4th House 10th House

[Dhyana]

When I am looking at a chart for someone, and I want to get really in tune with their relationship to their mother specifically-- other than the moon, and aspects to that moon, and house with Cancer, do I look at the 4th house cusp?

I ask this basic question because I have also heard that mother can be represented by the 10th house cusp (interchanging).

This is something that has thrown me into confusion time and time again.
Is mother on the 4th and father on the 10th?? Is father sometimes on the 4th and mother sometime 10th?-- do they interchange?? does it depend on the gender of the native??etc etc.

I have read different opinions on this, they all seem to make some sense,  and I am still not sure.

And even when I look to my own chart for clues, ( I have Gemini 4 and Sag10)-- Well, both my parents had both those archetypes going on so strongly, I can't correlate it
--I can see my mom on 4 or 10, and same with my father --So that doesnt clear it up either ---Hmmm??


Might someone help me clarify this 4th / 10th -Mother/Father, through the EA paradigm?

And maybe give an example or two?

Thanks
Dhyana

[Stacie]

Hi Dhyana,

The 4th house, cancer, moon will correlate to the parental figure..mother OR father...who predominantly served in the role of nurturing emotional security, emotional bonding/proximity, emotional/personal relating, etc in the upbringing.  

10th house, saturn, capricorn correlates to the parental figure..mother or father..who most reflected the role of authority..sociological responsibility..emulation of emotional maturity in the context of relating (there's a better way to say that last one..can't find it now), etc.

Traditionally 4th house has been considered to represent the mother and the 10th house the father.  But as we know, one size does not fit all.  Just because a woman's physiology permits her to give birth to a baby does not mean that her inner nature is going to be oriented to emotional bonding, nurturing, etc  over expressing/actualizing a role of authority, emotional maturation, sociological focus, etc within the family structure.  And of course, vice versa for males.  

Both roles archetypically serve a vital function in the imprinting and ongoing development of our consciousness, and those roles are fully interchangeable...so as we like to say around here, observation/correlation..  

Stacie

[Dhyana]

Thanks Stacie. I appreciate you responding to this-- I was waiting... I thought a moderator might answer, but sometimes that doesn't happen when a lot of other busy things are going on here. --which I understand...

So really, thanks so much for stepping in and helping me with this.

I was reading something totally unrelated to this topic on here, and just so happens that
I ran into the answer from a moderator anyhow, LOL. (love when those kinds of things happen)

I thought I would post what I found from Rad from the thread topic about Susan Boyle, in the event anyone new may be searching the 4/10 house -Mother/Father.
It is a good confirmation to what you wrote Stacie. Again, Thanks!

RAD WROTE:The 4th/10th dynamic/ archetype of parents .... mother/ father .. is really, in the end, a cultural issue and related to different times in history. For example some cultures going back in time had the men nurse the babies: they were called 'brood males'. They developed the capacity to even produce milk through their breasts.  And these males then served as the parent that did the daily upbringing and supplied the child's daily needs, etc. In other words, from the point of view of the patriarchal form of reality the 'roles' were reversed. So what it comes down too is the issue of 'gender assignment' which is a function of the 4th/ 10th House/ Cancer/Capricorn archetypes. And the gender assignment is a function of whatever culture/time in history that we could look at: what is then 'expected' by way of norms for what it means to be a male or female and the 'roles' therein.
 On the other hand the 4th House and Cancer will always correlate to the early upbringing of any child all the time, and the general environment that the child grows up within. This will also include the emotional environment and the types of emotional experiences that the child has as a result relative to the parents own reality, and what they are able to provide. The 10th House will always correlate to the type of culture that a child in born into and thus all the social taboos, laws, norms, expectations that serve as the conditioning to that child's sense of 'reality'.
 So of course it's possible for a child to have parents that PROVIDE BOTH ROLES, it's possible for a child to have a mother who primarily does the daily emotional needs of the child while the father provides for the material needs of the child/ family / mother, and it's possible for a SINGLE PARENT to do both.
 So, in the end, the 4th / 10th, Capricorn/ Cancer is not the black and white of one equaling the father, and the other being the mother.

[Stacie]

great, and I'm glad you found Rad's previous comments on the topic.  thanks for reposting it.

[Lia]

Hi Dhyana,

I thought I share some of my thoughts regarding your question;  the moon, cancer, 4th house archetype essentially correlates to our self awareness in the body on a basic emotional level. That is the so called the "˜ego' but really what it is is how we emotionally identify ourselves how we feel as "˜me' as a being that knows it exists and we know that it is "˜I'.
This can never originate from the "˜father' simply because it comes out of a womb of a woman. Moon, cancer, 4th house.  The physical development of the embryo already have emotions and that is part of the foundation of the "˜ego' the emotional conditioning starts in the womb and creates the basis on which the new baby will develop its emotional relatedness to the "˜world' around it; including everything and everyone outside of itself. It does not matter who will provide for the baby once it's born - from the point of view of the baby all it matters if the needs will be met - or not.

These needs are moon, cancer 4th house. HOW those needs will be provided for is 10th house, saturn, capricorn. Both parents (in our world there usually are two, in different ancient times there were no nuclear family nor one particular father figure rather a group of people within which the biological mother was backed up by several so called "˜mother and father' figures who delivered the care all together. The moon will always correlate to both the womb and the concrete early life experiences as well as to the mother and the individual emotional perception of itself. Why? Because the separation from the mother's emotions/perceptions/feelings etc. does not happen all at once, there is a period starting at the womb while it is all intermingled. From the baby's point of view the mother simply "˜part of itself' part of its existence and relative to him/her they are "˜one'. The baby feels everything the mother feels etc. etc. so there is no real separation. After birth this separation starts, but it takes a long while until the new born baby goes through the transition of separating itself as an individual being from its mother AND its overall environment .  For at first it all feels just "˜one' it all feels like "˜itself' . How it "˜feels' is always the moon. The particular birth and the early family environment is the 4th house, and so is the soul current life lessons about it's own evolutionary self related (or if we like egocentric) development, the lessons lie wherein. Cancer on the other hand - wherever it falls in the chart and whatever may fall into it - is the indicator of HOW the soul has been trying to develop these self related lessons and how it attempted and will still attempt to develop its own egocentric emotional security. Moon will always rule cancer so we can see the correlation as how any current womb and early childhood environment will set forth the continuation of the ongoing lesson from the point of view of the self as an incarnated emotional being.
The only thing that is gender related is the mother in order to give birth"¦.it has to have a womb for that. But anything else is totally open - for example today there are surrogate mothers who neither biologically related to nor will give any nurturing to the child, yet still there will be a womb experience which will be the foundation of the to be born child's emotional conditioning for life.
So point being, the polarity, saturn, capr. 10th house will always DEFINE the time and space circumstances (including but not exclusive to the social circumstances) in other words there must be always a REALITY SETTINGS within which everything will take place. That realitiy indeed have been defined for long by male figures due to the patriarchal order, i.e. we usually have an identified father who according to patriarchal tradition was the "˜bread winner' etc. etc. But in essence we need to have a setting of reality within which we can exist (or not!) within the world and our mother, family care takers etc. are part of that reality in some ways. So these two will always interact and one can not exist without the other.

If and when the reality setting is the "˜nuclear' family like what you are talking about i.e. you have a father and a mother they TOGETHER created some sort of reality (presumably shared) within which you were born and brought up. The emotional expect of that reality is your 4th house, how you feel about it is your moon, what you learnt from your childhood emotionally is also the moon, what you need to learn continuously all your life from this point of view is your 4th house and what you really develop and change gradually while ALL this happens is cancer.
The father in our world (nuclear families etc.) correlates to saturn, the 10th house and capr. simply because the SET OF REALITY in which we live these times usually includes a father figure (or the absence of it). In our reality setting it is usually the "˜next' person we came to "˜know' after the mother - the mother to whom we are doing the opposite, instead of getting to "˜know' her we are getting to know that she is "˜not us' so we actually unlearn something. As we unlearn the mother, what occurs to us is OURSELVES. For if the mother is not "˜us' than who the heck it is that we are left with? That's the self, born and separated from that it thought was a "˜part of'.  When we are born we "˜are' the whole world.  Nothing exists just "˜us'. So from there to actually learn that it is not the case is not easy, so babies tend to cry a bit before they learn to laugh.  Learning about the set of reality within which we exist usually starts with the father for he represents the "˜something else' than strictly ourselves. Of course the mother too will "˜grow' into that category by time but again that's an opposite direction of learning. Of course both mother and father can provide us with emotional security so (if they present) they both add to the overall home environment  (4th house) and they are both part of the overall realitiy settings (10th house) within which we exists in the larger environment so they both condition us.
Our conditioning has two major parts: one is how we emotionally feel as "˜who we are' relative to ourselves and how we emotionally relate to all other people who are not "˜us' and not a part of our most immediate emotional environment  (family if we like to call it that way) How we feel about other people at large and how we emotionally relate to them (society) symbolised by saturn, and of course it rules capricorn. Wherever it falls in to the chart and planets etc. wherein correlates to our ongoing evolution from the point of view opposite to the egocentric; that is being a social being being a part of a larger social whole other people etc. So from the point of view of social  responsibility based on our personal attitude and perception of other people outside of ourselves. This of course defines what kind of reality structure are we perceiving as an individual within the whatever social context we born into and of course we bring these attitudes from prior lives.
Thus evolution to proceed the 10th house always symbolises the current life lessons from the social point of view (as the polarity of the 4th house the egocentric point of view) The 10th house correlates to the current life social lessons that the soul set forth which then adds to the ongoing lessons symbolised by capricorn ruled by saturn.

Inclusive but not exclusive of the "˜gender assignment' within societies and families as this area as well as many other areas (like race, social class etc etc.) is a part of the overall social reality and definitions limitations norms etc. that the overall social reality consists - that other people outside of ourselves set in motion; which either help or hinder our own personal  perception or "˜individual set of reality' which of course is our own perception of the social reality around us.
So the biological mother correlates to the moon, the biological father correlates to saturn, but the actual persons who happen to be our mother and father are far more than their biological gender, they too are souls with feminine and masculine within.
With a gemini 4th house the emotional security was aimed within diversity, adjusting to different circumstances;  so more than likely your parents both fulfilled sometimes this sometimes that role. What I think is really important to remember is that: the only thing  you can unravel from your chart is the impact of what they MADE on you - and that isn't necessarily how they were or are. For what something meant or means to you is not equal to how they are; it equals to the interaction from YOUR point of view with your own individual ingredients  as their child.

Hope this makes sense?

Lia

[Dhyana]

Thank you Lia! 

-- for taking the time to write that out for me. I truly appreciate that.

The main reason I was asking, was not so much to identify that in my chart, per se,
but because I am working on a clients chart and I am trying to understand and then
communicate to them the nature of the relationship to their mother.

Your post is a good reference for me. Thank you so very much again.

Lovingly,
Dhyana

[Lia]

Hi Dhyana,

Glad it made sense to you...
If your intention is as you said above I would suggest to approach the subject in a way that your client's relationship to their mother is essentially symbolic to their ongoing lesson in the area of personal self image...the 4th house (from it's beginning to the end of the house and anything that may fall into it) will correlate to what the soul programmed to worked on for this life...the moon itself will correlate to how they perceive themselves  - this of course is originating from womb and birth experience and the actual early mother/child experience whatever that maybe with the actual mother but all that is the 'setting the scene' for the already in place self image issues (moon) that the soul carries forward, so that it can "˜pick it up"˜ exactly where it left it before. Then look at where cancer hits the chart and if there is anything falling into it etc. for that will give the 'bigger' picture so to speak as what is actually happening and why in the area of the personal subjective self image and creating emotional security....the relationship with the mother will simply 'mirror' this intended evolution in some ways, or 'act out'. So at the end it is not about the mother and their relationship with their mother (although it may look like) but it is about their own emotional issues - and how they attempted and still attempt creating emotional security for themselves all of which adds to personal self image and the evolution of that self image -that is the real issue.
The polarity of the moon will give the "˜guideline' as what needs to be embraced in order for evolution to proceed, the 4th house will give the information as how this was intended (via what kind of experiences it will be set forth, pay attention to the ruler of the 4th and any aspects it makes also anything that is in the actual 4th house is crucial for this) and where cancer falls in the chart will give the area of consciousness as what it affects and how...

Perhaps it would help to explain the essence of this to your client so that the emphasis may change - i.e. from too much emphasis on the actual mother and the related issues (i.e. sometimes there can be blame, or too much expectations etc. etc.) back to themselves.....

Blessings,
Lia

[Dhyana]

I understand. Thank you so much.

Dhyana