checking my understanding of the Evolutionary States/Conditions

[Steve]

hi Heather

Also I wonder about this eliminating separating desires. I've never quite gotten this.  I thought the desire to separate was a natural state of the soul, to grow and evolve, in order to enrich creation, to be creation.
Why do I want to eliminate my urge to grow? I know I've not got this concept yet. Any help on this would be welcome, this feels important at this first stage spiritual.

I think you are confusing, or misinterpreting, several things.  

1)  Souls are not here to enrich creation.  Humans like to believe that is true but its the root thought of much pain and delusion.  We are here to evolve our way back to Source, period.  

2)  Eliminating separating desires is not eliminating the urge to grow, it is the essence of where the urge to grow is leading, to move from falseness and delusion to truth.

All Souls are created with a dual desire nature.  If the only desire within a Soul was to merge back with Source, Souls would remain in creation about 40 nanoseconds and be out of here.  What would the point of separating be?  For some reason we can not be aware of while encased in human form, God/Goddess want this creation thing to exist, for a long long time by our human time-relative standards.  We can speculate endlessly on the Why, however the truth of that is self-evident, from the survival instinct that keeps us here, to the desire to separate and try many things.

There is the point - how many things you have ever done to enrich creation, to put it in the language you used, have ended with your realization you are now tired of what you were once excited about.  It did not turn out the way you envisioned it.  Even though people or the world may have been affected by what you did, the world continues on pretty much as it had been before you did anything.  You started out young, you grow old, the wheel keeps spinning, people keep doing what they are still doing.

The reason separating desires get exhausted is because not one of them will ever live up to the initial thought or promise, in the end.  This leads, at times, to Saturnian experiences of futility, frustration, resignation, depression, and/or to Neptunian experiences of disillusionment - "is this all there is?", "how could what started so pure become so distorted".  

Slowly slowly slowly the Soul starts to realize the only lasting permanent unchanging thing, the one that can always be counted on, is reached through this inner state.  That is what is called returning to Source.  We are wired to resist that very experience almost with all our might.  That is the basis of the dual desire nature.    The only reason to exhaust a separating desire is when one realizes it does not live up to what we thought it could be, does not bring the ultimate satisfaction we thought it might.  You are not intended to give up separating desires because some metaphysical system told you that was the point of life.  You give them up, often with much pain and effort, to free yourself from the hold of something that simply is not bringing you the satisfaction you desired.  It is no longer bringing you where you want to go.  And even so it is often difficult to let go of it, to start again in some new direction.  

Eventually, after eons of times, the Soul starts noticing that pretty much EVERYTHING it starts winds up like that, eventually feeling more or less the same.  This throws the Soul into a spiritual crisis of sorts.  What is it supposed to do?   At some point it starts remembering it is actually here in human form to fulfill certain tasks, functions, learn certain lessons, that are necessary for its ongoing evolution.  It has the free will to (Pluto) resist the consequences of that conclusion.  But it also starts experiencing that even though fulfilling some of those things is not always fun, the inner feeling that comes from aligning itself with these intended directions and actions is far more fulfilling than the feeling that comes, long term, from doing all the things it thinks it has wanted to do, most of which eventually wind up feeling quite different than had been anticipated.  And thus the Soul learns that its ultimate happiness comes from following intended will rather than its personal creative whims.  Thus the Soul CHOOSES to give up separating desires, as it learns those separating desires do not bring it lasting satisfaction. And that is the ONLY reason one would choose to give up separating desires.  Because they are not bringing you where you want to do.

What function does the persecution and torture serve to the soul that is spiritualizing and returning to God?

This is basically a function of living in a patriarchal reality.  It reflects the distortions contained within that reality, where those who speak truth and try to live truth are punished for it.  The bigger question is why is it necessary to have a patriarchal reality in the 1st place?  And I don't know whether anyone can truly answer that question.   What is evident is we have been wounded by its existence.

Some of the lessons potentially are about courage and truthfulness.  It is much easier in the outer sense to shut the mouth, to turn away from speaking and living truth.  Because then your life is made easier.  But then, what dies inside when these compromises are made?  Is it better to remain alive knowing you are living a lie, or face the consequences and speak the truth?   There is no one size fits all answer for that.  Ultimately a Soul is here to complete its mission.  No one can judge the choices it makes.  It has to live with itself.  The answers are not always clear.  

Some of the consequences of traumatizing experiences like these are that Soul is again thrown back on itself, to contemplate its values, it meaning, its purpose.  Why did these things happen?  And again, to see the folly of devoting a life simply to pursuing separating desires as these bring no lasting satisfaction.

And yet, it can take many many lives of experiences of this nature for the Soul to finally grasp the deeper significance.  We really underestimate how long this process takes, and how difficult parts of it are.  There are good reasons why only a small percentage of the population is in the Spiritual state.  In many ways its the last place a Soul wants to go, and many only go there when all other options have proven not to work - that is the root of the Spiritual crisis I mentioned.
Steve

[mountainheather]

Steve and Adina, thank you both. 

I am determined to understand these basic principles, and your patience and generosity is appreciated. I have to read the responses over and over before they sink in, some of this is still not resonating for me, but I don't know how to make it into a question yet, more absorbing and reflecting to do.  Thanks again, Heather

[Elen]

I wouldn't phrase it as "beginning to care what GOD thinks of what it is doing", because I don't think that is really the way that God/Goddess look at us.  They are not sitting there smiling or frowning at Souls based on a Soul's behaviors.   It is much more a matter of becoming aware of the natural intentions for all Souls and that specific Soul, and gradually aligning one's personal will with those intentions.  The reference point becomes more of knowing what one is intended to be doing, and committing to doing it.

Hi Steve,
I wanted to try to voice my responses as a way of clarifying for myself my thinking so that I can better understand it.  If you have any responses, I welcome them.
With regard to the above paragraph, I see where you're coming from and it is finally becoming clear to me that my questions are being asked from a SUBJECTIVE perspective, ie, the perspective of the 3rd ind/1st spiritual - and especially from my own subjective experiences.  The 1st spiritual (as a child) who is hiding in consensus reality (and what I mean by this is the 1st spiritual who chooses consensus individuals for parents), for example, wouldn't necessarily understand - yet - how God/Goddess is looking at us... correct?  Thinking of those who are hiding due to past life persecutions, this person, I think (I'm drawing here on my own experiences) would be primarily concerned with not being found out.  S/he would also be subject to the traumas of a religious culture that preaches that "God" DOES look down on her and judge her negatively.  As a child, she wouldn't have defenses against this point of view.  This also explains to me why I'm making the connection (below) between feeling small and conforming.  The 1st spiritual in hiding, I was thinking, was MAKING HERSELF SMALL so as not to bring upon her more persecution, and she was doing this instinctually, not consciously.  It would only be later, at whatever point s/he could escape (physicall/emotionally) from this consensus environment that s/he might be able to re-orient her perspective away from the condemning religious perspective that s/h was steeped in as a child.  So I'm thinking that while the ultimate trajectory for 1st spiritual is towards the perspective you identify, perhaps it does not always start out that way....?

This question arises in part out of the statement that 1st spiritual, like 3rd individuated, knows it is different and isn't interested in conforming.  Yet 1st spiritual feels small while 3rd individuated does not necessarily feel this way.  I am also thinking about this from the perspective of skipped steps and hiding - the 1st spiritual that hides in consensus reality, not having a clue who s/he is and not understanding why no one is seeing him/her - the naivete of the child - assuming s/he will be loved for who s/he is.

I'm not clear why you feel that feeling small makes a difference in terms of not interested in conforming.  Its simply wanting to live from its natural nature, to drop conditioned programmings it has picked up that pull it away from its natural nature. 

You are not going to find 1st stage spiritual hiding in consensus reality.  1st stage spiritual is incapable of hiding in consensus reality.  It may not always LIKE that it is incapable of doing that hiding, none the less it can't.   It will also not feel it has no clue who it is - they do know who they are, that is the problem.

Here again I was asking from a subjective perspective.  BECAUSE the 1st spiritual child was not seen - ie, not given a mirror back as to who s/he was, s/he would not have developed the capacity to subjectively know who s/he was in a CONSCIOUS way.  Again, it would only be later, when s/he "escaped" that s/he would develop subjective awareness of who s/he is and that, looking back s/h could then say that, based on OBJECTIVE indications, s/he in fact DID always "know".  Does this make sense?  In my own life this has played out in slow peeling layers - 1st with regard to my sexual orientation, and only after years of struggle and blind searching, in terms of my "spiritual" identity.  So my overall question re: the distinctinon between 3rd ind/1st spiritaul was arising out of my own subjective struggle with all this and trying to understand how to make sense of that in terms of the EA stages - how to better understand them from the perspective of my own experience.  And again, my own experience with "smallness", until recently, has always seemed to derive from the strong desire not to be seen due to fear, but also a wrestling with ego (in the sense of desiring to be big, yet somehow knowing that desiring to be big is a hindrance....  I was thinking that 3rd ind possibly doesn't have this beef with ego, and that might be one distinction between 3rd ind and 1st spiritual... 

They may not understand how different from everyone else they are - that would relate to the feeling of not being seen.   They are typically going to have many experiences from early childhood on showing them they are NOT going to be loved for who they are.  That in fact almost no one will have any idea who they are.  Those experiences, while not fun, are designed by the Soul to throw that person back on them self, to be forced to explore their inner reality more deeply.

Steve

[Elen]

Hi All,


I just wanted to add to something Ellen asked  



I think I am finally beginning to grasp the nature of some of my own confusion with regard to this topic. It seems to have to do with a failure to grasp the inherent difference between 3rd stage individuated and 1st stage spiritual.  It is my understanding that 1st stage spiritual feels small and that this feeling of smallness is, if I have understood Adina correctly, because the person in this stage is beginning to understand itself in relation to God.  And with this new awareness, the Soul feels utterly small - like a grain of sand.  Is it correct to say that 3rd stage individuated does NOT feel any of this smallness? And then is the reason it does not feel this smallness because the Soul in this stage has not yet understood itself - grasped the magnitude of - its relation to the Divine?  So then can you say that there is a shift between 3rd individuated and 1st spiritual - the former not caring what anyone else (ie, its reference point is the rest of humanity) thinks of what it is doing while the latter shifts into beginning to care what GOD thinks of what it is doing (ie, its reference point is God, not people)?  



Steve answered this pretty well, but my addition is from my observation and correlation is.. I am an artist and astrologer, some of my clients are 3rd stage individuated and so were some of my teachers in art school.... The thing I have observed over the years is that 3rd stage thinks it knows the universe, they really feel that they have hit the end and know what it is....  Its a Leo archetype...  1st stage spiritual knows they don't know....Transition between 3rd individuated and 1st the humbling process has already taken place so there are inklings of feeling small... The only smallness the 3rd indvuated feels is the deep knowing that the system does not support them.  But their ego blows right through that.    hope that helps....


pam

Hi Pam

Yes, this helps a ton.  Thanks.

Ellen

[Steve]

Hi Ellen

Thank you for what you said, and the vulnerability and honesty with which you said it.   I will try to answer in kind.

The 1st spiritual (as a child) who is hiding in consensus reality (and what I mean by this is the 1st spiritual who chooses consensus individuals for parents)"¦

If I understand correctly what you are saying, you might be placing too harsh a judgment on yourself by believing that the reason you had consensus parents was you trying to hide in consensus reality.   There are many reasons a Soul could pick consensus state parents.  A few examples - past karma with the parents;  previous lives where the Soul was buried, so to speak, by consensus, and the Soul had to symbolically recreate those conditions so that different choices could be made this time.

wouldn't necessarily understand - yet - how God/Goddess is looking at us... correct?

I would describe the way you previously phrased it, about concern about what God was thinking about that person, as an expression "of a religious culture that preaches that "God" DOES look down on her and judge her negatively."   The Soul would in fact understand within itself this was distortion of actual reality.  Due to patriarchal religious conditionings it would have forgotten or distorted what it already knew.  That is not the same as not already understanding it.

Thinking of those who are hiding due to past life persecutions, this person, I think (I'm drawing here on my own experiences) would be primarily concerned with not being found out.

Yes

S/he would also be subject to the traumas of a religious culture that preaches that "God" DOES look down on her and judge her negatively.  As a child, she wouldn't have defenses against this point of view.  This also explains to me why I'm making the connection (below) between feeling small and conforming.

yes

The 1st spiritual in hiding, I was thinking, was MAKING HERSELF SMALL so as not to bring upon her more persecution, and she was doing this instinctually, not consciously.

Consider it might be the other way around - The Soul is already feeling small.  It creates a situation in which that inner sense of feeling small can manifest as exactly that, which further reinforces the sense of feeling small.  Remember that the whole point of the feeling small is to enforce a sense of humility.  Thus in some ways the entire circumstance could have been created as a way to humiliate, thus further humble, the Soul.  This is Virgo stuff, and 1st stage Spiritual is a Virgo-like archetype.

It would only be later, at whatever point s/he could escape (physicall/emotionally) from this consensus environment that s/he might be able to re-orient her perspective away from the condemning religious perspective that s/h was steeped in as a child.  So I'm thinking that while the ultimate trajectory for 1st spiritual is towards the perspective you identify, perhaps it does not always start out that way....?

Consider what I said about the necessity to humble the Soul.  Can you see, from that perspective, how such experiences could further that intention?  Even though they were very difficult?  They lead later to that Soul remembering who it really is, in 1st stage spiritual. Again, it's a forgetting and later remembering of what is already known, not something new being learned.

Here again I was asking from a subjective perspective.  BECAUSE the 1st spiritual child was not seen - ie, not given a mirror back as to who s/he was, s/he would not have developed the capacity to subjectively know who s/he was in a CONSCIOUS way.  Again, it would only be later, when s/he "escaped" that s/he would develop subjective awareness of who s/he is and that, looking back s/h could then say that, based on OBJECTIVE indications, s/he in fact DID always "know".  Does this make sense?

Yes, but if you look closely at what you said, the Soul already knew who it was.  The child just did not remember it was the Soul.  Further necessary humbling occurred as the result of the experiences, by the time the adult again recalled its actual identity.

In my own life this has played out in slow peeling layers - 1st with regard to my sexual orientation, and only after years of struggle and blind searching, in terms of my "spiritual" identity.  So my overall question re: the distinctinon between 3rd ind/1st spiritaul was arising out of my own subjective struggle with all this and trying to understand how to make sense of that in terms of the EA stages - how to better understand them from the perspective of my own experience.  And again, my own experience with "smallness", until recently, has always seemed to derive from the strong desire not to be seen due to fear, but also a wrestling with ego (in the sense of desiring to be big, yet somehow knowing that desiring to be big is a hindrance....  I was thinking that 3rd ind possibly doesn't have this beef with ego, and that might be one distinction between 3rd ind and 1st spiritual...

   I would say that slow peeling layers in pretty much the norm.  Most such Souls have been deeply traumatized down through patriarchal reality.  The recovery from the traumas is necessarily slow, gentle, steady, nurturing.

   It is possible the desire to be big could be a carryover from 3rd stage individuated, but it is also possible (I don't have your birth chart thus don't know how it is put together) that the desire to be big was an act of compensation (Jupiter/Sag) trying to make up for the perceived smallness, lacks, inadequacies.  Again I feel its important to be careful not to judge yourself too harshly. 
   The survival instinct is the most primal instinct in human nature.  A person will do what they need to do to survive.  If one is feeling very small, the instinct to make one's self feel larger could be a survival strategy.  You might be correct about it being a holdover from 3rd stage indiv.  Just saying, other causes are possible.
Hope this is helpful
Steve

[mountainheather]

Thank you Ellen and Steve for your latest posts. 
It occurred to me after reading them, that by looking at the type of separating desires a person has and acts on can be a clue to their evolutionary state... is this and on track thought? Thanks, Heather

[Steve]

Hi Heather

Thank you Ellen and Steve for your latest posts. 
It occurred to me after reading them, that by looking at the type of separating desires a person has and acts on can be a clue to their evolutionary state...

yes, definitely.  also look at the motivations behind the separating desires, the ways they are actualized, and the attitudes with which they are actualized.

[Wendy]

Consider what I said about the necessity to humble the Soul.  Can you see, from that perspective, how such experiences could further that intention?  Even though they were very difficult?  They lead later to that Soul remembering who it really is, in 1st stage spiritual. Again, it's a forgetting and later remembering of what is already known, not something new being learned

But why?  Why go through all that if the soul, once remembered, knows who it really is?  I realize from my own experiences and soul evolution how much the difficulties have helped me grow, but some part of me still questions.  If I was happy as a child, at least initially, and remembered my connection to God, why would my soul need to have these humbling experiences.  I thought I was humble as a child, then wham! trauma hits...I'm being dramatic here, just to make a point.

All this can be very confusing for a SN in Sagittarius, no wonder its taken me so long to figure this out.  With many past life memories based in disempowerment, trauma, abuse--smallness and additional memories of being a healer and living in times of the matriarch too--very complex to piece together, thus how would one know? 

Very funny all this.  I had a session with JWG in 1996 after I found the Pluto books.  I didn't know he had a school though. 

The Virgo soul theme of humility is intense (Uranus Pluto Venus opp Saturn square nodes here).

[Steve]

Hi Wendy

But why?  Why go through all that if the soul, once remembered, knows who it really is?  I realize from my own experiences and soul evolution how much the difficulties have helped me grow, but some part of me still questions.  If I was happy as a child, at least initially, and remembered my connection to God, why would my soul need to have these humbling experiences.  I thought I was humble as a child, then wham! trauma hits...I'm being dramatic here, just to make a point.

This is just the way life works, Wendy.  You can verify that through your daily experience.  Even what you wrote validates what I said.  You were happy and humble as a child, and wham, trauma hits.  Who, from our vantage point, can say why.   None the less, it happens over and over, to most if not all people. 

Actually we are here, like the wave on the ocean, to play a small role in the ongoing evolution of the Soul that created us.  That is the only reason we are here.  We think we are here to be happy, to self-express, to create a comfortable life, to raise children, etc.   And many people can accomplish much of that.   But by the time someone is in the 1st spiritual state, if not before, those aims are not really going to satisfy, and attempts to live only for those things tend to not work out.  That can be hard to take at times.  Some experiences a Soul needs for its evolution are not ones that are fun from the perspective of being a human being.  Its just built in.  Who can say exactly why.

This is the way human existence was created, by Creator.  Those who have had the "big experiences" report that from the vantage point of Creator, it all makes sense and has beauty and purpose.  But few of us live from that vantage point, and from the one we do live by a lot of this is difficult.  What I keep seeing is we are continually thrown back on ourselves, to remember again we are not here just to enjoy ourselves, but to learn lessons of surrender, compassion, service, carrying out the life purpose we came here for, etc. 

All this can be very confusing for a SN in Sagittarius, no wonder its taken me so long to figure this out.  With many past life memories based in disempowerment, trauma, abuse--smallness and additional memories of being a healer and living in times of the matriarch too--very complex to piece together, thus how would one know? 

seems like one learns or remembers through trial and error.  doesn't it?

The Virgo soul theme of humility is intense (Uranus Pluto Venus opp Saturn square nodes here).

Then you can see why you've had those experiences.  They may not be fun but they are pretty effective.  And that basically is what the Soul is interested in, learning the lessons.  To go back to EA, the more intense the chart, the more aspects to Pluto, the more retrograde planets, the more Scorpio/8th house stuff, the more the Soul has set the present life up to evolve.

Out of all the pain, another quality develops - compassion.  Empathy for what others have to endure. 

[Dhyana]

PS.  An Authentic Courage is building ...Soul Courage Seeds ~

Deepest Gratitude,
Dhyana

[Wendy]

Actually we are here, like the wave on the ocean, to play a small role in the ongoing evolution of the Soul that created us.  That is the only reason we are here.  We think we are here to be happy, to self-express, to create a comfortable life, to raise children, etc.   And many people can accomplish much of that.   But by the time someone is in the 1st spiritual state, if not before, those aims are not really going to satisfy, and attempts to live only for those things tend to not work out...to remember again we are not here just to enjoy ourselves, but to learn lessons of surrender, compassion, service, carrying out the life purpose we came here for...the more intense the chart, the more aspects to Pluto, the more retrograde planets, the more Scorpio/8th house stuff, the more the Soul has set the present life up to evolve.

Out of all the pain, another quality develops - compassion.  Empathy for what others have to endure.  

Thanks for the response Steve.  My questions were stemming from wondering why souls aren't given a EA descriptive sheet of sorts to at least direct us to which stage of evolution we signed up for in given lifetimes.  

Surrender, service and compassion are definitely the most important things in my life.  My ego and others have tried to sway me, saying I was sabotaging myself which has been a theme (Virgo), but in truth my soul is aiming for a different trajectory which I now understand and therefore need not give guilt any power or continue to compare myself or feel others who act as if they are in service, yet making loads of money seems to be the agenda.

I have 7 aspects to my natal Pluto, 8th house planets, lots of progressed Scorpio, and a retrograde signature.

Thanks Steve for your time and attention to my questions.

Blessings,
Wendy

[Steve]

My questions were stemming from wondering why souls aren't given a EA descriptive sheet of sorts to at least direct us to which stage of evolution we signed up for in given lifetimes.  

Think what life would be like if parents received an EA reading for their children, and knew enough and cared enough to guide the child in its intended directions.  I do a fair number of readings for young parents who are friends of mine, and they find it extremely helpful.  (It also explains why in some cases there are certain inherent conflicts between a young child and a parent.  From that clarity, strategies can be developed for relieving some of the stressful elements).

This is the power of EA.  Those of us who resonate with it have the capacity to positively influence lives with it, life long.  That is the main reason this website and message board exist.
Steve

[Wendy]

Yes, that is my interest as well, especially working with parents and child...

If evolutionary progress of soul is slow because of patriarchal society? and if we were in a progressive evolutionary society, would evolution occur more readily? and not be so painfully archaic?  seems brutal and doesn't have to be extreme.

Also does the earth have a soul and if so what state is she in? same for our galaxy?

Hope my questions aren't too far out!

[Elen]

Hi Steve,

Thanks a million for your responses.  What a confusing journey this is... I appreciate your patient efforts to help me see things in a new way.

Your words re: humility really struck a chord.  I DO see how that is the Soul's intention - how the Soul feeling small came first, and then came the circumstances to reinforce. 

Jupiter is indeed a factor in my chart (squaring the nodes, Sag is on my IC conjuncting my Cap Sun).  And indeed "inflated pride" has been a default throughout much of my life and, like alcohol for an alcoholic, something I always have to be aware of.  I am still trying to find my footing without it.

Peace,
Ellen

[Elen]

Actually we are here, like the wave on the ocean, to play a small role in the ongoing evolution of the Soul that created us.  That is the only reason we are here.  We think we are here to be happy, to self-express, to create a comfortable life, to raise children, etc.   And many people can accomplish much of that.   But by the time someone is in the 1st spiritual state, if not before, those aims are not really going to satisfy, and attempts to live only for those things tend to not work out.  That can be hard to take at times.  Some experiences a Soul needs for its evolution are not ones that are fun from the perspective of being a human being.  Its just built in.  Who can say exactly why.

I don't mean to be impertinent here, but can I just say "MONEY"... What a nightmare!  But I'm curious about this.  The old ways/motivations don't sustain.  Yet there is still the need to make a living.  Because the old ways/motivations don't sustain, it is hard (it is for me, anyway) to channel one's energies into the task of making a living.  I am saying this from the perspective of having worked in the health care industry for many years and seeing how the profit motive has really become the motivating factor.  We - those of us doing the frontline work (I work as a nursing asst/medical secretary) - are really struggling.  I actually finally gave my notice recently and will soon be unemployed.  At the same time I understand that life is taking me in a new direction, which I have not yet discovered yet.  I also recognize that it is easy to let fear rule the day.  Anyway, curious how others have reconciled this.

Peace,
Ellen