NEW PRACTICE CHART THREAD FOR BEGINNERS

[Rad]

Hi Ellen,

My answer would be the same as before:" I would suspect that he must have been refering to one of the achetypes of the 11th House which is to totally detach from within itself, devoid of emotional content because of that detachment, so as to then 'objectify' the nature of things including time and space, and the Soul's experience of itself detached from that time and space."

This does not, or would not mean, that time stops or that there is no time. I think you must be getting stuck on that in terms of you not understanding what he must have meant. It does mean that a Soul can so inwardly detach from within itself that there in no longer any reference to anything except that fact of consciousness itself, and the sense of individual identity within that consciousness. Thus, there 'appears' to be no time, or a sense of time.

God Bless, Rad

[Elen]

Hi Ellen,

My answer would be the same as before:" I would suspect that he must have been refering to one of the achetypes of the 11th House which is to totally detach from within itself, devoid of emotional content because of that detachment, so as to then 'objectify' the nature of things including time and space, and the Soul's experience of itself detached from that time and space."

This does not, or would not mean, that time stops or that there is no time. I think you must be getting stuck on that in terms of you not understanding what he must have meant. It does mean that a Soul can so inwardly detach from within itself that there in no longer any reference to anything except that fact of consciousness itself, and the sense of individual identity within that consciousness. Thus, there 'appears' to be no time, or a sense of time.

God Bless, Rad

Hi Rad,

Is what you are saying essentially the "NOW"? - being in that moment?

Ellen

[Elen]

Hi Rad,

This is my attempt to understand this paradigm from a 1st Consensus perspective.  I'm not at all sure I've gotten it, so before going onto 2nd Consensus and 3rd, I thought I should get your feedback.



1st Stage Consensus (Thanks, Linda, for the basic format of how to put this together"¦):
The 1st House Consensus person's primary desire is conforming to the prevailing cultural norms - to feel a sense of belonging.  At this stage of development, ambition has not yet developed and the primary motivation is getting one's basic needs met.  As a result, Souls at this stage of development tend to be the worker bees of society, working at the lower rungs of society, doing the grunt work that makes life possible for the rest of society.

Pluto in the 11th /1st House SN:
Even at this stage of development, the 11th House Pluto person, in prior lifetimes, will have learned to view society from an objective level.   And, from this objective perspective, they will be naturally scanning their surroundings for ways to make it better.  Linda and Rad talked about the inventiveness of the 11th house archetype, so it may be that the 1st stage Consensus person sees ways to improve the work functions (by inventing a technique or a device) at the level at which s/he is working, thus helping to improve the lives of those at her/his level.  This person would see her/himself as very much a part of the collective in which s/he finds her/himself and the other members of the collective will embrace her/him as one of their own.  Another way this archetype may express itself in 1st Consensus is through the individual's natural attunement to injustices.  Perhaps the working conditions are poor.  This individual may be a champion of the rights of her/his co-workers.  The awareness of injustices may also be a primary trigger for evolutionary growth in that it would create the awareness that others have more than her/him and those at his level and thus create a desire to advance to this level - to attain these things for her/himself.
I am struggling to understand the leadership signatures of Aquarius/Aries in a 1st stage consensus individual.  I am thinking of things like labor rights, but am wondering exactly what 1st stage consensus role would be given the leadership signatures.  Would this person be a participant, sharing her/his ingenuity and inventiveness, contributing in that way.  Or would s/he be a leader in this kind of struggle because of the leadership signatures and despite the 1st stage consensus situation? 
Depending on other factors in the chart, these archetypes may play out in a dysfunctional way.  In this situation, perhaps the individual will adopt eccentric identity after eccentric identity, trying to impress others but making no real inroads in terms of discovering an authentic identity.  Thus, rather than being able to draw on her/his awareness to help improve the lot of her/his companions, s/he will simply be spinning her/his wheels.  Ultimately, this may lead to the further distortions of anger and the desire to dominate others.  But this all would play out within the context of Consensus reality, not outside it.  (But I am having a hard time coming up with an example of how this may play out"¦.?)
5th House PPP/7th House NN
If the archetype is expressing in a constructive way, this person will be encountering others who will help her/him to facilitate her/his fullest creative expression.  These others may encourage the person in actualizing her/his natural leadership abilities (as described above).  Encountering these others will also help the person begin to zero in on just who s/he is (rather than continuing the process of instinctually initiating the exploration of new identities).  Finally, within the context of relationship that these encounters actualize, this person will learn lessons of equality - of seeing and relating to the other as an equal - learning the art of genuine listening and learning to see a person for who s/he really is (rather than, perhaps, the romantic vision that an Aries SN might be tempted to see, ie, as the person to be rescued - the damsel in distress (thus demonstrating her/his own courage and worthiness).  With NN in Libra, courage will be redefined as the challenge to relate to another as an equal and to express one's true self.
If dysfunctional expressions of 11th House Pluto/1st House SN reach the level of anger and the desire to dominate others, then the 5th House PPP/7th House NN will lead to shocks resulting from encounters with others who expect to be treated as equals.  On the other hand, this person may attract others who do not wish to relate as equals, preferring instead dependent relationships.  The chronic failure to tap into her/his own true creative potential as a result of this dysfunction will lead to inner shocks of awareness and realization of the dependency and dysfunction, prompting healing and growth.

[Rad]

Hi Ellen,

Good for you in trying to a apply this paradigm to the 1st Stage consensus. The value is in the effort. Please see below.

Hi Rad,

This is my attempt to understand this paradigm from a 1st Consensus perspective.  I'm not at all sure I've gotten it, so before going onto 2nd Consensus and 3rd, I thought I should get your feedback.



1st Stage Consensus (Thanks, Linda, for the basic format of how to put this together"¦):
The 1st House Consensus person's primary desire is conforming to the prevailing cultural norms - to feel a sense of belonging.  At this stage of development, ambition has not yet developed and the primary motivation is getting one's basic needs met.  As a result, Souls at this stage of development tend to be the worker bees of society, working at the lower rungs of society, doing the grunt work that makes life possible for the rest of society.

Pluto in the 11th /1st House SN:
Even at this stage of development, the 11th House Pluto person, in prior lifetimes, will have learned to view society from an objective level.   And, from this objective perspective, they will be naturally scanning their surroundings for ways to make it better.  Linda and Rad talked about the inventiveness of the 11th house archetype, so it may be that the 1st stage Consensus person sees ways to improve the work functions (by inventing a technique or a device) at the level at which s/he is working, thus helping to improve the lives of those at her/his level.  This person would see her/himself as very much a part of the collective in which s/he finds her/himself and the other members of the collective will embrace her/him as one of their own.  Another way this archetype may express itself in 1st Consensus is through the individual's natural attunement to injustices.  Perhaps the working conditions are poor.  This individual may be a champion of the rights of her/his co-workers.  The awareness of injustices may also be a primary trigger for evolutionary growth in that it would create the awareness that others have more than her/him and those at his level and thus create a desire to advance to this level - to attain these things for her/himself.

************************************************************************

Yes.

**********************************************************************

I am struggling to understand the leadership signatures of Aquarius/Aries in a 1st stage consensus individual.  I am thinking of things like labor rights, but am wondering exactly what 1st stage consensus role would be given the leadership signatures.  Would this person be a participant, sharing her/his ingenuity and inventiveness, contributing in that way.  Or would s/he be a leader in this kind of struggle because of the leadership signatures and despite the 1st stage consensus situation?

************************************************************************

The leadership archetype here is totally dependent on the actual conditions of the Souls life, and would be ignited relative to the overall conditions of the community of people in which the Soul was part of. For example, it could be a Soul living within a community somewhere in in Africa that had a need for another supply of water because it had run dry. Such a Soul in that context could then figure out, invent, another way of finding that water and getting it to it's community. Thus, the Soul would be seen as a leader because the Soul from within itself figured out how to do this. This example could be examples in countless ways. The point is that it is the actual conditions of the community of people in which this Soul is existing within, and what that community needs relative to what it lacks, that then becomes the causative factor for ignites this inventive capacity within this Soul, and the leadership capacity to make that happen.

************************************************************************

Depending on other factors in the chart, these archetypes may play out in a dysfunctional way.  In this situation, perhaps the individual will adopt eccentric identity after eccentric identity, trying to impress others but making no real inroads in terms of discovering an authentic identity.  Thus, rather than being able to draw on her/his awareness to help improve the lot of her/his companions, s/he will simply be spinning her/his wheels.  Ultimately, this may lead to the further distortions of anger and the desire to dominate others.  But this all would play out within the context of Consensus reality, not outside it.  (But I am having a hard time coming up with an example of how this may play out"¦.?)

************************************************************************

You are having a hard time coming up with examples because it would not  play out this way given the paradigm that we are working with, and only that paradigm. Even within the paradigm itself such a Soul would not be experimenting with trying on different eccentric identities just to try them out. And there is no inherent dysfunction within this paradigm at all.

************************************************************************

5th House PPP/7th House NN
If the archetype is expressing in a constructive way, this person will be encountering others who will help her/him to facilitate her/his fullest creative expression.  These others may encourage the person in actualizing her/his natural leadership abilities (as described above).  Encountering these others will also help the person begin to zero in on just who s/he is (rather than continuing the process of instinctually initiating the exploration of new identities).  Finally, within the context of relationship that these encounters actualize, this person will learn lessons of equality - of seeing and relating to the other as an equal - learning the art of genuine listening and learning to see a person for who s/he really is (rather than, perhaps, the romantic vision that an Aries SN might be tempted to see, ie, as the person to be rescued - the damsel in distress (thus demonstrating her/his own courage and worthiness).  With NN in Libra, courage will be redefined as the challenge to relate to another as an equal and to express one's true self.

************************************************************

Again, there simply isn't any process of instinctually initiating the exploration of identities at this level of evolution. At this level of evolution this would be a Soul who found their own unique role within the community in which they lived, and their entire sense of identity would be defined by that role. With the S.Node in the 1st this could also equal a natural loner, not wanting to be married for example, in that community. Of itself this would then create a real sense of being 'different' in that community given that most people do marry at some point no matter where they live, or what cultural contexts that a Soul lives within. This creates a Soul that is a member of that community, but a member in that community that is standing on the outside looking in.

The N.Node then directly correlates to new step in this Souls evolution: to enter the arena marriage to another. And in this way all those 7th House, Libra, type lessons then would exist. The 5th House polarity would then of course correlate with having children which expands upon the lessons within the 7th House. As these lessons occur this will then evolve the Soul's orientation to it's community as well. The Soul will evolve from being a member of it's community who is essentially standing on the outside of it, yet wanting to help it by way of what that community needs, to becoming a member within it who has now embraced its total reality because of living within it: the opposite of standing on the outside looking in.

*************************************************************************

If dysfunctional expressions of 11th House Pluto/1st House SN reach the level of anger and the desire to dominate others, then the 5th House PPP/7th House NN will lead to shocks resulting from encounters with others who expect to be treated as equals.  On the other hand, this person may attract others who do not wish to relate as equals, preferring instead dependent relationships.  The chronic failure to tap into her/his own true creative potential as a result of this dysfunction will lead to inner shocks of awareness and realization of the dependency and dysfunction, prompting healing and growth.

**************************************************************************

Again, there is no inherent dysfunction in this paradigm. It is true that the Soul will encounter potential shock from others who want to be treated as equals. That shock would then of course enforce the Soul to objectify itself as to why such shocks are occurring in the first place. In that objectification the Soul could then learn what those 7th House lessons are all about, and then make choices that would allow those lessons to be embraced. Conversely, the Soul can of course resist these lessons. If so, then the Soul will remain as part of it's community, yet living on the outside of it looking in.

**************************************************************************

God Bless, Rad

[Elen]

Hi Rad,

Thank you so much.  A couple of brief follow up questions.  See below in blue.  (Addition: also, just below the red there is a question in bold following what you wrote in bold.  For some reason the blue didn't take.)

Hi Ellen,

Good for you in trying to a apply this paradigm to the 1st Stage consensus. The value is in the effort. Please see below.

Hi Rad,

This is my attempt to understand this paradigm from a 1st Consensus perspective.  I'm not at all sure I've gotten it, so before going onto 2nd Consensus and 3rd, I thought I should get your feedback.



1st Stage Consensus (Thanks, Linda, for the basic format of how to put this together"¦):
The 1st House Consensus person's primary desire is conforming to the prevailing cultural norms - to feel a sense of belonging.  At this stage of development, ambition has not yet developed and the primary motivation is getting one's basic needs met.  As a result, Souls at this stage of development tend to be the worker bees of society, working at the lower rungs of society, doing the grunt work that makes life possible for the rest of society.

Pluto in the 11th /1st House SN:
Even at this stage of development, the 11th House Pluto person, in prior lifetimes, will have learned to view society from an objective level.   And, from this objective perspective, they will be naturally scanning their surroundings for ways to make it better.  Linda and Rad talked about the inventiveness of the 11th house archetype, so it may be that the 1st stage Consensus person sees ways to improve the work functions (by inventing a technique or a device) at the level at which s/he is working, thus helping to improve the lives of those at her/his level.  This person would see her/himself as very much a part of the collective in which s/he finds her/himself and the other members of the collective will embrace her/him as one of their own.  Another way this archetype may express itself in 1st Consensus is through the individual's natural attunement to injustices.  Perhaps the working conditions are poor.  This individual may be a champion of the rights of her/his co-workers.  The awareness of injustices may also be a primary trigger for evolutionary growth in that it would create the awareness that others have more than her/him and those at his level and thus create a desire to advance to this level - to attain these things for her/himself.

************************************************************************

Yes.

**********************************************************************

I am struggling to understand the leadership signatures of Aquarius/Aries in a 1st stage consensus individual.  I am thinking of things like labor rights, but am wondering exactly what 1st stage consensus role would be given the leadership signatures.  Would this person be a participant, sharing her/his ingenuity and inventiveness, contributing in that way.  Or would s/he be a leader in this kind of struggle because of the leadership signatures and despite the 1st stage consensus situation?

************************************************************************

The leadership archetype here is totally dependent on the actual conditions of the Souls life, and would be ignited relative to the overall conditions of the community of people in which the Soul was part of. For example, it could be a Soul living within a community somewhere in in Africa that had a need for another supply of water because it had run dry. Such a Soul in that context could then figure out, invent, another way of finding that water and getting it to it's community. Thus, the Soul would be seen as a leader because the Soul from within itself figured out how to do this. This example could be examples in countless ways. The point is that it is the actual conditions of the community of people in which this Soul is existing within, and what that community needs relative to what it lacks, that then becomes the causative factor for ignites this inventive capacity within this Soul, and the leadership capacity to make that happen.

************************************************************************

Depending on other factors in the chart, these archetypes may play out in a dysfunctional way.  In this situation, perhaps the individual will adopt eccentric identity after eccentric identity, trying to impress others but making no real inroads in terms of discovering an authentic identity.  Thus, rather than being able to draw on her/his awareness to help improve the lot of her/his companions, s/he will simply be spinning her/his wheels.  Ultimately, this may lead to the further distortions of anger and the desire to dominate others.  But this all would play out within the context of Consensus reality, not outside it.  (But I am having a hard time coming up with an example of how this may play out"¦.?)

************************************************************************

You are having a hard time coming up with examples because it would not  play out this way given the paradigm that we are working with, and only that paradigm. Even within the paradigm itself such a Soul would not be experimenting with trying on different eccentric identities just to try them out. And there is no inherent dysfunction within this paradigm at all.
Rad, is this true at all evolutionary stages or just this one?  Would experimenting with identities be a possibility for an Individuated Soul within this paradigm?  Or does this paradigm not support such a reading at any evolutionary stage?


************************************************************************

5th House PPP/7th House NN
If the archetype is expressing in a constructive way, this person will be encountering others who will help her/him to facilitate her/his fullest creative expression.  These others may encourage the person in actualizing her/his natural leadership abilities (as described above).  Encountering these others will also help the person begin to zero in on just who s/he is (rather than continuing the process of instinctually initiating the exploration of new identities).  Finally, within the context of relationship that these encounters actualize, this person will learn lessons of equality - of seeing and relating to the other as an equal - learning the art of genuine listening and learning to see a person for who s/he really is (rather than, perhaps, the romantic vision that an Aries SN might be tempted to see, ie, as the person to be rescued - the damsel in distress (thus demonstrating her/his own courage and worthiness).  With NN in Libra, courage will be redefined as the challenge to relate to another as an equal and to express one's true self.

************************************************************

Again, there simply isn't any process of instinctually initiating the exploration of identities at this level of evolution.
>Is that the key here, ie, AT THIS LEVEL OF EVOLUTION?
Also, is there any validity to the part that I hightlighted in red?
At this level of evolution this would be a Soul who found their own unique role within the community in which they lived, and their entire sense of identity would be defined by that role.
So, rather than EXPERIMENTING with identity (which might happen in individuated?), this person would have a sense of identity that gave her/him a sense of special place in the community, but with the feeling of standing on the outside looking in....?

With the S.Node in the 1st this could also equal a natural loner, not wanting to be married for example, in that community. Of itself this would then create a real sense of being 'different' in that community given that most people do marry at some point no matter where they live, or what cultural contexts that a Soul lives within. This creates a Soul that is a member of that community, but a member in that community that is standing on the outside looking in.

The N.Node then directly correlates to new step in this Souls evolution: to enter the arena marriage to another. And in this way all those 7th House, Libra, type lessons then would exist. The 5th House polarity would then of course correlate with having children which expands upon the lessons within the 7th House. As these lessons occur this will then evolve the Soul's orientation to it's community as well. The Soul will evolve from being a member of it's community who is essentially standing on the outside of it, yet wanting to help it by way of what that community needs, to becoming a member within it who has now embraced its total reality because of living within it: the opposite of standing on the outside looking in.

*************************************************************************

If dysfunctional expressions of 11th House Pluto/1st House SN reach the level of anger and the desire to dominate others, then the 5th House PPP/7th House NN will lead to shocks resulting from encounters with others who expect to be treated as equals.  On the other hand, this person may attract others who do not wish to relate as equals, preferring instead dependent relationships.  The chronic failure to tap into her/his own true creative potential as a result of this dysfunction will lead to inner shocks of awareness and realization of the dependency and dysfunction, prompting healing and growth.

**************************************************************************

Again, there is no inherent dysfunction in this paradigm. It is true that the Soul will encounter potential shock from others who want to be treated as equals. That shock would then of course enforce the Soul to objectify itself as to why such shocks are occurring in the first place. In that objectification the Soul could then learn what those 7th House lessons are all about, and then make choices that would allow those lessons to be embraced. Conversely, the Soul can of course resist these lessons. If so, then the Soul will remain as part of it's community, yet living on the outside of it looking in.

With regard to dysfunction, I don't mean to imply that it's inherent.  But isn't it true that any paradigm can possibly play out dysfunctionally depending on circumstances?  Or do I have that wrong..?  I was just wanting to think about the paradigm from all perspectives, including positive and possible negative manifestations to better understand it.  But perhaps some paradigms will not play out negatively?

With gratitude,
Ellen
**************************************************************************

God Bless, Rad

[Rad]

Hi Ellen,

"Rad, is this true at all evolutionary stages or just this one?  Would experimenting with identities be a possibility for an Individuated Soul within this paradigm?  Or does this paradigm not support such a reading at any evolutionary stage?"

***********************************************************************

This could begin to occur in some way towards the end of the 1st Stage Individuated, and then on into the 2nd Stage Individuated.

*************************************************************************

"So, rather than EXPERIMENTING with identity (which might happen in individuated?Huh), this person would have a sense of identity that gave her/him a sense of special place in the community, but with the feeling of standing on the outside looking in....?"

***********************************************************************

Yes

***********************************************************************

"With regard to dysfunction, I don't mean to imply that it's inherent.  But isn't it true that any paradigm can possibly play out dysfunctionally depending on circumstances?  Or do I have that wrong..?  I was just wanting to think about the paradigm from all perspectives, including positive and possible negative manifestations to better understand it.  But perhaps some paradigms will not play out negatively?"

************************************************************************

I would suggest that we look at these paradigms simply from the point of view of the archetypes within them that do not need to be judged in a positive or negative way. The circumstances for any of us, at any level of evolution, are created by our Souls. Thus any potential dysfunction occurs from within the Soul, not the circumstances themselves because those circumstances would be a reflection of the dysfunction going on within the Soul itself.

**********************************************************************

God Bless, Rad

[Elen]

Rad wrote:
I would suggest that we look at these paradigms simply from the point of view of the archetypes within them that do not need to be judged in a positive or negative way. The circumstances for any of us, at any level of evolution, are created by our Souls. Thus any potential dysfunction occurs from within the Soul, not the circumstances themselves because those circumstances would be a reflection of the dysfunction going on within the Soul itself.

Hi Rad,

Thank you again.  With regard to your quote above, I have a lot to learn.  I believe I understand what you are saying with regard to the Soul creating the circumstances it needs - so whether those circumstances are "positive" or "negative" isn't really the point or the question.  The question is, what is the Soul needing to learn and why.  Is this correct?

What I don't understand is how you can tell from the paradigm we're working with that Aries might not play out as dominant and Libra as codependent.  Does this question make sense?  How can we know, from the perspective of the assignment we are doing (ie, without observation and correlation) that those possibilities won't manifest or aren't at least a POSSIBLE manifestation?

Hope my question makes sense.  And thanks for bearing with me.

Peace,
Ellen

[Rad]

Hi Ellen,

"Thank you again.  With regard to your quote above, I have a lot to learn.  I believe I understand what you are saying with regard to the Soul creating the circumstances it needs - so whether those circumstances are "positive" or "negative" isn't really the point or the question.  The question is, what is the Soul needing to learn and why.  Is this correct?"

*****************************************************

Yes.

********************************************************

"What I don't understand is how you can tell from the paradigm we're working with that Aries might not play out as dominant and Libra as codependent.  Does this question make sense?  How can we know, from the perspective of the assignment we are doing (ie, without observation and correlation) that those possibilities won't manifest or aren't at least a POSSIBLE manifestation?"

*******************************************************************

It is entirely possible for the S.Node in the 1st or Aries to be dominant not only in it's intimate relationships, but also in relating to people in general. With a variety of prior lives actualized through the 11th House Pluto, S.Node in the 1st, it would not be possible for the Soul to become DEPENDANT on another in the sense of being able to not function without another in the Soul's life. It is possible for this Soul to become co-dependent on an intimate other in the sense that that other is designed by this Soul to create objective feedback, and deliver necessary information, about the existing dynamics within this Soul that do need to evolve in the ways that this paradigm means. However, this still would not mean that this Soul could not live without that other, or others in general because of it's prior life orientations to reality.

**********************************************************************

God Bless, Rad

[Rad]

Hi,

Let me know if all those who are participating in our beginner's practice charts are ready to move on to another one. The first response by those participating has been wonderful. So let me know.

God Bless, Rad

[mountainheather]

Ready. Heather

[Elen]

Rad's quote:
It is entirely possible for the S.Node in the 1st or Aries to be dominant not only in it's intimate relationships, but also in relating to people in general. With a variety of prior lives actualized through the 11th House Pluto, S.Node in the 1st, it would not be possible for the Soul to become DEPENDANT on another in the sense of being able to not function without another in the Soul's life. It is possible for this Soul to become co-dependent on an intimate other in the sense that that other is designed by this Soul to create objective feedback, and deliver necessary information, about the existing dynamics within this Soul that do need to evolve in the ways that this paradigm means. However, this still would not mean that this Soul could not live without that other, or others in general because of it's prior life orientations to reality.

Hi Rad,

One more follow up.  And I'm sorry if I'm seeming or being obtuse here, but I just want to make sure I understand.  With regard to the part that I highlighted in blue, this is so because of Aries alone, or because of both 11th house and Aries?  I am thinking it is both: 11th house objectivity and 1st house need for freedom/independence.  But I want to be sure.

Again, sorry to drag this out.

Peace,
Ellen

[Elen]

Ready after that one last question.  Thanks for this opportunity, Rad.  I feel so fortunate to be able to practice here and receive your feedback.

Peace,
Ellen

[Rad]

Hi Ellen,

Yes, it's the combination of the 11th House Pluto, S.Node in the Aries House. Don't worry about dragging things out: your have a deep and sincere desire to learn this stuff, and that is what I truly respond too.


God Bless, Rad

[Linda]

I'm ready too.
Just a reminder to please set the evolutionary condition.  Or do we choose?
This is a great thread, and it's wonderful that you are helping us learn this paradigm from the ground up.
Thanks so much Rad.

[mirta]

Hi Rad
I am ready for a new try.
Thanks for the opportunity
God Bless
Mirta