fired and powered by Aries!  

This makes sense and is very helpful for me to hear someone say.  I have never experienced this perspective being acknowledged, but instead the encouragement of Virgo to just be willing to do something - to take a chance.  If, for whatever reasons, the inner work (as you so clearly identify) has not been able to be done, then I feel that it is quite right and wise of Virgo to hold off.  I would like to see this perspective and truth honored more in the discussions of Virgo, generally in the world.  To me it would convey trust (Scorpio), which would be very helpful for Virgo, and thus facilitate that inward journey and thus, ultimately, the NATURALLY fired (Aries) takeoff in the world in terms of service.


It's also very important to remember that Aries is carrying out the desires of the Soul.  If suddenly one is instinctively lead to follow a new direction, I would say that one should investigate, and allow oneself to be moved along (evolution).  The Aries/Virgo inconjunct is actually quite a complementary aspect.
I actually agree with this.  I was being a little harsh on Aries in my post.  Indeed, I think the Aries propensity to hop from thing to thing can really facilitate Virgo insofar as it gives Virgo exposure to different things until the right thing is hit on - and then I think the journey inward can begin, once that is found......And that is when life TRULY begins! Thank you for making this point so clear.

In thinking about Aries - and its tendency towards rashness and always onto the next new thing without ever really going deeply into anything - perhaps the Virgo hesitation could be understood as wisdom - a recognition that one can only truly be of service if one has taken the time to master something............

There is wisdom in both Aries and Virgo.  Aries is following a directive from the Soul, while Virgo is correlating to necessary inner criticism or self-analysis...and the combination of the two leads to surrender and then to natural alignment with a Higher Will.
Agreed that there is wisdom in both.  And, as I said above, I was being unfair to Aries.  I was wanting to make the point, in response to what I have always felt about the tendency of people to want to push Virgo some, that Virgo hesitation might not be at all a fault of the sign, but rather may be an expression of wisdom that has not yet been fully understood because Virgo herself has not yet understood what is missing (until, with Aries' help, she stumbles upon it...)

And, in terms of 1st spiritual (Virgo), the desire to make such a commitment would come in response to a felt connection with Source and a sense of direction, perhaps, being felt - so ultimately the commitment one is making is to Source........And Source, in turn, is giving Aries a direction - a field in which it can explore to its heart's content

That's well put.  I also feel the Aries/Virgo inconjunct allows one to feel something other than the self, or the self wishing to be of service........the combination goes beyond both archetypes.........so that the Source is recognized and felt..........and this connection with Source then brings about transcendence of all the distorted qualities of both.......and
Sorry....... my computer sometimes eats words!!!  What I was wanting to say is that what you have written here is very insightful for me, especially the part about the Aries/Virgo inconjunct allowing the self to feel itself wishing to be of service...... very interesting.......
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Deva, in her book, talks about Aries anger as ultimately a force directed inwardly that allows one to break through barriers.

It takes commitment to work for the Source and follow its guidance that will pacify the Aries spirit or give it direction, and will keep Virgo busy with the correct work function.  Within that relationship with Source, freedom is given to Aries to break new ground (and anger or energy can inspire that) which then becomes part of the work (and energy can be the fuel here too).....and all of this leads to exactly where the Soul is meant to go and the work it needs to do (Pisces).

And further, perhaps, one could recognize in the Aries anger the desire that lies beneath it - the desire, in the example above, to go deeply into something, and then use that Arien energy to make it happen...... (this is just an alternative way for me to look at/work with anger......)

That anger can point one in a new direction that will lead to other opportunities for the use of the inconjunct.
I appreciate the wisdom that comes from your experience.  I have wrestled a lot with anger in my life and the further I go along the further I feel/experience that anger is not a path that works for me (but I appreciate and respect that it does for others...).  I am not saying that I desire to suppress anger or to be in denial of it.  But for me when I experience anger, I am aware, or have become aware, that in my case, the energy is damaging to my body - and my being, actually.  So my habitual response to anger has come to be one of self-nurturance.  So anger helps me, but I think in a different way than the one you have described here....Perhaps not, though.  Perhaps for you, too, in it pointing you in a new direction, that awareness provides you with the ability to be self-nurturing........
(Ellen, would you like to host the Cancer thread?  )
Yes, Linda.  I should be able to commit to that and I would appreciate the opportunity.  I move at the end of the month but it doesn't look like we'll be getting to the Cancer thread before that......... (a bit devilish of you, eh?!  )

[Taf]

DARN!... It STILL feels to me that there is an intrinsic judgement here re: creation.  I am assuming that to exhaust all separating desires is to be finished with incarnation/creation.  Linda pointed out the Aries/Virgo inconjunct and what has arisen for me with that is the whole guilt complex associated with that archetype and the denigration of the body (and creation) associated with it through the Judeo-Christian connection.  If the equation were: inhabiting-->exhausting-->inhabiting again at a new level...... I wouldn't feel that sense of judgement being made.... What I am hearing (and this is where I may be receiving incorrectly, ie, receiving something other than you and others are intending) is that ultimately the answer is exhaustion of all separating desires and remerging with the divine and that is the end of the process.  To me that implies a judgement about creation.  We have these desires but they are JUST for the purpose of getting back to the divine...(not about co-creating, to give an example of another possibility.)  The other question that I think needs to be asked that might help shed some light is: what is the purpose of evolution?  Aries, as being in a continuous state of becoming, is about evolution.  Our desires propel us evolutionarily speaking...

Well, this may just go round and round so I understand if you would prefer to just let this question sit as is...... I am not SETTLED, but I feel that I have a much greater understanding of where the sticking point is for me, and perhaps that's the best that can be accomplished!

Best wishes,
Ellen

Yet it is important for me to be careful not to use that as a way of minimizing the validity of the cycle itself, of that culmination of rest as somehow suggesting that the cycle itself was in error...... That's the crux of it for me - how to reconcile both.........

Ellen,

besides the great dialogue happening on this thread, Dane Rudhyar's book Rhythm of Wholeness supplies a beautifully formulated, spiritual answer to the above.  Rudhyar, as you probably know, was a great influence on JWG as has been stated various times (one such place is the dedication in JWG's Uranus book.  

ROW was the culmination of Rudhyar's lifelong works (and yet is not "astrology") and within it is an answer to what you are asking that JWG maybe doesn't particularly provide within the confines of EA.  The reason it may not be implied in EA is not because it doesn't exist or that JWG wasn't aware of such concepts, but from my point of view is because it was more practical for the purposes of EA and for humanity at this time to stop with the hierarchy of the 3rd Stage Spiritual and the one final desire to merge with, or return to, the Source.  EA is extremely relevant and beautiful especially in its capacities for evolving the minds and Souls of those within the Individuated Stages.  ROW is more metaphysically conceived with the "Spiritual stages" of evolution in mind and at this point of evolution is mostly effective as an outline of the whole of being, within which something like EA can operate without such fears implied by an "ending" of evolution or "a minimizing of the validity of the cycle itself."

Having said such things, I must say that I don't necessarily think that JWG ever precisely stated that evolution ends with a re-merging with the Divine, even if it is easy to be read in such a manner.  My impression was that human form eventually arrives at one desire: to know its Source.  The Divine, God/Godess, should not be thought of as a place or as an anthropomorphic being of absolute stillness, but more as a culmination of one extreme of an all-encompassing and perpetual cycle.  A cycle implies two opposite yet complementary forces in operation as a whole.  The Source, therefore, is present at all times of evolution as the current relationship of the two forces.  If that relationship stands at say 60/40 in the present phase of evolution - in Rudhyar's terms the principle of Multiplicity being the 60 in this example (which in human form correlates to the desire to separate from Source) and the principle of Unity at 40 (in human terms the desire to return to Source) - then the Source is present as said equation.  It's as though we are all, as the current ratio or relationship of the two forces, culminating toward a unified concentration of Source, a sort of 1/99 ratio, which will then reverse toward a separating multiplication of that Source in a new great cycle due to an inevitable (because there are two forces or aspects of being) "failed" 1 percent.

The 60/40 example of a constantly evolving and revolving ratio would also not mean that the desire for separation was a "stronger" force at that time, the strength is relative to which force is ascending.

warmly and humbly,
taf

[Elen]

DARN!... It STILL feels to me that there is an intrinsic judgement here re: creation.  I am assuming that to exhaust all separating desires is to be finished with incarnation/creation.  Linda pointed out the Aries/Virgo inconjunct and what has arisen for me with that is the whole guilt complex associated with that archetype and the denigration of the body (and creation) associated with it through the Judeo-Christian connection.  If the equation were: inhabiting-->exhausting-->inhabiting again at a new level...... I wouldn't feel that sense of judgement being made.... What I am hearing (and this is where I may be receiving incorrectly, ie, receiving something other than you and others are intending) is that ultimately the answer is exhaustion of all separating desires and remerging with the divine and that is the end of the process.  To me that implies a judgement about creation.  We have these desires but they are JUST for the purpose of getting back to the divine...(not about co-creating, to give an example of another possibility.)  The other question that I think needs to be asked that might help shed some light is: what is the purpose of evolution?  Aries, as being in a continuous state of becoming, is about evolution.  Our desires propel us evolutionarily speaking...

Well, this may just go round and round so I understand if you would prefer to just let this question sit as is...... I am not SETTLED, but I feel that I have a much greater understanding of where the sticking point is for me, and perhaps that's the best that can be accomplished!

Best wishes,
Ellen

Yet it is important for me to be careful not to use that as a way of minimizing the validity of the cycle itself, of that culmination of rest as somehow suggesting that the cycle itself was in error...... That's the crux of it for me - how to reconcile both.........

Ellen,

besides the great dialogue happening on this thread, Dane Rudhyar's book Rhythm of Wholeness supplies a beautifully formulated, spiritual answer to the above.  Rudhyar, as you probably know, was a great influence on JWG as has been stated various times (one such place is the dedication in JWG's Uranus book.  

ROW was the culmination of Rudhyar's lifelong works (and yet is not "astrology") and within it is an answer to what you are asking that JWG maybe doesn't particularly provide within the confines of EA.  The reason it may not be implied in EA is not because it doesn't exist or that JWG wasn't aware of such concepts, but from my point of view is because it was more practical for the purposes of EA and for humanity at this time to stop with the hierarchy of the 3rd Stage Spiritual and the one final desire to merge with, or return to, the Source.  EA is extremely relevant and beautiful especially in its capacities for evolving the minds and Souls of those within the Individuated Stages.  ROW is more metaphysically conceived with the "Spiritual stages" of evolution in mind and at this point of evolution is mostly effective as an outline of the whole of being, within which something like EA can operate without such fears implied by an "ending" of evolution or "a minimizing of the validity of the cycle itself."

Having said such things, I must say that I don't necessarily think that JWG ever precisely stated that evolution ends with a re-merging with the Divine, even if it is easy to be read in such a manner.  My impression was that human form eventually arrives at one desire: to know its Source.  The Divine, God/Godess, should not be thought of as a place or as an anthropomorphic being of absolute stillness, but more as a culmination of one extreme of an all-encompassing and perpetual cycle.  A cycle implies two opposite yet complementary forces in operation as a whole.  The Source, therefore, is present at all times of evolution as the current relationship of the two forces.  If that relationship stands at say 60/40 in the present phase of evolution - in Rudhyar's terms the principle of Multiplicity being the 60 in this example (which in human form correlates to the desire to separate from Source) and the principle of Unity at 40 (in human terms the desire to return to Source) - then the Source is present as said equation.  It's as though we are all, as the current ratio or relationship of the two forces, culminating toward a unified concentration of Source, a sort of 1/99 ratio, which will then reverse toward a separating multiplication of that Source in a new great cycle due to an inevitable (because there are two forces or aspects of being) "failed" 1 percent.

warmly and humbly,
taf

Taf,

Thank you so much.  This helps me a ton!  Yes, I am familiar with Dane Rudhyar but am not sure I realized how much of an influence he was on JWG.  I have yet to get a copy of the Uranus book but have been feeling more and more lately that I would really like to find a copy....... Also, I am aware of and have read a number of Rudhyar books but was not aware of Rhythm of Wholeness.  From what you have written here, it looks to hold many answers for me with regard to this discussion in particular and it is extremely helpful for me to hear you talk of it in the context of EA (ie, that, in a sense, EA is simply focuses on a different slice of the perspective...THAT is amazingly helpful!)

It is also very helpful for me to hear you say that you do not believe JWG ever explicitly said evolution ends with a merging with the Divine.  Helpful because I feel that a lot of what I have been grappling with here (and on this MB generally) is/are my own projections into those very holes of "not explicitly stated".  I appreciate yours and everyone's willingness to have and allow these discussions and for the tremendous gentleness and kindness that is offered.

With gratitude,
Ellen

[Linda]

Ellen said:  I appreciate the wisdom that comes from your experience.  I have wrestled a lot with anger in my life and the further I go along the further I feel/experience that anger is not a path that works for me (but I appreciate and respect that it does for others...).  I am not saying that I desire to suppress anger or to be in denial of it.  But for me when I experience anger, I am aware, or have become aware, that in my case, the energy is damaging to my body - and my being, actually.  So my habitual response to anger has come to be one of self-nurturance.  So anger helps me, but I think in a different way than the one you have described here....Perhaps not, though.  Perhaps for you, too, in it pointing you in a new direction, that awareness provides you with the ability to be self-nurturing........


Hi Ellen,

I certainly was not saying that anger is a path to be followed.  Mine is a path of peace and equanimity above all else nurtured by Cancer energies.

Please see the "Transits" thread where I and others have spoken about the constructive use of anger.

Deva's Quote:  It is important to understand that anger can be projected into external situations that are perceived as the cause of the limitations instead of understanding that the increasing desire to change existing life circumstances is a reflection of the desire to create forward momentum in evolutionary growth, and to use anger in a constructive way to create the necessary changes that must be made at this time.

I was talking about the energy of initiation, spirit, fire, instinct, spontaneity, unplanned action, when one's interest is captured, and a fresh new direction beckons..............  I had meant a healthy kind of anger that motivates one to break through limitations.

Anyway, now that the discussion has moved to anger......

"Deva, in her book, talks about Aries anger as ultimately a force directed inwardly that allows one to break through barriers."

How does one break through these barriers?  Felt anger is to be processed.  We can only come back to what we're feeling in our own bodies.  All the information is contained within us.  It's not going to be necessarily resolved out there, or by pointing the finger out there.   It's going to be resolved with us first.  The conscious mind is not part of this - we can't solve problems through the mind - because it's limited.  What needs to heal is the unconscious patterns through processing emotions and releasing what is stored in the body.  It's very important to actually clear what is stored in the body.

[Elen]

Hi Linda,

So very sorry to have conveyed the impression that I saw you as saying you felt anger was a legitimate path to be followed for you.  I fully appreciate you as someone who follows the path of peace and equanimity - it is evident in your every post and in your very being...  Please know that that wasn't my intention to communicate that!  I have struggled for many years with the whole notion of constructive use of anger and that is what I was responding to - sort of thinking out loud in response to your post.... In my own life it has been very easy for me to get caught up in anger and rage and, having had that experience, it (anger/rage) has been something I have spent a lot of time thinking about and trying to find healthy ways of expression in response.  I see that other people are able to experience anger and respond with tremendous constructiveness.  Look at Gandhi.  Look at the suffragists.  Look at Martin Luther King, Jr. and Nelson Mandela.  Perhaps the comparison can be made to alcohol.  Some people can drink it in small amounts and enjoy benefit.  Others can't.  If they drink any, they always end up drinking to excess and ruining their lives.  So, if they are fortunate, they learn that they can't drink at all.  For me, anger/rage is like that...... But I understand that anger is something that everyone feels and that each person finds their own healthy ways to respond to/work with it.  I sincerely hope that this makes sense.

Peace and well wishes, always,
Ellen

PS When you talk about clearing what is stored in your body, is this what you mean by anger sometimes being the very thing that points the way to a new direction?

(I am needing to study for a certification exam I am taking on Friday.  So if I don't respond for a day or 2, that is why, but I am hoping to be able to spend some time here..... Just been playing hookie a little too long from this other thing needing my attention!)

[Elen]

Ellen said:  I appreciate the wisdom that comes from your experience.  I have wrestled a lot with anger in my life and the further I go along the further I feel/experience that anger is not a path that works for me (but I appreciate and respect that it does for others...).  I am not saying that I desire to suppress anger or to be in denial of it.  But for me when I experience anger, I am aware, or have become aware, that in my case, the energy is damaging to my body - and my being, actually.  So my habitual response to anger has come to be one of self-nurturance.  So anger helps me, but I think in a different way than the one you have described here....Perhaps not, though.  Perhaps for you, too, in it pointing you in a new direction, that awareness provides you with the ability to be self-nurturing........


Hi Ellen,

I certainly was not saying that anger is a path to be followed.  Mine is a path of peace and equanimity above all else nurtured by Cancer energies.

Please see the "Transits" thread where I and others have spoken about the constructive use of anger.

Deva's Quote:  It is important to understand that anger can be projected into external situations that are perceived as the cause of the limitations instead of understanding that the increasing desire to change existing life circumstances is a reflection of the desire to create forward momentum in evolutionary growth, and to use anger in a constructive way to create the necessary changes that must be made at this time.

I was talking about the energy of initiation, spirit, fire, instinct, spontaneity, unplanned action, when one's interest is captured, and a fresh new direction beckons..............  I had meant a healthy kind of anger that motivates one to break through limitations.
I will spend some time reading the transits thread this weekend after my exam.  I think I am hung up on the word "anger".  To me, I would not think to assign the word "anger" to what you are describing here.  Certainly this is Aries, though....  I'm sure we will find our way to a common understanding in time..............

Love,
Ellen


Anyway, now that the discussion has moved to anger......

"Deva, in her book, talks about Aries anger as ultimately a force directed inwardly that allows one to break through barriers."

How does one break through these barriers?  Felt anger is to be processed.  We can only come back to what we're feeling in our own bodies.  All the information is contained within us.  It's not going to be necessarily resolved out there, or by pointing the finger out there.   It's going to be resolved with us first.  The conscious mind is not part of this - we can't solve problems through the mind - because it's limited.  What needs to heal is the unconscious patterns through processing emotions and releasing what is stored in the body.  It's very important to actually clear what is stored in the body.

[Elen]

Oh, I see what I said!  "Anger is not a path that works for me........"

I was thinking of that in the sense of what I read Deva saying - that anger can be a force that is directed inwardly to clear blocks......."  Does this help to clarify?  Let me know!

[Linda]

When you talk about clearing what is stored in the body, is this what you mean by anger sometimes being the very thing that points the way to a new direction?

No, that's not what I meant.  What I meant was that everyone needs to find their own personal way of releasing/dealing with their own personal anger when it arises.  This may or may not lead to a new direction.  

Regarding Mars in the context of a "new direction," good examples of the constructive use of anger can be found in the Transits thread where several members have spoken of personal experiences where anger symbolized a completely new direction for them.  And of course transiting Mars can reveal and trigger the dynamics for evolutionary change.

Love, Peace & Equanimity
Linda