PRACTICE CHARTS

[Bradley J]

Rad, thanks again.  Truely grateful for this learning experience.

One thing that came to me was the journaling as a means for one with this signature to learn to listen to their self.  Or perhaps conversations with their self. 

Continuing to meditate on this all,
Bradley J

[Michelle]

Sorry I have taken so long to respond, working alot. I will try to add more to my thoughts....


Coming into first stage individuated relative to Pluto in the 7th NN in the 9th. I think this soul would come from a past of relating to others through higher institutions of learning, or through being exposed to differing  cultures.

Coming in from past life of being Educated maybe formally through institutions such as universities(teachers) or maybe taught through a tribe, family/cultural type situation (spiritual/religous teachings maybe even arts of sorts).Question? Would this person come in confussed because of being involved in other cultures and then not feeling they belong to the one they are in? So the search begins to belong and understand?

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Because they are new in the first stage of individuated they will still struggle with belief systems and knowing what their truth is versus others. They are expanding their consciousness. Maybe going back in forth between philosophical views. They connect to others in education, religion or cultural systems sometimes attracted to teachers that they learn from or looking for teachers.



Pluto in the 7th and the core of the soul needing to be needed, connecting to the 9th house SN there is an inner instinct, a need for freedom to explore and understand what makes others the way they are, why do they believe what they believe and bringing this back to the 7th house Pluto they are learning who they are as an individual ( Polarity Point Aries) as they compare themselves to others. They are breaking away from the consensuses values and beliefs but are still unsure of who they are as they interact with new information they get out in the world. It seems to me they will still be connected to the consensuses life they came from because they still need to be needed and accepted, plus this is what they have learned in the past so they understand and relate with those that are in the stage they came from??( Is this right) still they desire to break free..They haven't fully developed independence as they are still in first stage individuated.  With the SN in the 9th they may be learning from books first and then joining groups to step out of their comfort zone and take that 9th house leap of faith. They may be exposed to other cultures just by going to another part of the city where different types of people hang out  or joining a new spiritual group. As they connect with others and form relationships with others of different lifestyles and cultures they expand their consciousness, they explore new ideas and belief systems and start to define what they believe and don't believe. ex: I have a friend that sky dives and he met people from all over the world right here in Tucson...this expanded his acceptance of others and other cultures. He has SN in the 9th house .

This is helpful in developing the 7th house lessons of equality, relativity, and listening. They are learning how to listen to others reality as it exist for them.



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They are learning duality,that two people can have different philosophy's and both be right. Learning the karma of truth. When this is taken back to the 7th I could see the shifting that would go on between Not this, not that as they are learning who they are, what their truth is.
Humor may be involved,a gift they carry in relating to others


I just thought of something Steve wrote about the extremes of the 7th house Pluto....I can see extremes in trying on different beliefs as they form relationships with different people/teachers/careers/cultures. After they loose themselves in what ever it is they have connected to and then they move towards the Polarity point Aries, they may have major changes of starting and stopping what they are involved in. I can imagine this would cause extreme confusion and disillusionment of what the truth is relative to the relationships, teachers and beliefs they have been exposed to. It seems to me they may take big leaps and have a lot of enthusiasm for what they find in the beginning and then take big falls as they realize this is not their truth but some other point of view that is just part of the universal whole. I think this would create an isolation type feeling and as they still need to be needed the search for that need starts again??? They are also learning balance and equality as these extremes lead them back to themselves. 

[Michelle]

I just read through the previous post by Bradley and Rad and see that much of what I ask or said has all ready been answered! 

The following can be plugged into a few areas where I am talking:

It's specific to this signature in that they NATURE of the questions within them that correlate to evolving beyond the consensus state are philosophical in nature: philosophies equal beliefs which in turn determine how we 'interpret' reality,  which in determines the meaning and values that we project on the phenomena of life itself, which in turn determine our inner relationship to ourselves. This is the very essence of a Soul with this signature. So such a Soul will be asking all kinds of questions, pondering all kinds of things, that relate to this which serves as the determinant of the types of relationships that they initiate with others.

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A separate thought, Michelle made comment of the contacts with higher education and other cultures.
This also got me thinking about the 9th house ties with travel.
Can we know that this cataclysmic plutonian event that has propelled them out of the herd state is from their past travels and exposure to new paradigms and perspectives on reality?  Or could all the same have occured because of the studies that were underway?

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We can know that that is a possibility. It's just as possible, given the limited symbols so far, that the Soul created 'inner travel' that has lead to increasing alienation from the consensus. And that that alienation itself lead to a cataclysmic event in a recent prior life leading to the current life.

Plus all the other great information...this is a challenge to get it all out there and put it together. Thanks so much for this valuable lesson.

Peace,
Michelle

[Michelle]

One more thing.....

I noticed again Jim Jones chart has 7th house Pluto with a 9th house SN. This is an example of the negative manifestation of this combination. Sorry I'm obsessed with him but I saw this movie as a kid and he really freaked me out. Weird that hes 7th house Pluto??? If your interested I have post info. about him. His chart is in Pluto 1, 7th house examples.


Jim Jones

Photo credit: The Jonestown Institute
Born    James Warren Jones
May 13, 1931(1931-05-13)
Crete, Indiana, U.S.
Died    November 18, 1978 (aged 47)
Jonestown, Guyana
Occupation    Leader, Peoples Temple

Background of the Peoples Temple:

This was a Christian destructive, doomsday cult founded and led by James Warren Jones (1931-1978). Jim Jones held degrees from Indiana University and Butler University. He was not a Fundamentalist pastor as many reports in the media and the anti-cult movement claim. He belonged to a mainline Christian denomination, having been ordained in the Christian Church/Disciples of Christ. (At the time of his ordination, the DoC allowed a local congregation to select and ordain a minister on their own. However, ordinations conducted without denominational endorsement were not considered valid within the rest of the church.) 

The Peoples Temple was initially structured as an inter-racial mission for the sick, homeless and jobless. He assembled a large following of over 900 members in Indianapolis IN during the 1950's.

    "He preached a 'social gospel' of human freedom, equality, and love, which required helping the least and the lowliest of society's members. Later on, however, this gospel became explicitly socialistic, or communistic in Jones' own view, and the hypocrisy of white Christianity was ridiculed while 'apostolic socialism' was preached." 1

It was an interracial congregation -- almost unheard of in Indiana at the time. When a government investigation began into his cures for cancer, heart disease and arthritis, he decided to move the group to Ukiah in Northern California. He preached the imminent end of the world in a nuclear war; Esquire magazine listed Ukiah as one of nine in the U.S. that cold survive a nuclear attack. They later moved to San Francisco and Los Angeles. After an expose during the mid 1970's in the magazine New West raised suspicions of illegal activities within the Temple, he moved some of the Temple membership to Jonestown, Guyana. The Temple had leased almost 4,000 acres of dense jungle from the government. They established an agricultural cooperative there, called the "Peoples Temple Agricultural Project." They raised animals for food, and assorted tropical fruits and vegetables for consumption and sale.

Jones developed a belief called Translation in which he and his followers would all die together, and would move to another planet for a life of bliss. Mass suicides were practiced in which his followers pretended to drink poison and fell to the ground.

During the late 1970's, Jones had been abusing prescription drugs and appears to have become increasingly paranoid. Rumors of human rights abuses circulated. As in most high-intensity religious groups, there was a considerable flow of people joining and leaving the group. Tim Stoen, the Temple attorney and right-hand man to Jones left to form a group called Concerned Relatives. They claimed that Jonestown was being run like a concentration camp, and that people were being held there against their will.

These concerns motivated Leo Ryan, a Congressman, to visit Jonestown in 1978-NOV for a personal inspection. At first, the visit went well. Later, on NOV-18, about 16 Temple members decided that they wanted to leave Jonestown with the visitors. This came as quite a blow to both Jones and the rest of the project. While Ryan and the others were waiting at Port Kiatuma airfield, the local airstrip, some heavily armed members of the Temple's security guards arrived and started shooting. Congressman Ryan and four others were killed; three were members of the press; the other was a person from Jonestown who wanted to leave. 11 were wounded.

Fearing retribution, the project members discuss their options. They reach a consensus to commit group suicide.  Most appear to have committed suicide by drinking a grape drink laced with cyanide and a number of sedatives, including liquid Valium, Penegram and chloral hydrate. Some sources say it was Kool-Aid; others say FlaVor-Aid®. Other victims appear to have been murdered by poison injection. The Guyanese coroner said that hundreds of bodies showed needle marks, indicating foul play. Still other victims were shot. A very few fled into the jungle and survived.

In all, 914 died: 638 adults and 276 children. Some sources say 911 died. Their bodies were in a state of extensive decay when the authorities arrived. There was no time to conduct a thorough investigation. TV station KTVU in San Francisco CA has a collection of photographs of the "Peoples temple Agricultural Project." Some are quite disturbing. Unfortunately, their web site implies that all of the dead committed suicide. 14

The Peoples Temple organization did not survive the mass suicide/murder in Guyana. Their former headquarters building in San Francisco was demolished by the Loma Prieta earthquake of 1989.

[Rad]

Michelle,

Sorry I have taken so long to respond, working alot. I will try to add more to my thoughts....


Coming into first stage individuated relative to Pluto in the 7th NN in the 9th. I think this soul would come from a past of relating to others through higher institutions of learning, or through being exposed to differing  cultures.

Coming in from past life of being Educated maybe formally through institutions such as universities(teachers) or maybe taught through a tribe, family/cultural type situation (spiritual/religous teachings maybe even arts of sorts).Question? Would this person come in confussed because of being involved in other cultures and then not feeling they belong to the one they are in? So the search begins to belong and understand?


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Yes, and that confusion reflects a core ALIENATION from the existing society/ tribe of birth UNLESS they are born into a culture that is defined by NATURAL LAWS. Very few are anymore of course. The intent of the alienation, relative to any belief system, philosophy, or thought forms equaling moralities and the judgments that follow, is to have the Soul become realigned with all the natural laws of Nature that God/ess set in motion at the time of the Creation.


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Because they are new in the first stage of individuated they will still struggle with belief systems and knowing what their truth is versus others. They are expanding their consciousness. Maybe going back in forth between philosophical views. They connect to others in education, religion or cultural systems sometimes attracted to teachers that they learn from or looking for teachers.



Pluto in the 7th and the core of the soul needing to be needed, connecting to the 9th house SN there is an inner instinct, a need for freedom to explore and understand what makes others the way they are, why do they believe what they believe and bringing this back to the 7th house Pluto they are learning who they are as an individual ( Polarity Point Aries) as they compare themselves to others. They are breaking away from the consensuses values and beliefs but are still unsure of who they are as they interact with new information they get out in the world. It seems to me they will still be connected to the consensuses life they came from because they still need to be needed and accepted, plus this is what they have learned in the past so they understand and relate with those that are in the stage they came from??

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Yes, this is totally right. Typically, because of just evolving into the Individuated state, the Soul will create at double reality. The outer reality will look like a consensus reality, and the inner reality will be about who they actually are. This then induces, and reinforces, the alienation too because by creating the external appearance of normalcy they in effect create all kinds of circumstances and people that have zero idea of who they actually are within themselves. Thus, feeling not understood by most, the alienation that this creates is INTENTIONAL because it is then used to fuel the ongoing evolution of the individual away from the consensus and , ultimately, back to a state of natural law which includes the NATURAL TRUTH OF WHO THEY ARE AT A SOUL LEVEL.

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( Is this right) still they desire to break free..They haven't fully developed independence as they are still in first stage individuated.  With the SN in the 9th they may be learning from books first and then joining groups to step out of their comfort zone and take that 9th house leap of faith. They may be exposed to other cultures just by going to another part of the city where different types of people hang out  or joining a new spiritual group. As they connect with others and form relationships with others of different lifestyles and cultures they expand their consciousness, they explore new ideas and belief systems and start to define what they believe and don't believe. ex: I have a friend that sky dives and he met people from all over the world right here in Tucson...this expanded his acceptance of others and other cultures. He has SN in the 9th house .

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Yes, excellant

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This is helpful in developing the 7th house lessons of equality, relativity, and listening. They are learning how to listen to others reality as it exist for them.

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Yes ..................



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They are learning duality,that two people can have different philosophy's and both be right. Learning the karma of truth. When this is taken back to the 7th I could see the shifting that would go on between Not this, not that as they are learning who they are, what their truth is.
Humor may be involved,a gift they carry in relating to others

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Yes, and as they evolve through this state they will realize that all Souls must have the 'beliefs' that they have in any given life because of their own evolutionary condition and intentions which dictate those particular beliefs or philosophies.

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I just thought of something Steve wrote about the extremes of the 7th house Pluto....I can see extremes in trying on different beliefs as they form relationships with different people/teachers/careers/cultures. After they loose themselves in what ever it is they have connected to and then they move towards the Polarity point Aries, they may have major changes of starting and stopping what they are involved in. I can imagine this would cause extreme confusion and disillusionment of what the truth is relative to the relationships, teachers and beliefs they have been exposed to. It seems to me they may take big leaps and have a lot of enthusiasm for what they find in the beginning and then take big falls as they realize this is not their truth but some other point of view that is just part of the universal whole. I think this would create an isolation type feeling and as they still need to be needed the search for that need starts again??? They are also learning balance and equality as these extremes lead them back to themselves. 

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Yes....................

  Really, really good Michelle. High fives to you.

Rad

[Linda]

Rad,

I'll be sending my Pluto 7th/SN 9th practice in a day or two! Just studying it all thoroughly now. (This one's not an easy task, but it's great to learn how to do it!)  Are we covering Pluto polarity 1st and NN 3rd as well in this session?  Or later?

Linda.

[Rad]

Linda,

Rad,

I'll be sending my Pluto 7th/SN 9th practice in a day or two! Just studying it all thoroughly now. (This one's not an easy task, but it's great to learn how to do it!)  Are we covering Pluto polarity 1st and NN 3rd as well in this session?  Or later?

Linda.

Ok, great. Been wondering where you have been. Yes, go ahead and include the N.Node in the 3rd, 1st House polarity of the 7th House Pluto. Bradley and Michelle if you would like to expand more also on these polarity points, please do. After this we will be adding more, i.e. the location of the planetary rulers of these Nodes.

Rad

[ari moshe]

hello all
i have repossessed my book. ive read up on 7h pluto and this thread.

For this soul just entering the individuated state, the individual is seeking a philosophy in life that is less about dogma and blind faith, and more about the intellect- the power of free thinking, questioning and reason.

the soul has created relationships with individuals that reflected back to the soul the very beliefs it has been liberating from. the soul has learned to set itself a part from those relationships and determine it's own thoughts about reality. in that sense, this soul has been learning to find a true balance between itself and others by not just settling for the prevailing beliefs of it's culture in order to be accepted by others. this soul is ready for a radically new approach to relationships!

DYNAMICS OF THIS CONFIGURATION:
There will be a natural tendency to set up relationships to teachers, teacher type people, or partners who seem to 'know' whats up. but the soul is thrown back on itself, continuously, each time it realizes that it has sacrificed it's own thoughts in order to be liked and approved of by these other people.

In particular, the experience of facing ideas that simply don't meet up with the reality that the individual is experiencing, forces that soul to re-evaluate the relationships it has created.

the experience of extremes is true for all 7th house pluto souls, sometimes being the submissive one, sometimes the dominant. i was wondering when our soul in question would take the role of the dominant. this is what i came up with:
when this soul is just beginning to reorient to society in a way that is radically different than EVERYONE around the individual (1st stage individuated), this person is likely to feel very alienated, and often feel like their beliefs aren't valid. it takes a lot of courage for this soul to honor their own experience of the truth and to stop comparing their outlook to everyone else.

however in the process, in order to convince them self of having it figured out, that is, in order to feel secure, the soul will create relationships with other confused souls that are on their way out of the consensus state, or new to the individuated state. in these kinds of relationships there is the potential for the soul to play the dominant- by exuding a particular philosophical clarity that provides guidance for their partner. this is in order to regain a sense of value and esteem. however, ultimately the unbalanced nature of their relationship, through whatever evolutionary experiences, will force the soul to question it's beliefs and open up to more ideas (3h nn).

The issue is- whether the soul is playing dominant or submissive role in relationship, the relationing tends to be dependent on principals that are adhered to as being TRUE. in this evolutionary state, these principals need to be questioned thoroughly...

and so the key to evolution is found in the nn in the 3rd- symbolizing the need to ask questions and exercise mental discrimination in order to test and measure any idea/belief or dogma. this will put the soul in greater communication and association with it's enviroment, to see relationships as an opportunity to LEARN and expand the knowledge. this is different than consistently trying to find THE answer and determine the truth. they will gradually attract more partners that are interested in dialogue and sharing- so long as they themselves are not overwhelmed with insecurity when other people have strong belief systems, or the opposite- take the role of teacher when others have a weak philosophical foundation. the challenge to question everything, to accept NOTHING until it is thoroughly examined.

basically, developing more objectivity is key for developing the ppp in order for this soul not to get stuck relationships in which certain ideas are assumed as a premise- thus sublimating any real learning and growth in the relationship.

this soul may find growth and self acceptance in writing opinion letters in the newspaper editorials, by engaging in dialogue with teachers professors, or finding new media for communication and learning.  also valuable to question the assumed beliefs of their syblings, extened family, those who live in the same area. like one day responding to a religious comment made by their uncle and saying, "i dont beleive bla bla bla... ideas like that are the basis for.... and....".

is the next paragraph true for a first stage individuated soul?

all 7th house pluto souls are interested in accepting and understanding what makes another person's reality what it is. as this soul comes more into their own mental liberation, they will find more acceptance and peace with people who have radically different belief systems. they will understand that there's a reason why uncle believes they way he does- thus the ability to simultaneously respect where he is at, and wholeheartedly disagree. in this process, allowing anger to occur as a natural response to being treated unfairly is important. being comfortable with expressing their natural outrage at certain ideas implies they are not afraid of being rejected.

[Bradley J]

Thanks Michelle, Ari Moshe, Rad, and all.

I've been thinking about this concept of judgement that I brought in on a recent attempt-especially in regards to:  Where did this concept come from for me?
My main conclusions are that I carry a belief that Sagittarius and Jupiter have a shadow achetype of being high-minded and self righteous and then applied this to the 9th and....etc.
This is great reprogramming and learning application.
Have you seen this as a common mis-interpretation of this 9th s.n. achetype?

It is also interesting that Libra is associated with desicion/judgement calls, and often the scales, justice, and the judge are all grouped with the archetype.
Can anyone speak to this regarding the perspective of evolutionary astrology and a 7th house pluto?
It is my understanding that we are talking about 7th house pluto's as having to face a lot of desicion around relationship, which is different than coming in with judgements.

This concept ties in with everyone's postings as to this individual (pluto 7/sn 9) having to face a lot of desicions revolving around beliefs and ideas that are incountered through relationships.

[Linda]

7th house Pluto - 9th house SN - beginning of 1st stage individuated


This individual will cease to feel "normal" in the mainstream of society - and this estrangement will be aggravated by his South Node in the 9th.  He will try to compensate for this sense of alienation by trying to appear normal, by following a mainstream religion, or by going to university and undertaking a course of study that perhaps his parents would approved of, or by undertaking normal kinds of work, or by undertaking what is expected of him in his particular culture.  Since his core orientation to life is the need for relationships, he may at first try to conform to the consensus idea of what relationships are about, or be involved in relationships that appear to be "normal" in his culture.

Depending on his culture, even while "living a lie" he will continue to be searching for truth and knowledge, from deep within and without, through higher learning, books, workshops, and of course seeking out partners of like-mind to unite with him in his search for truth.  He will progressively distance himself from the consensus, but because he is at the very beginning of the 1st stage individuated, this progression could very well take many lifetimes.  To some degree, it is unlikely that he will actualize individualistic work.

Since he has just entered the beginning of the 1st stage individuated, he has also taken a new step in his soul development.  He could be karmically blocked from relating to others or to society, so therefore relationships could be approached in distorted or dysfunctional ways which relate to his Pluto 7th.  This non-involvement with society could attract others similar to himself who are alienated from society, drifters, misfits, travellers, multi-cultural people, etc.  He could take refuge in his own cherished beliefs and look down upon others in a self-righteous kind of way.

The karmic history or signature of the early 1st stage individuated + 7th house Pluto + 9th house SN shows how the desire and need for relationships has been fulfilled in the past.  The evolutionary impulse of the 7th house Pluto is relatively new.  His prior life soul intention was to learn lessons of equality and balance in relationships and the SN 9th describes the conscious mode of operation.  He has a compulsive need to be involved in relationship, to unite his life with another in order to feel whole, that reflects his values and beliefs based on his idea of the truth.  He will interpret natural laws according to his early 1st stage individuated evolutionary condition.  He is searching for relationships that support the formulation of a comprehensive philosophical belief system. 

He forms relationships through ideas that are not well-formed mixed in with consensus ideas of what relationships should be about. He will progressively become alienated with the mainstream ideas because they will not live up to his intuitive understanding of the truth of what relationships are about.  He will eventually break free from stereotypical-type partners whom the mainstream would approve of, and pursue relationships that reflect his need for ongoing evolution and freedom.

He fulfils his 7th house desires by developing social values by interacting with a wide variety of people with whom he can share, compare and evaluate his ideas (which are probably quite dogmatic at the early 1st stage individuated). Due to the mutability factor, he would seek a variety of relationships because of his need for freedom and expansion.  It is likely that he will debate and argue and try to convince others as to the "right" way, "his way", or the "only way" to the truth.  Because of prior life identification with his own beliefs for security reasons, he will attract these confrontations with others. 

The type of relationship that he attracts could be a traditional teacher-student one in a mainstream institution in order to expand his knowledge.  He would attract powerful teacher-types who he felt held all the answers, and who he believed could help him in his intense search.  The seeking of relationships through being a student is an old pattern;  he could attract karmic relationships to past teachers or students.  He could be the model student who plays back the right answers to the teacher, but progressively learns to think for himself, his true beliefs leaking through.  As the feeling of alienation increases, he will seek the freedom to find teachers (or partners) who reflect the new growth.  Transformation occurs via emotional shocks experienced in his friendships, relationships, and teacher-student relationships.  He could also have the ability to take in new information via osmosis.  Through Pluto's unearthing of hidden talents, he may discover new capacities within himself.  For example, he may discover latent teaching skills that could be applied in an individualized way.

As he has a compelling need to discover who he is through others, he could become overly dependent on outside sources as a means of defining himself.  He will absorb the different realities and different belief systems of others, so there is a great variety of stuff to sort through so as to integrate into his comprehensive belief system.  He will begin to be exposed to new information that is foreign to his previous education and culture.  He will unconsciously defend his old beliefs based on the past for security reasons, and face confrontations. As he continues to search and explore, he may very well have times when he is a loner.  He finds it frustrating trying to express his intuitive knowledge and this reinforces his sense of alienation.  He may not stay in one place or commit to one relationship long enough, but because his personal power and security lie in relationships, he will seek them out again.

Because of the compulsive need to compare and discover who he is through others, he may become attracted to very powerful, self-assured people who he perceives hold all the answers and who can guide him.  In order to feel a validation of the self, he would adopt the partner's views and beliefs since his own individuality is undeveloped. He may put the partner (or teacher figure) up on a pedestal, and constantly refer to the partner for validation of his belief system.  The imbalances, deficiencies and distortions in this type of relationship will produce internal and external confrontations, resulting in the termination of the relationship by either person, or other cataclysmic events that bring about reflection and examination of the difficulties, the main difficulty being inequality in the relationship, or losing oneself to the other.

Alternatively, he could play the dominant (or teacher) role in the relationship making the partner or student become utterly dependent on him due to the learned ability to deeply understand the other's reality or to understand the deep need for self-definition through a philosophical belief system.  He will have a need to convert others or the tendency to indoctrinate rather than teach, because of his own need for emotional security.  This can lead to domination, the abuse of power and inequality in the relationship.

He is realizing that he has a need to be needed, and a need to give. He is motivated to give his ideological viewpoint as somehow the "answer". He will learn that by giving to another, his own needs will be met.  He is learning to understand the reality of the other, so as to give them what they truly need, and it may not necessarily be of a philosophical nature.  Once he learns to give, he will be able to give generously, while developing his own inner balance.

1st house Pluto polarity / 3rd house NN
Through emotional shocks and philosophical and intellectual confrontations with others, he will be forced to develop the 3rd house NN.  He will learn that there are many paths to the truth and that each person has their own path. Through comparison with different points of view, he will realize the weaknesses in his own beliefs.  He will be in a better position to disseminate the knowledge that is inherent in his nature to others via the written or spoken word.  In order that his message is understood by others, he will be forced to communicate in a logical way and to improve his communication skills.  Education will transform into mutual sharing of knowledge and information rather than conversion, preaching or indoctrination.  Relationships will transform into equal roles, with give and take, rather than playing dominant/submissive roles.  As the 1st house Pluto polarity is developed and expressed, he will progressively learn that the answers lie within himself;  he will minimize his dependency on powerful people for self-validation;  self-discovery will become his passion;  he will follow new adventures and new paths that lead to learning more about himself;  he will balance his need for relationships with his need for time alone;  he will develop freedom within his relationships;  he will learn to trust in his own decisions;  he will become self-motivating, and he will develop his individuality more fully.

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Linda

[Deva]

I wanted to add my input to these posts. A core dynamic within this signature is that the Soul will be compensating for the feeling of being different (the living lie Linda referred to). In the case of the 7th house Pluto, and SN in the 9th house issues of honesty within relationships and of truly expressing what the individual believes and his or her natural truth so to speak within the relationship will be critical. In other words, the Soul in this evolutionary state most commonly will create relationships wherein the partner cannot reflect, or accept, the individuals need to liberate and decondition from the mainsteam society in general because of the underlying issue of compensation. However, the individual may put on a "happy face" so to speak even though their own legitmate needs are not being meet in this way which sets up the need, at some point, for philosophical/intellectual confrontations (9th house SN/3rd house NN). In essence, the Soul must learn to speak his or her own natural truth, and be who he or she naturally is, within any relationship that is formed. in this way, liberation from the past patterns allready described can be accomplished, and the individual can develop his or her own natural identity and voice that allows the Soul's innate wisdom that has been attained to be expressed (Polarity point in Aries, NN in the 3rd house).

Bradley, What I can say about your questions is that the 9th house from an EA point of view correlates with the need to understand our connection to the universe in a metaphysical/cosmological/philosophical standpoint. This is why is correlates to the nature of belief systems, and also to natural law. The inherent problem within this archetype is to create generalizations, or promote your own beliefs as the total truth for everyone (it has been called the billy Grahm archetype).

As Rad as stated, the Capricorn archetype correlates to the phenomena of judgement (cultural rights and wrongs, taboos. etc). The point within this is to examine the nature of the judgements that are formed (i.e-is it based on a natural system or on man made beliefs that condition our judgements as to what is right and what is wrong). Self righteousness is a distortion of this archetype. In other words, we do not need religion to validate what is intrinsically right and wrong (based on natural law).
I hope this is clear, and if it is not please let me know and I will clarify.   

[Linda]

Deva,
Thanks for your clarification!
It's all making more sense now.
This chart practice is invaluable.

[Rad]

Ari,
Excellent .. really excellent ....

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is the next paragraph true for a first stage individuated soul?

all 7th house pluto souls are interested in accepting and understanding what makes another person's reality what it is. as this soul comes more into their own mental liberation, they will find more acceptance and peace with people who have radically different belief systems. they will understand that there's a reason why uncle believes they way he does- thus the ability to simultaneously respect where he is at, and wholeheartedly disagree. in this process, allowing anger to occur as a natural response to being treated unfairly is important. being comfortable with expressing their natural outrage at certain ideas implies they are not afraid of being rejected.

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Yes, this is so, so true.


Rad

[Rad]

Bradley,

Thanks Michelle, Ari Moshe, Rad, and all.

I've been thinking about this concept of judgement that I brought in on a recent attempt-especially in regards to:  Where did this concept come from for me?
My main conclusions are that I carry a belief that Sagittarius and Jupiter have a shadow achetype of being high-minded and self righteous and then applied this to the 9th and....etc.
This is great reprogramming and learning application.
Have you seen this as a common mis-interpretation of this 9th s.n. achetype?

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Yes, I have seen this. And, in a way, it's correct because any time we decide to 'believe' in something, as in beliefs of any kind, those 'beliefs' imply an underlying philosophy of life. A philosophy of life that are then a pile of beliefs generated by that philosophy, whatever it is which of course includes various religions, are themselves JUDGMENTS about the nature of the cosmos, creation, the PHENOMENA OF LIFE itself. So when any of us orientates to any beliefs/ philosophies/ religions we have in fact made a judgment about what the nature of life is: what the nature of the manifested creation is. And we can then 'judge' others according to our particular belief system and the various moralities and ethics that emanate from them.

In the example we are using, however, i.e. a Soul just evolving into the individuated state with the S.Node in the 9th, 7th House Pluto, this would not be the case because it is so new, relatively speaking. Thus, the Soul is questioning more than concluding anything. Once we arrive at conclusions then the issue of the judgments thing can exist.

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It is also interesting that Libra is associated with desicion/judgement calls, and often the scales, justice, and the judge are all grouped with the archetype.

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This is the natural link to Aries, Cancer, Libra and Capricorn: the natural Cardinal Cross in total.

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Can anyone speak to this regarding the perspective of evolutionary astrology and a 7th house pluto?
It is my understanding that we are talking about 7th house pluto's as having to face a lot of desicion around relationship, which is different than coming in with judgements.

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Once we embrace the Cardinal Cross then we do see that we indeed make 'judgments' about other people in terms of their reality, Capricorn, the values and beliefs that are the basis of another's reality, and the 'decisions', 7th House, we make in terms of how we are going to relate, 7th House, to others in general, and the decisions we make to have in are life or not, and why, the judgments about their reality, and specifically who we want in our lives as intimate others.

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This concept ties in with everyone's postings as to this individual (pluto 7/sn 9) having to face a lot of desicions revolving around beliefs and ideas that are incountered through relationships.

Rad

[Rad]

Linda

7th house Pluto - 9th house SN - beginning of 1st stage individuated


This individual will cease to feel "normal" in the mainstream of society - and this estrangement will be aggravated by his South Node in the 9th.  He will try to compensate for this sense of alienation by trying to appear normal, by following a mainstream religion, or by going to university and undertaking a course of study that perhaps his parents would approved of, or by undertaking normal kinds of work, or by undertaking what is expected of him in his particular culture.  Since his core orientation to life is the need for relationships, he may at first try to conform to the consensus idea of what relationships are about, or be involved in relationships that appear to be "normal" in his culture.

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Yes..............

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Depending on his culture, even while "living a lie" he will continue to be searching for truth and knowledge, from deep within and without, through higher learning, books, workshops, and of course seeking out partners of like-mind to unite with him in his search for truth.  He will progressively distance himself from the consensus, but because he is at the very beginning of the 1st stage individuated, this progression could very well take many lifetimes.  To some degree, it is unlikely that he will actualize individualistic work.

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Yes .................

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Since he has just entered the beginning of the 1st stage individuated, he has also taken a new step in his soul development.  He could be karmically blocked from relating to others or to society, so therefore relationships could be approached in distorted or dysfunctional ways which relate to his Pluto 7th.  This non-involvement with society could attract others similar to himself who are alienated from society, drifters, misfits, travellers, multi-cultural people, etc.  He could take refuge in his own cherished beliefs and look down upon others in a self-righteous kind of way.

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No, this would not occur at this point in the individuals evolution. What you have written could apply to a Soul in the middle of the 2nd Stage Individuated DEPENDING ON OTHER FACTORS that are not part of the current symbolism that we are using: Pluto in the 7th, S.Node in the 9th.

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The karmic history or signature of the early 1st stage individuated + 7th house Pluto + 9th house SN shows how the desire and need for relationships has been fulfilled in the past.  The evolutionary impulse of the 7th house Pluto is relatively new.  His prior life soul intention was to learn lessons of equality and balance in relationships and the SN 9th describes the conscious mode of operation.  He has a compulsive need to be involved in relationship, to unite his life with another in order to feel whole, that reflects his values and beliefs based on his idea of the truth.  He will interpret natural laws according to his early 1st stage individuated evolutionary condition.  He is searching for relationships that support the formulation of a comprehensive philosophical belief system. 

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Yes...................

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He forms relationships through ideas that are not well-formed mixed in with consensus ideas of what relationships should be about. He will progressively become alienated with the mainstream ideas because they will not live up to his intuitive understanding of the truth of what relationships are about.  He will eventually break free from stereotypical-type partners whom the mainstream would approve of, and pursue relationships that reflect his need for ongoing evolution and freedom.

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Yes................

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He fulfils his 7th house desires by developing social values by interacting with a wide variety of people with whom he can share, compare and evaluate his ideas (which are probably quite dogmatic at the early 1st stage individuated).

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No, not dogmatic at this point of evolution.

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Due to the mutability factor, he would seek a variety of relationships because of his need for freedom and expansion.  It is likely that he will debate and argue and try to convince others as to the "right" way, "his way", or the "only way" to the truth.  Because of prior life identification with his own beliefs for security reasons, he will attract these confrontations with others. 

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No, not at this point of evolution. This could occur later on as the Soul gets ever closer to the 2nd Stage individuated which means it can occur towards the end of the 1st stage individuated.

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The type of relationship that he attracts could be a traditional teacher-student one in a mainstream institution in order to expand his knowledge.  He would attract powerful teacher-types who he felt held all the answers, and who he believed could help him in his intense search.  The seeking of relationships through being a student is an old pattern;  he could attract karmic relationships to past teachers or students.  He could be the model student who plays back the right answers to the teacher, but progressively learns to think for himself, his true beliefs leaking through.  As the feeling of alienation increases, he will seek the freedom to find teachers (or partners) who reflect the new growth.  Transformation occurs via emotional shocks experienced in his friendships, relationships, and teacher-student relationships.  He could also have the ability to take in new information via osmosis.  Through Pluto's unearthing of hidden talents, he may discover new capacities within himself.  For example, he may discover latent teaching skills that could be applied in an individualized way.

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Yes...............

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As he has a compelling need to discover who he is through others, he could become overly dependent on outside sources as a means of defining himself.  He will absorb the different realities and different belief systems of others, so there is a great variety of stuff to sort through so as to integrate into his comprehensive belief system.  He will begin to be exposed to new information that is foreign to his previous education and culture. 

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Yes.

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He will unconsciously defend his old beliefs based on the past for security reasons, and face confrontations.

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No, the person will be throwing off those old beliefs as quickly as possible.

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As he continues to search and explore, he may very well have times when he is a loner.  He finds it frustrating trying to express his intuitive knowledge and this reinforces his sense of alienation.  He may not stay in one place or commit to one relationship long enough, but because his personal power and security lie in relationships, he will seek them out again.

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Yes.

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Because of the compulsive need to compare and discover who he is through others, he may become attracted to very powerful, self-assured people who he perceives hold all the answers and who can guide him.  In order to feel a validation of the self, he would adopt the partner's views and beliefs since his own individuality is undeveloped. He may put the partner (or teacher figure) up on a pedestal, and constantly refer to the partner for validation of his belief system.  The imbalances, deficiencies and distortions in this type of relationship will produce internal and external confrontations, resulting in the termination of the relationship by either person, or other cataclysmic events that bring about reflection and examination of the difficulties, the main difficulty being inequality in the relationship, or losing oneself to the other.

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Yes...............

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Alternatively, he could play the dominant (or teacher) role in the relationship making the partner or student become utterly dependent on him due to the learned ability to deeply understand the other's reality or to understand the deep need for self-definition through a philosophical belief system.  He will have a need to convert others or the tendency to indoctrinate rather than teach, because of his own need for emotional security.  This can lead to domination, the abuse of power and inequality in the relationship.

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This COULD occur later on in this state, but not at the beginning.

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He is realizing that he has a need to be needed, and a need to give. He is motivated to give his ideological viewpoint as somehow the "answer". He will learn that by giving to another, his own needs will be met.  He is learning to understand the reality of the other, so as to give them what they truly need, and it may not necessarily be of a philosophical nature.  Once he learns to give, he will be able to give generously, while developing his own inner balance.

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Yes.

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1st house Pluto polarity / 3rd house NN
Through emotional shocks and philosophical and intellectual confrontations with others, he will be forced to develop the 3rd house NN.  He will learn that there are many paths to the truth and that each person has their own path. Through comparison with different points of view, he will realize the weaknesses in his own beliefs.  He will be in a better position to disseminate the knowledge that is inherent in his nature to others via the written or spoken word.  In order that his message is understood by others, he will be forced to communicate in a logical way and to improve his communication skills.  Education will transform into mutual sharing of knowledge and information rather than conversion, preaching or indoctrination.  Relationships will transform into equal roles, with give and take, rather than playing dominant/submissive roles.  As the 1st house Pluto polarity is developed and expressed, he will progressively learn that the answers lie within himself;  he will minimize his dependency on powerful people for self-validation;  self-discovery will become his passion;  he will follow new adventures and new paths that lead to learning more about himself;  he will balance his need for relationships with his need for time alone;  he will develop freedom within his relationships;  he will learn to trust in his own decisions;  he will become self-motivating, and he will develop his individuality more fully.

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Yes, excellent.

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Linda

Rad